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With Richard Shumack
90 Plays2 years ago
If you have friends, colleagues or neighbours from Muslim backgrounds, this episode is for you! There are incredible opportunities in our own diverse society to interact with followers of Islam. What are some of the best ways to introduce them to Jesus? Andy and Kristi have a guest from Australia with some helpful advice.
Richard Shumack is a philosopher of religion who is fascinated by how and why people hold their religious beliefs. He is the Director of the Arthur Jeffery Centre for the Study of Islam, at Melbourne School of Theology and, with his wife Judy, is on the pastoral team at Springwood Presbyterian Church in the NSW Blue Mountains. His research specialty is certainty and doubt in religious belief, and he is the author of “Jesus Through Muslim Eyes”, and the philosophical apologetic “The Wisdom of Islam and the Foolishness of Christianity”. He loves Australian football, golf, eating curries, and making and playing acoustic guitars.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Announcement
00:00:10
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another exciting episode of pep talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Andy Bannister from Solas and I'm joined as ever by my intrepid co-host, Kristy Vare from Oak Hill Theological College in London. Kristy, how are you doing today? Doing well, thank you. All the better actually for being called intrepid. Thank you. Is that because I'm moving how soon?
00:00:33
Speaker
I think that's right, last time we did a show, you were all ready to move house into some, you know, sort of those palatial houses they give lecturers at theological colleges, right? You're gonna say that, yeah, absolutely. Next Wednesday's the day, can't wait. I'm doing well, but I'm really excited about our guest today, Andy. Who is
Richard's Role at Arthur Jeffery Center
00:00:50
Speaker
he? Who is he? Well, we are joined, literally from the other side of the world. We scare the planet to find new guests on this podcast. We are joined all the way from Australia by Richard Schumacher. Richard, welcome to PepTalk.
00:01:04
Speaker
Hi, Andy. Very, very good to be with you. Hi, Christie, too. Richard, you are among many other kind of things. We may talk about some of this as we go. You are the director of the Arthur Jeffery Center for the Study of Islam at Melbourne School of Theology down in Australia. That is quite a mouthful. What does that entail and how did you end up getting involved in engaging with Muslims?
00:01:34
Speaker
Well, the centre itself, in a nutshell, what we do there is we really just help Christians engage with Islam, both sort of socially and politically as a religion, but also, and I think more importantly,
Living in a Muslim Community
00:01:50
Speaker
just as being able to be good neighbors to Muslims and being able to share Christian faith with their Muslims, be able to talk about Jesus with their Muslim friends, neighbors, workplaces. That's the heart of what we're on about. How I ended up there was, that's sort of by accident really, I just sort of happened
00:02:13
Speaker
to end up living and working in a community that was massively majority Muslim community in Australia and Melbourne, mainly from the Horn of Africa. So we're talking Somali, Ethiopian, Eritrean communities.
How to Approach Conversations with Muslims
00:02:30
Speaker
And I just realized that
00:02:33
Speaker
certainly I as a fairly young Christian was not at all equipped to be able to have good conversations with the friends I was making there. And I just sort of that set me on a road to trying to work out how to do it better, how to understand him was in thought and understand particularly what how they thought about religion and faith, how to have discussions that actually connected instead of just passing ships in the night.
00:02:58
Speaker
I kept trying to read books. None of them answered the questions that I was asking. And then that sort of led me eventually into more study because I thought, oh, I'm going to have to work it out myself. And that took me to studying under Muslims. I did my
00:03:15
Speaker
PhD research with Muslim supervisors and Muslim colleagues and was marked by Muslims. And so I've been a very Muslim community. So it really forced me to encounter Islam at great depth and really wrap my head around how Muslims thought and particularly how they came to their beliefs and then how they reflected on their beliefs or didn't, how they practiced their faith. So that was the journey and that ended up with me now teaching about that.
00:03:42
Speaker
Well, Richard, I'm so glad that you're with us for many reasons. But one of them is that I don't have much experience really in talking with Muslim friends or neighbors.
