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Goodpain Season 02 Episode No. 02 – Becoming a Real Man & The Roles We Learn
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This week we explore our own encounters with how traditional expectations both elevate and imprison, leading to breakdown before breakthrough. The conversation explores:
- "What expectations about manhood did you inherit that nobody taught you how to actually embody?"
- "When have you felt most trapped by the very roles that were supposed to give you strength and purpose?"
- "What emotions have you been told a 'real man' shouldn't feel – and what has that cost you in your relationships?"
- "If you could speak honestly to your younger self about the lies he believes about what makes a man valuable, what would you say?"
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Transcript
Introduction: Authenticity vs. Pain in Roles
00:00:00
Speaker
How you decide to fulfill those things is either going to help you remember and be closer to this version of yourself in a way that's authentic and genuine and pure and life-giving, or you're going to choose mechanisms of forgetting this that transmit more pain, that inflict more damage, not only on yourself, but the things that are most important to you, and they are going to undermine the roles that you are accepting as life continues to go on.
What is 'Good Pain'?
00:00:31
Speaker
I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to Good Pain, where we talk about life's true intensities without pretending they're easy to solve. What if the things we're told to fix, optimize, or get over are actually where the real wisdom lives?
00:00:44
Speaker
Each week we gather for the kind of honest conversations you desire to be a part of more often about the relentless demands, the unexpected grief, the quiet victories, and everything in between. Because maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't to eliminate the hard stuff, it's to find the good in it. Welcome to the conversation.
Exploring Masculinity
00:01:13
Speaker
There's a number of characteristics that can be used and we will explore today around what is messaged to both Jeremy and i on masculinity. Dominant, a loner, solitudinous, underdog, self-reliant, underestimated, self-sufficient, a defender.
00:01:32
Speaker
They're all aspects that we discuss. And looking back on my formative years, There were a number of big questions that emerged from this as well.
00:01:44
Speaker
The questions like, what expectations about being a man did I inherit that nobody taught us how to actually embody? When did we feel trapped by the very roles that we were supposed to give us strength and purpose?
00:01:59
Speaker
What emotions did we have? And were we told that real men shouldn't feel? And then finally, if we could speak honestly to our younger self about the lies he would believe about what makes a man valuable, what would we say?
Focus and Obsession in Art and Sports
00:02:14
Speaker
This is the second episode of our season two on masculinity or masculine energy. And welcome to the conversation.
00:02:26
Speaker
I have healthy, obsessive personality, which I think you and I both share in some degree. Things that were in my life, I just committed fully to, and I didn't know any other way. i can't do things half speed. it's For me, it became very simple, and there were sports that I got connected to. you with Art was always something that appealed to me, and I started painting very early on, and then that led to sculpture, and then never left me, and it's So those things just kind of took over interests and questions about, oh I wonder what I'm going to do today. Those questions didn't come up. And then somebody asked me years and years ago, what do you do when you get bored? And I said, well, I haven't been bored in 30 plus years. I don't know what that means. And so it's because I always have these interests that capture my my focus and my um yeah my passions. It's interesting you you use the phrase a singularly focused or you said a healthy obsession.
00:03:24
Speaker
and And I think that's something that you know growing up and then in proximity to other boys as well, we do throw ourselves into things. yeah Part of my experience with throwing myself into things that has been different from a lot of my peers and which I'm very thankful for.
00:03:42
Speaker
is Is that i I didn't get a lot of feedback that said you need to focus on one thing or the other. Oh, yeah. And so I was allowed to explore. Yet a number of of my peers weren't given that free range approach to pursue things that could be of interest to
Balance in Gender Roles and Personal Development
00:04:03
Speaker
them. Yeah.
00:04:04
Speaker
And the reason i I find this to be worth exploring is because there is something, it seems like, that singular focus, whether it's wrapped up in the the mythology around women are better at multitasking than than men, the converse of that being, well, then boys do have a predilection to being all consumed. You you mentioned certain areas where we almost lose ourself in the preoccupation with what's happening in front of us. yeah
00:04:34
Speaker
That I think is something that came pretty inherently what felt very natural to me, is that that level of focus. But then I'd start getting the messages which were balanced.
00:04:48
Speaker
My peers starting getting the messages that you need to focus that energy into something yeah productive. This is the dangerous word right here. going back to that aspect of singular focus, I think there is something there that has a beauty to it. Yeah.
