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What are harmful tropes? Feat. Briana N. Cox
3 Plays1 minute ago
In the ninth episode of The Write Way of Life’s ~Romance Season~, host Karis Rogerson and A.D Jolietta chats with author Briana N. Cox about common romance tropes and their downfalls. They cover the origins of modern romance tropes, how some tropes can enforce white supremacist ideology, and more importantly, how to prevent perpetuating harmful tropes entirely.
Find Briana N. Cox online. Order their books, including preordering Indignant (out March. 20 2026). And follow her on instagram.
The Write Way of Life is a craft-focused author interview podcast by Karis Rogerson & A.D Jolietta. Follow The Write Way of Life on Instagram or find us on our website. Follow Karis on Instagram and subscribe to her newsletter. Follow Adi on Instagram.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:28
Speaker
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to a new episode of the Right Way of Life podcast with your host, Karis Rogerson, and also... A.D. Joletta! The delay there was... So good. i Sorry, I should have warned you that I was going to do that. How are you, Addy?
00:00:46
Speaker
I am having a week. I think we're all having a week, um both ah culturally as a member of the United States. God. That's the only thing I think that we're going to say about about that.
00:00:59
Speaker
um i Well, I will also say, put me down as anti-war. Yeah, yeah. So you do with that what you will. Yeah, I think this podcast is anti-imperialist. we Yes.
00:01:12
Speaker
You know, we do not support the Empire in any capacity.
2026: A Utopian Year?
00:01:18
Speaker
Yeah, so just not that note that down. Put a little checkbox next to against these...
00:01:26
Speaker
events um but yeah so we are um the hosts of the right way of life obviously which you're listening to right now which is a uh crop focus author interview podcast if you've been listening since last season we thank you with all of our hearts if you're new here we thank you with all of our hearts as well um also if you're new here like and subscribe no please we dig Um, but it is, it is January 4th, Sunday, January 4th, and we're coming at you from a brand new year. It's 2026 now, which I think is fake. Like that's a fake year, right? That's like a year that we've been talking about since like, yeah, it's not real. The passage of time is a scam.
00:02:11
Speaker
Yeah, like that's it that's a year that I will read about in a science fiction book and go, oh, so far in the future yeah when they have flying cars and utopias. Good Lord almighty, i wish. i'd i'd I don't want a flying car, actually. I feel like the airspace would get too crowded, but yeah a utopia would be fun.
00:02:31
Speaker
Generally. Possibly. Maybe. Who knows? i mean, there's a lot of books, right, about that question of a utopia. There are a lot of books. Yeah.
00:02:40
Speaker
There are. Subjectively true.
00:02:44
Speaker
So many books. Yeah, no. that You're right. that The books do make it seem like a utopia. Wouldn't be great. But I think that if we just exercise our creativity a little bit more... We can all live in the cottage.
00:02:56
Speaker
e That's a heated rivalry reference for those of you who aren't in the know. Which at this point, who isn't?
Media Gatekeepers and Cultural Impact
00:03:04
Speaker
like i Literally not even the hosts of the fucking New Year's Eve ball drop. They're aware of it too. the cultural like juggernaut that heated rivalry has become. like Literally everyone I know is into it. I'm hearing about it at the grocery store in my small hometown in Alaska. yeah and then usually butting into the conversation going yes hello hi here to talk about the queers i would be gay savior no it's unreal it's unreal and i'm jealous um i'll just say it i'm jealous of ilia and i'm jealous of shane and i'm jealous of all the actors and the authors involved but i'm so happy for them too because it's like
00:03:46
Speaker
What a, what a thing. I was telling my therapist this where i was like, I think we had grown. a lot of people had been pointing out how like refreshing it is to see new faces, Hudson and Connor, like get this kind of spotlight and attention and stuff. And I was like, you know, I think it like, it allows us to believe that these things are possible because for so long, the only people we've seen achieve great success are like no names, Nepo babies. Yeah.
00:04:13
Speaker
properties that already exist straight white cis able-bodied and um it's just like it reminded me that like dreams can come true and it can happen suddenly but it can also happen after 10 years but like your life can change and i was like you know what let's take this metaphor as far as we go we can tear down the empire it is possible good things can happen Good things can happen, but i think it's I think it also highlights the fact that like the gatekeepers have to make a conscious choice to let those good things happen, right? And I think that the the story of like Jacob Tierney, the um creator of the show, going to a bunch of studios and them trying to change the story.
00:04:55
Speaker
like That's the gatekeepers being having their heads up their asses and not knowing what they had in front of them. And like thank God for Canada. We love Craig Media. Yeah. Thank you, Kray. We love Kray Media. um And HBO Max obviously saw the demand or something and and took it on. and I mean... i give HBO Max zero anything. mean, I don't give them credit. it I'm just saying I'm glad that they released in the U.S. Oh, yeah. They took the distributor.
00:05:21
Speaker
yeah For my sake.
Personal Connections and Mental Health
00:05:23
Speaker
Sure. Sure. But, yeah, no. HBO Max didn't do anything. They just, like...
00:05:31
Speaker
capitalized. This cute little Canadian love show, I guess, will add it to the stream. Holy shit, why are people watching it 12 times a day? Well, sir, it's because it's good. And in some of us are mentally ill.
00:05:44
Speaker
Also, people are horny. The people are horny. They're horny and they're and they and they long to yearn. Oh my god, the yearning! Okay, no. Oh my god. i am I'm so mentally ill about this show that the only time in the past six weeks that I have felt mentally well is while I'm watching episodes of this show. Like, I genuinely... Every other moment I'm thinking about it and I'm like, oh my God, I'm unwell. I watch the show and I'm like, life is good. And this the episode ends and I'm like, well, fuck this. This this TV show is like one of the few that i've that I've watched recently where I'm like so enamored by what's going on that I sometimes like actually miss things because I think I just like dissociate momentarily. Okay.
00:06:26
Speaker
Like I will see TikTok edits of ah an episode that I literally just watched and go, my God. When the fuck did that happen? i'm having the opposite experience. I am like in it. I am locked in. I see edits and I'm like, I caught that baby. I've watched the show five times already. Let's go. go i have to rewatch it because i because the edits remind me, oh, I did miss that. I fully was like... like no I've watched every episode at least three times.
