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021 - Healing Through Shared Experiences: Unpacking Trauma, Healing, and Growth with Kathleen Rowley
55 Plays10 months ago
Join Reggie D. Ford and guest Kathleen Rowley on a profound exploration of their transformative experiences at Onsite, a retreat focused on trauma and grief. Delving into their personal journeys, they highlight the power of shared experiences, preparation, and therapy in navigating deep-seated wounds. From psychodrama to EMDR therapy, they uncover the importance of emotional exploration and body awareness in achieving healing and emotional safety. Kathleen candidly discusses their struggles with codependency and the impact on relationships, emphasizing the need for growth and self-awareness. Together, they reflect on their healing journeys, finding solace in vulnerability and connection.
Highlights:
⭐️ Kathleen reminisces about childhood memories and the fulfillment found in nature.
⭐️ Reggie shares their life-changing experience at Onsite, despite initial uncertainty. ⭐️ Kathleen’s persistence leads to a scholarship for an Onsite retreat, marking a pivotal moment in their healing journey.
⭐️ Exploring the transformative power of psychodrama in trauma exploration and role-playing.
⭐️ Reggie finds empathy and understanding through psychodrama, breaking down barriers and fostering connection.
⭐️ Reflecting on the importance of understanding the past to move forward, Kathleen acknowledges personal growth.
⭐️ Reggie finds solace in EMDR therapy for processing childhood trauma and codependency.
⭐️ Kathleen bravely confronts codependency tendencies and struggles with feeling safe in relationships.
⭐️ Embracing body awareness and reframing the body as wise for better self-care and boundary setting.
⭐️ Kathleen shares their journey of healing from abuse and codependency within the evangelical church, navigating shame and spiritual development.
⭐️ Reggie finds peace and appreciation in sensory experiences in nature, advocating for presence and mindfulness.
⭐️ Kathleen expresses gratitude for supportive relationships and their superpower of empathy through vulnerability.
📲 Connect with Reggie
Instagram - https://instagram.com/reggiedford
Facebook - https://facebook.com/reggiedford
LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/reggiedford
Twitter - https://twitter.com/reggiedford
YouTube - https://youtube.com/@reggiedford
Website -https://reggiedford.com/
Book - https://amzn.to/487OqJD
Podcast - https://reggiedford.com/vulnerabilitymuscle
Podcast’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/vulnerabilitymuscle
📲Connect with Kathleen
FB - https://www.facebook.com/kathleen.rowley.505
IG - https://www.instagram.com/kathleenmrowley/
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Transcript
Introduction and Childhood Memories
00:00:00
Speaker
Something that I really admire about my parents is they were not big on technology. They were very like, get your ass ass outside and play something planetary. And so my favorite memories were always being outside. I was planetary. I was annoying my brothers. I was riding my bike. Welcome to Vulnerability Muscle, the empowering podcast, challenging norms and guiding you to find strength and power through vulnerability. I'm your host, Reggie D. Ford. In a world that often portrays vulnerability as a sign of weakness, I believe it is a source of tremendous strength and authenticity.
Podcast Themes and Kathleen's Introduction
00:00:36
Speaker
Through insightful conversations and thought provoking interviews, Vulnerability Muscle aims to redefine vulnerability and help listeners develop a new perspective on their own lives. Each episode of Vulnerability Muscle delves into a variety of topics such as mental health, social issues, and mindset shifts. We explore the power of vulnerability in healing,
00:00:57
Speaker
building resilience and promoting personal growth as well as fostering meaningful connections. This podcast provides practical tools and strategies to navigate life's challenges, overcome adversity and create more inclusive and just environments for all people. Kathleen, how are you doing? I'm doing good. How are you doing Reggie? I'm great. I'm great. ah Do me a favor and introduce yourself, ah however you want to introduce yourself to the people. Okay. um Well, I'm a mom. I'm a wife. I'm really passionate about mental health and theology. I'm a student. I'm also a teacher. um I teach preschool, so I have nine two-year-olds. um Yeah, crazy. Yeah, I'm a lot of things, but I'm also just a lifelong learner and someone who's
00:01:55
Speaker
ah forever curious about my own life and the lives of others. That's beautiful. I love that. And I cannot wait to get into more of who you are and and what you bring to this world. But first, I want to hop into some rapid response questions. So the first thing that comes to mind, you let me know, okay? Okay. What is one thing you do to relax when you're feeling stressed? Go outside. Go outside. Yes. No matter what the weather is. Because here in Texas, we have some crazy weather. And even if I'm outside in the snow or the freezing cold, I feel more connected to myself. um That's dope. I like that. What comes to mind when you hear the word vulnerability?
