Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
What is Romantasy? feat. Leslie René
31 Plays2 days ago
In our fourth episode of The Write Way of Life’s ~Romance Season~, Karis Rogerson had a conversation with Leslie René, adult fantasy author of the upcoming Romantasy Maggie and Arthur’s Magic Moment coming July 2026. They chatted about all things Romantasy including a great discussion about how to create a character wound and the third act breakup.
Find Leslie online. Be sure to check her out on Instagram and preorder Maggie and Arthur’s Magic Moment, out July 28, 2026.
The Write Way of Life is a craft-focused author interview podcast by Karis Rogerson & A.D Jolietta. Follow The Write Way of Life on Instagram or find us on our website. Follow Karis on Instagram and subscribe to her newsletter. Follow Adi on Instagram.
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:03
Speaker
The next step is to make a new one.
Introduction to Season 2 and Host Update
00:00:27
Speaker
Hello, hello, everyone, and welcome to a new episode of the Right Way of Life podcast. We are in season two, our romance-focused season, and I'm your host, Karis Rogerson. i am a writer, reader, and podcaster based in Brooklyn, New York.
00:00:43
Speaker
I'm actually here doing this intro solo today because unfortunately my co-host A.D. Joletta is not feeling too well. Let's all go ahead and send lots of good vibes Addy's way. They are genuinely amazing.
00:00:57
Speaker
this podcast would not exist without them and I am so grateful for all of their work, and just here to yap for a little bit before we dive into the rest of the episode.
00:01:08
Speaker
So let's see, we, I am ah sitting here on Saturday, 2025, two thousand and twenty five And it's finally fall weather outside, for which I'm so grateful. I love ah crisp air. i love a sweater weather. i love a candle that smells like burnt leaves, you know?
00:01:34
Speaker
Like, I love it. And i do not love what's happening in the world. um You may know this if you're listening in real time, and you will know this if you're listening in later time, obviously.
00:01:49
Speaker
But our...
Political Commentary and Social Movements
00:01:51
Speaker
The man who for some reason is in charge of this country is demolishing the White House. um Which is wild. Because, like, how is he getting away with this? Like, why are they letting him do that? Like, I... The White House, I don't really...
00:02:08
Speaker
I don't know. My thoughts on it are like, it's probably got bad vibes and I don't love imperialism and and what the American empire stands for, but also like shocking that the people who do love the American empire are just letting him do this. Yeah.
00:02:25
Speaker
does not bode well for other things he might be doing in the future. um Last weekend, though, we had the No Kings protests, which I think, oh God, was it like 7 million people showed up to across the country, which is a large amount of people to show up to protest. I think they said it's like 2% of the population. and Listen, that gives me hope. Like, if there's anything that's going to give me hope, it's the knowledge that there are people who are willing to go out on the streets and protest. It's the knowledge that a bunch of New Yorkers, like, intimidated ICE in the streets of New York this week and were like, actually, no, you can't be here and, like, you can't kidnap people off the streets.
00:03:10
Speaker
It's listening to podcasts like My Favorite Faded Mates podcast where they talked about... um and different things people can do. Um, it's seeing authors like Danica Nava setting up food pantry donation runs for their communities as SNAP benefits are running out due to the shutdown.
00:03:30
Speaker
It's just looking, looking around and looking outside of myself and And seeing that there are people who are willing to put their communities first and they're willing to fight back against authoritarianism. And, you know, I was talking to my my therapist yesterday about how scary things are.
00:03:48
Speaker
um And she reminded me that I'm not alone in this. um Literally, like, I've got friends and a ah community, but also um they're the people in the city that, like, I love New York because it's the kind of city where, you know, you sit on the subway, you don't make eye contact, but if someone comes and tries to stir up shit, you're...
00:04:09
Speaker
you're just gonna shut it down like together you know um so yeah that's just that's just how things are going um there's a lot of really shitty stuff going on in the world but also there are reasons to have hope and
00:04:33
Speaker
I'm taking that. I'm taking that with me as I go. um Really quick little update on my reading and writing. I just finished a book last night that was an ARC and I'm currently reading.
00:04:48
Speaker
What am I reading? I'm currently still reading A Crown of Ivy and Glass, which is part of Claire Legrand's Romanticist series. And I'm having just such a blast
Literary Updates and Guest Introduction
00:04:56
Speaker
with it. It's a romp for sure and it makes me want to sit down and write like a seven book epic fantasy series obviously I'll never do that because this brain bro it's not big enough for seven books in one series or maybe it is but not yet you know like that's a that's a future charis thing But speaking of writing, i and revising adult sapphic romance again.
00:05:21
Speaker
I'm hoping to be able to send it out on sub soon. And that's both really exciting and really kind of terrifying. So yeah, that's what's up.
00:05:34
Speaker
I am so excited for this episode today. it features um an incredible author whose debut comes out next July. Her name is Leslie Renee. Leslie is a personal friend of mine. We met in an online discord back in like 2021, 2022. She has been such a supportive friend she is such ah an amazing storyteller and I'm just so excited that you get to listen to her talk about romanticies.
00:05:59
Speaker
Her debut is Romanticie. It's called Maggie and Arthur's Magic Moment. Comes out July of 2026 and the cover reveal, you'll get this. The cover reveal is this Wednesday. So if you're listening to this on Monday or Tuesday, it's tomorrow.
