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"What is Character?" featuring Kamilah Cole - Episode 9 - Season One - The Write Way of Life
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In this week’s episode, Karis chats with Kamilah Cole, Lodestar (Hugo) Award finalist and author YA Fantasy So Let Them Burn. They discussed how to write engaging characters from a technical standpoint, but also dove into ways to incorporate character archetypes without falling into stereotype.
Find Kamilah Cole online.
Check out Kamilah's books.
Follow the podcast on Instagram or on our website.
Follow Karis on Instagram.
Follow Adi on Instagram.
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts
00:00:15
Speaker
hello Hello, My name is Karis Rogerson. I'm one of your co-hosts here at The Right Way of Life podcast. And I am here today joined by other co-host. Do you want to introduce yourself, Addy?
00:00:28
Speaker
Yeah, I am A.D. Giletta, or you can call me Addy. I just stumbled over my pen name, but that's fine. We've all been there.
00:00:38
Speaker
um Yeah, so we are two authors and podcasters, and we are here today to intro this episode, which is, if you're keeping count at home, this is episode number nine.
00:00:50
Speaker
We are chugging along in our first season. I'm loving it. um It is currently Saturday, May 31st, which unfortunately for me means that birth month is coming to an end.
00:01:03
Speaker
um But excitingly for me means that it's almost Pride Month. So the celebrations, they just keep rolling. You know, two months, baby. Two months for Karis. There we go.
00:01:14
Speaker
I mean, I feel like as a queer person, Pride Month is also your birthday month. Exactly. It's coming, right? It's a rebirth. Pride Month is your rebirth month.
00:01:24
Speaker
And then I also get September because that's when I first came out on Twitter. Yes. oh I get a lot of months just for being gay. Really?
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, as
Life Updates & Personal Interests
00:01:36
Speaker
it should be. i am in my home in Brooklyn. Addy, where are you? um I am in ah Milwaukee, the Midwest. I am dog sitting, though.
00:01:47
Speaker
It's fun. I love dog sitting. You do it a lot, don't you? do. Because here's the thing. I can't have pets at my apartment. And also, my lifestyle...
00:02:01
Speaker
does not allow pets except in very specific circumstances right gotcha mean because i work in opera and theater between shows when we have like lulls in the time absolutely can handle pets but there's like a good i don't know 12 to 13 weeks of the year that my life does not support pets you know what you could get like a bird or a fish
00:02:29
Speaker
Those aren't real pets, though. You should get a cat. Okay, I'm not going to say that they're not real pets. They're just not the pets that I want. You want a big dog.
00:02:40
Speaker
I want a big dog. Yeah, you're giving big dog energy. want a musty I want honestly I'd like a cat. I think I like cats. I would like a cat. I'd like a man.
00:02:52
Speaker
ah but But again I don't have the lifestyle for man. Coon or like a cat. Maybe even a black cat. I love a black cat. Yes. But a big a big dog. I'm a big dog person. you sure are.
00:03:04
Speaker
ah My parents have two big dogs and they're my they're they're my dogs. I monitor them from afar. I'll like text my mother and be like, what did they do today? Are they getting their eyes? That's adorable.
00:03:16
Speaker
They're shots. What are their dreams? They're shots. I'm absolutely parenting them from afar. My mom and dad are like, we've had many dogs, Addie.
00:03:26
Speaker
And also a child that we raised. Okay, look, it is different raising a dog than a than a human child, okay? With a... Anyway. Sorry.
00:03:39
Speaker
How are you doing? so close, people. Aside from being fired up about the differences between dogs and children, which are many, i'm i am aware of this. How are you doing? How are you feeling?
00:03:52
Speaker
I'm doing good. Doing good. ah Excited for summer. It's finally into summer where I'm at. That's so funny. hot take.
00:04:03
Speaker
Yeah. Boo summer. What? I hate summer. Why? It's hot. It's sweaty. There's too much sun.
00:04:15
Speaker
See, okay. i like I wish y'all could see the video because Addie's face just like went through like 12 different emotions. i'm tryinging not to I'm trying not to be like, that's crazy.
00:04:28
Speaker
but i mean, listen, I've i've you know insulted your food choices on the podcast, historically and famously. You can insult my summer choices. I... I just here's my problem is I i i don't like to when I encounter ah an opinion that is crazy to me. I'm mean like an anthropologist and like I need to figure out why it is that the way that it is. and But I'm not going to render judgment on it.
00:04:56
Speaker
I think it's my Canadian side coming out to play. No, but see, I disagree with that. Actually, you know what? That is where I draw the line. I will disagree with that because i'm I'm from Alaska. I grew up in Alaska, which is basically Canada's cousin.
00:05:09
Speaker
No, but i see, I've never lived in Canada. it's And like my dad is the same as you. He grew up in Canada. He now lives in South Carolina. He's like, give me summer, give me humidity, give me heat. I'm going to mow the lawn.
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah. Which he couldn't do in Canada because there was snow on the lawn. for most of the year so i've never lived in canada but i do have the blood of canada that runs through my veins so you you you just have not adapted to the heat nature versus nurture i was i'm naturally canadian and nurturally i hate summer didn't you grow up in italy also yeah
00:05:48
Speaker
okay anyway summer bad spring good No, no. ah You know what else is bad?
Views on Generative AI
00:05:56
Speaker
Well, we're let's segue. ah As you may be aware, if you have been on lay threads well recently, um generative AI has been a hot topic.
00:06:11
Speaker
This week and actually Addy and I, um, Addy suggested doing a whole episode to discuss AI, generative AI in publishing and creativity, which I think we're going to do. So keep your eyes peeled for a bonus episode soon that is just, it's going to be us like.
00:06:30
Speaker
What sort I'm looking for? um Blasting generative AI? i think we will be um looking at it from a perspective that is curious and investigative and talking to experts about ah the horrifying ramifications of using generative AI within publishing and in writing.
00:06:54
Speaker
But before that episode, just really quickly, I did want to acknowledge that is a hot topic. We are both firmly anti-Gen AI. ChatGPT get wrecked.
00:07:05
Speaker
Yeah, I I just ah just don't understand it. I think that I i don't... I want AI to do my laundry. Or to detect cancer in like five years before it's actually coming up.
00:07:19
Speaker
Detect cancer. Do my laundry. um Find a cure for cancer. Like, hell yeah. Yeah. Like, there they there are uses for a language learning model that can take in vast amounts of information and determine patterns.
00:07:34
Speaker
I'm not entirely convinced that it has... as the that it's 100% reliable in the way that a lot of people use it, right? Like hallucinates. It's like 0% reliable in the that people use it.
00:07:47
Speaker
Maybe 10. Maybe 10. I think it's like 30% to 40% of the time it hallucinates, right? Like i will give it I will give it the F that it deserves on the scale of homework, but you know, we're not going to give it a zero. I'm a fair teacher that's disappointed. not. I'm giving it a zero.
