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What is a Podcast? w/ hosts Karis and Adi
29 Plays6 days ago
In another episode without a guest, Karis and Adi chatted about what they’ve learned and enjoyed about the podcast so far. Also, they touched on the discussions surrounding Dramione fanfic turned trad pub books, JKR’s transphobia, and whether there really are too many sapphics in SFF.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Right Way of Life' Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
okay bar
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello, Addie. And well, hello, listeners. This is the Right Way of Life podcast. My name is Karis Rogerson. i am an author, editor, podcaster, now YouTube video series interviewer, just tacking on side hustles that don't pay like it's my job, but which it isn't.
00:00:28
Speaker
You're a quadruple threat at this point, Karis. You're doing it
Location and Lifestyle Chats
00:00:31
Speaker
all. I am trying. um And then I'm here with my co-host, the one and only. AD Joletta, a.k.a. Addy.
00:00:40
Speaker
I'm just here for tech support, man. And hot takes. Just kidding. yeah I was like, that's not true, Addy. Can you imagine if I were doing these intros by myself? I mean, i would be a way different vibe.
00:00:54
Speaker
It would. it very much would. no it's great. We got our little little duo going on. Let's go. when so where are we? When are we, Karis? Karis?
00:01:06
Speaker
Okay, i am in my apartment in Brooklyn, New York, where the AC is busted and has been since Tuesday. i am covered in a fine sheen of sweat and burning up.
00:01:22
Speaker
So if you if I just take a million breaks for water chugging during this episode, it's to avoid passing out and dying. um And it is Sunday, not December, July.
Books and Reading Preferences
00:01:37
Speaker
Sunday, may July 13th of 2025. is just past afternoon and we chitting and chatting. um We're chitting and chatting and I'm here in the Midwest, a block away from Lake Michigan, drinking my hastily made this morning um shaken espresso, which I have now gotten into. I'm sorry, what'd you call it?
00:02:01
Speaker
It's a shaken espresso. I'm sorry. What'd you call it? Expresso. Espresso. Espresso. There it is. There it is.
00:02:10
Speaker
Y'all should see the face. Addy just made their eyes rolled so far back in their head. Oh, Karis, we're taking video for this one because I realized that we need to have this for posterity. So that eye roll caught on 4K, baby.
00:02:26
Speaker
Hell yeah. Yeah. um Espresso, as the Italians say he So what are we reading and writing? i am reading two of my most anticipated books of the year. I'm reading six books and I'll talk about two of them.
00:02:41
Speaker
I have begun reading Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil by V.E. Schwab. And I just, I love it with all of my heart.
00:02:54
Speaker
I love it. i I don't even want to say any of the specific things I love because I think so much of it is like a special experience that you need to have for yourself as you like discover the story and like eat up the decadent prose that's just like chocolate. Like it's so good.
00:03:13
Speaker
um And I'm also like 8% into Chloe Gong's Cold Wire, which is the start of her dystopian y a trilogy. And I'm having a blast with it. um Which is, like, to be expected, i have had a blast with every single Chloe Gong book I have ever read in my entire life.
00:03:31
Speaker
But, like, I was like, oh, dystopia. Like, sometimes that really stresses me out. um And it's like a virtual reality concept, right? Where, like, there's down country and up country? Maybe it's low country. One of the two.
00:03:45
Speaker
But, like... Most people will log into the virtual reality, which is like the upcountry area. And they just like spend like they have a pod where they put their physical bodies and they'll do like daily or weekly or monthly subscriptions to the virtual reality. And then they just come back to Earth for like a day or so to replenish their body um because the Earth is uninhabitable. So they just have to live in virtual reality. And some sharing ends occur that i haven't gotten to yet.
00:04:13
Speaker
Oh, that sounds exciting. I also have on the docket to read V.E. Schwab's new book, but I have not yet started it yet. Do you have it Yes, I have bought it. I bought it from, actually, there was a there's a new local um romance bookstore that opened in my town, and I bought it from there. love a romance bookstore. Yeah, it's called The Well-Read Damsel. Oh, I love the names of the romance bookstores. They're all so cute and clever. Yes, very, very cute. too I love that.
00:04:44
Speaker
What have you been writing lately?
Writing Projects and Self-Publishing Challenges
00:04:46
Speaker
um I am working on drafting a book that I think I'm gonna self-publish. It's like, um ah it the only reason I'm self-publishing it is because the genre itself is dead, right? It's a- that was an excited, not like a bad.
00:05:00
Speaker
No, I mean, i I figured you were about to be like, Addy, why are you doing that terrible thing? um Because we support self-publishing this podcast. um No, it's because the genre, like I had this brilliant idea and I just started writing it and it's unfortunately like alternative history, but mostly historical romance, which as we all know, sadly is dead.