Vulnerability and Childhood Influence
00:02:46
Speaker
Courage, bravery. Yes. I like that too. Sounds also scary. All those things together. Nice. If at any moment, any point, any time you get scared or feel that this conversation is too much, I hope you let me know. And I hope that, uh, you feel comfortable with everything that you share. And if ever there's a point that you don't, please just let me know and we will, we will back out of that. Okay. All right. Last one. What is one of your favorite childhood memories? Um,
00:03:29
Speaker
So I grew up in a really, really beautiful area on the central coast of California, and we were outside a lot. but Something that I really admire about my parents is they were not big on technology. They were very like, get your ass outside and play something, climb a tree. And so my favorite memories were always being outside. I was climbing trees. I was annoying my brothers. I was riding my bike. Um. Yeah, I'm sensing a theme here. I think I like yeah i was just saying yes i was just going to say is being outside seems to to fulfill you in a way. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm so glad to be having this conversation because we met through a very life changing moment in my
Onsite Retreat Experiences
00:04:20
Speaker
life for sure. And I don't want to speak for you, but, um, it was fantastic. And that was at onsite through a retreat. Um,
00:04:31
Speaker
centered around trauma and grief and everything and it was uh, it was life-changing for me. How was it for you? Life-changing for sure. Yeah. I don't know if it's like this for you, but onsite is so hard to describe. It's like just so hard to pinpoint like what it is that we did there and the significance of it. Um, but yeah, it, I had been a fan of onsite like leading up to me going. um So I came like ready. yeah And it ended up being even better than my expectations. It was amazing.
00:05:15
Speaker
That's crazy because I had no idea what onsite was and it was probably a couple of weeks before our retreat that ah I got i got um approached by the director of the foundation who was like, we have these scholarships available and I and know you're on your healing journey. I think this would be great for you. And so I go to the website and I'm looking it up and it's like, The word that stood stood out to me was unstuck. Come here and feel unstuck or get unstuck. And at that period in time, I think it was late 2022. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I felt stuck. And so I was like, I was like, this is speaking directly to me. So let me figure this out and like get to California and do this. So I was and oh my God, am I so glad that I did. It was amazing.
00:06:09
Speaker
Yeah, i I forget how I heard about Onsite. It might have been through my therapist. um ah Yeah, I think it was through my therapist. He really appreciated their work. And I started listening to their podcast Living Centered. And um yeah, I would just was just learning a lot. And I was like, man, if I could ever go, but like I couldn't afford it. Um, so I called them one day and I was like, do you guys do like scholarships for something? And they're like, yeah, they're really hard to get, but let me put your name on a list. So, and then they emailed me, I think a year later. Wow. Yeah. About the trip. Um, that was open in San Diego. So.
00:06:54
Speaker
Wow, that's amazing. That's amazing. ah yeah you You, one, you self advocated and you picked up the phone and you called because you knew that it was something that you wanted, but so to pour it to be a whole year later, I'm sure you forgot all about that call. Yeah, yeah. at I was so, out I'll never forget the day that I got that email when um she emailed me and said that she has a spot for me. and I was like, oh my gosh. And it was like pretty soon. I think it was just like, like you said, like within a few weeks. So I like, oh yeah, Jake, you got the kids. See ya.
00:07:39
Speaker
It's one of those things that you definitely like you pause life like everything in life. You're like, I'm gonna I gotta do this for me.
Exploration of Therapeutic Methods
00:07:46
Speaker
And for people who are like listening to us and don't know what the hell we're talking about on site is curated, um therapeutic, retreat company, I don't know, they have they have retreats in Tennessee and then another location in outside of San Diego, California. And they they have a ton of very specialized therapists who work with ah groups and individuals and couples and team in like organizations and teams on healing different pain points in their lives. And so the program that we did was called Living Centered.
00:08:23
Speaker
And again, like the word that stuck out to me about that program was unstuck. I don't know if there was anything particular about Living Centered or the one we did that that stuck out to you or if you were just curious about going, but um that's a little bit about, you know, on-sites based in Tennessee, um but it's a it's a fantastic organization that has been life changing to us and so many other people. Yeah, and I think another thing to add with onsite when we're explaining it is what makes them different from just going to like normal normal therapy um is one year away from your family, your friends, they take your phone um and there's like an emergency number so you're like you're off
00:09:14
Speaker
you're off the grid, but you're, you also know that that you can be contacted as needed, which was important to me. Um, but then also they use experiential modalities, um, in their therapy practices. So Reggie and I did something called psychodrama, um, which I had never experienced before. And I think that was part of the magic of onsite. Honestly, um because it it gave me psychodrama is this way that you kind of explore your story and your and your trauma by doing I don't know really like role-playing and sometimes props and then the other people that you're with um it's hard to explain but
00:10:01
Speaker
I don't know, there's some sort of magic in it because it I left exactly like what you said, feeling so unstuck and more connected to myself. And then also just I felt belonging that I hadn't felt in i forever. It was amazing. Definitely. And and the psychodrama, you're bringing back all the terms now, it's experiential therapy and everything. up So yeah, psychodrama, it felt like Like you're you're you're the main character in this production, like you are, and the different people, it's group therapy. So the different people in the group are playing characters in your life, ah maybe your mom, your dad, your brother, your sister, whomever it is. and
00:10:47
Speaker
and primarily in your ah um immediate family, right? The family that you grew up with because of that impact on who we become as adults, who we become um in shaping our personality, the way that we respond to different things in our lives, and really working through some some difficult things. And I mean, like, it was it was I think the part that was really cool for me was just, you know, being able to pick somebody to be your inner child and and then pick somebody to to play whomever it may be. But the the the cool part about psychodrama, I thought that was that was really helpful for me was the role reversal.
