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Goodpain Podcast: From Weapon to Elder – Kyle Quincey (former NHL, Do Good Ranch) on Authentic Masculinity and Transition – Self-Worth, Play, & Eldership | Candid Conversation. Underdog Wisdom. (S02E04)
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About This Episode
What happens to the gladiator when the arena doors close for good? In this deep dive interview, former NHL defenseman Kyle Quincey joins Tyler and Jeremy for a raw excavation of life after professional sports. Kyle shares his journey from being a "weapon" in the high-stakes world of Canadian hockey to finding authentic masculinity through service and community.
We explore the intense pressure of a "credentialist" career where you are only as good as your last shift and the toll this takes on mens mental health. Kyle opens up about his battle with depression during his time in Detroit, the reality of sustaining 15+ concussions, and the "sobering" realization that in professional systems, you are often viewed more as a product than a person. This conversation is a call for men to move from isolation into "earned community," especially when facing life's deepest valleys.Today we sit down with our friend.
Timestamps
- 00:00 – The Approval Trap: Growing up in rural Canada and the drive to be a "pro".
- 12:30 – Training the Weapon: The brutal reality of junior hockey and fighting at 17.
- 25:15 – The Flow State: Finding a "worshipful" sense of peace in the heat of competition.
- 38:40 – The Product Mindset: Managing concussions and mens mental health while protecting your job.
- 52:20 – A Father’s Valley: Navigating his son’s cancer diagnosis and the void of community.
- 1:05:00 – Accountability Networks: Rebuilding the Colorado Avalanche Alumni Association.
- 1:18:30 – Do Good Ranch: Transitioning from "Gladiator" to "Elder" through nature and community.
Key Takeaways
- The Utility Trap: When your worth is based solely on results, you become a "cog in the wheel" that is easily discarded once broken.
- Isolation vs. Solitude: Maturity involves seeking "sacred solitude" to find the true self, while avoiding the toxic "void" of isolation.
- Accountability is a Gift: In pro sports and military life, your life depends on the man next to you; finding that same "tribe" is essential after retirement.
- Earned Community: True belonging isn't bought; it is built through shared struggle, vulnerability, and the courage to be seen.
- The Power of Play: Even in adulthood, returning to "play" (without a price tag) is essential for maintaining a healthy spirit.
About Kyle Quincey
Kyle Quincey is a former professional hockey player with a 17-year career, including over 500 games in the NHL for teams like the Detroit Red Wings and Colorado Avalanche. Today, he is the founder and operator of Do Good Ranch, a retreat center dedicated to helping veterans, first responders, and athletes navigate transitions through education, community, and vision-centric healing
Do Good Ranch's mission is to provide a supportive space for personal growth and self-improvement through transformative retreat experiences. By reconnecting with nature and incorporating a variety of technologies, wellness modalities, and the wisdom of educated facilitators and elders, participants are empowered to enhance their mental, emotional, physical and spiritual well-being.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Good Pain' and Kyle Quincy
00:00:00
Speaker
you're getting picked apart about the smallest details, right? So it's never good enough. So then you bring that philosophy back to marriage or being a father, real life. People are just like, dude, why can't you just be happy?
00:00:14
Speaker
It's like, well, I was trained my whole life to be better. Always. Never, never good enough. I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to Good Pain, where we talk about life's true intensities without pretending they're easy solve.
00:00:29
Speaker
What if the things we're told to fix, optimize, or get over are actually where the real wisdom lives? Each week we gather for the kind of honest conversations you desire to be a part of more often about the relentless demands, the unexpected grief, the quiet victories, and everything between.
00:00:44
Speaker
Because maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't to limit the hard stuff, it's to find the good in it. Welcome to the conversation.
00:01:02
Speaker
In today's episode, we get to talk to my friend, Kyle Quincy, who is the owner and operator of Do Good Ranch. He's a former NHL hockey player.
00:01:13
Speaker
And I really enjoyed getting to sit down with Jeremy and share a conversation with Kyle because we cover a lot of ground. That's a follow-up to last week's session where we talked about play and what that looked like, but we explore it from a different angle this time, beginning with Kyle coming up through Canadian hockey and eventually joining the and NHL.
00:01:37
Speaker
Eventually, that time had to come to an end. And what do we do after we move on from something that defined us for such a long time?
Kyle's Hockey Career and Mental Health
00:01:47
Speaker
Kyle talks about exploring this question of when am I good enough and being a part of profession where you're in the top fraction of a percent of performers that you will never be good enough. You're always competing. And I think this is an intense crucible that we may not be able to identify with that level of competition and intensity whatsoever.
00:02:11
Speaker
But we do understand the themes. We understand that what we're asked to do as providers, that our pride is attached, that our self-worth can be attached to that.
00:02:22
Speaker
Kyle is kind enough to discuss how that led to his first confrontation with mental health issues involving depression. From there, we continue to explore worth being based on a system that demands results that you must produce.
00:02:38
Speaker
When that time for production comes to an end, how we will oftentimes find new ways to produce, new ways to compete. And that we can be called to step into a new role, a new role involving the sharing of wisdom, becoming an elder.
00:02:58
Speaker
But it's one that invites us to embrace the cycle of becoming. during the course of this conversation we explore the different ways that kyle has found to bump into himself and rediscover who he is we also discuss use of psychedelics and this is a big topic we are going to end up covering in a future episode we may even have kyle back on to discuss this even more specifically
00:03:29
Speaker
And what Kyle talks about is the use of psychedelics in a way that is vision centric, inward looking and therapeutic. We're not discussing the recreational use of these medicines.
00:03:42
Speaker
We're using them as a means that is much more akin to indigenous cultures and community use that brings people together in a way that allows us to break down our walls and explore what our interior is like together.
Do Good Ranch and Community Healing
00:03:58
Speaker
Kyle's mission specifically emphasizes professional athletes, first responders, veterans, as well as those who have historically been part of a very tight-knit professional community and have seen some intense life experiences that can only be understood in a real way by the brothers that stood next to them on the battlefield on the ice, or in rescuing people that are in emergent situations.
00:04:32
Speaker
This is his area of mission. And for those that are in these fields or adjacent fields that are looking for this kind of community, I encourage you to visit Do Good Ranch's website. We will provide that in the show notes and to reach out for help.
00:04:52
Speaker
Kyle is adamant that we need to reach out for help. We cannot go into a form of isolation. We talk about solitude in this episode. That is distinct and different from isolation.
