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What is a Romance? feat. Jen Prokop
50 Plays9 days ago
In this season premiere of The Write Way of Life’s ~Romance Season~, host Karis Rogerson spoke with Jen Prokop, a romance reader and editor and one of the co-hosts of the Fated Mates podcast. Karis and Jen talked about what the genre conventions of romance are; the history of romance throughout publishing; “Romancelandia,” or the IRL & virtual community of romance lovers; book recs; etc.
Find Jen on Instagram or on her website. Listen to Fated Mates here or here. Detailed show notes (including resources & books mentioned) to come.
The Write Way of Life is a craft-focused author interview podcast by Karis Rogerson & A.D Jolietta. Follow The Write Way of Life on Instagram or find us on our website. Follow Karis on Instagram and subscribe to her newsletter. Follow Adi on Instagram.
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Transcript
Return from Summer Hiatus
00:00:28
Speaker
And we're back. We're back. It's been a long summer hiatus, one whole month without the podcast. For you listeners, we were doing podcast things.
00:00:42
Speaker
Yeah, there's there's not been a break, but that's okay. That's great. But I actually hate a break. Never, never seen a break that I wanted to take.
Balancing Therapy Advice and Busy Schedules
00:00:54
Speaker
You know, I wish that I could disagree, but my therapist has scolded me so many times about, aren aren't you trying to not be busy? And I'm like, yeah, I am Sometimes my therapist will be like, okay. And she like goes back to her notes and she'll be like, here's everything that you're doing. And she starts listening. And I'm like, why are you doing this to me?
00:01:15
Speaker
My therapist just asked me to pull up my Google calendar and then it's like wall to wall. Yeah. So, yeah, I bet you have a very intense Google Calendar. You're giving off those vibes.
00:01:28
Speaker
I mean, I do. I do. I made us change to a Google Calendar and I've made us. I was all for it. I live and die about my Google Calendar. There just were a couple times that we were like trying to schedule things. and I was like, I need this in the Google Calendar. I need need to put it in the calendar. Yeah. Yeah.
Introductions and New Season Theme
00:01:46
Speaker
um Anyway, my name is Karis Rogerson. I am an author and an editor and sometimes a journalist and one of the co-hosts of this podcast.
00:01:59
Speaker
And you are? I am A.D. Joletta, a.k.a. Addie. And also a co-host of this podcast and a writer and i work in theater, my day job.
00:02:12
Speaker
Nice. And we're here. What? Oh, nothing. I was just saying I do so much art, too much. All of the art forms. um And we're here to intro season two of The Right Way of Life. This season, you may have seen, if you follow us on Instagram, hot tip, follow us on Instagram, um link in the show notes. You may have seen that we're doing, we are entering our romance era and it's going to be good.
00:02:44
Speaker
Sorry, I got distracted by my clock. um We've fallen in love this
Creating a Romance Podcast
00:02:49
Speaker
season. That's... that's what's happening and i tried to do it over the summer addy made a very cute reel and i made a form so that i could get some kisses and nobody filled out the form and so i said fuck it we're doing a podcast about romance honestly and i deleted the apps no i mean that's fair i'm not meant to find love on an app i'm meant to find love organically yeah that's if i leave the house
00:03:16
Speaker
That's real. Side note, if the Google form is still up. So anyone any anyone listening here who would like to go on a date with Karis, fill that out. We'll put it in the show notes.
00:03:28
Speaker
Right.
00:03:30
Speaker
um Yeah, I mean, it's the season of romance. I'm so excited. We've got so many episodes planned for this season. We've already got five recorded, six scheduled, or another six scheduled. Like, we we're doing really well in terms of setting things up. We've got, like...
00:03:47
Speaker
oh my god like the conversations we've been having with authors about romance about you know what it is how to write it various sub genres like they've been so good i literally have felt my brain just like level up a little bit um and i think i think there's something so
00:04:09
Speaker
Okay, I'm a romance lover, obviously, because I write romance as well.
Craft Tips for Writers
00:04:13
Speaker
But I think that even if you don't love romance or don't write romance, you will find good craft tips, like, evergreen sort of, eclectic, like,
00:04:24
Speaker
perfect craft tips because we're not just talking about how to write love we're talking about like characters and plots and how to be believable how to do chemistry which you need chemistry between your characters in a horror just as much as you do in a romance so that's my plug if you are not a romance author you will still get something out of this podcast if you are a romance author you will definitely get something out of this season agreed agreed
00:04:51
Speaker
Yeah, and that aside, just it's Sunday. It's August 31st. Tomorrow is Labor Day. Thank God. No work for me. um If you do have to labor on Labor Day, i am so sorry. And I hope people either tip you well or treat you well because that's BS, frankly.
Labor Day and Unionizing
00:05:11
Speaker
If you have to labor on Labor Day, may I suggest that you form a union with your coworkers? You only need three quarters of your folks and anybody can can form a union.
00:05:23
Speaker
And, I mean, listen, how are we?
Community Solidarity and Social Media
00:05:29
Speaker
It's, like I said, August 31st. Yesterday, Threads... I'm not even going to say why we were all so excited, but if you were on Threads or Twitter or Instagram or any form of social media on Saturday, August 30th, you will know.
00:05:43
Speaker
And you will know that the U.S. is just...
00:05:48
Speaker
We are facing and a dearth of joy and an over amount of fascism. And I do think this ties back to unions, I promise.
00:05:58
Speaker
Because I do think that community, like coming together, solidarity across classes and race and ethnicity and immigrant status and um anything else that like divides us, like coming together and showing solidarity with each other and being like, now we stand together against fascism. like that's what's going to get us through this so start a union let's go hell yeah the way we fight fascists is through unions and also sometimes bricks no that's that's that's also that's union activity throwing a brick is is a tried and true union activity let's go unions they're gonna get us out of this they fucked them better let's go how are you addy
00:06:46
Speaker
I am good.
Personal Updates: Opera and Weather
00:06:48
Speaker
I'm very busy. This is a busy time my work. We're ramping up for our fall show. and it's an opera, right? Yes, it's an opera.
00:06:58
Speaker
I'm working the opera now. um So it's a very very fun fall show. Don Giovanni, which is about, oddly enough, A um rich adulterer getting his comeuppance. Whoa. So very very timely piece of media.
00:07:15
Speaker
um And, ah been you know, gorgeous, beautiful, beautiful show that I that i love to listen to. um And, yeah, what's happening in my personal life. ah This podcast is everything.
00:07:28
Speaker
Hell yeah. Everything. Not everything. I'm dealing with wifi struggles, which has not been helpful for this podcast. um I've been on the phone a lot with my y price wifi provider complaining nauseum.
00:07:43
Speaker
And um so that's been great. Otherwise i finally got to turn off my AC yesterday. yeah know and it's not going to get hot again.
00:07:56
Speaker
I mean, who knows? I'm living on a prayer. But as of yet, it's only like 65 degrees outside. And that's been holding true for the past two days now. And yeah, I think it's fall. so jealous. 65 is my favorite degree.
00:08:10
Speaker
It truly is. I love it. I love 65 degrees. Between 55 and 65. That's like the ideal temperature that I want to live in at all times.
Holiday Plans and Citizenship Jokes
00:08:19
Speaker
I've been talking about wanting to, one, spend Christmas in Canada um in Ontario this year. And everyone that I tell, like, my friends will be like, Harris, it's going to be so cold.
00:08:30
Speaker
Oh, wait, you like that, don't you? Yes, I do. Cold is better, baby. I am so excited for Christmas in Canada. Hopefully. Fingers crossed. Knock on wood.
00:08:41
Speaker
You know, don't jinx it.
00:08:45
Speaker
do you have relatives in that area? or are you Yeah, my dad's family. Oh, your dad. Okay, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, because, it again, I'm a citizen, so... Right, you don't... remember, I'm gay and looking for a wife who can have Canadian citizenship.
00:08:58
Speaker
Right. Call back. Hell yeah. I mean, you know, ah honestly, I feel like a lot of lesbians would be jumping at that. i You would think.
00:09:14
Speaker
And also, speaking of lesbians, you know what's...
Book Reading and Writing Projects
00:09:18
Speaker
so sad to me what um my my love my girl my hero my icon chapel rhone is doing four pop-up shows in new york city in september that's not the sad part that's actually amazing the way they did the tickets though is you like registered and then the this ticketing system would check to make sure you were a human and and not a bot and then they would invite people to buy tickets guess who did not get an invite oh
00:09:49
Speaker
Not at all. Me, to be clear. No, I registered for all four dates. Never heard anything. I was like, they were like, you're on a wait list. And I was like, well, that's so sad. I promise that I am so gay and such a fan.