Muslims Facing Abuse and Isolation
00:03:53
Speaker
And so kind of thinking about this whole area can feel a little bit intimidating. What kind of advice would you give to someone like me who, you know, kind of will talk to people on the street every now and again?
00:04:06
Speaker
you know, maybe just in my everyday interactions in supermarkets or perhaps with like neighbors or some friends from work. What are some of those conversations that you mentioned that connect? Like what are the issues that come up? How can we go about moving into some of those conversations for those of us who don't have much experience and just think, oh, this just feels enormous. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a lot of things to say, but probably the first and most important thing to say is that
00:04:35
Speaker
Muslims are people too. Particularly for Christians, I think we sort of put Muslims in a special case. So there are, you might have believers and then seekers and then unbelievers and then somewhere else you've got Muslims.
Engaging Muslims in God Discussions
00:04:52
Speaker
They're a super hard case. They're particularly different. I mean, conservative communities, they'll often look very different.
00:05:03
Speaker
women can wear clothes that just by their very nature seem designed to isolate you or separate you out. So that's a tricky thing to start. But behind, I promise you that behind the veils, Muslims, ordinary people, wrestling with all the same questions, they're worried about their family and their kids getting into drugs and they're worried about whether God really loves them.
00:05:24
Speaker
So that's the first thing to say is they're already ordinary. Probably the second thing to say too is that in most Western communities, Muslims will experience some sort of
00:05:36
Speaker
abuse, whether it's particularly verbal abuse or social abuse, particularly for your woman who, again, if you're dressed, identify as a Muslim, that you will experience some sort of thing like that. And anyone who just smiles and says hello is a massive step forward. And another thing too is most Muslims are from communities that are very social, very
00:05:59
Speaker
communal, very family-oriented. They love being invited into homes. They love talking. They're not all scared to talk about God. And so, ironically, Muslims are probably the easiest people you'll ever find to talk about God with.
Building Relationships with Muslims
00:06:14
Speaker
God's
00:06:15
Speaker
in their consciousness all the time. The passage I keep thinking of when I think about Muslims is Romans chapter 9 where it talks about Jews there, or passionate Jews, but very similar to Muslims. It talks about how they're zealous for God,
00:06:34
Speaker
And His righteousness, they want to be right with God, and they want to live right lives and know that they are right with God eternally. I have a great passion for that. So they're very easy to talk about that with. In fact, they're surprised that Christians don't talk to them about it.
00:06:54
Speaker
So very, I mean, again, just sort of falling on from that, Richard, it's a very practically very sort of, you know, engaging on Muslim Friend 101. So let's imagine, you know, somebody listening to this has got perhaps, you know, Muslim neighbors, perhaps they've got Muslim colleagues at work.
00:07:10
Speaker
Perhaps there are other Muslims at the school gate. Are there some just very practical tips from your experience engaging a Muslim? Just to start, you just knock on the door and say, hello, do you leave out and say, hey, I'm a Christian, do you invite your Muslim friends to coffee or lunch? What would be some very, very practical ways to perhaps start building some bridges for people who would love to do it, but just literally don't know what the first step should be?
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the first thing to do is just, like I said before, smile, say hello, offer them to go for coffee. Food always works. I think that food always works everywhere, but certainly it works in most Muslim contexts. And then just pray that the God would open opportunities and see where it goes. And probably one really helpful tip I think is if you
00:08:00
Speaker
If a listener has sort of thought already about, hey, I've got Muslim friends and I'd like to talk to them. One of the worst things you can do, ironically, is go and look at all the apologetics debates on YouTube. Very intimidating, lots of theology, lots of Islamic and Christian theology. If you're not a debater,
00:08:25
Speaker
particularly if you're a Muslim, you actually don't know very much theology. Islam is a very, very practical religion. There are five things you're supposed to do. You say your prayers, you give money, you go on pilgrimage, you make a confession. And beyond that, you're just trying to keep the rules and be good. Most Muslims don't understand Islamic theology in any depth. Most of them don't really understand the Quran. So I guess one really helpful tip is don't ask them theological questions.
