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Goodpain Season 02 Episode 005: The Masculine Principles - Losing Ourselves to the Myths of "Winning"
138 Plays4 months ago
This week we explore what it means to be a bully, a manipulator, a tyrant, and an addict under the siren song of "winning." We ask ourselves how the reductionist and simplistic rules of sports or the battlefield do not serve the versions of leadership to which we aspire and know we are capable of becoming. Yet when we do become the bully or tyrant, we create the reflection of ourselves to which we must choose: will I continue to perpetuate and transmit that pain, or will I humble myself to choose otherwise?
Foir good measure, we also stumble upon an unexpected but welcome late 70s movie reference: Bruce Lee's Circle of Iron is an unsubtle exploration of looking in the mirror. If you are in the mood for storytelling camp and schlock, we recommend this as a starting point.
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Transcript
Introduction and Purpose of the Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
maturity is saying you're right that is the way the world is incentivizing this behavior right now and the only autonomy i have is in my choices to either contribute to that or to say there is the possibility for something else i'm jeremy and i'm tyler welcome to good pain where we talk about life's true intensities without pretending they're easy solve What if the things we're told to fix, optimize, or get over are actually where the real wisdom lives?
Honest Conversations About Life's Challenges
00:00:31
Speaker
Each week we gather for the kind of honest conversations you desire to be a part of more often about the relentless demands, the unexpected grief, the quiet victories, and everything between. Because maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't to eliminate the hard stuff.
00:00:45
Speaker
It's to find the
Hockey Story and Personal Reflection
00:00:46
Speaker
good in it. I've told you joined an old man's happy loop. I think we all realize. There are no scouts in the audience space.
00:00:58
Speaker
There is no real bearing on the outcome of whatever the game score is. um And we all have jobs in the morning, right? So this is really kind of for exercise and some level of camaraderie.
00:01:09
Speaker
Yeah. So I walked into the arena with this recognition. I saw a guy who was carrying a hockey bag and a stick. And I thought, oh, this is probably one of the bad guys on the other side. And so I waved to him. Good morning.
00:01:21
Speaker
He was having none of it. Right. So he was very pissed off from the jump. I don't know why. i don't remember meeting this fellow before. Doesn't matter. But he was just diving into of it. So then we get into the game.
00:01:33
Speaker
I was playing defense that day. He was a forward. so we were spending a lot of time in proximity to each other. Out of nowhere, this internal recognition of being pissed off came out of me and ah I was just chirping him the whole way. Are you familiar with the expression chirping? Yeah. Okay. I mean, you are practiced in the dark arts of wind up is what I am hearing you say. You crushed it. Perfect. So I'll give you an example.
00:01:56
Speaker
He had one clear ah vision and mission for the day and that he wanted to win. And that was his thing. I also share that sentiment. One of us has the ability to back it up with speed or skill or accuracy at all that.
00:02:09
Speaker
It was not this dude, not that day. So ah he, I was defending him. He was coming down. he took a shot, missed the net by a mile. And so I was not going to let that slide because of the the wrong that he did to me in the parking lot. This is so petty.
00:02:23
Speaker
This is so wrong. But I let him know. I'm like, oh, wow, you missed the whole net. That must be embarrassing. And that's it. I didn't need to say these words. It did not help his outcome yeah nor his um his view of the world. But that was very much bully behavior. And afterward, I'm like, who were you? What why what was helpful about that? There
Competition, Bullying, and Maturity
00:02:41
Speaker
was nothing. I felt good in the moment, but it was also very stupid and petty.
00:02:45
Speaker
Part of the the trash talking and the mind games and the energy that's that is associated with that is about trying to poke and prod for weakness. And and I think that that's... ah Look, I think poking and prodding for weakness and and where things need to be strengthened is one thing. Poking and prodding for weakness for the purposes of exploitation starts to cross a boundary for me that says you're no longer actually testing your metal against their metal.
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah. Your skill against their skill. You're finding a way to bring them down to a level in which you feel you can compete and losing the plot yeah for why we're doing this in the first place. Hmm. And that's where you're doing this because in your mind, the ultimate thing that defines all of this is singularly winning.
00:03:42
Speaker
That at the end of the day, I must win. Competition is real. Even the way you've described these things, having the physical ability to show dominance is a form of competition. Yeah.
00:03:55
Speaker
But you're... Wisdom comes in where you've chosen to step back in this case where just I've done what I can do. I don't need to do more. I've proven this to myself. Also, I've shut them up. Yeah. Yeah. That's huge. It goes into, I mean, i think, I can't remember if we mentioned this in a previous episode and this has played deeply into what has happened in my and Tiffany's life and what we cover in season one. But growing up, I had a deep sensitivity.
Handling Bullying with Integrity
00:04:21
Speaker
ah art my second ah all of All of our daughters do as well. But in particular, my second has carried that banner in ways that were very similar to me is is is befriending vulnerable populations, kids with special needs, Down syndrome, autism. And you want to talk about raging is if I see some degree of any individual using that as license to make someone feel smaller. No way. and this is the interesting thing about the archetype of, of being a bully is, is that you just, say someone decides to step in and bully someone who is vulnerable. Yeah. I will adopt that tact of bully.
00:05:07
Speaker
Sure. Right back. It's kind of the only language that you're both able to speak at the moment, right? I mean, that's the only thing that's recognized as a as a communication method. Because asking politely, hey, that was really a messed up thing to say. That's not going to land on any ears of the person doing the bullying. It's it's it's one where i would say i i do understand the reaction of Tyler when he was 10, 11, 12, and up But over time, I've started to recognize more that meeting that conversation that has been initiated as a bullying conversation to somebody else isn't necessarily best met with bullying right back.
00:05:52
Speaker
Okay. So I think there's an immediacy to the response. yes You recognize there's wrongdoing here. yep You can go into that mode, yeah but tell us more. you're You're talking about there's no real value of jumping into that, or you don't want to put yourself into that mode again. I think that for me, it goes back to, it's easy to see the virtue, especially when you're talking about somebody who cannot fight for themselves of standing up to the bully yeah and saying that that takes a degree of confidence and and moral ethic or or morality to say, this is wrong. I will stand up to this bully. To use the the tools of the bully or the language of the bully, at that age reflects that, yeah, you're meeting... it goes it goes back to the trash talking, right? is Is that I get two responses. On one, it creates a sense of respect drawing that line or invites them further into testing, into... in
00:06:51
Speaker
And I think we've all experienced this, even that picture that says some individuals would say, I don't want you to stand up for me. Don't stand up for me because if you stand up for me, what you do is you invite more repercussions down on my head. just let and And so going back to the response itself, as a 10-year-old in my youth, standing up for that, I'm using the tools that are at my my disposal. Right. But there is something to say is is that if the bully is seeking to find weaknesses and to exploit those in order to drive a certain behavior for himself, if I'm then doing the same thing for the bully, does the fact that I'm doing it on behalf of protecting somebody make it more moral or ethical? Mm-hmm.
00:07:39
Speaker
and And increasingly, as I've gotten older, the answer is is no. My desire to protect, my desire to shield and to does does not justify the the choice of tool that I reach for.
