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Goodpain Podcast Season 02, Episode No. 010: The Maturity Difference
90 Plays1 month ago
We're back! After a nearly two-month hiatus, we have a number of interviews and discussions ready as we run out the remainder of this season.
In this return episode Jeremy and Tyler consider the statement "A mature man doesn't need to prove his strength; he creates safety for others to discover theirs." Multiple questions are explored in this conversation, and relies on some current conversations to inform it including the recent Netfflix released documentary, Louis Theroux's Inside the Manosphere alongside the literary classic, Lord of the Flies.
Questions Explored:
- "What does it mean to be strong enough to be gentle without being weak?"
- "How do you know when your actions come from mature power versus the need to prove something?"
- "What would change in your relationships if you stopped trying to fix or save people and started trusting them to find their own way?"
- "When you think of the legacy you want to leave, what qualities matter more than achievements?"
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Good Pain podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Are we gonna continue to convince ourselves that this is the way the world is? This is the rules of the world? where are we going to find the courage to say, I am absolutely terrified of looking in that mirror and I will look regardless.
00:00:16
Speaker
I'm Jeremy. And I'm Tyler. Welcome to Good Pain, where we talk about life's true intensities without pretending they're easy solve. What if the things we're told to fix, optimize, or get over are actually where the real wisdom lives?
00:00:29
Speaker
Each week we gather for the kind of honest conversations you desire to be a part of more often about the relentless demands, the unexpected grief, the quiet victories, and everything in between. Because maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't to eliminate the hard stuff, it's to find the good in it.
Return from Hiatus and Focus on Masculinity
00:00:45
Speaker
Welcome to the conversation.
00:00:58
Speaker
It's been two months since we last published our Good Pain podcast episode, and in that period that we were taking a hiatus, we have been collecting new interviews with special guests, as well as continuing the conversation between Jeremy and i on this topic of masculinity. One thing that was missing from the first half of the season was female voices.
00:01:19
Speaker
And so in the second half, we are working to expand the diversity of voices that are shared on this topic. and We're excited to be back. Next week, we'll be sharing some exciting information as well regarding a special honor that Good Pain Podcast has received. And we'll be sharing more about that in the coming weeks.
00:01:39
Speaker
This week is one of our more topical discussions where we use words like Manosphere, particularly because it has been a big topic of discussion with the release of Louis Thoreau's Inside the Manosphere documentary on Netflix. A little bit of a longer conversation with this episode being about an hour and 20 minutes.
00:01:56
Speaker
Stick with us through the whole thing. We cover a lot of ground in this conversation and we're happy to be back.
00:02:09
Speaker
It has been a while. You've been off and chatting with other interesting people, which is great. Coming back into today, we have some things to discuss, some of which are topical, some of which are um topical more globally, but also ah very much on point for what we're talking about in the context of
The Burden of Fixing Broken Things
00:02:25
Speaker
this. Where do you think we should start as far as where we left off and the transition into our talking point It didn't come to me until you just said it. Kind of the global context of what we're dealing with is i think a lot of the nature of the conversation is around how do we fix things that are broken? yeah And a lot of us are experiencing just in general ah the fact that we are having to witness. There's a lot of brokenness. around A lot of brokenness right now.
00:02:51
Speaker
And, and what's interesting about this is, is that even coming in to this conversation and reflecting on the first half of the season, I, I'm feeling that pull to want to speak.
00:03:06
Speaker
I was going to start with saying aspirationally. but more and more about what's possible. And and I think that's that's an interesting part is is that our ability to, my ability to imagine what's possible. And I use those two words very specifically.
00:03:21
Speaker
Imagination and possibility um are tied together. Well, what's possible is is limited or expanded by the capabilities of my imagination. I think it's very hard for for many people right now.
00:03:34
Speaker
And ah at times for me, i have experiences is... Trusting that what is happening right now on ah not on a global basis, in in neighborhoods, in interacting with people, it's sometimes really hard to imagine reconciliation. It's hard to imagine things even being fixed.
Societal Expectations of Men
00:03:52
Speaker
and And I think that oftentimes goes at the heart of of what I've experienced as as a boy becoming a man at immaturity levels, at mature periods of time is is wanting to fix and And I think that's a little bit of the nature of what we want to explore loosely here is what does it mean to be a fixer? What does it mean to be in relationship with people where we see each other as carrying problems or challenges and that how we interact is with solutions or we're if we fix this or we root cause it? Yeah. Then things get better. And coming to the realization that, that at least the longer that I'm around is, is that turning myself or the world into a constant project is exhausting work and misses out on a lot of experience. Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:49
Speaker
ah So many thoughts here. So the dynamic of fixing, I feel there's elements of satisfaction that happens within the dynamic of being able to create solutions, help people with where they're at, what they need to do, whatever the specific or long-term challenges are. But I think there's also a dynamic of training,
00:05:09
Speaker
ah early on where there's an expectation put on boys about, oh, well, this is just what what men do. Can you please serve in this capacity then fixing?
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, but I think also there's there's an expectation about, well, this is this is not really what girls do. This is more of a boys thing. And so there's some dynamic of conditioning that culturally there's an expectation there, but I think it also helps to build onto something that's already inherently in us about the fixing.
00:05:38
Speaker
and And I don't know what the context of this can be, but I don't think that there's a limitation. I think that if it's a physical thing that we can either lift or push or turn a wrench or something to fix.
00:05:51
Speaker
then that's one avenue. But there's also dynamics that speak to the more relational thing that I think you're alluding to you about when you get into relationships with everybody. The dynamic is quickly going to move into that. Well, let's talk about it. Well, why would we talk about it when could just make this problem go away, right? There's efficiency there.
00:06:12
Speaker
The part that you pointed out of kind of the socialization of what it means to be male. Yeah. versus what might be inherently built biological, genetic, whatever we want to say, is is interesting um for me because yeah through through a functional lens, right? It is that we live in a world that is hard. We live in a world that that we can talk about things of what it takes to survive,
00:06:43
Speaker
Right. um In order to put food on the table, in order to, to put a, a, a, a roof over your heads, to
Relevance of Traditional Male Roles
00:06:51
Speaker
the car running, whatever. Yes. All of those pieces says that, that, and, and, and much of that is, is based also and predicated on, on,
00:06:59
Speaker
how we've built the world. Like we, ah I've felt periods of times where, Oh man, would it be awesome to be more simple and to reduce the number of things that require some functional expertise from me?
00:07:16
Speaker
resting squarely on your specific shoulders that that that i am the one best suited right in to to meet those things yeah in order to justify some degree of of the biological makeup that i have that that the that that others in my house do not sure it's biologically yes i have higher testosterone that yields a higher concentration of, of, uh, low Twitch and high Twitch muscle fibers in my body that allow me to exert more force so that when Tiffany shakes a bottle yeah yesterday, um with Claire's, uh, Claire's food in it, and then she goes to open that bottle and cannot do it and is struggling it yeah She brings it over to me and it is a little, it's more effortless. Sure.
00:08:10
Speaker
and and And so in those kinds of situations, those are just pragmatic examples of where the things that that biologically, I didn't have a choice on whether I came out with a Y or a second X chromosome. I didn't have any of those. But those biological ah advantages, well, I mean, i hesitate to even use that word because advantages...
00:08:31
Speaker
is functionally predicated on the world we create around us. so If we don't have jars, yeah if we don't have these, like if if this, I actually think starts to point at some of the struggles that we have is, is that some of the world that we have created in order to mitigate some of those survival requirements doesn't require the same response that historically there was a need for.
00:09:00
Speaker
You're describing the evolution that we have a softer environment of survival here, right? There's a lot of provision, there's a lot of other technologies and mechanisms in place so that we're not in this hunter-gatherer dynamic every single day, that we're also going to be on the other end of that hunting thing. We could be the prey. Yeah. Instead of the predator. Yeah. So yeah, all of the stuff is taking us down a path that maybe we don't need some of those, those gifts, those strengths. And it's, it's hard to like, like you and I, we, we know people have been talking about these things for a long Yeah. This is not new. This is not new. This is not.