00:08:55
Speaker
Ask practical questions like, do you pray? What do you pray about? Do you think God answers your prayers? Do you go to the mosque? What's your experience of the mosque? Do you feel close to God in the mosque? And especially, do you have confidence that
00:09:16
Speaker
God loves you, that you're forgiven, that your sins are dealt with. Those sort of very, I'll use one slightly big word, like existential questions, very real personal questions. Ask people for their personal testimony of faith and their experience of being a Muslim. And I promise you that will then lead to you being able to share your story. And
Sharing Personal Stories over Theology
00:09:39
Speaker
I think that's the best place to start.
00:09:41
Speaker
I think that increases my confidence so much because that's exactly what you were saying earlier, like treat people like human beings and asking those kind of low level, but really important questions can just generate such a great conversation. Do you have any kind of stories where that's happened for you? Like what does it look like to then build on some of those conversations? Like what would their perception of Jesus be, for example, and how might,
00:10:08
Speaker
What might it look like to develop and build on those introductory questions? Yeah, right. So probably should I don't want to sort of make out it's all beer and Skittles, because one thing is that just to answer that question, what's that sort of prior? What do they already think about Jesus? Muslims will almost invariably say that they love Jesus.
00:10:34
Speaker
I remember one of my friends outside the gym, his name was Abdi, and he was wearing a t-shirt, and on the front it said, I love Jesus. On the back it says, because I am a Muslim, and he was too. And so Islam has Jesus in there, like he's a figure, he's a prophet. But I asked my friend Abdi, what do you love about Jesus? And he said, it was just a free t-shirt at the mosque.
00:11:04
Speaker
And that was funny, but it's also pretty revealing because
00:11:15
Speaker
Jesus is a prophet of Islam, but if you ask the average Muslim, they won't have a clue what he taught because it's not in Islam. Or even what the Messiah is, it's not in Islam either. So he's sort of this empty figure. But the one thing they do know for absolute certainty is that he's not the Son of God and he didn't die on a cross. So that's the real barrier to overcome is they're sort of prepped up with that that is
00:11:41
Speaker
That's an anathema. In fact, that's the worst sin you could make. Shirk associating anything with God is a blasphemy that's horrific. And so that's the challenge is being able to talk about Jesus in a way that anticipates that objection. And I think the way to go about it is to try and avoid, again, avoid theology. And maybe a useful way to think about it is
00:12:10
Speaker
Just think about, if you're a Christian listening to this podcast, why is it that you believe in the Trinity and that you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? And it probably isn't because somebody sat down and apologetically or theologically argued you into it. It's because certainly in my case, I encountered this person and the only explanation that made any sense was that he was God, the transformation of my life, the miracles,
00:12:38
Speaker
the teaching. And I think that's the way to come at it with Muslims. And so my advice would be to try and sidestep speculative and high level theological conversations. I mean, answer questions truly and honestly, but just say, yeah, I get that these are complex things, but
00:13:00
Speaker
If you believe in Jesus, listen to what he said and see what you think. And look what he did and see what makes the most sense of who he is. And I remember sitting with a guy who was a refugee from Iraq, and every time I went around there, we'd drink coffee for a while, and then he'd just say, tell me one of Jesus' stories, and I'd just read a story.
00:13:20
Speaker
parable or even just an event of Jesus' life. And every time he was in tears, because again, whatever the theological debates, when he met Jesus and when he heard Jesus' truth and the truth about him and the truth he was telling, yeah, that just transcended all the debates.
00:13:46
Speaker
I think there's so much wisdom in there. And I think the other thing I like about that, Richard, I think is ultimately that's the goal of evangelism and apologetics generally, isn't it? It's introducing folks to Jesus, not getting tied up in knots around arguments and say, well, there's a place for those sometimes. So we'll put a link in the show notes to the book you wrote on this, Jesus Through Muslim Eyes, which is a phenomenal book, actually, really encourage people to take a
00:14:13
Speaker
take a look at that. Um, yeah, I agree. Sorry. Just I totally agree. Phenomenal work. Modesty. Well, I'm not gonna stop anyone buying it if you can find one. But the, um, I totally agree with that distinction between apologetics and evangelism, particularly for a podcast. Um,
00:14:40
Speaker
Evangelism is introducing people to Jesus and apologetics is just dealing with people who aren't interested or have objections about even having that encounter. It's a bit like if I want to try and set up my friend, I have a friend who's single and I think, you know what, you'd be great with this person. The goal is encounter is for these two people to meet.