00:07:55
Speaker
Okay. Becoming a bully to defeat the bully. Sure. I'm not convinced is the more mature thing to do. So obvious follow-up to that. Yeah. I think I like what you're saying to hold true to your beliefs and values. The follow-up then to that would be, then do you just let the comments go? do you allow that behavior to perpetuate and do nothing? Yeah.
00:08:17
Speaker
what What is, what is the approach that you think is more in keeping with where morality lives? I think the maturation away from the bully, even what I would say is like the virtuous bully.
Personal Growth and Sports as Life Analogies
00:08:31
Speaker
That's, that's kind of what we've said here. Okay. Is, is that what I said is, is not the end of the road. And I and i feel that oftentimes that's where we get stuck as men is believing that bullying behavior is okay under certain circumstances. And and really what we're saying is is that it's the relationship to what it means actually to be a bully is is that I can choose to not respond with with a bully behavior that might actually look very, very similar. Yeah.
00:09:00
Speaker
I can step in front of the vulnerable and say, look, I don't know what is what is driving this. I don't know where this is coming from. But if you need me to, if you need someone to to pick apart, to demean, to make small because of what you're carrying, wow do it with me. Wow. That will go ahead and live in their head rent-free for the rest of their life i i think that so much of of when I even reflect on the ways that I've shown up in situations that might have some semblance to that kind of an interaction that we had. But but frankly, I'm protecting some version of myself yeah or i or or some version of what I feel is unjust or whatever. that The minute that I...
00:09:45
Speaker
put myself in the position for saying there is something that I must protect here in a way that requires me to become this thing that I say yeah is not actually reflective of who I want to be of who I'm capable of being. Right. Frankly, it's, and and and really what we're doing here is is is is taking apart that that language that we as parents oftentimes tell when our kids are bullied and we say things like, well, look, this is more about him or her than it is about you. And and we also know that there are times where we would say, if if a bully comes up to you and is threatening physical harm on you, you need to stand up to him.
00:10:29
Speaker
Sure. yeah You need to stand your ground. You need to, you need to not shy away from either taking a punch or delivering one. And, and that, because what we're doing is we're talking about the language at a, and the, and the strategies that are ah at the level of the capabilities of those who are involved. And when you're in elementary school or middle school, we're we're saying. Simplifying that yeah is is pretty important.
00:10:55
Speaker
if If I'm 10 year old who decides when a bully steps up to to psychoanalyze him and point out that, you look, I know that you're doing this to me because yeah you are hurting. You're really hurting. I actually don't know, maybe in many cases of a better way to ensure the punch is going to come. Rapidly and in quick concession. Yeah. ah Yeah. I remember in this exact scenario, my principal again in junior high, I don't know if it had to do with my situation I just got earlier or not, i had an all campus meeting and everybody was there. And the principal with straight face advised, if somebody is bullying you, what you should do is pay them a compliment. Hey, I really like your shirt. Yeah. That's the reaction that we all had, but we were to too dumbfounded in the moment to laugh because we were looking at each other like, did we just did you just hear what I heard? That will never work. And we're all thinking about the four or five bullies that we knew. yeah Like, oh yeah, that's never going to play.
00:11:57
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the immediacy of the situation when you're a kid is that that you don't even have the capability of many times from a development perspective of thinking long term. 100%. This is just what's happening in the in the moment. And and so we we we say that you don't have the ability to think long-term. You're in the immediacy of that moment yeah and what's being presented to you. Here's the set of tools that are available to you.
00:12:22
Speaker
Stand your ground, run away. Maybe those are the only ones that we're reasonably thinking you're capable
The Impact of Competitive Mindsets on Relationships
00:12:31
Speaker
of wielding only two tools at a time.
00:12:34
Speaker
But at some degree, we have to confront the fact that what we also know about the maturation of the mind and the maturation of us within a social system is is that we give that. If I was to throw that punch, I risk potentially getting suspended. i Yeah, yeah. Consequences, right? But we know that we collectively have said past a certain point, we actually have expectations that you should at least be able to think more long-term and risk more so that if I'm in a situation where I am in a bar, where you know somebody is doing these things, sure that...
00:13:13
Speaker
Even our consequences aren't, you're just suspended from the bar or kicked out. You can't be back here. These are bigger. You might be in prison. yeah You might face financial impact. but Well, where does that come from? It comes from an inherent belief that we expect to mature our capabilities beyond Just these two options. And yet what we end up communicating oftentimes when it comes to masculinity is that classic phrase of boys will be boys is a reflection that we don't expect ourselves or others to mature past that.
00:13:52
Speaker
Yeah. Well, why do we not expect that? One of the reasons is we've stopped cultivating the wisdom and the training and the apprenticeship of what it means to expand the possibilities of what avenues, what paths we could take in the face of bullying and what we end up perpetuating. When I'm on the field and the immediacy of the situation of saying that this is a 90-minute game and I'm making snap decisions in the moment as you're called to do right then i might adopt a much more similar version of bullying where i am making myself as big as possible i am saying like you're not going to get through me and i'm going to intimidate you with my athletic prowess in order to win the day right here and now but the minute that i step off of that field yeah if i perpetuate that behavior if i bring that into other situations I would have no problem. Well, I should be called an immature asshole.
00:14:57
Speaker
If the shoe fits. That's right. fits Yeah. That's right. Yeah. The thing that's amazing about sport to me is that the people that have experienced some element of success have that switch that they need to flip yeah when they're called into action they're quickly reverse that when they come off because a lot of that behavior is A, socially unacceptable, B, could warrant some legal merits of there's going to be reaction to that, and ah you're not going to have friends. You're not going to advance in the workplace.
00:15:28
Speaker
You will be targeted it as being the next category of possibly a tyrant because it just perpetuates. Here's the problem. People don't know how, well, they may not know that the switch exists, first of all. They may not have the wherewithal to have found it and become familiar with when is appropriate, when is not, to turn that on and turn it off. So this is a real danger because if you've experienced success with that mode, that's a danger to turn off because you think it's going to translate into the rest of the world. It oftentimes does not.
00:15:57
Speaker
when When we become reductionist about all these venues, whether that's community venues, whether that's the office, whether that's the home or when we reduce that to the language of sport. right That is this condensed defined playing field that says what happens on this field stays on this field and it's left on the field. In relationships where I have treated it like the goal here is purely to win. Sure. This moment of a disagreement with Tiffany ah where where my job is to win the argument. Mm-hmm. Well, I've deluded myself into treating it as if what just happens within the bounds of this conversation, like within sports, forgetting that my relationship with Tiffany is not a game. It's not yeah a game to be won. Yeah.
00:16:50
Speaker
And it's with a person who you deeply care about. That's right. Which is not the case when you're competing at somebody. When I confuse that, yeah I become the bully. I am being yeah the bully. Yeah. Yeah. And if I am confusing my validity, my sense of being in the world with whether or not I win. That's a dangerous goal, isn't it? Then I am showing up in these relationships in a way that says, unless I win. Right.
00:17:21
Speaker
I'm not valid. Unless i win, I'm not strong. Unless I win, I'm somehow losing a piece of who I am. So if that's how I am navigating this world is purely based on whether I feel like I'm winning the they the very thing that is in front of me or not.
00:17:41
Speaker
I have lost the plot. You sacrifice too much in that. Yes. For both of you. Yes. And it's not just marriage relationships, but again, workplace, friendship dynamics, yeah all of these things will suffer if you're not fully embracing and holding in a safe place the fact that, oh yeah, we're not adversarial. Yeah.