00:06:54
Speaker
That's incredible. Yeah. Well, no, I think I've only watched episode six twice, but that's because I was at my friend's house and she has children. And um i was in public spaces for the last week and a half. And I wasn't going watch men fuck and with the children.
00:07:09
Speaker
So... Also, I had a thread go like a little viral. It was like 6,000 likes, which is more than I've ever had. Because I cried over episode 6. I'm not going to give spoilers because it's a beautiful scene and you should watch it yourself. But when Yuna and Shane have their little heart-to-heart outside.
00:07:29
Speaker
And um that broke me. I spent a whole day crying about it. Genuinely. So... Yeah, good show. You should watch it. It's a good show. Not you, but like the listeners, if you haven't watched it. If you have watched it, just like message me. My name is Karis. You can find me at Karis S. Elizabeth. Send me a DM. We'll talk about the show.
00:07:49
Speaker
Karis with a K, just like Paris. Anyway. Also, I'm actually going
New Year Resolutions and Current Reads
00:07:53
Speaker
to make this pitch here. If you're watching that your and show and you're a lesbian and you're like, man, I really need to find um a really attractive, hot writer in New York City to date me, slide into Karis's DMs for that too.
00:08:06
Speaker
I'm blushing. moving on. ah This was supposed to be us talking about the new year. New year, new love. That's what all the astrologers saying, right? like This is the year that everybody finds a partner or whatever it gets together. Oh my god, they have been saying that. Like, Taurus, every single astrologer slash witch on threads is like, Taurus, you're finding love this year. And I'm like, you know what?
00:08:30
Speaker
I'm coming after all of you if it doesn't happen. Every last one. And I'm going to do my part with this podcast. I'm just going to every. let Let's go. This podcast is actually um just so a way for me to meet women. So far it hasn't worked. um But I still have hope.
00:08:48
Speaker
I mean, this is our romance season. What a way to end the romance season. That would be chef's kiss. But speaking of romance, what have you been reading lately?
00:09:00
Speaker
um What a great question. i have not. i i i actually I'm just going so honest. I've not been reading in like the past two weeks.
00:09:11
Speaker
That's fair. it's ah and america It's been a busy holidays. I've been watching romance heated rivalry. Obviously, let's go. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's it about about the reading. What about you?
00:09:25
Speaker
I have just started Hecate the Witch, which is a YA novel in verse by Nikita Gill. And so far, absolutely stunning. Like, i picked it up.
00:09:37
Speaker
I think maybe on Thursday or Friday. and I've just been like thinking about it ever since. um And I've only read like 30% of the book, but it's just, it's beautiful. um I also today started Behind Five Willows, which is June Hur's new ah historical way. And I'm just going to tell you this.
00:09:55
Speaker
I think it's Joseon, Korea, but it's Pride and Prejudice. Ooh. With book bands. Like, hello? Amazing. It's so good already. the The characters, I'm obsessed with them. They both have a POV, which I think is brilliant.
00:10:13
Speaker
I'm just, I'm 11% in and I'm like kicking my feet and giggling. Literally, at the coffee shop, kicking my feet and giggling. It's been so good. and love that. That's amazing.
00:10:25
Speaker
Yeah. What about what have
Writing Projects and Series Challenges
00:10:27
Speaker
you been writing? I know you just finished something, didn't you? I did. I did in a in a hazy fever dream. I just finished an 85 page horror ah like script about a D&D game that goes awry. Oh, my God. Yes. I've been so excited for this one.
00:10:41
Speaker
Yeah. No, it's real. It got real. dark Like, it's it's a hot mess, obviously, as all first drafts are of anything that you ever create. But um it got darker than I thought it was. Yeah. I am so excited.
00:10:52
Speaker
um Anything else? ah What have I been writing? I was trying to write this novella that I've been working on, but I've had to take some time away from it so that I can work on outlining, well, brainstorming and outlining the sequel to Nat and Cammie.
00:11:09
Speaker
um I'm doing... When I first decided to to indie, publish Nat and Cammie, I had the idea to do a sequel that was new Adult that spans um the years after high school, and then a third book that was Adult.
00:11:25
Speaker
that is like the capstone to their story. And there were just going to be like three traditional novels. But then I was having a really hard time finding like the reason for book two to exist because I have a really good grasp on book one, and obviously, and a really good grasp on book three. But I didn't really know what book two was other than like the bridge. So I decided to just like skip ahead. so I'm working on book three. I'm going to write it. And then I think book two might be like a mixed media novella.
00:11:53
Speaker
that just like covers like bridges the gap but it'll be like short and sweet and like there's gonna be like email exchanges phone transcripts a couple in like in in scene moments um uh letters that kind of stuff and i'm i'm really excited for it but i need to know i need to have like a really firm grasp on how their story ends before i can write the in-between That makes sense. That makes sense. You've got to... Yeah. A lot of writers always talk about, like, when they when they write when they get down to write a story, they want to know at the beginning and the end, and then they figure out the middle.
00:12:26
Speaker
And, like, I've known how their story ends, or at least I've known how the third book starts since I... before I started... before I drafted the first chapter of Nat and Cammy. Wow. Like, I've always known, and it's because that was how I got into the book, was I wrote a scene...
00:12:39
Speaker
um
00:12:43
Speaker
from Cammie 10 years down the line. And then I knew how to start the book. And I do think, if I do say so myself, the opening line of Nat and Cammie is like the most iconic thing I've ever written.
00:12:55
Speaker
stan it.
00:12:59
Speaker
Yes. I can quote it from memory, but I won't. No, no, no. You can't give our listeners sneak peek. They're just going to have to find it out themselves, wouldn't they? They're just going to have find it out. Also, say this again over the next two episodes, but I do have a cover reveal in exactly one month.
00:13:17
Speaker
It will be on February 5th at LGBTQReads.com. So I'm stoked for that. I have seen the final cover. And it is glorious. Hell yeah. And then the book is published this June, this Pride Month. 23rd. Pride Month, baby.
00:13:34
Speaker
And pre-order links will come soon. What? Pre-order links will come after the cover is live. So like literally February 5th. Oh, fantastic. Wow. It's already up for pre-order for e-book on Amazon. But like, who's going
Romance Tropes and Cultural Implications
00:13:47
Speaker
to do that? There are so many better ways to buy the book, including Kindle Unlimited. There go.
