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Episode 59 - The ADHD Brain: Friend AND Foe
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What do you think of when you hear ADHD ? Do you think you might have it or know someone who does? We all took a an ADHD screener test before this show and announce the scores live on air! Regardless of the answer, the learnings from this episode on the BRAIN APPLY TO ALL OF US, whether you're neurotypical or neurodivergent. Join us for an amazing episode into brain structure and function as it relates to art/craft, guided by our resident Ph.D. psychologist, Sherry Pagoto.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
Take the ADHD Screener:
The test PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HWEHVtWa0ud4k9ak5JuAPd4rNQ9n1XeY/view?usp=drive_link
The scoring notes: https://novopsych.com/assessments/diagnosis/adult-adhd-self-report-scale-asrs/
(READ the tab ASRS Scoring & Interpretation - There are separate scores for sections A, B and then TOTAL)
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Transcript
00:00:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
When I say ADHD, does it resonate with you? What comes to mind? Is it something that that you identify with? Have you ever thought to yourself, maybe I have ADHD, or maybe you have a family member or a loved one who has ADHD?
00:00:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sometimes it seems like ADHD can be almost like a superpower. Like you have this unbelievable ability to focus.
00:00:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And other times it seems like a big distraction and it is very difficult to live with in today's society.
00:00:34
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
00:00:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So today on this episode of Woodworking is Bullshit, we're gonna get into the ADH brain and how it relates to creativity and art.
00:01:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, we are back again, your favorite band of misfits. This is Woodworking is Bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig Woodworking, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I'm here with a whole host of our favorite characters. In the chair next to me is Sherry Pagato, PhD, clinical psychologist and professor at UConn.
00:01:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That is me.
00:01:30
EDHD
wo wo
00:01:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you. Across from me is everyone's favorite voice, Jack Thomas, learning designer, learning designer, art professor, homesteader, and the sexiest voice in New England.
00:01:39
Jack Thomas
Hey guys.
00:01:47
EDHD
Goddamn right.
00:01:48
Jack Thomas
Great intro, thanks Paul.
00:01:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And of course, you know who, my boy, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator.
00:01:58
EDHD
¿Dónde está el baño, mi amigo?
00:02:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, guys. So... We're taking on, well, I'm very, very excited about this episode. We've done a ton of work up front, thinking about it, talking about it, ah researching it. Of course, Sherry is absolutely did the lion's share of the research for this episode. It's about ADHD and the creative brain.
00:02:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We started realizing that there are ah some of us who relate to having ADHD and How does it interact with our creative brain? Is it an asset?
00:02:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Does it hold us back? Does it distract us? What is the relationship between ADHD and the creative brain? So ah before we start, let's just define define Mary.
00:02:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Where's Mary?
00:02:55
Jack Thomas
Mary.
00:02:55
EDHD
You son of a bitch.
00:02:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right? Let's define in in relatable terms what is ADHD. Okay. okay so ADHD stands for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
00:03:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so it is actually a neurodevelopmental disorder that is usually first noticed in childhood, but it goes throughout adulthood. And it is characterized by pervasive deficits in attention, hyperactivity, and impulsivity.
00:03:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There are three types in attentive type. hyperactive type or the combo for those lucky few you win the prize. Um, the inattentive and hyperactive type. okay So generally, um that's what characterizes the disorder. It's a disorder when it Disrupts functioning in more than one area of your life. And when I say area of your life, I mean your relationships, your school or work or your self-concept.
00:03:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So when those things are starting to create issues, so the symptoms related to it creating issues and in your areas of your life. That's when it would be good to get a diagnosis, look into treatment and that sort of thing, cause obviously you don't want this type of symptoms to be interfering with your ability to be successful in those areas. Okay. So that's generally,
00:04:19
EDHD
Can I ask ah what may be an ignorant question?
00:04:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. yeah
00:04:22
EDHD
When I was a boy, um i like we can get into this later on, but folks suggested that I was ADD. And i don't is there a differentiation between those two? Or is ADD just like, that's what we called it in the 90s, and now it's ADHD because it covers more topics?
00:04:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Exactly. So it used to be referred to as ADD, um but now it's generally referred to as ADHD, I think, because what now we have like a better understanding of the full breadth of it and spectrum of it.
00:04:43
EDHD
Hmm.
00:04:53
EDHD
Gotcha.
00:04:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I like the word spectrum. We typically only use spectrum for some reason when we talk about autism, but most disorders like this are on a spectrum where some people might be a very sort of light version, whereas as other people, it can be very crippling, very crippling.
00:05:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, ah you know, you meet one person with ADHD, you've met one person with ADHD, basically, because there could be any sort of constellation of severity and symptoms and, you know, mixing and mixing matching of different symptoms.
00:05:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, so the thing, the reason why we put things in buckets in psychology is that because we do you need to like have a criteria to diagnose and treat and you know that to be paid for by insurance and like insurance codes.
00:05:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But everything is dimensional or on spectrum. Right, john that's true. It's important to know. yeah So you might feel like, oh, I have like flavors of that, but I don't necessarily feel the functioning deficits per se.
00:05:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so And that's very possible. You may have flavors of it, and but not be diagnosable per se. so
00:05:56
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:05:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So let's get started with Eric and Jack. Both of you have said to me on ah multiple occasions that you feel as though you have ADHD or some elements of ADHD. So I'd like each of you to say, like what was your experience growing up? why do you think you know what what What has happened in your life that is consistent with you feeling like there's some element of ADHD in your lives?
00:06:24
EDHD
Please, Jack, you go first.
00:06:25
Jack Thomas
Oh, yeah.
00:06:26
EDHD
Beauty before beast.
00:06:27
Jack Thomas
i've Oh, my God. It's so kind. So kind. um i I think I might have a ah vastly different experience than than Eric, not just because if you've met one person with ADHD, you've met one person with ADHD.
00:06:40
Jack Thomas
But also because like the female experience of ADHD is very different.
00:06:44
EDHD
Hmm.
00:06:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ah.
00:06:45
Jack Thomas
Like, like getting late diagnosed as ah a female identifying person is really, really common. um I think, you know, and and for the record, like i'm I'm also autistic. I think that kind of muddies the water a little bit, maybe because some of those symptoms kind of cancel each other out. But basically, like if you grow up with ADHD as a female identifying person, like you don't get diagnosed sometimes because you're not like bouncing off the walls in your kindergarten classroom. You're like a hyper people pleaser. You know, you're, you go out of your way to like overcompensate with focus and attention sometimes. um And so I, that's why I didn't get diagnosed until I was 30 and I'm, I'm 38 now. But for me, like the way it shows up, I actually have a beef. I have a whole ass beef with the name,
00:07:36
Jack Thomas
attention, hyperactive deficit disorder. ah it
00:07:41
EDHD
Nailed it. Got it in one.
00:07:41
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:07:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:07:43
EDHD
Hmm.
00:07:43
Jack Thomas
you You guys, you guys, look, i'm real i'm I'm kind of distracted right now.
00:07:45
EDHD
ah
00:07:47
Jack Thomas
You have to forgive me little bit, okay? But thank you, thank you.
00:07:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're with you. We're with you.
00:07:52
Jack Thomas
um um i'm I'm not with me, but I i appreciate that.
00:07:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's amazing, Jack.
00:07:56
EDHD
ah
00:07:57
Jack Thomas
Basically, i i don't even I don't even say that. I mean, case in point, i don't even like say the full name anymore because my beef with it is I don't feel like I have a deficit of attention. I feel like I have too much of it. and And I put it all in one place at one time.
00:08:12
Jack Thomas
And if you if you if you try to take me away from that, I'm going be so fucking cranky.
00:08:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Yes.
00:08:17
Jack Thomas
Like... Like, I actually do not want to be distracted. And I i think that hyper focus for me, like that hyper focus and inability to break away from what I'm doing was the first indicator to me that I might have a problem, especially because it was not always the thing I should be focusing on.
00:08:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yes
00:08:37
Jack Thomas
Like, unless I was given free range, right, to be like, focus on what you want, you know, outside of the realms of, you know, having a due date, like an external deadline for something. So that's my, that's what was the red flag for me.
00:08:49
Jack Thomas
It was like, I want to focus on this one thing. And if you try to tear me away from it, I'm going to be so pissed off at you. I don't care that I have this deadline. I have this other thing I'm working on and this is what matters to me.
00:09:00
Jack Thomas
So leave me alone. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think there are a lot of people with ADHD right now nodding their heads in resonance of that experience. And we'll talk a little bit about like the neurobiology of what's going on there. Yeah, that's really and Because you're right, there is an extraordinary capacity for hyper focus and ADHD, which I think people don't understand.
00:09:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But we'll get into that.
00:09:20
Jack Thomas
yeah
00:09:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, Jack, how did that impact your life growing up? Did it impact your relationships? Did it impact your relationship? Like the way you interacted with the world the way you act around with your parents? Did it impact jobs?
00:09:32
Jack Thomas
Yeah, I mean, i think that I was able, and and this is this is where I'm going to get myself in trouble with some of my fellow NeuroSpicy people. And for the record, some people hate it being called NeuroSpicy because they feel like it demeans the the disability aspect of it.
00:09:45
Jack Thomas
As someone who is multiply neurodivergent, the technical term, I think, ah I just prefer NeuroSpicy, right? That's that's me.
00:09:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're allowed to have your preferences.
00:09:53
Jack Thomas
Thank you. Thank you. And as we all know, I am very spicy. So, you know, so...
00:09:59
EDHD
Yeah, but that voice so smooth, though.
00:09:59
Jack Thomas
so I know. Basically what I'm saying is I do what I want. Right. Okay. So, I mean, i yes, I mean, the answer is ah is a big resounding hell yes. um But I think I was able to gamify it for myself and make it work for me so that I was like, oh, wait a second.
00:10:17
Jack Thomas
If I'm in this particular situation or environment, this sucks for me. But if I can move myself over here to this scenario, this is actually amazing. And so I became a college professor because then I could focus on exactly what I was interested in to a like mad extent and nobody...
00:10:36
Jack Thomas
you know, nobody tried to interrupt me. Contrary to you have to be hyper-focused on the thing that you are most, you know, what your special interest is, what you're most dedicated to doing.
00:10:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:10:47
Jack Thomas
um And then also you're really good in a, you're good in a fucking crisis, which as an educator, you have to be good. and People with ADHD are excellent in a crisis. And, you know, so I feel like what I can't, I can't answer an email that feels a little bit confrontational to me.
00:10:55
EDHD
Mm-hmm.
00:11:03
Jack Thomas
I will let it sit in my inbox for like seven days. Sorry if I've done that to any of you, by the way. um
00:11:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's too
00:11:09
Jack Thomas
But like if something is happening, if I look out the window and I see a bear about to attack the chicken coop, I'm Superman dog. Like, you know, but but that but that email, no man, that email, no way.
00:11:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
much
00:11:23
Jack Thomas
So that's my that's my experience with it.
00:11:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
too much
00:11:25
Jack Thomas
Email's too much. I'll take the bear. I choose the bear.
00:11:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, I choose the bear. We all do.
00:11:31
EDHD
That's the t-shirt for this episode.
00:11:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, that's that's a that's a contender for the t-shirt.
00:11:34
EDHD
Yep.
00:11:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I choose the bear.
00:11:34
EDHD
Yep.
00:11:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um but hey jack Jack, did I hear you channel a Southern draw it like a little bit in that answer?
00:11:40
EDHD
We've talked about this before.
00:11:42
Jack Thomas
Dog, you know when I start drinking. ah You know i'm a Georgia girl.
00:11:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a Southern spice, right there, Southern spice.
00:11:49
Jack Thomas
Right there.
00:11:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, Eric, what eric what what was your experience like?
00:11:57
EDHD
As a young person, um i I don't know.
00:11:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:12:00
EDHD
like it I was a terrible student. So many of these things we've talked about on the podcast before, but I'll try to keep it brief. I was a terrible student. I could never sit still.
00:12:11
EDHD
um Anything that was physically inclined in the learning process, I was apt toward in anything that required sitting at a desk and like...
00:12:15
Jack Thomas
was like, I can't do it. I was terrible. like, even it was like playing the piano,
00:12:23
EDHD
discussing, i was like, I'm out. I can't do it. Like I was just I was i was terrible in a seat. But like even if it was a simple like playing the piano, um you know, I did my piano teacher when I was a kid.
00:12:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you
00:12:36
EDHD
ah I like all kids, I would kind of refuse to practice. But when I did practice and I would get interested in a piece, I would play it over and over and over again. And my hands have the capacity to remember things faster than my brain.
00:12:51
EDHD
And so I would go to the lesson and I would play the thing and I would just be watching my hands play, you know, a five, six, seven sheet piece of music. And she would be like, i I don't know anybody else who does that. Like everybody else is like looking at the music and checking that they're in the right spot. But like, if I did that, then I would like mess myself up because I know the order of things. But it's just the movement of the thing that I could do. um And I also remember in in fifth grade, my father and I rebuilt our back deck.
