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What is Disability in Romance?
38 Plays21 days ago
In the twelfth episode of The Write Way of Life’s ~Romance Season~, host Karis Rogerson chats with author Leanne Schwartz, author of the young adult fantasies A Prayer for Vengeance and To a Darker Shore, about disability in romance. They discuss the concept of a “default” in romance and how it applies to disability / ableism in publishing, the importance of showcasing disabled characters falling in love, and how to write disabled characters with sensitivity, respect, and good representation.
Find Leanne Schwartz online. Order her books, including My Kind of Trouble (writing as L.A Schwartz). And follow her on instagram.
The Write Way of Life is a craft-focused author interview podcast by Karis Rogerson & A.D Jolietta. Follow The Write Way of Life on Instagram or find us on our website. Follow Karis on Instagram and subscribe to her newsletter. Follow Adi on Instagram.
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Transcript
Introduction and Topic Overview
00:00:27
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome to a new episode of the Right Way of Life podcast. This is one of your hosts. My name is Karis Rogerson, and I am an author, editor, and podcaster coming at you today from Brooklyn, where supposedly it's going to snow again, which is wild because we still have banks of snow, like super high banks of snow from the last snow.
00:00:52
Speaker
So we'll see if that actually happens. i don't really know. I am introing this episode solo today. My co-host Addy is um wrapped up in some things up in Alaska. So we're just going to go really quickly through this intro.
Meet Leanne Schwartz
00:01:10
Speaker
um This episode is about disability representation in romance and why it's important and matters and how to do it with sensitivity. and um
00:01:23
Speaker
ah respect for the characters and real life people you are representing and I had a really amazing conversation with Leanne Schwartz um Leanne has written several books and I will read her bio now instead of uh winging it so Leanne Schwartz is the author of the young adult fantasies A Prayer for Vengeance and To a Darker Shore and the adult contemporary rom-com My Kind of Trouble writing as l L.A. Schwartz She has spent about half her life at either the library or the local theater, where she has played Lady Macbeth, Lady Capula, and Hera. Perhaps one reason she writes such vengeful, murderous girls. When she's not teaching English and poetry, she can be found baking pizzelle, directing scenes for the Student Shakespeare Festival, and singing along to show tunes. She lives in California with her family. Everybody, will welcome Leanne Schwartz to the pod.
00:02:15
Speaker
All right, everyone. Oops, I think I started talking too soon. All right, everyone, welcome back to this episode of The Right Way of Life.
Diverse Characters in Literature
00:02:23
Speaker
It's your host, Karis Rogerson, and I am here with our incredible guests for this episode, Leanne Schwartz. Leanne, would you mind introducing yourself and talking a bit about your books um in case our listeners aren't familiar?
00:02:35
Speaker
Hi, yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I'm so excited. um I am the author of two young adult fantasies and one adult rom-com, um all of them featuring fat and autistic and demi-rap. My debut was A Prayer for Vengeance about an autistic poet who accidentally wakes a sacred statue who immediately begins calling all of the city's most holiest men.
00:03:02
Speaker
Then for her... Love her. They have to team up and topple an immortal tyrant together. um ah My follow-up was ah to A Darker Shore about an autistic inventor who accidentally nams her best friend to hell in her place. So she goes to kill the devil and stop the sacrifices of forever that he was sacrificed as part of and ends up finding him there. He's still alive, but he's been turned into a monster.
00:03:29
Speaker
And then for something completely different, my kind of trouble is a gender-swapped music man homage with an autistic librarian raising his little sister and fighting book bands ah who falls for a con woman who comes to town selling her fake music festival.
00:03:46
Speaker
And they have to team up and save drag story time and fight, heck, millionaires who bought their way into political power that she needs revenge on. So um if it's not revenge, I don't want it. You know what? thatch That's an iconic thing to say. Yeah. And I am... What about me? I live in San Diego. I'm an English teacher um when I'm not ah writing ridiculous vengeance stories.
00:04:12
Speaker
And ah yeah, that's him. Amazing. i I was going to say something that's going to sound so unhinged out of context, but like I love a book that's like, here's a romance. And also, we're tackling book bands because that is like my beef with... like One of my biggest beefs is like I will go to town on some book manners.
00:04:34
Speaker
I think most authors feel that way, but like, I mean, if you haven't, I i work with the authors against book bans and yeah listening. If you haven't, please join us. Swell our ranks and yes power. It's a great, fight great organization. i get the newsletters and I keep meaning to go to their New York events and then getting scared. um But someday I'll be brave.
Why Represent Disability in Romance?
00:04:56
Speaker
um as listeners may know if they've tuned in before and if you haven't tuned in that's okay you can tune in today and then go back and listen to the rest of the episodes but uh the right way of life is craft focus interview author interview series and we're doing romance season and this is a little like mini section of episodes on the quote-unquote like default in romance publishing as in When telling stories or or commissioning stories, I guess one could say, like, that tends to default to, like, a white, sishet, able-bodied
00:05:30
Speaker
um character makeup ah demographic, I guess. And I personally think that's bullshit. And so I was like, let's talk about it. So we've done queer romance and how that kind of breaks um the default. We've done an episode on BIPOC romance and why that is so beautiful and important. And this one is about disability and romance and like why it matters to feature disabled characters, um both as love interests and as main characters and just like everywhere. um So I would love to get your take on like, what do you think of the concept of like there being like a default that is...