00:06:12
Speaker
If you're listening to this after Wednesday, go trundle on over to Leslie's Instagram and take a look. Do a little pre-order. Buy the book. it's Her writing is just touched with with magic and sparkles and and it's gorgeous and beautiful and i can't wait to hold this book in my hands um that said i will read leslie's bio and then we'll just skedaddle on into the the rest of the episode uh-huh leslie renee she her is a virginia-based writer and editor during the day she is a health and science editor at night she writes fantasy novels with a bit of romance and romance novels with a generous helping of magic she has a lifelong love of languages and it is an experienced translation editor english to spanish and translator spanish to english
00:07:02
Speaker
Leslie loves to get lost in a good book, go to concerts, and stitch yarn and thread into something pretty. Her happy place is playing in the garden with her family. Let's dive in.
Challenges in Writing and Genre Nuances
00:07:15
Speaker
Hello again, listeners to The Right Way of Life podcast. This is Karis Rogerson. I am here with the one and only Leslie Renee, author of the upcoming Maggie and Arthur's Magic Moment. Why didn't my brain just short out on me? hi Leslie. How are you?
00:07:32
Speaker
Hi, I'm doing well. How are you? i am doing so well now that we're on this call. Yesterday, a piece of my ceiling fell down and it almost took me out, but it didn't, which is why we're here.
00:07:46
Speaker
so glad you're still okay.
00:07:49
Speaker
Me too. Yeah, how how are you feeling this fine Thursday? We're recording on a Thursday.
00:08:01
Speaker
It is Thursday. I'm i'm feeling pretty good. um like Work has been busy. Boo. I just turned in copy edits.
00:08:13
Speaker
That's so exciting. It's exciting. Oh my gosh. Yay. Okay, speaking of copy edits for your upcoming romanticy, let's talk all things romanticy.
00:08:27
Speaker
So my first question, we're just gonna be very basic. Can you define at least the best of your ability romanticy? Like I know it's a fraught topic and everyone you ask has a different opinion.
00:08:41
Speaker
And so maybe also touch on like romantic fantasy and fantasy romance. and romanticy and like where do you fall on the like fantasy romance romanticy scale how many times can i say those words until they lose meaning that's a good question thank you for asking um because we're gonna be working that out together in real time ah incredible ah It is a very fraught discussion for a lot of different reasons, I think, which we we can go into later.
00:09:16
Speaker
um But my personal definition is of a romantic scene is a story that gives equal weight to a fantasy plotline And a romantic plotline.
00:09:31
Speaker
So they're going to follow the genre conventions of both fantasy and romance. So it is like an equal mashup. An equal mashup. Like a marriage of peers.
00:09:44
Speaker
Yes. And I think because it is that kind of mashup, there are stories that fall completely. somewhere on the spectrum of more fantasy than romance and more romance than fantasy.
00:10:02
Speaker
And I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes in because as a mashup, there just naturally going to be stories that don't perfectly hit that fifty fifty mark. um But think the goal for a romanticy is equally um to distinguish from other types of books that have a fantasy with a strong romantic subplot.
00:10:32
Speaker
Then we also run into all of these other categories that are distinct for some people, the same for other people. gets very sticky and messy. We need like a publishing cheat sheet. We need for someone in publishing to be like, here's what all the terms mean and everyone just go with it.
00:10:52
Speaker
but That would require everyone in publishing to agree. No, I just pick one spokesperson. Somebody. I don't know who that's going to be. Somebody take the fall, take the responsibility, take on the mantle of head publishing guru, like information holder. Yeah,
00:11:14
Speaker
I was thinking about this recently because I am wondering what your thoughts are on like, can you have a contemporary romanticy or is it um like a contemporary romance with some fantasy elements?
00:11:28
Speaker
Well, that dovetails perfectly into what is your book, Leslie? What is Maggie and Arthur's magic moment? um Because technically, I have in the past described my book as a contemporary romanticy.
00:11:44
Speaker
And part of that is because it takes place in a second world with a full magic system. But they have cars and cell phones and the trappings of contemporary modern life. yeah um I've also had some people say that they feel like it falls more under the paranormal umbrella, which we haven't even discussed.
00:12:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. yeah um and that may be because it has some monsters in it and some other elements like that um but yeah i mean when you add in paranormal too which to me it doesn't quite fit into paranormal because it is second world it's not our human world um But that that's a whole other genre on its own.
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's so wild to me. um i i think paranormal fantasy is like my, or paranormal romance is like my favorite flavor of it. And so I'm like, just call it a romanticy, but I know that you can't because that's a different thing. I saw that on threads.
00:12:47
Speaker
So I'm not saying it's the same. I'm just saying I want it to be.
00:12:52
Speaker
And i think I think for me, like I know books really widely. i will read any genre. And so well, I just kind of lost my train of thought there for a second, but...
00:13:08
Speaker
habit I am happy with all of them, right? Like, I am happy with I pick up a book and, you know, it's labeled a romanticcy, but there are contemporary elements of it. Maybe it's more paranormal. Like, I'm i'm not necessarily going to be disappointed by that.
00:13:21
Speaker
But I do think that where some of this confusion around genre and these genre mashups happen are... We're really just trying to convey to the reader what genre conventions to expect.