00:05:07
Speaker
And unfortunately, we find too many men that find in isolation a void that they cannot help but stare into, then try to fill that void with things that are unhealthy, that are toxic.
00:05:23
Speaker
And we are happy to share Kyle's story here as an example and as a calling to doing this exploration, this excavation of self together.
00:05:41
Speaker
It goes back early to growing up in you know rural Canada, Ontario. Culturally, hockey was the um you know main sport and ah you know trying to win approval from you know parents and The easiest number one thing was to be a professional hockey player. Yeah.
00:06:03
Speaker
So um lived and breathed it since I was four or five years old. And I love the game. You know, i don't feel like I was forced, but, you know, doing a lot of the work I'm doing now, I can see that I was trying to win approval from my parents with sport. And it just so happened to be that I was built for it.
00:06:25
Speaker
I was designed for it. And I just kept getting better and better every year. And then at 14, I'm like, I can do this as a job. yeah And then everything just fell into place.
00:06:37
Speaker
And then I got to have an amazing career. And at 34, they asked me not to come back. But yeah, I was left with a body that was pretty broken, putting the pieces back together now and still in a lot of pain.
00:06:49
Speaker
But what an amazing job for those 17 years. Yeah, that's incredible. Did you have older siblings? I had a younger brother that was, he's a master electrician, owns his own company in Canada now. It's cool seeing him going through his process, but he was better than me for a long time growing up. And then he just saw the drive and what took to be at that level, yeah which a lot of people don't understand. And he's like, I'm not doing that.
00:07:13
Speaker
my dad told me like you can work hard early or you can work hard now right so i i decided to work hard early yeah and then the journey it continues so i'm still working hard but in a different way yeah that's right right so what set it off for your mom and dad that this was kind of an acceptable thing and this is what the value of canadian young men is like where was that coming from for your parents ah My dad was a goalie. He played ah you know at a high level. And it was just assumed, yeah i guess.
00:07:47
Speaker
Not to get too deep into my parents and stuff, but like I was looking for praise. I was looking for sure affection. um and not getting it just kind of imprinted the message that you had to do better. have to find other ways. yeah What was the balance like between loving the game and having a passion for it as an expression of you? And then also the approval and the recognition component of that. i think The approval part was like so ingrained at a subconscious level that I wasn't aware of it till recently.
00:08:18
Speaker
Growing up, it was a dream. I want to be on the TV. I want to move to the States. I want to chase my dream. I want to win a Stanley Cup. I want to play in the NHL. Yeah. And then all the perks that comes with that.
00:08:30
Speaker
And I was just so focused on that one dream. And then it just it happened. Not accomplishing that was never an option, you know, whatever it took. Mm-hmm. I lived and breathed it.
00:08:41
Speaker
Maybe even like 12, 13 is when like it's a job. Everything I did was to accomplish that goal. Did you leave home when you played junior hockey? Yeah, 16. 16. So those are formative years for young men and women, but you were living with a host family and all that? Yeah, my first host family was kind of a nightmare. I was very alone.
00:09:07
Speaker
um i was kind of to fend for myself. um I was eating a lot of grilled cheese, and it was a really rough you know couple once Wow. Other players living in the same house or no? That was the plan. Okay.
00:09:21
Speaker
And then. Didn't work out. Yeah. My one one roommate made the NHL an 18 year old. and That was it. Yeah. um They had horses and they decided to feed feed the horses more than me. so ge But I had an amazing teacher in high school and I asked if I could live with her okay and did. Wow.
00:09:39
Speaker
And then I got traded back to closer to the to my my parents. But yeah, moved in with a family there. Yeah. Yeah, ended up bouncing around for a couple more families and then said I'm gone to the States. And that happened when you were closer to 18? 16. Yeah, 16. And I got traded when I was 18. Yeah. To the Knights, is that right? So Knights, 16, 17. And then Miss Sugg Ice Dogs, 18, 19.
00:10:04
Speaker
So very much into the spectrum of what this thing is. lot of non-followers of hockey don't understand what junior
The Joy and Pressure of Professional Sports
00:10:10
Speaker
hockey is. I think they confuse it a lot with youth hockey. It's pro. Exactly right. And it's big business.
00:10:16
Speaker
Huge. I think people don't recognize that. And the pressure that you feel when you're involved with it is. I was on like a program to like, i had to fight every two weeks. Really? And they were training me to be a pro. Yeah. Right. And that the player I was like, I didn't want to fight.
00:10:31
Speaker
i wasn't very good at it. Sure. But I had to like pick guys at certain times of games. I got to fight this guy. That was the expectation. So you're not sleeping the night before. You're 17, playing against 20-year-olds.
00:10:42
Speaker
Big difference. Right. So was pretty intimidating, pretty scary ah coming in that league. When you're leaving that league, you're almost the alpha. Then you're going to the and NHL, right? Then you're the small fish. Starting over. Yeah.
00:10:56
Speaker
But yeah, 16 to 20 is a big jump. Huge. Yeah. So that was, ah you know, were playing in front of 10, 12,000 people in some of the rinks packed. You're a celebrity in high school.
00:11:09
Speaker
You're growing up quick. i right Like 16, 17 years old, like I coached some of the kids here and you're like, you're a kid still man, but i was what I was doing was a lot different than what you were doing. So at 20 years old, I was a man and I was ready to be a pro. You were a man by the standards of what they said a man should be. I mean, there is some aspect of like this gladiator training. I watched that movie and I resonated so much with it and it's part of what I'm doing now. But yeah yeah, I was trained to be a warrior, a weapon really. Yeah. And then what do you, what do you do with the weapon when they're discarded?
00:11:48
Speaker
Right. Big question. Wow. Before you're becoming the weapon, what is the joy of skating, of competing? Do you remember what that was like before you got pulled into the business? You know, skating 20, 30 miles an hour and the wind in your hair and the, say, exhilarating would be a word. Competing, getting hit, beat like being hit, getting hit.
00:12:13
Speaker
It's just in that competition, just so pure. And there's no excuses, really. We say, ima I'm going to go play. What did that mean for you? Like for me, what when did you say that it's like grade four, five, six, seven, we all had our sticks.