00:11:32
Speaker
So like I'd be me and you'd be my mom and then like switch roles. And so I have to put myself in in your shoe, in my mom's shoes playing, talking to me or thinking from her perspective. And it just opens up a whole nother level of empathy and and understanding of of different perspectives. Yes. Yeah. And then I think also being able to, like, because it's a group, um being able to witness other people's stories and seeing how that relates to your own, it feels very connecting. Like, wow, where our stories are different, but we're also very similar. We have one common than I thought. um My group was all women.
00:12:21
Speaker
So, um, and you can look at it and be like, well, you guys would never hang out outside of onsite, but then we got to know each other and like how we really have a lot in common. Yeah. And I thought that that was really, um, impactful too. Yeah. That, and that's spoke to one of my, not fears, but kind of concerns going into onsite was that as a black man, I walked in there, there's no black any other black men, there's no black male therapist, there are no black therapists. And I'm just like, yeah what am I gonna get from this? Like what is the the ah point of relatability that's going to help me get my story out and be understood in the way that I feel it needs to be. And our therapists in our room, and there were three men in my room in the and and ah five women,
00:13:14
Speaker
ah she She spoke to her directly and was you know hoping that she could break through those barriers and get to the human level of it all. And I think that's the part that I really saw was you know after the first day, it wasn't about my story as a black man, it wasn't about this person's story as a white man or white woman or whatever it may be. It was like like we are people who have experienced life and with our group, just the harsh realities of life and the way that it impacts our brains
00:13:51
Speaker
and the way that we develop and the way that we respond to things is a human thing. it's ah it's it's you know It may be racism for me and it may be um bullying or whatever it may have been for you, but the way that our bodies and minds respond to that are going to be similar. And so it was addressing those aspects of the human experience, which I really appreciated.
Post-Retreat Insights and Personal Growth
00:14:14
Speaker
And it it did break through the barriers that I felt were you know a big concern for me. Yeah. and you I mean, I really brought it with me. Like, I feel like I, I carry that experience and what I learned, uh, with me every day. Like it just completely changed me. Yeah. Yeah. I can, like, it's, it's, it's wild. Like looking at people, uh, even, even like.
00:14:42
Speaker
One thing I say about this podcast is that I wanted to humanize the headline, right? So whether it be the the murderer, the rapist, the convicted, this, that, and that, like humanizing that headline. by telling the story of how that person became the person that we see in the headline. yeah And I think anytime I see people or hear people's stories or or see something that they've done or been through, it's like, damn like that. yeah we We got to go to the backstory because walking into Onsite and seeing y'all like one of the guys that were in there, I was like, he's a plant.
00:15:17
Speaker
I know he's a plant because he doesn't belong here and I don't know. But like I got to learn his story and really dig in and like, damn, like we we are we are all here to heal some deep wound that we've experienced and and, you know, can't truly judge a book. You can't judge a book by its cover at all. And that was that was really helpful in being able to see. Yeah, and it's also such an important life lesson to realizing that we have to um go back in order to go forward. We can't just expect to continue to grow and heal if we're not ready to um yeah talk about the way our upbringing or childhood, whatever,
00:16:08
Speaker
Um, or even adolescent stuff affects us now to this day. Definitely. What was some of your preparation and and I said preparation loosely, like what were some of the therapies and the things that you had done prior to going to onsite to make you feel like you were you know prepared for that experience? Yeah, I don't think I was prepared. Um, but. To answer your question, I had been in therapy for about two years, I think at that point. I'd been doing maintenance work um with my therapist and mainly just checking in if something was coming up. um But I was seeing him weekly, ah gosh, for six months to a year and then once a month.
00:17:01
Speaker
Um, we did EMDR, um, which was super helpful for me. Can you explain EMDR? Yeah, I could try to. Um, it is a therapeutic modality that uses, um, well, my therapist used, um, these little like things that you hold in your hand that vibrate, right, left, right, left, and he's the one that's doing it. And um i I think the science behind it has to do with right brain, left brain, and eye movement. And so there was this, I think it was a psychologist who had um trauma, and she was processing through
00:17:51
Speaker
as she was walking through the forest and she was looking at the different trees as she was walking and she realized after that she felt better. So she started doing all these tests to see, okay, well, what is behind this? And I think it's similar to, you know, if you ah go to bed at night and you're just like, something like really bothers you or you had a bad day or something and you wake up in the morning and you feel better, and kind of it has to do with like your brain and how it processes and runs sleep and all of that. um
00:18:22
Speaker
So the idea is um that you are kind of opening your memories like a filing cabinet. You're taking out certain ones in the safe container of like the therapeutic relationship and you're taking out certain ones and seeing what comes up while you're also holding these whatever vibrating things. anne And so your brain is doing right brain, left brain stuff. um And so there's something to it about, you know, and similar to psychodrama where you're processing your trauma now as an adult and with a therapist.