00:06:07
Speaker
Maybe able-bodied. And like, why is it important to break that and show disability and romance? Yeah, I think, I mean, I think what we're seeing a lot, we've we've we've kind of come from a place where people kind of expected that defaults and then we kind of broke away from it. And right now, I feel like especially in romance, we're in this place where everybody really wants to do the self-inserts.
00:06:32
Speaker
um yeah Which is something that I really understand. Like, I love, like, seeing what's unique about a character. And, like, like that makes the story different each time. um Because, like, that's what's fun about the romance to me. Like, when the story is the romance, it's like, well, how does that affect it each time? I do think that there is kind of this expectation of...
00:06:55
Speaker
of of kind of that standard that defaults um and when you break away from it sometimes people are like well why are you doing that like what's the point and i do i do tend to find like ways that a character's like their autism maybe fits like the motifs and themes of my book and that's interesting to me but also I'm very down for books where it's just like, just because they are just because like, if we're talking about self insert, like 25% of people are disabled, like, or something like that at 40. I don't know. I don't do math. I don't do numbers. Sorry.
00:07:29
Speaker
Sorry, people. um But it's, you know, like, it's a huge, like everybody's disabled at some point in their life if they're
Understanding Different Perspectives
00:07:35
Speaker
lucky. um And so it's like, that should be part of the story. And, you know, for me, reading more kind of default characters is,
00:07:47
Speaker
tended to leave me feeling like I was like looking in through the window pane like I couldn't quite connect as well and so I don't know if that's the same key feeling that people have when they read like my characters and they pass on them when gatekeepers have been like i just couldn't connect um if they're having that feeling of like, oh, I just don't jive with it, you know, like, but like that was the feeling for me. And then like opening a book, like um wooing the witch queen. And I was like, these two kids are autistic. Like the butt of them.
00:08:21
Speaker
Like, and it just like, you sink right into the characters in such a different way and just feel so like held and safe and seen as you go on the journey with them.
00:08:32
Speaker
um That I just, I, I'm just, yeah. Yeah. i I have had many responses like that, but I'm not going to stop. I don't care. gain so much when I read it from others. So I just hope that readers find it in my books as well. Yeah. And I have a couple like thoughts that came to mind. Like one, the thought of like, I, like I have major beef with like reading romance for self insert. I just think I don't know.
00:09:00
Speaker
I think like so like that the beauty. are you yeah The beauty of reading to me and that that goes for reading lit fic or romance or genre fic you know, nonfiction even is to learn about other people and to see the world through their eyes because my eyes are limited and it's like kind of boring sometimes in my head. So I'd like to be in someone else's head. Yeah.
00:09:18
Speaker
um So that's like, that's a hill I will die on is like trying to convince people like give it a shot. Like, okay, you like, you would prefer to read like one where you can self insert. Give a shot to a romance where you can't do that. Right. And also like I can self insert anywhere. Like I can relate to pretty much anyone. It's, um It's a gift. No, just kidding. There's some of the aspects of every character that you've got to in common with them. you know like It's Black Month. Everybody read BIPOC books year round. like Yes. I still relate to them hard. 100%. Some of the books that I related to the most are with characters where I'm like, we have nothing in common. Yeah. yeah um like gender, sexually, none of that. We're just so different, but also like you are me and I am you. And like, yeah. um Speaking of, I thought I've brought up heated rivalry every single episode since the show premiered, but um Shane Hollander is one of the characters. He is a man, he is gay, he is autistic and he is Asian Canadian. And I am one of those things. I'm Canadian. I have, right. None of the rest of them, but I like related to him so hard just because
00:10:24
Speaker
I don't know. I like saw parts of myself in him and it was like, well, we're not like identity wise. Like we're not the same, but there are so many things that I can relate to. So yeah, that's, right and I'm going to get Hillary for that. I haven't watched yet.
00:10:38
Speaker
Don't have that channel. hasn't read it. I've just been on deadlines. And so I, well, no, don't pay money to distract yourself. But people keep asking Anna the Shane rep. And I just say, everybody says that they felt very seen.
00:10:53
Speaker
yeah and so like that that sounds good to me yeah it's the same thing like my favorite if anybody asked me you like my favorite like book I'll say it's um actor A.G. Brown oh like so good like I have like maybe two things in common like with those characters
Normalization and Inclusivity
00:11:08
Speaker
but like I still like so had to put the book down and walk away because I was like that just taught me something about myself that I think you know I'm a little uncomfortably seen here Like I'm just like, just that it doesn't, I think it's more interesting if you're not exactly the same. Like, I don't want it to be me. That would be weird. Right. well you love I already have somebody I'm in love with. I want to see two other weirdos fall in love. Yeah, that's real. um But the other thing that I thought it was you mentioning like just how many people are disabled, how many people will become disabled. And I think that's actually one thing that I have learned from being a part of the romance bookish community. Because so the way, at least in America and at least in like my cultural context, right? Disability is like, oh, it's, you know, extreme.
00:11:59
Speaker
People like nobody growing up, nobody was like, well, you have a disability because you have glasses. Right. You have a disability because, like, ah your mental illness. Like, those were not considered disabilities because they were like, oh, it's fine. Like, sure, you have to, like, have um accommodations to, like, go through the world. But, like, that's different than, like...