00:05:19
Speaker
Well, I wouldn't say dead. I would say publishing is trying to murder it. Right. Yeah. And I'm just not in the mood to try to fight for my life. That's fair.
00:05:31
Speaker
um And I'm also editing the the modern the modern day ah contemporary rom-com. I can never remember the word contemporary. I just always want to say modern day because that's, I guess, I i live in the past.
00:05:43
Speaker
um So that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing. What is your deadline for finishing the contemporary rom-com? ah The deadline to finish the contemporary rom. ah So editing it, I'm finished so i'm this is I need to I need to say things coherently.
00:06:00
Speaker
um So the goal for this month, which is very um advantageous of me and perhaps, and advantageous is the wrong word, but. Ambitious? Ambitious. Thank you. Yes.
00:06:13
Speaker
I mean, it starts with an A and has like a tush there. Ambitious. A tush. ah So I am drafting the first draft of the historical rom-com and I am editing the contemporary rom-com at the same time. And they're both, I'm but going to finish the first draft um of the historical rom-com July 31st and finish editing first round July 31st of the contemporary.
00:06:42
Speaker
So okay we shall see so far are on track.
00:06:49
Speaker
Love that for you. Yeah, we're about halfway through with both, which is crazy. how i I have forgotten to update my um author Instagram about that progress because I kept just forgetting about it because i I just have not felt the need to minutely go into Canva and change those little numbers. I mean, fair. Yeah. That's fair.
00:07:14
Speaker
Yeah. But anyways, and then predominantly though, I'm i'm reading some friends' um books that they've written, some beta reads. really? Yeah, which is very fun. Do you know any of them?
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah, you do. I mean, yeah, but I'm not going to, I can't, because, you know, the the books are, theyre but you know, I'm beta beta reading, beta. What am I, British? i don't know.
00:07:38
Speaker
So that was wonderful to watch. Thank you.
Balancing Writing and Well-being
00:07:41
Speaker
Um, i am revising my adult celebrity romance. I'm taking my time with it. I'm trying to do like one chapter a day.
00:07:52
Speaker
And that's going well. I'm having a lot of fun with it. And it's really in this fun stage where like I can see where my agent's notes and my implementation implementation of said notes are genuinely making this a much stronger book.
00:08:05
Speaker
Not just like more stronger, but like more enjoyable to read and to like live in the world. So that's really exciting. um i was trying to also draft at least 30 minutes a day of my paranormal adult romance.
00:08:18
Speaker
But then i was like, I'm so tired all the time. Why is life so hard? And one of my friends was like, well, Karis, you're recovering from burnout. So you should be doing like max like 50% of what you think you should be doing.
00:08:32
Speaker
And I was like, what do you, what do you, what? Slow down. What do you mean? and she was like, Karis, you will continue to burn out if you try to hit your max capacity, even knowing that your max capacity is lower than what it is when you're not burned out.
00:08:48
Speaker
So I think I'm going to just kind of like go a little bit more with the flow. And like I'm going try and I'll just revise a chapter a day of revenge. And then if I'm ever feeling extra strength, I will do a little clickety clackety, a little draftity draftity on witches.
00:09:07
Speaker
And if not, I will take a break when I'm done with this round of revenge before I try to put it onto my Kindle app and read it. And I will do some drafting during that week.
00:09:19
Speaker
Hell yeah. I love that. but The goal is i have about 18 chapters left to revise. And my goal is I would like to finish by July 31st.
00:09:31
Speaker
So then I can take a week of break and then I can read it through and do some like tweaks and then I can send it to some critique partners and then I can do another revision. And then by then my agent and should be, ah well, I mean, they're having a baby.
00:09:48
Speaker
So it's like, When will he ever be back to, you know, ah Wait, what I mean is like, when will, I was like, by the time I'm ready for it in like mid September, he'll be able to balance everything. But then I'm like, i don't know what the baby, do you ever really balance things?
00:10:02
Speaker
It's a baby. He'll he'll be off paternity leave by then. Probably. Yes. Yes. And so I'll be able to send it to him. And he has warned me that to get, he was like, and take your time with it. Like do a really good job with it because I'm having a baby.
00:10:20
Speaker
And I was like, fair. Yeah. um So that's why I'm doing like multiple rounds between sending it back to him because I don't want to send him a book that like isn't almost sub ready. Right.
00:10:30
Speaker
Right. That makes sense. Yeah. That's exciting though. I know. I really, my dream is like to be able to go on sub by October. We shall see if that happens because that is a mere three months away. Well, four months if you count July.