00:09:37
Speaker
And, and I don't want it to be cliche. I i have to present that we have all the answers. Maybe we, we, exactly. But so, so then the, the, the questions, like, what are we getting at in terms of the questions? I think that, you know, what, what we have here on the board I'll, I'll, I'll read the statement that's at the top. Like the, part of, I'll, I'll make this, this, the hypothesis is is that a mature man does not need to prove his strength.
00:10:04
Speaker
He creates safety for others to discover theirs. And, and I, I won't defend that or anything. Just say that that that that is a little bit here of of saying, is that true?
00:10:15
Speaker
Sure. do do we Do we believe that? Because in a perverse sense, when it when it comes to my sense of meaning, what happens when a world moves towards not requiring those same survival skills? yeah And the the out one of the outstanding questions for me is, do i seek to cling to that sense of survival as justifying my meaning yeah and potentially perversely start doing things that that increase the risk yeah so that I'm the only one who can solve that? Yeah. And and as I'm saying this, i'll I'll just betray the fact that I do believe that's a significant portion of what we are subject to in this world right now that we have created where there is enough resources, there's enough abundance, there's enough know-how, there's enough for us to actually solve some of those core survival pieces. And yet...
00:11:12
Speaker
We, we keep creating situations where it almost seems we're scared yeah of some degree of peace or taking care of each other at just those foundational levels any longer. So we've got a manufacture bigger and, and, and batter just to, just to, to, to, to simply justify and validate that. our own importance and meaning and purpose in the world. And and part of my response to that is not part, it's no. yeah
00:11:43
Speaker
that is That is, you want to talk about
Lack of Mature Guidance in Society
00:11:46
Speaker
courage. We want to talk about strength. i I anchor much more to that is is that as the world changes, what do I do to continue to serve other people cultivating their own strength? It's really hard because I think that we do the things that you were talking about and manufacture those experiences or receive situations where we could have the feedback that we are in fact valuable in these contexts. Very basic, very foundational things, but also we're not helping to evolve and escalate out of it so that we can look externally towards how we can use whatever gifts we might have towards supporting other people.
00:12:28
Speaker
We're basically feeding right into the system that we're talking about as maybe flawed. Yeah, but we just gravitate right back into all of the things that we're talking about as maybe not great. I hear you just, it's it's a it's a trap, right? Like yeah it's this vicious feedback loop that says, i have meaning today. I have i have a meaning now in this context. Because? Because of these things. We've talked about the disappearance of elders and where we' started wisdom holders. Yeah. and And the fact that there is such a hunger for that.
00:13:03
Speaker
I think this conversation is going to be pretty relevant to what's happening. not only right now, but also the nature some of the conversations that are taking place. And so one of those is what was released in the last couple of weeks when we recorded this on Netflix was Louis Thoreau's um Inside the Manosphere documentary, which has really Netflix is doing a mass push to get this out there and drive a lot of the conversation. I'm going to represent the listening audience that might not be familiar. i have no idea what this is. Yeah. So Louis Thoreau is a British investigative journalist who has a very specific style.
00:13:44
Speaker
We won't go down the path of whether I enjoy his style or not because he has a style. He has a very specific style, but what he does is he, he goes and, and finds inroads with specific male influencers and that manosphere being that echo chamber At its most extreme misogynistic. Right.
00:14:04
Speaker
Thump my chest. Sure. Get as much money status achievement orientation. And without naming names, I think we could all pinpoint somebody in our world that we're familiar with that fits that category, sometimes globally, sometimes locally. I'm thinking of the character in um Magnolia with Tom Cruise, right? This is who we're talking about. Yeah. Like ah a forerunner to the the word manosphere, yeah which is, yes, that is that is a great example of that.
00:14:32
Speaker
For me, what was interesting was was not the personalities that are covered. I think that those personalities, these are, you even get to to see in the documentary, these are injured individuals.
00:14:45
Speaker
Comes from somewhere. And if yeah, I would just say is like these these are who have found a way to make a living by transmitting their own pain. And and and but but what's the most interesting thing about this is the following. Yeah. The degree of people that see them on the street who idolize them, who adulate them.
00:15:05
Speaker
As I watched it it, it was just very clear. Some of the things we've been talking about in in terms of the absence of those elders, those those wisdom holders who can create a broader definition of what success looks like and give that picture of what it means to be more genuine, be more authentic.
00:15:24
Speaker
to actually be courageous to step into the uncertainty of of whether you can take care of yourself and still take care of other people without demeaning other people or stepping on other people all of us if we were to step out of whatever the contexts were in there causing us stress fear anxiety smallness Right.
00:15:54
Speaker
it is going to be someone that that we truly look up to and that the individuals that are a part of the manosphere would not qualify for that and And unfortunately, those individuals in the manosphere don't have anything else to look up to. yeah yeah and And that's inherently back to this problem of we don't have those individuals that have evolved in this space to shepherd, to come alongside, to do exactly what we just said here, create safety for others to discover their actual strengths, not just the external strengths that they think give them power and status. To show real maturity. Real maturity.
00:16:36
Speaker
So I'm struck, like almost a wave of this conversation, and I'm shocked that we haven't brought this up before. And maybe I have, and my memory is slipping. I don't know. But um we've seen this play out step by step in ah the book or the film Lord of the Flies. where group of young boys, for anybody who hasn't seen it or read it, they're shipwrecked or abandoned, they're on this island, and then all the social constructs are new, right? They went to school together, they knew each other, but now with the absence of adult leadership or supervision,
00:17:07
Speaker
They have to sort out all of these things. What is my value? How do I fit in with the rest of this group, my, my society, my culture? And, um, how do I not be taking advantage of, of some of those people that are a bit more ambitious towards that alpha dynamic? And this is exactly, it's just a microcosm of what we've been talking about this entire time. Really? Where does that end up? Like, yeah. Where where do they end up? Right. Like, and yeah and I think that it was savage. it It was savage, but they end up in a very sobered position right where where based on what they've done to themselves, I'll start with based on what they've done to each other, they learn they were doing that to themselves. right
00:17:47
Speaker
And when they learn that, they realize they have they have killed their own innocence. They have killed... and and and and And I want to be clear here also about that word innocence is because that in ah that word innocence we use so flippantly sometimes. One, to talk about childhood innocence sure as if you are blameless. But then we talk about innocence in terms of a perpetrator on whether they are guilty or not.
00:18:15
Speaker
and And what ends up happening is is that the the safety of their childhood, of their naivete yeah is is is a pass for only so long.
00:18:28
Speaker
sure And then they keep making incremental choices to finally to the point where they know enough that they are They are inflicting violence on one another. They are inflicting, they are killing each other. And there is a literal death in that book right that is highly symbolic also of the the death that they they are no longer children. Nope, that ship has passed. That's right. and and And at some point, you have to stop behaving or believing that you can hide or cower in this lens of this immature childhood. You know enough that you are now perpetrating harm. You have done that.
00:19:12
Speaker
And now you are accountable. right And part of what I think we are asking is, when does that point happen where you have the courage? right to take accountability. So it's hard because the last conversation you and I had was the expectation of self-acknowledgement that, oh, I'm doing this thing that's outside of what my values are or what the the mentoring that I wish to achieve. once Once that is established, then this conversation gets much easier. if You don't have the ability to recognize, oh, wait a second, it's me. I'm the problem, right? Right. then, um then yeah, why wouldn't you continue on going down this path? And it requires external sources. We, all the conversations had, but it's, it is not an assumption that we should make that everybody's going to get to that level of acknowledgement or maturation.
00:20:11
Speaker
What do you think is the without with the absence of something outside yourself? Yeah. Basically waving hands at you saying you're on the wrong path. You're doing things. Yeah. You you are and holding you
Personal Growth and Self-Reflection
00:20:26
Speaker
accountable. How do we learn the skills to hold ourselves accountable? Yeah.
00:20:33
Speaker
It just feels like there's got to be and event to correct one trajectory of the path that we're on. So you had talked about the death that happened in this book, and i think everybody was able to, it was sobering. They were able to realize, oh my gosh, who we become?