00:08:04
Speaker
Right. Throw it in the trash. Feed it to the dog. I don't care.
00:08:10
Speaker
i think I just read too much science fiction that like I'm not entirely willing to be like a like a Luddite about it. I'm just like this is not. OK, but we don't use Luddite as a term derogatorily because of the real history of the Luddites.
00:08:28
Speaker
Correct. You're right. i'm i'm I'm using it as a shorthand for someone who is anti-technology. But the Luddite movement did have like the the movement that it was about was based in ah maintaining jobs for people throughout the and and and the rebuke of the Industrial Revolution, which I do ah ah disagree with because I'm an anti-capitalist.
00:08:52
Speaker
There we go. That was so fun. Well, okay. Here's the problem. If we go down this rabbit hole too much, I'm going to start talking about like social economics and economics in general. And then this turns into a whole different podcast from what it originally was.
00:09:07
Speaker
Am I frustrated with what happened in the Industrial Revolution? Absolutely. did it Did it need to happen in order for society to progress? And could you argue that like what came out of the Industrial
Thoughts on Education and Society
00:09:16
Speaker
Revolution? So what have you been reading lately? I
00:09:20
Speaker
I've been falling down rabbit holes, man. yeah no yeah a water You know, this is actually why I'm really mad that the Trump administration got is getting rid of like grad plus loans. Because I just think that in my 40s, I really wanted to go back to school and get like three master's degrees.
00:09:40
Speaker
um Hot take. Yeah. Your 40s are at least a decade away. You have a lot of hope in society that I don't. Maybe you might be able want to cut this out, but my hot take is we're not going through four years of this Trump administration.
00:09:57
Speaker
It's either becoming the Trump monarchy or something else is happening. Right. So what do we think is going happen like 10 years from now? I think that by then we will have defeated the fascists.
00:10:10
Speaker
And that's what I have to believe in hope and hope in.
00:10:15
Speaker
I have to believe we're going to defeat the fascists at some point. I think we're going to bull believe I think we're going to defeat the fascists. I just don't think that we're going to defeat the fascists in a way that will allow me to.
00:10:26
Speaker
tim I think we might defeat the fascists in a way that then like breaks down capitalism. So then you might not need your grad plus loan. You might just get to go to grad school for free for bartering in exchange for goods and services.
00:10:41
Speaker
That's my new favorite thing. i say that to my mom when I'm telling her that capitalism is evil. She's like, well what should we do in instead? And I'm like, barter, exchange goods for services. And then she gets really frustrated.
00:10:51
Speaker
I mean, outside of a capitalist society, like outside of capitalism, like if we don't look at education as something that you have to pay for, then you wouldn't have to barter for it at all. Because that it usually means that you have to, quote unquote, pay for the service and education should be free.
00:11:06
Speaker
See, this is why you're the smart one in the relationship. I'm just here to throw hot takes. Karis, you're the great interviewer. You get to you get the people on this podcast. I'm just the hot take generator.
00:11:20
Speaker
Summer bad. Peas and mac and cheese bad. Education good. Education good. and Oh, God. um Yeah, so what have you been reading lately?
00:11:34
Speaker
okay, I have been on a reading binge lately. Have you?
Reading Habits and Book Discussions
00:11:38
Speaker
I have. Well, so my coworker last week on, like, Thursday offhandedly mentioned that she had started Iron.
00:11:48
Speaker
No, fortunate started Fourth Wing and like she read it in like one night. Dang. And she wasn't that big of a reader, but she really liked it. And so I was like, OK, this is I should read this book because like half the other people in the office were like, oh, I love that series. They're like, oh, I'm we should all read it ah as like a, you know, as an office and start talking about it.
00:12:08
Speaker
And if there's anything that I am, it's I want people to talk to books about. So talk. OK. that Talk to books about. Talk about. Talk.
00:12:20
Speaker
Anyways, I want to talk about books. Talk about books. Yeah. Talk to books about. Sorry. just like the Picture Addy in their library just going, Dear Fourth Wing, Today my friend Karis said the wildest shit.
00:12:37
Speaker
And Fourth Wing's like, Bitch, are you going to read me or not? Oh, God. No, um i I just thought it would be a good opportunity to like bond with my coworkers. um So I started reading the book and I did not have high expectations in any way shape or form.
00:12:51
Speaker
In fact, and this is this is ah a character flaw of mine that I recognize. i understand it's a character flaw. However, I am not a character in a book, so no one is forcing me to change about it And I'm not going to force me to change, which is the more popular a thing is if it's a book, if it's a TV show, if I don't discover it before it's popular or if I'm not like i don't I don't want it.
00:13:16
Speaker
Like if someone comes up to me and is like, you should. And in quite literally, this was the fourth wing situation. Like I'd seen it everywhere. People have been talking about it. And I was like, there's there's no way in hell I'm going to read that book.
00:13:30
Speaker
I'm a hater just to be a hater's sake. and john So but then I was like, more I'm I'm a hater, but I'm also wanting to belong. So oh reading the book and I devoured it.
00:13:46
Speaker
it Well, it was just very like snappily written, right? Like it's written like a like a romance, but in a fantasy setting. hu And yeah, it was just very readable.
00:13:59
Speaker
Very, very readable. And the The dragons are cool? Dragons are very cool. I was surprised actually how much I enjoyed the fantasy elements and the world building that existed because I thought that it was going to lean significantly more like romance. and But it no, it like there was there was really good world building. The characterization was great.
00:14:20
Speaker
You know, i ah Yeah. So I devoured the first book and then I immediately started reading the second book, which these are like chonky books. Another thing that I was not prepared for. They're like six to eight hundred page books.
00:14:32
Speaker
Chonky. So I read through all of that, all of those three books in a span of.
00:14:42
Speaker
48 hours is a little crazy. Okay, so you ah had your version of my vampires. I did, but here's the problem is I felt a little bit like I'd started crack cocaine and I couldn't stop.
00:14:56
Speaker
and That's also how I felt. ah Well, and the crack cocaine was just like romantic fantasy. So I started with fourth wing, read that whole trilogy. And then i was like, I need more.
00:15:06
Speaker
And so then I started another, well, cause I got Kindle Unlimited, right? like So that I can read the first two books in the, in the, in the series. And then I had to buy the the third book in the, in the Iron Flame series. But then I was like, well, what's, what then basically maybe this is character growth for me.
00:15:22
Speaker
You know what? Looking back. I have a rack for you. Well, here's the thing is I, then looked at book talk and was like what is the other wrecks that are like quote unquote popular so what'd you read um i did the did the cassie what is it called what's that series cassie claire No. so send No, not Cassandra. Carissa Broadbent.
00:15:48
Speaker
Carissa Broadbent. Yes. the Nice. The Niaxia. Yeah, The Serpent and the Wings of Night. um So I read all of that series, including the um the novella and then the standalone.
