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Goodpain Season 02 Episode No. 03: Interview with Charlie Moss, Associate Editor SPIN – Men & Grief
146 Plays5 months ago
Charlie Moss is an Assistant Editor at SPIN Magazine and penned a review of Director Brian Brightly's 2025 film release The Wake, a fictional exploration of men and grief. Charlie and I connected following the article drop and in a subsequent discussion around the topic, found ourselves discussing male imagination, world building, stability, and play. This episode captures that conversation.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Good Pain' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
There has to be something, but i guess, dramatic enough to cause people to say, like, I can't live like this anymore. Like, this isn't how I want to live. I need to make a change.
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to Good Pain, where we talk about life's true intensities without pretending they're easy to solve. What if the things we're told to fix, optimize, or get over are actually where the real wisdom lives?
00:00:25
Speaker
Each week we gather for the kind of honest conversations you desire to be a part of more often about the relentless demands, the unexpected grief, the quiet victories, and everything in between. Because maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't to eliminate the hard stuff, it's to find the good in it. Welcome to the conversation.
Significance of Guster in Hosts' Lives
00:00:53
Speaker
There's a specific band that represents the early years of parenting for Tiffany and I. We have videos of Autumn and Heidi dancing to this band as it played. And the band is Guster. And and a very specific album that we played over and over and over again represents a time for us of innocence before our world was shattered with Claire's accident in 2010.
00:01:20
Speaker
Recently in the last few years, we ended up going to a Red Rocks concert that was featuring Guster as the headliner. We got to, courtesy of Claire and Disability Access, sit in the front row. And now we have videos of tears streaming down our cheeks as we relived and listened to that music. Ryan Miller, lead singer of Guster, recently starred in a movie called The Wake that deals with men and grieving.
Conversation with Charlie Moss on Masculinity
00:01:47
Speaker
Recently, it was reviewed in Spin Magazine by a gentleman named Charlie Moss. Charlie is an associate editor at Spin Magazine, and I ended up reaching out to him and letting him know, we're doing a season around mature and immature masculinity. And would he be interested in having a conversation? Because in his article, he was kind enough to reveal that the conversation that emerged between himself, the producer, the director, and Ryan Miller really gave them the opportunity to go deep and explore some deep wounds, some relationships with grief itself. And that's something that I wanted to continue. And Charlie was gracious enough to grant me the time to talk. What we learned actually in our exchange prior to us even having this conversation is that Charlie a few years ago had started penning a series of articles exploring the topic of masculinity as well.
00:02:47
Speaker
So what follows is our conversation where Charlie is kind enough to explore his upbringing, the wounds that he carries, the messages around grief, around loss, around a very challenging formative childhood.
00:03:03
Speaker
And what he learned from that and what he and I share together as we explore this topic is what we're sharing with you today in this episode.
00:03:19
Speaker
Well, I mean, I didn't talk about things growing up. i but i'm um I'm a bottler. I bottle up my emotions. I still do it. um About, you know, with different things. There's a lot of history. Like, I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional household, and so just didn't talk about things.
00:03:34
Speaker
Not like we're talking right now. I i did. i bottled things up. um And it wasn't until in my junior year of high school, my English teacher assigned us... The college essay, like, you know, prep, let's prep for college admissions. Here's, you know, you'll have to write a college essay, pick a topic and write about it. And I wrote about the death of my granddad, who I was pretty close with when I was 13. He died right before my my bar mitzvah. And I hadn't talked about that. You know, so that was like five years. I was 18 when I graduated. And so like that had been it had been five years. I didn't really say anything about it. Didn't talk about it with anybody or whatever.
00:04:11
Speaker
And when I chose the topic, I think it was about like um somebody who you looked up to in your life. And it was my granddad. And I just wrote this paper, this essay, literally the last minute, like the night before. And just didn't think it was very good. And then my my English teacher a few days later said that she she basically announced to the class, like, we have a grade range of, you know, certain people made this and certain people made this, but this person made the highest grade. and this And this is why, because we were, I was with other teachers driving in a car to a conference and we read this essay aloud and then we were grading it and everybody in the car started crying. And then she told me it was mine.
00:04:51
Speaker
She told me that I would, she's like, ah you're going to become a published writer. Like you're, I don't know if you realize that you have a gift for writing, but you do and you should pursue that. And so was like, oh okay. i'm And I just didn't know, you know what i mean? Like it was just, but it was this great outlet that I learned that I could, i mean, i was an art guy, a visual art guy. I wanted to be a visual artist of some sort, but writing really what I was, it's a better way of expressing my feelings. through writing and then through therapy, because I mean, and I could talk all day about kind of the things that happened when I was younger, but like I'd i'd gone to a lot of
Charlie's Emotional Journey and Therapy
00:05:26
Speaker
therapy. And so I learned how to talk about my emotions and how important it is
00:05:33
Speaker
I still struggle with it, but I'm much better than I used to be. In that moment where she points out the accomplishment aspect of that on a topic that has a lot of unpacking available to it, what's the dance between this pat on the back and reward and also the nature of the topic itself? What did that mean for you on all these different dimensions?
00:05:59
Speaker
Initially, I was overwhelmed by it, which I feel looking back was kind of a weird thing. But I just I did. I didn't know what to do with it, I guess. Like, I didn't know. Like, I did this essay.
00:06:10
Speaker
i didn't. I just kind of tucked it away for a little while and was just like, I just didn't really think about it. honestly and then i mean it wasn't until probably college um later in college where i really started to think about writing and and honestly um i think part of it was i so i'd been through therapy like all as a as a kid um and but then i went back to therapy in college ah they had ah a college therapist on a campus and I had gone through some dysfunctional relationships and just saw this, saw pattern, you know, I was in these toxic relationships and I needed to figure out a way to get out of those, like to stop that pattern. And so I started going to therapy. And so I think that was really the first time where i really started to think about like, Therapy is a good thing. I need to learn how to talk about things and express myself. And and that can also be through writing. And that can also be through just going to a therapist and talking. and
00:07:09
Speaker
ah Because the kind of therapists I went to when I was younger, they were child therapists. So they they did a lot of like play therapy and things like that. And at the time, like I wasn't even aware of like what I was in therapy for, you know, like ah because I was just a kid.