00:12:21
Speaker
If you have, like, you know, a a a physical disability that was very visible that, like, you know, made mobility difficult or something. But I think there's so much value in being like, no, no, no. Like, it's so common. And it is. And because of that, like, that's not a bad thing to say. It's more just like it's so common. We need to be in more yeah like,
00:12:41
Speaker
create a more accessible world in so many ways. ah Yeah. It's just like, it's like so many things that like, if you're, it's rude to point out that somebody is different. And like, if it's common enough, it becomes so normalized that, Oh, it's not, lot you're not different. Like I cannot function when I can't wear my contacts and i have to wear my glasses.
00:12:58
Speaker
eight but he's so so bad um yeah i was just saying that last night because my contacts died on me and uh and i was in my glasses and i was like i can't drive on the freeway like this like i can't yeah like i was bumping into wall like free route so fixed and um it would give me headaches and just like all this i'm like this is a disability but like people would never call it that but in the in the same way just like nobody wants to point out anything different it's like like oh, you're not fat. Like, you're, you know, you're just like a little cuss. Like, you know, like, no, it's like, it's okay. You can say it. It's not bad. shape bodies There's no judgment attached. Like, and we're disabled. There's no judgment attached, whether it's, you know, like a neurotype or physical.
00:13:40
Speaker
Yeah, there's so many ways. um It was also, it was like YA literature for me that like helped me come to, try it was it was actually Dumplin' by Julie Murphy that like completely changed my view of myself and my body and like my ability to say like the word fat and people would be like, no, and I'd be like, it's okay. Like, it's just a word. It's a descriptor. Like, it's fine. That book broke so many walls down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the Incredible book. I am forever ride or die for Dumplin' too, but Before we get, like, way off track. I'm sorry. No, no, no. I, yeah, I think, and I think there's something to be said for like, normalizing things as, as like, um it's something that I...
00:14:27
Speaker
So my background is like very religious, conservative, evangelical. um And I remember a conversation that I had with someone in my family who had read a book.
00:14:38
Speaker
It was a YA. And um there was very closed door. Like there was the like... ah intimation or like, you know, the suggestion that the characters had slept together because like they were in the room and then they woke up together. And I was like, oh, that's great. Like sex positive. We love it. And it's not explicit.
00:14:57
Speaker
You know, 10 out of 10. And I was talking to my family member and they're like, no, because like premarital sex is bad. And I was like, yeah, but it's like something that happens. And so it's normalizing it. and they were like, well, it shouldn't be normalized.
00:15:09
Speaker
And I was like, oh, this is... a core like worldview difference where like so and not just with sex or queerness or so many other things like even things like disability like I know there are people in my life who would be like well we shouldn't normalize it because like we should fight it we should try and quote unquote fix it and it's like no we can accommodate it we can make world the world easier to navigate but it is a fact of life like you can't like I have like had my genocide now
Challenges and Tropes in Representation
00:15:38
Speaker
Yeah. Like I've had chronic depression since. You're not sure what 100%. I've had chronic depression since like 2009. And it's like that's not going to go away. And trying to pretend that it is or to pretend that yeah I can be healed or I can be cured if my if we just test my thyroid for the 20th time. Like that is a ah way of thinking that still like marginalizes disability. And it's a different way than saying like, okay, we accept that this is your life. Here are the steps we can do to like make your life manageable and to save your life.
00:16:08
Speaker
Let's go. Yeah. No, exactly. Like, and I think, I don't know, maybe it's like the Catholic background. that I feel like Catholic, like mythology and imagery is like much more like we dig body horror, like for some eyeballs on a tray.
00:16:24
Speaker
um Like I, and, and like very much like stooping and lifting up the deceitful, like, you know, the people with wounds everywhere. Like it is, i don't know. I feel like, like I've still played with that in my books. um like, you know, like, oh, I'm monstrous because of my disability, all that.
00:16:40
Speaker
But I feel like that's much more something that I've brought from, like, our society. And I feel like... Yeah. And that might have been why i felt like it was always something that I wasn't as afraid of to explore.
00:16:54
Speaker
Like, that at least, it was very much more like, that is your first priority, is to care for people, like, from that from that tradition. Yeah. interesting protestant listen he you would think the same like foundation would lead to same similar outcomes and yet here we are yeah um yeah i have many many thoughts about that but that's neither here nor there um so what is we've talked a little bit about like We've touched on this a bit, but what is the importance, specifically in romance, of showing disability and, like, a broad range of disability, whether it's mental, physical, and invisible, visible, yeaht etc.? Yeah. I mean, I just, I think it's so important. Like, that's partly why I made my rom-com adult, was I wanted to show on the page, like, and, you know, I'm Demi. I was... a Catholic Sunday school teacher. It's not the easiest thing for me to foray into open door romance, adult romance. But I was like, this is so important because the disabled are infantilized endlessly and showing that somebody in that headspace getting to show that point of view of, you know, like that artistic point of view in a specific case, um,
00:18:14
Speaker
And not that you have to have romance or sex to be an adult and to live an adult life. Plenty of A-spec people do not. But for many people, um the expectation is like, oh, because of your disability, like you never will have that aspect to your life. You'll never have that romance.
00:18:34
Speaker
um Or it is, you know, like on TV shows like, oh, isn't that so cute? Like this, they they have a crush, you know, and it's like, no, like autistic people, you Get married and have kids and that's why there's more autistic.