00:13:23
EDHD
I may have told this story on the pod before. So forgive me if I have. No?
00:13:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm not sure I remember that.
00:13:27
EDHD
Okay.
00:13:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No.
00:13:27
EDHD
All right. So when I was in fifth grade, um We got out a week early from the other boys in in the neighborhood.
00:13:32
Jack Thomas
got out.
00:13:36
EDHD
They were all like a year or two younger than me. And in however the testing worked, I happened to have a week of summer vacation sooner than them. And in that week, my father and I rebuilt the back deck while everybody else was still sitting in testing and in school.
00:13:51
EDHD
And in that very moment, I was like, oh, this is what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. Like there was no doubt in my mind, like sitting in a classroom was prison and being able to just like, Hey, let's do math.
00:14:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:14:05
EDHD
I don't give a fuck. Let's add and subtract fractions. Let's multiply numbers because it's, it's, there's a tangible reality that we're working toward in building the thing. Um, but if you're giving me time tables, go fuck yourself.
00:14:15
EDHD
I'll fight you to the death for that. Um, So i don't know.
00:14:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Visual learner.
00:14:20
EDHD
That's largely how it manifested. When I was in seventh grade, this is something I still make fun of my mother for. When I was in seventh grade, my mother got me tested to see if I had a learning disability.
00:14:26
Jack Thomas
When seventh grade, my mother got me tested to see if I had a learning disability, and I don't know what that, what the specific disability was that they were testing for in that year, because that was just like, in 1989 or something.
00:14:30
EDHD
And I don't know what what that um what the specific disability was that they were testing for in in that year, because that would have been what? I don't know.
00:14:42
EDHD
99 or something. um And we went and we we did this test of like visual cards, so like put this in order and whatnot.
00:14:44
Jack Thomas
And we went and we did this test of like visual cards, like what they did for her and whatnot.
00:14:51
EDHD
And I remember the lady put it out in front of me.
00:14:53
Jack Thomas
and the lady put it in front of me with
00:14:54
EDHD
It was like five cards. And it was like a guy walking up to a soda machine, putting a coin couple other things, getting soda out.
00:15:01
Jack Thomas
like five guy walking to the building machine, putting coin in, couple other things, the dough out.
00:15:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:15:01
EDHD
She was like, can you put this in order? And I like, are you fucking with me right now? Like, Yeah, like I can, I can put this in order and I put it.
00:15:07
Jack Thomas
He's like, can this order? And like, fuck it.
00:15:08
EDHD
So we go through the test and I found the test results in the attic ah like a year or two ago.
00:15:10
Jack Thomas
Like, yeah, can in And like, we go through the test. And I found the test result in the attic two
00:15:13
EDHD
And it it basically said like, no, he's perfectly capable.
00:15:15
Jack Thomas
And basically said like, he's perfectly capable.
00:15:16
EDHD
he just doesn't care.
00:15:17
Jack Thomas
He just doesn't
00:15:18
EDHD
Like he doesn't want to be a student, you know?
00:15:19
Jack Thomas
he doesn't want to be.
00:15:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
See, that's the misconception.
00:15:21
EDHD
Um,
00:15:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Sherry's going to talk about that. When we get to brain chemistry, I think that's a common misconception about they don't care, but it actually relates to your brain chemistry.
00:15:33
EDHD
Well, and I think in that period of time, like there, i correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like in the 90s and early 2000s, they were like, we didn't know enough about it at that point, you know?
00:15:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:15:33
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:15:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They didn't know.
00:15:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A little, but... Yeah.
00:15:45
Jack Thomas
I also think there's like a gifted kid to ADHD burned out adult pipeline.
00:15:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. yes
00:15:50
Jack Thomas
um Like I remember as a kid, ah those like weird card tests as well. But they took a bunch of us who like made a certain score or performed a certain way on that sequential card test. And they put us all into a gifted class.
00:16:05
Jack Thomas
There were like 12 of us. And we were doing like all kinds of hands on projects that were based on like Greek mythology and like writing poetry and making collages and stuff. And I was like, oh, dog, this is where it's at.
00:16:16
Jack Thomas
You know, 100% of those people have ADHD today. Like diagnosed, like I know all of them diagnosed ADHD, red stamp, you know, we, we got it, you know?
00:16:27
EDHD
Thank
00:16:28
Jack Thomas
And so I think there is something there, right? That's like,
00:16:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:16:32
Jack Thomas
it's not that you're it's not that you're shitty at school at all. Quite the opposite, right? It's like you just have a different neurotype, like a different way that your brain thinks and you need visual things and manual things and then you're like a rock star when you get that.
00:16:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You were saying that. Yeah.
00:16:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Visual movement.
00:16:48
EDHD
Yeah, physical learning all day long.
00:16:48
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Yeah. All day.
00:16:50
EDHD
Like if you, you can tell me a thing and I will forget it immediately.
00:16:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is...
00:16:54
Jack Thomas
Oh.
00:16:55
EDHD
If if I do a thing with my hands, I will remember it for the rest of my life.
00:16:55
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:16:59
Jack Thomas
Yep. Yep.
00:17:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Y'all, this is so crazy. It's so trash. This is exactly what Sherry was telling us at dinner.
00:17:03
EDHD
Hmm.
00:17:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like we had dinner right before the episode and she's explaining they tend to be visual and instructive learners, they're not written, not told. yeah So everything you're saying is tracking with the the the expert psychologist on my right.
00:17:19
Jack Thomas
Oh God.
00:17:20
EDHD
Well, that's all right. So that's interesting to me. And we can we can dive into it Paul, I don't know what your layout for the episode is, but.
00:17:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, what's your... Well, we're going to get to that in brain chemistry, but before we get to brain chemistry, Eric, we have a little surprise, everybody. So we thought it would be fun as part of this episode.
00:17:34
Jack Thomas
oh god
00:17:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that we did this. I'm absolutely tickled.
00:17:42
Jack Thomas
oh my god
00:17:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All of us would take an ADHD screener test.
00:17:47
EDHD
Hell yeah.
00:17:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I should say that this is a validated screener for ADHD.
00:17:48
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:17:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's just a screener though. And in order to get a full diagnosis, you would need to do the full workup, which involves like lots of testing. You know, you mentioned like some tests that they give you. um And to show that there's like a long history and things like that. So you wouldn't use it to diagnose. However, the scores on it tend to be highly predictive of diagnosis. so So sometimes in the clinic, we will use it to kind of get a sense of is the diagnosis likely?
00:18:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then if so, you would refer to like a specialty ADHD clinic. to do the full workup, which can take a few hours to do that. But yeah, so what do we have here for this screener result?
00:18:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Disclaimer over, um because we have to be professional when we're talking about mental health. And and thank God we have Sherry here with us.
00:18:36
EDHD
This not medical advice, sure.
00:18:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is, that no, well, I mean, Sherry is qualified to give that advice, but like she said, she would need a full workup.
00:18:38
Jack Thomas
Right. yeah
00:18:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah This is a screener that is highly predictive though of the answer. So we thought it would be great for all of us to take it. And we did not only all of us took it. Uh, I took it. My wife took it.
00:18:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Our daughter took it. Sherry took it. ah
00:18:57
EDHD
Mmm.
00:18:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and, uh, And then Jack and Eric. And we had a few extra people from that. He's handing this thing out to neighbors. I have 10 test results.
00:19:08
EDHD
I'm, have we met Paul?
00:19:08
Jack Thomas
ah but
00:19:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right? Okay. Everyone he meets. Do the screener. but Like, what if, like the idea was like, what if someone who thinks they're ADHD comes back with a negative screener? Like, what does that mean?
00:19:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
doesn't mean they've they never had it to begin with, or does it mean they've learned coping strategies and they've evolved so that their answers now don't really represent because coping strategies or, you know, brain you know brain can change throughout your life.
00:19:33
EDHD
Interesting.
00:19:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I didn't know. What happens if you don't think you have it and you do? Like I'm looking for, like, I was so intrigued at the possibilities with this test. All right.
00:19:45
EDHD
So all the questions of a man who definitely, definitely does not have it.
00:19:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So.
00:19:49
Jack Thomas
no
00:19:49
EDHD
ah
00:19:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i
00:19:50
Jack Thomas
ah
00:19:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Shit. You just spoiled the answer.
00:19:55
Jack Thomas
I have other theories about Paul's brain.
00:19:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
all right.
00:19:56
EDHD
I didn't know, but I knew, you know? Okay.
00:19:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So ah should we go from low to high or high to low? Or should we, how should we do this? Should we go person by person or should we go by score? who yeah Who wants to know first?
00:20:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
second can
00:20:09
Jack Thomas
Let's go by score. I want to go by score.
00:20:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
okay Okay, do we start at the low score or the high score?
00:20:11
EDHD
okay
00:20:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
High meaning, yes, ADHD. Low meaning, no ADHD.
00:20:17
Jack Thomas
Let's go high score.
00:20:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Start low. who Start high hi first?
00:20:18
EDHD
hi
00:20:20
Jack Thomas
I say start high.
00:20:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, we're diving right in.
00:20:21
Jack Thomas
Please start high.
00:20:21
EDHD
Okay.
00:20:22
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:22
EDHD
Okay.
00:20:23
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:20:24
EDHD
All right.
00:20:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that's okay Oh, There's that impulsivity we love.
00:20:25
Jack Thomas
rip Rip that bandaid off. Rip that bandaid off, dog.
00:20:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let's do it.
00:20:30
Jack Thomas
God damn it, Sherry.
00:20:32
EDHD
Hyper fixation, baby.
00:20:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Coming in in first place, y'all. With a score of 53, Jack Thomas.
00:20:44
EDHD
Not surprised in any way whatsoever.
00:20:44
Jack Thomas
Oh my God. but You mean my coping mechanisms haven't been working? I used to be so much worse, you guys.
00:20:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Holy shit, Jack. fifty so well tell so yeah Tell him the ranges of what that means.
00:20:57
EDHD
Hold on, 53 out of what?
00:20:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, so 53.
00:20:59
EDHD
Yeah.
00:20:59
Jack Thomas
Yeah. what what What's the range?
00:21:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So here here's the range.
00:21:00
EDHD
Like cripplingly ADHD.
00:21:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Here's the range.
00:21:03
EDHD
no
00:21:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Here's the range. Zero to 30 is I do not have it. 30 to 40 is mild to moderate. 40 to 50 is the high zone.
00:21:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And above 50 is Jack
00:21:21
Jack Thomas
Oh my God. When I say I used to be worse, I need you to know I do mean that.
00:21:26
EDHD
ah
00:21:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. In second place.
00:21:31
EDHD
All right, this is one of two people.
00:21:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Jack had a 53. In second place is my wife, Vicky.
00:21:38
EDHD
I fucking knew it!
00:21:39
Jack Thomas
I knew it. I knew it.
00:21:39
EDHD
I knew it was gonna be Vicky! Okay.
00:21:41
Jack Thomas
Love you, Vicky.
00:21:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
With a 46. And she, yeah.
00:21:45
Jack Thomas
That far behind?
00:21:47
EDHD
Hmm.
00:21:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, I mean, she's in the in the middle of the high zone. Like she's, I mean, you just exited the high zone, Jack, but she's square in the middle of that 40 to 50 range for the 46.
00:21:52
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:21:56
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:21:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What did she tell me to tell Jack? Well, she had much admiration for you and for winning the the high score.
00:22:02
Jack Thomas
I mean, likewise, likewise, the feelings are mutual.
00:22:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She did. She said, give my warmest, finest regards to my ADHD queen, Jack.
00:22:12
Jack Thomas
Oh my God. i love Vicky.
00:22:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:22:14
Jack Thomas
Thanks Vicky.
00:22:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So second place was Vicky with a 46. Next up All right, let me wait. Hold on. Who next? don't want to fuck it up. Who's left? We have Sherry, we have Eric, and we have Ruby.
00:22:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Are we including our daughter? including our daughter. Do we need to sign in like a consent form? Yeah. She's not a minor anymore. Look, we're her parents.
00:22:33
EDHD
yeah
00:22:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We just gave consent. Oh, no, she's 18. We can't give consent for her anymore. ah I don't think she'll care, but it does feel well. All right, so we have Jack.
00:22:41
EDHD
She can be named X. Oh, yeah, fair.
00:22:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, next up.
00:22:44
Jack Thomas
No, no. Yeah, know.
00:22:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Next highest is Mr. Eric.
00:22:50
EDHD
Really?
00:22:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Third place. Third place.
00:22:52
EDHD
OK, all right.
00:22:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
With a score of 35, you are in the mild to moderate, in the middle of the mild to moderate.