00:10:04
Speaker
you have any friends who got off the wait list and can like give you the locations? Can you like stock out the pop-up places? Oh, I mean, it's in, um, it's pop-up shows, but they're like in a stadium.
00:10:15
Speaker
Oh, okay. Okay. I was gonna say. I feel like if you just do the tent life that like somehow there's going to be a ticket available. Somebody's not going to show up. Yeah. Someone will have like, you know, diarrhea the day of and not be able to make it.
00:10:30
Speaker
Oh my God. Imagine how sad you'd be if you had like coveted tickets to a chaperone concert and then you had diarrhea and couldn't go. I would hate my body for that. That's a tragedy. Yeah. I like some folks would be crazy enough to wear an adult diaper. Yeah.
00:10:47
Speaker
Ew. Yeah. um I'm picturing it now. I'm trying not to. Can we say something else? oh and something What have you been reading and writing? like Oh, yeah. Okay, thank you.
00:10:59
Speaker
What have I been reading? I am reading, currently, I'm about to finish um Elizabeth Stevens' is All Superheroes Need PR, which is... so delightful is an adult romance and it's a um a black female main character and superhero who is like alien being and he was like a free they like it's this really cool concept right world where there's like 48 super beings crash landed on earth 13 years ago or 21 years ago
00:11:32
Speaker
twenty one years ago Whatever. One of the two. They crash landed on Earth. I think it was 21 years ago. And they don't know where they came from. And they, have because of the way the world works, they've been divided into villains and heroes.
00:11:48
Speaker
And then the Roland, the main character, the hero was a free agent and then became a hero and is working with the main character, the female main character.
00:11:59
Speaker
And they're like falling in love. And it's so sweet. And so like he like he is the epitome of like he is obsessed with her. He like saw her one day and was like that. That's my woman.
00:12:11
Speaker
And he's like made a fire, right? So that's his superpower is he can like just like start fires. So anytime you're in his POV and someone's like, oh, they looked at him they looked at her and he's like, I will burn your organs. who And it's so good.
00:12:27
Speaker
um I'm like 70% through and I'm just having a ball. So definitely highly recommend that one. I am also reading...
00:12:39
Speaker
ah Cold wire and also bury our bones in the midnight soil now Longtime fans, listeners, will know that those are indeed the same two books I was reading at the end of last season.
00:12:51
Speaker
um That is because because of burnout and other reading commitments. I've been reading like my books for fun so slowly. and it's actually pissing me off. like At this point, I'll have been reading Barrier air Bones through across four months.
00:13:07
Speaker
And like the thing is, I love the book. I'm having a blast with it. I just don't have a lot of time to read it because of other problems in my life. What are you reading? I just finished The Assistant to the Villain series, which I'm a little bit, I don't know why I thought that it was a finished trilogy. Like when I started reading it, I thought that it was three books and that the newest book had just come out. So I decided to pick it up because i was like, I need, like, I'm in the mood for like a funny rom-com romance.
00:13:37
Speaker
I mean, and it's It's like Once Upon a Time meets The Office. So like super, super hilarious, um swoon-worthy. we love a We love a corruption arc for a main character. So good.
00:13:48
Speaker
um But it's not a trilogy, heads up. And the the fourth book is still, you know, it is going to do something. I will say at least by the end of the third book, there was some sort of closure of some plots that I was like, I don't feel bereft in the same way that I...
00:14:06
Speaker
that I could have been bereft if there was only one book out. But it was really good. It was a fun little romp. It was surprisingly, for all of its, like, it's one of those, it's one of those, you know, series that, like, bends the rules of, like, what is, like, what is fantasy? What is contemporary fantasy? Like, how many you know, and and because it plays in that in the realm of comedy. So there's a lot of language that's very culturally relevant today.
00:14:33
Speaker
um so I'm sure if this was read it read in like 100 years, this would be like, and this is representative of what the slang was in the late 2020s. you know Okay, first of all, we are in the mid Right.
00:14:48
Speaker
right early to mid for the series right you're right early to mid 2020s sorry you're right thank you I just have to be pedantic it's my greatest trait no you're right you're right although I do think that some historians will fuck it up in in some writings in 100 years, because that's what historians will always do. and then And then a future historian like you will be like, actually, this would be considered the mid-20s. Cotaceous period.
00:15:18
Speaker
Yes. And then those two historians would have a lengthy battle between themselves with ah constant essays and papers. and then Until they fall in love for real. Yeah, exactly.
00:15:29
Speaker
God, I love it. Yeah. ah So yeah, so that's what I've been reading. I just finished it. um I'm trying. i'm I've picked up another book, but I'm not sure. um haven't like gotten into it yet.
00:15:41
Speaker
You know, like when you're in the first like couple chapters and you're like, I know I'm going to like this. i just have not i've not like gotten to the hook yet. I'm not. Not in that. um So I'm hoping hoping to get there. But otherwise.
00:15:55
Speaker
oh and I i also have to finish the Schwab's Barrier Bones. and and midnight so i It's so beautiful. I'm really enjoying it.
00:16:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'm like 75% of the way through. i actually have to finish it because so I'm in a book club in real life. And I asked them to to choose this as the book so that it would force me to read it and that I would a attend book club because I constantly flake on them.
00:16:21
Speaker
um So I have to read it and I also can't flake. That would be so funny. When's the book club meeting? Tomorrow. oh God, Addie.
00:16:31
Speaker
No, but I have tomorrow off. It's fine. i've only i only have to finish the last 25% of the book. And also this podcast episode that you're currently listening to, dear listener. Yeah, but that's fine.
00:16:42
Speaker
I'm not working. I'm not working. Right. It's only 25% of a 560-page book. What's that? Yeah. I mean, I've read 500 pages in 18 hours before, so...
00:16:49
Speaker
yeah yeah i mean i can i've i've read five hundred pages in eighteen hours before so fair you know i have full faith in myself what about writing what are you working on Um, I finally super duper, like fully sent off the contemporary rom-com to some in beta readers. So like, that's done.
00:17:10
Speaker
not done. Big thumbs up for that. Yeah. I think there's, I think there's one moment that I did put like halfway to through where I was like, I think that there's another chapter here and I think this has to happen in it, but I can't be arsed to actually write it. So I might just cut it.
00:17:25
Speaker
Let me know your thoughts. Okay. Okay. But otherwise it's finished. Nice. And i that was one of those moments where I'd been going back and like rereading it and I was like, oh man, this needs to this needs to happen, but i I really just need to chuck this book off of my computer to other people. um So I sent that off and I'm working on the um ah the bi-gender, the retired bi-gender spy book that I want to self-publish. Nice. It's like
00:17:56
Speaker
historically fantasy. um It's called, I'm kind of like called Her Majesty's Secret Art of Poisoning. Very fun, very fun title. Amazing.
00:18:07
Speaker
Yeah, and I've got like a 40 year old protagonist who is having to deal with the consequences of her 20 year old self and faking her own death for her. And then she meets her first love who thought she was dead.
00:18:20
Speaker
And he's, yeah, it's bad. Yeah, so, and it's because her son is getting married And her son with her first love. No, no, not with her first The first love is the uncle to the girl that her son is getting married to.
00:18:33
Speaker
So like they met for the pre wedding dinner and she was like, fuck. And he was like, Victoria. She's like, let me explain.
00:18:48
Speaker
I was a You were the mission. The mission ended. And i didn't want to leave you hanging. just died. Yeah.
00:18:58
Speaker
I figured that would be easier than breaking up with you or like telling you that I'd been using you for a mission.
00:19:07
Speaker
oh that's unhinged. I love her already. Yes. So unhinged. um So I've been having a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. Because the whole book is her trying to not get back into spycraft or to like do bad things. And she's like, I'm just trying. But then people keep dying at her son up to like preceding her son's wedding. Oh my God. That's amazing.
00:19:29
Speaker
So she's like, what is this? I just, I'm supposed to be retired. It's my son's wedding and it has to happen. Yeah. And then, you know, shenanigans. So shenanigans and shenanigans.
00:19:42
Speaker
Shenanigans, which really that's all plot is, is just shenanigans. Yeah. Fun and games, baby. Karis, what are you writing? um So I am so close to being able to send my revision of my adult romance back to my agent. i am So I was revising it the last time we spoke.