00:12:28
Speaker
And as soon as that bell rang for recess, there would be like 10 of us. I'm just run out and we played ball hockey for however long recess was 35, 45 minutes. Yeah. and then we'd be doing it again then we go home and if it was winter time we'd be on the pond and it was just like any everything i wanted to do always just hockey just a pure deep joy and love of it there was an aspect of that that i found to be not singularly male but that being come completely absorbed in this focus and almost just getting
00:13:01
Speaker
The blinders, I think all all three of us have have felt that feeling of you get this blinders into the scope of what we're trying to do here and finding in the intensity of competition, finding actually a sense of peace and harmony in those moments.
00:13:17
Speaker
and reflecting on that and experiencing that early on. And something, i mean, now I would almost say is like, there's something spiritual about that where even if I'm like skiing and back in a back bowl now, like experiencing that again.
00:13:31
Speaker
One of the coolest things that I've ever experienced was being in that total flow state, everything just feeling so good, smooth. You can see a couple of plays ahead. Everything is quieted down.
00:13:45
Speaker
and you're playing front of 20 000 people yeah and everything is just like an orchestra and it's flow state and i don't know many people on this earth have ever realized that at that level but like that's addicting that flow state at times felt worshipful like there was a sense of awe of just i am right here in this moment and there's nothing else outside of this It's also something I've heard as a means of for athletes, whether they were growing up in harder environments as well as it was the escape.
00:14:21
Speaker
It was, i mean, look at the language that oftentimes is used. It's like, this is my sanctuary. This is my temple. That's definitely true. Like, I'm not saying I grew up in a you know negative household that I had to escape, but whatever it was, even now, right? When I skate with the guys, you know, a couple of times a month, When we're in the locker room and we get on the ice, like there's no time for your brain to think about your taxes or like the bills or whatever. You are a hundred percent focused on that activity for that amount of time. It's a escape for at least an hour that you're not thinking about anything else. You're totally tuned in to the, cause it's so fast. that That for sure is a fact. there's There's a lot of what we just described in terms of being that space where we can be singularly focused, where we can, that it feels like sometimes people don't, in general, whether it's, I don't want to create the bogeyman of society or women in general, but...
00:15:19
Speaker
There's this, we live in this world where we we have to juggle a whole lot. Going back to the things of when we were growing up young, where we could lose ourselves in our own world, where we could be consumed by that and seeking that. Because there's something that happens there that I feel is restorative, that allows me to come back and be better in other areas. And yet, a lot of those things are actually denigrated now.
00:15:47
Speaker
finding that time to to actually find that flow state, to to to reconnect with self. The spaces for men doing that, particularly together, have have slowly been pulled back and pulled away. Seems like it's lost its value because I think there is an expectation of being productive for the greater good, right? Yeah.
00:16:08
Speaker
And I think that's dangerous. What's happening in those moments is we are actually building some degree of structure. In that moment of of flow state, I have clarity and I'm starting to be able to see what it's like to define a space in a way that's somewhat captured and not the chaos of the world, right? You step onto the ice and it's defined.
00:16:34
Speaker
It has a very specific structure, spirit of the game itself that's embodied in the laws of the game. And it's almost this picture of what the expectation is, not only for men, but oftentimes for ourselves, which is to provide stability and structure. We're role-playing what it's like to actually build something that is reliable, that is dependable, that is viable, that even if it's for 90 minutes, even if it's for 60 minutes.
00:17:04
Speaker
But then it takes this turn towards being of value to other people where it could become a job, where it could become the job that's done to supply for your family. Now people are telling you in this gladiator model is is that, yeah, you have that structure. You're really good at this, but now we need you to perform for us.
00:17:28
Speaker
When did it start to become a business? 14 was when I grew four inches and put on like 40 pounds and was having a really good year.
00:17:39
Speaker
And then I got drafted to the OHL. And then from there, started playing a little bit in junior B and was like competing with 20 year olds. And then 15, it was a full blown job. Yeah. It was like that 12, 13, like hoping.
00:17:54
Speaker
And then at 14, I was like, oh, I can do this. Hmm. Yeah, that growth spurt was nice. But it all came together at 14. I was just like, wow. It kind of clicked that like all of my dreams and everything to this point, actually i see the light and I know I can do it. So then it was like full throttle.
00:18:14
Speaker
At that point on, at any point, if you didn't perform, you just don't have a job. so like That's the business part of this. Yeah, you don't. And like it's it's very hard to get there.
00:18:25
Speaker
it's It's way harder to stay. Yeah. Sure. Because you have guys coming at your job every single day. was that experience like? It's stressful, right? And then you have opportunities throughout the career of like, wow, like how I'm in a signing year. I have a good year this year, I can set up my family for life. Yeah, wow.
Mental Health Struggles and Stigma in Sports
00:18:44
Speaker
And then, you know, I was in situations where, know, I wasn't sleeping for days. i was playing 30 minutes a game in Detroit. And my eye just broke. I like everything spirit, everything broke.
00:18:57
Speaker
And then I went to the hospital and was diagnosed with depression. Wow. Got me on the pharmaceuticals. And I had no idea. it was a lot of blind trust at that point.
00:19:08
Speaker
You know, just learn that it's not, I'm not just a hockey player. I'm more than that. And I got to take care of all of it. You bet. That was my first run in with stress of how much of a killer that could be.
00:19:18
Speaker
um so I had to really take care of the whole. Wow. But yeah, there's ah there's a lot of stress and a lot of um demand to perform. There's a saying in hockey, you're only as good as your last shift.
00:19:30
Speaker
Yep. And it's so true. um It's also a horrible to view with the next shift, isn't it? Yeah. And a lot of the stress too is it's never good enough. Yeah. Like we could win eight one on a Sunday and on Tuesday morning when we go in for video, you're getting picked apart about the smallest details, right? So it's never good enough.
00:19:51
Speaker
So then you bring that philosophy back to marriage or being a father, real life. And, know, people are just like, dude, why can't you just be happy? It's like, well, I was trained my whole life to be better. Yeah. Always.
00:20:05
Speaker
It's never enough. Never, never anymore. So like the beauty of what, you know, the work we're doing is awareness of that now. But for the longest time, I didn't, i was just the way it was. Yeah. And it's like, well, that's the way that business is. Yeah. Right. But that doesn't serve you on in the stuff yeah we're trying to do in normal life. Mm-hmm.