00:16:00
Speaker
wait ah And I just finished the standalone yesterday evening, actually. And I really what was interesting about that series. I'm just ah you're going to have to talk a lot about the books that you're reading because I'm talking a lot about the books that I'm reading.
00:16:13
Speaker
um But so the last thing I will say about that series is like I i've i i love the books that they that that are in the main series. and right I love the novella and the standalone novel more.
00:16:24
Speaker
Oh, wow. Surprising to me. par take, maybe. Maybe, don't know. I think it's, I think it's interesting. This was, this was sort of in a moment where I briefly pulled back from my like, you know, heroin reading marathon.
00:16:42
Speaker
And this craft thought of like, it's really interesting that in the main series, like, like she's doing really cool things and and it's good characterization. And like, it's, it's very like, you know, um,
00:16:53
Speaker
I don't want to call it popcorn because I think it has like a negative connotation. Right. But like the readability is super high for this series. and um But the but the novella and the standalone, I think, ah was able to turn the dial a little bit more towards serious like the novella clearly has a main character who is autistic.
00:17:11
Speaker
Right. Like, exceedingly autistic. And she showed up in the in the second book of the main series. um and i And I read the second book before I read the novella.
00:17:23
Speaker
And she she also came off as clearly autistic and just like very like a very cool, like autistic vampire. And then to have a whole 200-page book from her perspective, I was like, oh, this is so so fascinating.
00:17:37
Speaker
um And i just know you know I love seeing different representation even in books like that. And then the the standalone, too, the main character is blind i don't who and she's a Wow.
00:17:55
Speaker
Yeah. So it was it was turning the dial with a little bit more serious, a little bit more like testing the water, I think, of like... um
00:18:07
Speaker
What she was going to... Anyways, yeah. it was yeah was just cool. Lovely. I'm now back in my reading era, which is great. Because that's the thing that I always struggle with is like, you know, when you're working full time and when you're doing great full time and when you're doing all of these other things like a podcast, right? Like, where do you find time to read? How do you... And so I sort of... i sometimes forget...
00:18:33
Speaker
how to read in in a way you know like I always read a couple books a month like that's a that's a given in but like really sustained and consistent reading I sometimes struggle with that pattern but so we'll see or maybe this is just like a a one-off well a binge a week long I don't think so No, I don't think so. I think you're in it now. I'm in it. I committed. it You know what you should read?
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah. The Broken and Bloodline series. broken is that That's my vampires. Okay, here's my question. oh the Sadie Kincaid. It's on my list.
00:19:08
Speaker
i will i i I will try to read this. It's urban fantasy, though, right? Like, it's modern day? um Paranormal more than anything. I wouldn't say urban because it's not, like, in an urban setting. It's...
00:19:22
Speaker
Yeah. On a college and the nature. Sure. Sure. But it's... Yeah. It's paranormal contemporary. ah Why choose? Yeah. There is MM. Okay.
00:19:33
Speaker
I... Yes, I will read it. so I got to. This is this is just a me brain. I'm so in like medieval fantasy land. I got I got to read an 1800s fantasy book. You've got to I've got to I've got to get through the bridge the gap.
00:19:49
Speaker
Got to bridge the gap. You. um OK, perfect. Yeah, I don't have one of those. for you You should read The Rose Bargain by Sasha Payton Smith, which I haven't read yet, but I have heard sounds really cool.
00:20:02
Speaker
I think I just added... It's like Bridgerton Faye, 1800s fantasy. moral Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
00:20:13
Speaker
and And then tell me if you like it so that I can read it in like 12 years when I get to the end of my TBR. Okay. okay i will I will put my critical thinking hat on when I read it in tandem with my having a fun time.
00:20:28
Speaker
That's the problem when I when i read books. I will like if you i don't use Goodreads anymore, but when I did, I rated every book five stars. Because I was like, I finished it. i i i If I didn't finish the book, I'm not going to rate it.
00:20:41
Speaker
If didn't finish the book, then I didn't like it. yeah and If I finish the book, then it's a good book. Yeah, the five steps. can how can How can you deduct I care about these characters?
00:20:54
Speaker
i didn ah Have you been writing anything lately? ah Yes, I have. um I'm just debating. i i've been I've been writing a couple chapters, continuing to write in the in the contemporary rom-com.
00:21:09
Speaker
I feel a little bit like I'm cheating on this rom-com. Okay. because I started dreaming well you know how when you like it i I think it's it's because I started like uh reading a lot more romantic fantasy yep which we've established um but there was this older story with that I started in like 2018 it had like that it had never like
00:21:37
Speaker
That had languished, right? just started thinking about that and and I was like, how would I tell that story now? Do you have commitment issues with your stories? Yeah.
00:21:50
Speaker
Sorry, the look you gave me. Incredibly sad. I have commitment issues in a lot of areas of my life.
00:21:59
Speaker
Fair. um i'm ah what I'm a recovering avoidant attachment person. um don't know what my attachment style is.
00:22:12
Speaker
I feel like you're mostly... Anxious? Yeah, yeah. I wanted to be like, can I call Kara secure? but oh Absolutely not. That's just what? Anyway, moving on. So you avoid attachments because you have commitment issues. Let's diagnose you. Yeah. Generally what happens is once something gets serious, right? Like once I get a point of like, I literally only have a couple chapters left in this romantic contemporary book that I'm, and I will have to finish it. Yeah, will.
00:22:45
Speaker
because my you well will actually and everyone around me that I've been telling this book about will uh not that you've been telling this book about telling this telling the telling this book about telling about this book telling about this book you know okay look words words are hard and I'm having so much fun sorry you um but anyway so I do it to finish it but whenever I get to like the almost end i it's not even that i don't want it to end it's not that i'm scared like i i i don't like sharing my work with the people that i'm getting better at that like it starts to get serious and it's the same with romantic relationships right when you hit the like three month mark you have to start saying i love you to people and uh
00:23:32
Speaker
and
00:23:36
Speaker
ah
00:23:39
Speaker
And then it gets and then it's serious. And then I just want to run away, and which is the same with my books. Well, don't do that. Yeah. Good.
00:23:50
Speaker
We've fixed it. Yeah. Don't do that. Okay. Karis, you need to talk. What are you reading? What are you writing? So I'm reading couple of the books that I've been reading for a while, so I won't bring them up again. I did recently start Tess Sharpe's adult sapphic romantic thriller, Nobody, No Crime. And it is, when I say chef's kiss, I mean like the chef should be kissed.
00:24:19
Speaker
It's so good. I don't think that statement means anything. But, like, it's so fucking good. It's... The way Tess writes, I just, like... The stakes are so fucking high.
00:24:30
Speaker
And it's thriller. And they're so smart. And they have such... And the the timeline, like, it's dual timeline. Multi... Dual POV. And we're jumping back and forth. And we're slowly putting together the pieces of this mystery.