00:07:22
Speaker
That helped a lot. I've gone on and off. i'm in i'm I'm in therapy now, you know, like because it's just it's like it's like a tune up, you know, like for a car um because you you'll I tend to forget, you know, like I'll forget how to.
00:07:37
Speaker
okay, well, i need to talk about my feelings more and learn how to express myself. One of the things you said was even within being in therapy as a child, you didn't necessarily know why.
00:07:49
Speaker
and then something, then an ah an event happens and there's something that happens within you, your grandfather's death. You said the time that had spanned that between then and writing was five or six years. Yeah. yeah I'm curious if you see like this cycle, not only within yourself, but also within some of the conversations you've explored with other men is is that something happens. It's put on the back burner until it forces itself into the foreground. And then, then there's something that, that confronts us that says, okay, I guess I do have to pay attention to this.
Charlie's Childhood Challenges
00:08:26
Speaker
I say it with my 15 year old. Like, a neat this is not a dysfunctional household. You know what i mean? Because for years I thought, because, you know, I, for context, you know, I grew up, my my mom was a recovering alcoholic, but when I was a kid, she drank very heavily.
00:08:41
Speaker
And my i have a twin sister and we, my aunt, um we moved in with my aunt when we were five. My father had left before we were born, and so by the age of five, i didn't have a dad, and my mom was a raging alcoholic and, you know, just couldn't keep her shit together when she drank. You know, it was a cycle of she'd be stayed sober for almost a year, and then she'd start drinking again, then she'd lose her job, she'd lose her car, she'd lose her apartment.
00:09:09
Speaker
And then she's on the street and then she'd get arrested. And it was this cycle on ongoing. So, you know, I lived with my aunt and and then living with my aunt was, you know, it was stressful because when we went to live with her, she had another son from another marriage and then she had remarried to my mom's brother, then had two more kids. And so there were five of us all together. And then...
00:09:29
Speaker
My uncle, her husband, was committing white collar crimes and cheating on her. And so then they got a divorce and she left him and we moved into a house and another house. um And just and didn't, you know, we didn't have a lot of money because she was a single parent and she was a paralegal. And the stress of living in that house because she just was stressed all the time.
00:09:53
Speaker
and for For good reason. I know that the way it that I am is has everything to do with the way I was brought up. But also, it's interesting to see my son because he's a lot like me. And so he does. He bottles things up. He can be very shy and a afraid of confrontation. And so if you ask him, how was your day? Or how, you know, and I know a lot of kids do this. But like, you know, how are you feeling? And it's just like, it's fine. Fine. And then at some point, he will blow up.
00:10:21
Speaker
Right. He will have all these emotions. And then I kind of see myself and go, yeah, i was like that. too You know, where you just you bottle up, yeah you can't bottle them up anymore and then you explode. And so I've talked to him about how to talk or I've tried to talk to him about how to express your feelings and the importance of it.
00:10:38
Speaker
We had a pretty decent conversation today, actually, um and he was honest about something that had happened over the weekend that he wasn't talking about or wouldn't give answers to. And then finally, he was just like, well, I'm i'm scared. I'm afraid.
00:10:52
Speaker
And I was like, what's wrong with that? It's normal. Happens. I can tell you, happens to me all the time. Still at 50. So I hear within that there's this threshold of environmental stress dysfunction that is almost an expectation of you just keep everything tamped down through that threshold level of distress.
00:11:15
Speaker
And then something happens that causes the spike that calls forth something else that, and it might manifest itself as an explosion. What is it that's poking its head up at those moments of explosion?
00:11:30
Speaker
i You know, I think it varies. um i so like i can give you another example. So when I was 10, lost my best friend in a car accident. I remember, I don't know, I don't remember how long it had been, and but I remember blowing up, exploding at my aunt when I was, because this was, you know, I'd been living there for about five years.
00:11:51
Speaker
I remember I didn't talk about it. We weren't allowed to go to the funeral. And i just never talked about it. And then something happened. And usually, okay, so I guess I'm getting around to it now because now I feel like a lot of times it's confrontation. So like with this particular incident, my aunt I got into an argument about something. And then I just exploded. And I was like punching walls and like just screaming and crying. And i think it depends on the situation. I i don't know.
00:12:19
Speaker
um i know what. But for me, what causes it is is, you know, some sort of computation. Usually at some point it's the pressure's got to come out and that's that's usually how it happens. It's to me, it's just more of like this, like a release valve. Like it just like I feel better, but I feel worse at the same time. Like I just can't control it. And then i end up beating myself up like I can't believe I did. that like I mean even even even like with my kids like if I'm trying very hard to control my mood and my like the way that I talk to them and then because I'm probably bottling up their feelings about like you know maybe conversations that need to happen that haven't happened with people or confrontations or whatever and I follow that up and then you know something could set me off where one of my kids does something and then I just
00:13:11
Speaker
blow up and I get mad. I mean, i I don't do that as much anymore because I've really been working hard on not doing that because that's the kind of household I grew up in. But like I do very aware of like, OK, like better walk away for a minute. My younger son has Down syndrome. And so like along with that, there's some pretty intense behavioral issues that can set me off pretty good because like if I'm not if I if I think that I know like, OK, well, I've got a sense of like his little, his little games and his little ways of kind of like pushing my buttons and I'm i'm i'm on top. And then he does something and I just, it throws me for a curve and then I lose it. And I'm like, damn.
00:13:49
Speaker
And i I have to it's um that's more of kind of what I do now as a parent and an adult, as opposed to when I was a kid and I would just lose my shit.