00:20:49
Speaker
But I think that happens in our lives in poignant moments, not every day, because these are big. ah But I think without that event and the absence of somebody guiding or leading,
00:21:01
Speaker
then there is no correction. Of course, you're going to continue to have that path until you do hit the event. And I think that's, that's the part that's coming to mind. That is the real thing that creates change. What were your thoughts? No, I, I'm, I agree with you.
00:21:16
Speaker
And, and when I look at where we are culturally yeah is that, that inherently in a culture that blames everything else and externalizes everything and says it's, it's somebody else's fault, which is a cop out. That's right. who um Right. It's,
00:21:31
Speaker
and And this is one thing that that was very clear also in in the way that the conversations went with these influencers in this documentary, Inside the Manosphere, is is that the explanations have nothing to do with themselves. Influencers themselves have no problem with with with convincing themselves that they are entitled to the just desserts of their behavior. Yeah.
00:21:55
Speaker
But the reason they say that they have made the choices that they have is because of the way the world is. They're just a part of the system. What is so deeply dangerous about that is is the fact that that there is an element of truth in what they're seeing about the world. Okay, sure. That it has been exploitative. But at no point does do do they answer the they ask the question of themselves is is that does anybody else's behavior and the choices that they're making justify who I am in the process of becoming? yeah yeah that is
00:22:35
Speaker
i will I will say this. They are too scared and they do not and have not developed the courage or the strength to be able to face that question for themselves.
Mentorship and Community Building
00:22:46
Speaker
And this is where, you know, that is where I would say wisdom holders and elders need to be coming alongside. That's where I would say, like, that's what is missing is, is that historically we have had periods of time where there have been older men. Yeah.
00:23:03
Speaker
who have graduated into that space, whether that was because of their own creating collateral damage around them and seeing the blood that they carried on their hands and and sobering up themselves and saying, i will carry the shame. I will carry the guilt yeah of what I did to other people in service to my own ego, my own self-aggrandizement.
00:23:27
Speaker
And the only way I can make amends for that is to share and bring back what I have learned through that transformative experience to those after me.
00:23:38
Speaker
And we don't have that right now. Right. But what we can say is, is that we're in that moment of the Lord of the flies where without, you know, yes, it's, I think it's been around for 75 years. So spoiler alert, but you know, piggy dies.
00:23:51
Speaker
they Like it's, we are in the process of creating that sobering environment. Yeah. And, and I think the question that we need to be prepared to ask is, is, is this is like, what are we doing? It's interesting just saying on the spin of four for a second about Lord of the flies. um they had the event, uh, death of piggy was the big one. and then i think everybody was able to realize, oh my gosh, how did we get to this place or whatever?
00:24:17
Speaker
And then the transition to the end of the story was that then there was this rescue team that found them and they were right back into the society that they grew up knowing and all that stuff. They had mature level-headed dentists, they had rules, they had all that stuff.
00:24:33
Speaker
But in a way, it was unfortunate, and i understand why the arc of the story had to end that way, but I would have loved to have seen, because of what you just described, what they did next. They realized, oh, wait a second.
00:24:45
Speaker
We've got to do better, and not just for you and not for the group, but I've got to do better for me because I cannot live with myself. knowing that I caused the death or the harm of this other person. And I was very callous towards that. And that's where the real development I think was about to happen. So I would have loved to have seen this play out in another 18 chapters or whatever. yeah so yeah And unfortunately people don't have the benefit of recognizing this and seeing it um from the 20,000 line.
00:25:14
Speaker
a view of this. And so they put it in real time. and But that maturity piece, I think, is where you can start to recognize, coming full circle, the value that we falsely, or maybe not falsely, but we've grown up feeling in some capacity as men, as providing that service. Service can also transition into ways that are outside of physical things. And so with that, we started opening up about how do we do better as far as mentoring? How do we, how do we really keep younger generations on a path that's not self-destructive, but also is beneficial for their community around them? Yeah. I need the answer now, Tyler. Yes.
00:25:56
Speaker
I mean, carrying over from what yeah we were just talking about is that that question of how do we for the net yeah is that question of of legacy. And i and and i i I find it hard to answer the question of legacy unless we have had that yeah that decentering experience that says, oh, i'm I'm not the center of the universe.
00:26:19
Speaker
and and And let's be, i want to make that come to life back to what we talking about with the fixer discussion is is that, you know, for me growing up, ah i was i was good at solving problems and i was i was I was good at being curious and investigating and saying like,
00:26:39
Speaker
and seeing where there was possibility. I, I had a very active imagination. i think a lot of us loved the, the just process of building forts, something that hadn't been there before. We, you bet we, we imagine it and so powerful. Yes. and And we work together with other kids in the neighborhood and, and we do that. And like,
00:27:02
Speaker
That's where you and I are different. I was much better working solo, but that's, that's a different conversation. Yes. Yes. It, it, it, it. Can I tell you? Yeah. Uh, I saw a funny, uh, meme the other day about, um, somebody who said, when I die, I would like for everybody that I've been on a group project on, uh, so they could let me down one last time. Yes. So that's been my mindset all of my life.
00:27:24
Speaker
I ah will have to talk about group projects at another time because I think i think our approach was very reflective of what happens for a lot of of
Leadership in Chaos
00:27:35
Speaker
individuals. And we'll we'll keep this on talking about boys is this that you either move off into a form of solitude or or or isolate isolation, whether that's chosen or or or involuntary. Yeah. um Mine was different.
00:27:48
Speaker
yeah Mine was using my horsepower and my potential. To just always be a few steps ahead of, of the people that were a part of the group. I think we talked about Tiffany when when, when we start first met, we, I mean, Tiffany and I met in the eighth grade and, uh, we were fast enemies. You mentioned, Yes. And one of the things there were, there were a handful of circumstantial pieces that contributed to that. One of which was, I helped, I would hold the door open for everybody. And Tiffany took umbrage with that of like, who does this guy think he is? The nerve of this clown. Yeah. Now that's going to be a theme for Tiffany who does this guy think he is? Because the next one was she, we, we were in a group project and, um, we came together as the group, uh, these 14 year old, 13 and 14 year old eighth graders, you know, um, having our little board meeting around the desk, um, speaking of who's going to do what, what are going to do? What's the,
00:28:52
Speaker
What's the scope? What's the focus here? And okay, great. Monday rolls around after a weekend. I walk in and I drop the project on the desk. I did the whole thing. Everything's done guys. yeah welcome And how the majority of the group is like, this is awesome. We love her. And Tiffany's over there, you know, petting her cats, plotting the evil things she's going to be doing against this, this guy.
00:29:18
Speaker
Who does he think is? And, and, and that's, and yes, that blossomed into, at least I don't think we're enemies any longer. I can attest. We have three kids and there was a change of course yeah for this relationship. Yeah. Beautiful girls later. Yeah.
00:29:36
Speaker
but I do think that's a, it is, i think we have some degree of at least some dichotomy there of in this world where we have to survive, where group projects are thrust upon us because I don't i don't know many people that choose group projects in in class yeah because it's something that's a real pleasant experience. This is the world that's been constructed for us.
00:30:00
Speaker
And I think you what you talked about with Lord of the Flies is a really interesting picture where when you're thrust in a world that's been completely deconstructed or is a jungle or is out to get you. right i have a hard time. no i I don't have a hard time. i All of this world right now is that jungle.
00:30:20
Speaker
that that that's that is the we are in We are living that degree of chaos right now where up is down, down is up. Who's in charge? Yes. And what is my place in it?
00:30:31
Speaker
And we are, we are stuck in a massive group project with a whole bunch of individuals who believe that in my case, we're best to, to lead the efforts to just get this done. Right. others who are like, let me please escape this nonsense that's going on. Sure.
00:30:49
Speaker
And I think that's the question yeah is, is that so, so what do we do when that's a like, what's the, do we go the path of the book and what it says, which is we embrace the chaos and we just start doing whatever, everything we can to arrest our fears and anxieties about just surviving? Or is there something else out there that's a different possibility? And that is the possibility, right? is is that and but But it goes to, for me, going back to that aspect of being me, being a fixer, being a problem solver, being somebody who can can speak well and can gra you know gravitate toward something in other people. Right.
00:31:31
Speaker
that is fearful and anxious and and offer them a sense of security and stability. And i can do that by coming up with very pragmatic solutions. Why am I doing that?