00:13:35
Speaker
That's where things get confusing because people hear the term romanticcy and expect different things. um Some people are expecting happily ever after and other people are not, you know, which is a a much very necessary um convention of a regular romance. Right. Mm hmm.
00:13:57
Speaker
um Some people are thrown off by a lot of word world building in a romanticity because they want more of the focus on the romance. So it it does get a little tricky there when as writers, we are just trying to convey which genre expectations you can correctly expect from the book.
00:14:18
Speaker
Here's the thing. This is why I should be the spokesperson for publishing. Here's my pitch. Are you ready for it? Let's go. I, for some reason, like I was watching like BookTube for, I've been watching BookTube for like 10 years.
00:14:32
Speaker
Lord knows why. Um, but there, there, I, that's how I learned the term fantasy romance, which I took to be a romance in a fantasy world or with fantasy trappings.
00:14:45
Speaker
And then there's romantic fantasy, which I have always taken to be a fantasy that has like a romantic subplot, but not necessarily like a genre romance. Right? Like the romance could be tragic or it could be happily ever after. And then romanticity came about and I was like, okay, well, I guess if I'm going to make it fit in my brain with the other two, that's like the equal mashup.
00:15:04
Speaker
So it's like fantasy romance, slightly more romance. um ah Romantic fantasy, slightly more fantasy. Romantic fantasy, equal marriage of the two. See?
00:15:15
Speaker
Yeah. i think i think that makes sense. And I'm going to email some editors and make sure that they know that too. No, just kidding. Yeah. i Those are kind of the genre definitions that i work off of too. And then I, you know, if I pick up a romanticy, i am expecting equal equal weight. If I pick up something that is described as a Now I've completely lost what each one means, which is...
00:15:41
Speaker
It's too many of the same words. So many same words. um But anyway, it is it's it's challenging. And um do think genre mashups are really having a moment, which I love mostly because I love romance. And i love stories that take romance seriously. And I i love many of my novels. Like the novels I read have romance in them. So I personally really enjoy this genre mashup popularity.
00:16:11
Speaker
you're on yeah yeah and i think it's so interesting like this is a craft podcast not a theory of genre podcast but i do think we need to discuss like what the genre is before we can talk about like how to write it and i think it like it makes sense that for the purposes of this discussion like listeners may have a different definition romantic romantic fantasy or fantasy romance but for the purposes of this discussion you and i are aligned and so this is the like Um, oh, there's such a perfect word that I just can't think of.
00:16:42
Speaker
But like, this is the viewpoint, like the people that we're looking through at the romantic. Why did I have to say people? Um, there we go. ah We did it.
00:16:53
Speaker
Um, so I would love to know, like, what do you think are elements like a romantic? or wait, no, like, yeah, what are some key elements that you like to see
Tropes and Excitement in Romanticy
00:17:04
Speaker
in romantic? Yeah.
00:17:05
Speaker
So, like, we're not going to say, like, every romantic he has to have because I don't think anyone can make that sort of blanket statement. But, like, when you're opening up a romantic, what's going to make your brain so happy?
00:17:19
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. um What a good question. for me... i think for me I really love some of those little nods to two tropes, right? Like to the nods to the the only one bed. Like the things that have... The tropes that have really defined not just romanticity, but romance in general. um And I just think like if you...
00:17:49
Speaker
one of One of my joys about reading romance and writing romance um and also romanticity in general is that if you can present a well-loved trope that has been done thousand times and still make me like giggle and kick my feet, well that to me is just...
00:18:14
Speaker
ah That is why I love reading those books. Yeah. And that's why I can keep reading like 10 books in a row that have like only one bed or like knife to throat or something. And every single time, like if it's done well, I'm going to be delighted and intrigued and possibly even surprised every time. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I and if you can play with those tropes and and and do it a slightly different way and that feels fresh like that, that is just that's even better. Like that's just going to make me so excited.
00:18:43
Speaker
Yes, so that is... That's a big thing for me, reading those tropes. um Anything else for me... i i am a reader who loves someone who really... Like, I really do like it when the fantasy is taken seriously.
00:19:03
Speaker
I am a fan like i'm a fantasy reader reader. read... and a romance reader like i read fantasy books that don't have romance and romances that don't have fantasy so I want people who are doing the genre mashups to actually give them that equal weight and so I do like my romanticies to have a little heft to their magic systems I like the magic systems to have logic um I like that part of it to feel really fulfilling too mm-hmm
00:19:39
Speaker
Are you, like, in your regular fantasy reading, do you tend to gravitate more towards, like, hard or, like, um... Not hard, but like, like rules based. Like the, the, okay.
00:19:53
Speaker
I can't think of the right words and I just smacked my microphone. But, but like when I am writing my contemporary fantasy, I start out and I'm like, it's just like there's magic and it's cause there's magic. And then halfway through the book, I'm like, and then there's this rule and then there's the other rule and you have to do this if you want to activate the magic. And I'm like, oh,
00:20:12
Speaker
I just like rules apparently. so like how systematic, how system based you like your magic in your fantasies? It doesn't have to be a system based in the sense that it doesn't have, like, I don't have to know all of the rules, but the characters have to know all of the rules, right?
00:20:33
Speaker
Like I don't need every little detail, especially you know Sometimes I don't necessarily want every little detail of how it works, but I want it to feel like a real thing. I don't know how physics works, but if I saw something that defied the laws of physics outside my window, would be like, whoa. that ah If only I could sing, this would be a great moment to break into defying gravity.