00:20:03
Speaker
I spent about two months doing like a pretty hefty revision, sent it to some friends in early August, got their notes, did another round, and now I have it in Word and Word is reading it aloud to me and I am like,
00:20:15
Speaker
line editing and tweaking as I go and i made it through the first 10 chapters on Friday and I have something astonishing to report are you ready for it yeah I think the book is like really fucking good.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yay! um This is my adult romance that's like aspiring artists and famous actress both get fucked over by the same shitty man. So they come together to take him down and then fall in love.
00:20:42
Speaker
And it has been such a blast and like just something so delicious about writing a ah man get his comeuppance in this time and age. Yeah.
00:20:57
Speaker
Something so delicious. Very cool.
Romance Genre Basics with Jen Prokop
00:21:01
Speaker
But yeah, we are our first episode of the season is an overview of what is the romance genre? What is a romance novel? What is the history? what are some excellent books? Like,
00:21:14
Speaker
just and we talked noted romance expert jen prokop also known as at jen reads romance one of the co-hosts of faded mates which is one of an excellent podcasts that i highly recommend um we will link it in the show notes and jen and i had like an hour-long conversation so buckle up you're in for a good one Jennifer Prokop's lifelong romance habit began in seventh grade when she found a bag of remaindered romance novels in her grandmother's basement.
00:21:46
Speaker
Jen co-hosts the romance podcast Faded Mates and writes reviews for Kirkus. Let's go. Let's go. Amazing. um works.
00:21:57
Speaker
It works. All right. um To our listeners, you might have heard this in the intro that we are going to record at some point, but Addy is not here for this recording. So it is me and the incredible Jen Prokop.
00:22:10
Speaker
um who is oh at jen reeds romance online yes you might know her from faded mates um which is an excellent romance podcast that is i'm not gonna say it's one of well it's one of the reasons i have a podcast because like i was listening to a million podcasts and was inspired um but work Anyone can do it. It's amazing. The tools exist.
00:22:34
Speaker
All you need is what's in your brain. Yes. And we are here for episode one of season two of The Right Way of Life, the romance season. And obviously we've got to do a basic episode. What is a romance?
00:22:48
Speaker
You're be So that's what Jen's here for. Jen is the expert. Yeah, so I think that's my job. Yes, exactly. you know, it's so funny because we have, as this is sort of going to appear, we will be starting a season eight of Fated Mates. And romance is all we talk about.
00:23:10
Speaker
Occasionally, we will like mention another book. and And then we'll literally be like, not a romance. And so I feel that I am qualified, although I did even this morning was like, why would they ask me? I don't know anything.
00:23:25
Speaker
And I was like, I'm an idiot. You're like, okay, well, there's, yeah, no, you're, you also edit romance novels. I do. And that actually is... was a pretty fun thing to do so yeah and it requires it ah i would say a pretty hefty knowledge of the maybe we put a pin in that we can talk about that later i feel like that's it is interesting to to to edit but i i think we should talk about like the genre yeah so my first question very very broad how do you define a romance novel
00:23:57
Speaker
So I define a romance the way everyone defines romance. And this is really important for you to know because it's tricky, right? like And sometimes it helps to think like capital R romance, the genre requires something we all refer to lovingly as the H-E-A. And sometimes we'll talk about the H-F-N.
00:24:15
Speaker
And that's the happily ever after, right? Or the H-F-N is the happy for now. And I'll talk about that in a minute. But basically like – The problem is small R romance is a word we use all the time to talk about like oh of ah a relationship between people where there's chemistry and maybe sex and right like ah candles, chocolate and, you know, dildos or whatever. And so regular toppings. Right. Exactly. And so it can be a little confusing because, of course, then people are like, well, why isn't.
00:24:50
Speaker
you know This thing I read where people are sort of experiencing a romantic relationship, not a romance, right? So it has to have a halfway we're after. Happily for now, the HFN, an easy way to think about that is like, let's say you're reading a YA romance.
00:25:07
Speaker
These are kids. Nobody, i mean, listen, some people do find the love of their life and when they're sophomores in high school, but We don't really expect that they are going to like stay together forever at the end. Right. So, but yeah at the end of the romance, they're in a happy, good place. They are in some sort of agreement that they are like together and that like the future ahead for them looks bright, but we understand that they're kids.
00:25:35
Speaker
Yeah. um So that's like a good example of something we might call an HFN. And then you think the other thing I would say is it should be like the main plot.
00:25:45
Speaker
Right. So, for example, there might be a book where, you know, someone gets together with someone and then at the end they're happy. But like the whole entire story has really been about like a family or something. Right. Yeah.
00:25:58
Speaker
um and i have like my personal way of kind of determining whether or not it was the main plot line which i think is helpful i'll just tell you yeah which is like if there was a part of the book that made you cry Was it between the people who were like falling in love or was it between like this mother and her teenage son finally understanding each other or these two best friends who had a falling out that get back together? Right. So oh that's so good.
00:26:27
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I feel like what makes it the main plot to me is like the highest emotional moment of the book. Because the thing that often isn't said as much as like the whole point of romance is feelings.
00:26:43
Speaker
right you're gonna have feelings you're gonna feel feelings as a reader hopefully the characters are gonna feel feelings as characters because of what they're going through and so that's like another way you're like it was it is it a romance well does it end happily and then like did the most intense feelings moment of the book did it was it driven by these people falling in love Yeah, that's such a helpful way to think about it because my brain was like, a plot, B plot, C plot. Well, you know, that's another way of looking at it. But I love the just like, where's the height of emotion? coming Yeah.
00:27:17
Speaker
And I think the thing is, is when you're a writer or an editor, you do a lot of talking about it. Like a plot, B plot, C plot means something. But like when you're talking to a normie. They're like, what do you mean?
00:27:29
Speaker
have a couple friends who read but don't write and they'll be like, yeah, you know this and I'll start spouting all my like craft terms and like deep, deep publishing insight and they're like, I didn't want to know actually. like i didn't yeah When did you cry?
00:27:42
Speaker
Right. yeah what made the crying book or what yeah So I feel like that's kind of helpful.
Understanding Romance Readers
00:27:47
Speaker
Yeah. I think it also then helps people understand why romance readers and it's listen, I think it's tricky and I try to be calm about it. But, you know, if you're making a list of like the best romances and you're putting on like Anna Karenina yeah and Romeo and Juliet and the Fault in Our Stars, oh these are and what we say, let me let me give you another word for it. It's like these are great love stories.
00:28:11
Speaker
right These are stories about people falling in love, but they are not genre romance. Yeah. And I think I see this on threads all the time. I'm sure you do, too. Oh, yeah.
00:28:24
Speaker
Week and a half now, it seems, someone pops up and they're like, but it's got a love story. It's got to be a romance. And it's like, well, we're not putting it down by saying it's not a romance. We're just setting expectations by saying whether it is or isn't a romance. Because if you open a book expecting a romance and it's Anna Karenina, you're going to be like right devastated and also very mad.
00:28:46
Speaker
Yeah, and look, I mean, I think that this, it is confusing. i don't, like I said, if I meet like a regular person in the world who doesn't know, of course they don't know. i think as a romance reader, the the reason people get real irate is sometimes we get people sort of entering into the genre space and being like, i am going to
00:29:11
Speaker
you know, improve romance, it's smart romance. It's, you know, it's literary romance. It's upmarket romance, like whatever bullshit term. I'm sorry. I don't know if I can swear on your podcast. You actually, you absolutely can swear.
00:29:25
Speaker
And that, feels very like if you love romance you love it all and you know and we're not really interested in you coming in to fix us or or capitalize on us right like you're gonna call it romance because you want the romance dollars right but you don't want the romance life right yeah absolutely because there is There is the, like, some people will roll their eyes at you when you say you write romance or read romance. and
00:29:59
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, people, i started out writing YA contemporary. i got a lot of eye rolls for that, too. I'm, at this point, used to it. I roll my eyes right back. um But there are definitely people who can't necessarily wrap their minds around maybe writing a book that some people will frown upon.
00:30:18
Speaker
Yes, course. I think those people, I mean, I frown upon a lot of books. Sure. I don't think it matters if they're raking in their millions or for thousands. However much they're raking in. Exactly.
00:30:32
Speaker
um Okay, so now that we've established what a romance is, I kind of want to talk a little bit about whatever you want to share about like the history of romance in publishing.
History of Genre Romance
00:30:43
Speaker
Okay. So if you can hit, like it doesn't have to be a thesis, but just like a nice timeline overview. Yeah, so I would say, um listen, if you look back, so do you do, like, show notes? Can I, like, send you a bunch of shit later? You can. Absolutely.
