Transcript
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Are you the type of person who enjoys or seeks out novelty? Do you like everything to be new, new experiences, making new things, let's say in your wood shop or whatever shop you have?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Or are you the kind of person who finds rhythm, a comfortable rhythm in repeated tasks like production? Today, on this episode of We're Working as Bullshit, we are going to tear apart this issue as we have people on both sides of the coin.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, it's a morning episode. Greetings and salutations, everyone. It is 10 a.m. where we are, and we are not drinking. This is going to be a sober one.
The Chaos Agent: Wait, we're not?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, we're drinking water.
The Chaos Agent: ah son of a bitch.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: This is Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite podcast about creativity, art, design, the philosophy, and the thinking behind what we do, not how we do. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, copper pig woodworking scientist by day, woodworker by night,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I have my boy, of course, Eric Curtis in the chair, fine furniture maker and content creator.
The Chaos Agent: What's up, fuckers?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That is not okay.
The Chaos Agent: ah Sorry, sorry. that I came in a little hot there. I got excited.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's not okay for a morning episode. And we have a special guest today, someone who I've been friends with on Instagram for quite some time, an absolute joy of a human and an exceptional person.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: professional woodturner, Richard Finley. Hi, Richard. Thank you for joining us.
Richard Findley: Good morning. How are you doing?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Now, Richard, it's amazing that you agreed to be on this show because I have a long history of insulting
The Chaos Agent: ah Of shitting on turners. Yeah.
Richard Findley: Well, that was the first thing I wanted to bring up, actually, this this sort of ongoing theme of of of sort of picking on woodturners.
The Chaos Agent: It's one of.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Let's let's flip the script here. huh.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Let's turn this into a Paul interview.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I...
The Chaos Agent: What's your beef dog? Why do you clown on turners all the time?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, it actually relates to today's episode. So ah as I said in the intro, today's episode is about repeated you know routine tasks versus novelty seeking.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And ah I have shit on woodturners for a long time because... all right, let me start.
The Chaos Agent: Because Paul's Peapaw was a woodturner and he used to beat him with a hose.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: In
The Chaos Agent: And so he he hates woodturners now.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and my...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Incorrect. My peepaw was not a woodturner and he did not beat me with a hose. um Well, I just always found it off-putting how large of a field woodworking is, right? There's so much to explore in this field.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And yet I always felt as though, oh my God, Rich, you're going to absolutely crucify me today. That you know woodturners just... kind of stuck themselves in this little box, in this little place in the universe.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I kept always thinking to myself, there's so much more to explore. Now, this is just, this is not about the business side, right? This is Mr. Elitist Hobbyist, me, from my stupid little hobbyist ivory tower baby.
The Chaos Agent: of
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ooh, why don't you explore this and explore that, right? So I'm going to call myself out, right? This is the perspective of privilege speaking.
The Chaos Agent: I'm gonna pick on you real quick, Paul.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Please.
The Chaos Agent: When's the last time you made something that wasn't a fucking box?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i mean
The Chaos Agent: ah ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I made chopsticks.
The Chaos Agent: There's so much more. There's so much more to woodworking.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bitch, I turn sometimes.
The Chaos Agent: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I've turned this year. i turned two lidded vessels this year. So get out of here.
The Chaos Agent: so ah So a box, a round box.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh You're such a bitch.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're such bitch. Okay. So, all right. So that we we'll come back and Rich, you could take me down along the way in the episode. I do love woodturning. I just always found that woodturners like really polarized strongly.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like I'm a turner and that's all I do or not. That's all I do, but that's what I do.
Richard Findley: Yeah, it's definitely a specialism, isn't it? Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It seems like it, but back to today's back to today's episode. So let's take let's take stock of where each of us falls before we get into it. So each of you, are you a novelty seeker or do you find you gravitate more towards routine and repetition?
Richard Findley: So i'm I'm a production turner. My my work is woodturning. And the weird thing that people don't would be surprised to hear probably is that the thing I most enjoy about my work as a woodturner is the variety.
The Chaos Agent: Mmm.
Richard Findley: So what you're saying is, you know, all all you ever do is woodturning. But for me, you know, a production job, I might make it. So last week, I finished off a batch of 48 table legs, okay?