00:13:54
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway, let's talk about the podcast. um As y'all may know, if you've listened to the pre the previous two episodes in this like little mini series, we are doing a series on tropes, romance tropes specifically. And we did our first one, episode six was with Joe Segura. And it was on just tropes, like what are they? And I had so much fun with that conversation. And then episode seven also had a ton of fun talking to Rachel Griffin about Only One Bed. That, I was, like, shocked that we got a whole episode out of there, but it is a rich text, I believe. And so this episode we're talking about, i guess, like, tropes, the possible...
00:14:37
Speaker
rob not Roblox, but like things to be wary of, right? Like, like how do i think it's how to approach tropes from a perspective that recognizes that predominantly romance as a genre specifically has become popular and a lot of the tropes originated from a white supremacist framework.
00:14:55
Speaker
And so like, how do you interrogate these tropes and not perpetuate harm while also continuing to have those tropes? Right. And we spoke with um Brianna N. Cox, who is an author of the upcoming Indigent, which is ah horror. um So they're not a romance author, but you'll see, you'll understand why we reached out to them. And I think it was a really lovely conversation. so Brianna N. Cox is the oldest of seven children and a first-generation academic. She holds a B.A. in Cognitive Science from Swarthmore College and an M.S. in Speech-Language Pathology from Purdue University.
00:15:37
Speaker
Brianna has been a writing fellow through the TN Playwrights Studio, Stowe Story Labs, Bend Base Camp Feature Lab, Stage 32 Feature Competition, and the Moonshot Initiative Feature Accelerator.
00:15:49
Speaker
She has won Best Script at the San Francisco Independent Film Festival and Best Tennessee Writer at the Nashville Film Festival. She has additionally been highlighted in Variety Magazine and on the 2024 Next List of Screenwriters to Watch For. Brianna writes genre stories from the margins, illuminating the experiences of overlooked demographics with authenticity, dignity, and dark humor.
00:16:13
Speaker
Oh, hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of The Right Way of Life. I'm your co-host, host, co-host, Karis Rogerson, and I'm here with um Brianna N. Cox.
00:16:27
Speaker
How are you, Brianna? I'm doing great. Thank you both for having me on for today. Yes, of course. I am very excited. I know when I first reached out to you, you were like, well, I'm a horror
Interview with Brianna N. Cox
00:16:38
Speaker
writer. And I was like, that's okay. Because i think I think we're going to have a great conversation today. um But before we do dive into that, could you sort of introduce yourself and your your work and your um your books to to our listeners? Yeah, definitely. So I am Brianna.
00:16:58
Speaker
I write too much stuff all the time. So I currently have a book coming out that's dropping March 20th called Indigenex. It is horror book.
00:17:11
Speaker
So be aware of that before you pre-order it. But that is the main thing I've got going on right now. i am also a screenwriter working on a lot of scripts that may or may not be produced, but you know, they pay me, so that's fine.
00:17:31
Speaker
So I've been doing a lot of writing since essentially like 2018. So it's been a bit, I've been in the weeds of the craft for quite a while at this point.
00:17:44
Speaker
So I started talking more about it on threads, which is like part of Instagram around last year. I'm glad I'm really kind of getting more into the education side of things because I do do my own like writing and craft workshops, but they're just like sequestered in one room for like one semester of year. So I like talking about it outside of that as well.
00:18:10
Speaker
reached out because on i think it was the November 19th you posted a thread um a thread on threads and it was talking about tropes which we are doing for the podcast we're doing like a little section of um episodes on tropes and it was I really thought that your post was like both educational and also like direly needed like it was kind of like a Like a warning sound, like a cautionary, like yellow light being like, hey, just be aware. Like there can be a lot of really negative, conservative leaning, like problematic things attached to these tropes that we talk about and really like rave over. when we talk about romance. And so i will link the thread in our episode description so people can go find it and follow you, of course. But are you able to just like introduce like what that was like? What can you summar summarize for us like the main thrust of your points in that thread? Well, the main point that I have been really trying to hammer home just throughout my entire account as well, so it's not just that thread, but you can find, know, talking about it a bunch, is just that, like, tropes in the end of the day are genre conventions. They're storytelling conventions.
00:19:31
Speaker
of They have good origins and bad origins and neutral origins. Yeah. And being aware of those is very important if you're trying to tell a story intentionally. And also if you're trying to understand a story with more intention.
00:19:47
Speaker
And a lot of, especially genre fiction, has roots in not even necessarily problematic histories. But just like it existed for years and years and years and years in one way.
00:19:59
Speaker
And certain things got very popular in that very specific context. And because they are now part of the genre, part of those conventions, they keep popping up. But that does not divorce them from where they first began.
00:20:14
Speaker
and that is what I've been trying to nail down much more in just my overall media literacy commentary that I'm doing. Yeah, fair enough. What are can you share like a couple, i guess, of examples of some of these tropes and some of their origins?
00:20:33
Speaker
it's so So I believe with the thread we are talking about, I focused a little bit more on romance tropes. But a lot of, yeah, I think, yeah, based have like, it's in the name, what people consider to be romantic tropes.
00:20:53
Speaker
and And what is considered to be romantic oftentimes has these very traditionalistic leanings, which isn't to say that like they are inherently bad or that if you like these things, like you got a problem, but it's stuff like, um oh, small town romances where big city girl goes to a small town and learns to be herself. Like that has roots in like urban places.
00:21:22
Speaker
fear and like fears of cityscapes and everybody knows what that is a dog whistle for so like oh why is this small town so idyllic compared to the big city she was before and i am sure most writers when they are writing that trope aren't intending it to be weird racially coded like they just want to do like this trope that is fun that isn't a lot of romance and But the trope that is fun that is in a lot of romance has weird undertones if they aren't handled well.
Tropes, Audiences, and Diverse Perspectives
00:21:56
Speaker
Yeah. And I think there's something to be said about recognizing that these tropes have these origins. Like you were saying, like small town. um I'm someone who grew up and medium towns and then moved to New York City. So I'm like, I love a big city story setting, etc. Like I love...
00:22:14
Speaker
I don't understand. ah Well, like I understand why people... Never mind. I under so i can grasp the concept of small town romance being that way because people, specifically white people in small towns and suburbs, were afraid of the diversity of the big cities and urban spaces. But I can't like...