00:31:45
Speaker
That's the question that routinely comes up for me, whether it's as a parent, whether it's as a friend. And I think it goes back to what is on our board with the second question. What does it mean to trust others to find their own way And what if some degree of chaos is needed for that?
00:32:06
Speaker
Can i do I have the courage? Do I have the strength for watching it? and And there have been more times than not that I have not been okay watching it. And that's where I find myself inserting myself into the to the the problem, getting myself in the middle of that and saying, hey, I'll lead us out of this. I'll give you the solution. Where do you draw the line with that? Because I've seen this play out for you, ah with you in those situations. And it is it's really calming. And it's also comforting to know, oh great, this task, this thing that was overwhelming, whatever that looks like, But for you to be able to have that voice and coming in and say, okay, I've got some thoughts. We could do it this way. And and you draw people in in a really amazing way. So it's not just like, let me just handle this.
00:32:56
Speaker
You guys go go to the beach, do whatever, go relax. um But my question to you is, Where does that distinction lie with what we talked about initially as the fixture of, okay, I could just handle this. Let me just do this.
00:33:08
Speaker
Versus in a dynamic of, I want to do this here because of leadership, because of helping the situation. like What's the distinction there? I'm going to task you with making sure i answer that question because I'm going to, I, I do believe I'll get there, but you know me well enough that sometimes it takes a while. okay Um, and, and this, this one, I'm going to first start with actually my experience of, of last week,
00:33:35
Speaker
I was involved in training exercises for bor therapists. and And as part of that, the construct is that it's a very collaborative environment. When you go into to training and and learning and developing skills for what it means to do psychotherapy or or sit with people when they're they're gripped by life's experiences,
00:33:59
Speaker
and the depression and anxiety and and all the things that come along with the fullness of that experience. You have to submit yourself to that. The way we go about submitting ourselves to that is we do skills training. And usually that means you have a smaller group. Sometimes it's two people.
00:34:15
Speaker
Okay. And you're taking turns. One person's being the client and one person's being the counselor sometimes it's it's it's always some degree of an intimate group but in in this instance it involved uh about seven people in the room and at any given time all involved with one conversation ah so um All, all there're there's, they all are going to have different roles. Okay. So, so the structure of that is, is that throughout a day you are going to, as an individual, me, I'm going to play one of three roles. I'm going to play the role of the counselor or the therapist. I'm going to play the role of an observer of of a, a counselor and a client dynamic. And you just figured out the third role. You are going to play the role of a client.
00:34:57
Speaker
yeah And, and what happens in that room stays in that room. That's, that's the, the goal here is, is to bring real instances of lived experience to bear big questions, things you're wrestling. Now there are tears involved. There's, there's a very real moment. is of It is raw. Yeah. It is,
00:35:18
Speaker
um you still have the autonomy to choose to what degree. But when when you're doing this, ah everything, every thread that you possibly could be pulling on usually points to some version of depth of what you're dealing with. I'm i'm dealing with the fact that I'm scared of dropping a ball. Mm-hmm.
00:35:37
Speaker
And all the people relying on me being impacted that in a way that now I have to watch them suffer. Like it's like, and and how did we get there?
00:35:48
Speaker
Oh, we cut a tree down in our, in our backyard last, last week. And I'm, I'm, I'm sad about that. Oh, why are like, it represents loss of exposure. Like all these different things might come up.
00:35:59
Speaker
Sure. But what's offered in that room is offered there because we are all committed to doing better. And doing better also means to doing less harm with people in their very real lived experience when we go back into the professional space. And so the commitment there in that room is everything stays in that room.
00:36:21
Speaker
yeah so So I'm down there all of last week um and Thursday night, ah the the last night before the final day, i get invited out to a social event and ah by by an individual that I had started developing a relationship with. And and so I go out there and we have ah we're having a conversation. We're continuing to explore topics of death. What what do we believe? What depth, I should say, topics of depth. um What do we believe? what what What do we think about the world? And we're exploring and getting to know and socializing. And and about an hour in i i get and I discover that there is, i am being evangelized.
00:37:06
Speaker
ah The nature of the conversations that are that are happening um and the questions and the perspectives and and how it is being shared back, there are certain statements that are starting to come out that, oh, i i am ah i'm being shared the truth.
00:37:25
Speaker
I'm being shared the word, like all the things. And I'm amused at this point. I'm, I am, I'm actually just, a I'm, I'm tickled actually to some degree that something that I was raised in that I'm very familiar with and yeah and all the trappings of that. It's happening to me. It's, it's happening. And I'm, I'm. You didn't see it coming. There was no preamble to, Hey, let's talk about yeah good book or anything. I mean, i mean i i I didn't know that it was going to to switch to that level of kind of trying to convince and persuade. yeah um i knew we were exploring these topics, but but I've been involved in lots of those conversations where it's fun to talk about the cosmologies and and all ah some fairly heady topics. right
00:38:05
Speaker
It's not for everybody. But in this case, um yeah, this is this is fun. And I i have eschewed those conversations a lot more recently because you know it's it's it's almost a little bit of horse trading for me.
00:38:18
Speaker
But um I'm amused until I'm not. What was the tipping point? When I wasn't biting, when I wasn't being sold, the stakes got raised.
Ethical Implications and Personal Growth
00:38:27
Speaker
And the stakes got raised when what I shared in that chair, in that room, where it's all confidential, started being brought up.
00:38:34
Speaker
And I experienced... Something I've never experienced in my life. When my daughter was injured, I faced that head on. Sure. I fought. I fought. I was only able to describe this after i kind of got out of the situation, but I experienced flight for the first time.
00:38:52
Speaker
Instead of fight. First time in your life. The first time of note. Yeah. Okay. And, and so i in, in the matter of a a quick, as quickly as I could, I i removed myself myself from that situation.
00:39:06
Speaker
I was disengaged. I was polite. i saved face. Okay. And I didn't realize the degree of how it had impacted me until I got out to my car where the pieces that I had shared that are some of my most vulnerable pieces yeah um were used for somebody else's agenda. The the the privileged access to parts of me that had that should have stayed privileged were now used as a means to to convince me of somebody else's solution for me. Yeah.
00:39:36
Speaker
I disappeared. I disappeared. And over the course of the next few hours, as I processed that and dealt with things that I could not have imagined would come up from this simple event, right, was also gratitude. Yeah. That was a surprising one. I could have guessed the other ones. Yeah.
00:39:53
Speaker
Anger, betrayal, sabotage. All of them. I'm sure. but gratitude. How did you get from these others, if you're comfortable talking about the gratitude? When I started thinking about what i what action I need to take from this and how I go. Can I stop you right there? Yeah.
00:40:07
Speaker
Action need to take for your self-preservation or to continue to have a relationship with another person or like what what are we going with? All of those. Okay. All of those. But I'll also talk about the one confounding Pat pieces is that as a professional in this space that's governed by a code of ethics.
00:40:23
Speaker
Yeah. is Is that there are certain instances where we have a duty to report and and where there is a violation of the ah of of ethics. like this is a this Where there is a violation of ethics, where there is a violation of the therapeutic alliance and the bonds and the confidentiality that that that those exist in. there there can be a duty to report. And so I'm weighing also, you know, all like yeah the nature of the relationship that I have, not only with this individual, but with this individual who has relationships with other people that I'm connected to in the, and
00:40:57
Speaker
And what that means that if I report this, what that means for my relationships, my reputation for all of these different pieces, what does that mean for impact to this person, him, this this person themselves and what, what's the fallout for them? Do I do, is that too severe? Is that too, and I'm laying out like, how do I, how do I navigate this?
00:41:19
Speaker
There has been a violation there. There's, it is a, there's clear in my mind, wrongdoing. And yet the collateral damage or the fallout that it could occur could occur from this. Do I want to carry that? Do I think it's appropriate? Do I, what I am doing and the ways I'm talking about this gave me also a glimpse. I'm a father of, of three daughters yeah and everything that I'm running through in my head for how,
00:41:45
Speaker
I navigate this whether I report or not. Yeah. Sounds very similar to conversations I've had with women on whether or not they report. And I need to be very clear here. I know it is a glimpse. It has what what I feel the harm that was done to me.