00:20:25
Speaker
Can i ask you a loaded question about the the time that you recognized you were in Detroit, went to the hospital, depression was talked about. Were there people that you could talk to you other colleagues, other players that have been in the similar situation, or was it something that you felt like you were the first one to go through this? No, I, there was definitely like looking back now, there's definitely guys that I could trust and people, you know, trusted me to talk, but I think it's the masculine male thing that I just didn't feel in that very, very masculine world of like trying to keep your job. Right. I didn't tell anybody.
00:21:04
Speaker
Did it seem like a weakness where something could bleed into other areas where if you're showing a vulnerability there that that could. When they're like looking at you on a spreadsheet and they're saying the pros and cons, you don't want to put any more cons in that. Yeah.
00:21:19
Speaker
Right. So my age is always going against me every year i go. Sure. Right. they'll They're always looking for younger, stronger, faster. Yeah. So then had, you know, 15 plus concussions at that point. but didn't know that. And i didn't, I didn't, uh, mental health was an issue.
00:21:36
Speaker
so I'm not going to like tell them about it. So that was my mentality of like, I'm not going to give them any more ammunition to fire me. Sure. Like, so I had to do it all on my own. I'm guessing that there are other players that are in a similar situation, both when you're playing... There's 700 of them. Yeah, okay. and Fair. but it's really It's really unhealthy. I mean, just to paint this with a very broad brush, but oh my gosh, if you're so concerned about who's looking over your your back and the scrutiny to not even be able to take the space to take care of yourself...
00:22:08
Speaker
What I found too is this is the exact same mentality with military and the exact same with first responders. Interesting. And I don't know why it wouldn't be with every other sport. Sure.
00:22:20
Speaker
Cause the end of the day, they look at us like cattle. Like we're not, uh, your product, right? Yeah. They have a, they have a job to do. They have to put on a good product and we're just one cog in that wheel.
00:22:30
Speaker
And as soon as you're broke, they find another part, put in the, the cog. So, um, understanding that, you know, and even if they did try, but Hey, like we're, we care about you as a person.
00:22:42
Speaker
okay like but um sure and there's guys that are on you know seven eight year contracts now right i my longest contract was two yeah yeah so i had to fend for myself for and i i didn't trust that they had my best interest because at the end of the day i was only there for a year or two It's a constant proving ground. Whereas what you just said, seven to eight year contract might provide even just a little bit of breathing room versus- It's guaranteed contract. So your first couple of years really helped, like you gotta be real bad yeah for them to eat that and buy out. yeah But yeah, so I think at that point they could be like, okay, we're in this together, right?
00:23:28
Speaker
But on a one year, two year deal, you're just, we'll get someone else. When did the awareness of how they were measuring you and reducing you to numbers start to creep in? I would say about middle of my career. So being 25, 26, 27, when you start going through different teams, being traded, put on waivers, and then you're seeing the ugliness. And then by you know late thirty or early 30s, I was so jaded. Yeah. Yeah. I saw the whole thing. So when someone said something not authentic or true, it's...
00:24:00
Speaker
It hurt. Then at the Minnesota, a lot of that was happening. And I was at the very end of my career and I was so jaded and I just saw all the, you know, bullshit that they were saying. And I wasn't good enough to be half in. As soon as that, that switch flipped, I was gone within a couple of weeks. Yeah. Like I got fired from Minnesota. Okay.
00:24:21
Speaker
Just asked me not to come back. Sure. And i and it was mutual. Yeah. Yeah. And I knew I was, da I was done. Was this the first time you were fired? For this way, yeah, for sure. So the story was that it went from the coach not having great communication with me and then something like I didn't play in a game and it kind of triggered something like, I was like, this doesn't make sense.
00:24:44
Speaker
And I'm getting lied to a little bit. And then this reporter kind of got a hard on for me and just started writing. And I was the fifth, sixth, seventh defenseman. Like I have very little impact on the game or the success of the team.
00:24:58
Speaker
It started to get to me. I stopped sleeping very well. And then i just got pissed off. And then next thing you know, I don't play well. I knew I wasn't going to play the next game. So go out with a bunch of guys. Our main guy gets hurt. And I went from like the 11th defenseman to number two and and Winnipeg. i wasn't right for so many different reasons. Had a bad game. And that was that you got to think too, right? On the other side, if we lose two or three in a row,
00:25:26
Speaker
And you look at the whole roster on that team specifically, i would say there was 17 guys on five year or longer contracts and three guys on one year contracts.
00:25:39
Speaker
who do you think is going to go sure and i was friends with all the young guys that just signed the fresh five-year deals they're coming off their best season last year yeah it's so typical but they all were slumping at the same time oh why is that you're trying to prove it so before your were plan for you for know league minimum and this is what i did too when i came to colorado but i was making uh league minimum i got traded here from l la i was the number one d Nothing could go wrong. Everything's up. They signed me to ah a deal for $3 million.
00:26:08
Speaker
yeah So all of a sudden, now I have to play at $3 million. All they wanted me to do was just keep playing the way I was playing. sure So you're pushing, you're pressing, you're squeezing your stick. Everything is forced instead of just flowing.
00:26:19
Speaker
wow And then next thing you know, you're just you're going against the flow yeah and nothing works. That's what all these guys were doing. And I was saying to them at dinner one night, I'm like, listen, if you guys don't clean it up, I will be gone. It doesn't matter how I'm playing. It doesn't matter.
00:26:33
Speaker
They have to switch it up. They have to fire a coach. They have to they have to fire some players. They have to do something. Sure. Because they can't just let this season go. They got a scapegoat somebody. Exactly. And again, I i had a couple of bad games back to back and it was like, I was at the whole career ended in a matter of a week or two because of couple of things.
00:26:53
Speaker
You know, the reporter and me me me listening to the negative and believing it and then let the coach's bad communication and, you know, lying to me. um It got to me and I wasn't all in.
00:27:06
Speaker
Then boom, over. Can you describe the environment of of that professional room with other players? irrespective of contracts, everybody's there, everybody has the same vision, but they're all feeling this pressure. And I would have a tough time relaxing in person because if I know that I'm hearing things that I don't believe, if people are being dishonest or deceitful because they're just telling you, it's basically lip service.
00:27:31
Speaker
Oh, you're great. We're going the distance, whatever. You said to yourself, when you become jaded, that trust dynamic becomes hard to establish and to develop. What was the situation with the room full of people that are also dealing with whatever their stuff is? But I'm sure it's not dissimilar.