00:22:58
EDHD
Interesting.
00:22:58
Jack Thomas
Okay, okay.
00:22:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sweet spot.
00:22:59
EDHD
Okay.
00:22:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so mild to moderate goes from 30 to 40, and you are at 35.
00:23:03
EDHD
Okay. So functioning.
00:23:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, we're all functioning.
00:23:06
EDHD
Okay.
00:23:06
Jack Thomas
Dog, I'm functioning.
00:23:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Even, i mean, yeah, was to say.
00:23:07
Jack Thomas
I'm functioning.
00:23:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
all functioning. Jack's functioning. Just different.
00:23:11
Jack Thomas
Mostly.
00:23:13
EDHD
ah
00:23:14
Jack Thomas
Usually.
00:23:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so so just to recap the score, Jack 53, Vicky 46, Eric 35, Sherry is next with a 30. Zero to 30.
00:23:26
Jack Thomas
okay.
00:23:27
EDHD
All right. Category twinsies.
00:23:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm straddling it.
00:23:29
Jack Thomas
Okay. Okay.
00:23:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Zero to 30 is the no or low. So she was right on the cusp, but she's still in the no category.
00:23:34
EDHD
Oh, son of a bitch. All right. Okay.
00:23:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Next was my daughter, our daughter, excuse me, Ruby, who had a 25.
00:23:41
Jack Thomas
Not surprised after meeting her.
00:23:43
EDHD
Yeah.
00:23:43
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:23:43
EDHD
Yeah.
00:23:44
Jack Thomas
No, she's got together.
00:23:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then Paul is bringing up, I got a 17.
00:23:47
EDHD
And then Paul with a three.
00:23:50
EDHD
Okay.
00:23:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it's interesting that our daughter landed right in between us.
00:23:52
Jack Thomas
God.
00:23:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Between the two us.
00:23:56
EDHD
Mmm.
00:23:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So she got like a little of each of our brains, which I think she does actually have a little bit of both of our brains.
00:24:00
Jack Thomas
Paul, I just got to say, but must be fucking nice.
00:24:01
EDHD
Interesting.
00:24:04
Jack Thomas
Must be fucking nice.
00:24:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but
00:24:05
EDHD
ah
00:24:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know dude I'm just the same asshole I've always been i don't really know but I think like you know the universe got him back by giving him a spouse who is 46 Vicky a 46 it's balancing out we gotta spread them out you know Actually, actually, up one pattern I've seen in Vicky's life is that she sort of affixes herself to someone who is kind of my type, my brain type, like the
00:24:20
Jack Thomas
It's balance. It's balance. Yeah.
00:24:35
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:24:36
EDHD
A stabilizing force.
00:24:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah a stabilizing force.
00:24:38
EDHD
Yeah.
00:24:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so before me, it was Bonnie, her best friend, Bonnie, not not lesbian. They were just like best friends, but like she, um she like attached herself to Bonnie.
00:24:44
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:24:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now I want, I want to, they weren't married is what I'm trying to say. but bonnie They were just roommates, but um they they formed such vicki's formed such a bond with Bonnie because Bonnie was her like like the...
00:24:59
EDHD
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:59
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:25:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What do you say? the You plan it, I'll do it. Yeah, Vicky's the best wing woman ever, but she wants someone who is with her like in her life who can like take the lead or help her think through things or or whatever because I think she knows her brain and she she wants that kind of like...
00:25:08
EDHD
Okay.
00:25:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know. Well, she doesn't have to go through you know the cognitive load of having to plan, which is going to be a little bit harder for her brain naturally, whereas the friend might be like, oh, I have ideas of what we're going to Let's do this.
00:25:33
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:25:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and Yeah, and here's how we do it.
00:25:37
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:25:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
in.
00:25:38
EDHD
Hmm.
00:25:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think that's part of why we work the way we do. yeah like She loves for me to take the lead on things, and that's fine by me.
00:25:41
EDHD
This.
00:25:41
Jack Thomas
yeah
00:25:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I sort of naturally gravitate towards that.
00:25:46
EDHD
I can I can identify with that 100% man, like outside of work things.
00:25:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So
00:25:50
EDHD
I'm like, i don't give a fuck what we do. Whatever you want to do is good, but you do it. I'll be there. I'll be your biggest fucking hype man.
00:25:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:56
EDHD
I'm game. Let's ride.
00:25:57
Jack Thomas
Well, and i i want I want to call out something here because like one of the ways that I personally like cultivate and harvest dopamine is actually planning. Like I love a good plan. I love to make a plan.
00:26:08
Jack Thomas
What I don't like is the execution part. Once I once i make a plan, I'll plan all day.
00:26:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:26:15
Jack Thomas
I have planned entire, ah you know, like cross-country road trips for people that I met on Instagram. I don't even know their first name. Like i
00:26:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha!
00:26:26
Jack Thomas
Because I'm using it as a mechanism to avoid doing something else that i should be doing.
00:26:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Amazing. Jack, that's another point we touched on at dinner. So we got to get to Sherry's brain chemistry piece.
00:26:36
Jack Thomas
oh yeah, yeah.
00:26:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah But I thought that test and those results, look, I suppose they largely played to what we expected, right?
00:26:44
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:26:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There were there were really no gotchas in there.
00:26:44
EDHD
Sure, yeah.
00:26:45
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:26:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I was kind of hoping for a gotcha, but we didn't. It all played out exactly as we thought. By the way, if you would like to take thiser this ah clinically validated screener, from the psychology literature and field.
00:26:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And there's a whole host of publications yeah about the validation of this as a quick screening tool to just give you an idea. I will put the link to it in the show notes because I bet there's a whole shitload of people who want to know now.
00:27:13
EDHD
as How, how, how,
00:27:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it's only 18 questions. So yeah it's actually pretty quick Very quick to fill out.
00:27:16
Jack Thomas
ah if it was If it was longer, you'd never finish it if you actually had ADHD.
00:27:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah we had They had to keep it short, so
00:27:18
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:27:21
Jack Thomas
yeah
00:27:21
EDHD
how, how did they go about like actually, uh, ranking the answers and finding out where they fall on that?
00:27:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so yeah, there's instructions.
00:27:30
EDHD
Is that information in there? Oh, okay.
00:27:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I read the instructions very carefully.
00:27:33
EDHD
Okay.
00:27:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's 18 questions. There's six up front and then 12 after. The six up front is like the quickie six question screener. Like, yes, no, do you have it? you know Kind of like include, exclude.
00:27:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
However, The longer section of the the remaining 12 questions is a bit more about like what type, what flavor. And the questions in both are actually quite revealing. And so you give an answer of never, rarely, sometimes, often, or very often to each of the 18 questions.
00:28:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Those all have a point value associated with them. And then we add up those points, and they give brackets for like low, medium, moderate, high, very high, jack level. So sorry, I keep saying that.
00:28:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, you broke the scale, dude.
00:28:14
Jack Thomas
it's cool i'll i'll own it that's fine that's fine it's fine it's fine
00:28:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You broke the scale. I'm so proud of you. One thing I've noticed is that when I was filling it out, is that there are some things that I answered a certain way now.
00:28:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that if you'd asked me 20 years ago, I would have asked a little bit differently. So I don't know if it was like, I have menopause brain. So which gives you, i don't know how old you are, Jack, but you don't seem old enough for perimenopause.
00:28:41
Jack Thomas
Oh, thank you.
00:28:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But that like gives you another little swirl of like various flavors and spices. And so there were some things that I was like, ooh,
00:28:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I feel like that nudged me to my 30 that I was like, oh, so um so that's another interesting thing. And I wonder if you've had that experience. Has anything evolved over as you've aged?
00:29:08
Jack Thomas
Oh, for sure. Yeah, for me, definitely. I mean, i I am old enough to be perimenopausal, but I have an excellent skincare regimen, so thank you.
00:29:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
00:29:16
Jack Thomas
um
00:29:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We'll talk later. Jack, you're not.
00:29:17
Jack Thomas
one of One of my, one of my mul oh, yes, yeah, yeah, I am, dude.
00:29:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Get out of here. You're not that old. No, you're not. get out of here.
00:29:22
Jack Thomas
One one of my many obsessions, my hyper-focus is skincare. um But ah i I think, yes, as I've aged, I've actually created coping mechanisms that have made things better.
00:29:34
Jack Thomas
Like, I probably would have broken the scale doubly for not if not for that. My greatest coping mechanism, which i'll I'll share a picture of it so you guys can share it in the show notes for Patreon people. The only system I've ever created for myself that works is actually over here on my wall.
00:29:48
Jack Thomas
You can't you can't see it, but nothing gets done without this. And it's probably worth noting that as a person with ADHD and autism, I'm an entrepreneur and I run three businesses and and they're all successful.
00:30:00
Jack Thomas
you know And so it's like, I think you really do just have to find your groove, right? And find find your systems. And I know that some people who are in the in the autism or ADHD community are gonna like cancel me for saying that, but you know whatever, that's fine. um But ah so I think coping mechanisms help. I also think, and i just for just for anybody who is listening,
00:30:19
Jack Thomas
If you are a female identifying person that feels like you might, you know, have ADHD and Sherry, please obviously stop stop me if I'm wrong here because I'm i'm not the scientist in the room. But like if you have some other kind of neurodivergence, it can like multiply the effects of some of the symptoms of a ADHD and it can tone down.
00:30:40
Jack Thomas
some of the symptoms of ADHD, depending on what your other kind of neurodivergence is, whether that's autism or anxiety or whatever. And female identifying people, I think we get misdiagnosed or late diagnosed pretty often because there are so many sort of contraindications and comorbidities and, and things like that. yeah,
00:30:57
Jack Thomas
Yeah, it's gotten better over time. It's gotten manageable over time. um Also, I don't know if this is like coming up later in the show or not, but if you can be your own boss, you can actually harness like a lot of the good parts of this and kiss a lot of the bad parts goodbye.
00:31:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, my God. All right. We got to get to brain chemistry. Okay.
00:31:16
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:31:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
because Because this is, Sherry, you have read and thought extensively about the brain chemistry part. And this relates to, Jack, so much of what you just said about absolutely your own boss focusing on the right thing, interested at such an insane level that you almost don't hear anything, so on and so, and being good teachers, so on and so forth.
00:31:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, so, and it's great to hear all the strategies that you've picked up and at which I assume like you were diagnosed, well, you were diagnosed like within the last 10 years or so.
00:31:48
Jack Thomas
Yeah, when i was 30, Mm-hmm.
00:31:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so,
00:31:48
EDHD
you
00:31:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, so that's given you like some time to like come up with strategies, and I don't know if you've gotten any coaching or anything like that. But then then let's talk about the neurochemistry of this. So with ADHD, there's sort of like two things to think about. One has to do with dopamine in the brain.
00:32:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it's it's not that people with ADHD are sort of low on dopamine or you don't produce as much dopamine, but what happens is um when dopamine is released by your brain, there's something that...
00:32:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
something called dopamine transporters and what they do whenever a neurotransmitter is emitted, there's transporters that kind of like vacuum it up, scoop it up and process it so that it's not just like a positive feedback loop where you're just getting like fire hose of dopamine, although that sounds fun.
00:32:32
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:32:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But um so there's kind yeah, so there's regulation. But what's happening with ADHD is those transporters are scooping up the dopamine too quickly. So people with ADHD kind of have,
00:32:44
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:32:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah they can feel the low dopamine, but it's because of that transporter situation. It's not that your brain isn't producing it. So it's like getting scooped up too soon. And so what that can manifest in is behaviors that are going to get more dopamine because like if it's getting scooped away, let's get some more. And what are the activities that can do that for you? And this does relate to the hyper focus, the activities that you hyper focus on.
00:33:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If we were to to take a peek into your brain, boop boop those are dopamine hits. And when and so that's why it's feeling so reinforcing and you could stick with it for so long. So I'm going to name three people who have ADHD.
00:33:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I want to know if you're surprised by this. Michael Phelps, Michael Jordan and Simone Biles. So they're all three very good.
00:33:42
Jack Thomas
Not surprised.
00:33:44
EDHD
Yeah, not really.
00:33:44
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:33:45
EDHD
Yeah.
00:33:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. So what do you have to do to become top of your sport? Focus to the exclusion of all else.
00:33:53
Jack Thomas
I'm hyper focused.
00:33:53
EDHD
Yeah, like, yeah, to to the exclusion of all other things.
00:33:54
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:33:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:33:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like they may not, I don't, I don't know anything about them personally, but like, they may not be able to like, figure out how to take a shower every day or, you know, make a meal or something like that. But the hyper focus on an activity that produced a lot of dopamine that, and, and that allowed them to put the hours in that, like the rest of us mere mortals, like probably would find that to be frustrating or difficult to kind of put that type of focus into it. So that's the hyper focus. It's usually a dopamine chasing endeavor. And that's why focusing on things that aren't stimulating is painful.