00:19:01
Speaker
um that is super, super healing. um I mean, that's my very dumbed down. know But it wasn't very helpful for me. I will say if, if anyone ever looks into doing it, I think it's really important that you have a really um good relationship with your therapist. yeahly You get really vulnerable and um there were times I was sitting in the, you know, on the therapy couch feeling like I was ten-year-old Kathleen and I felt very small and vulnerable and
00:19:36
Speaker
um It was really, really hard. And then you like leave and go to work. Okay, I don't know what to do now. It's hard to come back to reality. True, true. I've experienced EMDR as well. and And so it stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. And so it's like you said, it's activating the right and left sides of your brain. um It can be done in multiple different ways as you described like with the the buzzing the the vibrating things that you had um Mine were multiple like looking right to left right to left ah for a series um And then also tapping so tapping right left right left right left
00:20:22
Speaker
but that bilateral activation of of the brain really opens you up. Like I love how you said it, like opening up a file cabinet. And um I think it's something that even even EMDR, is something to build up to with the relationship with your therapist, because as you mentioned, like the the level of vulnerability and the b openness that you get to, um it can really take you back to places where you don't even know your mind can go. and And it can be frightening, it can be terrifying, um but it it is also like that. Going back and touching those places as an adult, as a more healed version of who you are, um allows you to then reprocess those things so that you can come out of it in a in a healthier way.
00:21:10
Speaker
And so like i think like for me there there are several core memories that i did emdr around. And i'm thinking like these things in the way that i think about these things in the way that they have impacted the way that i think about related things. are gonna be with me forever. I'm like you're not like, this is not going to change because I feel so strong about them. And I think the first memory that I processed, which was tough, it was around trust, it was around relationship with my parents, and I was like, this is this is not going to change. And within seven sessions of EMDR, it like things just changed. And I was like, wait.
00:21:53
Speaker
And I was like, I was like, wait a minute. No, like it can't be like that happened. Yeah. And it was crazy. And so like it's one it's a modality. I definitely love and lean on and I bring it into I bring it back to my therapy sessions every now and now and again, between just depending on what what I want to process and what what I feel would be helpful in the MDR is one of those things. Is there anything else that that you had done before that? Um, yeah, well, something that came up a lot, um, at onsite was really how, uh, codependent I was at the time. And so even getting to the mental space where I, like I joked about earlier, like, okay, Jake, you got the kids.
00:22:42
Speaker
um I think a year prior to that, I wouldn't have been able to do that. had I wouldn't have been just so worried about them, worried about him. That's something from my childhood is where i um I think I have always just put others' needs first. So um yeah, that working on that, I feel like it really like hit its peak at Onsite. um But it made it so the work that I had done going into it, I felt like I was ready to uncover some of the why behind me feeling that and just my ah tendency to um yeah be stretched too thin and care about others more than myself.
00:23:32
Speaker
Wow. Wow. I'm glad you brought up codependencies because that was a ah concept that when when I heard the term, I'm like, yeah, I know what that means. It it felt like to me, it was just clinginess, right? You're codependent. Yeah. other person But we did the exercise where all those like different phrases and words were on the ground. And you had to stand by the ones that you forgot about that. Yeah. I was like, can we just put them all on top of each other so I can see? But I want to I want to read some codependency tendencies that are much more than just being clingy to another person. And so this is just a quick Google search of codependent tendencies, difficulty articulating feelings, enabling behavior.
00:24:18
Speaker
The inability to be alone, a compelling need to control others, difficulty communicating in a relationship, enmeshed sense of self, emotional and physical abuse, emotional turmoil, control issues, people pleasing, underlying guilt. fearing abandonment, lack of boundaries, relationship stress, lack of trust. so So all of these things that really sound like, damn, that's like my whole personality. personality
00:24:50
Speaker
are codependency tendencies and they relate back to some root wound or multiple wounds from early childhood as we were developing. And now was that was that was so enlightening to me. It was hard coming back too. to to like regular life after on-site and seeing co-dependencies everywhere within myself and others. Was that hard for you? Yeah, and it was honestly pretty hard on my marriage because I came back very aware of the areas where I was co-dependent. And I say now that I'm a recovering co-dependent, I feel like I've gotten much better. um But my husband,
00:25:40
Speaker
was not aware of us being codependent. So he just felt our connection changing. And it scared him. um And so he's on his own journey and doing his own work. But that's kind of how this work. So sometimes it's like it you are changing in your um feeling and becoming more aware of the cycles in your life that are unhealthy. um And it makes the people around you who have always benefited from you being that way i usually nervous or even angry.
00:26:22
Speaker
Thankfully, in my case, my husband was just nervous about it and he talked a lot about it. um But yeah, there's so much to this whole healing thing where um it affects you relationally and even spiritually and just the way you parent, the way you show up in the world and it kind of feels um You kind of feel like a fish out of water, but like, oh wait, but I think I'm doing the right thing. I don't think this is supposed to be comfortable.