00:31:02
Speaker
Yeah. So... There's kind of two answers to that question. So when we think about like a genre romance, it's about 50 years old. And most of us would look to like Kathleen E. Woodywiss's Flame and the Flower as kind of being like the first like genre romance. Right. That like really like kind of came on the scene and was like really inventing or like kind of, you know, publishing was like, oh, we see something is happening here.
00:31:31
Speaker
And but that, so now that's not a book I would like really recommend anybody dive into right like a dated like romance is a very responsive to the time it's time and it's time and so you know you're going read it and be like what is this.
00:31:47
Speaker
um So that's kind of like the start of like a genre romance. But i think we then look backwards even further to kind of the roots of the genre. And a lot of people, ah Jane Austen and Pride and Prejudice is sort of where a lot of people will start.
00:32:03
Speaker
um There is a great book dealer. Her name's Rebecca Romney. And she um has ah wrote, actually like put together a romance collection And there's a PDF of the collection. And she goes all the way back to like Pamela, right? And other things that like sort of were written in England, know, England times, um through that had like sort of like, you know, kind of like women trying to figure out like who they were and what they wanted. but Pride and Prejudice, I think most people would agree is sort of like, that's ours, right? In some kind of way.
00:32:41
Speaker
and then... um Another really big thing people talk about um is a woman who also wrote mystery, and she is deeply anti-Semitic.
00:32:55
Speaker
And so this is something that we don't really talk about. I mean, it it depends, I think. um Okay, wait. i am I'm flaking out on her name right now. It's...
00:33:09
Speaker
ah
00:33:11
Speaker
okay wait hold on sorry let me i no worries um sorry everybody uh georgette hair is her name and she is to many people like kind of a person who looked at pride and prejudice and saw a way to sort of like replicate it and created like the format of like what we would sort of now call like the regency romance and Okay.
00:33:42
Speaker
And like sort of, you know, the like I said, the problem with Georgette Heyer is that it's like she has books that are in fact so anti-Semitic that they are often now published with like chapters and things missing.
00:33:56
Speaker
Oh, wow. some That's how hardcore it is. So this is, again, like not a person I'm going recommend. there are people who will so who sort of say like, oh, I remember that my grandmother used to read her or whatever.
00:34:10
Speaker
So those were, so like, you know, kind of Pride and Prejudice, Georgette Heyer. And then we have like a big, don't know, like sort of in the 30s and 40s, Mills and Boone comes online, right? And they're a British publisher who published, it started off as these like nurse romances, like these stories about, you know, like a nurse and a doctor, right? and And there's lots of sort of stories like this.
00:34:38
Speaker
And Mills and Boone, Sort of kind of publishes these like little tiny chapter books, you know, kind of for, you know, decades throughout the 50s and 60s.
00:34:49
Speaker
And they eventually become stateside, become Harlequin. And you've heard you've heard those, right? Harlequin books and sort of category romance. And so, like, those were the contemporary, right? Like, contemporary stories written about people in that time.
00:35:08
Speaker
Whereas Georgette Heyer and, and um you know, pride and pride well Pride and Prejudice was contemporary to Jane Austen, right? But not to us. And Georgette Heyer in, like, the 1910s and 20s essentially is, like,
00:35:24
Speaker
writing historical romances kind of Pride and Prejudice like and then a lot of the really big Kathleen E. Woody Wiss and other kind of those people are also right writing historical romance so essentially all of those forces kind of merged together in the 70s and eighty s and become like romance capital R like what we are kind of familiar with now as as the genre Okay.
00:35:56
Speaker
Wow. i there's this like part of my brain that's like, I wonder what happened in the seventies and eighties that made it. And then ah the other part of my brain that's like like, that's maybe like someone else, like do that research later.
00:36:09
Speaker
Here's what I will say. I actually have an answer for you. Like, I think one of the big things that like we talk about kind of Sarah and I, right. She's my cohost on Faded Mates is that. that in the 70s, of no-fault divorce becomes legal. Women start having the rights to their own bank accounts.
00:36:28
Speaker
Birth control exists, and yeah so does abortion rights. And so all of a sudden, you and you get tons of women then like sort of entering the workplace on their own.
00:36:40
Speaker
So as there's a huge like kind of forward momentum in in feminism, right, You get like a matching ah genre rise up that recognizes women as consumers and writers of their own stories.
00:36:59
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world. And from the 70s, 80s to today, do you are there like...
00:37:10
Speaker
I don't know, like, themes in the history of the romance novel, like, genre, or, like, sub-genres that kind of come to prominence at, like, well, obviously. Yeah, ah for sure, right? And so, it's easier, actually, to talk about sort of some of that, like, I would say, like,
00:37:24
Speaker
from like the mid 90s on right so yeah um in the mid ninety s you get sort of like the standalone contemporary okay so unlike now it's just all historical and these are stories that are kind of sexier right spicier whatever um and a lot of those are about working women right i mean when you go back and you read kind of either category or standalone contemporary in the 80s and 90s.
00:37:57
Speaker
A lot of them are like stories about women at work. ah Oh. And I think that, like, so for example, Susan Elizabeth Phillips wrote a whole story, a whole series that's kind of still ongoing for 20 years called The Chicago Stars.
00:38:14
Speaker
And again, like some of these, i don't I don't really recommend you read the first one, but in the first book of this series, which I can't remember the night name of right now, because sorry, right there's a million books in my head. A woman inherits her father dies, and he owned an NFL team, and she inherits it.
00:38:31
Speaker
And she's the first woman, and this is like probably 1993, right? Who essentially is a woman who it's like, how dare a woman have anything to do with sports, right? Right.
00:38:44
Speaker
So you get a lot of those stories have to do with like a really another great examples. There's a really great author named Jenny Kruse. These books have really stood the test of time. One's called Bet Me.
00:38:56
Speaker
in which a woman is an actuary and this is like the first book that actually had like a fat heroine where she was not just a lot of the old historicals are like you know he could span her waist with all that bullshit oh yeah the look you know a lot of that and so and she's an actuary and you know but her her mother is constantly like shaming her because she's not thin like her work accomplishments mean nothing if she can't land husband and look a certain way yeah so then just like everybody else after nine eleven there was a just as like the world kind of turned to superhero stories you get a huge up
00:39:40
Speaker
uptick in paranormal romance and these are stories about like vampires and werewolves and right ah like supernatural creatures who love humanity and want to protect it and right that whole thing oh yeah right and then you get and then twilight which is you know a juggernaut leads everyone knows twilight yeah leads to 50 shades of gray which gets published right at essentially like the height of the worst the low of the economic downturn and you get this billionaire hero who just wants to take care of her and this book spawns then like a decade of
00:40:26
Speaker
the billionaire romance right everyone's billionaire everyone's rich it's all like a lot of lifestyle porn right yeah and then like another big kind of turn happened when sarah j moss essentially kind of invents what we now call romanticy um right which is now like you know fourth wing and girls and their dragons and yeah right its own juggernaut of yeah but it also kind of makes sense because you have kids the kids who are like aging into romance like grew up on a lot of fantasy
00:41:05
Speaker
right yeah that one series that shall not be named but like lots of books by rick reardon and right yeah i mean i think of like the the mid 2010s which is when i started reading y.a like y.a fantasy like yeah it was just a really great time for that yeah and so those readers are now like well i still want to read stories like that so you know it makes sense that like romanticy is sort of gonna like come in so it one of the things we say on faded means is that like Romance is really, it like, it's responding to its time.
00:41:41
Speaker
Sometimes it takes a while to figure out, like, what that is. But, like, Sarah and I did um like, when the pandemic happened, Sarah and I were like, what's romance going to do?
00:41:52
Speaker
What's going to turn out? And then last year we did a whole episode on essentially, like, the creation of like,
00:42:05
Speaker
The funeral home and ghost romance. Right? Yeah. Like these were not, there were no romances in funeral homes. You know what I mean? Yeah. And now there were like a ton of them. yeah so I never thought to put those two together, but that makes so much sense. Yeah. And so we did a whole episode sort of talking about...
00:42:27
Speaker
these and i am not really interested in sarah really don't know she loves a dead body fine so she like read a lot of like the funeral home ones and i ended reading a bunch of them that were like a really specific kind of ghost story and that ghost story is um the ghosts are stuck on earth and it's the people who have to teach them to like let go And i was like, these are stories about grief. These are stories about how we're letting go of the people that we've lost in the pandemic and the way that we as a country have found no way to say goodbye to them. Just a million people died and we all fucking moved on.