00:24:44
Speaker
And I am ah dying. Dying. To know what happened in the past and what's going to happen going forward. And, like, what what's happening. um And also it's Suffolk. And I'm, like, a hoe for that.
00:24:55
Speaker
um I also recently read Swift and Saddled. Which is book two in the Rebel Blue Ranch series. Which is my cishet cowboy obsession right now.
00:25:09
Speaker
But I'm also reading... um
00:25:13
Speaker
Oh, it's the one by Sarah Hawley where the witch fake dates the demon. Oh, yeah. And it's so cute. I am genuinely adoring it so much.
00:25:25
Speaker
um Is it a witch guide to fake dating a demon? Yes, it is. Yeah. Okay. It sure is. And then what else am I reading? I'm reading something else.
00:25:36
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I'm also listening to the audiobook of The Red Scrolls of Magic um because i had a dream two years ago. And in that dream, I was in Atlanta.
00:25:47
Speaker
I was at my friend's cat house. Friend cat's house. Not my friend's cat house. That's something else entirely. My are spreading.
00:25:59
Speaker
I was at my friend Kat's house. I was sick as a dog. I was like lying on the air mattress, just dying. And I had this dream that I was reading the entire Shadowhunters universe.
00:26:09
Speaker
And I woke up and my like feverish brain was like, well, you gotta do it. So I started and I've made it through all of the Mortal Instruments, which is the six books, the contemporary six books. I made it through all of the Infernal Devices.
00:26:22
Speaker
And then I was going to jump into the last hours, whatever the one in California is. But apparently I have to read the in-between books first. Yeah. So I'm listening to them on audiobook while I color. And that is my, like, hobby.
00:26:37
Speaker
Just listen to. And the... and I have some feelings about some of the accents the narrator puts on. Oh. I don't love the voices, but it's a Grin and Barrett situation. i like the story.
00:26:54
Speaker
And I'm not writing anything, though. I am thinking I might try, and it starts today, I might try A Thousand Words of Summer, which if you aren't familiar with that, is um author Jamie Attenberg has been doing this thing for several years now called One Thousand Words of Summer, where for 14 days every summer, um you try and write a thousand words a day.
00:27:13
Speaker
and it's just like gentle, easy, breezy, lemon squeezy, like, let's go. And I haven't been drafting lately because I've been really burnt out. But I am thinking I'm going to try it. And I'm going to start today.
00:27:25
Speaker
So by the time this airs, we'll know whether I've succeeded. But I plan to write a thousand words of my paranormal sapphic romance.
00:27:36
Speaker
Hell yeah. That sounds so exciting. Yeah. Yeah. And we've rambled on for quite a while now.
Character Development with Camilla Cole
00:27:43
Speaker
So I'm just going to segue us into the episode, which today's episode, as you might have seen from Instagram, our guest is the one and only Camilla Cole.
00:27:54
Speaker
ah We talked about character and I will read her bio now.
00:28:00
Speaker
Camilla Cole is a national best-selling, lodestar, Hugo Award finalist, and Dragon Award-nominated author. Jamaican-born and American-raised, she works in publishing by day, and by night, she writes like she's running out of time.
00:28:14
Speaker
In the past, she's also worked as a journalist and at a hotel, two jobs that give you amazing stories to tell at parties. You know, if she went to parties. A graduate of New York University, Camilla is currently based in the Pacific Northwest, where she's usually playing Kingdom Hearts for the hundredth time, quoting early SpongeBob SquarePants episodes, or crying her way through Zuko's redemption art and avatar, the Lost Airbender.
00:28:40
Speaker
She is represented by Emily Forney at Bookends Literary Agency. With no further ado, we give you Camilla Cole on character.
00:28:51
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome to a another and and news i not love new episode of the Right Way of Life podcast. My name is Karis Rogerson. am your host.
00:29:03
Speaker
Addie, unfortunately, is unable to be with us today, but we've got the incredible Camilla Cole. Welcome, Camilla. Do you want to... say something to the podcast i don't know about incredible but i am indeed camilla cole and i am so excited to be here talking to guys i would say incredible i've read your books i know what i'm talking about ah you're like i'm uncomfortable okay we can move on i am not good with compliments and i am not good at promo so i'm gonna do my best please read my books even though i will often tell not to read my books
00:29:37
Speaker
No, this so today we're here to talk about character, which I have been looking forward to this episode since we came up with them because, man, I love a character. i just They are the heart and blood and, well, that's a weird thing to say. They're like the lifeblood of a book for me because they are the beating heart. They're the center of it. They're the propulsion of the plot. So I'm so excited to chat with Camilla. I have read Camilla's duology, The Divine Traders duology, which is Still Let Them Burn and the sentence isn the numbers oh god i got scared for about it no um yeah and i just i loved all the characters i there's we'll get to that later there's like one line from the end of the second book that like plays on a loop in my head sometimes oh my god just yeah well i'll tell you what it is off the recording
00:30:24
Speaker
um But yeah, so I loved all the characters. It's got like um two incredible sisters who sort of drive the plot and then they've got their friends, their lovers, their enemies, their dragons, because that's right. This is a dragon fantasy fantasy.
00:30:41
Speaker
Bet you didn't see that one coming. um You probably did. um But yeah yeah, I'm going to stop rambling now and I'll ask my first question, which is just if you were talking to an audience of like five year olds who don't know anything about a story, how would you define character?
00:30:57
Speaker
A character is just like a weird little guy. and there was this tweet by this friend of mine. Her name is Gabby Moss. And it went like super viral. And she was like, you know, books are so weird. It's like, oh, no, here's a weird little guy. Let's put him in a situation.
00:31:13
Speaker
um so whenever anybody asks me what a character is, that's I just think it's a weird little guy. and you put them in a situation. Yeah, that's does a character have to be like a human?
00:31:25
Speaker
No, it can be any weird little guy. like I was a huge fan growing up of the Redwall books, which are about my god weird little guys who are in situations at Redwall Abbey.
00:31:38
Speaker
You know, I also really like the Tale of Despero. ah one I guess I just really like a lot of mice.
00:31:46
Speaker
Or, you know, I really love the movie Sing, which was about among animals, weird little guys who like to sing. Like you just yeah make a weird little guy and you put him in a situation. I think the only thing that a character needs is to be fictional.
00:32:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. That's so like succinct and perfect. And I was like, wow, I have nothing to add. Well, you said I was explaining it to a five-year-old. but You did a great job. The five-year-olds that are listening to this podcast.
00:32:14
Speaker
Yeah. their mind's blown you're welcome um so when you're conceptualizing a story right like you're coming up with a new whether it's um one that you're already working on or like you're working on the sequel or you're working on something like how do you come up with your characters sort of i guess sort to add to that like what comes first right because for me i get like a premise and then i just like pigeonhole some people in it do you get like a character do you get like a setting you know what comes first
00:32:45
Speaker
Yeah, I'm really more um along the lines of you in that I come up with a premise first or like a cool world and then a plot and then the characters. Because just like to write things that I think are cool and they usually come to me in the form of like, this magic system would be really cool or i really like dragons so I want to write a dragon book or something like that. It's like a piece and then it just kind of comes together.