00:10:45
Speaker
Yeah. We're not even halfway through July. yeah. So sad. um Yeah. And then as the year continues, I will. This is totally off topic, but like i've I've applied to so many workshops and retreats for next year. And I just need to start hearing back from them so that I can make plans.
00:11:09
Speaker
Why am I doing that with my hand? um I keep forgetting we're being videoed. I mean, i'm I'm just trying to get us content for our TikTok account so that we can go viral and get tons of followers.
00:11:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think that you should definitely post this on TikTok because I look great. um Anyway... So this episode is going to be, again, a little different. We don't have a guest. We are gearing up for a really it season finale where we will have a guest.
00:11:40
Speaker
But this week, it's just ah me and Addie and we thought that it would be really fun to do some reflecting on the podcast so far.
Season One Reflections and Future Plans
00:11:48
Speaker
We've done 11 episodes. We've had nine guests.
00:11:51
Speaker
We have talked about craft topics. We've talked about what craft is. We've talked about AI and how it is the devil. So I thought it would be really fun if we just kind of like chatted about what this experience has been like because it is my first time doing a podcast. As far as I know, it's also Addie's first time doing a podcast.
00:12:13
Speaker
It is. It is. Yeah. And I think it's been so much more fun than I expected and I truly thought it would be so fun. Yeah. No, it's been really great. It's been like, I think for me, selfishly, i think this has really kicked my butt into gear to ah focus more on my writing. I mean, ah um I have a day job, of course, so I have to pay the bills that way. But, you know, a lot of my favorite writers still keep their nine to fives and continue to write. And I think that, like, listening to this podcast also, I think, has empowered me to feel a little bit more confident in my writing craft, right?
00:12:52
Speaker
um and i hope that listeners who have been listening to this as well have gleaned enough information that they feel more confident to um about their writing craft because i think for me my biggest hurdle in in writing is imposter syndrome um and it's been lovely sometimes too to hear from folks of like they they're talking about these craft subjects and i consider them an expert in it but also it's you know they're they're just people and they're going along and sometimes making it up as they go. And and some folks- are Award-winning authors.
00:13:24
Speaker
They're just like us. They're just like us. What? oh But I i think I said in one of the earlier episodes, like episode one or episode two, that like I felt like I was getting an MFA.
00:13:36
Speaker
And I still feel like that. like I felt like this first season was just like me getting a little writing MFA. I know I'm not. I know for folks like you, Karis, who've actually gotten an MFA, it's nothing like it.
00:13:47
Speaker
um But I mean, it's it's different, but I think the learning is still there. Right. Like you might not have a degree that or a diploma that you can throw to a university and be like, pay me to teach.
00:14:00
Speaker
um But you're still like you're putting in the work. Yeah. To learn and you're putting in the work to write. And I think that's really cool because. Um, i have been through periods of my life where I was working full time where writing took like a way, way backseat just because of the type of job that I had. And I know that you have been in a period recently where your job parentheses S close parentheses have been all consuming because you had 17 them.
00:14:36
Speaker
may move, yes. And it's really hard to find time to write when you're not just working, but you're also hustling and you're also hustling some more and you're also doing a third hustle.
00:14:47
Speaker
ah Like, how do you fit in time for writing when you could be doing paid hustles instead? That's something that I think about a lot. And... Um, so I've definitely been through phases where writing has taken a backseat. And I'm really grateful that since about 2021, I've been able to have a day job and really focus most of my life on writing. It does mean that my social life is deeply pathetic.
00:15:10
Speaker
Um, but that's, I mean, it's, it's all about balance. I don't have balance, but we're going to get there someday. Yeah. When you're a bestselling published author. And I live in Italy again.
00:15:25
Speaker
That's what I want for you, Naxa, is I need you to move to Italy for Syria. Don't we all need me to move to Italy? Yeah, I um i've really enjoyed doing this podcast in part because I'm a yapper.
00:15:39
Speaker
And this has given me ah golden opportunity to yap. um As I sat on a panel I was doing recently, I'm the number one yapper in all of my discords.
00:15:52
Speaker
It's lit like you can tell, like I'm ranked number one by like 3,000 messages. Like I i won't shut up. People are begging me to shut up. They're praying to all the gods known to man for Karis to shut up, but I will not do it.
00:16:05
Speaker
Karis, who's telling you to shut up? Give me their name, their address, and I'll go take them out back. Okay. Karis Rogerson, Brooklyn, New York. No, Karis, no. You're not allowed.
00:16:18
Speaker
This is no self-hate on the podcast. No. yeah No, I think it's been it's been really fun just sort of recognize that like, okay, I did my MFA, it was two years, and I graduated and I was like, I don't know if I learned anything. Not because I didn't trust my advisors to have taught me.