00:18:47
Speaker
ah Like, we're out here. doing things. ah And so I wanted to show that on the page of like that to counter that infantilization, um which just happens for fat people as well. So, you know, like an autistic man and a fat woman, um that was really important to me with my kind of trouble to show that. And then just for all kinds of disabilities, um I think that there's a lot going on. There's people who are a d or autistic, like getting to show that in romance specifically, um, is very healing, you know, for people who have felt and been told for so long, like you're broken, like you're not good enough. Romance is of course the genre where like you can show that like, no, you like, you're okay. And in fact, you're like somebody's whole world. Um, and you are very deeply loved, like not in spite of it, but it's because of it, and all of that. um There's also the physical disability question. I do think that when we're talking about defaults and like getting getting that door to open more for disability rep, I think there is a huge disparity in invisible disability. And I see it that there'll be disability posts and things going around. And I'm always like extremely honored when I see my book on there, but I will often note that it's like,
00:20:06
Speaker
My autistic book is there, but there's no physical disability there. um So um people like Gretchen Schreiber are writing like physical disability. Sabina Norquist's um It's all in Your Head is out this month.
00:20:19
Speaker
um And what I love about Sabina, and I've done this in unpublished books, um you know, like when you're writing romance with a physical disability, you And I'm working on this in my current current work in progress, um is you have to consider that. Like, it comes into the open door scenes. Like, there are factors where some it's going to look different because of somebody's physical disability. It's not going to be that default, um which...
00:20:46
Speaker
I find extremely exciting. Like if I'm getting bored reading the same beats and the same like lines, they get used over and over. I think I love it when like the characters and it doesn't have to be a physical disability. Anytime in that scene where a character, like that's when they finally crack open and they're like reveal, like their deepest insecurity. Like I'm like, yes, that's like the good stuff. Like we're here in the dark in this moment and the marrow comes out, you know, like I love that. And not just like,
00:21:14
Speaker
okay, we've pressed play on the scene and now it's the lovemaking scene, you know, but like that's where it's very unique to the characters. And so I think that's great. And I do think that there's still a resistance to that, that there might be a character who cannot do all the same physical things, but it's so great that disabled authors,
00:21:33
Speaker
are now writing this representation more because what was lit in the door for so long first was non-disabled or not like people not writing the same disability if they had a different one that was hidden.
00:21:46
Speaker
um But especially for physical disability, um there's a slew of books out there where it's not from people with that lived experience. So now that it's those authors, they can put in like, well, this is how we worked around that. And that's so important because now,
00:22:00
Speaker
people are like learning and also if if a reader has that same experience like they can feel seen like it's finally lining up with their reality like to me it's a craft issue of like is this accurately reflecting our world and when like disabled people are left out like it's you're leaving you know like money on the table in terms of like how good your craft can be so absolutely yeah and i i think you're so right about The craft of it all, because it is, like, it takes skill to write, say, a physical, like, open-door sex scene with a character who maybe, like, has, like, a bad back and can't, like, contort
Authenticity in Writing
00:22:40
Speaker
themselves. I don't know. I don't know. Bad backs, bad knees, bad hip, like, whatever is. Yeah. You know, like. Yeah. Like, it takes, and it takes creativity. yeah
00:22:48
Speaker
both in the bedroom and on the page, um to, like, make that a pleasurable experience. Yeah, like, you don't necessarily have the exact same wording and everything. i mean, it's the same for trying to write a point of view from an autistic point of view that, like, you might have modeled for you of how to get it on the page. yeah's Yeah, so you can't tell it. Yeah,
00:23:07
Speaker
Yeah. And I consider, yeah there's just, there is so much where it's, and I think some of the best tips for that are like read um books about disabled characters by disabled authors. Like that'll teach you a lot. Talk to people. Like if you don't think you know anyone who's disabled, you're probably wrong. yeah um My biggest thing lately is like, I realized that I can do research as in like I can interview people. And like I come from a slight journalism background and I love interviewing people.
00:23:34
Speaker
Obviously I have two podcasts. Yeah. So I was like, oh my god, I can just like call someone up and be like, hey, I'm writing a book about XYZ. Can I talk to you? like I'm writing a book about a child star. Can I talk to you about that experience? you know um There are so many ways to like to learn and to... I think this is maybe maybe a tangent, but...
00:23:56
Speaker
I came of authorly age back in like 2015, 2016 is when I started really like getting involved in the community. And I've seen the waves of like change of the like own voices, only own own voices, no own voices. Own voices. Actually, we don't use the term anymore for very good reasons. We do this. um And I think we're almost at a place, and at least for me, where I'm like,
00:24:20
Speaker
I have my own sort of lines that I don't cross in terms of what I will write and what perspectives I will write from. But also I think that like, I don't necessarily, i think the way to sum it up is like, i I can't tell you what to write. I just can't tell you that you won't have consequences if you do.
00:24:38
Speaker
If you do it poorly. So, like, do it well. if you want If you're a white person and you absolutely must write a book from the perspective of a black woman, because for some reason white women love to write from the perspective of a black woman, like, do it well or there will be consequences. And even if you do it well, like, there are people who aren't going to love it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:55
Speaker
And you just have to live with that. No, I'm exactly the same way that I have my own personal lines, but I also try to remember that not in the case of writing across racial lines, but um although that can happen, like trying to populate your romance. Yeah. Where's a series and, you know, like. It gets complex and people bring in co-authors and there's solutions. But just zoom for for other ah marginalizations, I think that a lot of people do write their way into discovering things about themselves.
00:25:27
Speaker
um Shoot. and And, like, that's like... I would never want to deny someone that. Like, that's why we as humans write. Like, why do we sit down and make up these worlds and stories and imaginary people?