00:22:35
Speaker
It doesn't, like, make sense to me. so I'm like, i don't get it, but I do get it. But um there's just a lot to be said about, like, being being aware that this is sort of the origin of the trope and that, like...
00:22:48
Speaker
And like you said earlier, you said intentionality. And that's something that I think is so important in all storytelling um is just being intentional with like, OK, so you are going to have a small town. Like, how can you make sure that it doesn't inadvertently or not feed into this idea of like small town is like idyllic, like white paradise kind of thing, which honestly sounds like hell, but whatever. Yeah.
00:23:10
Speaker
Oh yeah, I come from a majority white small town as well. So, yeah, definitely not the idyllic setting that lots of Hallmark movies make it out to be. i will tell you that.
00:23:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's... Yeah, general points. I'm trying to remember the more specific ones. I talk about small towns. I talk about, like, racially ambiguous love interest.
00:23:36
Speaker
Where they are... not white but also you can't really tell what they are and we're never going to acknowledge it which plays into a bunch of like criticization tropes that were very very popular like in the 70s and 80s and just once again became a genre convention Yeah, the love of tan skin.
00:23:58
Speaker
Fantasy authors love tan skin. skin. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I think of that too. And um in terms of like people, they'll they'll do the like racially ambiguous love interest or something to be like, oh, if you think like it's kind of giving.
00:24:17
Speaker
um oh what's the word? retconning like oh yeah sure I wrote him like he's white but like if you want to think of him as a man of color like you can and then I get like diversity points the author um so I think of that in those terms as well and I um again it goes back to and intentionality and like Knowing that the words that you're putting on the page and the the tropes that you're using to craft this story, like, that they come from a place of of thought, you know, not just, like, instinct or or whatever. Because a lot of... Especially...
00:24:54
Speaker
I mean, as anyone raised in a white supremacist society like the U.S., like it's it's the a lot of times our first instinct is very like um it can be white supremacist, like whether you intended to or not. It can just be like, I don't know.
00:25:13
Speaker
A lot of it is just like who is considered the default and like whose perspective you're trying to appeal to as a writer. so like no like black person or Latin person or Asian person is like chomping at the bit to be described ambiguously.
00:25:34
Speaker
so like nobody wants to be like presented that way from their own perspective it's really only if you're writing for a white audience that describing someone in this ambiguous way is considered appealing so like what audience are you doing this for because like the black people don't want you to describe like a character who is black in your head but not on the page and Like no one wants this except for white people who would be more comfortable with it being more up in the air.
00:26:12
Speaker
so just who are you trying to appeal to with these certain tropes? And like how are you like operating under that appeal is something I try to discuss a lot more.
00:26:25
Speaker
It's just like, who is this for? Who are you trying to make feel in what way? And if you ever find yourself incorporating any kind of marginalized people and like the people you're doing it for is not that group, you're probably going to run into some problems. Yeah.
00:26:47
Speaker
Fair enough. Yeah. ah Yeah. I think of that a lot. Um, when I think of like how we write stories and it seems counterintuitive to think of like, you have to have an audience in mind and it has to be specific, but you're right. Because if you aren't thinking specifically like, okay, so I'm writing.
00:27:05
Speaker
So me personally, I am white. And so my point of view characters are always white. I don't write from the point of view of characters of color because, um It's a personal decision that I made like years ago to not do that. And um just because the overwhelming like voice, what I was hearing was that I'm not going to like an understanding was that I'm not going to be able to do it as authentically and well as actual people of color. And so I try to like uplift works by BIPOC authors.
00:27:38
Speaker
And then I have my books with my POV characters are white. And then I often have like love interests or side characters or like best friends or just important other characters who reflect the diversity of the world that I live in. So they come from various different racial and ethnic backgrounds. And it's really important, like you were saying, to think about like, if I'm writing this, if I'm writing this book and my love interest is like an Indian American woman, like, am I doing that Because, like, am I thinking to myself, like, okay, this is going to be great for the white people who read this and see this, or is it going to be, like, I want to do well and do right by my Indian American, like, women who are reading this or who might read this? Like, I want to...
00:28:19
Speaker
um It's it like, i yeah. So I think that's just an important um consideration to keep in mind, I guess. is but Yeah. um Yeah. i Yeah. Sorry. I'm having like 12 thoughts and I can't pin any single one of them into my mouth. and It is a lot. But yeah, that question of like, what audience are you putting this out to? I think is not very...
00:28:50
Speaker
like intuitive for most artists really. I would also just prefer to write something for an audience of one who is me and just not care. But like I'm not doing that. I'm not writing fan fiction in like a college like ruled spiral notebook they know that we're going to see. I'm putting it out into the world.
00:29:11
Speaker
And when you put something out into the world, you do have certain responsibilities to like make sure that the audience you're cultivating is the audience you want first of all and is also an audience that is reflective of the values you have so you see lots of people now coming out and making it very clear That they like do not want to appeal to certain people with their works. So it's like, if you are transphobic, this book is not for you. who
00:29:49
Speaker
Like, if you have a problem with racialized characters, this book is not for you. And I feel like that is a relatively new way of looking at commercialized art.
00:29:59
Speaker
Where, like, for the longest time, it was about getting the largest audience possible. And now, especially like post-internets, post-forums, post like niche-down fandoms, it's a lot more into specificity and a lot more into acknowledging that something is just not for certain people, and that is fine.
00:30:20
Speaker
Certain people, maybe certain demographics have been catered to historically for a long time, and maybe we can stop catering to them. Yeah.
00:30:34
Speaker
Like, if people are transphobic, yeah, like, I don't want them to have good stuff. yeah I like plenty of stuff that was not made for me or with me in mind. Like, marginalized people have had to like and emphasize with media that doesn't really reflect them and their experiences at all for decades and decades. So it's a thing you can do.
00:30:58
Speaker
Yeah, it is possible. it's shocking to some, but it is possible. Um... So when we're talking about these tropes and just like the intentionality behind them and making sure that, well, first of all, are there any other, i guess, sort of like big tropes that come to mind where you're like, this is one that you actually like want people to be aware of as having like an origin to be knowledgeable about at best? Yeah.
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, there's a few that I usually kind of like put a little red flag next to if I see it in the description. or oh this one. I might need to look at someone else's recommendations first.
00:31:40
Speaker
So like small town romance is one Just because there's so much white flight coding those. Dark academia is another one.