00:33:13
Speaker
The characters are actually last for me because I plot my first drafts like very, very heavily. So everybody is just doing what I plotted.
00:33:24
Speaker
And only once I finish the first draft can I be like, okay, well, now I have to... revise because the characters are people are alive to me in my head and they would do some of these things so I have to come up with different things it definitely takes me until the end of the first draft before I feel like I have my character voices in my head and they're not just um um just names I'm moving from plot point to plot point That's actually such a relief to hear because I'm like in the first like 10,000 words of a new project and I'm at stool POV sync like ah first person.
00:33:56
Speaker
And I'm just like, who are these people? What would they do? Like, what is happening? And I was like, my bad writer. I don't know them yet. No, I have no idea. Yeah, you've got to kind of like figure like you get to know them through the storytelling. Exactly. Exactly. They become for me, my characters are just what the story needs the first time. And then I'm editing, um the story becomes what they need.
00:34:20
Speaker
So do your... um When you're revising, does the actual plot, like, change significantly based on, like, maybe character A did one thing in the first draft and then you're like, that they would never do that?
00:34:32
Speaker
Yes. Yes, it happens a lot. So in the first... Earlier drafts of um So Let Them Burn, which I never picked.
00:34:44
Speaker
You did a great job, but like. The Divine Traitors trilogy, and my elevator pitch is that it is a Jamaican Joan of Arc with dragons and it follows a girl, Farron, who is blessed by the gods with their magic to save her island from a dragon riding empire.
00:34:59
Speaker
Which she did when she was 12, but five years later, her older sister, Alara, bonds with the dragon, um and the gods now tell Theron that to save her sister, she'll have to kill her sister, um basically, the bit. I just chills again.
00:35:12
Speaker
so good. So, um yeah, in one of the early versions of So Let Them Burn, Alara bonded with the enemy dragon, Zephira, and then she refused to to let, to go away to the dragon riding school. So they ended up having to take her to one of the um islets near the island train her here on her island um because she refused to be parted from her sister. She refused to leave.
00:35:42
Speaker
um So that was one of the early drafts. And then in as I learned Alara's voice, you know, I learned that she's very dutiful. She's very like, you know, like you tell me to do something like I want to be the good one. I want to be the one that people respect. So, of course, she would go even if she doesn't want to.
00:36:00
Speaker
So that changed her entire arc because now it takes place at the Dragon Riding School um and she spends most of the book in a foreign country surrounded by hostile people um so that's the kind of thing yeah and that changes everything yeah because alarm not the kind of person who is like no i won't right yeah i think that um i could see farrah doing that she'd be like no thanks way more farrah's vibe
00:36:27
Speaker
But as a and ah people pleaser, rule follower, you know, teacher's pet, I'm with Alara. I'm like, oh, fuck. I guess I got to go to the the country of my enemies and, like, learn to ride a dragon. Like, that sucks. But they said to do it.
00:36:43
Speaker
But she had to do it. You got to do it. Yeah. um Okay. That's really fascinating. How many, like, how many drafts do you tend to do per, like,
00:36:56
Speaker
I don't know if if, and I'm sure it's changed since you started getting published because we all know everything changes when you have those contracts. um But do you tend to do like multiple drafts or like a lot of drafts?
00:37:10
Speaker
Well, I, at this point in my career, um i'm about to release my... Okay, I call An Arcane Inheritance my adult debut, my third book. But technically I have a short story and an anthology that comes out soon. So it's like my 3.5 book.
00:37:32
Speaker
um But at this point in my career with almost four books, um i just get to the end of whatever I'm doing and then I send it to my editor. i as just still like Still Let Them Burn took me like 36 rewrites before I even got an agent. Then I did like two, three with her.
00:37:51
Speaker
And then why editor, i did like, you do several rounds with your editor because you do developmental edits, line edits, copy edits, past pages, past pages. Yeah. ah So, you know, i don't at this point do multiple drafts myself because I know I'm going to see this book so many times before it goes to print that I may as well just wait for my editor to tell me what she thinks is wrong with it.
00:38:17
Speaker
um Yeah. But yeah, so Let Them Burn took a lot of tries. to get right um and arcane inheritance which i just i'm supposed to get arc design pages soon and that took to like i think we went through like six okay because i sold it on proposal so my editor started with the first draft Gotcha. Yeah. much Yeah. Yeah, that does.
00:38:48
Speaker
Yeah. No, but I can even see that in my own writing. Like when I was first drafting my first couple books that I didn't have an agent for, I did like 12, 13 drafts. And then slowly, like, now I sent a book to my agent on like the third draft. And I was like, oh, my God, this is wild. I can't believe I'm doing this. But also.
00:39:03
Speaker
and Yeah, I just like don't have time to do 14 drafts before. I don't have time. So you just much rather just accept that your agent is going to see the worst or your editor is going to be the worst. This story is going to be in still like anyway.
00:39:16
Speaker
Yeah, they're going to find the like the gem inside of it and be like, I like this. um Okay, so isn't sorry, excuse me.
00:39:28
Speaker
When it comes to writing your characters, what what all sort of goes into making them like authentic, true to life, but like characters that, you know, they're fictional, obviously, but maybe you forget they're fictional sometimes when you're reading because they're just so real.
00:39:42
Speaker
so um For me, I just like, I just try to listen. Like I said, when I first start the book, the characters or whatever the story needs them to be. But by the time I'm revising, like I need to listen to them and see who they are and thus what they want and then transform the story into what it needs to be for them. And I think that just goes with like not being married to the plot over my characters.
00:40:11
Speaker
you know, um let so I'm working on my next YA right now. It's called Wicked Endeavors. um And it's about this girl who ah goes into disguise to infiltrate the social season of the elite witches that run her country to get her revenge on them.
00:40:28
Speaker
And while doing so, she gets caught in a love triangle between her traitorous childhood friend and a manipulative enemy prince. Because if there's one thing I'm going to do with a black girl, it's going to make everyone in love with her.
00:40:40
Speaker
a hundred percent you know when i started the draft of this though like i didn't know which one of the boys that she was going end up like liking more i was just like i'll see what happens as i write um so as i'm getting near the end her voice is starting to come to me clearly now and i know more of what she wants i know more of who she is i know more of the things that hurt her So when I get this book back for edits, I think making her feel real will be like not being attached to a like, this is what has to happen. This is where this has to end because she needs to lead the story. The story can no longer meet her. It needs to be her choices.
00:41:19
Speaker
and her traumas that decide what happened next. um And I think that's what what turns a character from a word on a page to a real feeling person is making sure that everything that happens to this in the story is served by their choices, moods, and emotions.