00:43:03
Speaker
And so it sometimes takes a while to see how romance is happening. I don't know, chewing through whatever it is society is doing. Yeah, which, I mean, i think that makes sense both in terms of publishing timelines and also, like, as a writer, like, it takes some time to write a book and it also takes a long time to sort of marinate on right and what you're actually trying to say. Like, sometimes I'll realize what a book was about two years after I wrote it and I'm like, oh. That's what it was about.
00:43:32
Speaker
Fascinating. Yeah. yeah Okay. That is... Wow. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. It's like my brain is like, whoa. um i love that.
00:43:45
Speaker
um Sorry. My computer, it's like on a thing that like tilts. So my computer keeps sliding toward me. It's like being on a ship. so um So I would love to talk about Romance Landia.
Romancelandia and Community Evolution
00:44:02
Speaker
Okay. Or like the romance community, the roman reader and writer community, what it looks like online, how it shows up like IRL, how it's maybe changed. um how Yeah. Those were actually the three questions I was going to Yeah. So Romancelandia is like the name of, I guess, what you would maybe call like the romance fandom.
00:44:22
Speaker
Right. um And it I would say like the, It was like Twitter birthed it, just like Twitter birthed a lot of things.
00:44:34
Speaker
The thing that's really, in now and now I think it's far more like
00:44:41
Speaker
like splintered, right? um I think that there's a really big romance community on threads. I think there's a really big romance community on TikTok.
00:44:54
Speaker
Yes. But I don't think that those are like the same. Mm-hmm. Right. um And i can talk a little bit about maybe what I think like the differences are um And then like you have now more than ever, like essentially private romance communities on people's discords.
00:45:14
Speaker
yeah Right. So, you know, and some of those are specifically like a really big one, probably the first discord I knew about was, um, Kit Roka, who are its two authors, right, Bree and Donna, um had a Discord for years called The Broken Circle.
00:45:32
Speaker
And I think that they were probably the first people to really kind of realize, like, social media is a bit of a cesspool, like right? like let's like Like, let's extract the community and move it somewhere.
00:45:44
Speaker
i don't think it really, um I think it's still pretty active, but I would just say, like, to me, they were probably the first people to, like, see that as a possibility um but now that they're you know the thing I would say that's really interesting about like the tick tock of it all is um a lot of the pandemic and tick tock kind of happened at the same time and many many many new readers to romance found or rediscovered romance during the pandemic and so there's a lot of tiktok
00:46:32
Speaker
romance people like romance influencers and readers and right who essentially like don't know and or and they don't have to i mean i one of the things the greatest things about romance i think is that There's not a ton of gatekeeping.
00:46:45
Speaker
Right. It's not like. You know I hate to say it But like you try to get into comics. And it's like 800 guys. Who are like yeah. But have you read. you're like shut up. Right. So I don't.
00:46:56
Speaker
I don't want to. I don't want to do that either. But I think that the TikTok romance community. Tends to be very like. You know we learn. We read Emily Henry. And we decided we love it. And now we are romance readers.
00:47:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. right if that makes sense um the threads romance community tends to be very author driven yeah right our podcast i think tends to be very reader like right like the reader community um because that you know it's me and sarah and then like our 40 000 listeners or whatever yeah And then, um so I think they're it's just like bifurcated a little bit. Like there's different people in different areas.
00:47:41
Speaker
The one thing I would say is really notable about Romancelandia in general is that those the... the line between being a reader and a writer is very small to non-existent a lot of readers in the romance community want to be writers and most of the authors are also readers and so yeah there's a real sense of like i mean i feel like i am very unusual for like i've
00:48:12
Speaker
I'm not a writer. I don't want to write. I don't have that skill. I'm a great fucking editor, but like I can't. don't have people up here. Right. But I think that is notable that there's this.
00:48:25
Speaker
Like a lot of romance people on social media. Want to be authors. I have noticed that I watch a lot of booktube for some reason. I'm not on TikTok very much because I hate my phone. I need a computer. i just can't do it.
00:48:40
Speaker
um So I watch a lot of booktubers and a lot of them, they'll build there and then they'll be like, yeah, so I also write. And it's like, well, that makes sense. like I write because I read. right why Why would I expect other people to not have the same sort of trajectory?
00:48:57
Speaker
right um and I do think romance is one where um because romance readers in my experience and understanding tend to be like voracious and i mean you can read a lot more 300 page romances in a year than you can read 1000 page sure epic fantasy tomes so you're reading you're reading a variety of authors you're reading indie and trad and this and that and then you ah you've read like 100 romances one year and you start to think maybe Yeah, I do this Yeah, and like the the more you read, the more ideas you have, like the more you kind of populate the world with your own sort of imagination and stuff. so
00:49:36
Speaker
How do you think... and So I wasn't writing romance in the days when there was like a romance like official. Yeah. The RWA. I was aware of it, but I wasn't like part of it or anything.
00:49:49
Speaker
um And now it seems to me at least that the main way people connect in person is through like cons.
Romance Writing Events
00:49:57
Speaker
um Yeah. It's like i went to Love Y'all its first year.
00:50:01
Speaker
um Obviously, people on threads are familiar with Romance Con and its implosion. I'm pretty sure I talked about it once on the podcast. um And there's just like a lot of them. Steamy Lit Con too. Right. like And Romance Bookstores.
00:50:17
Speaker
And I think that is... Personally, I mean, I think it's great. I love it. I love to go and meet people in person and, like, start up a conversation in a signing line. ah But I... And I think it's a great way to, like, sort of introduce readers to authors and authors to readers.
00:50:34
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah. That was just something that... I think that's true. I think that what... You know, it's really interesting. I was talking to a romance friend this morning and she was kind of like, why isn't there a clarion for romance? And i was like, yes, good question.
00:50:49
Speaker
So there are kind of two that I know of, like kind of two really specific. If you are interested in like writing romance, I feel like.
00:51:01
Speaker
the craft like kind of like the craft of it right this is why like yeah I'm so excited that they'll have this seat you'll have this season of the podcast I can now refer people to right um yeah so steamy lit has an arm called romancing the craft that they have now held ah couple like a one essentially a big one day seminar um That is, you know, theyre the the last one was at like Rutgers in New Jersey. Oh, yeah.
00:51:31
Speaker
And the next one is going to be this fall at Stimulet Con. It'll be like a day before whatever. Oh, cool. And I think that that group of people who do it, Adriana Herrera is one of them, and Mel, who owns the Stimulet bookstore, are like really committed to the idea that like – It's, you know, there is a specific romance craft and we should have a way to learn it.
00:52:01
Speaker
And so that is, if you're interested in romance writing, I would say that's like my first, like, check out romancing the craft. Yeah.
00:52:13
Speaker
In Chicago, there is, so the Chicago North Romance Writers, they used to be like an RWA group. Every other year has a big, like, it's for authors.
00:52:25
Speaker
And um it's on even years. So it's like in the spring of 2026. And I think it's – sometimes it's at like an O'Hare airport and sometimes, you know, a hotel or whatever. And then sometimes it's downtown.
00:52:41
Speaker
i think next year is a downtown year. and um the women who run that are terrific. And it is like a two-day conference. And, again, like it's just all craft.
00:52:53
Speaker
Yeah. So those are, and because the thing about cons is they're reader spaces. Yeah, you can have like one or two panels for writers, but the rest of them got to be for the readers.
00:53:07
Speaker
Yeah. yeah well if you're So if you're looking for those, those are the two that I think of as being. And then, you know, you get people like Sarah, who I do the podcast with. I'm sorry, keep saying that. I'm like, what are the Sarah's rather?
00:53:19
Speaker
Only that Sarah's. she like once a year will have like a zoom like so some people do like on zoom and she does hers on conflict because you know that's like i keep seeing that in her newsletter and being like i want to take this yeah and it's not that expensive it's you know what i mean like for for kind of what you get and yeah so i do think that there are then but you have to be plugged in to see who's offering those things yeah i was so sad because i live in brooklyn and i discovered i learned about romancing the craft like the day after it happened and i was like are you kidding me i don't live in california i can't go this fall like i missed it right i was really bummed but those are great and i now i need to go to chicago in the spring of 26 for that one i'm chicago everyone should come to chicago
00:54:07
Speaker
I really loved Chicago. I was there last year and I had so much fun. yeah It's the best. Lakefront Living is Yeah, no, it's the best. So dreamy.
00:54:19
Speaker
Okay. One thing, since you mentioned Sarah, I remembered... And I will share this story for the podcast and also for you, but I was at Sarah's New York City launch for these summer storms.