00:27:47
Speaker
Yeah. Dinners and stuff were always collectively bitching about the coach. and Oh, yeah. Which is like therapy and and like the coaches are doing the best they can, but you know, some of them um struggle to do just the one thing they're supposed to do and just be honest and give us our jobs and our roles defined very clearly.
00:28:05
Speaker
And they had the tough decision telling two or three guys every game that they're not playing. Sure. Right? So it's not an easy deal. Sure. sucks So like how they deliver that message, I just wanted the truth.
00:28:18
Speaker
I wanted a game plan. Yeah. And I never got that in Minnesota. That's what hurt me the most. But yeah, guys be like, man, I'm not playing again. Right. And and then we're there for each other. Okay. Next week it's maybe me. Sure. Right. then it's rotation.
00:28:33
Speaker
That locker room, that core of guys, we're were there for each other. Because again, We go into Madison Square Garden, you know, there's 20 people. That's it. That's all we have. yeah And there's 20,000 people out there. It's a gladiator. So we're walking out. There's only 19 guys that you can look to.
Community and Brotherhood in Sports
00:28:50
Speaker
And that's a pretty cool brotherhood. You'd mentioned playing in front of 20,000 people and that most people will never experience that, but having that group. and who you know so well, share the battles, share the funny stories, but also good, bad, or whatever. Those people are always with you. That's that's magic that you can't recreate. And talked about military.
00:29:11
Speaker
I hear stories that that is that brotherhood, that dynamic that exists there. It also is available in sports. And hopefully people will get a taste of that at some point. It's community, it's tribe, it's accountability network.
00:29:25
Speaker
It's like that is what I'm focused on building now and being a leader in that space. yeah Because at the end of the day, yeah, the exhilaration of the speed of the game. I miss i miss performing in front of you know a lot of people with a lot of high stakes on the line. Yeah. But at the end of the day, if I got to one thing back, it's being a part of that team again.
00:29:47
Speaker
Oh man. So that's what I'm striving to create in a lot of different ways. Where do you think that hunger and yearning comes from or came from for you? Oh man, I could tell you very definitively.
00:29:59
Speaker
I was driving home from the hospital, tears in my eyes, and was week two of COVID and my best friends would not come 10 feet from me. Oh wow. The pinnacle of times that I needed support from my community, my tribe, didn't get it.
00:30:18
Speaker
Do you want to share why? How do you feel about that? My, um ah on his first birthday, my son was diagnosed with brain cancer. It was ah April 1st, 2020. So it was like week one of COVID. Yeah. So we got to see that whole thing unravel from inside the hospital. But that was crazy.
00:30:38
Speaker
That was wild. Just going through all that stuff at that time of where society was going through all their stuff. But the biggest takeaway from all of that was how important community is and tribe.
00:30:51
Speaker
particularly in times of intensity. yeah You talked about the intensity of being under the spotlight, the scrutinizing spotlight and walking out to meet the performance expectations there with your tribe.
00:31:04
Speaker
That's a form of intensity that oftentimes is that peak. But now what you're describing is that deep valley of intensity and it's a year alone. You have the memory of what it's like to have that support around you almost compounds it further. Yeah, when it's gone. Yeah. Yeah, it was hard to fathom because people were in different mindsets of fear and no one had answers at that time. We were you know looking for something and and there was nowhere to be found. And it was just fear. Everywhere you went was fear.
00:31:34
Speaker
And like, if you have so much fear, all of mine was put over here. So I didn't fear the same thing they feared. Yeah, sure. And I had this deep need. The only way for it to break was for someone to be like, I'm willing to give you a hug instead of be scared of this thing.
00:31:51
Speaker
Um, and it took a while. Yeah. Um, but even like logistically, like my parents are Canadian, couldn't cross the border, like literally alone. So fortunate that my wife's mom came to support, but oof yeah, that was wild. That aspect of craving, getting back to that brotherhood. You've seen this now for yourself. You've seen it in these other groups as well.
00:32:13
Speaker
What does brotherhood mean? The biggest thing for me is accountability. Because when you walk into a locker room, you have, you know, you got 20 guys looking at you, making sure you're ready to go.
00:32:24
Speaker
Because we're only as good as our weakest link in hockey. In military, it's very similar. If you go through that door and you're supposed to go left and you go right, like you're putting 10, 15 guys in danger. right That's the ultimate accountability network probably, right? And same with the firefighters. Like there's a mission to be had and if you don't execute it the right way, you're putting a lot of people in danger.
00:32:49
Speaker
When you leave the game, that accountability network goes. There's no reason to get out of bed before noon. There's no one checking in on you and being like, you good? like We got a big one tonight. that There's no more big ones.
00:33:00
Speaker
So that accountability network's a big one. Finding that is important. There's an aspect here of, look, our jobs are on the line.
Life After Hockey: Purpose and Transition
00:33:10
Speaker
People's lives are on the line and we need to to get ourselves to a level of accountability that meets the bar because the stakes are big.
00:33:18
Speaker
What does accountability mean for you when the stakes are no longer big? It's finding guys that forces me to be better or pushes me to be better.
00:33:31
Speaker
It's in you that says I need to be better. I think it's from you know training for hockey, yeah but it's also I've seen it the other way.
00:33:42
Speaker
I've seen how I'm lost without a rudder, without a goal, a mission, a purpose. So that was you know a couple years out of the game. and just But I quickly found something to strive towards. i just I saw that as ah as a need for me to ah just be a better version myself.
00:34:03
Speaker
Or the other way was not a good version of myself. I would say that of just having a lot of, I do struggle with just being from childhood and everything, but I'm finally getting aware of how awesome I am and not having to prove it constantly.
00:34:20
Speaker
I still have a lot to give and a lot of cool things to accomplish. And it's coming from a a really good part of me saying, cause I want to do it. I don't need to do it, but I have the ability to do it. I know that. And I want to.
00:34:33
Speaker
There are some persistent questions that are always rattling around. Am I enough? Is one of them. The means for trying to prove to ourselves that we are can either manifest in ways that are healthy.
00:34:49
Speaker
or unhealthy. And we see a lot of unhealthy ways. The other aspect is not necessarily, am I enough from a proving perspective saying like, am I, am I worthy of your attention? Am I worthy just as I am? And so much of the messaging is similar to what you were talking about with going through hockey is it's like,
00:35:12
Speaker
There are so many systems that are set up to say, you will actually never get the carrot. You will never catch the rabbit. You're always going to be chasing, chasing, chasing. That makes it feel like you're reducing me to the utility of being just a tool.