00:16:40
Speaker
I didn't know if I had put in the work to learn what they were teaching me. So I've spent in the past year, year and a half being like, what did I get out of the MFA other than, you know, my besties and my diploma. um And doing this podcast, there have been moments where I was talking to our guests where I had epiphanies that weren't just like craft epiphanies, but were also like, oh, you you do know some things, epiphanies.
00:17:06
Speaker
And if you know me... You know that I have a really hard time um believing in myself and thinking positively about myself. Like it genuinely feels like I'm doing something real bad if I say something semi-nice about myself.
00:17:21
Speaker
So even saying the words, oh, maybe I do know something about craft. I'm like, you got to smack yourself and then like say something self-deprecating. And I'm trying really hard not to. um I didn't smack myself.
00:17:34
Speaker
I just pretended to. Anyway.
00:17:38
Speaker
So that's been really fun. It's been really great to sort of reconnect with some authors that I had previously connected with and to find new authors that I hadn't ever spoken to. Like, i wasn't already ah friend or, you know...
00:17:56
Speaker
ah acquaintance of Hannah Kaner and we spoke to her about plot and it was such a great episode and I walked away from that really feeling like I had not just learned a lot from a really incredible author but also had like a connection with her um and I'm just really excited to follow the rest of her career and i Really loved getting to chat with some authors that I hadn't chatted with in a long time.
00:18:21
Speaker
um Like Emily XR Pan or Camilla Cole. Just authors who are saying like they they're doing really good work. They're putting out some of my favorite books and they're also really lovely people.
00:18:35
Speaker
And i just don't know how i got so lucky that they're like letting me talk to them on a podcast. Also, something that I learned, so much easier get interviews for a podcast than for a blog post Q&A.
00:18:51
Speaker
I think a lot of people love to yap as much as you love to yap. Fair. Yeah. But even like I'll reach out to a publicist and they're like, oh, I'm so sorry. Award winning bestselling author isn't available right now. But like in three months they will be. Do you want to wait? And I was like, wait, what?
00:19:08
Speaker
It wasn't just an outright no? Okay.
00:19:13
Speaker
Delightful. and
00:19:16
Speaker
So fun. Yeah, I think this this podcast has been just ah really just a really cool like learning opportunity for us, empowering, i hope. And I think that what we created, too, has been pretty fantastic.
00:19:30
Speaker
um Yeah. And we're learning as we go, like we're learning how to market ourselves. been real hard yeah ah is is if anyone is listening and would like to help us with marketing please slide into our dms call me um and we look out for like a branding and refresh before season two Intent. Wink, wink.
00:19:56
Speaker
We are really excited, too, about our second season. We had a little um virtual retreat that lasted an hour and a half in May where we just kind of planned out what we want our next season to look like. And I, for one, am so stoked.
00:20:14
Speaker
um We're just, we're really, like, ramping things up. We are getting our ducks in an order. I am learning... I'm learning how to, like, coordinate things on the back end in terms of, like, guests and schedules and all that fun stuff.
00:20:34
Speaker
um So it's been really good. And...
00:20:40
Speaker
Oh, dear. i just lost my train of thought. How embarrassing. And that's what editing is for. No, keep it in.
00:20:51
Speaker
um Yeah. So that's our season. We really hope if you're listening that you've enjoyed it. um If you listen to one episode or all 11 so far, we appreciate you.
00:21:03
Speaker
If you are listening and you have loved it, I will say what I say every day, which is follow us on Instagram, comment on Instagram, leave us a review, leave us a rating, send us to your friends.
00:21:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And one final thing we wanted to chat about before we sort of sign off and leave you with a hint hint wink wink for next episode.
Transphobia in Publishing: Moving Toward Inclusivity
00:21:35
Speaker
Let's talk ah about transphobia in the bookish community.
00:21:44
Speaker
Which is one way of saying there's a topic of discussion. There is a... Yeah, a topic of discussion. Something that has been on the forefront of many bookish people's minds.
00:21:56
Speaker
Specifically on threads, but all over the bookish world. For the past couple of weeks. um Precipitated by the publication of a couple of books that are being marketed as Harry Potter slash Jermione fanfiction.
00:22:12
Speaker
And the The thing is, you you can't really be in publishing and not know about JKR. Karis, I want to stop you. quick Dramani fanfiction, that's Draco and Hermione. Draco and Hermione. Just want to make sure the listeners know know what I'm... From the Harry Potter universe. Yes, from the Harry Potter universe. It is a fan fiction relationship that's very popular in those and it's sort of a reimagining of like what if in the books they were actually in love while he is slinging slurs at her anyways continue on okay so
00:22:55
Speaker
it's been a hot topic i ah have been an avowed anti-JKR person since her transphobia first came out. i found that the Harry Potter books were very good for me in my high school days. They found- they gave me lots of comfort.