00:05:04
Speaker
That still requires some degree of balance associated with it. Because I would argue that those that look at video games and reach for the noise of the content that's involved in that or the way that the culture emerges, those deserve a lot more nuanced conversation. Yeah, agreed. However, if I was to talk to someone about their reservations for boys and video games or kids being inside and not being outside, really at the end of the day, I think it's this calling to what's the balanced mechanism that is being used for more fullness, for calling into a more full version of self.
Pressure from Immature Views
00:05:44
Speaker
And I think that's when we start talking a little bit more about maturity I'll use this as an example. So growing up, I was the oldest of four kids and I had the reputation for being very project driven. And if something came up, I mean, we went after it so much so that I got blinders on, right? Like is this like today we're going to build a fort this area.
00:06:10
Speaker
field that is across from and it's going to consume 100% of our time. We're going to have a snow day and we are going to spend time first. We're going to build a snow fort. Of course. We had lots of forts. Okay. We just, we we just, the desire to make shelter and yeah carve out your own spaces is its own topic. yeah agreed and it's so ingrained in everybody yes so yeah yes if we had a snow day here in colorado i mean we would pile mountains of snow and and it's funny as i'm saying this i'm like it was a mountain to me then does i've gone back and looked at it as like
00:06:44
Speaker
Okay, maybe it wasn't that that tall, but... Perspective is everything. It is. To you, it felt like a mountain. It was. We'll just go with that because it's a better story. It was. So great. We would mist it down with water so that it would become a little bit yeah denser yeah and what let it set, and then we would carve it out. And the entire time would be spent constructing, building, crafting it. And the amount of time that we spent inside of the fort or doing things and utilizing it... Yeah. paled through secondary right it was it was almost non-existent so that because the mission the the the focus the task was the activity of doing and to segue into i think a different conversation the purpose was very clear the mission that you all bought into you was very much productive and in support of providing creating
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah. But then we would finish it. We'd move on. There's other things that
Art vs. Masculine Skills
00:07:38
Speaker
I would pursue. And I think that's the that's the concern that people oftentimes see is is that what what happens when that singular focus lacks the portfolio approach of diverse interests that provide a more, with the phrase, well-rounded perspective. I think that's actually worth describing because I think at what we're starting to discuss is what immaturity looks like. Yeah. is Is that immaturity does involve some degree of imbalance. immaturity does involve some degree of disproportionate risk when we focus on one two or three things and we load up all of the dependencies for how we live on those one two or three things they are overweighted there's a tremendous amount of pressure when i have disproportionate pressure on on a couple of areas what got me to that disproportion
00:08:38
Speaker
was an immature view about the world and how i react after that whether that's through anger whether that's through impatience and fear and scarcity and all of the is more immaturity for me growing up and being fairly eclectic in my interests and my approach and having a dad who was blue collar who taught me a lot of the Yeah.
00:09:03
Speaker
that in this culture are frequently rewarded as as those are masculine skills things that a man or or a boy should be equipped with doing and i am also very thankful for those things yeah I also was an artist. I also had other
Family and Marriage Influences
00:09:21
Speaker
interests. i we We've discussed already that what was very atypical for me and my peers was the fact that I knew very early on that I wanted to get married.
00:09:33
Speaker
And that's right my favorite movie for a period of time was Father of the Bride, not for the reasons of I dreamt about a wedding. it was It was about knowing that what called to me was that unique pain and struggle and reward that would come from being a part of a family.
00:09:55
Speaker
And that that was something I knew very early. it came true. and and it game true It is interesting in the conversations we've had because you were crystal clear and possibly laser focused on the outcome that you wanted to have. And quite the opposite, I fought it every step of the way. And I'm very grateful for the beautiful family I have and the wife that I'm married to.
00:10:20
Speaker
But it was not clear to me. It was a thing that I pushed aside as much as possible because I think that there was this dynamic about the Peter Pan syndrome about trying to maintain immaturity, for lack of
Growing Up with Divorced Parents
00:10:32
Speaker
a better word. And then that definitely shifts things once you get married. The perception is, oh, well, you're officially an adult now.
00:10:39
Speaker
And I know you've been paying taxes, but that doesn't really matter. Now that you're married, it gets real. And then with kids, I mean, oh my gosh, right? yeah I'd like to turn it back to you now and talk through a real cliffhanger, yeah by the way. That was great. And talk to you more about your role formation of what are the roles are that set the expectations for you and started to define for you maleness. Yeah. It's all around us, right? we We can't avoid this. These things happen from a very, very, very young age.
00:11:10
Speaker
And even before you're able to remember thoughts or critical thinking or anything like that, you're starting to get these influences. So I remember just picking up on some of the views that you were leading by.