00:42:02
Speaker
i am not comparing to to sexual assault. okay and't we yeah But the feelings that came up inside of me, the sense of betrayal, the sense of violation, the sense of a part of myself that I had offered in good faith, being profaned, something I held sacred, being weaponized against me, it broke me down. And and and this is where the gratitude comes in. I have always been an advocate as a father of daughters, but I was only as a agent on behalf of others who experience something like this.
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah. And I got to experience it for myself. Wow. How can I not be grateful, particularly when I'm working with people who have experienced this, an embodied experience. Yeah. Who have felt these things in their body 10 times what I felt them.
00:42:54
Speaker
How can I not be grateful? or being bound to them in an empathetic way that allows me to see the the very real, to feel, to know that harm that they've experienced in a way that doesn't actually say, well, let me fight and protect you. Instead, it allows me to say, i grieve with you. Wow. And I think that's what I'm holding. I'm holding that paradox of being grateful for what has happened to me at the same time of questioning what's the accountability that's necessary here? yeah What's the action that I have to take? What is the additional involvement that I need to sign myself up for despite the fact that
00:43:38
Speaker
That I would much rather just put this in the past as quickly as possible and just get back to some semblance of of normalcy within myself. yeah And that I also, because I believe in the spirit of what we're doing, because I believe that the ethics hold a a picture of what we need to be together.
00:44:00
Speaker
This isn't just about me. The reason I use this example, going back to your question of how do I draw the line between yeah getting involved and being part of solving the solution and remaining the witness is first to come to grips with the fact that there is no perfect solution out there to get out of this. yeah That contextually, all of these things are going to be different.
00:44:23
Speaker
And there is no black and white answer for this. and And the reason I say that first is because that's oftentimes how I have showed up when I am presenting a solution to a problem is this is the answer. This is the answer.
00:44:38
Speaker
And then all everything that I go into is focused on convincing and persuading others to to choose that. My job then is to bring people along without regard for what their perspective is. I'll hear them out. sure I'll consider it. But half of the time, if not more, I'm doing that so that I can apologetically figure out what my response to their objections is going to be to move them to what I already know is the right answer. conclusion has been made. That's right. yeah That's right. That's the first part. And the reason I bring up this example is because that's what was being done to me. yeah
00:45:16
Speaker
Somebody heard my pain, my suffering. Somebody heard what I had been holding. And rather than have the strength to sit with that, to commiserate with that,
00:45:28
Speaker
They had a solution. They had an answer. And their job was to fix me. And my first that that my next piece on that is to look in the mirror and recognize all of the ways I negotiate with myself to give myself the permission to invade others and turn them into a project or a problem to be solved rather than the human that's sitting in front of me.
00:45:51
Speaker
That's the first piece. That is a very, very difficult to acknowledge, but also be respectful of in the space of that conversation or ongoing conversation. you have any other thoughts around that far as how to have the patience in that moment?
00:46:06
Speaker
i I don't because I'm still processing the part of me that that one of the things I said, and I love the question, by the way. It's admittedly a very hard one though, because I think it gets to the root of how we can separate that dynamic of, oh, here's the answer. Just let's be done with this conversation. You need do this thing. Well, well that' i that's the first part for me is is that it's going back to what we talked about in terms of, I mean, using that metaphor of the Lord of the Flies is... When we have blood on our hands, the question is that are we going to convince ourselves that we're safest or safer just continuing to add to the layers of caked blood on our hands by just doing the same thing over and over and over again?
00:46:46
Speaker
Or are we going to have the courage to turn around and look in the mirror to look into what we did to see the collateral damage, to see the bodies lying around us that we were complicit in leaving bloodied, bruised, broken? Are we going to continue to convince ourselves that this is the way the world is? This is the rules of the world. As if the rules of the world sanction our choices, are we going to find the courage to say, I am absolutely terrified of looking in that mirror and I will look regardless.
00:47:22
Speaker
And if I'm struggling to do that, will I find those around me that will sit me with me while I do that? Yeah. And I think that's part of the really hard part. That's the manosphere part that I think is the most clear is, is that there's such a hunger for being seen for actually having those mirrors. The problem is, is that our mirrors are just so distorted by this social media picture that has been influenced by a world that is broken and chaotic. Yeah.
00:47:53
Speaker
That we believe that emulating those that have just found a way to harness some degree of the chaos equals maturity.
Conformity and Internal Conflict
00:48:01
Speaker
Because they drive a Lamborghini and they they wear the the Armani suits and they sleep around with whomever they like. And they brag about the number of notches on their belt, their body count. They're wildly successful. Why wouldn't I want to live like that? yeah Until you look at what the metrics of success mean. That's right.
00:48:17
Speaker
And what the cost is. that's right I think you missed one when you were talking about um wanting to be a part of that. I think there's also ah a strong yearning for being part of a group, society, a culture, and I think that also feeds into, oh, well, you're doing it.
00:48:36
Speaker
I want to get there. Oh, it's funny. I want to get there too. you This guy is who we're looking to, you um and you could disregard some of the carnage of that, but um that's where your community is set.
00:48:46
Speaker
You have a shared vision that becomes very, very easy. It also gets mutated in a hurry though. if It's not in line with what your true self wants or how you can come to terms with and have ease of the methods for getting there.
00:49:02
Speaker
And I think a lot of people abandon that because they're focused on the the goal. The end result is just like, oh no, everything else is going be great as long as I can get that thing. And that's a hard, those are hard conversations. And you talked about looking yourself in the mirror, but for me, it's those moments, ah the quiet moments um at the end of the day, and everything is kind of subsiding. And those questions come out loud and clear in that transition space between wake and sleep.
00:49:29
Speaker
And that's when it's unavoidable. And I think this is where self-medication and other things come into place about just quieting that voice. Because that voice is full of, it's all racket, there's nonsense.
00:49:40
Speaker
Uh, but it comes from you. And I think that people have to pay attention. to They don't want to sometimes, but they have to. Before you go on, I have a question for you. yeah loa You just brought up that one. You, I agree with you that that sense of community and belonging. Yeah. but What's the belief that why, why is that so important? What, what's what about that? And, and for you, yeah especially going back to what we talked about before that the, uh, the solitude of group trial projects versus those is like,
00:50:08
Speaker
what What is that? Where where where do you find or or what, what, where's that yearning or desire for within you for that belonging? Historically, and from a survival standpoint, you need culture, you need your group, you need your ah people have specific tasks, things. This is how you can thrive and succeed. and There's no way that one person can do it on their own.
00:50:28
Speaker
And I think that I have developed, so I acknowledge that, but I also think that I live in a time where I'm not responsible for doing all the things I need to survive, right? I could i could exchange i could change dollars for tasks or provision of food or whatever.
00:50:45
Speaker
Bargain trade. You got it, right? So it becomes easier for me to find some of the quietness. I think I'm more at peace when I'm away from that. um I think the conversation is is great, um but I think for me it becomes very overwhelming. I think that i'm I'm very much an introvert and anybody who has ever met me for more than three seconds would agree with that. So so that, I think I just recognize where where my tank gets full opposed to depletion of that.
00:51:13
Speaker
But I also think there's a dynamic of what I said earlier about the letting people down. So I think that for me, it's a protection stay isolated. i don't have to allow people to give a chance to let me down. um And so I kind of seek out that I will do these things because even if I have no idea what that entails or how to do it, we been a beautiful time where I could research all of those things and figure it out. And so for me, it's, it's very personal that way. And I joke about it a lot because it usually gets a chuckle, but, but i truth be told, i just think I have more at peace, isolated and, Yeah, it's not as though, as much as I joke about wanting to live on an island somewhere with nobody else around, like in my mind that would be fantastic.
00:51:56
Speaker
And then maybe 72 hours later I realize, oh no, this is a little short-sighted. And I think that the island that I currently live in right now is surrounded by beautiful relationships and other things. so I'm not really alone, but I don't seek out... Like if people talked about going to a party or Even a concert would be a lot for me just because of that.