00:18:01
Speaker
But it's easy to get wrapped up in that. I, this is where it's been challenging to navigate a world that is increasingly not only has recognized that there is an immaturity in general within the masculine population around this relationship to winning
Positive Influence and Ethical Modeling
00:18:21
Speaker
and using that as a, as a very simplistic standard. Yeah. It is now rewarding those that champion that construct. yeah And when I talk to people who are close to me who feel the sense of, I have to participate in this.
00:18:39
Speaker
And yet every single time I participate in it for many people. Not all of them. yeah I feel that I am betraying something within myself that says i can do better.
00:18:53
Speaker
and And we are just reducing ourselves to either being that bully or you mentioned the tyrant or even more so that manipulator. I had a lunch with somebody yesterday who had been in the Church of Latter-day Saints.
00:19:07
Speaker
He was a Mormon and was raised in that space. And and it prompted um remembering a point in my life. I was 18. For the first time, i was legitimately alone.
00:19:19
Speaker
And i actually remember the first experience of that, coming home from work to an empty house. And we had three doctors. And I was overwhelmed with this thing that I really had not been exposed to before, which was, oh, I'm alone. That week that I was i was for the first time alone, early on, a two Mormon elders had come door to door and knocked on the door. Interesting. Please come on in. Let's talk. Can I get you tea? So I was getting ready to go out to work.
00:19:49
Speaker
So I said, Hey, I'm leaving, but I'd love to talk to you about this. Oh my gosh. This the first time act I'm actually reflecting on the fact of there were two things going on. Okay. We're going to get to one of them, which is, is the, the, ah the motivation for where I was at that point was believing in my role as an apologist for the faith. And so this was an opportunity for me to, Hey, we're going to debate. Yeah. Right. So that was that.
00:20:15
Speaker
This is the first time I'm actually putting together with the nature of of how it happened. I asked them, I said, hey, I'm going to be back at this time. That's not going to work for us. Well, how about tomorrow? That won't work for us. How about this day? Wow. You guys are both playing hardball. This is yeah amazing. so So they came back.
00:20:30
Speaker
And we had a four hour conversation and one, i was not alone. i was I was connected to some people, sure even if at this point I disagree with them. But it's an activity that you enjoyed. That's right. The reason why this comes up in the context of this energy of manipulation and what we were talking about with the winning piece is is that apologetics for me was never about finding the truth.
00:20:57
Speaker
I always knew i had the truth. I was already there. i The truth existed. My job was to poke holes in their argument, was to use my intellectual prowess to show them where they were wrong so that I could win the argument. Yeah, totally. What I was not aware of is how much of my training was anchored to all these means of actually manipulating the situation. Maybe not even the the data that I was using or the the arguments themselves, but but to even position it in a way that gave the appearance of winning at times. Looking back at all the instances where I was seeking to test my ability to convince, persuade, or really at its at its core, convince myself that I had won the day, that I had carried the day, that I ignored all the the myriad ways that I was actually manipulating myself into simply believing that I was winning. Right.
00:22:02
Speaker
What do we define as winning? Is the win the standing up to somebody? Is the win having the fortitude to sit within an uncomfortable debate? Most people are not built that way. I think many people would be very uncomfortable with that because it comes back to a fight or flight. If you feel threatened, no fear of physical harm, but just like, hey, listen, we have different opinions. Yeah.
00:22:25
Speaker
I'm not going to stick with this because it feels uncomfortable. Yeah. Right. So the obvious option there is like, okay, I think we're going to agree to disagree. Yeah. And then off you go. What has become increasingly clear is it's my relationship to winning. I've had to mature that over time because as long as my definition, some would, some would argue is like, let go of winning. Yeah.
00:22:47
Speaker
That's a tough, tough concept. I would like to reframe what it means for winning, which is wanting to show up in a conversation or wanting to show up in an interaction in a way that is increasingly more authentic to how I would show up if I could extract myself from time and the fog of war in a situation and see the full picture.
00:23:11
Speaker
We touched on this in the first season when we talked about what are the things that that that help me grant grace or what you... If if we have a bigger picture, if i if I could see that somebody who had cut me off was rushing their child to the emergency room.
00:23:28
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Without that information, if I drive by them and I stare them down, taking my eyes off the road and do it and increasing my own risk and... We've all done that. Yes. well, then I've justified myself and my behavior. I've i've made this person understand how stupid they actually They messed up big. And and the a minute that I figure out or become aware that there is a very real reason for what they did that is actually in line with my values, not only do I abandon this this sophomoric immature version Yeah. of Of, showing up as like thumping my chest. And yeah, I actually get a bigger picture of who I want to be if I become aware of that, which is not only am I, I will blow through shame and guilt. Hmm.
00:24:24
Speaker
Hmm. In the interest of let me clear the path for you. How can I get you there faster? how How can I be the shield? The only thing keeping me from embracing that is the immediacy of my own ego rising up in that moment and telling me I am justified in being a dick. Yeah. As I drive by this person sure and and take my pound of flesh in whatever way makes me feel like I've won in this situation. And the more I find myself stuck there, yeah well, the more I have a choice. I can use that as a humbling or I can double down in trying to build up the apologetics for continuing that behavior. Sure. And I have done that far more often than I have embracing the strength of saying, I
Navigating Personal Integrity Amid Societal Pressures
00:25:21
Speaker
have no idea here.
00:25:23
Speaker
I am not that fragile yeah that I need to thump my chest here and use it this as an example for validating who I am. yeah Yet, I still have that knee-jerk reaction.
00:25:35
Speaker
I find myself becoming the manipulator with the the information that I have at hand. That nature of my relationship to winning is not just about jettisoning the appeal of competition. That is going to be with me.
00:25:51
Speaker
But it is saying that how I frame what equals winning matters, either giving me the license to show up as a bully, as a manipulator, as an addict, as a tyrant, or or at least inviting along in that journey, the fact that winning is bigger for me.
00:26:11
Speaker
If I was able to hit pause right now and step out and say like, what's the bigger story that's going on here? What's the backstory? What's going on with them? yeah I would likely show up differently in this situation than what I'm choosing to. You're describing scenario that is impractical, but I think it's one yeah that i think it's one that happens, but two things need to be in place. yeah We can't continue down this path until we talk about some biology, right? Because I think testosterone for us is a major driver for why the the judgment becomes cloudy, There is singular focus. We talked about it a minute ago about the maturity of of one's brain and be able to see these things as greater than what is in the moment.
00:26:59
Speaker
ah The other thing, though, I think with the dissipation of how much testosterone is taking over and ah driving force for our decisions, there's also an opportunity for us to recognize some element of modeling or leadership that we value.
00:27:17
Speaker
Say, oh, wait a second. They could do the thing that would have pissed me off. And they're able to do it with a smile and confidence and whatever. And I think those are magical things. But if you're missing one of those, right? So testosterone is still huge, but it it starts to dissipate with age, right? But if it's if it's still there, if you haven't reached that peak, for me, it was around 45 for some reason. yeah So be warned. Yes, thank you. Um, but then, um, having year left. so Oh, oh, god oh gosh, this is the time. yeah right did you have to look at And now i have fear.