00:14:01
Speaker
I associated it with when I was younger, like movies where I wish I had a good example of it. But like, you know, maybe there's coming coming of age stories as dramas where, you know, you can relate to the main character because they're going through something similar or whatever. And then they. lose control and start crying and they explode and are angry. But but there's a sense to it when I would watch those movies when I was a kid, like that's kind of like I don't want to say cool, but like there was something about it that I kind of of like I related to it, but also was like yeah, like that kid is troubled and and so am I. And, you know, ah there's a yeah there was something, i don't know how to describe it, but there was a, I um i don't know. do do Does that make sense? like i do. In fact, you know, going back to how we got introduced, it feels like there's something here as well. Is that in the presence of loss and as people are grieving, it's almost like a license for the troubles to come forward to a degree. Yeah.
00:15:03
Speaker
And, and so what, what's, what is what is that coming from? And even if we don't know, like what there, there's something in that movie. We, yeah yeah the the lines are, I just want to be liked. I want you have three different men who are each trapped in their own troubles and,
00:15:23
Speaker
and But it feels less romantic than than what you had just described as a as a kid doing, being appealed to those things. is but what's What's going on there? It's dysfunctional. Like, it's it's not. It's the young woman in the movie, like, basically looks at all of them like, you guys are idiots. Like, you guys are.
00:15:44
Speaker
There's something wrong with you guys, which is the point of the movie. I mean, we're seeing the. We're seeing them through her eyes. um But it doesn't. It's not as glamorous. That's the word I was looking for. It's glamorous. Like, it's not like that as an adult. Like, it's more like you're fucked up. Like, you need to you need to learn to take care of whatever it is you're going through right now. It's different. And there's not as much sympathy to be had.
00:16:10
Speaker
i think um people just look at you and you're just like, you need to take care of your life. You need to figure that out. You know, you're you're a grown man. I don't know that that's necessarily the right thing because it's not like men can't have feelings too. Men are looked to be they're looked at to be stoic and they like not express their feelings. and you know So when it does happen, it's surprising.
00:16:33
Speaker
I, you know, and I think that's the, you know, that's the whole point of the movie is that men don't know how to do that because we're expected to be stoic. We're expected to, to not be emotional and to have our shit together. And most men that I know don't, yeah you know, we just, we look like we do, but we don't. And we don't know how to talk to each other. We don't know how to, like, I i have a hard time sometimes talking to my spouse because I don't, I don't sometimes, i mean, I've said to her, like, I don't know what's wrong.
00:17:01
Speaker
i I can't physically can't tell you right now why I'm feeling this way. I just know that I'm angry about something and I don't know why. So and then I take some time and think about it and then I'll come back later and be like, I figured out what what it was. And this is it. I think it's a societal thing
Societal Expectations of Stoicism in Men
00:17:16
Speaker
for sure. Like, I mean, I think that that's just it's just the way it's been for decades and it's not healthy. I mean, there are times where you have to be stoic, right? There are times where you have to be... i don't want to use... ah Emotionally stable is not the right term that I want to use here. but But there are times where you just need to get through whatever you get through, whether it's, you know, like your your job or something like...
00:17:39
Speaker
And don't even know if that's a positive thing. Honestly, I don't know. yeah Like, is is there a positive to it? i yeah I think for me, the the part of what it's calling to, setting aside the formula of what it means to be a stoic, is is that aspect that's saying there's a tremendous amount of uncertainty that whatever time we're allotted here on Earth... Nothing is certain except for those things that maybe are on the horizon that we work towards. And what what the reason we do that is because there's something about the dance between the inherent uncertainty of being here and the establishing of some stability. So that for you and I mean, that's one thing I hear within your story is is that this aspect of of what you grew up with was deep instability. It was us a significant amount of instability, of lack of security, of the things that when you're at that age where there are formative things happening developmentally, there's not a lot we can control in this world, but there are some things we do want to control as a component of the legacy that we're building. And so that stoicism is calling towards
00:18:50
Speaker
That legacy aspect that says we build things to provide stability for those that are coming next that need that stability in order to confront the uncertainty of the world that we're all going to get to. So so that's i don't know what your reaction is to that, but that's. No, I can relate to that. So that I'm glad that you said that because, yes, I mean, that was all when I moved out of my aunt's house at
Influence of Charlie's Grandfather
00:19:14
Speaker
18. I told myself, OK, I swear I'm not ever going to rely because my my mom, you know, was never still. i mean, she's like 82 and she's still not financially stable.
00:19:25
Speaker
She asked me to borrow money ah last week. You know, like I swore that I would never ask anybody for money and I haven't. I swore that I would be you like, i mean, this wasn't like me, like making some proclamation, but it was just internally like, i'm I'm like, I'm not putting my family through this. Like, I mean, I knew I was going to get married at some point. I wanted kids and my job was to provide a stable of a household as I possibly could, at least, you know, with a house, with a roof over our heads, a running car, some money money coming in And the emotional part is what I'm still working on. um, but um
00:20:00
Speaker
Yeah, it you know, and I wouldn't even say like, I i feel like I'm painting myself in a bad life. Like, I feel like I'm a very good dad. But I, you know, like everybody, we have our faults. And that's something that I'm aware of.
00:20:13
Speaker
I think this this is a potentially interesting place to bridge in back into that grief conversation. That loss itself is a stark reminder of the uncertainty of things.
00:20:27
Speaker
Loss, you you just can't escape it as quickly. And so what comes forward in that grief is is almost this aspect of grieving the loss of whatever stability you did get to experience for a period of time. Or...
00:20:43
Speaker
Grieving the loss of somebody who was that one anchor for you that could provide you some degree of stability, I'm i'm guessing was partially what your grandfather represented it to you was some degree of stability.