00:25:38
Speaker
Is that a lot of times it's for self-discovery as much as telling a great story. So I do think that people kind of find their way into finding like their queerness or their neurodiversity. um I know for me, i was trying to write autistic characters and I didn't know what I was trying to do. I literally couldn't put a label on it. I knew that I was doing something with how their minds work.
00:26:00
Speaker
Yeah. why they were different both in different ways with books that that you know were in a mentorship program but never published and um and and i couldn't have told you what it was until other people started going like is he supposed to be autistic but which i you know like had been coming out from a different point of view um personally with my family and myself and it like it took writing for it to finally click so i would never deny somebody that like especially for queerness especially I mean, in disability, too, in the world as it is currently.
00:26:34
Speaker
oh God. it Somebody might be keeping something to themselves ah for very many reasons. um And even when the world is nicer, people's families are not always so very nice. and So...
00:26:46
Speaker
you know like I try to keep that in mind to give people space. But I do think that if you're moving into a space, you have such a responsibility to do the research and to do the work. um I see that a lot with fat rep, that people haven't done the work for themselves. And so they're writing handful things.
00:27:03
Speaker
And so I wouldn't want someone to do that with disability either. That's a really, really good point. Like if you... I go through phases where like I am more or less comfortable with my body and my like the way it looks and my size and everything. And so if I'm writing from a headspace where I'm like, I love myself, like I think I look great. It's going to be different book than if I'm coming from at it and trying to write like a positive representation of like a fat woman but I hate myself kind of thing like that's it bleeds into the character and then that bleeds into the reader and like there's so much about um like unconscious yeah biases that can show up in your work and that's why I think like even if you're writing your own experience like it's always good to have someone else
00:27:49
Speaker
No, like with fat rep, like you can vary, but if you haven't like done a little looking into like the history of fat liberation, you're probably going to make missteps and kind of like, you don't even know what you don't know.
00:28:01
Speaker
and the same thing is for disability rep, that people might fall into harmful tropes that they aren't aware of, you know, like get people And like, and, and a lot of really wonderful authors, when people have pointed it out, they've gone like, oh my gosh, like, let me try to fix that. Let me put a little forward.
00:28:18
Speaker
Um, it's because you just don't know what you don't know. So, yeah. hey you I mean, I remember yeah there was a time in my life when people loved inspiration porn. And I mean, like, yeah you know, not necessarily disabled people, but like ah what I was hearing from the people around me was like, oh, it's such a beautiful story because like,
00:28:37
Speaker
ah She, you know, regained her mobility or like he loved her despite her horrible disability of being mentally ill. And it was like, great. Love that. And then the more I learned, I was like, wait, that's actually kind of like.
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah. They don't like it. Yeah. That's not great. Yeah. Because a a lot of books out there were like, well, the disabled character dies, but it's I love it. It's like, no, but but like don't know. Any part of it. yeah Yeah. Oh, man.
00:29:06
Speaker
um What about do you have any tips? We've talked a little bit about the craft, but like for authors who either aren't disabled writing any disability or for like if I am writing like a ah disability that I don't um currently live with.
00:29:23
Speaker
um I get asked a lot, like at the end of panels and things about like tips for writing autistic characters and um or like, I'm like, how did you go about that? And I'm like, well, like i take for myself constantly. um And so I do think that anybody who's exploring it And thinks that like they might relate to it in some way is to to draw from themselves would be my first advice. Like, even if you end up deciding, you know, like or or going on that journey and finding out like, like, no, that that isn't me. But, um you know, autistic people are still humans.
00:29:58
Speaker
ah we have to shoot We have plenty in common. Like you won't go astray, you know, like going on your own humanity, just like for any character, your own like experiences and thought processes. But I mean, I, that is what I tend to do is just noticing, ah patterns in my own thinking and behavior and like coping mechanisms that I've used um and putting that on the page.
00:30:25
Speaker
um I think that for somebody who's writing outside their experience, like doing lots and lots of research in terms of not just from people writing about it like in a clinical way. And there are really good clinical sources out there that are from autistic voices now. Like um you can, you can find those um ah sources more than like, you know, people like doctors with the like, how can we fix this? How can we correct?
00:30:53
Speaker
um But, you know, like reading other autistic authors, there's like so much now. there're so Because, like, of course, like, we're the ones that all were like, we want to hide away and write stories. Like, of course, there's so much authentic autistic rep now um and and other neurodiverse rep. um Yeah. And reading reading all of that. And then when you do your research, don't try to cram everything that you've learned into one character because we're so different.
00:31:21
Speaker
Like... i I have written a few books now, um not all published, with multiple autistic characters. They're such different people. like They have things in common, but they're also like wildly different, as is my experience in my own life.
00:31:37
Speaker
um and you know like say like If there's interesting things that you learn, save them for for another character, perhaps. um Try to figure out what suits that character specifically, because not every trait is going to fit together if there's going to be autonistics who are you know, like very, very, you know, like ah the nonfiction readers and the linear and they like, they love the math and the patterns and all of that. And then they be the ones who are are more, than you know, like language focused. um And some who, some who have severe sensory issues and some who it's more the interpersonal stuff.