00:20:59
Speaker
But alas, I do care about our listeners' ears. um I also should know everything so yeah I I get that where it's like you want the author or not even the author but you want to feel like there a logic you don't need to know the logic you just want to know that like it exists it exists somebody's thought about it yeah um and and also I think It's always good to have your early readers who ask you why. Like, ah okay, well, why?
00:21:35
Speaker
Why did... So annoying. So good. You've made this happen. You've made this rule, but why? Mm-hmm. why I remember in the early days of writing Maggie and Arthur, um which to give just a really quick rundown of the plot, there are two professors at a magical university and one of them has an accident in his alchemy lab that causes a destructive magic to fall over the school and the magic is called a pall.
00:22:09
Speaker
And when I first set out writing it, I had very early readers asking me lots of questions about how the Paul worked and feeling like, I don't know yet.
00:22:24
Speaker
Um, and so just kind of slowly building, even if all of the details of how the magic interacts with the physical world didn't make it into the book, uh,
00:22:39
Speaker
I at least had worked that out and knew and it fed into how the characters solve the problem and how they do magic throughout the book.
00:22:51
Speaker
I think that is such a great... evergreen cross-genre like craft tip is like why okay like why does the magic work this way why does your character want to get with their love interest why is the antagonist the other big one when you're writing a romance is like well why don't they just kiss right yeah like there's got to be a reason otherwise it's like oh we met you were hot i was hot we kissed Right.
00:23:18
Speaker
And then the book ended two pages later.
00:23:23
Speaker
That's always hard for me because I'm like, I want, I think the hardest rule I've ever heard was someone being like, you have to put your characters through like the hardest thing possible, like the worst thing for them to imagine. And I was like, yeah, I'm really bad at that because I like my characters.
00:23:36
Speaker
yeah and i I see myself in them and like I wouldn't want to go through something really hard this reminds me of the summer I turned pretty which I haven't read or watched I'm sorry okay well just for our listeners season three episode eight I watched it last night and I thought to myself oh yeah that's the definition of like put your character through hell like make it the worst it could be just if it could happen in an easier way don't do it that way make it harder yeah what could What will bring your character of the most pain in the third act, Dark Knight of the Soul?
00:24:09
Speaker
I was writing my breakup scene for my adult romance that I've been working on. And I was like, oh my god. It's like draft four. And I'm rewriting the breakup scene for the fourth time.
00:24:20
Speaker
And I was like, holy crap. This is hurting my feelings a little bit. like they're like They're hurting each other. and i'm crying.
00:24:30
Speaker
I know i one of the things that I worked with my editor on was um changing some of the breakup scene and making kind of the impetus for their breakup and why they ultimately decided to split related back to Maggie's wound And that was so hard because it meant that Arthur had to do something mean.
Writing Difficulties and Genre Evolution
00:25:00
Speaker
Not an intentional issue. He's thoughtless. He doesn't think. um And then Maggie says mean things to him. And ugh.
00:25:13
Speaker
yeah i think what i need to work on in this round of my revision is like make the love interest do something to make the main character because it's single pov and i'm like the love interest is just like perfect and i need to make her her the main character so that the main character's retaliation makes sense yeah i should consider um okay this is my favorite question Leslie.
00:25:40
Speaker
Yes. How do you write a good romantic? Oh, I love this question. um Well, hopefully the one I have written is good. think it depends on i think it depends on the type of romanticy you are writing and which of the genre conventions you are going to follow.
00:26:05
Speaker
But in the case of Maggie and Arthur, what I did was i laid out the beats of a hero's journey over the beats of a romance.
00:26:19
Speaker
I put them side by side and the things that had to happen in the novel had to follow the both beat structures. So every scene had to serve both the fantasy plot and the romance plot.
00:26:36
Speaker
um And that was, then I had a novel. So easy. oh my God. well easy um And I think for me, like I'm a very You know, Maggie and Arthur's Magic Moment is not the first book I've written.
00:26:54
Speaker
And um some of my earlier work, like, the characters were there. The plot was there.
00:27:06
Speaker
But the character arcs and the plot arc weren't always following the same path. Interesting. Say more. And, yeah, so, I mean, so, like, you know, the characters felt full and...
00:27:19
Speaker
fleshed out and real the fantasy plot felt full and it made sense but putting them together like it didn't always make sense why characters were doing certain things along the plot to make it happen Okay.
00:27:39
Speaker
And so in some of my earlier work, I had to spend a lot of time going back and fixing that. So not only is the character helping move the plot along, but they're doing it in a way that serves this whole person that I've created.
00:27:56
Speaker
um they're acting in a way that makes sense for their, who they are. um They're acting in a way that the audience can expect. And if it's not in a way that the audience expects, there's a reason for it um that will be revealed later or, you know, is because of something we don't know about the character or whatever it might be.
00:28:18
Speaker
um And so that experience of having to go back and fix those things has made me
00:28:27
Speaker
Start with the character. Okay. And match, you know, like if I know kind of the basics of what's going to happen in the plot, I have to also have a character arc that's going to follow that plot and make it happen.
00:28:45
Speaker
That is so interesting because I don't know if this is like something that other people do, but for some reason in my mind, I have this kind of like dichotomy um between like plot forward and character forward books.