00:27:50
Speaker
You're welcome for that. yeah That'll never go away. Thank you. Also having some real leadership, some real mentors, some mature men, uh, masculine men that don't have to be, to use your word, don't have to be a dick all the time. You don't have to be a bully. Yeah.
00:28:04
Speaker
And it's like, That is such a powerful opportunity. But the two things are critical in this question about how you get from the, I'm just angry all the time. And this is a form of how this takes shape to, oh, well, can step back. And i I, used to think the same way I did when you were, eight yeah or I was your age or whatever. Um, were those, were there those moments for you where you recognized, um, more the, the modeling?
00:28:31
Speaker
I remember vividly my dad's passion, his competitive expression and, and how it showed up. If there's anywhere where my dad and I are very similar, it's on the field. I could see that. After podcasting, playing soccer. And then when I decided to take a step back, that competitive nature did not dissipate. It traveled with me and it it became even more challenged because playing at at a high level with others who have a similar
00:29:01
Speaker
skill set for me, despite the injuries that ended my career was probably less risky than what I started to find myself and going back to lower leagues that still had some degree of competition, but, but carried a significant amount of risk to it. And one of those was, I did get invited to, to play in a co-ed league at one point. Okay. I remember this moment where because of the nature of how things got started, Tiffany didn't get to come to a lot of my high level games. and Would your behavior have been different if she were in the stands? No. um but What ended up happening was she came to this co-ed game okay and I came off the field at the end of that game and there was a look on Tiffany's face that I had never seen before. was terrified of what you're going say. She saw a version of, she's like, I did not know that person on the field that was so assertive and so aggressive. yeah and And for me, it wasn't aggression. Yeah.
00:30:00
Speaker
It was, i mean, for my role, like it's on that field because of my speed and the stature on the field, you had to get through me and I'm not going to let you get through me. It's not going to happen. And There was a certain point where, um, I can, I can picture, there was a female player on the field, had the ball and I'm standing her up. She's trying to get past me.
00:30:27
Speaker
She decides she's going to try to go right through me. I am standing still. i am, you're not going to get through me and you you can't, you're not going to do this. you And, and she tries to, i don't move at all. And she runs into me and it, is thiss amazing and just falls. Yeah. Yeah. Hit the brick wall, paid the consequence. She turns around and yes. And looks up and she starts blaming me. That's amazing. And yeah at this moment, my eyes flash. Okay.
00:30:57
Speaker
And I got bigger. Yeah. I'm reminded of the expression poking the bear. I don't even know what I said, but I, it was something along the lines of you have no clue yeah what you're capable of doing. Get off the floor and play the effing game. Like this is so bizarre to me. i feel like I've uttered those words, not to ah exact quotes, but I think that sentimentally I've said the exact same thing. yeah It's amazing. I don't know what it is. We all go through this. This is insane.
00:31:31
Speaker
First time Tiffany's seeing this and, and it's compounded by one thing. Yeah. This is, this is a woman laying on the field that has just tried to this mean man. If you want to get into the granular that shirt. The optics of this were very bad. Yeah.
00:31:46
Speaker
And there's something in that moment that, that for me is what was I being in that moment? What is that reflective of who I am? And, and I don't have a clean answer to that. Sure. Because the very thing that, that people, that the world wants me to be at times in terms of the stability and the structure and the wall that, that can, that, that, that the torrents of life can, can,
00:32:15
Speaker
come at my family. They can come at us and I will be that which is broken against, right? The waves will will it make their attempt and yet I will, it the wave will break, not me. I'm the walrus.
00:32:31
Speaker
Um, those are also things that, that I want to be that yeah for my family. I want, i I want to, to say that in what life has to throw with what happened with Claire, yeah someone did need to be that stalwart, the bullwarp
Balancing Competition with Kindness
00:32:51
Speaker
within the midst of the chaos. The stability. Absolutely. And the recognized touchstone for people to go to you when it gets too real or yeah whatever. Yeah.
00:33:01
Speaker
and and and ah And this is the part I think that I want to be that, but there there are things outside of me that the external world says that they want that as well. Oh, that's true.
00:33:12
Speaker
Nothing that happened on that field actually mattered. sure My wife and my three daughters were in the stands. What I should have done ah was reach down. Hindsight is always 20, make sure she was okay. Extend my hand and help her up. And this goes back to that picture of like, well, look, was she, i could rationally say yeah,
00:33:35
Speaker
were we're This is part of the game. sure This is the nature of what happens. And for her to act like I was in the, like I could come up with the rationale that says, if you're going step on that field, this is war. This is the, but the game is, it's not. And and the game, me defining is,
00:33:55
Speaker
limiting the definition of winning to just what's happening on that field rather than saying that there is an opportunity that's being presented here for me winning in much bigger ways that are much more aligned with me doesn't say that I always need to pick that moment to offer my hand.
00:34:14
Speaker
But allowing myself to be immature to the level that i live formulaically that says in any given circumstance, this is just who I'm going to be rather than cultivating the recognition that actually what I want right now is not to win an argument. What i want is actually to be curious. Yeah. What I want is to to cultivate conditions for being surprised with with the possibility of showing up as someone that is not just reacting to the immediacy of the situation. yeah
00:34:47
Speaker
Sometimes the immediate of the immediacy of the situation will require a split moment reaction. sure, sure. But for me, the maturity in moving away from the bullying aspects, the manipulating aspects is about cultivating the skills to pause, to reframe, to see that there are things that are much more important to me than the the immediacy of the rationale that says you must win this right now. Otherwise, everything falls apart. Yeah. Sky's falling. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what you just said in terms of having that role modeled, there's a lack of that kind of modeled behavior right within, at the very least, the world right now. And on the positive side, yeah There is an awful lot on the side of modeling, bullying, manipulating or tyrant behavior. yeah What see is such a subsuming to the winning mentality that
00:35:51
Speaker
that is occurring, that that most of these conversations are debate style. And not only are they in debate style, they are in the ways that I did with those Mormon elders, which was debate has devolved into not actually the merits of self-reflection and understanding and and and actually speaking from the heart. It's winning by can I poke more holes in your arguments, right? Can I, as potentially someone who is 5, 10, 15 years ahead of you in maturation, yeah bring the full weight of my ah my evolution and my development intellectually against you who is just at the front to end of formulating those?
00:36:38
Speaker
and And then the fact that you look or you scramble or you don't have the words to find or the... that That that equals winning. that that that That me making you look foolish has nothing to do with whether actually what you were saying was a more approximate version of the truth. yeah But because you look incapable of defending the truth. Wow. I actually win. And that has nothing to do with the merits of truth. That has everything to do with the merits of you using this as a means, as a venue for validating yourself, making yourself look big. And what I'm describing, I think, is the nature of The bully. and why why we define that is because we need to recognize that how we show up
00:37:29
Speaker
matters how we show up as either the bully or or the person who truly is interested in getting to some shared version of truth it matters and and and showing up as the bully for me is a clear indication that actually your claims or my claims in my case, in talking to these Mormon boys and saying like, yeah, I'm interested in truth. I'm going to use all these tools and I'm actually going to bully you into my view. I'm going to actually say that I have the truth already. My job is to get you there. yeah
00:38:02
Speaker
And if I can get you there, um well, I'm not going to reveal that actually the the truth never really mattered. I'm already convinced that the truth matters. Yeah. It's just also that I believe that i've I'm already on the winning side. Yeah.