00:20:56
Speaker
Talk to me. Talk to me about that. Yeah, he. um Man, I haven't talked about my granddad in a long time. I called him Papa and he, um you know, his. So, you know, my mom was his daughter and then my uncle obviously was his son. And, um ah you know, he was aware of of her drinking and and But also ah kind of enabled it from from the stories that I've heard and just or an enabled like, you know, like give her money and stuff like that, you know, when she needed it. um But then when we went to go live with my aunt, he actually like moved in and helped like like kind of help take care of us. Um, and, uh, so he'd come pick us up after school, um, take us go get ice cream. Like he was a good cook and was just there to help support my aunt, especially after, um, uh, you know, she got, she's, divorce you know, she got divorced from my uncle. Um, and, uh, just was a good man. i mean, like, you know, I still have, um, his, you know, he was like an all American football player, all all state, all American. ah so he had these trophies and these plaques, uh, that I, that he gave me before he died. And I, I still have them. Um, you know, they're, um,
00:22:22
Speaker
In my my kids rooms, but, they' you know, I say like he was just a good guy. He saved like four families from a flood in Nashville when he was in high school, like just well liked by everybody. ah You know, there wasn't anybody who didn't like him.
00:22:38
Speaker
Even like, you know, you're in high school and throughout his life. And then when I knew him, you know, as a granddad, like he knew everybody. And so, yeah, when he died, died of cancer. He smoked. So he died of lung cancer. And it was tough to kind of watch him wither away because, you know, he was always mean, was think he was 75 76 when he died. But was, you it's.
00:23:01
Speaker
but was you know um He wasn't like overweight or anything. like He was just a, he just, besides the smoking, he seemed perfectly healthy, you know?
Charlie's Aspirations and Influences
00:23:12
Speaker
um And then to watch him kind of wither away. And then like, I remember him, his goal was to live long enough to see my sister and I become B'nai Mitzvah. And um I remember he started crying because he was hooked up to all these tubes and he was super, he's like rail thin and he was a afraid he wasn't going to make it. and
00:23:34
Speaker
And I just remember seeing him cry. The only time I'd ever seen him cry. And um and and then he died like a week before. ah Yeah, it was like a week before we were B'nai Mitzvah. And... and That was tough because he was the only male. thing I mean, my uncle was around, but he was the only like positive male figure, you know, around ah for me. you know Like living, like being not having a dad, you're always looking ah for that father father figure, you know, um and my granddad was was that. So when when he died, it was it was yeah, I was, you know, even though we expected it and we knew it was coming, like I i didn't know how to process it.
00:24:14
Speaker
um And, you know, um but yeah, I mean, it was, gosh, I don't know, like, yeah, I mean, it was like losing a dad. But he provided that stability because I always said, i want to be like my granddad, like I want to be a good man in whatever way I can be. And so he it was it was really important. Like he played a really important role, I feel like, and kind of who the the kind of person that i aspire, like still aspire to be. I don't think him about him as much as I used to when I was a kid. I think about him like every day, but I i still think about him. and i still think like, yeah, like I, I want to be, i still aspire to be that, that same kind of guy. bru For you, how long was it before you had another person that stepped into that role? If ever. The synagogue I went to, the the rabbi there was actually like, he was great.
00:25:05
Speaker
He was, ah um he kind of filled that role um after actually, um probably unbeknownst to him, but um he was just a, he was just a cool guy. Like he, um he he was a guy who was not afraid to express um his emotions. Like, I remember that, like he if you know, we'd go to Hebrew school and we did confirmation in high school.
00:25:30
Speaker
um And he was the kind of guy who had a great sense of humor and he, you know, like he loved um pop culture. So like he loved he would bring in like so for his lessons, he would talk about Mad Magazine, right? Or music or baseball. And I remember him being very like I i he made everything super relatable. He also wasn't afraid to ah say like, you know, that he was wrong about something. he had a vulnerability to him um that I admired. um
00:26:00
Speaker
He was, you know, and he he knew all about my family. So he was there for so he knew about my mom. He knew about my uncle. knew about my granddad. He conducted my granddad's funeral. He did our B'nai Mitzvah. Like, he was he was embedded into, you know he he knew you know, he helped my aunt as much as he could. you know, like, he was embedded into our family um like no other person. And then he he ended up leaving, going to another congregation. i think, like...
00:26:27
Speaker
11th grade when I was in 11th grade. I think that's when it was, which was really sad for me because like I really looked up to him and I i didn't I don't know that I told him that I did later. Like I've talked to him, you know, like he's in Florida and every now and then he'll will have a conversation every few years or whatever. But He was terrific. And I remember he got he got upset in class one day. Like we were just being ridiculous. Like i I'm ashamed to think of the kind of behavior we displayed, but it was it was bad. And he got mad. and it And then and then he just and then he he kind of just threw up his arms. He's like, you know, God, maybe I'm just no good at this or something like that. And I remember that because it was the first time seeing him like display that kind of like doubt, which in a weird way, like made me feel better because i was like, oh, yeah, this guy's not perfect. Like he he's having a shitty, you know, he has his breaking point to you. And I remember going up to him and saying, like, I don't I don't think that you are. And I remember telling him that because I didn't want him to. I wanted him to know how much of an impact he had on me. And then ah and then he left. And then years later, after i got married and then our first son was born, i so he came into town the synagogue and he was visiting synagogue and we went to go see him. And I couldn't just from the moment I saw him until he we left, I couldn't I couldn't keep my shit together. got just I mean, I i tried. i didn't I wasn't like.
00:28:00
Speaker
crying like but I was like, i couldn't I couldn't stop. Like, I just i had to kept stopping myself from crying because I it just all bubbled back up that whole period of my life bubbled back up.
00:28:13
Speaker
And for him to be able to see, like, for me, like, see, like, I'm not failure. Like, because that was kind of what I thought. Like, growing up, was like, I don't know. I don't think I'm, you know. I felt like I was not going to be successful. Other people felt like I was not to Because I just wasn't a good student. wasn't good.
00:28:30
Speaker
I didn't have any ambitions. I was kind of, I just didn't care, honestly. And so I was, I felt like i had something to prove, I guess, you know? there's There's something about what you just said in terms of being seen in improving. And I think that, that aspect of kind of the role of what is asked of men to provide stability, to prove that they can provide stability. What is it about being witnessed or feeling that we're just,
00:29:00
Speaker
supporting characters, providing the stability and having to hide the messiness of it, having to hide the tears. What is it about that that just feels sometimes defeating?