00:23:17
Speaker
They brought me lots of joy. But I didn't find it all that hard when she revealed herself as a transphobe who was using her platform and her money to actively harm trans people, both in her country and across the globe.
00:23:33
Speaker
Didn't find it that hard to say, you know what? It's not actually worth trans people's lives to keep engaging in this fandom. Which is maybe because it wasn't as formative for me as for many people. i didn't read it until I was already 15. Or maybe...
00:23:48
Speaker
i or maybe I just was, I don't know. But i have a hard time comprehending the clinging to it.
00:24:02
Speaker
Because,
00:24:06
Speaker
i mean, we live in a really great time for kidlit, for diverse kidlit. There are some incredible magic school stories, like Donyell Clayton's Marvelerverse. is really good. The Claribel A. Ortega's Witchlings books.
00:24:22
Speaker
um They are magical. They are school stories sometimes. They have houses that you can sort kids into. They're queer affirming. They're racially diverse. like therere And they're really fun too.
00:24:37
Speaker
they're It's not like they're just like You know, like they're they're good stories. And I think that, yes, for so many people, Harry Potter was huge and massive and foundational.
00:24:49
Speaker
But we have to make room for new stories to be huge and massive and foundational in our lives and in kids' lives. Yeah. And i want to I want to speak as someone who was obsessed with Harry Potter and would have ranked Harry Potter as like the second most foundational thing that I ever read as a kid.
00:25:08
Speaker
Like I read, i read yeah you know, prior to the blatant transphobia that J.K. Rowling started to spew, I would reread the Harry Potter books in their entirety at least once or twice a year.
00:25:22
Speaker
I had an encyclopedic knowledge of the Harry Potter universe. I knew fan fiction. I knew not, like i i would unearth interviews that J.K.R. did and like from like 2004 and would keep that information in my little noggin and being like, actually, this is.
00:25:37
Speaker
Like absolutely obsessed, had multiple Harry Potter themed birthday parties. Like I had the robes, I had the wands. The whole kick-hand caboodle, like the thing that I would do is i'd I'd make my friends in high school take, or rather in middle school, i would like I would make them take the sorting quiz and I would judge them if they were not in a house that I liked, which like perhaps is a precursor to the fact that the Harry Potter universe is steeped in prejudice and racism and sexism and the fact that you're sorting small children based on their...
00:26:10
Speaker
you know traits in that moment and then judging them for the rest of their lives oddly enough i will say the first like crack in the armor of my of my eventual um the hatred of the harry potter series was the fact that i took the official sorting quiz and it sorted me into slytherin Which that track broke, I mean, yeah, i absolutely.
00:26:36
Speaker
i ah in ah In a typical Slytherin move, um I took the sorting quiz so many times and I kept trying to choose different answers, but were still true to me and I still kept getting Slytherin until I finally got Ravenclaw after 22 attempts.
00:26:53
Speaker
And a spreadsheet to figure out. Not a spreadsheet. i was I was like, this is wrong. Which, anyways. um But that is to say that, like, it shook me to my foundational core when I got Slytherin because I thought it meant that I was a bad person.
00:27:08
Speaker
Which, like, as a children's book is something that should not do to a kid. I mean, it's really when you think about it, you get Slytherin, you're a bad person. You get Hufflepuff, you're boring. You get Ravenclaw, you're smart and that's it and You get Gryffindor and you're perfect.
00:27:22
Speaker
Right. You have one option out of four to be happy with yourself. Two if you consider smarts to be good. Yeah, exactly. And like for me, the way that I see it is like something could have been foundational to you. But once you grow up and know more and recognize that that is actually a harmful thing, like you have to let it go.
00:27:44
Speaker
Right. You have to you have to be better. I think it ties, honestly, i think perhaps and I could be wrong, but I think this ties into white supremacy and white folks is idea that like they can't be racist or that they couldn't have.
00:27:59
Speaker
um experienced any sort of privilege in their lives if they weren't like a super rich person, right? Like it's an unwillingness to take any personal responsibility or to say that like I am complicit in this thing.
00:28:13
Speaker
So it's like, yeah, we we know that JKR is bad and I'm not going to really spend my money now, but like this was really foundational to me and you can't take that from me. And it's like you can change and grow as a person and recognize that this thing that you loved is harmful and hurtful.