00:11:20
Speaker
Only child. My folks were divorced fairly early long, but I remember the struggles and the fighting ah surrounding all that. And that was very scary, very confusing. And um two people who I loved and... cared about. They didn't care about each other anymore. And so that was a thing.
00:11:37
Speaker
ah Fast forward to what that looked like growing up is I would live with my mom throughout the week, but then I would hang out with my dad at his place on the weekends. And so there's joint custody thing, which is great. And then the ah the roles of the week versus the weekend were very different as well. And so my dad and I would always go out and do physical things and throw baseballs and footballs and During the week, it was more formulaic. It was quieter. It was less physically and maybe vibrantly interesting because you're working on homework and going to bed at regular hours and all the structure that you need. and And so I think there's unfair associations that I developed with what that meant, right? Hanging out with dad is one thing. Hanging out with mom is another.
00:12:20
Speaker
The curveball for me is that my mom was
Summers in Alaska and Family Dynamics
00:12:22
Speaker
from Alaska. And so I had the very fortunate experience of spending every summer of my life there until I was 16, 17, 18, something like that. And so I got to experience life with ah her family, which was comprised of two other sisters and her brothers, my uncles, were so formative of every decision I ever made. Those were the influences that I had because they were younger than my dad. And so there was a little bit more of a kinship dynamic there. Having said that, i was I was considered the sixth because my mom's family of origin had five siblings and everybody just kind of thought of me as the sixth. So that was kind of great, but I was always isolated. I was always outside of that stuff.
00:13:03
Speaker
ah There's a lot of bickering between siblings in that dynamic, which I didn't experience. I didn't know. do not envy missing. So i think I align more with My uncles and what they want to do and character development and um just really beautiful, lovely, honest conversations.
00:13:23
Speaker
And they would get annoyed with me when I would do younger kids stuff and fine, totally good. i get that. but they were always so supportive and welcoming, and i was a huge priority for them in that experience, which was great.
00:13:36
Speaker
Alaska is a fairly rugged place, and so learning how to fish and hunting would be generous. I've done it a couple times. It did not go well any time. Nobody died. Sometimes animal died, but not at my hand. i was I was always very clumsy with that, and I was fine with that.
00:13:51
Speaker
If I had grown up in that environment, surrounded by that community, I think that I would always be somewhat of the outsider because what's going on, dude? Why can't you why can't you shoot a.30-06 and land a thing? I just don't care. So I think I recognized I would have been ostracized. My community in California was was more gracious.
00:14:10
Speaker
So that was kind of the upbringing. And I was fortunate to have the same group of people in elementary school and for the most part through high
Community Through Hockey
00:14:18
Speaker
school. As people started to develop into their own interests, didn't share a lot of that with them. And so I was always a bit of a loner that way. And i don't have any regrets about that. I don't wish that I had dis participated in more of those type of things, but I was busy. I was always doing other activities. Sports was the thing for me as well. For better worse, chose a sport that was not fully embraced by the Northern California group.
00:14:43
Speaker
world and I was a hockey player and it felt safer to play hockey because there was less judgment. There less recognition of what this thing is and everybody did not seem to be doing it. So it was kind of my thing, even though there's a built-in community of people that I was involved with and playing with and got to know these players and their families. And it's a really lovely community there. um But then I go to school on Monday morning after having tournaments all over the state and sometimes the country. And then And then everybody's talking about, did you see the football game or did you go to our game? Like, no, i was I was at my own game. And they're like, oh, okay, great. what do you play again?
00:15:23
Speaker
Isn't that really rough? what Do you still have all your teeth? Like all the stereotypical questions. But that was so formative with
Pivot from Hockey to Fine Arts
00:15:29
Speaker
me. And i was a bit of a lost soul with respect to you finding motivation with things in life until i was very fortunate to lock in to start to develop skills and started to get better and better. And that would put me into different categories of other hockey players and just seeing how people at those levels would operate.
00:15:47
Speaker
Even at a young age, they all sought to be more considered professional. And so they would have to walk the walk in that realm. And just thought, oh yeah, this is this is it. This is how I want to behave. And then seeing my idiot friends in high school who would just do as much of the partying as they could possibly get away with. and I'm like, yeah, I'm not comfortable with any of this. I don't want to be a part of this.