00:26:54
Speaker
Definitely. It reminds me of of something that I've heard about just like healing in general. It's hard to go back and step into those dark times or go back and revisit or read reprocess different things. But the difference between doing it now versus the trauma of it actually when it was happening is that we have that choice that we're doing. And so that choice is the empowerment that we have now compared to when whatever it was happened, happened. we didn't have We did not have a choice. We did not have power in those situations. And so being able to go back and do it now with power, feel like the I have the power to step in and knowing I can get out and and get to it at a different time. But it, like you said, like addressing those code appendices and one that stood out to me was like hyper independence, right? That's something.
00:27:51
Speaker
that I struggle with greatly. And um that was one that I'm like, this this has been a ah ah a strength of mine, you know, it's periods of time, but actually, you know, it has, it's tempered me from different, you know, ways of growing. And so and um looking at that and looking at why that was, was was huge for me. So, I'm curious if you're if you're willing and and able to share, what were some of the things that you wanted to address while you were at onsite? What what were some of the underlying root things that were heavy on you? I think I've always... No, I've never um felt safe.
00:28:48
Speaker
So like safe in the world, safe in my house, safe in my relationships, which is part of the reason why I believe I was so codependent. Because if I can be attuned to others' needs and take care of them, then it makes me feel safer and like I'm in k control and I Unfortunately, it was raised in a family where I there wasn't an adult that was attuned to me and I felt like I needed to be um attuned to there was I was the caretaker basically to um one of my family members and It felt like I needed to be attuned to their needs in order to keep myself safe and in some instances alive um So I got that message early on
00:29:37
Speaker
And that was something that I really wanted to break.
Emotional Awareness and Personal Identity
00:29:44
Speaker
And I It's interesting, because when I reflect on it now, I think that it should have brought me a lot of anxiety, feeling like I just was never safe. But for me, in my story, it always led to more of that grief mode, where I'm just depressed. I was depressed all the time. um And that feels something that's a part of my story and something that I don't want to say struggle with.
00:30:16
Speaker
and Cause that word just doesn't, it doesn't sound like it. I don't struggle with depression, if you know what I mean? It's part of my story. yeah And in some ways I feel like it's a strength. um But yeah, I was really, I went into onsite curious about that. And then like, why am I depressed when I feel like I have everything that I need right now? I have a healthy family, I've got a loving husband, I've got two wonderful children. You know what I mean? Like, why is it that this is still there? um Yeah, I went into onsite with like, questions. um And yeah, also just that desire to finally feel safe.
00:31:08
Speaker
Wow. Wow. I, when you say feel safe, the, the, the first thing I think about is like feeling safe in your own body. And I'm curious how like talking about that, I noticed a couple of sides, how, how that, like, where'd you feel that in your body? I always feel it in the upper part of my body. So when I feel unsafe, um, I start to hunch over. as a way I think of like protecting my heart. ye um Yeah, I feel it. Yeah, my chest, my shoulders, my throat. Something that I learned at Onsite, which was so powerful was the way that my voice changes in different situations. um So Mary, my guide at Onsite, she helped me a lot with that um because i I tend to make myself small.
00:32:05
Speaker
Um, even with my voice, um, when I just kind of want to go under the radar. Um, and so she would even notice like, she was talking to me and I would go like this. I was with my hand right here and she'd be like, put that hand out. yeah Um, like, take a face, be like bigger and you know, like, And yoga, I love the cactus pose. I'm like, I just want to go through the world like that with my shoulder back and my head up. I just want to have that confidence. But um yeah, gosh, there's a lot there especially.
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah, I ah that's something that I think onsite and the work that I've done has been so much of a awareness ah awareness around what's happening in my body. And so as I've like gotten through, you know, processing a lot of the head stuff that happened, like where my mind is going, I've noticed recently where like the anxiety that I feel today, it doesn't it's not necessarily here. I, it's not necessarily in my brain, but my body, my heart will start racing. And I'm like, why is this happening? And, and it won't be like, Oh, this deadline that that like, it's not that anymore. It used to be, it used to be like, Oh my God, I said something stupid on the podcast. And I'm thinking about that for three days.
00:33:36
Speaker
um or just like there's an upcoming speech or whatever it may be. Like it's not necessarily that, but my body, like the body keeps the score. My body's communicating to me something, something isn't right. And so I've been you know monitoring just you know blood pressure and heart rate and all these different, like how I sleep just to be more aware of what my body's trying to tell me. I think our bodies communicate so much wisdom, so much wisdom to us. And I'm glad like you have that awareness around just like covering your throat or or shrinking down like literally my left side of my body.
00:34:14
Speaker
is so tight. and And part of it was like I ah ruptured my Achilles on the right side. And so the left side had to compensate. But even before that, like there was there was tension all up through this left side. yeah And I think it's similar to what you said of ah protecting the heart. Like my heart's right here. yeah and if i can If I can brace and be ready for whatever it is, like that is that is something my body has learned over time. hard It's so hard but I like what you said and that's something that I'm continually like reminding myself of is that my body is wise. A lot of times I i think when we um have depression or anxiety or we talk about mental health, we feel like our body is working against us.