00:31:54
Speaker
Because so much of dark academia is like loving the aesthetics of British colonialism and never interrogating it. I do love dark academia aesthetics. But also like Oxford sucks and We should stop, like, fantasizing about how cool and fancy Oxford is.
00:32:19
Speaker
So yeah, that one. no The racially ambiguous love interest is another one just because it appeals to, like, white women who want the danger of, like, a man of color but don't want to be too specific about it.
00:32:36
Speaker
a um What is another one? um One that's not necessarily a trope, but that is coming up more and more for me is things that claim to be anti-authoritarian, but just thematically
Engaging Anti-Authoritarian Themes
00:32:50
Speaker
aren't.
00:32:51
Speaker
for a long time they make that claim because they have tropes that we essentially associate with the hunger games at this point he's like oh there's a female main character and she shoots arrows and she has a braid and there is an evil man in charge anti-authoritarian And that is not the case for like 90% of these properties that don't actually have anti-authoritarian themes, but they have the aesthetic because they have the tropes.
00:33:27
Speaker
So that's a big one that has been popping up more and more ever since the like YA dystopia boom. Like Mm-hmm.
00:33:36
Speaker
okay So those are most of the big ones that I try to keep an eye out for. who Like most tropes are like a little bit iffy in their like origin just because for the longest time marginalized people were literally not allowed to write books. So like all tropes were created by people who were a little bit problematic.
00:34:05
Speaker
And just continue to be problematic until like women and people of color and queer people and all these other people could start taking the tropes and doing the things with them.
00:34:16
Speaker
So most tropes, I would argue, you should probably be mindful of just because there's probably something weird with it at some point in its history. but yeah, those are the big ones.
00:34:29
Speaker
I think something that I guess I... gay like and thinking of in... As you were speaking, was you... a lot of it is like... um it can be very like the aesthetic of something, right? Like I want my book to look like it's you interrogating academia or like British colonialism. And so I use these aesthetics. And so I guess what I'm hearing is like the, the sort of need to go beyond the surface of the aesthetics of like, oh, it's, you know, girl with braid who shoots arrows at man and be like, but what am I actually saying with this story? Like what,
00:35:09
Speaker
What is the actual message that I'm conveying through this like piece of of media?
00:35:17
Speaker
and just like I feel like intentionality and mindfulness are just going to be the two words thats a bunch because like those are really what it boils down to in the end of the day, because like I love aesthetics. I love stuff that looks cool.
00:35:34
Speaker
Like, I am in my 30s and I watch Super Sentai because I like fighty, kicky shows sit that are about nothing. Like, I don't mind, like, popcorn media.
00:35:45
Speaker
But there is, like I said, again, like, a certain responsibility. Especially if you are using tropes that are associated with commentary. But you're not providing any...
00:35:58
Speaker
Because like being like anti-authoritarian or like pro-revolutionary or whatever like is a philosophy. and if you're just going to be like, yay, I love the aesthetic of someone with their fists in the air, but you're not going to actually talk about the philosophy. You're not doing the thing.
00:36:18
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of it is, i think, attributed to just like an overall trend in literature where like we're trying to find a middle ground between y a and adult literature where like it's easier for a larger like number of people to understand.
00:36:42
Speaker
So we're doing a lot of like simpler commentary that can just be boiled down to like it's a trope. na it I'm not a fan of that, but, you know, there's always going to be books that subvert that as well.
00:36:59
Speaker
Yeah. Do you have any, i guess, examples of books that are doing the good, like deep work of subverting aesthetics of tropes? A book that I really, really often bring up in these like tropes are not themes conversations is the book Chang Dang All Stars.
00:37:22
Speaker
I'm not sure if either of you had read that one. Haven't read it, but I want to. I just haven't purchased my copy yet. o It is an excellent, excellent book. And it is pretty much my go-to for like people who are like, I want something like The Hunger Games. But like this one is like adult dystopian and it actually gets into those like surface level talks that The Hunger Games gets into.
00:37:52
Speaker
In a much more like accessible to younger people way. in here Chang Gang All-Stars is not accessible to younger people. It's a very adult book. With very adult themes.
00:38:04
Speaker
And the Hunger Games. like The like prequels that came out after the original trilogy. I think are getting much more into more in-depth commentary. But the original trilogy that most people are like thinking of was very like surface level. Did you know authoritarianism in its most extreme state is bad? But yes, I do realize that authoritarianism in its most extreme state is bad.
00:38:34
Speaker
So like Chain Gang All-Stars gets much more into, all right, what are like the precursors of the most extreme state of this thing? What are like the ideologies and the values that underlie why people think this is okay? What are like the values that perpetuate this even after it gets bad and people can't deny that in that anymore?
00:38:57
Speaker
So what about an authoritarian government that is doing stuff to people who quote unquote deserve it? What are our values with that? Do we still think it's bad or do we think it's okay suddenly?
00:39:10
Speaker
So it's a much more like complex read that actually does philosophically grapple with the aesthetics of anti-authoritarianism tropes.
00:39:22
Speaker
yeah Because it is incredibly, incredibly trope-y by design. But it uses those tropes to like launch a conversation where lots of things, I think, just have the tropes.
00:39:37
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah. um I'm thinking, i mean, as you were describing it, I can't help but make parallels to like our current government and the things it does and the way that like we specifically in terms of like um the prison industrial complex, et cetera, like, which I think is ties into chain gang all-stars if I under remember the premise correctly, but um just how like it's so normalized in so many parts of our country or the U.S. right now to be like, it's fine if we like mistreat prisoners because,
00:40:20
Speaker
whatever, they're prisoners. And it's like, well, first of all, no. Like, they're people first. And also, many of them are and a innocent or not tried or whatever. But even the ones who are, like, the guiltiest prisoner does not deserve to be treated the way we treat them. And I think a but in a lot of ways, um we get to where we are today with things like ICE rounding up people and putting them in detention camps because we're so accustomed to just saying, like, it's okay if you mistreat these people because there's a reason for it. They're...
00:40:50
Speaker
quote-unquote criminals so it's fine yeah yeah and it's yeah that is yeah why i really enjoy that book because like i'm not like shit talking the hunger games i love the hunger games i like secret columns but her books were like what if the government was killing cute white children or cute racially ambiguous children like oh no Like, everybody's going to know that's bad. it's But, like, Chang'e All-Stars, like, takes that idea of, like, what if the government was, like, intentionally death-gaming someone? Yeah.