Richard Findley: That was the biggest job. Good pay for it. Brilliant. Fantastic. Collected this morning. Job done. This week i want something else. you know So I'm only ever stuck on one job for a week. Maybe yeah two weeks if it's a really big job. you know So actually the thing I enjoy most is the variety. So with my work, yeah, I'm a production turner. I also do demos.
Richard Findley: I do a little bit of teaching here and there. I write articles. I do all sorts of different things in the sphere of woodturning. So I've i've heard, so obviously what you're you're sort of getting at, your beef, as it were, is bowl turners.
Richard Findley: um and i sit And I can see what you're saying. So I understand your angle. um And yeah, if I was just turning bowl after bowl after bowl after bowl, it would indeed turn me crazy.
Richard Findley: You know, it it would be, you know, drive you insane, wouldn't it But like I say, for me, I'm on the same job for a week, two weeks.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Richard Findley: And then I'm on. And yes, it's all turning or in the turning, you know, area. But there is a lot of variety, I find, really.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So Rich, when you, we're going to come back to that variety, cause I have a host of questions, but can you tell me how does one become, how did you stumble into this as a profession or not stumble?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't mean to make it sound, uh, by chance, but ah how how did this happen for you?
Richard Findley: No, I think stumble is probably the right word, to be honest. It is.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Tell me a bit about your background.
Richard Findley: um It depends how far back you want to go really. um So I did some um family tree stuff a while ago. is that horology? um And I found that all the Findlay men going back as far as I could go using the census were all cabinet makers, chair makers, you know, everything.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wow.
Richard Findley: And the the furthest back I could go, yeah I think it's just in my blood, I think.
The Chaos Agent: So it's in your DNA, man.
Richard Findley: Yeah, but so the the the furthest back I could go was a guy born in the late 1700s.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Man.
Richard Findley: cabinetmaker in London, you know, so I think I was sort of destined to do it.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: um My grandpa started a business after the war. He was a trained cabinet maker. But after the war, there was no money in in the UK was basically bankrupt on its knees. You know, there was just no money for people to go out buying bespoke furniture. So he had to find a a way of making a ah living. So him and his business partner, again, I don't know the exact story, but basically they came upon the need for curtain tracks.
Richard Findley: that fitted kind of round bay windows and and things like that. And there was ah something that was made at the time, but it wasn't very good. And they basically sort of took the idea and developed it and built on it and and came up with this product. And that business sort of fed my family for the last sort of 50 odd years.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: And so i um I left school at 16 and sort of I was always going to join the family business. And so I went into the into the family business, which was making wooden curtain tracks.
Richard Findley: So I needed joinery skills, machinery skills, that sort of thing. um And initially, actually, i'd I'd never really done any woodwork at school or anything. Obviously, whenever Dad was doing jobs around the house, I was...
Richard Findley: nail put hammer nails into bits of wood and stuff like that the same thing you know we always kids always do um but like said never did woodwork at school or anything like that and when i sort joined the business i think the idea was that i i needed to experience every area of the business so initially the first year i i did a like a business administration course to to sort of help with understanding you know how a business works really you know um Then the next stage was to go to college and do ah a woodworking course.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: So I did a bench joinery course. um When I say college, and this always confuses me because you guys refer to college just differently to what we do.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: I think college for you guys is like university. Would that be right?
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Yep.
Richard Findley: So we call university university. College is like a different further.
The Chaos Agent: Like a VoTech school.
Richard Findley: aca I think you'd probably call it trade school.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: Probably I would i would think.
The Chaos Agent: VoTech. Yeah. Vocational technology. Yeah.
Richard Findley: Exactly that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I went and did a bench joinery course, um and I sort of found I was good at it. and like at the end of the first year, I got a prize as being like best in class kind of thing.
The Chaos Agent: Oh, nice.
Richard Findley: you know um i Maybe, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: in the jeans. Hmm.
The Chaos Agent: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Richard Findley: and And I say initially, I wasn't even in the workshop at at the business, um but there came a point where I said to Dad, like, maybe I need to be in the workshop and you you're running the business.
Richard Findley: So you maybe you should be like customer facing and do the admin. oh I think it was like a siren call from the loud machines and the dust and the wood. And like, I want to be back there with all the how the woodwork stuff.
The Chaos Agent: Mm-hmm.