00:35:04
Speaker
you feel like trapped or like you said earlier, stuck in this body that is constantly having these different symptoms of, you know, whatever anxiety, depression. Um, but, and I know that there's, there's a lot to it, but I think if I choose to reframe that and view my body as wise and telling me something, um, then I can better care for it and care for myself and honor it and have more boundaries and use my voice more. um It gets really deep.
00:35:47
Speaker
And so I'm trying to continually tell myself, which is hard. I think as a woman and specifically a Christian woman to tell myself that my body is wise because I was raised in a way in the church where I was always taught that I'm pretty much here to serve others. um And so I, it became very natural for me to abandon myself and my thoughts and um even like not being aware of, you know, where I'm in pain um or my posture or how I show up in the world, like just not being aware of it, just the awareness and um just wasn't there. So yeah, just being in this phase of life now where I'm choosing to view ah this body as a gift and as wise feels really empowering.
00:36:44
Speaker
Wow. Wow. that It felt empowering with you saying that. And I think there's something to, uh, can you speak to being a Christian woman and how that has impacted your healing journey or impacted some of the things that you've experienced prior to your healing journey? Yeah. Gosh. Um,
00:37:13
Speaker
Yeah, I can speak to that. I'll speak to it in a place where I'm very much like still in the midst of figuring it all out. And I'm very comfortable, you know, knowing that I could be doing that until, you know, why did I? But I, gosh, I have talked about this need to feel safe. in my body, in my environment, in my home. First of all, something to know about me is that um I was raised in a, ah mainly it's like between the 80 and 85% Hispanic Latino um city.
00:38:02
Speaker
um And I was at a very small Catholic school, um preschool through eighth grade. and like very small. And the majority of my teachers were nuns. And um it's interesting because a lot of the safety that I felt would be um around Hispanics, around Catholics in church at math. um So very early on, I got a narrative that the church would be a safe place for me.
00:38:38
Speaker
um And I've always been, I think, just naturally wired to think spiritually. um I think I'm an empath. I'm highly sensitive. um So my brain just kind of goes that way anyways. um So I've always been kind of a seeker, is what I'm saying. um So the church had always felt safe for me. But when my parents split up, I wasn't really like encouraged to go and continue in Catholicism. And my friends kept inviting me to different churches. So I went and I almost became Mormon. um I would go to Buddhist temple. um And then someone invited me to like an evangelical church in the area. And I really liked it. That's where I met my husband. But um and I felt safe.
00:39:35
Speaker
there because there was so much black and white thinking um that it made me feel like I was in control. um And a lot of times how um like high control religion really thrives. um With that like black and white thinking and you've got to stay in this very, very small box and you got to have God in that very small box and you don't really ask questions or become curious. um And so really where things started changing for me because I was like you're very stereotypical like evangelical white Christian woman who was married to a pastor.
00:40:17
Speaker
Um, just like get married, uh, have kids, you know, doesn't matter if we have money or not. God's going to provide for us. We don't need to go to school. We don't need to go to college. Um, and yeah, then our marriage was in crisis. Um, my husband was just, he was at a mega church outside of Los Angeles. We both were, but he was one of the pastors and he was so burned out and he was so anxious, so depressed and. The way that it um affected me was that the church, whether this is true or not, it felt true. So to me it is true. The church blamed me for my husband's lack of faith or emotional struggle. um It all came back to me. Was your house clean? um How are the kids?
00:41:14
Speaker
um Are you missing dinner for him? Are you missing it? So he comes home from work and he's not stressed. And so I was so hurt because it felt like, wow, I'm just not enough for any space. I felt like I wasn't enough for my family growing up. I feel like I'm not enough for my husband. I feel like I'm not enough for the church. So it kind of led to this crisis. um Which led us to this ah very unhealthy, a very toxic counselor. um And that was the first time I think we
00:41:55
Speaker
I learned to use my voice and I said, I don't want anything to do with this guy um who's using things like scripture and the Bible and the church as a way to like ah make me feel smaller. And like, how would I explain it? Like to loid over me. um It just felt like I was getting worse and worse. So I lasted with him for like like a month. And then I found a therapist but um that we worked with for a few years. that, um yeah, ended up ah being such an important part of our healing journey, and my healing journey. But I think the way that the church and Christianity has affected me, well, first is
00:42:41
Speaker
um The only reason I say that I'm a Christian is because I love and follow Jesus. But I do not um identify with the charm evangelical anymore. um I don't like to call myself that. I think that the evangelical church, while there is a lot of good there and I don't want to throw you know all the good out, I think that it has led to a lot of oppression and abuse ah um and enabling of abuse. um
00:43:13
Speaker
And so it's not something that I want to be a part of. um But I still love and follow Jesus. And so it's hard to um kind of come to terms with, OK, well, I've been taught even to read the Bible a certain way from you know men who are white, who have translated it. um But then I still believe in in the teachings of Jesus. so um It's affected me in a way that I feel like Christianity breeds codependency. I feel like it's very normal to be codependent when you're a Christian woman. um It affected me in a way that I had never like considered going to college or that I had any role outside of my home. um And again, this isn't every Christian woman's experience, but this was mine.