00:52:18
Speaker
Although I did, the last concert I went to, I did go by myself. My daughter thought I was crazy. Like, ah you're going to go by yourself? And i said, no, there's going to be hundreds of people around me. I'm not going to be there alone.
00:52:28
Speaker
ah But I think that was a different context. Do you mind if I, if I ask some more probing questions for that? Yeah, we're here. So you and I, in a context of me being a student, you being a teacher struck up our relationship. What, and and you mentioned the conversations that that we have and and it's, what are you, what are you getting from our relationship?
00:52:53
Speaker
Yep. think I was really blessed you have had a really beautiful relationship with my best friend Alex, who has passed, we talked about that. um And I think that gave me a lot of comfort to know that no matter what happens in my life, I'm never going to have a better relationship than that one.
00:53:11
Speaker
And I was very fortunate to have it when I did. And so I think for me, the stakes are a little bit lower with respect to this give and take dynamic that I think people go into relationship seeking for. And so ah for me, if there's an opportunity to connect, which we did right away, that's a plus. I also enjoyed your knowledge of film and pop culture things. So I think that helped like, oh, these are my people.
00:53:35
Speaker
You were my people. Yeah. But I think there was also a dynamic of curiosity because I think the more we were engaging, like, oh, there's a lot more going on and, um, uh, behind you. And, um, and I was curious and I wanted to know more, Also, i was timing of this was curious because I was going through a thing at work, which I think you and i connected on probably past or anything else about be feeling like the absurdity of the environment and the situation. And you came in quickly. So, oh, yeah, that's how it works. I'm like, oh, all right, tell me more. And so I was i was intrigued. And then we struck up a different connection along the way.
00:54:11
Speaker
Yeah. I, um, can I give you my feedback on my, wyat why, why? If you must. Yeah. Um, and, and I, I don't think I'm going to have, like, this is one of those things where over intellectualizing why it is, you know, there's a connection, but I do think, you know, for, for me, there was a connection there. There was an aspect of some of the things we can say is like in terms of interests and in terms of life experience and perspective. And there was a lot of overlap there.
00:54:42
Speaker
But also at its at its core is is that um I liked you. um that There's the your presence, your um you know ah even to the point which we um use around this is it good morning woodworkers.
00:55:01
Speaker
yeah Everything about you, for some reason, um you know created there's some sort of a pull. There's something here that's worth exploring.
00:55:14
Speaker
and the And the reason why i didn't know this going into asking this question, but I do see that deep hunger in so many other people of just connecting yeah in a way that feels seen in a way that you and I have had conversations that that are vulnerable conversations. Sure. Yeah, we're recording this now, right but that's not something that I offer out. I just gave an example of or my some of my most vulnerable things being involved in a room that I would not bring those out. And ah didn't bring them out on here and those are reserved there. But you and I have had some of those conversations. right There's something about co-creating a space. Mm-hmm.
00:56:02
Speaker
Whether it is about my predomination towards introversion as well, and you might be a little bit to the left of that even further than me Guilty. um It's about still knowing that for whatever time we have here, yeah we do want i to be seen, to exchange ideas, yeah to submit and surrender to the possibility and the imagination of, I don't know enough about myself. Right.
00:56:30
Speaker
To even know what I want to become and that what's necessary is that that we bump into each other in productive ways, in ways that we have a chance to discover. I'm not as fully formed as I want to believe at any snapshot point of time. Yeah.
00:56:50
Speaker
throughout my life. and And that's the part that i I think, again, takes another level of courage, which is to risk.
Imagination and Societal Possibilities
00:56:58
Speaker
And I find what you just said at the beginning there is is that, I mean, it's almost that picture of those who have loved once are more likely to love again. like yeah, and And that breaks my heart when I start thinking about the nature of immaturity in men it is that these are individuals who haven't experienced what it actually means the group to feel love, to feel connection, to feel belonging.
00:57:26
Speaker
So how are they supposed to reach for the mature thing of actually risking if they've never experienced or tasted this thing in the first place? I want to add one more. Trust. I think the ability to have full trust in somebody else is just as important as those other things.
00:57:41
Speaker
And just knowing that I've got this crazy thing I need to tell somebody, you have 10 minutes or whatever? Like that is huge. Just having that outlet. But I think that... to what you're saying, to add all of those things together, you don't have any of those, a taste of those, a sense of how they work, the intimate understanding of knowing that that exists within you and the dynamic of the people in your groups. um You just don't have the skills to be able to reach level of maturity, get to the place where you can make logical decisions that are not short-sighted.
00:58:13
Speaker
that are for the longer arc of you and your community like just asking something that is not really yeah yeah we've talked about uh this i think in a different conversation that uh speaking of skills it would be akin to somebody saying um jeremy i will give you 100 billion dollars if you can go out and run a marathon tomorrow i'm like yeah well that's safe money on your end I don't have the skills and I'm going to own that. I could develop those skills. I could get to there, but oh my gosh, it's going to take some doing. Yeah.
00:58:44
Speaker
I could, it is an easy example here, right? I understand this, but I fear that the other things that we would need to acquire are things that are unknown. about, oh yeah, well, if I want to run a marathon, i just need to start running more and getting proper shoes and finding the drive that makes sense to do this thing. And a hundred billion dollars is probably a good motivator for me. so yeah So great. But it's like, oh, well, how, how can you trust somebody? Oh, what does that mean? um Having that dynamic of vulnerability.
00:59:12
Speaker
What? Oh no, I'm not, I'm not that person. Okay. You can be that person. No, i don't want to be the person. Okay. I think you might want to, it might serve you well. Yeah. I think you're wrong. Go piss off. Right. Or whatever. Yeah. Right. So it's just, these things are so foundational to how we can get to the place where you can create environment of safety and comfort and peace within you. So then that can go external and just like, Oh, I see that you're in need. How can I help?
00:59:38
Speaker
Like, let's talk about it. Um, let me, let me lend you this, this thing that I've, uh, this is a great book on this, thing let's talk about it after you've read it like that's lovely way of creating connection yeah i love to be a metaphor to death and i'm never going to pass up an opportunity to do that Who would we be now if we're going to turn that corner? Because we've already been there. Exactly. So I heard you as when when you mentioned the marathon and the carrot that's dangling of $100 billion, dollars ah as you described that, I heard a what what I feel like is such ah an illustrative view of that nature of immaturity immaturity.
01:00:18
Speaker
Oh. because The reward dynamic? No. oh That if you ask that of most most individuals, many individuals would say, absolutely, I'm going to do that. I will i will claw my way across the finish line for $100 billion. dollars I will put myself through whatever it takes in order to get across that line.
Defining Personal Success
01:00:40
Speaker
i will do...
01:00:41
Speaker
And the problem is not is not whether or not you can or cannot do it. It's do you have the appreciation for all of the conditions, all of the context around that? If I added the list to you is that you'll get $100 billion dollars and you said, I'll do it. You sign up for it and you do it. Oh, you find out you cross that finish line and you die.
01:01:06
Speaker
and And it's like, you're like, if I would have known that beforehand, sure I would have qualified. i would have slowed down in making that decision. And what I hear within that is the simplicity of immaturity, constantly saying like, the only thing that matters what?
01:01:26
Speaker
Status. The only thing that matters is if I'm driving the Lamborghini. The only thing that matters is this, this, this, and this. And what they fail to realize is that that there's so much, they are so much more than devolving themselves into just those things. That there are actual conditions that if they were aware of those conditions, then they would say, no, it's not worth it.
01:01:48
Speaker
And part of the accountability here that we're talking about with us as individuals is is that with Lord of the Flies and going out to that is as that there's a certain point when you reach the ability that and you have the experience to understand that living your life in a singular, domineering, winning or losing zero-sum way is immature. Right.
01:02:13
Speaker
The world is not that simple and you continuing to try and justify your behavior on this simple world that is mythical, does not exist, is immature best.
01:02:25
Speaker
best That's fair. And and so there's there's an exercise that I started doing. um It started out as a instruction to our second.
01:02:37
Speaker
And it started, I think over 10 years ago where there was some curiosity is one of the times when the lottery had climbed a pretty significant level. sure And we, we said, okay, let's, we use that.