00:32:11
Speaker
So it can vary so much. So just to, i that would be my advice is like, try to take authentic inspiration, but then don't try to cram it all into one
Personal Experiences and Writing
00:32:21
Speaker
character. And I think the core of that is, like, remember that your characters, not technically, but, like, you're writing humans. Right. And, like, remember that if you're writing, like, autistic characters, therere they're all human. Like, yeah so no one is every yeah thing. Like, no one has every single trait. And I think of this, like, I've flirted with, like, do I have ADHD? And so I, like, look it up and I'm like, oh, I have this, this, this. Nope, not these other ones. So I guess not. But, like, I still have, like, a couple, like... yeah um characteristics in common right where it's like okay like can understand you because i too have this way that my brain works it's just like i don't have the other you know seven criteria or whatever think like you you relate like that and then you can write yeah authentically and like yeah yeah And as you were talking, I was thinking of like, um specifically like in terms of physical disability, i was thinking of similar sort of principles where I was like, I have chronic back pain. And so I live my life differently than I would if I didn't. Like I can't walk as far. I can't stand for hardly any time. Like I had my friend had to come over to help me rearrange my books because I cannot physically. Yeah. do that labor myself and I was like what if I'm writing about someone who has um a different part of their body that like has chronic pain it's a similar concept I just like use my creativity and imagination to be like okay what if it wasn't my back that was you know causing um not boundaries obstacles or whatever but like what if it was yeah you know what if I couldn't type I would be sad that you you yeah that is just like normal to you yeah yeah character yeah Yeah. And I think a good probably just like general craft tip is remember like you're a human. Like what is it about you that makes you human? Can you like see like find I think i don't know so much of k craft is like seeing your characters is like holy for you and like respecting them and not especially if you're writing um any type of marginalization. It's like you know like
00:34:24
Speaker
so not treating them only that yeah or like stereotype them or you know that kind of stuff like it's it's the whole it's the whole human yeah and just yeah and i think that we see that in like the bad rep that's out there and so it's just really important that people look to the more humanized rep that's out there and not Yeah. Some of the stuff we all on that has been on TV and not, you know, like, I think that's why people were so excited by Shane from what I can tell because previous rap has been very like, it's always all about their autism and it affects who they are. And they're like a robot um versus like, no, like they're living this life. Yeah. Looks a lot like yours, but then also autistic, which is very important and a big deal. You know? as Yeah.
00:35:11
Speaker
That's why i think people are so desperate to like share their stories. Like they want you to say that because they are out there. and Yeah. and And they want to be under. And I think of all the ways that like my personality, I am not, I am more than depression.
00:35:26
Speaker
But I cannot deny that the fact that I have lived with depression for like 17 years has changed my personality in some ways. It affects me. It has made me who I am. In some ways, it's made me better than maybe I would have been. And in some ways, it's probably made me worse. But like, it's but it's not the sum of my parts. It is just like, it is a factor. And I think remembering that, remembering that like every identity that we have affects us, but it doesn't um define us.
00:35:54
Speaker
Yeah, no, the book that i that I am working on that's a completed book that I'm working on right now, the character says that at one point in in regards to a curse that is deeply symbolic, but they walk with me here in the Specific land, that that he's saying like,
00:36:12
Speaker
he will never be free of it because he won't be who he would have been without it. Right. And it was the one that people would text me readers and my sister would text me like really upset that he was admitting that. But I was like, but it's, it's just, he, he would not have become exactly who he is without that experience. Like he's acknowledging that, that like, that's going to be an important step in like moving forward as you're like, that's all part of your story, even if it's not everything about you.
00:36:41
Speaker
And it's the same. This is something I think about a lot is like if I had sat down to write the scene a day later or even an hour later than I actually did, it would have turned out totally different because every scene, every piece of writing we put down is a product of its circumstances. And so are we. It's like... If maybe, you know, if we had moved to Italy when I was sex, sex no when I was like seven instead of four, maybe things would have been different and I would have like a different grasp of reality. But we didn't. We moved at that exact time and that affected me. Right.
00:37:13
Speaker
I was thinking about exactly that, that like, yeah, like you want to sit down and write like the like. yeah a tonic ideal of the book you have in your head but like it doesn't exist it makes me very disappointed that I've had to have you same but no exactly that yesterday I was writing this is the new thing that I'm drafting and it's my first chance getting to write a character with chronic pain And I was having a terrible pain.
00:37:36
Speaker
Yeah. I'm aware. Um, just out of nowhere, like, and, and, you know, was pissing me off because I was writing about like, you know, you know, your patterns, you know, your triggers. And I was just like, you're like stress, I guess. But like, exactly. I was like, um this is going to be a very different chapter. His first point of view ah while I'm feeling this way versus if I was having like ah more removed from it, you know, but um it was very immediate.
00:38:04
Speaker
I feel this most clearly when I accidentally leave off a writing session mid sentence and I'll come back and I'll be like, oh man, if only I knew where I was going. Cause that's a killer first half of a sentence. Yeah. you're not that person anymore.
00:38:18
Speaker
The characters have, I don't even know where I was going. That happened to me recently and I was like, why would you do this? Yeah. Yeah. I have no idea what I'm saying. Oh.
Publishing Challenges and Reader Connection
00:38:28
Speaker
um So in publishing, yeah specifically in publishing romance, especially publishing like romance with disabled characters, I have to assume that there are highs and there are lows. There are good things and there are bad things. There's hardships and there's joys. yeah So I'd love to kind of talk about like each of them to whatever degree you're comfortable. like What is one thing that's really hard about trying to publish, specifically traditionally published, with yeah um autistic characters? And what is one thing that brings you great joy?