00:28:29
Speaker
Like you don't have to necessarily say to the 12 year old version of yourself like, oh, you need to hate that. Like you were no, no, you didn't know any better at that moment. but now none of us did because she wasn't writing essays and well publicly bankrolling turfy legislation right i mean there are yes and you know especially for me as a non-binary person it like it's a little bit more it's like a her it's like a knife in the back um but there's other genuinely like but super problematic things just within the Harry Potter world it is like a racist and anti-semitic book series steeped in those things regardless of the blatant transphobia from its creator like Cho Chang or Kinsley Shacklebolt
00:29:19
Speaker
what are those names for it's just it's she's done she doesn't have any curiosity no about any other experience.
00:29:33
Speaker
No, and that's the thing where it's like, ah For me, it's like you said, if if you're clinging to Harry Potter for the nostalgia aspect that you want a fantastic, magical series to give to your children or your future children, there are other book series that are so much more inclusive and written by people who are not outright bigots that you can give to your children or your future children.
00:30:00
Speaker
And they will do better the more you buy them. So, you know. Yes. Whatever. um Capitalism breeds money, etc, etc. Anyway. Yeah, and...
00:30:18
Speaker
was never Dramion-y shipper. Mostly because the book wanted me to hate Draco Malfoy, and so I hated Draco Malfoy. um There are Whatever. We don't need to get into the, like, ethics of the shit.
00:30:35
Speaker
what we do need to talk about is just, I don't know, for me, a lot of my own sort of deconstruction journey, radicalization, radicalization journey, and coming out journey started with, um, it being a matter of respect for other people.
00:30:57
Speaker
Because when my first, um, Non-binary friends came out to me as a non but non-binary. I have never heard the term, was not familiar with the concept.
00:31:10
Speaker
No gender could be, was a social contract construct, could be anything but like rigid like armor that you put on yourself. I...
00:31:22
Speaker
had no conceptualization for it, but my friends were like, listen, i am, you know, I think it was like 2016. So um a lot, like a common term was like gender nonconforming.
00:31:35
Speaker
Um, or, you know, and then eventually like a lot of people started coming out as non-binary. But the, to me, i was in the church and I wasn't sure if I could believe that it was okay to be trans, but I did know that I'm supposed to love my neighbor and part of loving my neighbor means respecting them. And when my neighbor comes to me and says, this is who I am, this is how I want you to talk about and to me.
00:32:04
Speaker
I say, okay. And so I used the correct pronouns. And so I started training my brain two break that gender binary for myself too, because I knew that like I could, I could pretend all I wanted to be an ally, but I needed to internalize it as well.
00:32:26
Speaker
um All that to say, i think it's a similar case now where
00:32:33
Speaker
You might not get why writing and or supporting Harry Potter fanfiction is hurt hurtful to trans folks. But there are so many trans people. Writers, readers.
00:32:49
Speaker
Those are are the main categories. um Writers and readers telling you like, hey, this woman, she's hurt us. This franchise is now...
00:33:00
Speaker
a wound, like it's salt in the wound of her words. And you supporting her, like you are giving money back to her. You are keeping her name in people's mouths. You are keeping her franchise alive.
00:33:12
Speaker
She is taking the money, taking the notoriety that comes, and she is harming people with it. But even if she weren't, this is something that hurts me. And i just think it doesn't matter if you can grasp why.
00:33:26
Speaker
it just matters that you need to respect your loved ones. I also think that any time that you have to post marketing and then add the asterisk, but I want to make it clear that I'm a trans activist and I believe that trans people have a right to live and not be harassed and not be legislated out of a like, the the if you need to make an asterisk that you're not a bigot and you're not transphobic, perhaps your marketing needs to change.
00:34:00
Speaker
I also think, and I'm not sure if this is like, so tell me, Addy, if this is like a false equivalency or whatever, because I can trust you to actually know logic. um I just look around it and I've been doing interviews for an article I'm writing about book vans.
00:34:17
Speaker
And I look around it and I see the government and i see agents of chaos, like Moms for Liberty. And I see... bigots and they are trying to keep publishers, keep libraries, keep schools, keep writers from telling stories about trans people, about queer people, about BIPOC experiences.
00:34:43
Speaker
And instead of putting their time and effort and money to fighting those book bans, publishers are putting their time and effort and money to publicizing Harry Potter fanfic.
00:34:56
Speaker
And to me it feels like
00:35:02
Speaker
It just feels like a slap in the face. Like, we don't care that your books are being banned and you don't know if you'll be able to make a living as a writer. Or you'll be, you know,
00:35:17
Speaker
um persecuted yourself for having written queer stories. We don't care. We just want to make money and we can make money with Harry Potter. Right.
00:35:28
Speaker
I mean, I think it all ties into the fact that we're on um a we're on a train that is headed towards fascism, like conservatism. mean, I think we've crossed the boundary, the border into fascism. We just aren't at the capital yet Sure, sure, right? But like businesses, publishers, right, can see that that is where we're headed.