00:29:11
Speaker
Because I don't feel like we're understood. i don't feel like we're allowed to have emotions. If you're going to associate any kind of emotion with men, it's going to be like angry or stressed or i don't know if stress is emotion, but but but any other any other kind of, you know, sadness or grief or crying. I mean, that's that's kind of age old. stereotype, right? Like, bed aren't supposed to cry. Like, no matter how hard I fight against that stereotype of like, you know, it's okay to cry. It's fine. Like, I still have a hard time, like, being comfortable enough to be able to do that in front of people. um And I don't know why.
00:29:49
Speaker
You know, like it's it's so deeply embedded, I think. And in in our gender role, um it's really hard for people to understand. And I guess when I say people, I say, i mean, women, I think like, i you know, um Because women stereotypically, generally, like, have an easier time talking about their feelings than men do. Because we're expected to be stoic and be, you know, um providers or... yeah And however you want to define that, you know, not necessarily like...
00:30:26
Speaker
You know, whatever that looks like, the emotion, you know, the emotional stability, you know, men are emotionally stable or they're the ones that are, you know, making more money or whatever, which is not the case in my household at all. Like my my wife makes more money than I do. I'm a music journalist. So. I mean, she's in public education, which isn't much better, but, you know, compared um um comparatively, comparatively. mean, I've been laid off twice. And the second the first time was it. I ended up freelancing full time and it was fine. The second time before I got my job and it was it was tough. It was a year where i I couldn't even I could barely get freelance work. And I went through some shit like emotionally because i I didn't feel like I was providing. I i went through a depression where I just didn't know what I was doing to contribute to the family. I'm just I was just here. i was sending out my resume every day. i applied to hundreds of jobs. I never I heard back from like three maybe. And I was just like, I don't I don't know. For the first time in life, I don't have a job and I don't know what I'm going to do. i mean, literally, that was the first time since I was a teenager where I had not worked because I just had to strive to to be stable, you know, because of how I grew up. And that was a. Yeah, I mean, I remember my wife having a we had a few conversations about that because she's just like, you're I don't know how to help you. And I'm like, I i just can you get me a job? Because that would it that would help.
00:31:51
Speaker
You know, like, I just I don't know what I'm doing to provide for this family at all. I mean, besides, like, I'd pick up the kids and from school, I'd take them to school and and things like that. But now that I'm working at home, you know, even though I'm i'm not making as much money, which is insane. I don't like that's not a thing for us. Like we just we make we're able to make our bills. We live comfortably, but we're nobody is aspiring to make, you know, a lot of money or whatever. Like I drive my car is 22 years old. And you what mean? Like, it's just we just want to be happy. We want to raise good kids. And but part of that for me in providing that stability is like showing my boys like, hey, like,
00:32:32
Speaker
I know it's 2025, but there are a lot of people who think that these gender roles like men should do certain things and women should do certain things. But I really like um doing the dishes and washing clothes and picking up the kids from school. And, you know, and and my job allows me to do that because I work from home. But, um you know, she and because her job, she's at school and she's in ah administration, like it requires more of her time. And and I'm happy to. So. I'm happy by that other sort of stability. Like maybe it's not financial all the way, but it it is like I'm hoping to run the household and I i don't I like that, you know, because it gives it does give me a purpose and it it and it gives me extra time with the kids, you know? And um so, yeah, um i I just think it's interesting. i haven't really thought about that, but like how that need for stability for me personally, but then also that kind of that role of provider has morphed over the years. This might seem a little bit out of left field, but what was your world of imagination and world building like as you were growing up? It's funny you should ask
Escapism and Pop Culture in Charlie's Life
00:33:38
Speaker
that. I was always in my head. Always.
00:33:40
Speaker
i mean, my escape was pop culture. My escape was movies. My escape was music. My escape was reading. My escape was playing with my toys when I was you know younger. um i had a vivid imagination, a very fit. And it kind of makes me sad that i i so I don't feel like I had that imagination anymore. But like, man, I was always making movies in my head ah all the time.
00:34:04
Speaker
um I remember, you know, I was a big G.I. Joe guy. Star Wars, Transformers, I mean, your typical kind of Gen X um kid who would create these big battle scenes like with my friends or even by myself to like and just ah I just got into it so much ah because it was my escape from from reality, which was not fun at all. uh, you know, um ah movies, you know, going to the theater to watch movies. I remember like back to the future was a huge one for me, like just that escapism. uh, you know, and then as I got older, like thinking about, uh, You know, I would just, um you know, like even in my my teenage years, like, you know, i was a big Beatles fanatic. And so that was an escape for me. Beatles and and other kinds of music.
00:34:58
Speaker
um Reading. So I read a lot, ah you know, nonfiction fiction um um and was just always you always in my head um uh creatively um and just always kind of you know would live vicariously through these other characters these fictional characters or or you know ah bands or whatever like um Yeah, i I felt like I related a lot to John Lennon because he had a similar childhood. And so that was a big thing for me. um Yeah. And i I kind of miss that ah as a model because I i don't ah just, you know, i think I could spark it again. i just haven't.
00:35:42
Speaker
Yeah. um But yeah, I was I mean, there it it was pop culture was a coping mechanism for me, for sure. This aspect of world building, males are very focused and become all consumed in this this world, um this imaginal. And and I'm curious if if you see any connection between that ability as when we're younger, whether it's a coping mechanism or whether it's something that's a part of our expression, to just imagine possibility and to build worlds around that, that function and move off of each other.
00:36:18
Speaker
That eventually getting put sometimes co-opted into, well, now do that so that it provides us all stability. Imagine a world where you use your your imagination to build the structures, the institutions, these pieces to provide stability.