00:41:37
Speaker
um Yeah. Which is hard for me as a plotter, but, you know. Yeah. Life. so Life's gonna life even in your books. um I love the like the character leads the story. The story doesn't lead the character because I think one thing that I often struggle with in writing is like my characters are just things are happening to them and I have to work really hard to be like This is not just them reacting. Maybe it starts as a reaction, but then we push it further into an action. yeah But also, like, there's got to be times when they're taking the initiative and being like, oh, man, I got an F on my paper. Let me go into the teacher's office and, like, change it to an A, which don't do that.
00:42:19
Speaker
Unless you're a character in a book. do that. Don't cheat. um Unless it's good for the plot. No, just kidding.
00:42:28
Speaker
yeah it's uh do it for the gram except for writers i think so um yeah no that's really i love that that was such a like there were a couple times in there where you're talking and i was like oh that that's a great quote and then like you said another great quote and i was like oh no i lost the first one um no um you know what you're talking about like that's amazing i never feel like i know what i'm talking about so i this podcast is so fun I don't feel like I know what I'm talking about. I'm just glad that you're following me. No, 100%. I'm with you. um Okay, so you've got...
00:43:08
Speaker
you're when i think of people who are doing like multiple projects at once i'm like oh yeah camilla call like you've got like just because like you had an adult and a ya like series announced before the first one even came out and then you've got like your next ya so i'm like all right you know you're like doing it you've got all these projects how do you keep the characters straight like how do you keep the voice you know in the right book um i cry i'm kidding Fair. yeah like I just try to read a lot. what i'm working on like I'm working on Wicked Endeavors, and it is very much one of those like high society, like Bridgerton type of books. So um ah when I can read, because reading slumps happen, I read a lot of like, I've read Heartless Hunter by Kristen Ciccarelli and The Rose Bargain, um like things that where the characters are doing like high society things, things that are YA.
00:44:03
Speaker
um When I was working on an arcane inheritance, because it's very adult, despite taking place in a college, I read like an education and malice by ST Gibson and Academy for Liars by i love that book. Sorry.
00:44:16
Speaker
The Cloisters, like I just made sure that I read like contemporary kind of literary adult books that are set in and around an academic environment. And that helps me keep the voice right. I don't tend to mix up characters across projects because At least so far, I've been blessed enough that each of my characters leading these projects are very different. Like Farron and Allara are very different. Ellery is very different from Farron or Allara because she's at a completely different stage in her life. And then Marisol from um my upcoming YA, she's just so angry.
00:44:51
Speaker
ah So they're like, their voices are very different and distinct in my head and their stories are in different places, like complete getting complete yeah written that it's really more about making sure that my prose on a craft level is remaining in the age category that it's meant to be in and i do that mostly by reading to see yeah Yeah, absolutely. Writers should always be reading aside.
00:45:20
Speaker
Yes. um But also I have this like momentary flash of like, oh, that's my problem is I keep forgetting to make my characters different from each other.
00:45:32
Speaker
Oops. um But I think part of that is I do a lot of and especially my first couple books were a lot of them were in like first person. And I also came from a journalism background where I was writing a lot of like first person personal essays.
00:45:45
Speaker
Yeah. So half the time I'm like, wait, is that something my character would say? Or is that what I would say? Yeah. um Fun fact, I get called out every single book. I wrote a book that's like set in Italy. And the characters are like one of them is Italian in and one of them lives in Scotland. Her parents live in Scotland. She was raised there.
00:46:01
Speaker
And they're always like, yeah, y'all don't know. And everyone was like, hey, why are they saying y'all? They're in Italy. And I was like, ah, shit, that was me. Like, I put my voice there. ah That is my that is one of my big stumbling blocks.
00:46:15
Speaker
Well, I also think that like, I mean, voice is a good thing to have as a writer. All of your books should sound like they were written by the same person. It's just that like your characters, when they're like in quotation marks, you know, speaking from their voice should not sound like you. And I think that's like a very hard thing to master no matter like how early or far along you are.
00:46:36
Speaker
in your career, balancing your voice with your character's voice. um Because, you know, and I don't write in first person, but I know for a lot of first person things, it bothers me.
00:46:47
Speaker
um We actually just had this conversation in the 2026 debut chat, but it bothers me when I read a book in first person and it's like, oh, this character was raised on a farm in a remote village, like so far away from the capital, they can't even read.
00:47:01
Speaker
But then they're like, I walk through the forest as the intricate curls of steam raise from the chocolate brown rooftop of the... Oh, no, no, no. Who taught you the word intricate?
00:47:12
Speaker
Who taught... Yeah. Or they're like, you know, or they like describe something as like something that they shouldn't know, right? like Exactly. But then somebody in the group chat said that like...
00:47:24
Speaker
you know in quotations is your character speaking in their own voice in the rest of the descriptive paragraphs that you have some artistic liberty to inject your author voice to describe the world around them. um And that was something I never understood as somebody who does it right in first person, but it made so much more sense to me.
00:47:45
Speaker
That the descriptive paragraphs are where you can show on a prose and craft level your voice. And then as long as you focus on the characters in their quotation marks sounding um the way they should, I think that's a good, like...
00:48:00
Speaker
That's my tip. thank the No, that's actually great. That's great because sometimes I'm like, you know, I can turn a phrase pretty nicely, but not all my characters can.
00:48:12
Speaker
So I'm always like, would they say this? Like, am I allowed to like have lovely prose when I'm writing from the perspective of like an angry 12 year old who just got thrown into a strange portal? Like, who knows?
00:48:23
Speaker
um That's my project. That's my white whale project that I just keep starting and never finishing. but It sounds awesome. Listen, I love it, but it doesn't want to get written. Some books are just like that. Some books take time.
00:48:37
Speaker
Yeah. i ah Yeah. Some books you've got to just be like, all right, so not today, but maybe in five years. Yeah. You'll get for when you get there. Publish and we'll wait. keep our fingers crossed.
00:48:49
Speaker
Okay, so if you were like, if you're teaching, I don't know why I phrased that question this way, but like what are your best tips and tricks for character writing? Whether that's like ones that you use or if you were trying to impart to someone else like how to write a good character.
00:49:10
Speaker
i just think that for me, a good character... Well, I don't want to say that because like I don't want to give any sort of absolute. So ah when i read or i watch TV or i play a video game and there is a character I really love um for my like five second craft lessons, I try to think to myself, what is it about this character that I really, really love?
00:49:41
Speaker
Like, for example, Alara. a laura had some of her, like, when I was crafting her, I was really into this show um that was on Syfy called Wynonna Earp.
00:49:57
Speaker
And on the show, there is this character, her name is Waverly. She is Wynonna's younger sister. She is smarter and more responsible and more well-liked.
00:50:07
Speaker
And she, you know, is not the chosen one of the family. That's Wynonna. um But she wants to be helpful. She wants to find her place, all of that stuff. She's such a people pleaser.