00:34:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's painful. So yeah, sorry.
00:34:34
EDHD
So we're constantly chasing the dragon.
00:34:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If you're chasing the dragon, the dragon's back.
00:34:36
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah. Like, imagine can you imagine, can you imagine asking Simone Biles to create shareholder value in an office job?
00:34:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Her
00:34:45
Jack Thomas
Like, ah
00:34:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
head explode. Her head would explode.
00:34:48
Jack Thomas
no way, dog.
00:34:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. So like so so that's that's the hyperfocus. And it and it so it seems like, okay, but it' this is a disorder characterized by an attention. This makes no sense. So let's talk about the next piece. Prefrontal cortex is a part of your brain that's in charge of what they call executive function, which I would say is basically the command center of your brain.
00:35:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is the manager who manages a whole bunch. They have a lot of jobs, this manager in your brain. One job of the manager is thought filtering. So your brain's producing all kinds of stimuli, right?
00:35:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're taking in stimuli, your brain is processing it, all kinds of thoughts. In ADHD, the manager is is a bit underperforming relative to somebody who doesn't have ADHD.
00:35:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A sleep on the job.
00:35:36
EDHD
I don't know why you're nailing me to the cross like that, Sherry.
00:35:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a little sleep on the job
00:35:38
EDHD
Okay.
00:35:38
Jack Thomas
I am so attacked, so attacked right now.
00:35:39
EDHD
i
00:35:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, so, but what's happening there is so then the thought filtering is not happening as much. And that's why the inattentiveness, especially when there's not a dopamine hit going on is so painful because like, there's the like kind of like a little bit of a thought spiral and what the manager should be doing is sorting through those thoughts, picking one out, making a plan, getting down to brass tacks and, and, and moving things forward.
00:36:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But when the manager is like underperforming, you'll see sort of the thought spinning.
00:36:15
Jack Thomas
So the manager's job is to process that information, regulate that
00:36:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Another job of the manager is emotion regulation. So we have this other part of our brain called the amygdala, which is kind of a lookout. This is the one who's like, I'm on the lookout for danger and threats.
00:36:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I will let you know. I'm going to put on a siren if if.
00:36:29
EDHD
Thank you.
00:36:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
we should be afraid of something and that sort of thing. So the manager's job is also to process that information and regulate that information. But a sleepy manager is not going to be as good at that. So like when anxiety hits, it can spin a little bit.
00:36:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And when ah anxiety spins and thoughts are spinning, so you can, you might relate to that experience of like these things are spinning. And it's a little difficult to like land the plane, so to speak.
00:37:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you might need some time to like decompress to sort of like calm that experience down. But that's where the inattentiveness comes is that when things are boring or mundane,
00:37:11
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:37:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's That process is making it super difficult to focus. But then you stumble upon the thing you love and you're like, ding. Yeah, you get that you get that huge dopamine rush, which then causes hyper focus.
00:37:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then in the end that's where Michael Phelps you know won the Olympics because of that.
00:37:36
EDHD
Yeah, i I'm trying to think of like the sustained effect of that because like, like Michael Phelps or using any athlete as an example there, like you're you're hyper fixating on the idea of winning, right?
00:37:49
EDHD
So it's not even like you're or like if we're talking about woodworkers, you're hyper fixating on the idea of the final object and that sustains you enough to push through.
00:37:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, I don't know.
00:37:59
Jack Thomas
Oh, dog, I can't relate to that, but please go on.
00:38:02
EDHD
Well, I'm trying, I'm trying to figure that out.
00:38:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, no, no, no. I think the process may be stimulating dopamine real time.
00:38:05
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:38:07
EDHD
Yeah?
00:38:08
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:38:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the process. It's in not the destination.
00:38:09
EDHD
Hmm.
00:38:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's a process.
00:38:12
EDHD
Hmm.
00:38:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because in in sometimes in kids, it can even just be playing a video game. So little kids with ADHD, particularly boys, look at like obsessed with video games and put not a you don't have to have ADHD to get obsessed with video games.
00:38:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why are you looking at me when you say that?
00:38:29
Jack Thomas
yeah ah
00:38:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Just because I was up no joke till 1am playing a video game last night has nothing to do with this. And by 1am he means 3am. But no, it's kind of a common thing maybe with boys with ADHD.
00:38:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it can be something like that, a video game. It can be all kinds of different activities. That felt very personal.
00:38:49
EDHD
Yeah, nap now you know how it fucking feels, buddy.
00:38:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh! Because Sherry knows, I mean, Sherry and I have, Sherry, we've known each other, what, 20 something years?
00:38:52
Jack Thomas
Yeah, Paul.
00:38:52
EDHD
Okay.
00:38:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Since 20, 1990, 2020 actually, I think I met you in 2020 or 1999. All right, 26 years. So yeah, I've played a lot of video games through our, in the time we've known each other.
00:39:06
EDHD
yeah
00:39:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. That may be part of a different issue, but. It is. so
00:39:15
Jack Thomas
for another episode.
00:39:16
EDHD
We're going to skip right over that one.
00:39:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, we've already ruled out ADHD, so now we need to go to the second explanation. How many podcasts are co-hosting with an ex-husband and ex-wife, right? Like, what the fuck? What are we doing, right?
00:39:27
EDHD
Love the energy.
00:39:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No idea.
00:39:28
Jack Thomas
Love it.
00:39:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's fantastic.
00:39:29
Jack Thomas
Love it.
00:39:30
EDHD
can I go ahead.
00:39:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
if if i could wait eric If I can just summarize the brain chemistry thing, and Sherry, you tell me if i if I got this right.
00:39:30
EDHD
Hmm. ahead
00:39:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. <unk> a little bit but The ADHD brain has, in general, lower dopamine levels than, let's say, the neurotypical brain. And that's because of an increased clearance, right? Yes. It's not the inability to synthesize it.
00:39:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That lower dopamine level makes doing things that are uninteresting nearly impossible. It's a worse experience. You want to tear your skin off because... you're so low dopamine, you're crawling out of your skin for a little more intellectual interest or something that just stimulates you more, right? So if you're a neurotypical brain, I just want to give like an analogy to try to relate to this. Because I think if you don't experience it, you might be like, I don't get it. It would be like a neurotypical person. You're telling them like stare at the wall all day.
00:40:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You'd be like, I can't. It's so boring. I can't like I can't sustain my attention.
00:40:25
EDHD
Yeah, it's a form of torture.
00:40:27
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:40:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, I'm going to start torture. Yeah, I'm going start daydreaming and doing other things.
00:40:28
EDHD
Yeah.
00:40:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You So like, it' so that's kind of a neurotypical person that might come.
00:40:35
EDHD
Yeah, that was school for us.
00:40:36
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:40:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. You know, that's what our, za remember our episode with Jeff Hein, the painter, he talked about being in school.
00:40:37
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:40:41
EDHD
Yeah.
00:40:41
Jack Thomas
yeah
00:40:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He's like, I had to take these important tests that could impact the rest of my life.
00:40:47
EDHD
Mm-hmm. You look out the window and then oops, four hours and the test is over.
00:40:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he goes, right.
00:40:51
Jack Thomas
So I actually reached out to him.
00:40:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he left him blank.
00:40:53
Jack Thomas
I reached out to him on Instagram and I was like, i was like, dog, you know, you have ADHD, right?
00:40:54
EDHD
Did you?
00:40:57
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:40:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But when he found art or something he was interested in, days would pass without him noticing. So that that comes back to the second part of the review, Sherry. So it's like we're like lower baseline dopamine. So when you have a spike, something you find is interesting. You're going to ride it. Holy shit. That spike feels amazing. In some ways, you might think about it yourself medicating. Like you're trying to get your brain up to where...
00:41:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you can be productive and interested.
00:41:27
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:41:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that explains this apparent paradox of like, I can't concentrate on something. I'm hyper concentrated on something. Like if if the baseline is lower, but the spikes stand out more, that's exactly explains like the neurochemistry behind the behavior to me.
00:41:43
EDHD
Okay, can i can I ask a question about chemistry then? I, having never officially been diagnosed with ADHD, I was never put on stimulants.
00:41:55
EDHD
But i I understand that there is a relationship between folks with ADHD and stimulants, whether that be prescription like Ritalin or what have you, or just like coffee.
00:41:55
Jack Thomas
but I understand that there is a relationship between the public.
00:42:06
EDHD
Or like for some reason Mountain Dew is, you know, pretty heavy in that community. So like what chemically speaking, what is that relationship and why do stimulants help to focus the ADHD brain?
00:42:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So they're basically going help with this the situation with your dopamine, which will allow you to like calm down enough to be able to do like to tolerate what you're having trouble tolerating um and also operate through prefrontal cortex as well.
00:42:23
EDHD
Hmm.
00:42:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it's going to kind of The thing about stimulants is that they work for a few hours.
00:42:36
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:42:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you take one in the morning and it could get you like through most of the day and then they kind of wear off.
00:42:41
EDHD
Mm-hmm.
00:42:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So have to like take them regularly. um But there's other things that can help as well. but And there's non-stimulant medications too that operate actually through norepinephrine, which is also involved in ADHD. So yeah.
00:43:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so Oftentimes children take stimulants. Sometimes adults will take stimulants. If you have cardiovascular risk factors, you may want to think about whether that's a good choice. Talk to your doctor about that, but there are non-stimulant medications that are also an option that just kind of operate through different pathways, but can help settle things as well.
00:43:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Those medications aren't like the acute effect of a stimulant, but they would have more of a kind of longstanding effect and take a little while to kick in. But like if you took one, you know, it's going to work by noon kind of thing. Yeah. So.
00:43:32
EDHD
So the correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but the stimulant is effectively helping to regulate the dopamine vacuum. And then like you can function for longer as a normal person.
00:43:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:43:42
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:43:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Yes. yeah Let's not say normal person.
00:43:47
EDHD
I like, you know, I'm not trying like this, that I'm not a judgment way to say that it's fair.
00:43:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know, but I'm trying so hard not to. yeah but One of the things I said to Sherry approaching this episode, and I want to say it publicly, is like this idea of like derogatory terminology for neurodegenerative.
00:44:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
we're all so different, right? And what we call is quote unquote normal or not abnormal. I hate that. But I know what i know there's reasons for it, but I just don't want to be derogatory about it Like we're all different and we all function.
00:44:11
EDHD
Well, the.
00:44:14
EDHD
The iron.
00:44:14
Jack Thomas
that's why That's why I don't like that term neurodivergent. And I use neuro spicy, even though people feel like it's belittling of the, you know, of the disability aspect.
00:44:17
EDHD
Yeah.
00:44:22
EDHD
No, I'm with you on that, buddy.
00:44:22
Jack Thomas
Cause it's like, I'm not divergent dog.
00:44:24
EDHD
Yeah.
00:44:24
Jack Thomas
Like, you know.
00:44:25
EDHD
No, the the irony to me is that the people who qualify normal are look like Paul.
00:44:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:44:31
EDHD
and And therefore, you know, that like people who who function differently are the ones who are labeled neurodivergent.
00:44:33
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:44:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:44:40
EDHD
So Paul, to your point, it's not necessarily normal.
00:44:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. I mean, society.
00:44:43
EDHD
It's just, you know, different brain chemistries.
00:44:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's a variation. It's a variation.
00:44:46
EDHD
Yeah.
00:44:46
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:44:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And there's all kinds of other variations for different parts of our brains. Our brains are very complex.
00:44:50
EDHD
Yeah.
00:44:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And yeah, like the field of psychiatry and psychology of like put things into boxes. But it doesn't mean that if you didn't fit cleanly in a box, that you're normal and everything's okay.
00:45:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, cause there's all kinds of things that, so. So I'm still fucked up, just not in the ADHD bucket.
00:45:05
EDHD
Yeah, but that's a different episode, buddy.
00:45:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Unfortunately for him, we haven't quite discovered what the problem Okay.
00:45:08
Jack Thomas
yeah
00:45:09
EDHD
That's...
00:45:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sorry. I want to come back to the second part of the summary because lot's been said. The second part of the summary was about the prefrontal cortex, being sort of the moderator or the rationalizer or the, you know, kind of the coach, like telling everyone, calm the fuck down.
00:45:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We have a plan. It's going to be okay. Oh, that, that noise in the back your head from the amygdala telling you to stress and that everything's not going to work out. Shut the fuck up for now. It's going to be fine.
00:45:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So if the prefrontal cortex is not typically developed or under connected, It doesn't do its job calming down some of that noise from your amygdala, which is like the stress center or the alerts or the intrusive thoughts or the impulsive thoughts or impulsive actions. Like those things all need to be moderated by the prefrontal cortex.