00:36:37
Speaker
And that something in that turn happens where the we lose the fun of it. I guess it's just getting older. Like, i um yeah, i you I really thought about like that, but ah it is like i have kind of worked to build this certain world for myself. Right. Like when I was a kid, this world of stability, I guess, um and creating this life for myself, which is not what I thought it would be when I was younger. i mean, i had all these aspirations to do all these big things. And and ah ah i now it's more like, OK, I've got this world. i need to maintain it. um And I, you know, like for my job, like it's I love my job and I i love interviewing musicians and and writing about them. but also it's, ah you know, it's also work and it's also like, know,
00:37:29
Speaker
It's for me right now, I feel like I'm in kind of like got to maintain mode. Like there's no imagination to it. It's it there's no fun to it. It's like, right. Like we just got to get through this day. and And part of that for me, honestly, is like, you know, I'm raising two teenage boys. But, you know, um you know, my younger son has his Down syndrome. And that's a that throw there's a whole other layer into like we just got to get through the day.
00:37:53
Speaker
Like, which sounds pessimistic and negative, and it's not meant to sound that way, but it's like some days like I had to go um he was taking the bus. The bus picks him up at home and drops him off in the afternoons and in the mornings. And the other morning he'd gotten out of a seat and won't get back in a seatbelt. And they called me. The bus driver called me and I had to go to the bus.
00:38:15
Speaker
and talk to him and get him to stay in a seat. You know, and it's things like that or like being called by the school and like, hey, we need your help to, you know, to get your kid under under control because of his behavior. You know, he's making bad choices or whatever. And because they don't have the facilities to kind of help him thrive. And so there are days where I'm just like, I'm just trying to get through the day. So I forget about the funness of it. i Like, I think that I think a lot about I always think about kind of that 50s stereo, 50s housewife stereotype or or like that Rolling Stone song mothers a Mother's Little Helper, you know, where um you know she's popping pills to kind of maintain, you know, because she's doing all the things around the house and and then not being treated, you know, Fairly by her husband and and men and and all that. And um I don't. it this That's not the same situation. But I I but I can sympathize with that because like I there are times where I I i do sometimes sometimes I'm like, feel like I'm a little bit of a prisoner right now because of just because of my my my sense like needs. um You know, if you want to about grief like that, that's a whole other thing.
00:39:29
Speaker
thing of grief that, that you know, i haven't even really thought about in years, but like getting that diagnosis of like, you know, your, your kid's got down syndrome. What does that mean? Uh, for you, what does that mean for your family? And, and, and, um, that was, uh, uh, That was tough. And, you know, when he was younger, um it wasn't much of a struggle. But as he's getting older, we're seeing those differences of, yeah, he he's he's not like the other kids. Like he's developmentally behind behaviorally. He's behind like we're in as he's getting older, he's just getting further behind. And so now that reality is setting in. And that's a that's been a a challenge to deal with. um Yeah. And so there are days where, ah you know, we do feel like we're surviving or I feel like I'm I'm just surviving.
00:40:16
Speaker
There's something about what you just talked about in terms of this topic of grief as well. um And connecting for me to that imagination is is that a lot of the progression of time and the taking on of the responsibilities has come with the reconciliation of, can I even imagine a world where where I'm going to be able to play again? where where and and And when you have diagnosis to that degree, and you start seeing the the so the the road ahead of you start getting paved with
00:40:49
Speaker
what seems like very firm bricks that are immovable. like this that That aspect of survival, that aspect of endurance seems to be like, well, this is just the way it is. And and yet there's something about that call to to that imaginal, to that imagination that said like, I mean, when we were younger, we could imagine a world where miracles did happen, where miracles where things were possible. And and and a part of of that grieving is saying that I'm also grieving the fact that I can't even imagine the possibility where some of these things might live, where play might live, where feeling carefree or some degree of freedom
00:41:29
Speaker
isn't overshadowed by the demands of the responsibilities that that I now am beholden to. and and And part of being that male who who is expected to provide that stability is to say like, well, I've just got to get back I've just got to redirect whatever resources I have towards rebuilding a world that provides that stability, that whether that's schedules, whether that's guardrails, whether that that are contingency plans. and And it feels like, well, this isn't this isn't play anymore. Living doesn't have that fun aspect to it any longer.
00:42:06
Speaker
That's, yeah, your thoughts on that? So my wife and I just got finished celebrating our 20 year anniversary. We went to Vegas, took a four day trip to Vegas. And I it was something that we had been planning for months. And ah that was the first time in a long time that we like I i felt like we were in our 20s again. feel like we were dating.
00:42:28
Speaker
to an extent like we just didn't have an agenda didn't you know because i remember telling her on that trip i was like i'm having a hard time not like wanting to schedule everything and not have like okay we need to do this and we need to do this and we need to do this and we made it a point to just not have an itinerary And it was very freeing. And then coming back to the reality on Sunday, we came we came back home and I said, man, it feels like I'm getting slapped in the face right now with reality. Like just everything that happened could have happened that did happen, you know, and it took I took like a day a day and a half to really kind of get like, OK, OK, OK. Like, um, I think I've got my bearings now, like just getting adjusted back daily life. Um, and I forgot what, just forgot like what it was like to, um, not have to worry about the kids or, or, um, you know, um, what needed to be done next. Uh, you know, uh,
00:43:36
Speaker
I imagine she felt the same way. It was, ah it was great. um But, it but it also reminded me like, yeah, I don't, um i I have a tendency to be very serious and not as much fun as I used to be.
00:43:53
Speaker
And I struggle with how to bring that back. um And I haven't figured it out yet, but um I'm trying. I just have a hard time letting loose. Like I've always been that way anyway, very uptight, but like even more so now.
00:44:07
Speaker
Like I just like even the way I look hold my shoulders up and like I'm just kind of stiff. And, ah you know, ah there's been times where I'm like, do I even have a sense of humor anymore? Like, where did it go? Like, I don't know what happened to it.
00:44:24
Speaker
It just and and honestly, like just kind of sad sometimes like and not just an underlying like sadness um because i guess I haven't allowed myself the time or the opportunities to um figure out how to get it back. I guess if that makes sense.