00:38:16
Speaker
So therefore, I'm going to use whatever tools are in my quiver to get you there as well. And when I get you there, I'm going to believe that the truth won out. And I'm in this cycle. Your truth. My truth. Yes. Well, it's interesting is that when I conflate that my truth equals the truth. As everybody does. Absolutely. kind of have to, otherwise it's not a belief. That's right. When we get to that point where I've created and crafted this ecosystem in this way, not aware of what I'm actually doing, I've created a closed loop system where I am actually, if I was able to step outside of that and define the dynamics of what's going on, I would clearly say, This is bully. Right, right. This is a bully.
00:39:05
Speaker
But as long as I stay within that closed system, then I'm a warrior. I'm a warrior poet who has all of the greatest intentions in play that that that I am fighting for righteousness. Right. and And that's where I feel that I've gotten myself stuck the most is is in crafting my own ecosystem unto my own ego.
00:39:34
Speaker
Maybe calling back to the modeling question, which I heard part of, but not the other part. Was there somebody that gave you permission to recognize, oh, I don't have to be the winner every time, or I don't have to win in the way that I think I need to win, or any of those things about how
Role Models and the Power of Reflection
00:39:51
Speaker
relational relational conversations happen. And I say that because you just ended with an interesting point about not allowing people to to live their truth. And I'm paraphrasing because I think that you do really enjoy connecting with people in this way and hearing where they're coming from and not shooting it down.
00:40:11
Speaker
That's the only way I have ever known you. yeah And so I think that that's a big difference here. And maybe you and I just don't disagree on much. And maybe I haven't seen that side, but I don't believe that it's still alive and well with you.
00:40:21
Speaker
What does a model mean? What does a mold mean? What does a, their mirrors part of the initial steps into maturity is about recognizing the importance of staring into the reflection that is coming back at us. Does this bring back the ridiculous movie that I've been recommending that you and Tiffany watch?
00:40:42
Speaker
and let's Let's talk about. Oh my gosh, this is horrible. Okay. So first of all, I want to acknowledge one thing. I think you and I could spend um any number of ways and would find any um number of ways of contriving a situation where this movie could come up just so we could talk about it. Oh, is this the place? Is this the opportunity? And I think that I am delighted that this came up.
00:41:07
Speaker
Without any any form of planning or machinations for saying, like, let's figure out how to make this seem. It would feel contrived. Can i please, i love that you've acknowledged and set the stage yes for your pleasure in this movie. So maybe this is the foray of our disagreement. Because I saw this dumpster fire in my teens.
00:41:27
Speaker
And it was a Saturday afternoon. It was a local channel. And they're just throwing it on and I saw something to the effect of kung fu or fighting and I'm like, yeah okay, I'm hooked. I'm in. Then this thing starts to unfold about this person. So he was searching for something and what he was told he was searching for was truth. And without giving away too much of the plot, there was this thing that did involve mirrors.
00:41:52
Speaker
And ah many conversations you and I have had over the years, I thought, oh, you really have to see this thing. yeah and And just thought, oh, this just ties into everything that you're talking about in this moment. I had no idea you were to take the bait with this and run with it.
00:42:07
Speaker
The text that you sent me after i finally figured out the name of the movie, which I have forgotten now. Circle of Iron. for Circle of Iron. I was going to say Fist of Seal or some other trite title. Yeah. But you're just saying how great it is. You and Tiffany loved it. But anyway, the mirrors piece was huge. First of all, even undersold the fact that it wasn't just me and Tiffany.
00:42:29
Speaker
It was our entire family that watched this. Good. And we... You, F5, and then the 40 other people around the globe in the 50 plus years that this thing was filmed are crazy about it. The prologue to it reveals one big thing that a lot of people aren't aware is that this was written by Bruce Lee. So Bruce Lee wrote this and it was a massive dream of his to bring his opus to the screen and convey some very important things to him. Now, this was in the seventies and was it the seventies or the early eighties? It's felt like one of the two, but we're talking. 1978. Okay. We're talking in a time where those are ancient histories. Some are going this and think, oh, we're dinosaurs still around. Yeah. Were they the camera people? That's it. And it was a different time. Yeah. It's so metaphorically, archetypally, thematically strong in how overt it is. That's fair. It's just like there are certain things that we watch, you know, big, big topic in this house. And one of our reference points is Interstellar. You and I watch Ad Astra. Yeah.
00:43:39
Speaker
Ad Astra there there's so many different things that you can pull it apart because of how subtle it is in and and in upholding the the the mantra within media which is to show don't tell okay. Circle of Iron, yeah in how overt it is in showing and the ways it goes about showing, it's actually telling. like it's It's really difficult to escape the clarity of what they're saying. And yes, the nature of reflection and how they are so ham-handed oh yeah in getting to this this endpoint where they've built to the mystery being solved
00:44:25
Speaker
And then delivering it like look in the mirror. is It's and and everybody has heard this before. Sure. But they do it in a way that I think the camp that's involved with it.
00:44:37
Speaker
And the reveal at the very end, I think, was very kind of cleverly yes executed. So campiness. Absolutely. Yep. The other thing would argue is that we're all the other good actors busy during the shooting of this because Bruce Lee, I think that's what drew me in looking back on this because i saw his name. His name. Yes. Yes. But it's like, why would a ah tall Scandinavian dude best epitomize the vision of Bruce Lee? But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Yeah. And then and then I think you later on top of that, that the other lead in it is David Carradine. And David Carradine, he just plays that role very, very well. Yeah. and so there Some people would be criticized of having too much range. Not not not David Carradine. Absolutely not. Yes, that is a great example of ultimately what I, I, a lot of wisdom traditions gets to a point where turning the light back on yourself, looking in the mirror, all of the, these topics that we know about self-reflection um, In my opinion, that's been co-opted with a project-based society that says the reason you self-reflect, the reason you do self-work, the reason you do all of these things is to make yourself more productive within the system itself.
00:45:53
Speaker
The example I'll give this, you know, when when I was in healthcare, care i joined an organization and the nursing staff were in the process of of starting to organize. And when we got there, what had been done, there were they were very real systemic issues. Sure.
00:46:13
Speaker
that had been decisions that had been made by the administrative leaders that decreased nursing ratios, that increased the risk for patients. Most of the nursing staff were saying and would call it like, we're burnt out. Sure, this is a problem. It is. And and they were so they were related to the systemic decisions that had been made to cut staff, to overextend. The solution of the administration by the time I had gone there gotten there was, okay, we hear you, you're burnt out. So we're going to give you resiliency and mindfulness training. And we're going to put you through this course. Can I tell you my blood pressure just shot up? Yeah. Because that is the mode of corporate mentality. It is. It is. it's it's
00:46:53
Speaker
It's that you're bumping up against a system and you're hearing that I'm losing parts of myself. i'm i'm Something is off. You're telling me that my expertise and ah timeline within this field are wrong. And I just need additional training to make this. That's right. That's right. yeah We keep putting it back onto that person and saying like in in your isolation, you need to get it figured out.