01:02:51
Speaker
We pulled down like the last 20 years of drawing results. Oh yeah. Yeah. And we ran regression analysis over it. We did all kinds of things. It was, it was expansive and just showing, um, all the ways that we as humans try to structure out risk to understand what's going on. It was, it was, it was highly instructive as a math and decision making. And, yeah but for me personally, what it also involved was saying, if I won that,
01:03:24
Speaker
How would i spend it? Sure. This is a fun game. It it is And, and that exercise ended up expanding well beyond just this, this transactional moment of, of, of revealing kind of, you know, what I wanted to do, what I would do with my time. And over time, it got shaped more and more into what would I really do?
01:03:46
Speaker
When I got tired of of just self-indulgence or break or respite, whatever you want to call it, yeah what would I do that actually had meaning for me? The meaning is the big question That's right.
01:04:00
Speaker
What would I actually do that would leave a legacy that reflects who am am or who I want to be or who I'm becoming or whatever. And the me that this exercise started to reveal parts of me that i didn't I knew existed, but lacked clarity, brought it into focus. And this goes back to what we were talking about with the marathon is, what would you i think it's much more interesting to say, like what would you do with the $100 billion? Yeah.
01:04:29
Speaker
what What would you
Legacy and Personal Impact
01:04:31
Speaker
express? What would you bring to life in the world? What are the possibilities that currently you think are impossible are impossible that by having access to those funds make it possible?
01:04:43
Speaker
and And what started to happen for me was why am I waiting until the money is here to make that world come to life in the small?
01:04:54
Speaker
Yeah. if money gives me the ability to not care if somebody is, you know, flippant to me when I'm, when I'm the customer and I'm going through and getting my coffee, yeah if money is, is what alleviates me of that sense of being hooked by their behavior in a way that I respond in a way that is like, Yeah, this ah if I was making $17, $20, whatever it is now an hour. Yeah. And I was living paycheck to paycheck. Well, yeah, I would be surly potentially if I had just gotten a bill for $500 that I wasn't anticipating. bet. If money gives me the ability to see that, to extend that degree of of a viewpoint that cultivates some degree of compassion, and I want to, as an aside, the word compassion means with passion, yeah and passion means suffering, with suffering. If it gives me the ability to sit with there's what they are suffering, then
01:05:55
Speaker
regardless of how small it might be. Is that the kind of person I want to be? And if that's the case, then what's keeping me from choosing that every day? And and it's it's it is it is the lack of that self-examination.
01:06:09
Speaker
This tool was a means for me self-examining. And I think that's the part that going back to what we were talking about before is if you're not examining your choices, if you're not interacting with people that encourage yeah you and come alongside, not to coach you on how to do that, but to examine their choices, our choices together, right then I'm sorry if you you want to believe that you're strong based on how much you can lift off a bar, how much money you make, what you wear, what the number of followers are, yeah you don't know strength yet, not to the depth that actually is possible within you. And what you are subject to right now is the limit of your own imagination for actually what it means to submit and surrender to the possibility that you could be taught what what real strength looks like. Yeah. yeah
01:07:01
Speaker
I don't know where to go from there. I mean, you said it really well. There's a thousand things that are going through my mind, but I think that i don't want to be trite and acknowledge that the society we live in, because that will also date me, because I know that everybody says this once they've reached a level of physical age and maturity, not maturity, but physical. Like I've been here long enough to recognize how this thing plays out. But yeah, there's so many things that are just bombarding us twenty four seven and things like social media. like it just It puts those types of players on an elevated that level. And I think people are drawn to that.
01:07:38
Speaker
And um people are driven by followers. And that's that's a thing. And you can't dismiss it. um But I think you ask the question of why. Why is that important? It all comes back down to validation. you know, this this has meaning, this has purpose. I'm doing this thing and people connect with it.
01:07:55
Speaker
going to continue do this. Okay, great. Why? Do you not hear me? I already explained. Okay, but but why? So it becomes very hard. And I think just shaking that that lens that people are looking through for the society. we're living in, they predicated in a lot of greatness. We were talking about the fixing and the saving. So the legacy thing is, is an important question. And another meme going back on what I just said about social media. um I saw another meme about how could you tell if you had, if you were raised by a good, think it was dad specifically or something like that. And it was interesting because it ah went down to the path of saying, people the number of people that stop you on the side the road i knew your dad because he did this really cool thing or oh my gosh you're the uh so-and-so's dad uh he was amazing and he had this really funny story about this whatever or or whatever whatever and just these moments of where that one person impacted everybody else's lives and created an environment of not leaving a situation and making it worse but
01:09:03
Speaker
making it better. And that's not easily done. And it takes a very specific skill set. and And the dynamic, I think, ah between you and i ah going into an environment here where we're ordering coffees or whatever, um I'm very transactional. Oh, great.
01:09:19
Speaker
thanks so much have a great day off you go you are like hey this is really amazing where do these beans come from tell me everything about the process here did you know that's how do you say that like you really locking into drawing people in into this connection um and so Anyway, it could be something very small, but I think that dynamic of legacy doesn't change if it's for your children, if it's for the people in your sphere, if it's for people who you don't know and have no intention of ever seeing again. um That's a pretty huge legacy.
01:09:50
Speaker
And I think it starts to amplify and, or I'm sorry, multiply into um what that then does for the person that you interacted with. They're all huge legacy. When I think of that, that interest and curiosity was something that was modeled to me.
01:10:05
Speaker
And, and so it's a legacy that I get to continue with my own flavor, with my own spin on it and how I do it and how I go about doing it. I think oftentimes that word legacy has such a, has such a positive connotation to it. And I'm currently working for a Dean who hates that word.
01:10:23
Speaker
like Yeah. I, in that, because in that sphere, right? yeah It's like, oh, I want to do this. This is part of my legacy. It's like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That was the conversation. Yeah. it's and and And some of the other things that I think that we have reframed that word legacy with is, you know, what kind of an ancestor do I want to be? Okay. How do I want to be remembered? You know, the the movie, what was it? Cocoa? and and the the whole nature of the ofrenda and the pictures of those and how when they are forgotten um they start to disappear in that world and and and that they have a role here to play and and so much of what we're also learning more and more around intergenerational trauma and epigenetics and and historically what impacts us is so much more than this simplistic view of what I decide right now in this moment only belongs to me.
01:11:26
Speaker
yeah And I think that's the interesting, that's that that that interesting aspect of that word belonging that we talked about with community and connection. is is that it's another one of those that could flip both ways is this that you but possessively the but the things I own versus also what I am, how I, the parts of myself that I surrender to and and offer to others With no guarantee that they are going to honor them the way we want to, that they're going to hold them in the same regard that we do, that I may offer up parts of myself that are actually rejected.
01:12:00
Speaker
And yet it's not the outcome. It's not the rejection of those that is the meaning making. It's the fact that I chose to offer a piece of myself and and that we could be betrayed by that. Mm-hmm. And does that do we allow that then, the the the the betrayals? Do we allow the the pain? Do we allow the suffering? Do we allow the injuries upon us to then dictate how we're going to show up in this world?
Balancing Passions and Obligations
01:12:30
Speaker
And i think that starts to get into this picture of what is the legacy that we're going to to yield? Are we going to take those things, the fact that we risk and the things that we want to offer, the things that we're going to give to people without guarantee? Are we going to allow the guarantee to control us? Are we going to allow that I will... and the Going back to this documentary, there there's conversation with one of the individuals that he specifically said, I don't agree with this, but this is the way the world works. And that language of saying...
01:13:06
Speaker
You're you're you're you are divorcing yourself yeah yeah from the very things that you you inherently in your body know are wrong. You're saying, well, I'll sell that.
01:13:17
Speaker
it is it is It's such a picture also of this individual equating what women do to prostitution and not realizing the prostitution that he's doing him for himself sure and and i think that's the part of of like is the legacy that i'm going to lead one that profanes me yeah yes Or is it, go am I going hold that sacred?
01:13:42
Speaker
Not because it has impact yeah in the audience, right but because what i must do, what I must bring to life is because I trust that I may never see the fruits of this. But I am going to make an intentional decision that says, want to leave something good.