00:45:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And if it's not doing its job, some of those impulses and thoughts and ruminations and spiraling and anxiety goes unchecked in the ADHD brain. And it's a sliding scale, right? It's not on or off. There's different levels of prefrontal cortex you know moderation. So that's the second part of the ADHD brain that is connected to also this dopamine you know aspect. So I think the two together kind of really, to me, like Sherry you know was explaining all this over dinner, and it really crystallized
00:46:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like why my wife interrupts me when I'm doing something important all the time. Like I look at her, i look up, like I'm, oh, okay, this is the best. This is the best.
00:46:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm in a work meeting, okay? Online. 30 PhDs are staring at me on my computer. I'm giving a presentation. Okay, I'm the one presenting to a whole room of important smart people doing great science.
00:46:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm talking and she sees an Amazon package by our front door.
00:47:02
EDHD
Mmm.
00:47:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And she hears me talking and she looks at me and says, hey, what's in the box?
00:47:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I am mid-sentence. So the TNF-alpha receptor obviously is not you know it's not inhibited fully because it's it's being internalized and and going to the lysosome. And what's in the box?
00:47:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And i looked up and I gave her such a fucking look. Like, you must be joking me right now. You must be fucking kidding me right now.
00:47:35
EDHD
I love Vicky so goddamn much.
00:47:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then she goes, and she sees the look on my face and she goes, oh, sorry. She goes, what's in the box
00:47:45
Jack Thomas
Oh my God. I love Vicky. Jesus.
00:47:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She whispers it!
00:47:53
Jack Thomas
oh my god i love vicky je
00:47:54
EDHD
Amazing.
00:47:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I almost fucking died!
00:47:56
EDHD
Fucking amazing.
00:47:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I almost died. So her prefrontal cortex was not the fucking manager was like asleep at the switch. Like she had this impulsive thought. yeah It needs to be asked now.
00:48:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hey, what's in the box? She had no, like it, like the rational thoughts did not process through her brain. Like he's doing something important. I shouldn't interrupt. That's the job of your prefrontal cortex to moderate yeah these impulses.
00:48:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:48:23
EDHD
Okay, can i can I tell a funny thing that like I am still slightly embarrassed about that is basically that, but in a different flavor?
00:48:23
Jack Thomas
But part...
00:48:31
EDHD
So all growing up, um I would 100% do that. like I would just interrupt people with a question, and then I learned that that's not an okay thing to do. So as like a teenager and as like a young adult,
00:48:45
EDHD
what i I didn't even clock that I was doing it, I would like if somebody was in conversation with another person and i had a thing that I had to ask them, I would just like walk up to them and then like wait for the conversation to finish.
00:48:59
EDHD
So then I was just like awkwardly standing next to them while they were having a conversation. Because part of my brain was like, don't interrupt. But the other part of my brain was like, this is an important question.
00:49:09
EDHD
I have to ask it as soon as the available time is there.
00:49:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you're just staring at them, Eric?
00:49:11
EDHD
And I would just fucking watch them have a conversation until they were like, what do you want?
00:49:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You did.
00:49:16
EDHD
Why are you here?
00:49:18
Jack Thomas
So, dog,
00:49:18
EDHD
and I'd be like, is this the right blue? Jerk.
00:49:22
Jack Thomas
you you are describing me at every party currently as a 38-year-old. Because what else do you do, right I mean, i don't know. no But really, can somebody answer that question?
00:49:33
Jack Thomas
What do I do?
00:49:33
EDHD
Yeah, I'm not gonna remember the question later.
00:49:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i
00:49:38
Jack Thomas
ah
00:49:39
EDHD
okay
00:49:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So do we want to segue to yeah creativity?
00:49:44
EDHD
Yeah, how how does this affect the creative brain?
00:49:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. So so why? Yeah.
00:49:47
Jack Thomas
This is where people are going nod their heads, I think.
00:49:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but kissing Yes.
00:49:49
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:49:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:49:49
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:49:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because is it a superpower? Is it a distraction? Like what, how does this interact with our creative and art life? Okay. Well, Imagine this. so create So one aspect of ADHD, what we talked about was unfiltered thoughts.
00:50:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If you are in a brainstorming sesh, one of the first things you say to the group is no filter.
00:50:12
EDHD
Oh, yeah.
00:50:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because you want to get as many ideas as possible.
00:50:15
EDHD
No bad ideas here.
00:50:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now, a heavily filtered brain. And I also want to say, like, there's another, that the other extreme is also problematic. Because, like, we're acting like... oh there's Too much filtering?
00:50:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, absolutely. You don't want someone who's so over-filtered at a brainstorming session. They're just going to, they'll overthink every idea and say nothing. Because they've ruled everything out before anything came out of their mouth.
00:50:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that's a great point. So you want a fire hose person.
00:50:39
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:50:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a great point, Cher. So... And then the other thing with the unfiltered thoughts that characterize an ADHD brain is their thoughts are real time being affected by stimuli around them, especially visual stimuli. And so you're getting...
00:50:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
thoughts and connections that maybe other people would not come up with. Sometimes they might be like asinine, but then other times they're like, that was fucking brilliant. Like, where did that come from?
00:51:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like one thing about Vicky is she's hysterically funny and it's on a, there's like, you say something and within a quarter second, she's got quip and you're just like, are the, I don't have that gift of humor.
00:51:17
EDHD
Oh, yeah.
00:51:22
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:51:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Cause like my brain doesn't. Yeah.
00:51:26
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Vicky's fucking hilarious. Yeah.
00:51:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She is.
00:51:28
EDHD
Uh-huh.
00:51:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so actually one of my, ah another person I love with ADHD is Trevor Noah. um He has actually a podcast episode on ADHD.
00:51:35
EDHD
Hmm.
00:51:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
really highly recommend it was like back in the fall. It's a, it's a great listen. um And obviously a super creative and very funny person. um So two, one, The second way ADHD can create creativity is...
00:51:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So better brainstorming because you're yeah like unfiltered. Your brain is rapid firing all these ideas and the moderator is not really doing much. He's right letting it go. So you're getting all this unadulterated idea ideating.
00:52:02
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
00:52:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um you know Where things can fall apart is like bringing those to fruition, but... but We're just talking about the part that could really good for creativity. Ideation. So the second thing is the hyper focus that we talked about.
00:52:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um So putting that sort of time into an activity is going to, you know, that's going to lead to something creative, right?
00:52:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like if you can really zone that deeply.
00:52:29
EDHD
hmm
00:52:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And there's also some literature to show that people with ADHD can get into flow states more easily because of the hyper-focused ability.
00:52:38
Jack Thomas
It's
00:52:38
EDHD
hmm hmm
00:52:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The build hyper-dopamine rush. Dude, that is Jack. That is you. Eric, that is you. Jeff Hine, if you're listening, that is you, brother. Yeah.
00:52:47
Jack Thomas
Def Jeff.
00:52:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. All right. The third way is we talked about this to the visual and movement learning people. And when you were talking, Eric, i was like, oh, that's so that's so on point with this, the people with an ADHD brain, the visuals and movement like bodily movements, anything manual like.
00:53:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the brain processes that much more quickly than the verbal stuff. So as you're as the unfiltered thoughts are happening and you're super processing images really fast because verbal, like words slow you down.
00:53:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you're like, get out of here.
00:53:25
EDHD
1,000%. Yep. Yep.
00:53:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Words, numbers, were talking about math.
00:53:26
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:53:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're like like, get out of here.
00:53:28
EDHD
yep
00:53:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I need movement.
00:53:29
EDHD
yep
00:53:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I need images. So your brain is like super wired for that. And so any visual art, you're going to see like creativity. And I'm like in awe of people of like artistic brains.
00:53:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm like, how do you do that? Right. Because that's why I was like, like i don't like this sort of derogatory stance about, oh, it's a disorder because like it's a gift to certain applications.
00:53:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, absolutely.
00:53:54
EDHD
Yes. All right. i don't I agree with that. It is a gift, right? um
00:54:00
Jack Thomas
but also we live in a where the economic component of it doesn't, like, it's to monetize and maybe that's like, we have a bias against it because we don't necessarily do that when you get out of school.
00:54:01
EDHD
But also we live in a world where like the economic component of it doesn't...
00:54:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
00:54:06
EDHD
It's hard to monetize creativity. And maybe that's why like we have a bias against it because we don't necessarily see that as like
00:54:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:54:15
EDHD
Well, when you get out of school, you get your you know graduate degree and then you go work at a firm and you do what the people above you say. And then therefore you are a contributing member of society. It's like, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm just like cutting dovetails over here. That's my hands know how to do. i don't know what else to do.
00:54:31
Jack Thomas
Hands down.
00:54:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I mean, like another important piece of creativity is execution too. So like, and and that can be the part that where there's a little bit of a struggle with people with ADHD is like the the steps and the execution, the boring part.
00:54:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So like how much of a project- I mean, it depends on- Is boring parts. It depends, right? Because- probably depends on Is the idea ideation the fun part that gives you the dopamine spike? Or for some people- Process.
00:54:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The doing of the thing yeah is the is the spike, right? I mean, Michael Jordan loved playing basketball, right? Of course he wanted to win.
00:55:00
EDHD
Yeah.
00:55:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I think he just loved the game. He yeah loved the process.
00:55:04
EDHD
Yeah.
00:55:04
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:55:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The feeling of... You loved the process of woodworking. I know you like the final pieces, but...
00:55:09
EDHD
For sure. yeah yeah, yeah. No, the, the, the, the bringing the thing into existence is the reason to do the thing, right? Like that's the part that excites me.
00:55:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:55:20
EDHD
And then once it's there, like I, maybe this is a a variation of an ADHD brain, but like, once I get the first coat of finish on it, I'm like, I gotta put four or five more coats of finish on it.
00:55:31
EDHD
Like I'm over it. Like I've, it's done, you know, like I don't give a fuck anymore. Now I got to spend more hours doing it.
00:55:38
Jack Thomas
this goes back This goes back to that, I can't remember what episode this was.
00:55:39
EDHD
So
00:55:42
Jack Thomas
Maybe it might have even been like the art versus craft episode, like the first episode I was on with you guys, but the ideas are not the work is like so relevant to this.
00:55:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:55:49
EDHD
yeah
00:55:50
Jack Thomas
you know um like i think I agree. i agree with all the people who will probably try to cancel me after this episode and say that like ADHD is just a disability, right but I think that
00:56:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, for some it is. it just depends, right, on their perspective.
00:56:04
Jack Thomas
Totally, yeah, absolutely.
00:56:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, their life.
00:56:06
Jack Thomas
Not just their perspective, but their environment, right?
00:56:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:56:08
Jack Thomas
And so like, I think that if you, like what Eric's talking about, if you can get yourself to a place where like you can love the process, but also you can love the ideation, then like you can find that flow state, you can be in your optimal place, but not a lot of us have the privilege to get there because ADHD, it's basically, not to be like overtly political, but it's like, it is not um it is not profitable in a capitalistic society to most people, right?
00:56:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:56:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:56:37
EDHD
Yeah, that's what I was getting at, right?
00:56:39
Jack Thomas
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
00:56:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:56:39
EDHD
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:40
Jack Thomas
And so it's like, if you... you know i I used to work in tech, right? Like after I was a college professor, i left being a college professor and I was working in tech as a learning designer. um and worked for a bunch of ed tech platforms and you know corporations like designing learning for celebrities, for influencers, for you know nonprofit professionals, all of it.
00:57:01
Jack Thomas
I was that person in every brainstorming session who was like the unfiltered, you know, like here are all your high level incredible ideas. And then as soon as I got milked for those ideas, they laid me off.
00:57:15
EDHD
Mm-hmm.
00:57:16
Jack Thomas
I had, they they want the ideas. They want the unfiltered person. They want the creativity because they don't all have it themselves necessarily. So in that way, it's like ADHD can bring this kind of superpower to neurotypical teams and spaces.
00:57:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:57:31
Jack Thomas
But dog, as soon as they've gotten what they want from you, they will they will cast you aside. So you have to find a way that you can like take that creativity and then also execute on your own and make it work for you.
00:57:42
Jack Thomas
You have to create that space for yourself sometimes. And it's hard to do.
00:57:45
EDHD
You have to create a lane. Yeah, there's no lane for you to exist in.
00:57:47
Jack Thomas
You do. There's no lane for you.
00:57:49
EDHD
I mean, even in the content space, right? like Like the people who make the first iteration of the objects are not the people who profit on the trends because the people who are better at the business, the monetizing, the the the yeah, all of those things.
00:58:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The execution.
00:58:03
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:58:04
EDHD
Those are the people who make the trends blow up. You know, the the the overwhelming majority of hyper successful YouTube channels are like reaction and or dissection channels, right?