00:35:50
Speaker
And they're making calculated moves to try and protect themselves and protect their assets and protect their money. So like transphobia, racism, book bans, all of that level of censorship lives within the fascist playbook.
00:36:05
Speaker
And so I see why publishers are making that calculated decision. I don't like it. I just think it's the same as what I was saying two weeks ago when we talked about AI. It's not inevitable.
00:36:18
Speaker
Fascism is not inevitable. Target, publishers, everyone who's backed out of pride, like, you can you can actually affect the course of history by taking a stand.
00:36:31
Speaker
And yeah, maybe if fascism will get mad at you and you'll lose, you know, some market share or whatever, But I really don't give a fuck about your money when people's lives are in line, on the line.
00:36:45
Speaker
Right. And like we've seen even in this past month um that the American people specifically are genuinely putting their lives on the line and being absolute menaces to ICE agents and other agents of fascism in ways that...
00:37:04
Speaker
we didn't necessarily see in the rise of fascism in Nazi Germany, right? Like there is a, you know, um so I think, I think you're right.
00:37:14
Speaker
You know, we, it is not inevitable. And I think that that's why i side-eye anyone who is promoting this book that is capitalizing on JKR, even if you're saying, oh, just a fan fiction.
00:37:28
Speaker
Like you're still promoting the Harry Potter world, which as we've said, is not only from a transphobic creator and transphobic, but it is also steeped in racism and antisemitism.
00:37:41
Speaker
Like it is not a world that I think that if you If you write a fanfiction and you decide that you want to strip it of all the fanfiction elements and then publish it under your own unique world, that is under your purview. But please don't market it to me as a fanfiction reboot.
00:38:00
Speaker
Right? Like, let's not even talk about the copyright bullshit. No, I mean, it it's very like they... The recognition that the Harry Potter connection is going to bring them greater visibility than they might potentially have on their own.
00:38:21
Speaker
Which like, first of all, I don't even understand because one of the authors has fan base already.
00:38:29
Speaker
Yeah, and if if if the point of the marketing it is like Dramoni ship, there are other enemies to lovers that you could say. I mean, like, hell, you could go to Star Wars. Say it's like a fantasy version of Star Wars between Rey and... Kylo Ren.
00:38:47
Speaker
Kylo Ren, thank you. I was like, who's Adam Driver's character? That wave has passed. The Reylo wave has passed. Yeah, Reylo. I don't know. I just...
00:39:02
Speaker
I have a lot of feelings and I have a lot of disappointment in authors that I thought would be willing to take a stand for their trans colleagues and readers.
00:39:18
Speaker
who And I have had friends or like close acquaintances in the past who have been called out on social media And sometimes I agreed with the call outs and i took pains to speak to that person.
00:39:42
Speaker
and like, it's really hard to no longer have a relationship with someone whom you love and who has even supported you greatly. And I'm not saying that every author who's friends with one of these authors needs to cut them off. I am saying though that like, they should, like,
00:40:02
Speaker
it's really disappointing to see vocal support instead of gentle call-ins. And for all I know, they are calling them in, but like then they're also supporting them. So it, it, it's confusing.
00:40:18
Speaker
Right. I think that, I think that any, like the bookish community, right, is relatively small it ultimately. And
00:40:31
Speaker
I think that it's necessary for as a community to to call like you said like call in or call out depending on how close you are with the person. yeah that sort of bad behavior, but there are always repercussions to that. like they're like the the The idea of like restorative justice is not necessarily that there is a like punitive repercussion to an action that causes harm, but there should be something that affects that individual so that there so that there is a level of harm reduction and hopefully that there is some
00:41:07
Speaker
mechanism or effort to change behavior as well as to restore like the loss that has occurred. But I don't see any of that. I just see a lot of folks either rightly so calling out using this sort of marketing tactic or just saying why are you trying to you know torpedo this author's book and like this really matters to them and it's like how else should they market them it's going to that that's how they can sell the books i think if your book can only be marketed sorry no no you're fine
00:41:44
Speaker
I think if your book can only be marketed by the fact that it is inspired by another piece, that makes it slightly derivative. And maybe you should go back to editing it a little bit and make it more set on its own.
00:41:56
Speaker
Yeah. To the point of people saying like, well, there's no other way to market it. look Yeah, there are. They can market it for like what makes the story unique. But if all it has is that it's sorry.