00:50:18
Speaker
And she's people pleasing to the point of comp head, you know, like she at first is dating a boy and then she realizes that she is a lesbian and she has like this beautiful love story. Anyway, so I don't think I have to tell you from there how Waverly inspired a lot Many, many ways.
00:50:38
Speaker
But what I liked about Waverly was that I just thought it was very, very interesting to be someone who was related to someone who was just so much more famous and accomplished than you could ever be.
00:50:51
Speaker
And that desperation to want to find your own place outside of their shadow. um So i was like, I really love that. And I really love how like adorkable she is. Like she's so cute like it's very obvious why people like her so a lot of that when I was thinking about Alara I was like I know Farron I know her but contrast to her I want to explore that issue of like I'm related to someone who is more famous and accomplished than I could ever be how do I find my own place on that so yeah i craft it
00:51:27
Speaker
When crafting characters is like, think of characters that you like from TV, from video games, from books, if you can read, because Lord knows I can't. um
00:51:37
Speaker
Or don't just think of like, ah like make a list of your favorite characters and then go down the list and be like, why do I like this character? What specifically about them do I like? Is it some part of their arc? Is it a personality trait?
00:51:49
Speaker
Like, is it just because they're really hot? like And from there, when you're crafting your own characters, you can like sort of figure out what you like and build that into the characters that you're writing for your books.
00:52:02
Speaker
Yes, that's amazing. Also, I can 100% see like after you described Waverly, I was like, I see it. Yeah, also, fact, I've only seen the first like two episodes of Winona Earp because I got too scared yeah because I'm a scaredy cat.
00:52:18
Speaker
um but i have been on i was on twitter for many many years and twitter knew i was gay before i did so twitter was like oh look here's waverly and her girlfriend and i was like well yes why why do i love them so much and then i was gay yeah waverly and nicole are like one of my favorite couples of all time so i mean they're like the reason i'm like i gotta go back to that show just watch their like scene online you're so right yeah so right I'll just find a compilation somewhere. um I've been there, done that. I... Yeah.
00:52:53
Speaker
Love me a romance compilation, but... Back on track. ah No, that was... i do think there is something so...
00:53:05
Speaker
So to me, it's writing comes very instinctually a lot of the time, right? Like it's like I sit down and I feel it and it comes out. And if I were to sit down 10 minutes later and start writing, it would be a totally different scene. but But there are so many ways that you can sort of structurize it and make it like, you know, like you doing that analysis of character and being like, okay, so I'm going to sit down and I don't know exactly how the scene is going to go, but I know that my character is really stubborn.
00:53:32
Speaker
So I know she's not going to say yes immediately to whatever she's asked to do. And that like, and I know that because I watched... I don't know, some show with a Taurus or something. Like, stubborn people.
00:53:44
Speaker
I say that as a Taurus.
00:53:48
Speaker
I am stubborn, if nothing else. Okay. So, on the podcast, I like to call things conventions instead of rules, right? So, it's like, what's your genre convention? What's your voice convention?
00:54:00
Speaker
And I also, as a podcaster and a human and a writer, who firmly believe in there is no such thing as, like, a blanket rule. Everything is your mileage may vary. Not true. So with all with all that aside, what are some character writing conventions or rules that you actually are like, this works at least most of the time?
00:54:22
Speaker
o yeah don't think i really have anything. Every time I write a book, I've forgotten how to write a book. You know, so it's like I used to have like a tried and true method for writing books. And now it's just like every book. It's like, how hard are you going to fight me? Oh, my God. So hard. So I don't know that I really have any character conventions that I follow or that I believe. Yeah. Every book just feels different. Was it just character conventions or were there other conventions you asked me about?
00:54:59
Speaker
No, it's just specifically character. If you have any others that you're like, but you got to do this, like feel free. but Okay. All you got to do is see the end somehow. However you get there.
00:55:10
Speaker
Blood, sweat, tears, just, you know. Deals with demons in the dark dark. We don't judge. Not AI. not a i and No, and we do judge for the AI. It's so hard. and trick Coming out, song on the podcast, anti-touch EPT.
Challenges in Writing & Maintaining Originality
00:55:26
Speaker
cannot say enough if you used AI to get to the end.
00:55:29
Speaker
but done Judging? Yeah, we do not listen, but we do judge. I would much rather you go to the dark forest on a moonless night deal with the devil.
00:55:40
Speaker
a burt Find a crossroads somewhere. Give up your soul. well like all
00:55:47
Speaker
Just don't give your soul to fucking Sam Altman because that's what you're doing with AI. Anyway. ah um Yeah, that's so fair. and Literally yesterday as I was like trying to write past the 5,000 word mark in my book, I was in my Discord being like, so I've lost the I've lost it.
00:56:03
Speaker
like i never really had it, but it's gone now. And they were like, oh, good. So you're writing a book again. like That's normal. That's how it works. that's how it works And then I like read V. Schwab's newsletter and she's like, yeah, I don't think I can write a book now. And I was like, oh my God, it happens all of us.
00:56:19
Speaker
No matter how far you are in your career, the hardest part of writing a book is writing a book. It's like they don't even want to be written sometimes. I'm like, I'm doing you a favor, but you're going to be in the world. Yep.
00:56:30
Speaker
For money. And then. In the world for money. Yeah. Don't you want to exist? Anyway, now I'm personifying books, which, you know, that's fine.
00:56:42
Speaker
Okay, what about character things that you, like, wouldn't advise, right? Like, are there some rules that you would be like, don't, don't, don't not do this?
00:56:55
Speaker
Plagiarize. um Because I want to just add that as a convention, because I said, you know, think of characters that you like and what you like about them. and build a character from there.
00:57:06
Speaker
Allara and Waverly are nothing alike. If you watch Wine on an Earp, you will not, you will get Allara's vibes, but like they're just not the same. I think that it's really important that, there are only 10 stories in the world to tell, and that characters will be similar, um but you should not go out of your way to literally take someone else's work and pass it off as your own.
00:57:36
Speaker
um And then at the same time, just because two characters are similar, you should not consider it plagiarizing just because you think they're similar because that word means something.
00:57:48
Speaker
and I don't think that enough people know that words mean things. he is So my character don't is don't plagiarize and then consequently don't assume that everything is plagiarism.
00:58:03
Speaker
100 wise words for threads to hear yeah um yeah no and i there's the word that comes to mind is like archetypes right like the framework the archetype of the character so like you saw inspiration and how waverly acted ah but you completely put your own like spin and version on it right like they're very different characters.
00:58:31
Speaker
Yeah. I love Allara. Gliberly is, and Allara as well, is both, um if we're talking TV tropes, they would be the unchosen one and they would be the jumped at the call tropes. Because basically they were not chosen to be the hero, but they will take any opportunity to do something heroic.