00:58:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:58:16
EDHD
They will take science and break it down or they will take a creative act and they will ah critique it right there. They're an art critic for for lack of a better genre, whereas like the people who are actually creating it's really fucking hard to to gather an audience on there. And then what happens is once you gather an audience, you go, but I don't have any like new ideas right now. So I need to like take a break. And then they go, well, that's not monetizable.
00:58:43
EDHD
You know, you can't recharge your batteries.
00:58:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:58:45
Jack Thomas
Yeah, the you have to be consistent, right? Like you can't you can't just show up with like the amazing unfiltered ideas and boom, boom, boom, and then like stop showing up or only show up every now and then when you have a new idea.
00:58:47
EDHD
Yeah.
00:58:57
EDHD
Mm hmm.
00:58:57
Jack Thomas
The consistency is the part that's hard to execute on as a creative, you know?
00:58:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:59:01
Jack Thomas
Like if Isaac Newton was a content creator today, nobody would know what the fuck gravity is, right? Because like...
00:59:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah ah That's a great quote. Oh my God. ah Let me ask, and maybe no one knows the answer to this question. Maybe it's unanswerable.
00:59:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But is ADHD brain more prevalent in the arts because of the creativity component we've been talking about?
00:59:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think probably not just arts because we do see the athletes. Oh, athletes. Yeah, that's true.
00:59:37
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:59:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But that's also kind of a more physical...
00:59:40
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:59:40
EDHD
I was thinking of the trades too. Like I wonder how many, and this this could be a generational thing as well.
00:59:42
Jack Thomas
Trades.
00:59:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:59:46
EDHD
Like folks coming up in our times and before us who had ADHD were like, we were just told we were stupid, you know, or like bad students or like you couldn't sit down, shut the fuck up and listen.
00:59:50
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:59:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:59:59
EDHD
So we got put in technical schools, at least from the the boy perspective of of having some low level ADHD. Yeah. Yeah, like we just got put in vocational schools and they were like, well, you're never going to be, ah you're never going to get a college degree. So learn how to fucking lay brick.
01:00:16
EDHD
You know, that's your best bet.
01:00:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I think those are like also sort of like less traditional settings, office settings, school settings are so highly structured and very verbally oriented.
01:00:21
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:00:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's just not going to be a match for like this set of traits.
01:00:31
EDHD
Yeah.
01:00:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that's why it can be so.
01:00:33
EDHD
i'm not saying I'm not saying I disagree with that assessment.
01:00:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:37
EDHD
What I am saying is, that like coming back to the economics of it, it is you are immediately put into a bucket of you are less economically important than people who can think better than you.
01:00:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:00:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:00:51
Jack Thomas
Yeah. And then if you're female, if you're female, you might kind of have the opposite experience of like, you're underperforming or whatever, like, or quote unquote, just go to trade school.
01:00:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that's tough. Mm
01:01:00
Jack Thomas
They're going to say, you're a genius, but take these antidepressants and keep going, you know, because it's like, it's like, you're actually fine, but you're just, you're just depressed or you're just stressed out.
01:01:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
hmm.
01:01:09
Jack Thomas
You just have anxiety. Like, that's what's wrong.
01:01:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see.
01:01:11
Jack Thomas
And it's like, No, dog, like, you know, ADHD and autism as well. It's like, it's not just for girls. Like, just because I'm not a little boy who's in the trains doesn't mean I don't have something wrong with me.
01:01:21
Jack Thomas
You know, like, yeah.
01:01:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's definitely underrepresented in science, I would say, because I don't, i you know, a science seems to predispose for verbal learners who are not fidgety and can sit still for like massive periods of time doing what sometimes seems like can be very boring things.
01:01:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know, it I don't know like the numbers on that, but and I think it also depends on um whether somebody has learned strategies and yeah treatment and things things like that.
01:01:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So they might thrive in all kinds of different settings. Well, I do i would just say anecdotally, I have way more ADHD friends in the creative arts that i had than I know in science.
01:02:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But in that
01:02:09
Jack Thomas
Impulsivity plays into that too, I'm sure.
01:02:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, probably at least for science, yeah.
01:02:12
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Impulsivity is not is not a good thing if you're in the science.
01:02:17
Jack Thomas
Right. But for artists, it's like, oh, you're not impulsive.
01:02:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
01:02:19
Jack Thomas
Are you really even an artist? You know, like, come on.
01:02:21
EDHD
yeah
01:02:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Exactly.
01:02:22
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:02:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so you
01:02:22
EDHD
I just find it very funny that like Paul is well known for sitting in just like a dining chair while we record the podcast. You have a clicker and I, I constantly just lean back and rock in this fucking chair.
01:02:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I can sit still. and He can really sit still. And you know, what's funny is now this whole, this whole idea of like society has biased our young people towards college is the only way college is the only way, you know, that's the only, you're not, you know, the smart kids go to college and the dumb kids don't like that whole, like that bullshit.
01:02:39
EDHD
Bananas.
01:02:40
Jack Thomas
Bananas.
01:02:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. And I love the trades, you know, I do. So with our daughter, I was totally open. Like, I'm like, you don't have to necessarily go to college. You just have to do something you really enjoy because you're going to a lot of it.
01:03:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You even engaged her in woodworking. i yeah i Yeah, I engaged her in woodworking.
01:03:11
EDHD
Hell yeah.
01:03:12
Jack Thomas
Awesome.
01:03:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was totally open.
01:03:14
EDHD
The Copper Piglet Chopsticks, baby!
01:03:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but The Copper Piglet.
01:03:16
Jack Thomas
ah
01:03:17
EDHD
yeah
01:03:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Cher, what happened? Well, we saw Ruby flourishing in school, academically, in the school the way that it's currently set up.
01:03:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She can sit still for hours. Yeah. staring at that screen. She is interested in almost anything she can get into. Like there's not one thing.
01:03:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the more I saw it, the more I realized maybe college is for her. Like her brain, she wants more education. She wants to stay in the school system.
01:03:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's a good match for her. The idea of leaving that path strikes fear. is She's like, I don't know anything. I'm not ready for a job. I'm not ready to work. Like I don't want to work with my hands. Like sit me down in a class and let's learn.
01:04:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so I was like, you know what, even though I'm an equal, like I love the trades and like, but you got to look at the person. And I think both of us realized Ruby is well suited for academia.
01:04:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, like Jack was saying before, like finding your lane. Yeah, she found her lane and it is college in this case.
01:04:15
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:04:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So of fine, no problem. but Like we'll point there. Now the second point, Eric, you and i the podcast, you and I have different fucking approaches to this podcast.
01:04:27
EDHD
I was thinking about this earlier on in the show and it didn't come back up, so I didn't bring it back up.
01:04:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right?
01:04:32
EDHD
Yeah.
01:04:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let's bring it back up.
01:04:33
EDHD
Okay.
01:04:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm Mr. Structure. We have to have structure.
01:04:35
EDHD
Mm-hmm.
01:04:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We have to have like a framework. You're like, let's ride, bitches.
01:04:40
EDHD
Let's fucking ride.
01:04:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let's fly by the sea of that.
01:04:41
EDHD
Let's see what happens. Fucking genuine spontaneity.
01:04:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah That gives him so much anxiety. Which, by the way, people without ADHD have anxiety.
01:04:48
EDHD
ah Dude, it was... All right.
01:04:51
EDHD
for For the folks listening, before the call, like on the pre-call, right when we were about to start, Paul was like, okay, you guys ready? Just let me think of my cold open. And I was like, just fucking wing it, bro. And he was like, why do you fucking do this to me?
01:05:08
Jack Thomas
And i' my AUDHD brain is sitting here going, well, maybe like have a loose plan, but then ride inside of it.
01:05:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So there's this...
01:05:14
Jack Thomas
Y'all are both making me real nervous right now.
01:05:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So there's this tension in our podcast that I think everyone loves and everyone says how great it is between like a bit of structure and a bit of chaos.
01:05:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Eric, you i absolutely like bring the chaos and I absolutely bring the structure. Are we capable of the opposite? A hundred percent.
01:05:37
EDHD
but Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There have been episodes, Eric, where you've brought the structure.
01:05:39
EDHD
Sure.
01:05:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, but I think our net.
01:05:41
EDHD
Few and far between, but they, they, one does exist. Yes. Um, so, ah well, I will also say i in, in the conversation earlier, we were talking about like the mix and match, right?
01:05:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And yeah, so I mean, go ahead.
01:05:52
EDHD
Like, like Vicky tends to lock onto people who, um, can provide structure. And that's what, what I was thinking about our podcast is like the reason that I push you to, uh, uh,
01:06:06
EDHD
towards spontaneity and chaos is because I know you're going to provide the safe space. That is the structure. I know enough to know that we can't just go on, like hit record and like talk about nothing because that's not an interesting podcast.
01:06:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, we did that a few episodes. Okay.
01:06:20
EDHD
We did. We've done it a couple of times. Listen, you got to spice it up a little bit. You got to bring in the chaos.
01:06:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
again
01:06:25
EDHD
but um like So Jack and I had a call earlier today with with KJ about a future endeavor. And we're talking through all of this. And Keith is diligently taking notes. And he's writing things down. And at some point, she was like, take notes. And I was like, he's got it. And like, that's, that's the relationship is i know that I need somebody can,
01:06:52
EDHD
kin like this can this can come off as arrogant sometimes, and I hope it doesn't. But like, I need somebody who can take down the ideas and then translate those ideas into reality.
01:07:05
EDHD
And um that's not because I think my ideas are better than what they can provide, but it's because like, I know that my strength is what you were talking about before, Sherry, is like the the just grabbing things out of space and saying them before my brain can go, that's a stupid fucking idea.
01:07:20
EDHD
And most them most of the time, they are stupid fucking ideas.
01:07:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:07:21
Jack Thomas
ah
01:07:25
EDHD
But like sometimes if you do that, and it's a numbers game, if you do that enough, sometimes you hit on something. And Paul, in this particular podcast, what I think we do really well, and you can tell me if you disagree, is like,
01:07:38
EDHD
we'll have a call for 45 minutes after this episode and talk about like what went well and what went poorly.
01:07:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:07:43
EDHD
And like, what are we doing for the next one?
01:07:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
now
01:07:45
EDHD
And in yada, yada, yada. And I won't remember 80% of that conversation. You'll remember 100% And you know, but like,
01:07:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is true.
01:07:53
Jack Thomas
why
01:07:55
EDHD
That's the give and take of like, we, we know and trust the other person and what they bring to the show. And you have that ability to like, take all of the chaos and put it into the show.
01:08:09
EDHD
and then within the boundaries of the show, i go, yeah, but like more chaos. Let's do the thing.
01:08:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:08:14
EDHD
Let's dance you and I.
01:08:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But see, that's a beautiful balance because if it was all structure all the time, it would be a bit dogmatic and boring. And so you add this flair, this unpredictability and the humor and the quick thinking that makes it more interesting, quite honestly. Like...
01:08:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you need both, right? You need a bit of structure and you need that flair that you bring of the chaos and the quick thinking and the crazy thought this and you bring us into new areas. This isn't like, i mean, I love to pat each other on the back and Eric, I love you dearly. But but quite honestly,
01:08:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it you have some of your tangents, what we call tangents, become such valuable points that I didn't even see a million.
01:09:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like I could sit there and think for a year and that wouldn't have occurred to me.
01:09:04
EDHD
but But I don't think that this... and Sherry, correct me if I'm wrong or if you think I'm wrong, but I don't think this is abnormal. I think so many people who have some level of ADHD um have like a business partner who is better at the business side of things so that they can be the creative voice.
01:09:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
01:09:24
EDHD
right like It's always... every great creative act or almost every great creative act that you can think of is like secretly to people. Most of the time it's one person who gets the credit, but like it's secretly the person who has the ideas and can in ah hyper fixate like
01:09:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:09:40
EDHD
let's he's not necessarily a popular figure, but let's take Walt Disney, right? Like the person with the vision and the drive and the hyper fixation. And then like the other Disney, whatever, or like whatever his business partner was of like the dude who's like, yeah, but how does that fucking make money?
01:09:57
EDHD
Like, how do we run a business?
01:09:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:09:59
Jack Thomas
Guys, i just I just remembered something. i So I was on the phone earlier this week with the IRS
01:10:09
Jack Thomas
and my accountant at the same time, three-way call, right? So numbers scare me, like numbers scare me, systems, all that kind of stuff scares me. And Eric, what you were just saying just reminded me that when I was on the call with the IRS and my accountant, I had the IRS agent cracking up because I was like, you know, i was like, hey, while you're while you're working on this form, I just need you to know something.
01:10:33
Jack Thomas
This man, my accountant that is on here on the phone with me, saving my ass right now, he's the third most important man in my life. And I mean that to my bones, y'all.
01:10:43
Jack Thomas
Like, they're like, number one is Greg, my husband.
01:10:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dude.
01:10:49
Jack Thomas
Number two is my dad. Number three is my accountant.