00:54:31
Speaker
Oh, fun. And as I was sitting there, i was like thinking of like how I got started with romance readers and or reading. And I was like, okay, so it started with... I was like 26 and i it was red, white, and royal blue.
00:54:43
Speaker
And I was like, wow, this is great. Let me find more. but I had never really read anything spicy. lead readers of the listen Readers of the podcast.
00:54:53
Speaker
Our listeners will know that I was raised very strictly conservative evangelical, so I didn't have access to podcasts. oh yeah things like spicy romance and then i discovered casey and then i just like kept going and then i was like and then my historical um gay gate gateway drug was sarah's books yeah and then that led to all the rest of them and then eventually it led to me writing my own romance novels which i think was really fun and i got to like tell sarah that and it was really exciting for me it is exciting seeing that
00:55:25
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah, I just, I, I wrote, yeah, anyway. um But speaking books. Yes. No, I'm going ask this other question first.
00:55:36
Speaker
Okay. What is your biggest, like, soapbox item that you have when it comes to romance?
Crafting Original Characters in Romance
00:55:41
Speaker
Like, something where you're like. Oh, let me get on my soapbox and tell you all you went wrong. Yeah, maybe you've had a couple drinks or few drinks or you're just like in the mood to talk. Let it all hang out, yeah. yeah um Here's what I would say.
00:55:54
Speaker
There have been lots of different like pathways into romance over the years, right? So if you listen to Nora Roberts talk about how she, right? Like people are literally like, I, you know, read these books and I typed up mine and I sent it off to New York in a box or whatever. Right.
00:56:09
Speaker
One of the biggest pathways now into romance writing is through fic which makes sense right it totally makes sense like it's sexy it's spicy and it's you know the this is kind of the slush pile in some ways for publishing right like everybody i mean and i think this is like back to the whole like kind of like what brings people ah listen, I would love to believe that everybody who's writing romance is reading romance, but I think sometimes people are like, well, I could be the next Ellie Hazelwood and, you know, be right, take my thing and then, you know, be literally swimming around in pools of money like sc screw you.
00:56:51
Speaker
Because the the belief out there is that it's like very easy to make money in romance. And you guys, that's just obviously not true. Yeah. just not true right it's because the it is so glutted there's so many people there's so many books and it's self-publishing is so big yeah right it's not like okay there's three mysteries coming out this week and they're all published by prh and then therefore no it's literally a book coming out every minute right so please just know that that it's really hard so my soapbox item is that thick
00:57:30
Speaker
you I think in fic is like you're like I love this character and everyone who reads this fic also loves this character and therefore i can take a shortcut right to I don't have to build the character someone else has already done that work for me and we all know what this character is like and I really have found that a lot of the like sloppiest books I've read are people who I think I'm like, yeah, I don't know who that fucking is.
00:58:02
Speaker
Right? I don't care if you think Lewis Hamilton super fucking hot in your little F1 show. That actually is not enough to make a good book. Right?
00:58:13
Speaker
And so I think one of the things that I'm finding is that, you know, like, the arc of a fic is not always the same as the arc of a great romance novel.
00:58:27
Speaker
The problem is, is that... you know, because publishing is like buying them wholesale, right? Like there was the Raylo years, right? Where it's just like, well, now all we're going to do is publish Raylos.
00:58:39
Speaker
like So many Raylos. I'm going to tell you, I read a lot of them and I was, it got to the point where I was literally like, this sucks. I wonder if it's a Raylo.
00:58:51
Speaker
And it was, I'm sorry. I know that's harsh. I would never, you guys, the greatest thing about this is unfaded mates. I'm like, I love everything. Yeah. come on other people's podcasts i'm like this is garbage no not relo right that makes sense because if you are used to not needing to develop your characters because they are pre-existing characters um because everyone who's reading your fic like yeah i'm not gonna read a relo fic if i don't know anything about star wars right so but i'm like but it's not free on ao3 anymore now it is a 15 dollar ebook guess what
00:59:21
Speaker
right you need to do some work now i think makes sense with some yeah right and i think the other kind of related part of that the like ficification of it is that ah trope is not a plot right a trope is not a plot and so i think what i see now is people who are like okay so it's a relo only one bed enemies to lovers and i'm like You didn't write anything. Like, that's not a story. Where's the story? happened?
00:59:53
Speaker
What is the story? Yeah. Right? And so I do think that there is, you know, great writing that is happening in fic.
01:00:04
Speaker
I'm not saying there isn't. Of course there is. Because i see how it moves people. and Right? But I think that that isn't going to make a great romance novel.
01:00:19
Speaker
You know, and i I don't really exactly see sometimes the work I think it means to take it from one place to another. It's the something I've been thinking about is I just finished a ah pass at one of my first adult romance novel that I ever wrote. I was thinking about it and I was crashing out because I like finished the revision and was like, well, this sucks. The whole book's broken. Throw it in the trash.
01:00:45
Speaker
ah you know you just gotta it happens everyone you just gotta have to roll with it but i was an editor i get to do that to people so it's fun for me yeah but it's like you can be a good writer and you can be a good storyteller and those can be different skills and the best like for books for romance novels you have to marry the two and you you have to like structure your story and you have to have like I don't know, like, something there.
01:01:14
Speaker
Something has to happen. you got and you all have to happen. Yeah, it was like, my characters are just cardboard cutouts, and i was freaking out, and my friends were like, you do this every day, Kara. It's like, let it go.
01:01:27
Speaker
come on. Yeah, I mean, and so I think that's something, I guess that's my soapbox item, is sort of like... The craft matters. Yeah, craft matters. And like, because romance is a genre, there's a lot of really specific things that make for a good romance novel that are going to make your reader...
01:01:45
Speaker
like a really happy, right? And so um I think that that's part of the thing is like, you know, learn what those things are, right? Learn what are.
01:01:56
Speaker
Yeah. A really popular craft book that, you know, they get dated and they sort of like kind of go in and out of style. But um one that's probably...
01:02:07
Speaker
ah I don't know, eight years old now, so maybe on the edge of it, someone's going to write a new one. It's called Romancing the Beat by Gwen And I think it's just like a really, the biggest sort of thing that makes me laugh now is like, she was like, okay, it's like 50%. They should probably be in bed by now.
01:02:26
Speaker
that makes me just like drifting further and further towards the end. And I i mean, I think I know why that's happening, but whatever. It pisses me off. Yeah. um But other than that, like the character squirt and the way that that all. So if you know, you just have to learn the beats of a genre romance if you're gonna be successful with it.
01:02:47
Speaker
I literally have that book open on my Kindle at this moment, like my Kindle app on my computer, obviously. on and Right. I don't why would i use a smaller screen when I could use my ah real laptop screen?
01:02:59
Speaker
um perfect yeah i was ah having like a mid revision crash out to my friends and i was like what if i don't know how to write a romance and they were like well we think you do but if you need to like prove it to yourself read this book and you will learn something too and um so i'm very excited to dive into it yeah and it just really like lays out the sort of like the arc of like the character like like the romance arc and the character arcs and yeah it's great And one thing ah that I have learned is you can always, like, some of the best books break the rules, but you have to know what the rules are. You have to, like, be able to do you have to be able to to follow the formula before you can tweak the formula. Of course. And you know what? Writers, I think, are familiar with that idea and know it. But, yeah, it's real true, right? Like, if you're going to break the rules, you have to.
01:03:51
Speaker
You know kind of what you're doing and what you're hoping to achieve by breaking those rules. and To give a really weird allegory, it's like if you're cooking and you have a recipe and you're like, what if I traded the sugar for oman Like you have to know what the ingredients are to be able to swap them.
01:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. and I'm not even a chef. People know I hate to cook, so it's I can't believe I came up with that. Good for me. No, it's a good... Cooking analogies often are good writing analogies.
01:04:20
Speaker
and Yeah, oh yeah, like the let your plots simmer, you know, so many great cooking, writing...
01:04:28
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway. um Can you share a favorite romance hero or heroine of yours? Yeah. Now I've got a look at my list. it's I'm also going to ask you to share like some books.
Book Recommendations and Reviews
01:04:40
Speaker
So like multiple recommendations and questions. I've never read a book. Okay. um hu Some of my favorite. Oh, okay. ah Oh, you know what?