00:15:06
Speaker
But my friend might be scared of relationships. They might have had a truckload of busted ones. They might doubt whether love's real. They might not trust that I know this person well enough.
00:15:18
Speaker
There's a whole lot of dynamics that are going into various objections that will come up, and I might need to persuade them and give good reasons, but ultimately, none of that's the thing. The thing is the encounter, and that's absolutely true. My goal always in that community was just to, particularly that people could pick up a Bible or watch a Jesus video and just meet this person, and instead of worrying about what their teachers had told them about,
Engaging Muslim Immigrants and Refugees
00:15:44
Speaker
theology was just to say who do you reckon this person is and what makes sense of who you again of the things he did and the things he said. The other thing I thought would be interesting to ask you rich as well I mean I if my memory serves me right I think a lot of the encounter you had with with with Muslims over the years has been with a Somali kind of community and obviously many of many of us and many listening to the show are living in context where we have either lots of immigrants or lots of refugees there's a lot of there's a lot of sort of people movement going on
00:16:13
Speaker
right now. Are there any sort of particular sort of bits of wisdom or advice you would share in terms of befriending and making connections with those perhaps new to the country? They've emigrated, they fled their lives from perhaps a war zone or whatever. That's tremendous opportunities to serve, to show the love of Christ, but also to talk about love of Christ. Any wisdom you would have for us on, particularly engaging people from those backgrounds who are new to the West and everything is sort of up in the air right now.
00:16:40
Speaker
Yeah, well, again, like I said earlier, most Muslims are from communities that are very
00:16:51
Speaker
collective and very public. And especially if you're a refugee, you come and you're highly disconnected, you're often disconnected from your own communities. And sometimes you don't trust your own communities too, because of politics. Like you might, if you're a political refugee, then it can be dangerous trusting your own people, which is what where immigrants would normally hang out with their own
00:17:18
Speaker
people group, but that might be a dangerous thing for you to do. So yeah, they are people who are in great need and who are often very lonely and caring for them is a brilliant thing. They're also, they have a whole range of perceptions about the West. One of the things is that the West is Christian. I mean, not only do they think collectively about community, but they think
00:17:48
Speaker
How would I put it? In Islam, there's no distinction between politics and society and religion. There's no church-state separation. None of that is even a concept. So when they arrive, they think it's a Christian place. And they're stunned that Christianity is sort of private. That makes no sense to them. Remember, speaking of refugees, one of my students actually was leaving a house where his housemate was selling a van.
00:18:14
Speaker
A van with no windows, and two Muslim recent arrivals turned up, knocked on the door, dressed entirely like what you'd think. Your perception of what a hyper conservative Muslim looks like, that was them, and they were at the door, and they said, we're here about the van. And his first thought, he was very ashamed, but his first thought was, what do you want with a van with no windows?
00:18:41
Speaker
He was ashamed of himself for even thinking it, but then he thought, well, it's my flatmates van come in a way and he offered them a cup of tea and they sat and started talking. And eventually they found out he was a Bible college student and they just chatted away and they read the Bible a bit together and they talked. Anyway, got to the end and they said, we've been in Australia for about two years. This is the first Australian home we've been in. No one else has invited us in.
00:19:10
Speaker
and you are the first person who's talked to us about God or Jesus or Christianity in two years as well. Yeah, so, and I tell that story, it's a shocking story in a way and it's sad, but it's also a story that you see the opportunities, particularly Muslim refugees, they're longing for
00:19:36
Speaker
for welcome. And they're stunned that they can't have discussions about Jesus with people.
Advice for Women Engaging Muslim Women
00:19:42
Speaker
The opportunities are just huge.