Richard Findley: um And so I got really sort of deep into doing the woodwork um course.
The Chaos Agent: Can I ask you a question, Rich? How how big is the company at this point?
Richard Findley: um employed about six people, something like that.
The Chaos Agent: Okay, okay.
Richard Findley: So it was a smallish family business. I mean, bigger than what I've got now, but, you know.
The Chaos Agent: So like, yeah, couple of folks in the office doing the business end of things, a few folks out on the floor.
Richard Findley: Yeah, yeah. And all family, really. So my mum used to do of the paperwork.
The Chaos Agent: Okay. Okay.
Richard Findley: Dad, me, my brother used to actually fit the tracks in people's houses.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: um And there's a couple of the guys who were in the sort of production areas, sort assembling and stuff like that, you know.
The Chaos Agent: Okay, so it's all, yeah, family, friends kind of thing. out So it's no it's no big like upset of the family hierarchy for you to be like, I want to go build shit.
Richard Findley: Is that it? No, no, no, no, no.
The Chaos Agent: Fuck this business nonsense.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Oh,
Richard Findley: So, the I mean, the thing is, um i we used have quite a very traditional sort of family business, and we used to close for an hour and a half at dinner time. Everyone used to go home. We used to home for dinner and come back.
The Chaos Agent: yeah. Nice. Nice.
Richard Findley: And obviously, when I lived at home, I used to just go home with Dad. We used to have dinner, come back to the workshop, carry on.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm-hmm.
Richard Findley: When I moved in with my now wife, she was at work. There was no point in me going home, so I just stayed in the workshop.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: But instead of carrying on doing... Dad's work. I started messing around with my own stuff, knocking bits of MDF together, you know making things I needed for for home, that sort of thing.
Richard Findley: And that kind of developed a little bit into more of an interest in actually making this sort of furniture stuff is a bit more interesting than making curtain tracks. yeah
The Chaos Agent: oh
Richard Findley: um And then I found a set of carving tools that were my grandpa's because he was he was a fine furniture maker. So he was doing things with cabriol legs and things like that before the war.
Richard Findley: And so I started doing a bit of carving and I really enjoyed that. and I was I was quite good at it, but I found in how hour and a half chunks, it took me so long to actually make anything.
The Chaos Agent: Nice. Mm.
Richard Findley: It kind of put me off a little bit, you know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Findley: So ah one Christmas, we used deep clean every Christmas. And one Christmas, I found this pile of like cast iron bits under the bench. and i was like, Dad, what's what's this? so It's an old lathe.
Richard Findley: It was like a treadle lathe. And at one point in one of the old factories, we had it ah hooked up to a motor and we used to turn some little bit, but never really did any turning. But occasionally there'd thing that needed to be round, you know.
Richard Findley: And was like, well, we've finished clearing up. Shall we stick it on the wall somewhere? So we assembled this pile of old cast iron bits. And it was, mean, it was a proper antique thing.
Richard Findley: And this motor had one speed. It was either going hell for leather or it wasn't going at all. um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bye.
Richard Findley: And i I sort of fashioned a couple of tools, which now know to be scrapers, I suppose, blunt scrapers. They were out of old bevel-aged chisels and sort of ground them into a round-ended thing.
Richard Findley: And I was sticking them into the wood. And I think from that moment, I was like, I was hooked. And before long, I'd bought another lathe, you know, a proper lathe that had some speeds and, you know, actually looked like a lathe.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: And I just did more and more and more. And... obviously the same as anyone else who gets hooked on woodturning, it's like, well, I've done all the things my house needs. Everyone I knew was writing with a wooden pen and had a wooden bowl of wooden fruit and various other wooden things. They didn't ask for a want or need, but they'd got them anyway. you know because of the family business, a lot of our customers were interior designers and things like that.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: So I put a table in my dad's showroom and I sold a few bits through that. And that was quite nice. It was nice when someone's going to give you their hard-earned money for something you've made. That's always very satisfying, isn't it? And then...
Richard Findley: time It was a sort of time when I got the internet at home, so we're looking at about 2006, something like that. yeah Getting the internet at home is like, whoa!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm-hmm.
Richard Findley: If you've got younger listeners, that's going to blow their minds. What, you didn't have the internet?
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, we didn't have it.