00:41:26
Speaker
Like, said, like, huh, what if it is the people who we have, like, decided societally are, like, cool to treat this way? Are you still going to say this is authoritarian? Like, what are your, like, underlying values here? Again, where it's much more of a values discussion and not more of like, this obviously bad thing is obviously bad.
00:41:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's like question of restorative versus punitive justice. Like, what is your framework? Yeah. Yeah, and really, i think those, like, values discussion are where, like, I call it the tropification of media where, like, yeah if it does have a values-based discussion, I don't think it's just tropes. But if it is just tropes, I think it is, like, tropified, essentially.
Philosophical Themes in YA and Adult Books
00:42:16
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm trying to think of another like good example. i think a lot of Sarah J. Mass's books are good examples of aesthetic tropes that don't have a values discussion.
00:42:32
Speaker
Where he like oh, they're anti-authoritarian because they're going to war. But then when you actually look at what the narrative is talking about and what the narrative is owning it has like a bunch of weird colonial overtones and a bunch of i'm not anti-authoritarian i'm just against this one guy who is in power right now but if it was someone who i like i'd be cool with them doing it so it's a lot of very kind of more juveled juvenile and more like YA levels of like interrogating the theme the yeah I I haven't read deep enough into any of her series um but I totally I see that in the way it's talked about even and the way of like it is
00:43:27
Speaker
I think, well, this is a thought more about the Hunger Games, which is I think it's it's totally valid to say, like, the Hunger Games does something. But the problem is, like, you can't just stop at what you learned from the Hunger Games. You have to keep going, right? Like, you have to keep interrogating. Like, okay, yes, we know it's bad to make children kill each other.
00:43:47
Speaker
Do we know that it's bad to make adults do it? Do we know that it's bad to make like, you know, like you have to keep going and keep asking those questions. And I think a lot of um I just I think many people stopped at the Hunger Games and were like, sweet, I learned something and I'm good to go. And it's like, well, you you could have kept learning.
00:44:05
Speaker
And so, yeah. Yeah. I think of that in terms of the like, like there's a place for introductory. sort of very basic understandings, but also you need to make room and the publishing industry needs to publish um more of these like complex, like philosophical, like deep questioning stories.
00:44:28
Speaker
stories yeah And that's like literally what the entire like YA category and arguably the new adult category that may may not exist is like for is to be more accessible to people who are being introduced to certain concepts or certain like themes. Yeah.
00:44:47
Speaker
So like there is a place in time for those, but also I'm seeing more and more examples of like books that are not in either of those categories that are kind of dropping the ball on this intentionality aspect because they're still kind of stuck, I think, in that very like surface level, like aestheticism.
00:45:12
Speaker
Yeah, I really try to like encourage people to move beyond that, especially as they like get older and especially as they say things like, oh, all books are the same now. Like oh all these these are like the same 12 books. It's like, oh, you should probably read more books written by more people.
00:45:34
Speaker
And there's a something to be said, I think. I'm thinking of this coming from, like, write genre romance novels, like, pretty exclusively. Mostly because right now, like, my my brain is so sad that it just needs to know that there's an HEA. Like, I can't handle anything else. um And so, but for me, and I think what i'm what I'm coming away with in terms of, like, how do I write romance?
00:45:58
Speaker
a contemporary, like, happy, like, H.E.A. romance, but also interrogate these things deeply, is, like, maybe... Maybe there's' an there is an issue with like 12 tropes per book because you can't really interrogate them all that deeply in like a 300 page book if you've got every single trope under the sun, right? So it's kind of thinking of like, okay, maybe instead of doing, okay, so we're going to have only one bat and knife to throw and wound tending and also enemies to lovers and they're going to fight, author like you know, like instead of just doing that laundry list of like all these
00:46:31
Speaker
touch points or whatever kind of picking the ones that I'm like okay this this book is gonna have like this trope and I'm actually going to like explore it deeply and like explore the issues around it and sort of find the ripples right where like every craft decision you make in a book has ripples and just like follow them um Which is really just me like processing aloud what I'm gleaning from this conversation and trying to like put it in words. um you know Yeah. Romance specifically, like it's kind of getting like a bad rep in this like trope conversation just because it has...
00:47:10
Speaker
Such like a solid repertoire of like genre conventions and expected tropes. Like it is very, very specific in a way that something like science fiction isn't. Like it's much more niched down, i think. Mm-hmm.
00:47:30
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And there is like something to be said for niching down and like knowing who your audience is. But also a lot of that niching down for romance was done by the daughters of the Confederacy in like the 70s and 80s. So we want to make sure that like we're taking that into account when we're writing romance for obvious reasons.
00:47:55
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah, there's... Sure. Specifically with the, like, HEA requirement with the Happily Ever After, something I have noticed as someone who, like, doesn't like main romance, is like my main genre, is that you can tell if something has more conservative leanings if the Happily Ever After...
00:48:19
Speaker
is just for certain people but that's not acknowledged it's like oh it's happily ever after for like craig and sarah everyone else is still in a bad place like everyone else is dealing with horrific problems but craig and sarah cool so it's happy now my go-to for that one is unironically the harry potter series where it's like no you should tell that was iffy even before all of that other stuff because it is 100% an ending where like harry has a good ending and no one else does but it's still painted as like it's perfectly happy and great he said don't they still have like slavery and like a caste system
00:49:07
Speaker
and like no questions it's like yeah look cool that's actually what i was thinking of earlier when i said like retconning like racially ambiguous characters but i i was like i don't know if i should bring it up but i was thinking of specifically the like well hermione is black because i never said she wasn't um and it's like you imagine hermione being black in the entire plot where she's trying to free slaves and people are making fun of her but Like, no. It changes the context in such even worse than it already is ways. It's like, okay, maybe you should have thought that one through a little more. But we know she doesn't think many things through unless it's hate. So um so a lot of stuff, once again, not very intentionally thought out on that end. And one thing I think... um
00:49:59
Speaker
that I think about a lot in terms of intentionality and and the part of the reason why I so wanted to like have this conversation and really appreciated your thread is because I come, I'm not, I come from a very specific context that was, i was an evangelical missionary kid who was raised in like a very, very conservative, like specific strain of evangelicalism that was very like,
00:50:26
Speaker
Punitive and rigid and you... Anyway, it messed me up in a lot of ways. We don't need to get into all of them. But the the thing is that has... that Because I come from that context, I feel like I choose to and and sometimes have to be like extra conscious of what I am putting in my stories. Because sometimes I'll put something in and be like, this is perfect. And then I'm like, no way, that's just... That's like it leftovers from your evangelical indoctrination. And I was recently reading a book called Wild Faith by journalist Talia Laven. And it's about pretty much how um in the 70s, basically, they were like, we're going to take over America and
00:51:08
Speaker
here we are um and it yeah and it just kind of i made the connection between that book and this conversation um in the sense of like so much of the things we take for granted are actually very intentionally planted and come from a very intentional worldview and point of view and i listen I'm sure there are good evangelicals. i'm at Listen, if you're evangelical and you're listening to this and you know me from my childhood, I love you still. But, like, there's a lot of problems.