00:38:57
Speaker
Or several things. Yeah, it's it's probably the... It's it's probably the the gatekeeper. There are so many people out there who are holding the door open and lifting these stories up. But you are still going to run into lots of people um who will be you know holding your potential ah ticket in their hand and ripping it up saying, like, I just...
00:39:26
Speaker
don't care for this kind of story at all. um We had rejections saying that, you know, like we loved, we we loved everything that was the music man, but of everything else we hated. That's like, that, that was me. oh Everything, that everything. and you So like the fact that I like put an autistic character in and put a fat character in, I was like, that was the part that you hated. Okay.
00:39:51
Speaker
um Or the hating millionaires, maybe, I don't know. ah I was like, okay, so everything else. um Oh, damn. So just that that kind of like statement that, and and just like, yeah, just, repeat it wears on you because you get over and over. Like I queried much, much longer. I was in Author Mentor Match. I was in Pitch Wars.
00:40:13
Speaker
And I watched... You know, dozens and dozens of wonderful friends. So happy for them. Signing with agents. um And I was still querying. And I was querying two books at once at a certain point because I had been querying so long.
00:40:28
Speaker
But I still really believed in what became a prayer for vengeance. um And, you know, I was um i was sitting... on the couch feeling very sorry for myself um because it was the next round of Pitch Wars. And I, you know, like made myself go on and boost my friends because I was very happy for them, but also feeling like I was seeing some of them already receive offers, you know, and just knowing that I was like, well, I did it to myself. I refuse to, you know, like cookie cutter these characters.
00:40:56
Speaker
um And people deal with that for all kinds of marginalizations that they write into their books. But um it definitely um is playing on hard. um And you'll forget yeah to the autism.
00:41:10
Speaker
You'll forget. You'll just be like, of course, like everybody like wants to hear these stories. And you're like, oh some people don't. And that and also the I would say that the other part for Trad Pub is that Everybody goes through this as a debut and even beyond that they don't know how publishing works. Having no schema, having no understanding is very hard, right? Like you don't know, um is this person writing this email to try to let me down gently and I'm just taking it as they like me?
00:41:46
Speaker
And misunderstanding, um like rereading emails that you've received that you are going to send out, not understanding how everything works. yeah That can be really hard versus, I imagine, self-pubbery. You're driving the car. Um, so that can be really exhausting. It's really important to have friends, um, and mentors.
00:42:09
Speaker
Um, but for, for the, it's a thousand percent worth it. Like, I know that other people have, I, I have gotten like some people have like put reviews in my faces where they're like, I, she didn't seem autistic to me at all. It's just like, okay, well.
00:42:24
Speaker
but which mirrored my experience of like girls can't be on test. I was like, she literally like, oh's like, like it's very, like I put such care into into it. She echoes, you know, like other people's words and, uh, she's not, um, uh, even like,
00:42:41
Speaker
Like she was a scientist character, my my one public. And so I was like, she was even like kind of the the archetype that's been excessive. um And so you will get that. But, okay, but um it's a thousand percent worth it. I know people deal with a lot of like of that kind of stuff constantly. I have to say that overwhelmingly it's it's that.
00:43:02
Speaker
And the absolute best part is readers telling you how they felt seen for the first time. um Multiple people have told me that they or their partners have gotten diagnosed and gotten and benefited from the therapies that they then accessed, um improving their lives, discovering that they were autistic because they related to Preston Jones from My Kind of Trouble and Milo from a Prayer for Vengeance.
00:43:25
Speaker
Um, which I, you know, like, I mean, I'm saying that and like, I'm feeling it in my belly right now. Again, like, I don't know how, what you do with that. Like that you, you can't beat that. Like, and just people saying that they had been burned by bad rep.
00:43:39
Speaker
Um, you know, the first autistic rep in a movie was a movie with Elvis and Mary Tyler Moore. And It was horrific. It was actually kind of amazing that female ah character. She was a little autistic girl, but they, like, try to sing it out of her and, like, love it out of her and, like, cure her. And then I think she's cured. She's all better. I can't help her think that. Crazy. He's a doctor. And Gary Tyler Moore is, like, a nurse, ah undercover nurse for Jesus, curing autism. I forget. um But, uh...
00:44:08
Speaker
Like, that's where we're coming from. And so I feel like it's ah maybe not that hard to, um and I'm not tooting my own horn. It's not hard to be better than that. But it means a lot that I was given the opportunity to put those stories out there for people. um Because romance novels, especially in romance stories, ah are like my mental health.
00:44:32
Speaker
Yeah. Tentpole, like, it's the only thing holding this whole place up. The only thing getting me through the night, like, with mad thoughts, kicking the gear. um So the fact that it could be that for anyone else is, like, just astonishing and such an honor. Like, that's definitely the best part.
00:44:52
Speaker
Yeah. I haven't published any fiction yet, but I have written a lot of personal essays about my mental health. And, like, hands down, the best responses are the ones that are, like, oh, I, like, saw myself. And, like, it changed the way I, like, talk to myself. Or, like, it it made me feel seen and, like, reminded me i'm not alone. And it's, like, yeah oh, shit. Like, yeah like you said, like, I don't know how to process that almost. But it's, like, it just, like, sits there and is really positive. And then eventually my brain is, like,
00:45:20
Speaker
Throw it away. Something bad. Yeah. But that's no britain's a jerk. I have to remind myself that I was like, those those ah negative experiences are like literally on one hand and the other ones. Yeah. Like massively. You have to remind yourself that.