Richard Findley: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Dial up speeds, everything.
Richard Findley: used to scream down the phone at you, yeah. So I did a website, basically. taught myself to make a website. I built a website. And
Richard Findley: the turning point really was one particular job. A guy came into the shop and he said, you do a bit of woodtelling, don't you? He says, could you make me one of these? And it was a thing off of a spinning wheel, you know, spinning wool.
The Chaos Agent: Mm, okay.
Richard Findley: So there's lots of different styles of those and there's all sorts of different bits. And over the years, I've turned... I've probably turned an entire one, but never all for the same wheel. So I've turned spares for different people. And this guy came in with this... It was a stick with a bulge on the end, essentially.
Richard Findley: And was like, I need another one of these. Could you make one? like, yeah. So I made this thing and it was like the penny dropped. was like, actually, people... have things they want making and they're going to pay for that?
Richard Findley: That's good. Because I'd got to the stage where I'd, and obviously was, don't even do it a couple of years, so I hadn't made everything. But that you can get to a point where you feel like you've made everything.
Richard Findley: I've made bowls, I've made boxes. What am going now? You know, sort of run out of ideas a little bit.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: So this fact that this guy wanted me to make something, it was like, oh, well, actually, I don't have to make things and then try and sell them. I can just offer the services of a woodturner and people will maybe come to me.
Richard Findley: I don't know. So that was the idea that I had when I set up the website. I didn't actually put products on for sale. It was just these are things I've made. If you need something making,
Richard Findley: come to me, you know, and that seemed to work. I got a couple of regular customers from that and I was doing sort of in my spare time, I was making stuff for customers and I basically set it up as a little, I think it was before the the time that you'd you'd call it a side hustle.
Richard Findley: I think that's probably ah a newer term, but that's essentially what it was, I think, you know.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah,
Richard Findley: um And so I was doing little bits and bobs and it it got to the stage where dad wanted to retire and I could either take on the family business or have a guard my own thing. And it was ah it was a big decision. um But I was i was like really hooked on woodturning.
The Chaos Agent: yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: And Dad had a chat with me. He said, don't get too emotional about the business. know your grandpa set it up and all the rest of it, but he didn't want to make curtain tracks all his life. He wanted to be a cabinetmaker, and he sort of had to do this.
The Chaos Agent: Mmm.
Richard Findley: So although there's a lot of nostalgia and family, he understood that actually, It's not the most exciting business. Like I say, it fed us for the last 50-odd, 60-odd years.
Richard Findley: But it wasn't that exciting. It was quite...
The Chaos Agent: that's ah That's a top tier dad move though.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: You know, to be able to be like, listen, your grandpa, my father started this.
Richard Findley: Yeah. Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: I've done this my entire life. But don't like, if you want to do something else that's going to make you happy in life, fucking go do that. That's top tier dad in right there, man.
Richard Findley: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. rich Rich, can I just for a moment reflect on the fact what a great family you have. Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like, what a great dad. And what what a legacy you come from. what and And you all work together. and yeah I mean, I'm sure there were like little things, but like, it seems like it worked.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like you got along and dude, you're so lucky.
Richard Findley: Yeah, but largely we're fairly, fairly, um i mean, it was, when you say you work for your dad, a lot of people have this image of, oh, you just turn up when you want to. It was like, no, no, no, no.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: no no no
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: My bedroom door got knocked at seven o'clock every morning and we were out of the house at 7.40 having had breakfast.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Yep. Yep.
Richard Findley: we were And it was like every morning, it was like a proper job.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Richard Findley: It wasn't easy because he was my dad, you know I mean?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: It was a proper
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But that that sort of that sort of structure is probably why you guys worked so well.
Richard Findley: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It wasn't it wasn't sloppy. There was structure there.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And that made everyone respect the line and respect, you know, working a certain number of hours and getting things done. It sounds like you have a great you you had a great dad and a great family experience.
Richard Findley: Yeah, it was good, it was good, it was good, good. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what say about that, really. very kind of you.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Well, let me ask you this. So at this point, you're having this conversation with your father, you're like, I think, like, I want to be a woodturner, I want I want to take the business I have the the side hustle, as it were, full time, like, what's what's your split at this point, you're still working full time for your father for the family business, but but the business is picking up enough, the side business is picking up enough where you feel some confidence that it's going to succeed?