00:16:10
Speaker
So i just think that that further drove me into not isolation, but isolation from those communities. And along the way, you start to see what what healthy toughness and strength and quiet humility are as far as masculinity. And then you see masculinity that does not touch on any of those things. And it's over the top, awkward, it's uncomfortable, it's unnecessary. And so you just start recognize that. some of these things i don't want to participate in. And I like you as a person, but you're kind of acting like a a very large child. And so so that was that. I was fortunate to get recruited to play hockey in Minnesota, which was great. um The question that i i loved hearing was, where are you from again? i told them California. The first question is, this is Minnesota, mind you.
00:16:58
Speaker
What on earth are you doing here? i'm like, well, this is This is where they play the sport that I wanted to do. I still was frustrated because hockey, even though I had this expectation that Minnesota was the place that they loved us, and I thought that was going to be my people, and that was going to community.
00:17:15
Speaker
And every time baseball and football season rolled around, just realized, oh, hockey is definitely the third most important sport in the country. Maybe the fourth. Yeah. those Those are kind of my my strokes of of recognition of
Parental Influence on Marriage Views
00:17:30
Speaker
this. i think um mom and dad were very different fundamentally just from a standpoint of character and persona.
00:17:38
Speaker
From that, I think you pick up on some of those things and modeling what being developing a family looks like how you play into your role in that dynamic and um yeah and so from there it started to shape things i was very resistant to getting married which i think we've talked about before i love my wife she's amazing she broke me down and uh and showed me that there is wisdom to doing this but i think that there was a lot of resistance from that based on the relationship that i saw with my parents and it's like yeah, I don't, there's not a lot of good that happened from what I remember seeing when I was a very young kid, because that's when the divorce and all the fighting sort of happened. And so, so those are big questions that had to grapple with, but, um but yeah, happy to say now I've been married for 26 years and have four amazing kids. And I hope to to behave in such a way that does not embarrass them. Well, the the younger three, hope to not embarrass my oldest. I embarrass everything. Every time I say something is,
00:18:38
Speaker
Many of you can maybe relate to. so ah One thing that strikes me, I mean, with both of our stories, this aspect of being comfortable with, you use the word, being a loner in some respect.
00:18:51
Speaker
And that for both you and i there was a comfortability with that.
Solitude vs. Isolation
00:18:56
Speaker
i think it didn't come naturally for me. i think there was always a struggle and wanting to have that closeness that I, and I don't know where it came from. i think I've seen this with other friends usually that are on similar or the same sports teams and they travel together and they'd have all these shared experiences. And I always wanted to be a part of that.
00:19:12
Speaker
But I think that I just had to recognize, well, this is not in the cards. And so I had to learn other skills. I'm so happy with what I was able to to invest that energy into. i was also very creative all of my life. And so I think that afforded me time to really hone those type of skills. I value my quiet isolation that I definitely consider a self-care, just kind of quieting the noise that that the world likes to interject to you all the time.
00:19:37
Speaker
There's an aspect of solitude where within that you find a self-sufficiency, you find a self-reliance, you find an appetite for what you want to be doing. yeah And then attaching to that to some degree...
00:19:53
Speaker
some of the roles that where you can satisfy those things. Then there is, for me, the word isolation is almost the involuntary aspect of that, which says- Negative conversation. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. and And so, and and and that that oftentimes in our wanting to solve the negative aspects that comes from a unchosen isolation- sure is is that we seek out roles that we believe will satisfy or take away or help us escape from that isolation. oh okay.
00:20:28
Speaker
You use the example of going to Minnesota and also seeking some degree of camaraderie and and to leverage your what you had cultivated in your solitude and and find a place for it with a group and and and hoping that you have a role within that. Sure. Yeah. How how did, I mean, some of what happens there is you want to the focus on, on this shared passion for what you cultivated. Right. it Within hockey. Yeah.
00:21:00
Speaker
And then you find that, no, the place where you're finding that people are finding belonging within this venue is now in, in these other sports. Yeah. What was that experience like of saying that, oh, there could be a role here.
00:21:12
Speaker
But it will require some degree of compromise on what it is that I was actually hoping for.
Academic Shift and New Opportunities
00:21:19
Speaker
There's a missing piece that I should probably share with you. yeah I was a um a college athlete playing hockey for about three and a half minutes.
00:21:28
Speaker
so So my recruiting was was very exciting and it but afforded me a lot of opportunities to extend this chase of the dream. ah But it came very clear, very in focus, very quickly that I'm just not...
00:21:43
Speaker
going to be advancing. I'm not going to be on this team and I won't be advancing next. And to me, that was so difficult, but also it was the greatest thing that could have happened to me because i didn't have false pretense of pursuing something that was unrealistic.