00:44:07
Speaker
And also just the way that I viewed myself, I i constantly had this inner narrative of I'm a broken sinner, I'm a broken sinner. So tell that to someone who's already like chronically depressed. Like you just, it's not good. Shame, the shame. So much shame. So, um, Yeah, so there's there's that that I feel like I continually have to reframe and push against that I believe not that just
00:44:40
Speaker
um humanity is like all broken sinners. I think that we have good enough. And um I don't know how to reconcile that with like what scripture says, but I'm okay not having it all figured out. And then just also like um going into churches and seeing like, oh man, I do not see a single person of color here. This isn't the place for me. Or talking to people and it's like, do you have a friend, any friends, anyone that you know and love that's in the queer community?
00:45:11
Speaker
And a lot of times they don't because they they keep their world so small and their friend group so small. And it's that narrative of like everything on the outside is bad and wrong. i So I think it really started to hit me once the boys started growing. My boys are seven and nine. I'm like, how do I want them to be themselves in the world? You know, um I don't want them to, I have one that already is prone to shame. And I don't want him to go to church where he's you know thinking about him being a sinner. you know I have another son who's very like existential in his thinking. He's thinking about like good versus evil and where do we go when we die and why do good people do bad things. And I don't need him to go to a church that's talking about hell. like I just don't. So anyways, there's a lot there. and that's
00:46:10
Speaker
Way more than what you asked me no i'm sitting here soaking it up because it's been so good yeah that I'm just really passionate about I can tell, I can tell. and And it sounds like you've done a lot of self-reflection around it and really analyzing how it, the role that it plays in your life. And I love the fact that you, you, you still, uh, talk about your love for Jesus while having these, these questions and these different use that you have now. And I think one of the things about my healing journey that I've learned is that
00:46:48
Speaker
the black and white thinking, the generalizing, all of that is is very harmful.
Healing Perspectives and Nature Connection
00:46:55
Speaker
But it was it was there to serve us at one point, right? If we look at a group of people and say that, you know, because I was hurt by two or three of those type of people, all of those people are like that. Or because this situation turned out like this, all these situations are gonna turn out bad the same way. And that is is not the reality. And healing gets you to a point of recognizing that gray, that there is gray in every single thing. And so, oh man, like, thank you for sharing that. That is, that is, that is healing to to hear. Like it really is. So. Yeah, it just, it it could be both ends.
00:47:34
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Both and exists through everything. Like absolutely everything. So, uh, I'm curious cause you, you, you spoke so much about it when you go outside, when you go into nature, right? What do you feel? What do you sense? What do you look at? What do you hear? What is something that you pick up on? Okay. So to be honest, um, because I grew up in such a pretty area, um, a lot of times when I go outside here in Texas, I'm like, why did I move here? What am I doing? I need the ocean. I need a mountain. But um, so there's that. But the more positive part of it is like, I am just such a sensory, like, sensory person. I don't know how to say that. But
00:48:32
Speaker
I smell the flowers, the grass, like I just, I hear everything. I like listening to the birds. I know we've talked before of like, I'm just gonna like stop and look at this flower for a second. You know, I don't need to rush past it. And that's one of the things that I love about I work with children and I have two of my own is that they're just like never rushing through life. like you take a three-year-old on a walk and they are stopping and they are looking at the roly-poly for like five minutes, you know? It takes you forever to get somewhere. Fascinated about it. Yes. And there's something where it's like, oh man, that's hard sometimes, but then it's also like, wow, okay, let's, let's sit here and look at the roly-poly and talk about it. There's so much beauty in that. Yes. Yeah. Um, and I love that. So it's just a way of me like feeling like I can,
00:49:29
Speaker
I don't know, when I'm outside, I feel like I could be more present. Yeah, I think the same for me, being connected to nature and in just the physical sensations that come to to my body, just and like recognizing those, like what am I, and and and trying to, not that you can, but like trying not to let the emotional and the feelings be the loudest part, but like let these birds be the loudest thing that I hear right now. And let this breeze be the most thing the the greatest feel that I feel right now. Exactly. So that's kind of the tension that you're
00:50:08
Speaker
that I just said with like, Oh, I'm, I'm outside, man. I wish I was in California. no i not Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it comes back to centering myself and like, Oh wow, what a pretty day. Oh wow. That flower's blooming. It wasn't a few days ago. yeah um Things like that, that are important right now. And that helped me regulate my nervous system. Um, and all of that, it kind of just silences the negativity yeah that naturally comes up. Definitely. Yeah, that's being present. And I think that's where the the true peace lies in being present. um I want to challenge listeners. If you're listening to this and you're an adult, find a roly poly.
00:50:54
Speaker
yeah Find a caterpillar. like I haven't seen a caterpillar in years because I'm not on the ground, not looking, I'm not slowing down enough to see those. and so Find a roly poly, find a caterpillar, send me a picture of it. I want to see a picture of a roly poly. I want to wrap this up with a couple more rapid response questions that are a little bit deeper, so right but I think you're you're ready for them. With all the things that you're doing right now in any aspect of life, what do you need help with? I need help remaining attuned to my needs. um Basic needs. Kathleen, have you had water today?