01:10:52
EDHD
ah
01:10:52
Jack Thomas
Like in that order, could not do anything without him, right? Because it's like these systems and numbers and stuff, I don't understand it, right? So it's like, I can just go off and be my weird neuro-spicy self And then say, Justin, make this work. Please take shoe box and tell me what to do. you know And he just makes it, he waves a wand and makes it better because he's he's just able to do that with his brain. It's amazing.
01:11:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, that made me realize like in my relationship with Vicky, she's like, I don't want to know about money. i don't want to talk about money. I don't know.
01:11:28
EDHD
Hmm.
01:11:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
want and I don't want to know where it is.
01:11:29
EDHD
Hmm.
01:11:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i don't know how, want to know how much there is. You do, you do the the numbers and I'm mama's going to go shopping.
01:11:36
Jack Thomas
Yep.
01:11:38
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:11:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that's she says
01:11:38
EDHD
Hmm. but
01:11:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like I tried to tell her about our finances.
01:11:40
Jack Thomas
Yep.
01:11:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I try to like, this account has this or this account.
01:11:45
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:11:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
is She doesn't care. I don't want to know.
01:11:49
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:11:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Just handle it. But that worries me. Cause like, what if I die? Right. Like who's going to take care?
01:11:54
Jack Thomas
She'll figure it out. think you'll figure it out.
01:11:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:11:55
EDHD
yeah
01:11:56
Jack Thomas
She'll figure it out.
01:11:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, she, had she had it figured out before me, but like, I try, like I corner her like often. This is hilarious. It's in the bathtub. Like, cause she can't get out. Right. Like she's, she's like stuck there.
01:12:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm like, listen, now's the time that you have to listen about the fucking numbers. It's time to talk a little bit of money.
01:12:12
EDHD
i'm I'm genuinely surprised you can fit two people in your bathroom.
01:12:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You write it all down.
01:12:15
Jack Thomas
same dude same yeah yeah
01:12:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
well
01:12:16
EDHD
but
01:12:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Not only that, but it's a nice view, but sorry. what Well, I wanted to take this to segue. i'm not sure where that was going, but like, and um, no, to segue to like, what can help.
01:12:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um, cause what you guys are talking about are strategies that you sort of organically developed in the relationships that you have. And that's so great. But what a lot of people can experience is things going south or sideways. Cause like if the manager,
01:12:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
in the brain is a little underperforming, sometimes people around you start overperforming and it could work like you're describing, or it could go really sideways.
01:12:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So like ask any parent who has a child with ADHD, yeah they're chasing them around and, you know, um or sometimes a spouse with ADHD, like may not have the capacity to
01:12:59
Jack Thomas
Hmm. Hmm.
01:13:03
EDHD
Oh, I was a nightmare of a son.
01:13:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
over-performed make up for it. and so But like in terms of what can help, and I'll be curious of Jack's experience with this, is when you get diagnosed, like if you really think that you may have it and maybe you do the screener, and um to get diagnosed, to like fully understand your color palette of ADHD so that you understand yourself and, oh, I do that.
01:13:30
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:13:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And now it totally makes sense why I'm doing that. And so that you can tell people around you so that they don't misinterpret your behavior as being rude or being thoughtless, or you're not paying attention to me because you don't care, which means you don't love me. Why don't you love me? like So your behavior can be misinterpreted if it's viewed through that person's brain lens but then once you communicate to them hey if i interrupt you on your zoom in front of 60 scientists like what's in the box that's an oopsie daisy like so sorry i'm sorry that's my adhd brain like and then paul will understand and not be like what the fuck is wrong with you um so that's why i think diagnosis is important so that you can sort of
01:14:06
EDHD
Mmm. ah
01:14:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
put people, the people you have relationships with, you can give them context to your behavior. So that, cause the thing about ADHD is sort of like an invisible thing, right? Like if you had a friend, let's say who was blind and you know that they're blind, you can tell by looking at them, or maybe they have like a ah seeing eye stick or something like sort of assistance and they bump into you.
01:14:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You don't think anything up there. Like, Oh, he bumped into me. Like, Oh, you can't see very well. Like, But if you have ADHD, it's invisible and you do something that's kind of, you know, bumping into someone, but in a different kind of way, um they may be like, what, why did you do that? So that I think that that's why diagnosis and is so important. And Jack, I was, i wanted to ask you what changed for you, if anything, when you got that diagnosis in terms of understanding yourself and how you communicated to other people around you?
01:15:17
Jack Thomas
That's a great question. And i I think that it's possible I might be the wrong person to ask about this for for two reasons. One, when you you know when you grow up socially conditioned as a female person, at least in the United States, in Western society, like you're kind of taught that your job is to be a nurturer and to put your own comfort ah below everyone else's mere convenience.
01:15:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:15:41
Jack Thomas
And so getting diagnosed with ADHD actually didn't change for me how I interacted with the world because it's my problem. Right. It's like, no, I've just been taught nobody's here to accommodate you.
01:15:48
EDHD
Mm-hmm.
01:15:51
Jack Thomas
You actually are here to like subserve to the comfort of other people. Right. And so like basically fucking get over it and and and deal with it. And it being an invisible disability. is contributes to that, right?
01:16:03
Jack Thomas
It's like, you know, people almost think it's fake or that it's like an excuse sometimes, which is which is wild to me.
01:16:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:16:09
Jack Thomas
Like if you could be inside this brain, dog, you'd know it ain't fake. You know, but you know um and and especially especially if you're a people pleaser and an over performer, which I think is so common of women with ADHD, you know, there's this expectation that you just kind of keep your shit together and like ride with it, right?
01:16:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah a
01:16:27
Jack Thomas
You just you just deal with it. However, i will say what did change for me was hating myself less. And now, eight years later, not at all.
01:16:39
Jack Thomas
Because it gave me this lens through which to understand my own metacognition. To be able to say, oh, this is why I see the world this way. This is why I interact with the world this way. This is why I am this way. It's not an excuse.
01:16:54
Jack Thomas
I'm not using it as an excuse for myself or to anyone else internally or externally. But for me, there definitely was, um this might sound kind of weird, but there was like a grieving period where, you know, I went i went to one of the top 50 schools in the in the country on a full merit-based scholarship, which is wild for somebody with ADHD um and and someone with with autism.
01:17:19
Jack Thomas
i couldn't I can't help but think to myself, if I had been diagnosed earlier, with ADHD, what kind of metacognitive abilities would I have about it?
01:17:31
Jack Thomas
What kind of social and medical supports would I have gotten? Like, I feel like I could probably be like, fucking, i don't know, first chair cello at the Boston Philharmonic, and also a doctor, and also, you know, showing in museums around the world or something. If I had just known,
01:17:49
Jack Thomas
if I had just known, you know, because like when you're younger, at least at our school, they like, you know, shitty shitty public school and in in a rural county, they test you for all kinds of different things, but only if you're displaying the symptoms that little boys display when it comes to ADHD and autism, right?
01:18:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
01:18:09
Jack Thomas
And nobody else gets any support. If I had just known, then I would have had less self-loathing, more social and medical support, and an ability to say, oh, here's what might actually work for me where I can carve my own lane earlier. Because carving your lane as early as possible when a lane doesn't already exist for you is the only way to get to that place of like low friction and high success, I think, as a person who is neurodivergent.
01:18:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's absolutely fantastic advice. That was like a TED Talk, dude. It was great.
01:18:43
Jack Thomas
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
01:18:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That was really fabulous.
01:18:45
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:18:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Sherry, like you're even, Jack, that was unbelievable. And Sherry, your point before that about people mistaking it for you're rude, you don't love me, you're not paying attention, like this sort of misinterpretation, which is why diagnosis is important. In fact, and this is why I love this podcast.
01:19:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I really love doing it because it makes me think so hard about so many different things. Like I did in the middle of the day today before um any of this, i my wife walked down the stairs and I was like, I want to apologize to you.
01:19:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because I have gotten upset or frustrated or insult. I felt insulted when you like walk away mid-sentence and I'm saying something. Or you can't fucking sit down and listen. to You have to walk around and I have to like follow you trying to like talk at you. And I get so angry or like I'm talking and you're like, oh, what was that? A squirrel, you know?
01:19:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I get so pissed off. I've gotten so like, and I'm like, do you... And it's really a misinterpretation on my part. And it's like, it's her brain doing it to her. It's not because she doesn't love me. It's not because she didn't want to hear what I had to say. It's not because she's rude. it's not because It's like, it wasn't even up to her in some ways. And I was like, I want to apologize for my, I guess, not understanding enough about the way your brain works.
01:20:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm sorry if I've been harsh about it. And that's my, my and I feel like I've learned a ton through this and I, you know, and I will definitely see it through a different lens going forward. I think that's exactly what we kind of hope for in a relationship where there is ADHD in it is that understanding so that those so sorts of, you know, little micro conflicts don't end up leading to resentments that destroy the relationship.
01:20:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that, And actually like the divorce rate among people with ADHD is much higher. is it really?
01:20:58
Jack Thomas
Hey, right right here, man. Right here.
01:20:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:20:59
Jack Thomas
Absolutely.
01:21:00
EDHD
Fucking preach.
01:21:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because, because of these misunderstandings that lead to resentment.
01:21:01
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Yeah.
01:21:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And um so that's why I really feel like it's so important to like know yourself and then other people can know you. because you will be able to explain yourself.
01:21:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm sure because here's the other thing is like people with ADHD tend to have and I'm curious from you guys, um a long history of people kind of like hitting you over the head for things that you've done and That over time can kind of be traumatizing, especially some people feel quite traumatized by I'm getting yelled at all the time. Everything I do is wrong. I'm failing at everything.
01:21:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I want to avoid that. I want to avoid those people. And it creates bad experiences. And so like to the extent that we can encourage people to... Yeah.
01:21:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like I love how it gave you like the biggest thing and that diagnosis changed for you was like, except how you saw yourself. yourself
01:22:00
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:22:00
EDHD
Yeah.
01:22:01
Jack Thomas
Well, and I think i think also, and correct me if I'm wrong, Sherry, I've read about this high preponderance of comorbidity with um RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria, with people with ADHD, which is really hard for creative people with ADHD, because it's like, when you're an artist, when you're a craftsperson, and you know that I don't care about the distinction between those things, frankly,
01:22:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, there is.
01:22:25
Jack Thomas
like what you make, it's not just something you make, it's who you are. Like your, your ideas, your whole sense of self-worth is wrapped up in what you make. And when some, when somebody says it sucks and you have rejection sensitive dysphoria, they're not rejecting the work.
01:22:33
EDHD
so
01:22:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a You suck.
01:22:39
Jack Thomas
they're They're rejecting you.
01:22:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
is Yeah.
01:22:40
Jack Thomas
Exactly. And if, yeah, dog,
01:22:41
EDHD
God, the hardest thing I ever had to learn in my journey as a creative person was that I am not my work.
01:22:48
Jack Thomas
Yeah, I'm still working on that one, man.
01:22:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:22:52
Jack Thomas
Because you you are, though, like, two in a, you know, like, like yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:22:54
EDHD
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know um who I've never felt rejected by is William Teresa Burkle. um
01:23:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
01:23:06
Jack Thomas
Willie TB.
01:23:06
EDHD
Our lord our ah Lord and Savior. Praise be. Cherry, let me ask you a question. um How do you feel about ah slabs?
01:23:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Love them.
01:23:18
EDHD
Love them. How do you feel about getting 50% off slabs?
01:23:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and That is like run don't walk. Like, where is this at?
01:23:24
EDHD
like That's like twice as good as like normal price, right?
01:23:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
50% better. That's how she feels. fifty percent better that's how she feels
01:23:29
EDHD
50% better. Let me ask, let me ask Jack, Sherry, let me ask you guys a question.
01:23:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:23:33
EDHD
um What are your what are your thoughts on LaMelo?
01:23:37
Jack Thomas
it's it's like my favorite flavor of ice cream
01:23:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, it's...
01:23:40
EDHD
see sure sure sure sure i love an italian lamello uh oh god fucking hate it when the lamello gets stuck in your teeth that's my dentist would really hate that uh but but the good news is on friday april 17th which this podcast will certainly come out before that i think
01:23:44
Jack Thomas
yeah
01:23:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It gets stuck in my teeth. That's the only thing. like and i'm like
01:23:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It does.
01:24:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
this This podcast comes out next week.
01:24:04
EDHD
Amazing. So definitely, definitely before April 17th from 10 a.m. m to 1 p.m., there's a LaMelo demo day. So if you want to learn how to apparently get LaMelo out of your teeth, you can head to WTV Woodworking at 390 Pike Road in Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania, and just tell tell Bill we sent ya you. know Tell him you learned about neuro spiciness and neurodiversity and you wanted to see what his neurodiversity was all about.