00:42:07
Speaker
No, go ahead. is No, I was done. I was just going to repeat myself. Okay. Okay. No, I think like this, this gets into a conversation which Victoria Avard um talked about on I think one of one of her recent podcast episodes, which is like, we're in dangerous territory in terms of fan fiction land, if these books now are being marketed as fan fictions from the original IP, because sure, Harry Potter is like this massive IP and like, JK Rowling is not gonna miss not getting any cut of the royalties but jk rowling could also sue the shit out of those authors if it's that derivative that the only way that you can market it is by saying that it's a fan fiction of that work like anne rice is dead but sorry maybe her ghost is still living in someone else
00:43:01
Speaker
The fanfic hater ghost has passed on to someone else. Yeah. I mean, and I love fanfiction. I grew up writing it. I still write fanfiction. It's just when you try to make money off of it that it's like, and specifically make it off of marketing, the fact that it comes from something else.
00:43:18
Speaker
Right, because we all hate JKR, but like if this were any other author that was not a transphobic bigot, that's a huge problem to me from a copyright perspective.
00:43:30
Speaker
And I think that like it's it it it sets a dangerous precedent both on supporting an author who is actively harming trans people and also setting a precedent that you can market fan fiction books you know fan fiction book i with their original IP because if it's not Harry Potter and if it's a smaller author, like, why are they not getting a cut of that income?
00:44:00
Speaker
That's what I would ask. Like, if if my books spawned fan fiction and then that author retooled it enough that, like, technically it's a new idea but they're marketing it as fan fiction of my work, I would want a cut of that.
00:44:16
Speaker
Right? Mm-hmm.
00:44:20
Speaker
And so then it just makes it dangerous for everybody else, which is yeah you know circling back to the Anne Rice whole thing of maybe, yeah. you know So just don't do it.
00:44:31
Speaker
Yeah. To me, it it boils back down to I believe trans people when they tell me that J.K.R. is harmful and that promoting these books as Dramiani fanfic is hurting them.
00:44:46
Speaker
And I think you should, too. And respect them. Not you, Adi. You, anyone else. Yeah. Yeah. I mean... ah Yeah. i have not met anyone who is...
00:45:03
Speaker
openly liked harry potter in a very long time mostly probably because if anyone does mention harry potter in my presence i tend to growl at them and stare them down with the hatred of a thousand suns that was a growl at them but ah i'm very good for you with my book take no same yeah um just overly aggressive Overly aggressive.
00:45:28
Speaker
So, yeah. So
Diverse Representation in Literature
00:45:31
Speaker
we have another topic to discuss, speaking of um problematic things happening in the bookish world recently.
00:45:40
Speaker
ah Specifically, apparently, Karis, did you know this? There are too many gay women in science fiction and fantasy books.
00:45:51
Speaker
I had no idea. I know this because SFF is indeed the gen the but area where I go to find sapphics. Yeah. I mean, you know. To me, there are sapphics in SFF. it's i'm just that It's not like there's no men.
00:46:10
Speaker
Right. It's not as if the greats of the science fiction fantasy world that you can think of off the top of your head or if you went, you know, to a random person on the street and asked them to name a science fiction writer, they wouldn't list off. my favorite My favorite female author, George R.R. Martin.
00:46:27
Speaker
Yes. And I love J.K.R. J.K.R., Jesus Christ.
00:46:33
Speaker
I love J.R.R. Tolkien. The woman. The famous. The famous lady. do yeah um Yeah. So there is a um panel at Worldcon, which is just, and and the panel description has been posted online, and it reads, um I'm going read the entirety of it because I think that it's necessary for context.
00:46:57
Speaker
The title. Strong Woman Lead does not equal LGBTQIA. It's in the culture DI section.
00:47:08
Speaker
um And it reads, have you ever walked into a bookshop and asked for books with strong women leads? Perhaps you've requested that love to be a major plot point.
00:47:19
Speaker
Has the staff excitedly passed you half a dozen books that felt good? Have a bit of a repeating theme. Here we ask the question, why do authors and bookshops assume the only way to have a strong woman lead is to make them gay with a woman love interest and prevent men characters from rising over the background?
00:47:44
Speaker
Isn't it possible to have a book with strong women and men characters in it and not have them fall in love?
00:47:57
Speaker
That's my dramatic reading, and that is how I assume author of that description wanted it to be presented. Apparently, they have pulled the description while they edited it due to feedback that it did not communicate what we intended.
00:48:11
Speaker
oh great.
00:48:13
Speaker
Interesting. so this may or may not be a panel at Worldcon. um The idea...
00:48:22
Speaker
That there's, what, too many sapphics? First of all, not enough, obviously, because I still don't have a wife. Just in general, in the world. But, like, what are you talking about?
00:48:33
Speaker
What are you talking about? Go. Go.
00:48:39
Speaker
Just go somewhere else. There are not too many sapphics anywhere. Except maybe Bushwick on a Saturday night. Equality feels like oppression if you've always been privileged.
00:48:55
Speaker
That feels like a good note to end on.
00:49:00
Speaker
And that's our episode. We're we're we're