01:04:52
Speaker
I am going to talk to you about. Let's see. Um. favorite romance hero or heroine is that the question i can do either or just romance characters i really loved yeah like the lead characters it doesn't matter yeah yeah yeah okay yeah um okay i you know a romance series i really liked is uh by genie chin the first book i think is called the second book is called return to cherry blossom way and it's three sisters and And the thing that i really liked about this about this series is um I am very interested personally in like setting
01:05:32
Speaker
And what what you have is in the first book in the series, ah the but series is called Blue Cedar Falls. It's called The Inn on Sweet Briar Lane. And um June wo is a, like, essentially, like, kind of holding down the fort trying to keep her family's bre bed and breakfast open. It's like a real classic romance plot, right? But it's a small town and, you know, like, you know, how are we going to keep the those you know the everything in business?
01:05:59
Speaker
and
01:06:02
Speaker
Into town comes ah Clay Hawthorne. He's an ex-soldier. He's going to open a bar. And, you know, everyone in town just thinks he's, like, no good, you know? And this is, like, real classic romance stuff, like right? like And the thing, though, that I really liked about this series is in the first book, it's June. In the second book, it's her sister, May.
01:06:25
Speaker
And May had actually like left this town. These are like Chinese American girls like got moved to this town when they were girls. And June kind of fit into the town and was able to like look past kind of the racism from the town.
01:06:42
Speaker
And May was like, fuck this place. I'm getting out of here. And it really, like, over the course of the two books, and then they have, like, a younger sister in the third book. But, like, the first two books, like, that relationship between May being far away and June kind of staying.
01:07:01
Speaker
One of the things that I think romance does really well is, like, like family stories. Whether it's found family or family family. Yeah. And I really tend to gravitate towards, like, I don't know, like,
01:07:16
Speaker
ah this kind of thing right um so i really love that series like a an example of a like a found family series i love there's a series called the stage dive series by kylie scott i talk about the series a lot there's four books in the series because there's four men in this band and the first book is like a whi you know they woke up in she wakes up in vegas and she's married this rock star right um the second book is like the Like, I am not actually kidding, like ADHD drummer.
01:07:48
Speaker
And like this, you know, kind of girl that he kind of moves in with just to like avoid some family stuff going on. The third book is about the lead singer. um That's probably, name is Jimmy Ferris. And that's probably one of my all time favorite books is. Okay. um But the thing that's really interesting to me about these books is like the connective tissue is these four band, but all of the books are heroin only point of view.
01:08:14
Speaker
Oh. Right? But they're not in the band. hey And so they are, and I think that's just like a really fascinating choice, right? So it's like all of these women, the but like, I think it's a really powerful, like, look at like, kind of like what stardom does to these men and how like you can sort of tell a great story about them, even though none of them are the point of view characters.
01:08:41
Speaker
that to me is like a real like it's like a it's an older series too probably 10 years old but like just like a real powerhouse of a series i love yeah that it's a real feat to like ah really tell a character story without them in the pov i'm trying to do that with my novel because it's single pov and i'm i sent it to my agent he was like hey karis the love interest needs a story yeah she needs a she needs a plot too and i was like right right sorry thought i did that good point it's like yeah it's hard to do right it's hard to yeah so that's really cool okay yeah and then i'll talk about one more which is some of these are like kind of on our like best books um
01:09:25
Speaker
I'm often really drawn to books where I'm like, there's no fucking way I'm going read that book. No. And then I read it and think, I have i have been convinced. And so an example of this is a book called Mistakes Were Made by Meryl Wilsner.
01:09:40
Speaker
Yes. the reason I was like, no way, is the two women, right? There's a sapphic romance. Yeah. cassie is a senior in college who has a hookup like a one night stand at a bar like literally like gets busy with an older woman in the parking lot in a car and the next morning goes out with her friend to breakfast to meet her mom who's in town and the mom is the one she just hooked up with and i was like there's no way like there's no way
01:10:13
Speaker
And yet it was one of my favorite books of that year because I just think Meryl was so smart about the way that they wrote. Like there were so many choices that sort of like made it so it was like threading the needle of sort of me loving it instead of being like, oh man, you're going to yeah you know college weekend and hooking up with young people. What do you think what's going to happen, Erin?
01:10:36
Speaker
So I just think Meryl, it's an example of ah real a book that tackles like a really truly crazy premise and and just leans right into it and makes it makes it really work yeah nice so those were three that i just like love those characters because i was like what's the pickle that they're in bra right yeah and how do they like yeah and how is falling in love gonna gonna change their life right yeah there is so much just from like a writing level there's just so much to consider when you're when writing the romance because it's like you got to have the romance you got to have the the plot you got to have the characters they both have a change so i was like why why didn't i do all this in my first draft and it's like well because it was just yeah too many things yeah you got a layer layer layer yeah right
01:11:32
Speaker
um And then what are, where is it? um Some standout romances that maybe have like defined the genre throughout the years.
01:11:43
Speaker
Okay. That's a great question. um Sometimes I like to answer this question by talking about like the different sub genres. Right. So romance is really big. Yeah.
01:11:57
Speaker
Now when I ask people, like, people are like, I might want to read a romance. I'm kind of like, okay, well, what do you want? Like, what's a TV show you like? Like, and sometimes I ask that, like, what's a TV show or movie you've liked recently? And that kind of helps hear me.
01:12:10
Speaker
But, okay, so in the mid-90s, this is like the age of historical romance. There a really, ah listen, what I tell people is, like, if you don't like this historical romance, you might not like historical romance.
01:12:23
Speaker
And it's called Lord of Scoundrels by Loretta Chase. and it is i mean as the name implies oh one hell of a scoundrel right sebastian the duke of something or whatever um and the woman he falls in love with her name is jessica and they're in paris together at the beginning and have to like she's sort of um i don't know it's just deeply romantic deeply sexy about a man who
01:12:54
Speaker
ah like a real classic kind of romance hero especially in like a male female romance um a cishet romance is essentially like i've never felt a feeling i do not need love that is garbage it's only gonna drag me down and then they fall in love and are like holy shit i cannot live without this person and that is a very deeply embedded in my dna that is just like so delicious like i i just i love to see a man brought down by a woman right yeah me too love of a woman but you know and that like listen there's a lot of great romances like that um
01:13:32
Speaker
Another historical romance that I that or author you should know is Beverly Jenkins. She again has been writing for decades. Her first I don't think it's her actually her first historical romance but her second is one called Indigo.
01:13:48
Speaker
and this is set after the civil war the main character hester is a is was formerly enslaved and the reason the book is called indigo is because she was in south carolina like working with indigo plants and her skin her hands are stained and she is now a conductor on the underground railroad in michigan And the book opens with a man, essentially, a right, who is traveling on the railroad with people, I think, right? He's a conductor. And she's just, like, a way ah way station person. um Has been attacked.
01:14:25
Speaker
And she he's, like, hiding out in her home while she, like, a nurses him back to health. And he is essentially almost, like, you know, like, from...
01:14:36
Speaker
He a free, ah yeah he's a freedman in Michigan from a wealthier kind of family. And so there's like these class issues about kind of the differences between what it means for them to be black in America, you know, kind of in Michigan in the eighteen you know seventy s race um Beverly Jenkins writes a terrific historical.
01:14:59
Speaker
Yeah. Starting with that one. she Another great one by her is called Forbidden, um which is ah The Man is Passing. That is I've read that one. Yeah.
01:15:11
Speaker
Pretty sure I heard of it on Faded Mates. Because I was familiar with Beverly Jackins. I just hadn't read them yet. right. like you're like, what do I read, right? Right. There's so many. Yeah. um So she's another great, like, historical kind of person.
01:15:25
Speaker
um And I think those are people who, like, these are books that have, like, really stood the test of time, right? Like, I would, you know, they're, you know, if when you think of, like, Fabio, those are often like judith mcnaught and like some of those books are just harder to read now right like but i think like lord of scoundrels and beverly jenkins and then like sarah's books are other great historicals lorraine geese um right like these are historicals that are really you know kind of i don't know like just classic historical romances but the great news is that now we are getting historical romances that have
01:16:00
Speaker
um like beverly jenkins is sort of famous for being the first black woman to write historical romance with black characters but now we have queer authors writing historical romance with queer characters and some of them like cat sebastian is probably someone who you know ah right just i'm actually reading a cat sebastian right now so i'm like Yeah, right. and I love them.
01:16:23
Speaker
yeah Right. Everyone loves them because they're great. Like, right? Yeah. um But then you have, like, Alexis hall who has written a couple that are more recent. One's called, like, Something Spectacular or something.