00:28:57
Speaker
And I tend to think of fantasies as being a more plot forward sort of genre, which don't know if that's true or not. Don't know if it holds for every subgenre fantasy, but like you do need a a good strong plot.
00:29:11
Speaker
Like, you can't just have world building in characters. You need, like, a nice plot to follow. don't know. Maybe you can just have much to consider. But I am thinking about this and I was like, it's so fascinating to hear, like, it can still be, like, a plotty book, but the character is so key.
00:29:31
Speaker
And so, like, character drives plot, plot drives character. Like, they're I think that the dichotomy itself is is actually wrong and, like, the two, you know, ne'er shall part or whatever, like, as the setting goes.
00:29:48
Speaker
Well, and I think that is that certainly happens in a romantic, right? Because you are, i think there are definitely fantasy novels that are very plot forward.
00:30:00
Speaker
There are fantasy novels that are very character driven. um But I think the nature of a romantic, because so much of it is hinges on believing that romance it just naturally is going to be a more character driven story.
00:30:17
Speaker
And I just tend to write romanticy or fantasy with most like large romance subplots, whatever one of the two we decided that was.
00:30:33
Speaker
ah And I don't know. i'm not a hundred percent sure which blog post I found this on or where i mean it's not it's not rocket science there are plenty of people who have come up with different ways of finding this character um ah finding the character arc and and and finding the internal struggle of your character but I was doing a lot of like those really long character sheets where you put down every single thing About a character and and i you um I am somewhat of a ah a planter, if you will.
00:31:10
Speaker
I'd like to, which is a plotter and a pantser.
00:31:15
Speaker
I have a lot of the plot figured out before I start writing. But not all it. And I don't like to have all of it figured out. I like to find things. Learn things as I go. um But what I have found is.
00:31:29
Speaker
the like The thing that really unlocked character for me. um Was not only like that want and the need. And those sorts of things.
00:31:40
Speaker
um But really figuring out how their wound. Affects their inner struggle. And then how that affects the thing that they need to learn by the end of it.
00:31:52
Speaker
um And once again, I didn't invent that. ah Those are just the five categories but I have been using to really nail down that character arc for at least the two main characters.
00:32:08
Speaker
I don't think that on this podcast we have, well, maybe we haven't. I just simply forgot and I'm going to be so embarrassed. Can you say more about the character wound and how that comes into play, like with the plot?
00:32:24
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, i I, I think that's such a huge part of, hold on, we're going to get interrupted here.
00:32:37
Speaker
Where were we? The wound. The wound. Um...
00:32:42
Speaker
where were we the wound the wound um For me, this is really just a huge part of figuring out the answer to that question of, like, why they why they can't be together.
00:32:57
Speaker
At least in a romance, I think i think the wound really informs the, like, well, why don't these two people who seem to really like each other just get together? Yeah.
00:33:08
Speaker
And it also is going to inform that breakup. It's going to inform. I've also heard people describe it as the lie they tell themselves. um Or like the misbelief kind of thing. The misbelief, yes. That framing of it doesn't always work for me. And that's kind of why I approach it as a wound. Or, you know, it's it's just the thing that... Right. Because it can be like a childhood trauma. Or it can be like...
00:33:39
Speaker
like I internalize the belief that like I don't matter. And so I cannot believe my love interest when they tell me that they like me because like I haven't, I haven't earned it yet.
00:33:51
Speaker
You know, um, that feels like I just, that feels like I was just very vulnerable. I was talking about my book, not myself, although it's true for both. Um, but that's what like, and as like a word of,
00:34:04
Speaker
um something like if you're listening and you're like oh my god I'm on draft like two or three or one and I don't know my character's wound like I'm on draft five and I just am now figuring it out like think I had like an epiphany reading my draft four readers notes and was like oh my gosh yes this is what this is this is the thing that has been plaguing my character for four drafts yeah now I know what it is and i And I think that's true of anything that you plot out at the beginning.
00:34:34
Speaker
You can get through writing one, two drafts and realize maybe you were wrong. And and maybe this, you know, this is the thing that's really driving yeah this character's misbelief.
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah. Or maybe you'd been, like, acting on it. Like, the all the, like, reactions were there, but you hadn't, like... figured out how to like you didn't have the words for what it was does that make sense what i'm saying yeah like sometimes so much of writing can be like instinctive and and and like just whatever comes out and then i think the job of revision is to come back and intentionalize everything so intentionalize great word very dictionary um let's okay
00:35:21
Speaker
What do you know? Like, how much can you tell us about the quote unquote, like history of romanticcy? Right. Like, I'm not saying give me like a breakdown from, you know, the eighteen hundred through now, but like, can you just give me a bit of the like high level sort of and when did, because the term is new, right? Like we weren't, so we weren't calling things romantic season 2018. Yeah, no, I mean, I think romanticcy
00:35:49
Speaker
That's exactly what I was going to say, is that if the term romanticy is new, but the concept of a romanticy is not new. um And the concept of combining fantasy and romance, whether that's with a ah strong B plot or as a more, you know, integral part of the plot, that is certainly not new.
00:36:12
Speaker
I think what we think of as romanticity now for a long time was shelved primarily in the romance space. um So I think there probably is an argument to be made that this idea that romanticity is new, it's something that we've come up with.