00:22:00
Speaker
And I still can do this on my own and encapsulate some of the joy that I've have known one growing up with this. It allowed me to pivot into the other interests I had. And I found academics in a way that I hadn't valued previous to that. And if I was playing sports, then that would have been something I would have to compromise how much commitment I could make on both of those things. So I didn't have to sacrifice the community that I was focused on when I got there because I landed into fine art studios and, um, all of those things. And that community was there and ready. They did a lot less swearing and they usually smelled better. Sometimes not, uh, but it was, uh, it was just of sawdust and, and ceramics and paint with, uh, with, um, poor hygienic practices. All that makes for a really interesting cocktail at times. Yeah.
Idealism vs. Pragmatism in Careers
00:22:52
Speaker
Well, once you've been up for three days straight trying to finish projects, yes Tyler, um your senses are too narrow and the ability to smell those things just becomes part of the wash. Fair, fair. It was such a lovely time and great relationships, which again, had I been playing hockey, that would been a different thing. But I was so fortunate to be able to come to terms with that at that moment in my life instead of going through the college experience and then realize, oh, there's nowhere else for me to go now.
00:23:20
Speaker
And then what? And um at that point, I would have had a degree probably in something that would have not been fine arts related because I learned very quickly the balance of studio time and travel time was an impossibility. And so I would have to find something else.
00:23:36
Speaker
So I'm just very, very grateful for what it is. Now, having said that, i still think about hockey every single day. i still value that's that team dynamic. Wish I could tap into that. This is part the maturation process. What I hear with that resonates with me through the lens of roles. And there's this balance between the idealism of dreaming what's going to make us happy and then the pragmatism of what's going to put food on the table. and It hits us all, doesn't it? Yeah. And that sense of compromise that might come up, you found another avenue for that, which required you to take on a different role, at least in a different domain that was consistent with some new things that were of interest, that continued to cultivate expressions that you were happy to bring forward, but in a role that was different. Yeah. And for me, I was a big dreamer. I imagined I started with wanting to be the ice cream man. That's how low I put the threshold. But for me as a five, six year old, you mean the guy pushing around the cart with a bell or do you mean guy at any ice cream stand or establishment that you'd be handing out joy to everybody every day? Closer to the former, but I would be i would be driving the ice cream truck. oh come on. Of course. blew right past that one. Yes, yeah yes. The general aspect that we're talking about is role as what am I going to do with my life sure in terms of labor, yeah in production. How old would you say that you started to have that little dance when you would allow yourself to fantasize or think about, I have to land somewhere. I, yeah it was four or five. Wow. That's super early. That's amazing. I had my first full-time job.
00:25:16
Speaker
At six? At 13. That's amazing. my My full-time job at six was thinking about what my full-time job was going to be all the time. Like I was always planning and yeah And what I was really doing was trying on different hats. I was imagining what it would be like to live that life where I'm fulfilling the role of either provider for myself or for others. Okay. and what would make me happy and when you're four years old yeah the ice cream man your exposure first of all to different manifestations of what it means to to do a job yeah well that one seemed like why wouldn't you i have unfettered access to ice cream, to a popsicle that has a gumball in the middle of it. That, that just is wizardry. Yes.
00:26:08
Speaker
There were a number of things that I wanted to do with my life. There was a point where I wanted to be an officer in the Navy and we actually got very far down that path.
Defense, Identity, and Family Priorities
00:26:22
Speaker
While I was in the middle of college, I was pursuing going through officer candidate school. wow September 11th ended up happening towards the end of college. and And I remember the day after calling my recruiter and saying, how can we accelerate this? How could another role of being a defender, of being someone that's a part of something bigger and contributing to feeling that I must express this. This has to come out. Tiffany and i got really far down the path. We had our first child and then we found out I was getting ready to sign papers. Wow. schedule out officer candidate school. I had just finished up college maybe three months prior and things are being finalized. And I kid you not, we found out we were pregnant with our second. And... Had you not. I just want to clear up the the clutter here. how do you not found that out? Your life would have a very different completely. Yeah. Wow. Completely. And similar to what you were saying is, you know, going and thinking that this is the path that we're going to pursue. That's, you know, through hockey and then, then the realization of setting in and going through the, the myriad emotions, the, the grieving, the disappointment, and then finding something else and pivoting to that. and,
00:27:45
Speaker
all circling around this idea of that divergence that I had of thinking of all the things I could be to fulfill this role that that needs to be done as provider of stability, of producer, of taking care, of providing structure for myself and others. It's it's slowly over time, the the narrowing of those things ah to saying, well, there's there's a trade-off here. I can keep trying to push for this. But that role itself is not just for me.