00:58:52
Speaker
Those are the things that they have in common and being gay. But Alara always knew she was gay. So like that's not in a similar path. um They're not otherwise the same. and I think I would be those tropes too.
00:59:05
Speaker
I can see it. Yeah. I don't know about it. I like I would just like if anything exciting happens to me, I would be more victim than hero. Because that's so lazy. Yeah. That's what I always say about the apocalypse. I'm like, when it happens, like when the zombies come, they're just, they can have my brain. Like, I would be full Meg from Hercules. Like, I'm a damsel. I'm in distress. Have a nice Please, someone.
00:59:28
Speaker
Make it stressing. um That's amazing. Is there anything else character related that you like wish to share, whether that's about your writing process or like tips or just a character that you love?
00:59:45
Speaker
Um, I think that, oh, I actually said this on threads the other day, but like, um, uh, A character that I really love is Gansey from The Raven Boys. And my favorite friendship of his is with Ronan Lynch, his best friend since childhood.
01:00:04
Speaker
And I said on Twitter that like every like male, male friendship that I ever write in my books is chasing the high Gansey and Ronan's relationship. um So I think to circle that back around to the question is just like, really, if you read or see or have something that you love so much that makes you feel that good. It is okay to write toward chasing that high. I feel that like passion about something really does make for the best stories and the best characters.
01:00:37
Speaker
um Like every Everything, I think, will have a different lens to it because you're writing it and it's never been written by you before. So don't self-reject or don't be like, is this too much like this? Is this too much like that? Like your unique perspective and voice on any story and any character is so necessary and so needed. And I just want to see more people, you know, get rid of that little critic in their heads that says they can't do this and just keep writing and keep trying to achieve this dream because it's
01:01:09
Speaker
hard and terrifying and publishing is like saintly racist but it's honestly one of the most rewarding things I've ever done with my life and I just um yeah I really encourage that if you have a story inside you keep working on it I love that that's my cat just came over and started sniffing at the microphone and distracted me um no that's so true and real and like yeah publishing beats you up or whatever but like the sharing of the stories like that but the act of writing is just the rewarding thing but on the like fine stories and that you like light you up and stuff i was my friend was texting me about oathbound the other day and was just like losing her mind and i was like there um and then i was like that's what like i need to write a book that makes people like go insane yes um
01:02:02
Speaker
that's like what i strive for in every book i'm writing i'm like i just need them to be a little bit feral over the character so if i all unhinge and i do sometimes i get unhinged dns that are like you know what you should do for your next book you should kill off that one character from the other i'm like whoa okay i'm writing like contemporary we don't contemporary romance that's already more feral than you intended i see i'm like i know you hate him but like i can't actually murder him Because realism or whatever. so Okay, so we are coming close to the end. So I do have one final question.
Camilla's Writing Rituals & Upcoming Books
01:02:38
Speaker
It is our for fun question, which I'm super we excited.
01:02:42
Speaker
Do you have any strange, quirky, weird writing superstitions or rituals?
01:02:50
Speaker
I used to have a lot is the thing. I think the only weird thing that I still do is that when I start a book or when I'm about to first draft a book, I go to this website that tells you how many words are in a published book.
01:03:07
Speaker
um And I look up the word count for like, don't know, like four or so. books that are in the same genre and age category. And then I take the average of those word counts. And then that is the word count that I strive for for the first draft of um my book.
01:03:24
Speaker
Why do I do this? It is because... For the love of math. It is because I actually based my like outline, my chapter plan on that.
01:03:35
Speaker
So let's say like it came out 70,000 words for the first draft. I know that I tend to write like 2000 word chapters. So I divide 70,000 by 2000. That tells me how many chapters I need to tell the whole story. And I pace out the story.
01:03:52
Speaker
by chapter in that way I always get that my first draft seemed like pretty well paced and it's because I had a total number of chapters and I wrote the story according to that but that's genius it's odd no well yes it's it's a lot of math for a writer to be doing but like it makes sense when you explain it um much math for any writer i still do so um all right well do you want to tell our listeners where they can find you online what you have coming up any promo stuff i know you love it
01:04:31
Speaker
um So yes, hi, I'm Camilla Cole. I am the author of the complete and available for sale duology, The Divine Traitors, which is made up of So Let Them Burn and This Ends in Embers.
01:04:42
Speaker
Upcoming is The Secret Romantics Book of Magic, an anthology that includes my short story, Second Class Magic, and also stories from Kelly Andrew, Olivia Blake, Catherine Arden, and so many great authors.
01:04:54
Speaker
um It's an adult romantic short story collection. My adult debut, which is a dark academia fantasy, is called An Arcade Inheritance. It's coming out in January of 2026. um My next YA is called Wicked Endeavors, and that's coming out sometime in 2026, one hopes.
01:05:12
Speaker
um And you can find all of these books and where you can buy them or add them on Goodreads on my website, which is camilla-cole.com. stop Incredible.
01:05:25
Speaker
That was so oh like smooth. yeah it was like So much information, but you just came out with it. Okay. Alright.
01:05:37
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining us on The Right Way of Life. I love this conversation. all thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. It's just always great to see you, Karis. And that was the episode with Camilla Cole. We talked about character. We talked about...
01:05:54
Speaker
how to write like authentic characters how to write and differentiate them across projects which i I um was really fascinated by her her answers there and the like how do you make sure that you're not confusing your characters when you're working on multiple projects at the same time um I thought that was really interesting yeah
01:06:18
Speaker
yeah I just I had so much fun it was really fun because we hopped on and I was like hyping her up and she does not like that i was like okay I'll take pity on you for a once but it was fun I enjoy it I like making people feel awkward because I'm telling them nice things about themselves Nice.
01:06:42
Speaker
I'm sorry I could not join because I was dealing with some lovely little tech issues. Yeah. Yeah. That was a bummer. That was a bummer. um Excited to listen to it, to edit it, and to get it out to our listeners.
01:06:56
Speaker
Yeah. And speaking of our listeners, um first things first, go find Camilla online, follow her, buy her books, be a supporter. um She's got the Divine Creators duology as well as an upcoming An Arcane Inheritance, which I believe the cover reveal is in like three days.
01:07:15
Speaker
So keep your eyes peeled. And then follow us on Instagram. You can find us on our website, the right way of life podcast.com or something along those lines. We'll put it in the show notes. Shoot us an email, leave us a comment. Let us know if you have any questions about craft that you would like us to answer. If you have any comments about the podcast that you would like us to read aloud on the podcast. um Leave us a review on Spotify and Apple podcasts so that your friends can learn that we have a podcast because we want them to know.
01:07:49
Speaker
And that's all I've got. What him what about you, Addie? That's it. Like, subscribe, follow us where you listen to your podcast. Let's go.
01:08:00
Speaker
Let's be your bestie, your pocket bestie. Truly. We're really nice. We are. Okay. Bye. Bye.