00:36:32
Speaker
That to me feels a little bit like people looking down on romance as a genre. Interesting. Interesting. um because, you know, certainly paranormal and romance with fantasy elements, those have existed in the romance space for a very, very, very long time.
00:36:57
Speaker
um So this idea that we have to make a whole new genre for it,
00:37:07
Speaker
you know To make it like palatable for people who wouldn't pick up like a contemporary or historical romance. Right. I got you. And I think also...
00:37:21
Speaker
You know, men have also been writing fantasies with romantic subplots before in the past. But there has never been a call to make that a separate genre either. Yeah.
00:37:35
Speaker
And though I do have at least one example of a recent romanticity that was written by a man, um i don't think many books by men are being called romanticies. And so it feels also like a way to kind of section off.
00:37:54
Speaker
romanticy from fantasy as well. um I say this all as someone who proudly calls her book a romanticy and in general doesn't have a problem with the term.
00:38:07
Speaker
um But I think in genre spaces, that conversation is a little bit more fraught. And I think it's totally valid to say, like, listen, we're here now. We have the term.
00:38:22
Speaker
We're going to use it. But also question why it came up to begin with. Right. You know, like, OK, so like now we have this term, but did it did we need it? Did we need it?
00:38:33
Speaker
And i I do think that a more generous read of why we have the term is because of people truly seeking out ah genre, like truly seeking out books that are going to fulfill the genre conventions they are looking for.
00:38:50
Speaker
Right. So like oh, I read this great series. I want another one that's just like it.
00:38:58
Speaker
i I think that that's also part of it. Like all of these things are happening together, right? It's and people seeking out similar books. It's people maybe not being knowledgeable of what has been published in the past and not knowing that it's not a new thing.
00:39:18
Speaker
it It's people maybe going, oh,
00:39:23
Speaker
not a big romance reader, but I love romanticity. You know, I think there's just a lot of things happening there. Fair. Now... Here's the thing about romanticcy. no i can't believe but I didn't have this on my original list of questions and it just like came to me and like a lightning bolt of inspiration. And I was like, oh my God, we can't not talk about this because when you read about romanticcy, like when the New York Times covers it, what
Diversity and Spice in Romanticy
00:39:49
Speaker
are they talking about? They're talking about fourth wing and they're talking about,
00:39:54
Speaker
um other popular romanticies that I cannot think of right now and they're talking about spice and so my question to you is does a romanticy like does it require open door steamy spicy scenes no thank you um no period we can move on um I think just like romance um There are all flavors of romanticcy. There's closed door romanticcy. There's open door romanticcy. There's high heat romanticcy. There's erotic romanticcy. There's erotic um ah romanticcy. There is, I mean...
00:40:33
Speaker
There is anything you could want. um But romanticity is also a genre that is in other age groups as well. I mean, there's YA romanticity, there's middle grade romanticity.
00:40:49
Speaker
um So I think that saying as a genre, it requires open door scenes is simply untrue. it it just doesn't. um And there's plenty of romanticity that but does not.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah, and I think part of me wonders if, like, because I've definitely, I've read, you know, culture, cultural, like, reported pieces on, like, whoa, fantasy is sexy now. The women want the fairy porn. Acatar, that's the one I forgot with Fourth Wing. Anyway, um don't come for me searching those things.
00:41:28
Speaker
But I wonder if, like, part of the reason it has gained... romanticy as a term has gained like traction and notoriety is because well I don't know because it's not like it's not like it had never been done before was like fantasy with spice but it it does feel like a lot of people are like spice in my fantasy um and they're like that's notable and it's like well I mean it or is it just that you weren't aware of the fact that it existed until it suddenly reached like a fever pitch of popularity
00:42:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's that. And i I mean, like, truly, these books have existed for forever. And they they just have been shelved in other places. Yeah. um Whether, you know, primarily in the romance section, I think. um eight i It's, yeah, it's not a new thing. Yeah.
00:42:22
Speaker
yeah It, you know, I had more of a thought to that. But
00:42:31
Speaker
Okay, let's get into some fun questions.
Favorite Books and Recommendations
00:42:37
Speaker
Which, what accent was that? Who pronounces questions like that? Literally no language on earth. Just me. I'm going to make it a thing now. I'm going to be like, I have some questions for you.
00:42:50
Speaker
um Who am I? Why am I doing this? what or who What is your favorite romance romanticism? Or one of your favorites?
00:43:01
Speaker
Favorite ships. Do mean like specific characters? Yeah. Oh my God. okay. here i ok I am a reader who like, I don't remember people's names.
00:43:13
Speaker
Okay. Well, okay. Then what about like books that have like ships that you would go down with?
00:43:22
Speaker
Wow. You said, have I ever read a book? ever i henry What is a ship? Who are people? literally well i'm too old for no i'm not too old for the road but um my god can i think about it for a second yeah in the meantime i'm also gonna ask you to just like recommend some romanticies so if you have any of those like top of mind yeah i definitely have recommendations for you okay um but for some reason i mean to be perfectly honest with you
00:43:58
Speaker
I've never really, like, identified with the word ship. And I think in a role in a romance, too, like, because it is...