Importance of Therapy and Emotional Expression
00:44:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:44
Speaker
mean, therapy is helping with that. That's partly why I started going back to therapy was just because I i knew I needed to do something ah to get out of my funk, um you know, or Yeah.
00:44:56
Speaker
um Well, and deal with trauma that I hadn't, you know, head I'm going to trauma therapy, so I hadn't dealt with the stuff that I thought that I had dealt with was creeping back up in my life. And so i was like, yeah, i got it I got to I got to. I gotta do something because I'm very reactionary I, you know, it's not fun to be that way. It's interesting that you you say that. um This brings me back to where we started with the the movie The Wake.
00:45:20
Speaker
And there's there's two things for me is that, the you know, I think the postulate that we were talking just about and what you gave with your example of going to Vegas, an adult playground, yeah and and playing again. ah mirrors very much the ah in the movie when you know after after the official wake, they these they go and they seek to play. But there's something nuanced about the way we play and and that...
00:45:51
Speaker
you know that that there's That maybe be part of that male aspect of not being or knowing how to grieve well in our solitude or or also together is is that our expression of play has gotten to a point where in the movie it's expressed that the play is more of an escape from self leveraging other people as collateral damage in that self soothing as opposed to something that's done more akin to the way we played when we were young collaboratively in a way that is is is everybody has a role that we're calling we're creating invitation into expression
00:46:34
Speaker
and And that we don't necessarily know how to do that in these moments of of the world falling down. Loss and the world falling apart and being destabilized that we may be reach for some imagination and world building, but we do it in a way that and and um is immature. The immaturity is the collateral damage that we create within that loss. And that we don't have elders coming alongside saying, hey, you do need to play. You do need to go express and rebuild and reimagine the world. But we need to do this in a way that has some health attached to it.
00:47:13
Speaker
Yeah, it could also be, I think we also have a tendency to be self-destructive in our play. In that movie, I didn't necessarily relate to those characters as far as like the things that they did, but I related to them in the way that they handled things or didn't handle or didn't confront things, maybe is a better way of saying it. Um, I know that I make it a point, at least with most of my friends or or some of my friends, some of my my closer friends, um, we do have pretty deep conversations.
00:47:45
Speaker
And we do kind of use each other as like therapists, like, you know, like sounding boards, um whether it's, um you know, ah sort relationship problems or, know, like with my friend Brian, like death of our our friend or, you know, probably my best friend Jason, who I've known since we were like three years.
00:48:04
Speaker
who knows everything that's happened. Like we know which we know everything there is to know about each other and we'll know how to console each other and talk about like we've talked about
Facing Mortality and Embracing Emotions
00:48:14
Speaker
death. We've talked about like, ah you know, we're in our late 40s now or I'm 50 now, like in and death for the first time is very we're we've lived longer on this earth. ah We've lived more years on this earth than how much longer we have that that it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. there's there's There's more years, more time behind you than there is ahead of you. and of us Yes. and Statistically speaking.
00:48:37
Speaker
Right. And that that it that, I remember that hitting pretty hard. Like, and we, I remember my friend Jason and I and my friend Brian, we separate conversations, but just like, just an immense sadness for some reason, like,
00:48:51
Speaker
Yeah, like the realization that um we're not going to to be here forever. And then like no more memories, no more loved ones, no more. but like And then what happens after that? i You know, ah if you're a religious person, maybe you believe in heaven. um That's not really something I think about. So I i i don't know. Nothing, I guess. You know, and that that's a... that's a That's a scary thing.
00:49:16
Speaker
And it has hit hard for at least two of my friends. But I imagine it's something that everybody goes through. um ah It's um yeah, I don't I don't know. Like I haven't really thought much about it since. But um that was a few months ago.
00:49:33
Speaker
um but yeah, I don't know. Like um what the nature of the things for you. That was so sobering about that. um i'm a pretty nostalgic person um and so when my friend jason and i were talking about we were driving through old our old neighborhood because we were lived and grew up in the same neighborhood um um and uh i just remember it was weird i just remember thinking like i'm not gonna have any more memories that was the big thing like i'm i'm not gonna have any more memories i i just won't like and those are always comforting for me like
00:50:09
Speaker
Um, that was like the, the big thing for some reason is what struck me the most. And then thinking like, well, and then my loved ones, like I won't be around for them anymore. um and i mean, that's where kind of the bit two big things. Um, yeah, uh, I don't, I don't know. i don't know what the memories thing means, but, um, that, that was the very first thing that struck me probably cause we were in our old neighborhood driving around, I guess, but we had parked, uh, and we're having lunch. Um, yeah. Yeah.
00:50:38
Speaker
How have the conversations that you've had with those that other men in your life, your other friends, have those conversations surprised you because you didn't expect them? You did expect them or, or what is that doing for you and many each of you? It was, I think it was comforting for, for, I'm going to speak for them, but I think it was comforting for all of us. Like, yeah.
00:51:00
Speaker
We didn't all feel better at the end, but it was like, yeah, no, I i just went through the same thing. Like, I i know how you're feeling right now. ah so So it was comforting and in the fact that we knew that we all kind of shared that sentiment, but not comforting because it's like, well,
00:51:18
Speaker
nothing we can do about it. i don't know. Like, and it was like this in all the instances, it was this kind of uncontrollable sadness. Like that was, you know, that we couldn't, and it, you know, it happened at different times for each of us, but it was that revelation of like, yeah, like i just, I got really down about it or like a whole day and just thinking about it and just couldn't, it just washed over me. And I was sad for the rest of the day and that had never happened before. um But knowing that it happened to them ah made me think, well, man I guess this is normal, you know, as you get older. as ah You know, I don't know if women go through that or not, but it seems like men go through that at some point in their lives, you know, at least once. Sure it'll happen again and again and again, you know.