01:14:03
Speaker
And that something good that I leave is not transactional. It doesn't have a price tag that says, I will leave this good if yeah I'm saying that I must become the good. yeah yes And if that if if becoming the good actually results in me being put to death,
01:14:22
Speaker
my own death, the ultimate cost. That's right. Then I will do it because I know that that's where my whole self is found is in, is in expressing authentically, genuinely. Yeah. And, and that that's, it it has nothing to do with legacy is defined by what's outside of me. Yeah.
01:14:42
Speaker
It has to do with what's the legacy for me. Got a curious example of an interview I heard. This is maybe a tangent, so forgive me, but Deadmau5, who you might be familiar with, yeah EDM type of music, and I don't know if that's the correct, but that type of electronic music.
01:15:02
Speaker
I'm a big fan of his work. Yeah. and i think he has a huge following he's very successful in those metrics as far as the work that putting out to the world there will be a legacy for him given the nature of this thing is being recorded and that music will be recognized into perpetuity that's that's the thing the reason i bring this up now though in the context of authenticity is that i heard an interview with him recently in the last two years maybe uh where he was talking about well i was always interested in computers and i would do these things and I'd break them apart and then figure out what software is like all of this was really fascinating stuff for me not a software guy but um then he dabbled into producing music and getting into this and then he got into this dynamic of other artists that have been making this and so Moby and
01:15:51
Speaker
oak and fold and you know there's a bunch of other great yeah examples of this i mean though i mean i love that we started with naming those as kind of like the grandfathers of this space i don't didn't put grandfathers in but i think you're gonna take us there so please yes and and uh and and the the new ones that are kind of on the up and coming yeah um we also just wanted not our what what What we are in our age is saying that this was Moby, Oak and Fold, Daft Pong, daft for sure you know, like all of those that really have, I'm going to stop talking because i i would take this almost towards another picture yeah of standing on shoulders. And her yeah, so yeah, keep going. Can we definitely put a pin in this, but come back to it Yes. I could do this all day. Yes.
01:16:39
Speaker
The interesting part of this interview was after we got into biographical stuff and all that, he has concerts that he puts on around the globe if for tens of thousands of people.
01:16:52
Speaker
like These are big shows. And then he shared, like he dropped this bomb, he shared his Like, well, you know, I just, I recognize that there was value in this market share of the space. And so I kind of gravitated towards making that music because of that. I don't really like that style of music. I'm like, what? How are you able to have such great output as far as the product you're making and a huge following for something that's not authentically you. Like that was, I can't unpack that still. It also made me lose a lot of respect for him. i still like his work, but it's just like, why are you doing this? I've heard I've heard this in another venue which is um so as a Arsenal fan bur for professional soccer um there's a player his name's Ben White he also says the same thing he's like really I don't like I'm not a fan of it it's my job. And I think that's the part, right? That's amazing. it's Wow.
01:17:50
Speaker
Especially in these these areas where so much of, we talk about parasocial relationships where we are so close to those we see on stage or those we see on a screen or those we see on the field playing. There's ah there's an emotional connection in all of those categories. There is. You want to believe in the fact that they're able to do the thing that maybe you wanted to do. They're able to take it to the next level. ah There's a bunch of reasons why we're connected.
01:18:17
Speaker
Completely, completely. I also think that it it begs that question, which is there's actually probably what I feel um a deep sense of identification. um And and there's there's two things that potentially are going on here is is that the projection that I have onto Ben White of loving soccer the way I do and being able to do something I love. yeah What a lucky guy. And then I find out actually... Ben White is much more like me and the fact that this is a job. I might be really good at my job, but it's a job. It's not my passion.
01:18:53
Speaker
It's not the thing that actually makes me energize and what I feel I want to bring in regardless of what I'm getting paid. And what it sounds like also is is there's there's this point where it's like, we we especially in the Western world, we talk about, wouldn't it be great to get paid for doing what you love? Which is why we say like,
01:19:12
Speaker
You know, do what you love and never work a day in your life. yeah And, and that is for most people, that is BS. The number of people I talk to who have some, mean, some, is some of the most enjoyable conversations is you talk to someone and I'm surprised where I know them in a professional setting. And then I find out that they're, they're doing macrame on the side. And, and, um, it, it's just, it is, i enjoy that surprise. yeah And i think the I think for me, it's there's something, and this might be another conversation for us, is the nature of the arts and the nature of expression, particularly in a world that has predicated that on a a highly commercial model.
01:19:58
Speaker
Sure. And and that that he had to put food on the table. He just found out that there's an audience for for the the way that he could put food on the table that is massive. sure and And it does feel like some degree of a sense of betrayal when you find out. It's like, i've been I have identified and felt things with what you have produced That it it's shocking yeah to hear that you don't feel the same things. I want to believe that there is a deeper connection.
01:20:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And and and it's he basically pulled the the the curtain back and like, oh no, this was transactional for me. i'mset The question then is is that, and I think this goes to to what we're saying in terms of the outcome, what about that actually dilutes the experience for you or for me watching it It doesn't, but there's something within me that wants to convince me that it should.
01:20:57
Speaker
to me, I guess it feels like we're questioning the authenticity of that experience. yeah And so if somebody is able to achieve that level of accolades or financial success or admiration, but your heart's not into it's like, what is happening? like What is the thing you're really excited about? Why aren't you
Challenging Norms and Building Resilience
01:21:17
Speaker
just doing that? Yeah.
01:21:18
Speaker
But yeah, this is. This is the disconnect or the disappointment for me. Yeah. Yeah. I want you to be as excited about your work as I am. yeah That would be great. Yes. but Yes. I think that, I mean, to bring this a little bit back to even that documentary is that's, I see the same thing is, is that it's at no point do these individual influencers ask themselves, what is the authentic? What is the genuine you? In fact, it is reveals that actually,
01:21:48
Speaker
they know, they're aware that this is not actually who they want to be. yeah So so what allows them what allows them to even betray their stated values and principles, which is itself, what allows it it, it is an addiction to the status, to the money, to the belief that these things validate them because they don't trust and believe that their authentic selves will do the same. yeah And and that's that's the part for me that is, that's ah that's a big part of what I think it does require the courage to start to ask those questions of why is it these things have me hooked so much? Why why does why does the fear of the other, why does the fear
01:22:40
Speaker
of of not having enough All those questions for me is is about being scared of the other that's within you. It's being scared about you not being able to say I'm not enough. yeah and And that's, I mean, for me, when it comes to legacy, being able to hold space for others to explore that without judgment.
01:23:04
Speaker
Right, right. Asking those tough questions, being confronted with really hard answers at times and and sitting with them as they discover you're stronger than you thought you were. You can endure the starkness of of answers about yourself that you thought would make you crumble and find that maybe they do make you fall to pieces. Mm-hmm.
01:23:25
Speaker
Maybe they do make you fall apart, but being able to actually be there and hold the space for saying like, okay, let's, let's work on assembling the next stage. Not, not the one that is perfect or, or fully enlightened or it's, but let's assemble what needs to happen next and continue walking together. And, and I believe without needing to defend it, that's what men want. I think that's what what a lot, of but particularly at this point in time is is that there is an inherent belief that there are very few, if no spaces where I can do that without being absolutely lambasted and destroyed for it. Sure.
01:24:06
Speaker
And that part of the work for mature men to start creating that space where we can do that and inviting those who don't know how to do it. Come over here and discover, be surprised. We'll figure it out together. Just hold the imagination for the possibility that you are more than you think you are.
01:24:30
Speaker
Thank you for sitting with us in this conversation, for bringing your own story, your own questions, and your own hard-won wisdom to what we're building together.
Conclusion and Community Support
01:24:39
Speaker
If you want to keep this going, subscribe to Good Pain on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, where you can also leave us a review that helps others find their way to these conversations.
01:24:49
Speaker
And for weekly doses of conversations that go beyond quick fixes or surface level advice, subscribe to our Kindling newsletter at goodpainco.com. Good Pain is recorded in Colorado on Arapaho, Ute, and Cheyenne ancestral lands.
01:25:05
Speaker
And let's remember, we are not alone in this. Our struggle is not our shame. Whatever we are carrying today, we don't have to carry it alone. We will see you next time.