00:47:22
Speaker
If this doesn't work, then we've we've built this kind of rubric that points to, oh, it's not the system's fault. Never. It's you. you just You need more refining. You need to make you you need to become a better just be project of yourself where we're constantly striving. the the person that There is a book called the The Burnout Society by the German philosopher Björn Chulhan, and he talks specifically about a little annoyed that you came up with that much quicker than I came up with the title Kung Fu, but...
00:47:54
Speaker
That's, that's a me problem. I'm, but well, I'm jealous that that's the touch point that you're at. So let's just trade. Let's just, look yeah let's do that today. They're talking about the same thing. Okay. And I think when we talk about role models, yes, there is an aspect of saying from a community perspective, from a, what holds us together, that it's, it's, it's good for us to have people at different stages yeah But from a personal perspective, as men, we need to have means of looking in the mirror. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and one of the predominant means for doing that throughout history, throughout cultures, throughout tribes...
00:48:37
Speaker
has been having other men that are further down the path to which we can look at and see what's being reflected back to us about us. Sure.
00:48:51
Speaker
Through the lens of somebody else kind of just showing us. Which is an impossible task though. Impossible. For us to find ourselves, we don't need to go externally. This is back to the mirror thing. ah to have validation.
00:49:06
Speaker
awarded for what we are not doing right to get closer to who
Redefining Success and Authenticity
00:49:11
Speaker
we are right this is the crazy part i think that's oftentimes the definition of role models that we sometimes get comfortable with is is that when i hear us discuss the absence of fathers in the world yeah and and the populations that don't have that and It makes it sound like a lot of the conversation is we need these young impressionable men or boys right to have the validation. of the And and i i without going down that that path of validation, what the mirror does for me when I look into it, when I have somebody that I esteem or someone that i that just surprises me that says, this is somebody that has tapped into something that I want.
00:49:56
Speaker
It's not me asking the questions about how I continue to turn myself into a project for how to become that. It's about what that person inspires within me. The mirroring effect. There's a big difference. Is is this that something comes up inside of me that says, well, I want that.
00:50:18
Speaker
or Or what is that thing that's coming up inside of me? I believe that what we need is the ability to model ourselves after aspects that we want to see in ourselves and that we don't know how to do that. And that the thrashing that oftentimes comes up when we don't have those models is is that we are creating those models for ourselves.
00:50:45
Speaker
When we actually go out and we start being bullies, We're trying on this version that we think we're supposed to be. When we go out and we start just debating, when I go out and I start, I'm creating this version of myself that is eventually going to be a mirror back to myself that says...
00:51:05
Speaker
I was doing those for reasons that, that I thought were going to validate me, sure but I violated yeah the very thing that I actually wanted in that. It's hard because you don't, you don't get that introspection immediately.
00:51:21
Speaker
It feels right. Cause it was modeled. If you're okay with that term yeah modeled accurately, like, Oh, it works for this person yeah and then when you get to it uh then you get to the process of doing it and try to um incorporate it into your persona you start to realize oh wait a second there's a certain point you realize yeah no uh-uh this is not it yeah and that's hard that's really hard because i think it's so easy as recognize the value of what people are doing that you appreciate. Yeah. Would like to you start to em emulate. Yeah. But right away, until you try it on, I guess is the tricky part. And that takes some serious doing and restructuring.
00:51:58
Speaker
I don't think that the traditional explanation of why role models are important is wrong. It's insufficient for the complete narrative of what we're discussing here is is that the importance of role models, yes, is so that someone can emulate. Validation is important at times. Initiation is important. Cultivating virtues and characteristics is important. What happens when there are no role models?
00:52:26
Speaker
One is is that we get down to this business of creating our own by trying on certain things. And there is a collateral damage that's associated with that. If I, in in trying to discover who my authentic self is or who the mature version of myself is I'm going to create collateral damage if I take on the masks of bully, manipulator, all these. I may believe that I'm i'm doing those things for authentic reasons, but it's not until afterwards and I reflect back And that there's also the collateral damage of what happens if you never reflect back or if you fall in love with those masks that you're wearing. That's And you believe actually that gives you a sense of validation that you become addicted to. So you just perpetuate that in the crafting of these masks and the collateral damage that we're creating. it is another form of transmitting whatever emptiness is inside upon others. Mm-hmm.
00:53:23
Speaker
And we are creating situations of trauma, of distress, of damage that the question is, how do you, going back to that circle that we said you get just stuck in because you are yeah you're just feeling the the truthfulness of how you're showing up in the world. When that is going on around us,
00:53:41
Speaker
How do we call ourselves or be called out of that na that cycle of destruction, of toxicity? And and and i I believe that as long as we are not able to be called out of that, then we create this negative feedback loop until it becomes so inescapable that We are either alone. We have alienated everybody. We have created a world in which it is now intolerable to live, not only for ourselves, but all of the people that we claimed that were important to us have now abandoned that world as well.
00:54:23
Speaker
Yeah. It's a quick trip. If you're miserable, nobody around you is going to be happy. Yeah. Right. And so the people that care about you. Yeah. um i So i have a curve ball. Yeah. And for me, I think I experienced modeling in a different way. Yeah.
00:54:38
Speaker
I think you tapped into this a bit, but it was so galvanizing for me that I thought it would be helpful in this conversation to talk about. But um I knew early on what did I wanted to be and do. And so as an educator, every time I was in a classroom, I was critically assessing what the people were doing and their preparation.
00:54:59
Speaker
communication style, et cetera, et cetera. Like all these things were a factor. I've had great educators in my life and I've been very fortunate for that, but that was the minority, right? Those are the rare article, the end of the rainbow things. I have learned so much from really piss poor, horrible educators that have no business being there because it was so clear that they were confused, they were overwhelmed, they were over, and it's like, oh yeah, I need to avoid that. I get the way to do it are A, B, C, D, and then you start working down a list. And for me, it got very, very clear.
00:55:33
Speaker
But I think that I was very fortunate and a bit of an anomaly because I wasn't guessing. I knew where I wanted to end up. These were just a means to how to get there. And I think that was so telling because if I had really amazing educators the entire time, maybe the experience would be different, but I think I would be less motivated to try to find where the weaknesses were. And again, not trying to win, and just trying to be better. And so for me, it got easy that way.
00:55:59
Speaker
I'm very fortunate. those ones on the other side. yeah So what I hear you from there is is like, we can learn by the antithesis of what we feel calling to us. yeah And that can be productive and informative and and it is. sure how How does that contrast to the positive image for you in this field of education or other?
00:56:26
Speaker
Yeah, well, it it kind of comes back to the conversation you're talking about with the um ah the missionaries that you had a conversation with. And I think that for me, the really well-dialed in professional educators that I didn't have to poke holes in. I just like, oh, okay, this is great. They do this amazing. And i could see this, I could recognize.
00:56:47
Speaker
I'm bringing up education, but this is in all walks of life. And I think that for me, it became simple. that i don't have to struggle to identify where they're trying to go or what the motivation was or how to execute a certain thing.
00:57:01
Speaker
They're just doing it. And so that was so telling. And I know how it made me feel to be in that presence. Opposed to people that just, oh yeah, this is just awkward. It was awkward last week. It's going to be awkward today. You may think you're better than everybody that is watching you thinks that you are. And that's a problem because you're selling a narrative and
Self-Discovery and Personal Integrity
00:57:21
Speaker
it's not accurate. And I just fear that so many people are there because they've been sold a bill of goods that this is the thing you need to be doing. yeah This is the moneymaker, which we, I think, talked about last week a little bit.