00:28:20
Speaker
It's increasingly about others, not just from the perspective of what I deliver to them, but what is acceptable to them, what is demanded from them. wow And I think that's the part also that can feel like I am seen only as the role that provides value to other people. I want to get back to something you said a second ago about career fantasizing.
00:28:45
Speaker
So looking at these other options in each one of those roles, you went through some type of a critical evaluation of, yes, I still think this one is a good fit, but at some point that
Career Path Influences
00:28:55
Speaker
would change. and You realize, yeah, there's no way I could be an ice cream man or whatever. Right.
00:28:59
Speaker
Was it because in that specific situation you realized I don't see the fulfillment or this is not something that I was designed to do or like, what was the process? How did you move on from one of those tendencies to the next?
00:29:12
Speaker
I think there's a time component to it that says in order to reach some degree of mastery on this path, you Am I willing to put the time in for that? Okay. And bumping that up against things that actually are important to me. Yeah. I mean, there was a period of time when I thought I was going to be a doctor. Okay. There was a period when I was going to a lawyer. Like you could just go through the list and there's always, there was a point of trying certain things on and the time demands for some of them precluded
00:29:44
Speaker
me from saying, oh yeah, I want to do that. sure the The primary reason for not becoming a doctor would be the time component. And that time component says, I did have an appetite for getting started with a family.
00:29:58
Speaker
So that's a role that I wanted to to take on. Yeah. Again, you recognize that fairly fairly fairly young. And when I looked at what it would be required in order for me to postpone fulfillment of those roles, oh yeah Then going down the path of being a doctor and that that just put postponed it to too long. And that's actually what led also to what the decision to withdraw from entering the Navy because the roles of wanting to be present, of wanting to be, to to witness those did not fit with me. And when i pulled and made that pivot and the disappointment and grieving that went along with, this is one that I had some strong dreams associated with this. Yeah.
00:30:41
Speaker
There was some long-term impact to, I was going to be, i had the choice between going in as a pilot or on the intelligence side. I was going to choose and what had chosen the intelligence path and was going to, I had had gone down the the imagination, the wild imaginations of coming out of the service and eventually staying within that intelligence space. And moving to Hawaii, growing a mustache and driving a Ferrari. I mean, Magnum PI...
00:31:08
Speaker
First, so i mean, there's two things here. yeah Tom Selleck is one of those that i would say, like, I only wish I could grow are you a mustache of that stature. yeah My dad and I watched Magnum PI i together. I thought it was required viewing. I didn't think it was an option. Yes.
Balancing Dreams with Reality
00:31:26
Speaker
um After we get done recording this, I'll just probably put the the theme song on loop and listen to it for a while. Careful. I don't know that we can afford the litigation that may come after that, but yes, we should do that. Actually, we don't need to. Everybody has that sealed into their memory. Exactly.
00:31:42
Speaker
But I think this this negotiation that happens between the roles that we are both expected and the ones we want to fulfill. Yeah. leads to that sense of there are compromises that come alongside that at times.
00:31:58
Speaker
I've had a lot of those pivots. Like when when i even before, you know, I had lots of different interests and one of those was um around film school and cinematography and that's why I studied that and and had plans of working behind the camera in Hollywood as well. And and once things had settled down and that we got past the Navy,
00:32:20
Speaker
I did end up going and working for one of the large production studios, one of the large media companies. But I ended up on the business side. And the reason I ended up on the business side is because similar to that conversation around what it takes to become a doctor, a fully fledged doctor that is not living hand to mouth.
00:32:41
Speaker
Yeah. Working behind the camera and climbing the ranks there. That's the life experience you just described. Like you're never gonna see your family. You're gonna never going see the family and you're never going see money that would sustain a family. And I had made other choices for other roles that I was fulfilling as a father, as a, as a husband. that I needed to reconcile the fact that I made choices that came with some pragmatic demands on me. yeah And finances was the big one.
00:33:11
Speaker
What I wanted to do with my family, what I wanted to be able to provide for them and myself, it was just much more lucrative to go down that path being on the business side of media. yeah I got the delight of being proximal to the things that I really in my heart of hearts wanted to be doing, which was creating, which was telling stories.
00:33:37
Speaker
So I got to be proximal to that, but it still came with trade-offs. I don't have regrets, but I do carry with me the what-ifs. Oh my gosh.