00:51:45
Speaker
And i I'm not saying that, like, everyone who has a belief system is wrong. Like, i don't I don't want anyone to think that's what I'm saying. But a lot of our points of view and our worldviews are colored by a very sort of, like, cynical desire for power that emerged from
00:52:05
Speaker
50 60 years ago and I mean was around forever but and so it just reminds me like because of my background and knowing that I have this context that still colors so much of my life like I need to be very careful when something like does make me happier like lights up the pleasure centers of my brain I'm like okay but is this still like is this just because it's nostalgic but I need to recognize that my nostalgia is not great you know i have two points i'm saying that because i want to remember to get to both later that is an excellent segue with like we're like discussing these underlying values and i think what you brought up with evangelical christianity is actually a very good one that i'm seeing pretty often in like especially dark romance spaces because
00:52:57
Speaker
Where it's like the touch her and die trope.
Problematic Tropes and Critical Engagement
00:53:01
Speaker
Where, yeah, that is a trope. People love it. And I made my account explode one day by pointing out that this has a weird white supremacist undertone.
00:53:11
Speaker
Because it's very rooted in this idea that, like, men show affection by physically punishing people who are deemed deserving of punishment.
00:53:23
Speaker
Where, like, it's very... And it's very disproportionate. Where like, oh, your value as a man is determined by how disproportionately you can overpower someone else.
00:53:39
Speaker
Which is a very, like, white evangelical Christian, we have a hierarchy of power. And the people ought to do whatever they want type undertone.
00:53:50
Speaker
And I brought that up not to be like, oh, this trope is inherently bad and you should never use it. and speak more on the fact that like this is what i mean when i'm talking about like what is the value underlying a trope because with the toucher and die trope the value is like power and like might makes right and oh if someone is powerful enough to treat people this way then it's fine And if that's the underlying idea that a trope has carried in it and like packed into it, it's gonna have weird under and overtones if it goes like unacknowledged.
00:54:32
Speaker
And that's not to say that like it's not cool and fun if it's like actually acknowledged as like a flaw. But lots of people are writing it now as a cool, fun, like sexy thing. And I like tell people, like you need to interrogate why you think this is like hot.
00:54:51
Speaker
Because that kind of tells me that you think abuse of power is hot. And that is something to unpack. e Real.
00:55:02
Speaker
It was a lot of stuff like that where like it is not inherently bad but it's tied to like especially in America a bunch of weird hierarchical power structure things.
00:55:17
Speaker
Yeah. So that was my first point and my second point was like going into like just being aware of kind of like where these things come from in a broader sense where like you are allowed to like whatever it is you like like that is fine but there are some situations where it actually does behoove you to interrogate why you like something and kind of unpack that a little bit more mm-hmm
00:55:53
Speaker
And, like, you will almost definitely come out as a better, like, more critical thinker for it in the end of the day. Mm-hmm. And I try to encourage people when they're looking at these tropes because I'm always, like, a big proponent of, like, depiction does not mean you're, like, encouraging it. Mm-hmm. So, like, helping people figure out, like, just through like the writing style and the narrative cues like does the author or the writer think this is a neutral thing or do they think it is positive or do they think it is negative because like how the author views these things is kind of by default going to be how you view it as the reader because you're reading their perspective and
00:56:42
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah, like, there's plenty of books, like with, like, Dark Academia, which I touched on, where the author is very clearly aware of the issues and very clearly knows what is up.
00:56:59
Speaker
So, like, The Secret History by Donna Tartts is very kind of controversial, but I personally love that book because Donna... very very clearly realizes that like academic elitism and like classicism specifically is white supremacist and classist and sexist and bad and you can tell because she's narratively depicting these things as like deleterious even if none of the characters are calling it out mm-hmm So just being able to tell, like, oh, is this author putting this weird questionable thing in here for the intention of it being weird and questionable?
00:57:40
Speaker
Or did they just not notice? I feel like so much drama like... book threads and book talk and booktube and all of that is authors putting in something questionable that they thought was neutral and then readers coming to it and being like how did you not notice this was weird yeah I have like a personal story about that, which Addy actually is, would, should be aware of this because it's about you. But I, um well, it's not about you. You were just involved in it. um My, i have, I'm indie publishing a YA next June. And when I wrote the first draft of it, there was a storyline where I was like, My main character is a lesbian and she's talking to her love interest about her best friend who's like in the closet. And she just like says, oh, yeah, because Jennifer's or like so-and-so's in the closet. And I was like, yep, whatever. That's fine. Because we know that the love interest is not going to like do anything bad with the information. And like and then Addie pointed out like, hey, this is like you shouldn't out people. And I was like, I knew that.
00:58:48
Speaker
And. I just... I overlooked it or whatever and put it in and But because I had someone point out, like, the the negative part of like why my character doing that, I was able to turn it into a storyline where my character has to kind of like deal with her weird thoughts about like being out versus being in the closet versus like public versus private. Like what is, and that there is no better way to be a queer person. And so I just think of like, one of the reasons like revision matters so much is not just cause you get to make your story and your words better, but because
00:59:26
Speaker
I didn't realize when I was first drafting it what I was saying in that with that storyline. Right. And so it took someone else's eyes to be like, hey, this is not good. And then I could take my character. And i I think like hopefully I did it well enough that people will be able to see that even though my main character is like, oh, no, it's totally fine that I think people in the closet should come out like that. That's actually not the message. Right. Like that she's wrong. um So, yeah, that's what I thought.