00:44:10
Speaker
like we know like like these characters are getting together right that's canon so yeah so yeah well then do you have like what about heroes like individual heroes or heroines that like stand out to you as like i read um for some reason the only book that i can think of right now that's romanicy is katie roberts um on on dark waters and i'm like i love those characters individually but also as a couple yes um a mood go um okay i'm pulling i'm literally pulling up my goodreads right now because like have i ever a read a book um however i do have an answer to this question i recently read wooing the witch queen by stephanie burgess really i am so wholly obsessed with both of the main characters in that book
00:45:03
Speaker
um i love them the the the main character is a witch queen obviously and and does she get wooed she does get wooed uh which by the way i love that title so much um she so she's a witch queen she has this like reputation for being like ruthless and like just in charge of her kingdom and and you know a rival kingdoms prince
00:45:36
Speaker
ends up in her kingdom um and he is hiding his identity and starts working in her library and he is like bookish and like soft and all he wants is to be loved and all he wants is someone to see through her heart exterior.
00:45:57
Speaker
oh um i and they're supposed to be enemies obviously um and i just truly loved everything about that um i personally love a male main character who was a little bit pitiful and like you know yeah i and
00:46:21
Speaker
Some romantic readers may not totally agree with me on this, but I really personally don't vibe with the like gender essentialism that often comes up in romantic with like the very strong men with the very small girls, women.
00:46:42
Speaker
And like every character is the most beautiful character who's ever existed. And like sometimes, you know, like sometimes I do like to fall, like just read a book like that. Sure.
00:46:55
Speaker
But for me, it's not that's not what I'm looking for. um And I love romanticies that play with those tropes and um do something different.
00:47:07
Speaker
um And, I mean, what is better than a man who's, like, a little bit pathetic for his woman? Right, right. Like, head over heels.
00:47:19
Speaker
Like, simp hours. Let's go. Yes, that is what I am looking for. i all the time and and so wooing the witch queen does that so well
00:47:37
Speaker
nice um so i guess i ship them um but A lot of my recommendations are books that kind of defy some of those gender norms that come up in Romanticy a lot.
00:47:55
Speaker
Just, um, why don't you let us know, like, two to three Romantices that you're like, people need to read these. Yeah. Um, so... wooing the witch queen for sure i think for me the one like my book would not exist without this book um and that is paladin's grace by t king for sure um for so many reasons but i think partially like one of the reasons is because the characters are a little older okay which i love i love that you know we're we're meeting these characters when they're already really
00:48:36
Speaker
um like they they're really firm in their own identities. They know who they are. And they're still looking for that person that completes them. They're not in their tip-top physical shape, right? like Like the main male character is ah an older paladin who hey um you know, he's got aches and pains, if I remember correctly.
00:48:57
Speaker
um But I just, I love that book so much. And it really was the book that that showed me this one and one other one that I'll get to in a second but it's the book that kind of showed me that romanticcy could be something different it didn't have to be the fae story although I love those it didn't have to be these perfect you know people who look perfect it didn't like it could be real people in a fantasy setting having a romance right yeah um and i just loved that so much and that book for me it was such a huge influence and um on Maggie and Arthur and just on my writing in general
00:49:46
Speaker
um i think another one that really just was like oh okay i can i can be weird um which is the undertaking of heart and mercy by megan bannon so that one for me was like oh like we can just kind of we can make things up let's make some things up so Let's go.
00:50:08
Speaker
um And so i I just really loved that the risks that she took with that story and, um you know, it kind of it drops you in this world that you don't really know anything about that, you know, some things are explained and some things aren't.
00:50:24
Speaker
And i I just really loved that. And um Weird is such a compliment for me. So yeah I hope I'm stating that way. um I love that book so, so much.
00:50:37
Speaker
um And I think for me, when I was starting, you know, I've been a writer for a very long time, but I really I took a break from it also for a long time. And when I came back to it, it was because, um you know, for a long time, I was trying to write literary fiction and poetry and and and heavy things.
00:50:59
Speaker
And when we all the world shut down during the pandemic and I was home with my two year old, I couldn't really do anything except read books I had already read and play Zelda.
00:51:17
Speaker
ah And the books that I had already read that I was able to focus on were... like romantisy from when I was a kid are romance novels and fantasy romance from that were that I mostly read like in the 90s yeah um and then of like Zelda especially Breath of the Wild really has like a huge influence on on me and my writing too ah and and so
00:51:48
Speaker
it was really clarifying for me that in kind of one of the hardest experiences for me, which like if you, for other people who had toddlers during the pandemic, the pandemic is hard, was hard for everybody, is hard for everybody.
00:52:03
Speaker
um But if you were suddenly home with a toddler and and trying to like navigate that and also terrified for them and the world that they were going to grow up in and also still have a job because i was fortunate enough to continue to have my day job.
00:52:20
Speaker
and um It was it was a hard time. And the thing that I turned to were the stories that I loved. um And so why wouldn't I write the stories I loved?
00:52:32
Speaker
Absolutely. i Looking back on it, it's so obvious. But at the time, it really was a revelation. um And so, long story short, um like Robin McKinley um books for me were...
00:52:50
Speaker
ah such an influence um I loved those books a kid I didn't read Howl's Moving Castle as a kid but it was um the movie and the book are stories that are really dear to me um and that is that's another man who's pitiful oh I love Howl both versions of him because he is very different in the book ok compared to the movie and I love both but both versions are pitiful in their own way um Excellent.