00:33:48
Speaker
That is impossible to shut off that switch. I have found. Yeah. and And a lot of that is, is role specific. Am I satisfied in the choices that I've been, that I have made or the choices that I feel I have been forced into?
Compromise in Roles
00:34:06
Speaker
That's a mixed bag.
00:34:07
Speaker
That word that I was just saying, regret. I have not even reconciled that completely. The regret that comes up oftentimes or beckons at me, particularly like even right now.
00:34:19
Speaker
yeah like right Right now, I've made the choice to step away from the corporate environment. yeah And with what's happening in the world and some of the the roles that I must play regardless of my choice in the matter. I didn't choose for Claire to get in injured. I did choose...
00:34:38
Speaker
I did choose regardless of whether I knew the full impact of the choices I was making at the time. I chose to state vows that said through sickness and in health. And that was regardless of of whether it was us. It was also for our children. Yeah.
00:34:55
Speaker
I made those that choice. I didn't choose, and nor was any of what would happen to Claire on the horizon, but I was there and I had a role to play and I i had a choice whether I was going to fulfill that role to the best of my ability or not. But when when things now have gotten to where they are, where Claire is losing support services and and those are things that are coming from this world, our ability to fulfill the roles that we have made active choices, that I have made an active choice to, specifically on that role of provider, of deliverer of stability and structure, and the world is basically saying,
00:35:36
Speaker
Well, we're going through a transition now where stability and structure is the last thing that we're solving for at this point. You're on your own. Yes. Yeah. Then I have to start saying, do I have to compromise on that role that I have for myself, which is to be true to myself, to the values that I have and that the corporate world oftentimes is in conflict with those. Yeah.
00:36:02
Speaker
But in order to fulfill my role as a provider of stability, as a provider for a situation that is differential to many of my peers, or do I now make more compromises of having to go back into that environment in order to provide that? And so there's a big aspect here of looking back and
Life's Truths and Role Choices
00:36:23
Speaker
seeing the competition between all the roles I need to play and the roles I want to play and the way I want to play them. And this goes back to kind of that question of compromises is that there it feels like there are some compromises that yield paths that are beautiful and in new ways. But there are some compromises that yield paths that I detest.
00:36:47
Speaker
And yet I must play the role regardless. Yeah. I i mean, that's such a powerful statement and I hate to sully the sentiment of what you just said, but I think we all have experienced on some level. But I also should say though, as a kid thinking about what is my life going to look like, could have never anticipated some of those things that were uncomfortable or incongruous to what your mission and vision were. And I know those are big words for a kid, but Like, yeah, why would I ever want to have to compromise? As a kid, the beauty of what we describe as like innocence and, yeah and the ability to imagine the world without constraints.
00:37:31
Speaker
Part of the, the roles that we must choose is a increasing recognition of the truths of life from which we can't negotiate. And, and,
00:37:44
Speaker
And I think these five are ones that that as they become more apparent that there will be no escape from these things. Life is hard. You are not important or as important as you think you are. yep Your life is not about you.
00:37:59
Speaker
You are not in control. And ultimately, you are going to die. This is the pep talk version of Tyler's pep talk. Yeah.
Staying True to Oneself
00:38:08
Speaker
Those are the pieces that increasingly as they become louder and we start to recognize that picking the roles in conflict with those or believing that I'm picking roles, which is what I did to some degree, one hand saying money is going to make life easier. We all want to believe that to be true, right?
00:38:33
Speaker
And then finding that, oh, but that brings, now now I'm in a role that- Self perpetuates, really. Yeah. I have to make more money to avoid this thing that's coming. Yes. And then it just becomes greater stakes. That's the part that as kids, we start out with this optimistic view. Yeah, sure. That I want to choose this thing that doesn't feel hard. It might be hard.
00:38:57
Speaker
Sure. But I don't want it to feel like work. her her your labor, yeah exhaustion for all the wrong reasons. I want to choose the hard that whether that's profession, whether that is relationship, romantic relationship, whether that is showing up ah as a father, whether that's showing up as a friend, I want to choose the hard that is in line with who I am. And that leads right in the next thing, but it's not about you. As long as you're using that lens every single time, you're For me, it it is almost that if I was to go back to my younger self and say, and prepare them for this, but there there's a point in my life when I felt that, well, I should clue that kid into all those five things. I should tell him, hey, by the way, life is hard. like And yet I find that to be an immaturity of a previous version of myself that would do that.