00:51:50
Speaker
Have you gone outside? Have you moved your body? Have you done some yoga? Like just those basic things. Um, I need, I need help. Um,
00:52:07
Speaker
Remembering myself, but specifically like I need to freaking drink more water. Yeah. As a friend, I will, I will, I hear that. And I think one of those people that are asking those questions, definitely. What is your biggest fear?
00:52:35
Speaker
Something happening to someone I love and it being my fault.
00:52:44
Speaker
um
00:52:48
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't even know if I can go deeper into that, but I know that that's what that is because if I see that in a show or a movie, I spiral. I just, I, I quickly go into a panic attack, which is not normal for me. Um, so yeah, something bad happening in it being my fault. Yeah. Um, I see it in like day-to-day stuff where I'm like, I have to constantly make sure, almost like OCD stuff, constantly make sure that everything is off in the house. I'll leave, then come back and double check again. um Because I'm so afraid, not just of something bad happening or like a house being lit on fire, but that it would be because of me. And I think it's because I think deep down, I wonder if I'm really a good person or if I deserve good things. Wow.
00:53:40
Speaker
I'm processing that with you right now because I haven't really gone too deep into that, but I know that that's something that I'm very afraid of. Damn. That's deep. Let me tell you, you're a fantastic person. You're a great person, a great human. I'm so blessed to have you in my life. I received that and ditto.
00:54:09
Speaker
What is one of your superpowers?
Empathy and Personal Reflections
00:54:14
Speaker
Oh, gosh. I think empathy. yeah You think so? Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter what I think, but yeah. Yeah. They know me pretty well. Yeah. Oh, that's dope. That's dope. Yes. Empathy. Yes. And then last question, what are you living for? However you want to answer that. Sunshine. o Sunshine. Yes. Sunshine. Yeah. And that you know,
00:54:54
Speaker
I have people in my life that are just like pure sunshine that I just want to be around. Um, you are one of them Reggie. you are online Um, so it's more to me than like being outside and the sun is shining. Like there's something there cause I know I'm, I struggle with depression and now we're not, it's not so cold here in Texas. We're not second side. Um, There's a lot there, but also just like those moments, those glimmers, I just view it as like just sunshining on things that were um asleep in in and out and are now awake. um Yeah, I have, I'm really blessed that I have people in my life that feel like that. That's the only way I know how to describe them is like, wow, you are just sunshine. he yeah has yeah We yeah, I have a neighbor
00:55:50
Speaker
um who's become a near and dear friend. And last yeah two years ago, I think when I met her, she had just lost her husband, she's our age. um And she has a six year old. And I met them just when they were in the thick of it, in the thick of grief. And they are sunshine I always call her son, actually you are sunshine, you are my sunshine boy. um um
00:56:21
Speaker
And yeah, just being around people like that and um even moments where it just feels like that, I think you know what I'm trying to say. That's what I'm living for. It makes all the other things just kind of melt away and you remember what's important.
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:56:37
Speaker
I think with your superpower of empathy and who you are, you are sunshine for a lot of people. And so you're living for what you are, which is so dope. And I'm just, I'm thankful for you. And I want to say I'm thankful for Onsite too.
00:56:54
Speaker
boy the experience, the healing that we that we had, but also for connecting this amazing people. I mean, we we had a ah reunion with some of our folks and it was it was so life-giving. And yeah I'm just so blessed to have you and and all y'all in my life. And so thank you, Onsite. Thank you, Kathleen, for blessing me with this conversation, with all the things that you could be doing and all the places that you could be. I appreciate you being here with me, embracing vulnerability. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. And before I forget, how can people reach you if they want to connect or if you want them to, you don't like, you can say that. I mean, people, people can connect with me.
00:57:46
Speaker
ah Like, I don't know what that means, but sure. I'm a friendly person.
00:57:52
Speaker
um Yeah, my Instagram handle is Kathleen M. Rollie. It will probably be in the show notes, right? Definitely. yeah Yeah. So that's my Instagram. I think my Facebook is the same. um Yeah. And that's probably the easiest way to get a hold of me. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Kathleen. I appreciate your time. I appreciate you. Thank you for joining us for another powerful episode of Vulnerability Muscle. I hope you found inspiration and valuable insights that resonate with you. If you're enjoying this journey of self-discovery and empowerment, there are a few ways you can support the podcast. First, make sure to hit that subscribe button so that you never miss an episode. If you've been moved by our conversations and the mission of redefining vulnerability, please consider leaving a review. Your feedback not only motivates us, but also helps others discover the podcast.
00:58:48
Speaker
Share your thoughts on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you tune in. And don't forget to spread the word. Follow us on Instagram at Vulnerability Muscle for updates. And you can connect me personally at Reggie D Ford on all platforms. Visit VulnerabilityMuscle.com for additional resources and upcoming episodes. And remember, embracing vulnerability is strength. Thanks for being a part of the journey. Until next time, stay empowered, stay vulnerable, and keep flexing that vulnerability muscle.