00:59:53
Speaker
And that is why beta readers and sensitivity readers are so so important. i think Yeah, for real. For real. If you're going through self-pub or indie pub channels where there's generally less eyes on it at every stage, like you want to make sure that like the people who yeah are seeing it are helping the developer. Yeah. 100%.
01:00:20
Speaker
a hundred percent Yeah. Yeah, I am trying to think of a very good example of the like, oh, is the author presenting this positively, negatively, or neutrally?
01:00:32
Speaker
it's just like an example because I realize that's kind of like an abstract concept. But... Oh yeah, here's my go-to example. Twilight. Early 2000s, Twilight.
01:00:45
Speaker
So there is a scene in Twilight's Eclipse where we figure out that one of the characters fought for the Confederacy.
01:00:57
Speaker
and like it's like first person point of view with like Bella Swan as the main character. She hears this news that one of these characters fought for the Confederacy The person says it.
01:01:12
Speaker
She's like, huh, that's interesting. She has her brown indigenous friend like in the room with her. She does not think about him. She does not consider if he's a little bit uncomfortable. how She doesn't ever say like...
01:01:27
Speaker
huh maybe i need to ask more about the like are you still a racist thing later if she just kind of takes that information just like completely neutrally like this is a thing i learned about jasper the vampire today and it's never acknowledged ever again And that is like how like my go to for like this is an author who thought this was a neutral piece of information, but who did not interrogate like why that should probably be thought about more by like our first person perspective main character.
01:02:06
Speaker
Because I can tell you if I heard that someone who I knew fought for a white supremacist institution, I would be having thinks in my head about it.
01:02:17
Speaker
And I would have like worries and concerns. And I would like turn to my other brown friend and be like, oh, did you did you hear that one of our people who we're hanging out with now apparently is a white supremacist? And that's that's fine.
01:02:31
Speaker
So Bella never thinks about it again. and Which is a pretty good indication that like the writer of that scene thought it was just a neutral piece of information. Like, oh, like Edward is 117 whatever. Bella has brown eyes. The wolves are big. Jasper was in the Confederacy. Their house is nice.
01:02:55
Speaker
And it's just presented like...
01:02:59
Speaker
Just another piece of set dressing when it really should be talked about more. So that is like a very good example, I think, of a very blatant version of this author took a questionable thing, didn't realize it was questionable and put it in the book anyway.
01:03:18
Speaker
Because if she did realize it was questionable, the two options would be Bella doesn't think too much about it and we're supposed to think she's a bad person because she doesn't.
01:03:30
Speaker
Or Bella does think about it and like we have that conversation. But like neither of those happened. So you know we're supposed to like Bella. So you can probably guess that it was just in there because no one's sensitivity read eclipse back in like 2011 or whatever yeah there's and there's so much yeah god i feel like twilight is a rich text for things that are just stated as neutral and then you think about it and you're like that's actually kind of awful um but clearly the narrative didn't think it was awful
01:04:06
Speaker
um yeah it's it's a really is a perfect example of all of that like the evangelism and the white supremacy and the patriarchal stuff just be in it without question and like oh it's April because i love Twilight I'm just gonna say that right now like I read it in middle school it's nostalgic I could never in like good faith say like, I hate Twilight. It's awful.
01:04:38
Speaker
But it is so, so not good and so harmful. The second you start thinking about how it handles all of this information. Like I'm never giving it my money every game.
01:04:52
Speaker
but I'm never going to tell people to read it. I just like like it personally because I read it when I was 12 and I can't make myself not liking it But I can acknowledge that it has these flaws.
01:05:06
Speaker
And like I think that's a road bump lots of people hit where they're just like, oh, but I like this thing, though. it's like you're allowed to like have feelings about it. But like having your personal feelings about it doesn't mean you ignore whatever flaws it has, especially if those flaws are egregious and harming another group of people.
01:05:31
Speaker
There's much to be said for being able to hold two truths at once.
Mindful Media Consumption
01:05:36
Speaker
One being I like this and the other being this is harmful and recognize that like they can coexist.
01:05:43
Speaker
um Which I think a lot of people struggle. I mean, a lot of people, I struggle to hold two truths at once. like But it's it's a problem in literature discourse, I think, when when um when there's not room for that nuance or that dialectic. Yeah.
01:06:01
Speaker
Yeah, and it was, like, I think literally the first thing I said, like, these are just, like, this is how stories came into being. no like, there are plenty of, like, stories, especially coming out, like, and within the 21st century that interrogate these things.
01:06:20
Speaker
well You're going hard pressed to like never run into something with problematic elements, like especially if you're looking at something older.
01:06:31
Speaker
And like that is fine and it's cool and like they exist in the context they exist in. And you should support people who are doing more with it now, even if you like what you like.
01:06:46
Speaker
Speaking of supporting people, i would love to know how our listeners can find and support you in your work. right, so you can find me on social media. It's at Pedro Paro 2.
01:07:03
Speaker
I talk about writing craft and I give many, many book recommendations from like marginalized authors. So if you're looking for those books that I just said exist that interrogate these things more and are much better and less problematic, I recommend lots of those.
01:07:22
Speaker
um You can also find me just at my author website. It's briannaincoxwriter.com. where I have like information about my book coming out in March. And I also help with developmental editing and sensitivity reading services as well.
01:07:37
Speaker
So anyone is interested in those, I provide those services. Wonderful. um Is there anything else before we wrap up that you would like to like, that's on your mind that you think would be get to share?
01:07:55
Speaker
am I think we touched on most things. I feel like a good place to end would just be to really emphasize that this is not like a moral argument.
01:08:11
Speaker
like I'm not saying you are a bad person if you didn't catch this. yeah You are a bad person if you continue have positive feelings about a book you read in 2008 that is a little bit problematic now.
01:08:29
Speaker
So I feel like lots of people get stuck on this idea of like, oh, I couldn't do this thing that's questionable or I can't like something that's questionable because I can't be a bad person because being a bad person is bad.
01:08:43
Speaker
one wants to be a bad person. So I just want to really hammer home the fact that this is not about you being a bad person. It's about just being more generally mindful of like how you're moving in the world and who you're supporting with your time and your money and your energy.
01:09:03
Speaker
So yeah, you are not a bad person for not knowing things, but you're kind of a bad person if you are told things and you ignore them anyway. So just keep that in mind.