00:35:28
Speaker
What I see for a lot of men who come from military and and these highly structured environments, the bar is very clear. It's like...
00:35:38
Speaker
You hit this, you're still in the game, you miss it. And what you have to now reconcile is is that, well, who am I, if I can't meet the bar in this venue any longer?
00:35:50
Speaker
Do I even have worth still? Yeah. Especially if your worth system was based on results and being a professional hockey player, it's changing the metrics that you're defining your worth for yourself. I think that is a really good point. And I think something that a lot of people suffer from, even transitioning from working a regular job all their life and then going into retirement, I think they still feel that sense of what is my goal now, right? And so we talked about this with your experience, but I think a lot of people suffer with how do they find that next thing that gives them a sense of purpose. How long had you been retired until you were able to find, oh, I could sink my energy into this and this feels right
00:36:33
Speaker
Yeah, i tried to commit myself to not doing too wild, too big, too early. but I knew that was going to be a thing. How did you come up with that? Because to me, I think that given what I'm assuming you put into you for your entire career, it would be 100 miles an hour, and the next thing is going to be the same speed.
00:36:49
Speaker
How did you recognize that might not be the best path? I lived in Finland my last year. um and the family was over there for like two and a months. So I was gone a lot and I just felt, i wanted to just be, I guess, stay at home dad and really be with the kids. I had a baby baby. Like I met, like I met my youngest son when he was three weeks old because I was still playing when he was born.
00:37:13
Speaker
Um, and then ah our older son uh, 15 months So we had two under, yeah. So we were in it. Just, just, uh, wasting no time whatsoever. Yeah. So as soon as I got home from Finland, April 19th, it was a game on and that was my new mission. Just kind of being wow with them yeah and supporting the family and. Wow. That's great.
00:37:37
Speaker
not with time and just being there. And after a while you decide like that's the heart, one of the hardest things I ever did Oh yeah. Cause like, I was bred to do something else, um to be out in the wild.
00:37:51
Speaker
um But I had to go through that to see that and to know that. My first mission was to really bring up the Colorado Avalanche Alumni Association. So taking care of building community around the retired guys.
00:38:06
Speaker
um And that was driven into me from, you know, my first elder was Chris Chelios. It kind of taught me how important that was. um Lost of some good friends along the way to suicide, opioids, all that stuff. Alcohol is a big player in our in our society. but The alumni is that community, that tribe of that locker room that we lost, that we're getting back.
00:38:32
Speaker
And I'm very proud of where we are now. But that was my first mission. We took it from the basement of Cronkysports Charities, and now we independently run it. Wow. So that was my nine to five, like,
00:38:44
Speaker
100 hours a week, ran it like a business, try to get it to a point where we could hire someone, some people to help run the admin stuff for us. We're doing some amazing things around the state. The beauty of of it is we get to hang out with each other with purpose and make sure guys are good. It's great gift. Wow.
00:39:03
Speaker
I hear you recreating new arenas that invite these men who, once they feel that they've either washed out and that here's a here's a new space to come in, and you belong you know the the stakes and the level of risk is different and you're inviting these guys who still have to almost go through this detox period of similar like what you were saying is i could just throw everything into it how do you invite men into this new arena where you don't need the same weapons where you don't need to fight the same way to compete everything that's been trained up in you now those aren't the right tools in this space in the same way that when you went to go home and be a stay-at-home dad the tools are are different a lot of the pain or the collateral damage that we're going to create is going to happen and is going to be determined by how long does it take us to figure out that these things don't work in this venue any longer
00:40:03
Speaker
I was taught that it's attraction, not promotion. So what I am now realizing is all of the traumas and all the things that I had go through was to army to put this in the language, but also embody it on a daily basis to be a leader.
00:40:20
Speaker
And that's like, I think where we drive is like this language of how to explain these things. The notion of transition is kind of what I'm focusing on because yes, it's very definitive with military first responders and you know hockey and athletes because we we get into it knowing we're not going to play this until we get our IRA check at 63, right? Yeah. But you're so focused of staying in that job that you really don't put any emphasis on the transition or the retirement period. The biggest thing that I would like to just to scream is like, it's a thing.
00:40:54
Speaker
And I give it some respect, give it some awareness. And there's our tools and other things that we can do. And community is a big one. And don't isolate yourself because that's what you will do. Just know that there's tools and like a lot of people have gone through it before. And you're not alone. All that good stuff. Just being aware of all the stuff I've gone through is getting me to this point.
00:41:14
Speaker
And there's a reason for it all. Wasn't planning on doing this, but it's very clear that I've you know i've been chosen to be a leader of men and and just do it the right way. Try to nail down this language to describe these concepts that are pretty deep in a precise way for it to be digestible. That's ah what I'm striving towards and getting better every day at it.
00:41:37
Speaker
What I tell people is like the first thing, you know, when you're transitioning, the first thing is like just... go back to basics and build yourself back up. You know, we worked out as a job. So part of it is like, Hey, I don't to work out anymore. This is why we see so many athletes come out they like, it's been six months. Where did you get that beer belly from? Where did you, Yeah. So it's um just getting back to that, right? Getting back to moving your body and then moving in your mind and getting your mind right. And there's tools and things to do for that and your spirit.
00:42:11
Speaker
We never talked about that or dealt with that. That just just throw weights around and have a few beers and off to the next town. It's so important because your mind goes and your spirit goes, it all goes.
00:42:22
Speaker
When I lose that standard for convincing me that I have value and then that's gone and I've got to rebuild that. And you said, here's the practices that you just, you need to do these. You may not even feel like you want to do them.
00:42:37
Speaker
The other thing I'll ask them is what are your hobbies? And I talked to so many people that are approaching retirement or should be retired, but they can't do it because there's nothing to go to after that.
00:42:50
Speaker
There's that invitation back to that sense of this is no longer validating to you as as ah saying you have value, that you are enough. that you What are the things that we do simply because we want to do them?
00:43:07
Speaker
And there's so many guys that I talk to, they don't have an answer for that. they don't know where they're going to go bump into themselves. And I think that's the degree of even going back to when we were kids, when we were eight, nine, and 10. Part of the reason we played is because we were figuring out who we were.