00:57:32
Speaker
This is where you need to be doing to provide, to do all those things in this masculine format. um But it just, it wasn't maybe what they wanted to be doing or they were going to be giving a minimum effort the entire way. And that's coming through and it comes through in every, every walk of life. It's just, I think the danger of not asking the hard questions early on is that you can still correct course. If you're not being consistent and authentic, I feel like that's where things start to unravel. And so job performance, and life is more than job performance, but job performance is one metric of this. Mm-hmm.
00:58:09
Speaker
uh happiness collegiality relationship stuff like all of those things are a factor and if you're suffering in that thing that takes you further away from your core the rest of those things cannot just thrive magically and this is my bigger concern about why the conversation about um i guess what we're talking about today but in this whole series is just that how could we help to get people to ask these questions And if they're in this role that they realize maybe this is not who I am it's not too late to start pivoting and thinking about how to do it better, how to adjust and start seeking those conversations that they didn't initially. because It's so huge and it's a long life.
00:58:49
Speaker
yeah right So yeah not suffer through. That was MythPep Talk. No, I like it partial partially because it reframes one thing for me is that there's a feeling, i think, within all of all of um what it means to be in this world where there's ah there are multiple questions that that I'm asking. And...
00:59:11
Speaker
And oftentimes I ask the questions of the world or um or a role model, whether it's positive or negative, yeah that it's, it's like, what do I need to be or not be in order to show up in this world?
00:59:24
Speaker
Those are big questions. And, and, and over time, i think the question changes. Yeah, sure. It's, it's not showing up in the world and trying to find the formula in which I can say the right things. I can behave the, the, the right ways. That word, right, is all contextualized by whether or not I'm recognized by the world or whether who I am is recognized.
00:59:51
Speaker
Approval. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that you can spend a lifetime trying to figure out the formula, whether it's looking at negative or positive role models and, and yet underlying that those mechanisms of looking for those negative and positive role models, I think is a different question. It's not, who do I need to be to show up?
01:00:11
Speaker
It it is who am I? Yeah. and sure And how do I show up regardless of what the world thinks? Yeah. I think having the the the bravery to go in that direction that the world may not approve of is something that most people don't even can allow themselves to flirt with with with with. With very real consequences. Sometimes, sure. like yeah it's If I'm someone who, well well, not if, I'm a father. Yeah. I have three daughters, presently 23, 21, and turning 19. Okay. The youngest one, we will never be empty nesters. Yeah.
01:00:48
Speaker
we will and And I say that because there are very pragmatic roles that I need, that I feel the obligation and the need to to fulfill those. right And in in our instance, because of our daughter, we've shared this and...
01:01:06
Speaker
We're at a point in time where we recently got notified that the world itself is communicating to us that what we do and the choices that we have made in order to take care of our daughter are not, are subordinate to the rest of the world. Yeah. It's not in keeping with the priorities for everybody else.
01:01:31
Speaker
Correct. Yeah. That's not a message everybody welcomes or dreams of having. Yeah. And, and, and there's a demand that it says, you know, this, this call that says, well, if you are going to continue to support and produce for her, then, then you need to get in line and start competing on the, on this field that convinces us. You need to convince us that Claire is is, worth supporting. Oh my gosh. It's interesting that you frame it that way back to what we talked about when we started this conversation about the framework that you see a field of competition. Yeah. And does it feel that way to you that you have to now flip that switch and start turning on to forgetting about chivalry, for forgetting a about this is now very, the stakes just became very, very real. there I don't have an answer yet. Yeah. Okay. I don't. Just the fact that it would be threatened though. I mean, that's got a sense of messaging there. But the threat it's interesting is, is that there's the very real pragmatic aspect of Claire's needs being met, but there's this also other aspect that says i what, what is, what is being negotiated is my participation and complicity in a system that
01:02:48
Speaker
I do not agree with. and And what is being wielded, it feels like a bully. It feels like, hey, these things over here, they're we understand they're important. We're going to say to us, but we know they're really important to you.
01:03:05
Speaker
And the question is, can we use that knowing importance to you? Mm-hmm. as a beans to get you to participate in us consolidating power. And I i feel that that's the game that oftentimes we, that that I am susceptible to.
01:03:28
Speaker
Like when we talk about leadership, um oftentimes for, or bosses, we we almost talk about it through this naive notion of motivation.
01:03:39
Speaker
oh my gosh. Okay. And and that, with us that the, the, as a leader, what you're supposed to do is figure out what motivates people. Yeah. And then to use that that as a means to get them to do what you want them to do. I hate that you went this direction with I thought you were going to go the much more um hippie version of leadership, which is my job as a leader to is to um advance, support, develop my subordinates so that they could at some point move on and pursue dreams and aspirations and other things. I believe that that is um that narrative yeah has a role that is still subservient to the very real actual incentives that exist for consolidation of of short-term thinking and power. We will talk about leadership through the lens of of humanity. We will talk about our values as a culture through the lens of the vulnerable As long as it gives us the ability to project an image that we want to be seen without evaluating the very real systemic or incentives-based models that we have for driving the real behavior.
01:05:01
Speaker
So when we talk about culture, we're not talking about the values that are just plastered on the walls that says this is, ah we're talking about how closely those values align to the very real incentives for how things get done within a culture. And using that for myself as as a culture of one, as somebody showing up in this world And even saying, i I believe or I know, going back to that question we were asking, how do I how do i show up in the world? yeah
01:05:34
Speaker
Well, that's me looking at all of the mechanisms of here's the values. Okay, going try on the values that are posted. I'm going to say like, but I'm upholding the values. And then over time, I learn that those values are there almost as a nice to have.
01:05:49
Speaker
But really, we get to leave live those values only if we're meeting the quarterly earnings, only if yeah people aren't feeling the pressure. and And there was a point where we lived those values because the horizon was a two or a three-year period where we said, we're moving towards this and we have conviction within leadership that says, we're We will, this is what we're working towards.
01:06:13
Speaker
If we miss the quarterly earnings, this, we're not going to overcorrect and and change overall direction. But as we've gotten more and more focused on a narrow time period, as I've felt those pressures, my question for myself is less of, if I keep asking the question, how do I show up in the world in order to be recognized by the world? yeahp then I am beholden to the language that the world is accelerating towards of
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:06:41
Speaker
more short-term thinking that has no real appetite for thinking long-term other than as lip service. So we live in a society that says right now, we've got a budget crunch. Yeah.
01:06:55
Speaker
Claire and her needs are adversely and differentially impacting that. So in the short term, we're going to say we're going to cut off 100% of the support for that. While I sit here and say, okay, I can play the game on the field that's being set up of trying to justify why Claire needs to and why this financially. Right.
01:07:19
Speaker
doesn't make sense. with My background in healthcare care with us being in Texas where they did something similar and coming back here and realizing that that short-term thinking actually ends up yielding, ah blowing through the budget. there There is actually no long-term financial rationale for this because Claire's not going away and we are not a society that's going to endorse. Well, Claire is expensive. So let's give her a bottle of water, you know, put her in her wheelchair, yeah go out to the wilderness and, and wheel her out there and let go and say like, spend for yourself. Sure.