00:19:45
Speaker
So many more questions we'd love to ask you, Richard. I think this is probably our last one before we have to wrap up. But just thinking about those opportunities that we have, for refugees, I think I just realized that most of my opportunities in the people that I meet are probably Muslim men. And so there's probably a whole host of reasons why that might not be appropriate. But do you have any
00:20:13
Speaker
like cross-culturally inappropriate. Do you have any kind of advice on what it would look like to, for me as a single woman, kind of without a family, so I'm not engaging with Muslim women at school or et cetera, what it might look like to get to know kind of Muslim women in the community? And is that the best way to kind of connect with,
00:20:35
Speaker
with Muslims is for me as a woman to speak with women or is it possible to do that with men too? What are some of the dynamics going on here and what might be a good way to do that?
00:20:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. And not just in the Muslim context, in every context, the more culturally sensitive you can be, the more culturally intelligent and engaging with people in ways that they're comfortable, then yeah, absolutely go for it.
Praying with Muslims
00:21:06
Speaker
And particularly if it's a conservative Muslim community. And again, as Andy said, I was with Somalis and they're right out on the hike. And certainly my community was very, very conservative.
00:21:18
Speaker
This takes a bit of cultural nouse, I guess, but there are many situations where women can actually talk to men. They tend to be formal, whether they're a business setting or a teaching setting, or so if you have a role that allows it, that's okay. So it's certainly the private and personal that you'd want to avoid.
00:21:35
Speaker
But again, we have women just don't underestimate smiling in the street and or if you see a group of they love picnics and so if you see them in a park just go and wander up and say hi. But yeah, cultural sensitivity is important. And just on a slightly different note, if this is the last question, let me squeeze something else in. I just remembered it.
00:22:03
Speaker
I just think something is worth bearing in mind in every situation. I would ask someone if I could pray for them, partly because it's never wrong, right? Even the most radical atheist will take an offer of prayer as an expression of care. They might
00:22:24
Speaker
they might think you're an idiot, they might even refuse it. But in the Muslim context, I've only ever had one person ever refuse for me to pray for them. And when I say pray, pray with them on the spot and pray out loud and pray in Jesus' name, don't be ashamed to pray a Christian prayer. And there's a couple of, like I just said, it's an expression of love and that's powerful.
00:22:51
Speaker
But also, I don't know whether this is a good theology or not, but sort of how it worked, I think, is that generally, not always, but generally Muslim prayers are ritual prayers. They're like in the Catholic Church, you pray at home, or they're our Father, and you pray them repetitively.
00:23:13
Speaker
And what they certainly are not is they're not in the power of the Spirit and then they're not intimate with God in that sense.
00:23:21
Speaker
And so when you pray with a Muslim in the power of the spirit, then you're bringing them close to a personal encounter with God. Certainly they're witnessing that happening. And that's stunningly, it's different from Islam and it transcends the experience of Islam. And if God answers those prayers, then they've got a major problem with their theology then, because hang on, if God's listening to the prayers of Christians, then what's going on there?
00:23:51
Speaker
particularly a conservative Muslim. In my community there was only one, the Somalis were particularly resistant to wanting to put their faith in Jesus, but the one guy who did was because I prayed for him on a way to a court case.
00:24:10
Speaker
and he got let off and he thought, and he didn't deserve to be, it's completely guilty. It was a bit of a miracle actually, but he came back and he said, that was all your prayer, give me a Bible.
Conclusion and Practical Encouragement
00:24:23
Speaker
So yeah, you can never get prayer wrong. Love it.
00:24:29
Speaker
Amen indeed. And I think that's a great, that's a great place to wrap. So Richard, thank you for all that wisdom that you shared. I just love how much really practical stuff was in there now. And Christy's got no excuse now. She can get out there and get started, right? Right, yeah. I'm ready for it.
00:24:47
Speaker
Bring it on. Fantastic. Well, Richard, thanks again. And for all of you listening at home or on the car or on your way to a court case, wherever you're catching this episode of Pep Talk, thanks for listening. And Christie and I are back in two weeks time with another guest, another conversation. Thanks for listening.