00:43:27
Speaker
We were figuring out what our limits were. we were figuring out what motivated us. we How do you play now? The one thing I do, don't think anyone knows this. ah I used to subscribe to Rolling Stone and then I would cut out all the pictures of like the legends, like Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Tom Petty, all the blues, Muddy
Embracing Joy, Creativity, and Personal Growth
00:43:50
Speaker
Waters. yeah um And I would make a collage and it was, yeah and it's like never done. Like,
00:43:56
Speaker
The size this window is big. It was my way of doing art. i'm not I'm not a big TV guy, so it was something that was very therapeutic. Ride my bike, even if it's a my cruiser with the boys or on a road bike or a mountain bike, that's play for me.
00:44:16
Speaker
Um, going to a concert, you know nice dinner was with friends, just, uh, golf, I would say golf's my number one. Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely love it being outside. Yeah, sure.
00:44:29
Speaker
And, uh, I get to be competitive and I still love to practice. So like, there's a, there's a part of me that's as play in that grind. There's some part of me that just wants to be like very good at these different things. That's all you know in all your life, right? Yeah. So I don't know why I love to practice so much or willing to grind. And I think it's not a grind for me, but some people will say that. but My emerging hypothesis on the nature of of grind. Buckle up, here it comes. Different than grind culture. Like, you know, grind culture that comes out of Silicon Valley of...
00:45:06
Speaker
is still a more of that kind of value by production value by just losing yourself in in killing yourself to a degree yeah we've talked about that aspect of practice going back to when you were coming up spending hours just doing the exact same thing over and over and over again There is something about getting so good at something that you're building an aspect of yourself that you know so well that you can trust, that you can, you're building stability for self. too Yeah.
00:45:44
Speaker
sure Yeah. the The repeatable swing. I see what the objective is. I see what success looks like and what stands between what I can do today and then and and getting that ball you know three feet from the pin. is whether I can know myself well enough and diagnose what is required to build the trust within myself that I can execute and I can execute well. We live in a world that loves that degree of reliability. It is stabilizing to people because they want to be able to look at someone who says, i can do that.
00:46:23
Speaker
And they want to say, i trust you. But it starts first with, do I trust myself? Do I trust myself to be able to stand up and say, yes, I'm going to do this?
00:46:34
Speaker
Not because somebody wants me to do it, but because I want to do it for myself. I want to challenge myself. I mean, for you, what what has been your relationship to the grind beyond the performative aspect of it? It's very therapeutic to me. like it's it's ah And again, I talk about the grind, I'm talking about practicing solo.
00:46:56
Speaker
Yeah. So it's a very individual, personal, I'm alone. Yeah. It's me working on my craft and it's a very intimate, personal thing. It has nothing to do with anyone else but me. Yeah. So that's very cool. Yeah.
00:47:11
Speaker
um It's my one time I get to really be with myself. Very, and i and um I'm very, you know, being critical, but also like just everything is so dialed.
00:47:23
Speaker
My athleticism gets to be at its very peak. um And that was, you know, taking slap shots at a square in a drywall to try to break through the, or the plywood to try to break through it.
00:47:35
Speaker
Right. And then targets in the net. um Then it was golf. Mm-hmm. that lacrosse it was against the brick wall like this is great and it and it i think there's a part of like brain act activity too that you know for me i get pulled in a lot of different directions but if i can do a singular thing right one of the favorite things i do is go up to the ranch and just move rocks or lay a road or build a fence Cause it takes a singular thing. I got to do this repeatable thing hundred times.
00:48:08
Speaker
Right. And I'm, I'm in such peace and I know there's a physiological neurological reasoning for that, but it is what it is for me. I love it. So the grind is not the best word for that. Grind has negative connotations. I'm only here in positivity. Yeah, no, I enjoy it. And I'm very fortunate that that's part of my personality because it's gotten me to be very, very good at a lot of different things.
00:48:32
Speaker
Yeah. Because I have a singular focus and I enjoy, you know, being alone with it. What I'm hearing both of you say, though, is that these activities are in response to a pursuit of perfectionism in some capacity.
00:48:45
Speaker
And I think there is a real developmental piece of that that is calming once you've reached that place. There's frustration ah every step of the way leading up to it. But once you've once you know if you're asked to do that thing by yourself or other means, yeah, I could do this. And then you don't have to worry about that. And that becomes a thing that you could build on.
00:49:05
Speaker
I hear elements of a sacred solitude yeah that you're describing of like, this is where regardless of whether there's anything outside of me, I'm doing this for me and I must do that for me. And And almost to, and think we have lots of examples of where people bring incentives is like, I'm laying this road.
00:49:29
Speaker
And, and if somebody was to come out and actually add like some to dangle some carrot for that, it actually undermines and profanes the activity itself because I'm doing this because i want to yeah i want to i'm i'm connecting to who who i am and this is an expression of mine that has no price tag attached to it it's confidence it's going to true self and all of it and it's such a need such a need you said the true self
00:50:02
Speaker
And that's something that I'm wildly fascinated with. And I think that it's also very easy to avoid for big chunk of your life until it hits you that you're unhappy with whatever.
00:50:15
Speaker
And the true self to me seems very clear, but I think I'm very fortunate in my journey and that I was able to identify, oh, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I get that.
00:50:26
Speaker
Most people don't have that recognition. do you want to speak to you a little bit more about what it means to you and how to arrive at it? Well, I think it kind of goes with, um you know, the word we're trying to, I think there's a level of perfectionism.
00:50:41
Speaker
I'm not sure if that's the correct word to capture what this is, but the same vibe perfectionism. shooting pucks against the wall, lacrosse ball against the wall, yeah golf, just training, right?
00:50:56
Speaker
And immersing yourself in this singular focus. I've done the same thing with wellness would be a word, but also self-discovery I think would be probably the better word. Yeah.
00:51:09
Speaker
that you know the use of psychedelics has definitely helped. And it got me to a point where you know the journaling and the really diving deep into childhood and why why are why am i this way?
00:51:27
Speaker
right So almost removing and excavating all the junk that we put in you got to see the true self. So I'm still working on that, but it's coming clear and clear to me. But the hardest part is excavating all the junk out.
00:51:45
Speaker
So and again, we have mentors and counselors to do this with the help of you know psychedelics and other things. and um But again, I'm on this path that i'm so keep I keep putting the ball against the wall. like i keep I keep saying yes.