00:53:21
Speaker
And I love both of them. um But that was another story I turned to during that time. um So those are some of my recommendations, but there are also a few others. If you don't mind, can i just like list them?
Influences and Writing Style
00:53:37
Speaker
Oh. So there are a few forthcoming books that I think are really great. um Our Vicious Oaths by Annie Davenport. So good. I'm in the middle of it right now and I am literally just like, when can I get back to you? Let's wrap this up, Karis.
00:53:52
Speaker
Back to reading. I gotta read about those. When... You know, like the the opening of that book is is so good. And then you you have these two characters and you're like, oh, you're not quite sure how their stories are going to intersect. And when it happens, you're just like, yes. Like, amazing.
00:54:16
Speaker
um And that one, and that one just to prepare readers, it is described as a dark romanticism. So yes, so a there are some heavier themes in that one.
00:54:28
Speaker
ah But I am really enjoying it. um There is also Deathbringer. Oh, and and Our Vicious Oath is coming in October. And then um Deathbringer by Sonia Tagliareni.
00:54:42
Speaker
That one is coming in May of next year. And um also very good. um i really love the world and the romance there. They're bound together by a situation out of their control, ah which is just a great trope.
00:55:00
Speaker
We love a little bit of forced proximity. yeah i i love forced proximity, which is clear because in Maggie and Arthur's magic moment, they are forced to share an office together. Oh.
00:55:11
Speaker
So, um yeah, those are those are some that I've really... loved reading lately and then also if you are looking for which are vicious oaths is also fey romanticy but if you want another fey romanticy I really liked Servant of Earth by Sarah Hawley and then i also if you like the um like I'll find you in any timeline story i really liked The Emperor and the and the Endless Palace by Justinian Wong okay um
00:55:45
Speaker
So yeah. And then there are so many more, like I'm not an expert. Take it back. I'm not an expert. There are so many that like classic romanticism that I haven't read yet and I can't wait to read them. Yeah. um Yeah. It is a, a vast and exciting genre that has.
00:56:07
Speaker
There's so much. A history. Yeah. There, there's so much out there. And I think, um you know, because I kind of, i
00:56:16
Speaker
I came to the adult romanticies later um after I took a little break. You know, was reading more fantasy and more literary fiction. And and so I kind of like the adult side of it a little bit later.
00:56:31
Speaker
and so I'm just how lucky am i that I still get to read all those books for the first time? Yeah. Yeah.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:56:38
Speaker
yeah all right leslie thank you so much for coming on the right way of life can you let our listeners know where they can find you when your book comes out what they can be looking out for yes um so maggie and arthur's magic moment comes out in july 2026 please remember me um so please remember me
00:57:02
Speaker
When it comes out in one year. A little less than a year. um And then if you want to follow me on social media, on Instagram and threads, I am Leslie Should Be Writing.
00:57:18
Speaker
And then everywhere else I am by Leslie Renee, which is R-E-N-E. And my website is ileslyrenee.com. Perfect.
00:57:29
Speaker
We will sprinkle all that in the show notes as well so you can just like click and go. um And thank you again for coming. It was such a pleasure to chat all things Romanticy with you.
00:57:40
Speaker
Thank you for having me. This was so nice. And there you have it. That's our episode Romanticy. Hey, while I'm the only one in this little recording room right now, I would like to give another shout out my co-host and the producer of this podcast, Addie.
00:57:56
Speaker
Addie... You're the best and I'm so grateful for you. And I could not do this without you. And therefore, i would like to remind everyone that sometimes these podcasts, this podcast does cost money. and um...
00:58:14
Speaker
If you would like to help defray these costs, we do have a Kofi, coffee, Kofi. You can send a little couple dollars over and that would be amazing. And if you can't do that, that's okay. We still love you. I mean, I can't donate anywhere and I still...
00:58:32
Speaker
and loved by people. um So yeah, i hope that you will all go follow Leslie. Her Instagram and other links will be in the show notes in the podcasting app.
00:58:46
Speaker
She's also on, she's on Instagram. Her cover reveal will be this upcoming Wednesday, which is October 29th. You can find it on her Instagram. You can go ahead once that's live, you can go ahead And pre-order Maggie and Arthur's Magic Moment, which is going to be such a stunning book. I just can't wait for it.
00:59:06
Speaker
And um feel free to drop a comment on Instagram. Feel free to... leave us a review on Spotify or not Spotify. Leave us a review on Apple podcasts.
00:59:18
Speaker
You can um send us an email, the right way of life pod at gmail.com. You can find us on our website. Just engage with us. We really do want this to be not just a,
00:59:32
Speaker
a podium, but like a circle, you know, like not just us getting up on a soapbox and being like, blah, blah, blah, but like you interacting with us and, and giving us feedback and us sort of,
00:59:45
Speaker
creating these episodes based on that. So we'd love to hear from you. We'd love it if you would share us with your friends and your family, your writers and your readers. And that's all.
00:59:57
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed this episode. or We'll see you for the next one. Bye! And that was our show. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Right Way of Life.
01:00:08
Speaker
This show is brought to you by hosts Karis Rogerson and A.D. Joletta and morally supported by Alex Abraham. Find us on socials at The Right Way of Life and leave us a message or a comment telling us what you thought of today's episode.
01:00:21
Speaker
Stay safe, write great things, and always remember to live life the right way.