01:24:30
Jack Thomas
Well, Eric, eric i'm going I'm actually going to write this down.
01:24:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We should have had- Bring the screener.
01:24:33
Jack Thomas
going to put this in my calendar right now because if it's not in the calendar, it doesn't exist.
01:24:38
EDHD
That's 1,000% accurate.
01:24:38
Jack Thomas
So I'm just going to put this down right now.
01:24:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ah, fair. That is an excellent executive functioning strategy.
01:24:40
Jack Thomas
Yes.
01:24:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We should have William Teresa Burkle take the screener for ADHD. Let's put him to the test. Let's add him to the mix.
01:24:49
EDHD
ah one hundred percent one hundred percent we're gonna do that
01:24:50
EDHD
100%.
01:24:51
EDHD
100%.
01:24:51
EDHD
We're going to do that.
01:24:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i'm not suggesting what I'm not suggesting he did or didn't. I'm just saying, like let's get more people into this.
01:24:56
Jack Thomas
Everybody.
01:24:57
EDHD
I'd be genuinely curious. I don't know.
01:24:58
Jack Thomas
Oh,
01:24:59
EDHD
i'm not sure where he would land on it.
01:25:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Maybe what we'll do, Eric, is if we get enough people who take the screener and want to share their score, we could do it as a short segment next episode or something.
01:25:10
EDHD
Okay.
01:25:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That would be.
01:25:11
EDHD
Okay.
01:25:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That would could be interesting.
01:25:12
EDHD
All right.
01:25:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
we We won't have to name names or we could like use aliases if people are uncomfortable or if you want to use your name. Hey, fucking use your name. I don't care. We all shared ours.
01:25:20
Jack Thomas
I want to know, I want to know what percentage of of the Woodworking is Bullshit Patreon community ADHD.
01:25:24
EDHD
Of our listeners do. All right. Well, I will say this. I'm going to say one more thing. um If you are interested in finding out if you have ADHD and we can talk about that and grade them and and talk about it like a Patreon after show situation, you'll also probably be interested in the bits and bits giveaway that ah Bill's doing over at WTB.
01:25:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let's do that.
01:25:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:25:46
EDHD
So $1,000 gift card for bits and bits.
01:25:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Huh.
01:25:49
EDHD
um The entries will go until midnight on May 22nd. And the big reveal will be on Instagram live at WTB Woodworking on May 23rd at 10 a.m.
01:25:56
Jack Thomas
Bits and beds.
01:26:02
EDHD
Eastern Standard Time. So WTB woodworking dot com slash giveaway to enter. And, you know, again, do that and then immediately go and take this test and send it to Paul because I won't remember to check the email.
01:26:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He can't be bothered, y'all.
01:26:17
EDHD
And I can't.
01:26:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, wait. I want to end on, like, I want to wrap up the show because we share, you have like, ah we have some structure here. The last part, which I think is really interesting, is like, what do we do
01:26:29
EDHD
That feels like a personal shot, but carry on.
01:26:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
what ah what do we do?
01:26:32
EDHD
have
01:26:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, where do we go from here?
01:26:35
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:26:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What are some coping strategies? Jack, you referred to some, Eric, you've definitely talked about some, Sherry. What does the literature or, you know, as a PhD psychologist, like what, what does the field professionally suggest about what can we do to help?
01:26:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So treatments for our ADHD, we talked about medication a little bit ago. There's also executive function coaching that you can get for, and what,
01:27:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it happens in executive function coaching is they're basically sort of training your manager, giving them strategies ah to help you manage whatever sort of deficits you're experiencing. So because they're not coming natural, these managers,
01:27:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
types of strategies, you you can learn them and there's an effort there, but that can be super, super valuable for people. um Or like a therapist who has specialty in ADHD.
01:27:25
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
01:27:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, it's basically the same thing. They're kind of doing coaching of the strategies that help people with time management, goal setting, following through. One thing we didn't really talk about was time blindness.
01:27:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that like the inability to sort of like track time and getting lost. Wait, wait, why did both of you just, just time blind?
01:27:45
EDHD
um percent
01:27:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Tell me. Tell me.
01:27:47
EDHD
1000%. Well, you you start a thing and you're like, it's 11 AM. Great. I have a meeting at 1. And then you look up and you're like, fuck, it's 1259. Oh my Christ.
01:27:57
Jack Thomas
Yep.
01:27:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
01:27:57
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:27:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:27:58
Jack Thomas
That, that, and also like, I'm like, oh, well, I've done this thing before. This thing's only going to take an hour. I know it's only going to take an hour.
01:28:04
EDHD
o my christ
01:28:05
Jack Thomas
And then like three hours later, you're like, what the fuck?
01:28:08
EDHD
every Every single thing I do, I'm like, yeah, that'll take two days.
01:28:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:28:10
Jack Thomas
Every time.
01:28:12
EDHD
And then three weeks later, I'm like, how did I get that that wrong again?
01:28:14
Jack Thomas
Yep. Yep. Especially when, like, my self-esteem is not that high, you guys.
01:28:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:28:19
Jack Thomas
Like, I know.
01:28:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
not
01:28:22
Jack Thomas
I know I'm not that good at this. I should not be overestimating how well I can do this.
01:28:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So there's strategies to kind of like help manage that, but that's a very real experience to people with ADHD. Another thing, and I'm a big fan of this as a health psychologist, is exercise is important for both things we talk about.
01:28:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it gives your brain a little more dopamine. It creates dopamine acutely. So like if you were to go out and do a brisk walk or a run, ride your bike, you get dopamine hit from that.
01:28:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It also helps with executive function. So it's good for prefrontal cortex too. So it's kind of like giving you a little dampening.
01:29:01
Jack Thomas
Hmm. Hmm.
01:29:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So if you did have some really concentrated, like more boring work or like goals you wanted to do that you're worried about getting distracted, exercising beforehand is going to give you like a little like two, three hour ramp of more executive function.
01:29:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So exercise. And if you exercise regularly, like 30 minutes or so a day, it's just start actually changing your brain towards having the higher dopamine levels available and that sort of thing.
01:29:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So like, I i can't, emphasize it enough as a tool and you want to have exercise enough to where it's at least of moderate intensity. So this is where you could talk but not sing. Your heart is at your kind of target heart rate, that sort of thing. So if you're just going for kind of like a, you know, a slow walk or something like that, might not have the same effect, but exercise is super important and and a really great strategy for calming your brain down. So I want to ask Sherry. Yeah.
01:30:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sherry, what is your exercise routine yourself? I run every single day. how, how, how how much? Um, an average one would be six miles.
01:30:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's the only reason I'm sitting still right now. I'm six miles in, but I, I don't, I mean, I i don't have ADHD.
01:30:22
Jack Thomas
Oh my God.
01:30:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, but I just, like I will say, i want the audience to know, like you're, you're not just saying some bullshit that you don't, but I, I,
01:30:32
EDHD
if somebody If somebody said I will give you a choice between running six miles or letting me kick you in the nuts right now, I would take the latter.
01:30:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, you obviously don't want to dive into that.
01:30:41
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:30:43
EDHD
ah
01:30:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, I didn't start at six. I started at one. But I will say um the reason why I run is 100% because of the effect it has on my brain.
01:30:53
EDHD
Sure.
01:30:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um Like it brings me a level of calm and focus that I cannot achieve with other activities.
01:31:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um And so like people like, oh, you know, it's so great that you run and did this and that and this and that and And I'm like, how do you not run? Because like if I didn't have this, I feel like I'd be like a little unhinged or a little more unhinged.
01:31:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know.
01:31:20
EDHD
1000% when people are like, how do you make time to like work out?
01:31:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
01:31:24
EDHD
I'm like, I if because if I didn't, I would die. Like I just wouldn't be able to function and whatever that workout it maybe it's going to the gym.
01:31:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's how, yeah. Hmm.
01:31:31
EDHD
Now with Teddy, the last few months has been like, we're going to go for an hour long hike, you know, we're going go out into the woods, and we're going fucking hustle through the woods for an hour. But it's just something because if I don't do that, even though I work in a physical environment for the next eight to 12 hours, it's like I'm i'm not going function.
01:31:47
EDHD
It's just not going to happen.
01:31:48
Jack Thomas
So this is actually very important new information for me because like I've been wondering, okay, so like we we farm, you know and so I'm like, why is it that when like from the spring through the end of the summer growing season, and then also in the winter when I have to shovel four feet of snow, you know ah not on the daily, but often, like I have less time to do intellectual work because I'm actively farming or I'm shoveling snow but I get more done.
01:32:15
EDHD
but you get more done. Yup. Yup.
01:32:18
Jack Thomas
That makes so much more sense.
01:32:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yeah.
01:32:19
Jack Thomas
Okay. Okay, Sherry. Thank you. Thank you.
01:32:21
EDHD
ah
01:32:22
Jack Thomas
All right.
01:32:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So if you can get that into each day, it does ah wonders for your brain. so can i Can I make one more point? and this I mentioned this to Sherry earlier. is like We're talking about this as sort of um what you can do, right? like Let's say your ADHD brain, you know to to help with it. I feel like these strategies, of like whether it's meditation and mindfulness or meditation,
01:32:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
exercise. This is good for every fucking brain.
01:32:50
EDHD
Mm-hmm.
01:32:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All of us have noise.
01:32:51
EDHD
Mm.
01:32:51
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:32:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like it's a scale, like everything's a continuum, right? You might be higher on the edge of the continuum than the next person, but exercise and mindfulness and like, it helps all of us.
01:33:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This isn't just limited to the ADHD brain. I feel amazing after exercise. Well, and same with executive functioning strategies. Like we could all actually work on our time management.
01:33:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We could all work ah and actually like on Trevor Noah's podcast where he talks about ADHD. One thing he says is like everything that would be helpful for people with ADHD would be helpful for everyone.
01:33:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
01:33:25
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
01:33:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So if we could make the world more accommodating for ADHD, it would be more accommodating for everyone because we would all use those things.
01:33:26
Jack Thomas
yeah.
01:33:34
EDHD
Well, I will say i like one of the things that I have learned, like one of the ways I've learned to live with myself, and I hope this doesn't come off as derogatory because I don't mean it to be because I apply it to myself, is that the old adage of like a tired dog is a good dog.
01:33:51
EDHD
I'm the dog, right? like That's all there is to it. Like I could Tucker myself out like I am capable of doing normal things.
01:33:59
Jack Thomas
That is awesome.
01:34:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I resonate with that too, actually. All right, y'all.
01:34:02
Jack Thomas
And I tell people this as a learning designer all the time. you know i'm like I'm like, dog, like if you anything that you do that will work for a neuro-spicy brain, it's going to work so much better for like regular brains.
01:34:14
Jack Thomas
Don't make a 12-minute long instructional video. Make a six-minute long instructional video.
01:34:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:34:19
Jack Thomas
Everybody is going to love it. i think I think you guys totally hit the nail on the head. If the world works for people who are neurodivergent, neuro-spicy, it's going to work so much better for all of us.
01:34:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, y'all. Well, I hope we did justice to this very complicated topic. We've tried to attack it from blood. Eric, don't fucking smile at me.
01:34:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love it.
01:34:39
EDHD
I think it was a good app.
01:34:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I do too.
01:34:42
EDHD
ah
01:34:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I do too. Because it's tough. you You have to introduce it. You have to put it in terms everyone can understand. We like to understand the neurochemistry of the brain. Thank you, Sherry, so much for the preparation and your expertise.
01:34:53
EDHD
Yeah.
01:34:53
Jack Thomas
Oh my god, thank you, Sherry.
01:34:54
EDHD
Thank you.
01:34:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, the one thing that I hope people go away with is... So there's a form of empathy that I think is the most challenging. And it's um appreciating when somebody has an can't do something naturally that you can do naturally and having compassion for that rather than frustration.
01:35:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so if there's any way that we like move that needle a little bit for people to like have some compassion and understand like not all brains work the same, then I feel like that's a victory, i hope.
01:35:18
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:35:29
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:35:29
EDHD
What's in the box?
01:35:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're going to, we're going to, Sherry, that was such a brilliant point. We're going to end it on that. Y'all hope you enjoyed this episode. Hope it's helpful. And we will see you in the after show.
01:35:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I will put the screener in the liner notes of today's show.
01:35:45
EDHD
Hell yeah.
01:35:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If you'd like to take it. And ah for those who want to join us in the after show, just visit our patron. We'll see you there. Thanks again, Sherry. Thanks again, Jack.
01:35:55
EDHD
Thanks both of you guys. Appreciate you.
01:35:57
Jack Thomas
Thank you guys so much.
01:35:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We'll see in the after show y'all.
01:35:59
EDHD
Thanks friends.
01:36:00
Jack Thomas
Bye.
01:36:00
EDHD
Bye.
01:36:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye. Thanks.