00:52:01
Speaker
I keep diving deeper, learning. And and i'm I'm called to do this to be a resource and um an example for guys to, if they're looking to be better versions of themselves or get out of the hole they're in or pick a different path, that someone,
00:52:23
Speaker
has done it, and is willing to talk about it and be vulnerable. That's the ball against the wall right now, what I'm kind of doing. that's That's a good effort for sure. What is Do Good Ranch? Tell us what, I mean. yeah what are you up to now? Yeah, what what is that like and and maybe how did it come to
Do Good Ranch: Healing Through Community and Nature
00:52:42
Speaker
be? and And we've probably tread a lot of that ground already. Yeah. But where did it switch from being preparing for this idea that's starting to emerge to the eyes wide open of, oh, this is a thing. Yeah, Nicole's notes on it, I guess, is March 2021, COVID was kind of going sideways, so I wanted to get a piece of land that I could escape to if things kept going that way.
00:53:08
Speaker
And ah kept I went up there and had some amazing partners. One was a PhD biochemist that was kind of educating me on Everything. You know, he was a couple years older than I was and was in that world and science, like the opposite of hockey.
00:53:26
Speaker
Right. Sure. But just learning so much and then diving deep into podcasts and other things. And it was, you know, um there was a big drive to learn for Axel to see. Yeah.
00:53:39
Speaker
you know, Axel's your my son. Yeah. So, um, you know, cancer and also, um neurologically, like what these, what mushrooms can do for your brain. Cause like, again, 20 plus concussions, CTE, everything, dementia, depression, all of it. Right. So it was very personal.
00:53:59
Speaker
And then how can some of these mushrooms and CBD and cannabis help with cancer? Because you know, what, what we went through, wasn't an option to go do it again. It was pretty traumatic with the the chemo and the radiation and all that stuff.
00:54:17
Speaker
But to so I was a driver and then just coming back into the community and just guys seeing the light my eyes again and just how, you know, just how vibrant I was.
00:54:29
Speaker
And they were like, what's what are you doing? I'm like, well, I'm doing large doses of psilocybin monthly. And my brain's feeling better. My energy's back. My purpose, I'm feeling good.
00:54:41
Speaker
And um from there, just kind of kept saying yes to the Navy SEAL community kind of took me under their wing. And um I've just been so fortunate from hockey to, you know, the Navy SEALs and even Tyler like being just a mentor and listening and being a sponge for, you know people that I look up to.
00:55:02
Speaker
Got to experience different medicines and different elders and just learned, just absorbed as much as I could. So very quickly it was like, I need to figure out places for people to stay because they keep wanting to come to the ranch and it organically turned into a retreat center.
00:55:19
Speaker
Oh yeah. So it's the stuff that we talked about, you know, our pillars are education, access and community. So community being the big one of you know getting 16 to 25 guys together in a retreat over four days in wilderness, in nature, and getting to all the basics, having these conversations around the campfire.
00:55:42
Speaker
um letting them play, letting them, you know, excavate some things and see who they really are. um And, you know, we use psychedelics there, but also it's it's one tool.
00:55:56
Speaker
And the the big tool is the community and the language and being vulnerable. So um just being a leader for that is kind of what I'm called to do now. And just my passion is just making that space so beautiful.
00:56:11
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, when people come up, I'm just so honored that they trust and want to, and the courage, right. It takes, but but then to be there. Um, and then selfishly, I get to hang out with some of the coolest people on the planet.
00:56:25
Speaker
Sounds good right. It's yeah the, it's the CEOs. It's the special ah operator community, the first responders, the professional athletes, the, the guy that wants to be a better version of himself. And it says enough's enough. Yeah. I'm scared.
00:56:41
Speaker
But also, i don't want to do this anymore. I want to be better. yeah And that's the bond that every single person that's sitting in there with that cup in their hand has that respect for each other.
00:56:54
Speaker
And the beauty of military first responders, um hockey, professional athletes, It's all an earned community. Yeah, that's right. You can't go buy a membership. You have to earn it.
00:57:07
Speaker
okay And to be part of the Duguid Ranch family alumni, you have to earn it. So it's a really cool club we're kind of putting together. And it's all people that are courageous and have all said, you know what?
00:57:19
Speaker
No, I'm going to take this leap of faith and be better. So I'm just so proud of um you know what we're building and everyone that has been through and will come through next year. And yeah, we're doing like 15, 10 to 15 retreats almost once a month and couple in the the beautiful seasons to be up there. sure And ah kind of just keep giving access to these beautiful tools.
00:57:44
Speaker
I just love your explanation of it. i I just met you today, but I can tell that you're so excited about the work that you're doing as you should be and just seeing you light up about this. really, um, a great endorsement what you're doing.
00:57:57
Speaker
Yeah. I appreciate it. yeah This path that we're on to self discovery to self betterment.
Conclusion: Encouraging Community Support
00:58:05
Speaker
Um, and we're, we're singularly focused on this. And this is just from my personal experience that you can get lost in the grind. Maybe a good time to use that now, but you get singularly focused on something.
00:58:22
Speaker
that you forget to play. You forget the balance of all these different things you get pulled in all these directions. But it's like when I get busy, it's, you know, you give yourself to others and other things, but you, the the first thing that goes is your self-care, right?
00:58:42
Speaker
And it's going to the gym. It's eating properly. It's getting good sleep. um It's not drinking too much. you know you're using You're taking care yourself. But part of that is that play.
00:58:54
Speaker
what At the end of the day, what makes you you? what What do you want to do for no other reason that it just feels good? Whatever it is. And for me, if you don't do that, then you're not you're not the best husband you can be or the best father or the best version of yourself.
00:59:14
Speaker
And I think a good thing to strive for is we can be the best version of ourself, whatever that looks like, right? No judgment, doesn't have to be, you don't have to be, you can just be.
00:59:25
Speaker
But part of the equation, part of the balance is getting back to that play. And whatever looks like, if it's cutting out magazines and gluing it to a piece of whatever, right? Or if it's go throw the ball against the wall, like you're still, like i just turned 40 and i still feel like a kid.
00:59:44
Speaker
Like I still got the lacrosse stick, still got all my hockey gear. yep Right. And I'm just trying to keep this body going so I can do all these things. And that's what I strive for every day. So don't forget to play.
00:59:59
Speaker
Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together. If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
01:00:18
Speaker
And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface-level advice, subscribe to our kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com. Good Bain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands.
01:00:34
Speaker
And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.