01:07:55
Speaker
Um, find a way to provide economic value is that is unconscionable to us. That's kind of the backstop of thinking for us. And yet the nature of how we've allowed ourselves to devolve into this very singular individualistic view of of wisdom that says, unless you produce value, you have no value. Yeah. That's that question of how do I show up ah in the world? If I'm constantly looking for the validation of the world based on the value that I produce, then I'm continuing to conform myself to what the world thinks. And the more short term the world starts getting in their thinking, the more I have to just you know keep trying on new masks or contorting myself into this. The chameleon dynamic effect.
01:08:47
Speaker
Happens right here. That's right. and and and And I think that in my conversations with a ah lot of men on the coaching side of things, there's this inherent knowing, like I am being asked to do things that's in conflict of this other question that keeps plaguing me yeah of who am I and what must I be regardless of what is happening in the world? What do I stand for? Not in opposition, but because I must be that person. Because there are people out there that are feeling this as well. And what they're waiting for, wherever they are in their development, they're waiting for somebody to mirror back to them that they can also stand.
01:09:28
Speaker
then That's the picture for me of of the role modeling. the The picture for me and asking those questions is getting to a point where it says like, we're all going to ask that question. And we're going to, many of them, many of us will ask that question on our deathbeds. And we've all heard the stories of the yeah the people that carry and don't realize the volume and the size of the regret for the decisions that they made until they're facing death. and And instead, the absence of mature modeling is those that must hold up the mirrors for when we start feeling the tugs at asking this question of who am I, who must I be? And for many of us, we don't get there until we've tried on the masks of the bully, until we've seen the collateral damage. And think
01:10:22
Speaker
But without that sense of, of eldership and wisdom that call that, that says we know there's a possibility for actually answering this question without fully or continuing to contort and conform yourself to this without those that we get into the business of creating some version of our own demise, that we create a mess of our own making and That we can no longer blame others. That we can no longer escape the velocity of our own egocentricity, of our own narcissism.
01:11:00
Speaker
That what we have created in the mess itself is now the mirror from which we cannot help but stare into and see, oh we did this to ourselves.
01:11:12
Speaker
And I think that's one of the biggest pictures of of masculine maturity is is recognizing those who have gotten to that point sooner. And and and trauma did that for for me, not fully. I, so this is the part is, is like, I can look into that mirror and say that, that I was brought to my knees into that point sooner. Yeah.
01:11:37
Speaker
But partially I think because i find an ethic in cultivating the mirrors so that we don't need to destroy ourselves in order to finally realize the truth or truths that include that we are not an island.
01:11:57
Speaker
yeah Yeah, that's just it. That life is hard, that we are not the center of the universe. And and all of those things can be deeply unsettling to a population that through the accessibility of social media, through the accessibility of being able to just speak and and throw your opinion out there, wants to believe that speaking is, because the system wants unlimited user-generated content...
01:12:23
Speaker
And we'll take anything and everything that preferences how bombastic or, you know, creates, we all know the term rage bait and click bait.
01:12:35
Speaker
And, and we want to say, well, that's the way the world works. That's very dismissive. Yeah. We, we, we don't want to look into the mirror and say, we are at a point where that question of how do I show up in the world is us saying, well, then I will also participate in that. And then I will turn around and I'll blame, but that's the way the world works. Right. Maturity is saying, you're right.
01:12:57
Speaker
That is the way the world is incentivizing this behavior right now. And the only autonomy I have is in my choices to either contribute to that or to say there is the possibility for something else. Yeah.
01:13:11
Speaker
And I must create maybe what I'm being asked to do. in looking in the mirror and asking the question of what am i who am i regardless that that's how we break the cycle. That's how I step into the humility of saying like, who I am is someone that's becoming.
01:13:29
Speaker
I haven't arrived. I don't have the answers. I don't, I'm okay with, I don't know. Not from the apologetic view that I said that as an 18 year old performatively saying, oh yeah, I'm an evangelical as well. And I don't know. Sure. You tried it on all. BS. Yeah. that That version of Tyler absolutely thought he knew the answer. Right.
01:13:53
Speaker
Already. Right. And his saying, I don't know. i have doubts. I have questions as well, was purely because he was taught to acknowledge those things as part of the mechanisms of winning and that is manipulation that is that is me even manipulating myself into believing that simply because i say these words or simply because i believe that what i'm saying is true automatically makes it true i am going to have bullying behaviors that come up
01:14:28
Speaker
It's still about this mirror to am I becoming the bully because of my own rationale, because of the things that are unexamined, because that part of the stepping out of that bulliness is first recognizing it and seeing it. And I may be capable of doing that or not. yeah I think that maturity that's calling us is to say that we have an active choice in how we show up. I have an active choice as I get older, as I mature, as I have more to reflect on. yeah
01:15:02
Speaker
I have an active choice on whether I'm going to reach for the simplicity of the of the sports field that I then say, well, that feels simpler. So I'm going to now apply that to everywhere. This winning aspect at all costs. And as long as I continue in in advocating for that model, yeah I'm showing up in ways that are against my very ethic, my very personhood. That's a function of immaturity. And if we want to show up, if I want to show up as a more mature man within the the the people that are around me then I need to confront my relationships to those kinds of systemic participation, complicity that exists in my own choices and evaluating the rationales that I'm using to justify why it's okay for me to treat, to invite people into my home and then to barrage them.
01:16:00
Speaker
And it wasn't this bad. We we left on good terms, yeah but looking back on it, but they also never came back. They they didn't come back again. Yeah. All I have access to is what I was doing in that moment. And what I was doing in that moment was seeking to dominate, was seeking to win. Right. And to use that as a means that I was in the right. And my maturation is is that saying confidently now, that's not sufficient.
01:16:25
Speaker
Yeah. That is not sufficient to dictate whether or not- I am a ah man or or whether I am mature or advanced or wise. Yeah. The only thing at this point that is sufficient is to be able to use that as a mirror and let go of the judgment and the guilt that I might have with making those choices then. Right. And saying, I want to choose alternative means. Mm-hmm. that are more closely aligned with the values that I have, yeah that that if I was to go back and and interact in something similar is to say that I don't have the truth for you.
01:17:05
Speaker
But what i believe is is that I have the offer of seeing your humanity listening to what you have to say without feeling I need to defend what it brings up in me. You might say some things that might solicit within me some pretty big feelings. sure And I don't need to quell those feelings, quell that reaction by artificially creating a construct where I win the argument. right I am strong enough to actually use what comes up within me and say, I'm going to go in I'm going evaluate what came up with that. Yeah, that's that's important. That's the energy that I want to bring. that's That's what I feel is going to be a much more reliable source of truth in relation to me showing up in ways that is a full expression of what I must be in that moment.
01:17:59
Speaker
The bully that I have been in the past has been something I don't want to be and has also been instructive. Can I embrace the sense of humility and courage to turn that around on myself and see the ways that I've done that to myself and to all the people that I care most around me?
01:18:17
Speaker
Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together. If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
01:18:35
Speaker
And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface level advice, subscribe to our Kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com. Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands.
01:18:52
Speaker
And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.