00:39:51
Speaker
That to me feels like a form of invasion and cynicism that why would I ever want to to give that to to a kid? And I think that's oftentimes our view in terms of what it means to be male is is our job, our role is to deliver the truth.
00:40:10
Speaker
right The hard truth to those who are coming up so that we season them for the unempathetic view that the world has towards what it means to express the way that we did
Advice to Younger Selves
00:40:24
Speaker
when we were kids. yeah The only truth of that scenario is that you have to learn it the hard way. Even if you had the ability to go back and say, hey, this is going to suck.
00:40:32
Speaker
You're not going to listen. You have no context. It's going to have to be, oh man, that is something I wish to never repeat. yeah Or if I do have to, going to do everything totally different and having that wisdom, right?
00:40:42
Speaker
That would be folly of me to say any of those things. My advice to my younger self, if I was to go back to it, is remember this. Remember who you are right now.
00:40:53
Speaker
Remember through the lens of your experience as it accumulates. But you are going to forget. Yeah. And, and you are going to increasingly want to forget remembering will be painful, but what's going to be beckoning you in whatever role that you fulfill is remembering this form of expression right now, this sense of awe and wonder.
00:41:18
Speaker
This sense of desire to belong. Sure. This sense of desire for camaraderie, this sense of desire for surprise. Yeah. At times.
00:41:29
Speaker
But how you decide to fulfill those things is either going to help you remember and be closer to this version of yourself in a way that's authentic and genuine and pure and life giving.
00:41:43
Speaker
Or you're going to choose mechanisms of forgetting this that transmit more pain, that inflict more damage, not only on yourself, but the things that are most important to you. And they are going to undermine the roles that you are accepting as life continues to go on. And and I would have to find a way to say that in a way that a five, six or seven year old would understand that but i think the the most cogent version of that is remember this yeah and come back to this when you lose sight of who you are when you find yourself engaging in immature things that you know are violations of everything that you hold dear yeah remember this and return to it
00:42:30
Speaker
What you just said reminds me of a trend in social media that I've seen where people have come on and said listen, I don't
Childhood Dreams vs. Reality
00:42:39
Speaker
know what you're going through. i don't know where you're at in life, but just know that the 12-year-old version of you would look at what you're doing right now and be so elated. That's such a cool little thing to carry around and just recognize, yeah, I've made these choices because this is in line with who I am and who I want to be. We don't have all the answers. nor should we, but, um, yeah, there is some comfort in knowing that.
00:43:04
Speaker
All right. I haven't let that one down. That 12 year old me is my biggest cheerleader now. And that's huge. There's a director and filmmaker out there that is on its surface. I think one of the most ridiculous versions of what it means to embrace Hollywood and, and produce, but, but has fought for,
00:43:26
Speaker
Yeah. To not compromise on his view of being in touch with that 12 year old self. Yeah. And at the end of one of his movies, he talks about this. at The creator is Adam Sandler. Oh, I thought you were going in a different direction. And the movie is Mr. Deeds. At the end of that movie, he's making an impassioned plea to an audience of shareholders. Right. oh And one of those in particular, he asked me, what did you want to be? I wanted to be veterinarian. What did you become?
00:43:52
Speaker
I own meatpacking plant. us and Oh, kind of went the opposite direction there, didn't you? But then ask some the question, what would your previous self say to you? yeah Which is really interesting. Oh, man. Is the opposite. because we just talked about what would we say to them, but what would they say to us is what you proposed. Yeah. And he says, he'd kick my ass.
Reconnecting with Younger Self
00:44:14
Speaker
like And I think there's something about that was saying, that's bad what are the things that we do now in what we believe is the fulfillment of our roles, the defending of those that if we were to go back would say, where the hell did you lose sight of yourself? And I'm going to kick your ass now for you getting this far away from who you actually are. Yeah.
00:44:40
Speaker
A number of movies that I can think about that have some version of some wizened individual looking that jaded, cynical individual in the eyes and saying to remember who you are. yeah That is the thing that i I think so many of us as individuals, but specifically as men, we forget who we are. in the fulfillment of our roles transactionally we forget that there's a relationship to the roles that we decide that we choose to to to take on that the minute that we forget who we are we're we're empty suits we are we've lost our soul what you proposed with that 12 year old picture is a reclamation of soul perhaps i hope that would be the message
00:45:31
Speaker
Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together.
Conclusion: Reflection and Connection
00:45:41
Speaker
If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
00:45:50
Speaker
And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface-level advice, subscribe to our kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com. Good Bain is recorded in Colorado on Arapahoe, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands.
00:46:07
Speaker
And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.