01:16:38
Speaker
I don't know that one. And these are, like, almost, like, campy. over the top right like just like really like you know um like a totally different vibe um kj charles writes amazing historical romance and is a british author um one of my favorites it's not everyone's favorite but it's mine it's called band sinister and there's a ah guy and his sister kind of living in like
01:17:10
Speaker
not like they're dirt poor right their family there's really like nothing for them and the you know the bad guy next door and his group of you know men that he's always hanging out with and you know they're just terrible people and um guy's sister falls off her horse on that man's property and you know she's gonna die and then like all of a sudden guy gets like swept up into the band sinister and he is like wait this is i didn't even know i could be gay right and I I like love that book it I've read it probably 700 times so those are great historical romances if you're looking for historical romance um yeah contemporary romance is like a little harder right like kind of like what is what does it mean yeah you know what I mean so I can give you maybe some um oh you know who else writes so sorry a great historical romance this year's historical romance is a
01:18:09
Speaker
um Adriana Herrera. um I heard the third book in her series that is about essentially Paris. The Leonis. Yes. The Los Leonis is...
01:18:24
Speaker
so good yeah it's just it really is and it's that's a book that really like meets the moment and the third book um which is let's see it's a caribbean harris in paris and then the second one is an island princess starts a scandal and then the third one is the duke tropical rebel gets the duke yeah like come on what are titles um she is running essentially like a women's health clinic up below you know what i mean like hidden in the streets of Paris and he's a duke who figures out what she's doing and helps her it's great um yeah so these are books that are just terrific
01:19:04
Speaker
I think there's something. ah So I write sapphic romance um pretty much explod exclusively. But i love reading all, like, pairings of romance. And I especially love when it comes to, like, male-female, like, cishet romances. I love that it like that it can give you hope, like, in a time where a lot of people are feeling...
01:19:26
Speaker
bad about a lot of men yeah it can remind you like and i thought of this when you were talking about the duke finding out and like helping her like there's a lot of men who wouldn't do that but it can remind you that like but there are ones who will and like that can give you hope to you know keep believing right exactly right that there are people in fight all over um um So contemporary romance is like that's where it's like drinking out of a fire hose.
01:19:57
Speaker
Oh yeah. And I mean you can know. Do you want a mafia or do you want a sports or do you want what? What do you want? Right. Allie Hazelwood I think a lot of people love her books and she's prolific and you know there's like kind of she now has enough that you can like her first one's like a total Raylo and like but yeah she now has like a kind of a kind of paranormally Omegaverse one and you know, a college sports one, and right, so Allie's Great. course, the age gap romance of the summer. Right, right, of course.
01:20:29
Speaker
um Christina Lauren, i I think if you're just looking for like a straight fastball over the middle, you're going have a great time reading it. They really know the job, and every book just goes down real easy.
01:20:44
Speaker
it Then I would really recommend Christina Lauren to people. um I just think that they are there are two people who write that yeah they just know the job and they've been doing it for a long time um kennedy ryan writes terrific like deeply emotional romance and she has just finished up the third book in her skyland series which is like three friends who like live together in atlanta suburbs and again she's like really emotional like you know if you're just like i would like
01:21:19
Speaker
every emotion wrung out of me than a kennedy ryan book um and i would say uh let's see um who else i'm looking at my list here um uh you know alexis daria writes great great romances she's got ah like a series that just also ended that's um yeah all like kind of set around like kind of hollywood adjacent right um the ah and memoir is the latest one and in the first book the um
01:21:59
Speaker
She's like, they're two actresses and then like it's her and her cousin, the cousins are the other characters. um And then if you just want like the most beautiful prose in romance, I think Kate Claiborne is the answer.
01:22:11
Speaker
Okay. Right? Like she just writes, I think, I don't think anyone cares about sentences as much as Kate does.
01:22:20
Speaker
I haven't read Kate's books, but I do get her newsletter, yeah which is because of my newsletter addiction. um And I do think she wrote a whole newsletter about, like, sentences. Yes. Like, why they're so important. And it was, I mean, it was beautiful.
01:22:34
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah I see that. I mean, T.J. Alexander writes really fun um contemporary romances. There's one called Triple Sec, which is about, like, essentially a polyamorous character.
01:22:48
Speaker
it's really hot loved it so I mean contemporary is almost harder to like narrow down because it's just like so many people these are great recommendations and very like solid like great books and also great like intro books think yeah like I tried to really think you're not really sure you're not going to start with like mafia romance or dark romance or like right like there's so many like that I'm just like you know read a couple just normie what's your feet first like what's your toes first you know and then you can you know email me and be like okay I'm ready for
01:23:28
Speaker
somebody get fucked with a knife got you let's go but yeah there's listen there's a time for everything 100 and on that note is there anything else that you would like to say or that you think should have been asked um you know i guess i would just say this like romance readers we love the genre and But we're all I'm I don't like proselytize to people about romance and because we are really used to people just sort of thinking it's like garbage or mommy porn or whatever.
01:24:04
Speaker
and you know what I would say is like.
Depth of Romance Novels
01:24:08
Speaker
Just like you would not say to like a murder, you know, someone who writes mystery, like, oh, do you love doing murder? Right? I think romance readers think like a lot of people and writers, right? A lot of people ask like, you know, that it's just like a pure interest in like sex or whatever. And i think what most of us would say is like, I'm not ashamed that the books have sex in them, but that is not what the books are about.
01:24:35
Speaker
Like, right? The books are about relationships. And because they're about adults falling in love, a lot of those books have sex in them. But just like, you know, but you can find books with no sex. and You can find books that are like erotica that are all sex.
01:24:50
Speaker
But if that's all you think romance is then, ah you missing you know, yeah, you're missing out. Like these are stories that are just about human relationships.
01:25:01
Speaker
so many other genres that don't care about human relationships and so that's i think what like the niche that romance fills if you just and for me i think the other thing i would say is like every person in like a romantic relationship whether it's like a man and a woman or two men and a woman or seven elves and a fair maiden and every single one of those characters is like important
01:25:34
Speaker
And their thoughts and dreams and hopes for like who they want to be and the kind of family they want to have and the kind of life they want to live is important. And so I think the appeal of romance is just that it's like a deeply human, even if it's about elves and a fair maiden, it's a deeply human genre because it's just about the way that we feel about each other and how hard it is to trust like youre your tender little soul with someone Who could yeah either crush it or cherish it. It's kind of a risk.
01:26:09
Speaker
But yeah it's always it's not well it's worth it. In romance, it's always worth it. It's always going to work out. In real life, um you know they can crush you. But in in a romance...
01:26:22
Speaker
Even if they crush you, and then they will be crushed by their own idiocy and come crawling back in that. And they will be grappling. yeah like Exactly. So, yeah.
01:26:33
Speaker
That is a beautiful note on which I will end the recording. Yeah, and if you want to hear 700 episodes about me talking about romance, then you should listen to Faded Mates. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. i will I will say that as a ah listener.
01:26:46
Speaker
Great show. And that's on romance novels. An introduction to the genre, to the craft of writing.
Learning from Experts and Community Evolution
01:26:55
Speaker
Just kind of like a big overview.
01:26:57
Speaker
I had such a good time talking to Jen. I was like mildly intimidated, I'm not going to lie. Because one, Jen is like a podcasting professional. And two, she has been reading and like working with romance for far longer than I have. So I was very much coming at this like recognizing that like...
01:27:14
Speaker
She knows a lot more than I do. But it was so fascinating to learn, like, what she had to share about the history of romance. um But also, i really loved, like...
01:27:27
Speaker
Talking about the romance community and how it's evolved over the years and the various like what book talk has had, like how book talk and book threads sort of intersect or don't intersect um as the case may be.
01:27:45
Speaker
And i don't know, i just had such a fun time chatting with Jen. i hope y'all who are listening enjoyed it. I hope you learned something or got something out of it, even if that was just like a smile or a laugh or a good book recommendation.
Engagement and Future Content
01:28:00
Speaker
um i will let you know ahead of time that we are asking every single romance or every single guest for like book recs on like multiple fronts.
01:28:11
Speaker
And a lot of them are coming at it from like a craft lens. So you're going to get a whole syllabus through this season. And it's going to be amazing. But that's all for episode one We would love it if you would find us on Instagram. Leave us a comment to let us know what you thought.
01:28:31
Speaker
You can follow us on Spotify. Leave a comment there as well. You can follow us on Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and or, well, ideally and, review.
01:28:42
Speaker
And feel free to shoot us an email. Um, our email is the right way of life pod at gmail.com. Let us know what you think. If you have any requests, um, that's all for today.