00:52:04
Speaker
What I hear you saying is is that there's a discovery happening where, oh, actually, there is some stability to be found in the communication with others and the realization that, oh, i'mm I'm not just carrying this on my own. Yeah.
00:52:22
Speaker
that that That's something that is a little bit, it feels like to me, a stolen opportunity in the myth of of of man needing to just be stoic and and and to provide stability for everyone else. that In order to actually fulfill that in a way that continues to be playful, we we actually need the playground of our brother's who know how to share these things without being ridiculed for it, without being to shot, to shy away from it.
00:52:54
Speaker
There's something you said. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's something earlier you said in terms of my experience with tears. I think part of the reason why I talk to other other men who are so unsettled by women crying and feel like disempowered almost by the fact that I don't know what to do in this undermines actually my experience and's with tears actually being fairly stabilizing. That that it is a relief valve. That it it actually brings more stability by increasing the repertoire of tools available rather than this sheer willpower and domination for keeping a a stoic front. and And that's the inherent like myth that we're but holding ourselves accountable to is, is that you have to do it this way and this way. Yeah, I can completely agree. Like I, I used to be a big crier when I was younger. I cried all the time, not all the time, but I cried a lot.
00:53:48
Speaker
And for various reasons, I was watching a movie or whatever. Like you put me in front of the ET and I watched that movie and I will cry every single sleep, every single time. Yes. Not only because of the nostalgia of it, because I remember seeing it in the theater, but it's just a great story. It's, you know, um and so I will guaranteed every single time we'll cry.
00:54:08
Speaker
i used to cry a lot at ah but a Field of Dreams, of course, like father son movies ah because of my dad's situation. um i do find it harder these days to get some tears out. Yeah.
00:54:23
Speaker
Not because I'm not wanting to. i think it's just this automatic pilot that we're on, you know, where you're just like, oh it's not, you know, you're not. What if somebody judges me or laughs at me or whatever? um But it is something that um I completely agree. Like, I do feel better, you know, whether those are tears of joy or tears from watching a movie or the death of a loved one. Yeah.
00:54:47
Speaker
I do. i I feel better every single time. And I i tell my kids that. Like, it's it's okay. Like, it's fine. And, ah you know, it's don't ever be afraid to cry. um Because it's... ah Yeah.
00:55:00
Speaker
Because it is a release valve. It does help you feel better. And there's nothing to be ashamed about it. And we're not we're not... You know, we're not all John Waynes. Nor do we need to be John Wayne. You know, like, that's that's ah that's a thing for me. That's a thing of the past. Although not to get political, but like...
00:55:17
Speaker
the landscape is shifting back toward that. Yeah. Uh, which is counterproductive, but, um, uh, yeah, like i don't want to live in a world like that anymore. You know, like I, I, um, there's a, I think there's a balance to it all, you know, and, and men are, are, I think, um, I think we've been shortchanged and how people perceive us to be, I think, uh, we're much more nuanced than people i think for decades have, um, given us credit for, for sure.
00:55:47
Speaker
I think, i mean, there's a couple of things I know we're wrapping up here. And and one of one of the big things that that I've heard um within our conversation, and and I think, yeah, we I'll say something that I think is um is more axiomatic and rather than that that doesn't need to be defended is is that if if we were to pull people right now with with what the world feels like destabilized would be one that most people would say at the very least we feel some degree of destabilization in our attempts to that that's that there is actually a virtue to stability there is actually something about that that we've that that that inherently has somewhat of a drive within yeah yeah masculine energy. and And yet there's something about that we've forgotten how to do that. we we we don't, the tools that we have overemphasized, the tools that we have thought, well we're just basically playing like with with only two tools and that there are more available to us, but we don't know that
00:56:53
Speaker
anymore. And when it comes to loss and grief, it feels like there's, when something initiates us into that, that window of grief, it almost feels a little bit like me to, uh, like remember here, like that you, you knew how to play and reimagine the world in a way that was more aligned with your values, with the legacy, with the stability that is real tangible stability, not manufactured, but you've forgotten how. And, and that a little bit of what we've I think danced around is, is that we're, we're relearning. We, we, we, we're, we're being reminded that we're capable of this. And if we translate that to the broader landscape, it's, it's that people want it.
Relearning Emotional Tools for Stability
00:57:34
Speaker
That's, that's, that's, we want that degree of,
00:57:37
Speaker
of witnessing, of recognition, of of being valued for bringing that aspect. But how we do that, how we bring that aspect of stability does matter. And and and destabilizing further is that immature version that some of us are waking up and saying like, no, that's that's even against me. i can't Not only can I not do that against other people, I can't do that against myself. And so in my grief, I can't even use that grief as a means for causing further destabilization. i i need to find the other pilgrims, the other journeymen, the other apprentices that are saying like, no more, let's let's do this differently.
00:58:17
Speaker
differently yeah I think sometimes it it it takes something like a certain level of ah destabilization to make you realize, i guess, going back to what we talked about at the beginning was like um there has to be something that causes dramatic, I guess, dramatic enough to to cause people to say, like, I can't live like this anymore. Like, this isn't how I want to live. i i need to make a change. And I think collectively, like you said, I think we're going through that very slowly.
Collective Change and Future Aspirations
00:58:49
Speaker
But at some point, i think we're we're getting like, yes, we need to ah we can't do this anymore because. Yeah.
00:58:57
Speaker
um we We need each other more. ah We need to work together more now. And um that's i don't know what I'm thinking with that thought. But what I what i' mean to say is like um there it's happening. It's just ah it's gotten it's getting to a point where I think, like you said, people are are starting to to say, like, we can't we can't live like this anymore. And we want to make a change. And um we need to help each other create that change. And maybe we don't know how to do it, but if we work together, we can do it. we We'll figure it out.
00:59:32
Speaker
You know, and it's by having conversations like this and and just talking to people.
Conclusion and Invitation to Community Engagement
00:59:39
Speaker
Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together. If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
00:59:58
Speaker
And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface level advice, subscribe to our kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com. Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands.
01:00:14
Speaker
And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.