00:45:33
Speaker
Yeah. oh like All the time. And it's definitely worth it. okay
Book Recommendations and Writing Advice
00:45:37
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Do you have, um can you share some book recs for romances with a great disability rep? Yes. um So since I write YA fantasy as well, some of these ah might include that. I i made a list because I forget every book that I've ever read.
00:45:56
Speaker
um That's true. First one. So this is a very slow burn. and This is the only the first book is out so far, but Tide Speaker by Sadie Turner is fantastic. Female autistic rap.
00:46:07
Speaker
Just fantastic. I had the pleasure of reading it ahead of time. It just came out, I think in the last month or so. And it's fantastic. um Same thing. Like if you can stand horror, which I definitely like read between my fingers. But ah yeah. End of Joseph White. ah The Spirit There Is It's Teeth. The Romance and Knots. Huh?
00:46:26
Speaker
will stay with me forever. It's amazing. It stands for trans, autistic, um, Okay. In, uh, and, uh, other, let's see, um, all the noise at once was just honored at the ALA by D'Andre Davis. Um, and I just have to shout that one out too, I'm talking about YA. Um, but for adult romance, um,
00:46:48
Speaker
Talia Hibbert is my queen. um the The Brown Sisters series. um The physical disability. I read ah Get a Life, of the first book. Chloe Brown.
00:47:00
Speaker
ah Sitting at my kitchen counter because I was unable to stand while my husband cooked. And that scene literally happens in the book. as i speak And I just about fell over. Like, it just...
00:47:15
Speaker
The way that romance books can tell you that like you're okay. And the way that you're living your life is okay. And that you're still like worthy of love. And it's still like, you can be the main character in your own life, right? You're not like living some like, like class B version of life, but like, no, like this is the heroine and it's okay. Um, tell you how Bert, uh, yeah. And, um, all of her Brown sisters books, but act your age, Eve Brown with Eve and Jacob.
00:47:42
Speaker
Uh, If you have not read this book, I implore you. implore you. it is my is's It's the standard. it's it's the um There's so many other good ones out there. you know like There's the Kiss Quotient, which really broke ground with Helen Huang.
00:47:58
Speaker
um Chloe Lease has ah Two Wrongs, Make a Right, and met much other um disabled rep. um And I highly recommend um coming out this month, Sabina Norquist. Her writing is just...
00:48:14
Speaker
I can't put it down when she sends me a book. So it's all in your head. um is ah like a um he's He's got a bad knee. like from He's kind of like celebrity sports and um deals with you know like the denial of the medical system and everything. So I feel like it's very relatable. But like, Jess, I just want to put her ketchup in the little pocket of my heart. So highly recommend Sabina. Yeah.
00:48:42
Speaker
though do do check them out I mean like I could go on for days like um for ADHD rep Emily Feeds uh This Vicious Grace trilogy um Alessa and Dante hu like just make me light up inside to this day I just that's so good you guys okay and it in it again it is just like that sense of like feeling broken and worthless and unloved and then being somebody's entire reason yeah it's just so good yeah Yeah, I love that.
00:49:14
Speaker
um Is there anything else, either book rec or just like on this topic that you would like to share or add or that you think I should have asked? Oh my gosh, I don't know. um Just that um I hope that, um I think it's really important that if if anybody is writing their disability to, um I do find that I think strategically of like, what can I do to, I love pitching my books. I got, I was really good at pitching before I was good at writing novels. um So it's fun for me to think about like, how can I make this catnip to gatekeepers and to readers? Like we are all depresso and busy and how can i make it?
00:50:06
Speaker
I really think of it in that way of like so joyful that, um, that it's going to like grab your brain and not let go even while your brain, you know, like wants to be a puddle on the floor. Um, So I do think like that, but I also just really recommend like not being scared of leaning in really hard to representing your differences.
00:50:26
Speaker
Because my experience has simply been that when I put it on the page, um... ah You can always dial it back a little bit, but when I've put it on the page, that's always been what people respond to and the the most. um So I really do think that, like, that readership and that connection is out there waiting for you. um And it will be so important to people. and And you should, you know, like lean into it, um show it, get it on the page. If you think it's like too different or too weird, it like it might be just what is somebody was waiting for. and it's going be their favorite book.
00:51:06
Speaker
Amazing. i love that. um Can you let our listeners know how to find and support you and your books? Yes. um So I am on Instagram and Blue Sky as Schwartzworth.
00:51:22
Speaker
You can find my YA books anywhere as Leanne Schwartz, but you do have to search separately for my adults just because we wanted to let people know that it was adults. So that's L.A. Schwartz. It's not a mystery. It's Leanne. It's L.A. Schwartz.
00:51:38
Speaker
um So you can find me online also at leannschwartz.com. And um I will mention, I'm going to be at LovelitCon. That probably will have just wrapped up when this airs. ah But if it's still February, ah my kind of trouble is on sale, the e-book for $1.99.
00:51:53
Speaker
that's all ninety nine And i Hope, like all my stories, I just want it to be a light in the darkness. i yeah It would be a great joy if it could offer a few hours of relief from the horrors of the world.
00:52:08
Speaker
ah but And if be if you have read or enjoyed like my book or any other disabled or marginalized author, like tell someone about it. Let them know. Amazing. Thank you so much for chatting. Thank you much for chatting.