Richard Findley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: Yeah, so I'd got a couple of regular customers who were coming back to me time and again.
The Chaos Agent: Or is it is a real roll of the dice?
Richard Findley: And it was like, well, I've not really even tried to publicize the business particularly, as in I've got a website. That's it. That's really all I do. And people have found me from that. If I actually tried to spread the word, maybe I'd get more.
Richard Findley: And let's say it was a punt. you know i I didn't really know.
The Chaos Agent: Sure.
Richard Findley: And Woodturn, as we've already discussed, is a bit of a niche specialism. It's like, is there actually enough? I don't really know. But the thing is, I'd got a developed sort of carving skills. I could I've got my joinery.
Richard Findley: If woodturning all went to shit, I could hang doors for a living. Do you know, I could go on.
The Chaos Agent: You had enough of a dispersed skill set.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Richard Findley: Do you know what mean?
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: There's lots of things. So when I set this workshop up, I've got it set up to do any kind of woodwork.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: So you can say I've got band saw here, there's a planar thicknesser over there, there's a circular saw behind me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see that.
Richard Findley: you know So ah it's set up so I can actually do any kind of woodwork. And when I first started, I would do anything. I never said no to a job.
Richard Findley: So I did all sorts of things.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: um And actually over time, what I realized was, Woodturning is what I'm really good at. And in the end, was having enough work just to do woodturning.
Richard Findley: So I'd just say no to anything else. You know, occasionally I'd make a bit of furniture and actually the workshop's not that big. And so I'd be like, oh, I've got to move around the thing.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: It's in the way. I'm tripping over. There's not really enough room. Everything would take five times longer than I thought it would. So it's very hard to make money doing that sort of
The Chaos Agent: You ain't got to tell me that, buddy. So so at this point is ah is the woodturning the most work that's coming in or is the woodturning the most profitable part of the profitable part of the business?
The Chaos Agent: Both like how did you decide to start turning away all of the other things besides just space limitations?
Richard Findley: So got to the point where Dad wanted to retire. He actually sold the business.
The Chaos Agent: Mm. Yep.
Richard Findley: And what I did, went to work for the new owners. So I did like the transition. So Dad basically retired, although he was there as sort of a, what's the term, like a consultant if needed.
Richard Findley: But I was basically the transition point between the two businesses. So I started with them four days a week and I did a day plus sort of evenings and weekends for myself. And then over the next, I sort of had a two year plan that I'd build it up and and take their work down to three days and two days.
Richard Findley: And actually this happened in 2008. We all know what happened in 2008.
The Chaos Agent: Great time.
Richard Findley: Great time to start a business.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Great time to start.
Richard Findley: ah um But actually what happened was the company that bought my dad's business was a shop fitting business. um is that That's the term you would have, shop fitting. So you guys who fit out a retail shop.
Richard Findley: So they go in, do like shelves, display units, that sort of thing.
The Chaos Agent: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, OK.
The Chaos Agent: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Got it. Yep.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
Richard Findley: um and And they sort of thought, well, maybe the curtain tracks would be a good... side thing. um And so we sort of, the companies came together and I was, as I was doing four days week for them, but the recession hit them quite hard in in the shop fitting because nobody, no retail businesses wanted spend the money.
The Chaos Agent: Sure. Yeah.
Richard Findley: And so all their guys went down to three days a week. for a period, that suited me down to the ground because I've got my own things and actually only want to do three days anyway.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm. Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wow, that's great.
The Chaos Agent: Yep. Yep. Yeah. we Yeah.
Richard Findley: So although it it was a, you looking back, it's madness.
The Chaos Agent: yeahp
Richard Findley: You wouldn't start business then, but it just worked really well for me. And that two-year plan pretty much worked. And as a sort of 30th birthday present to myself, it was like,
Richard Findley: I'm going to start my own thing, you know?
The Chaos Agent: Nice, nice, nice.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All
Richard Findley: Um, so that was, uh, was that to june two June, 2010? That was, um, yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right. So what we're 16 years in then to your own thing.
Richard Findley: Full time. Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How's it going? Are you busy, busy, busy? Or are there fits and starts?
Richard Findley: Busy. I am booked for, so it's, it's now what the middle of April, start of April. I'm booked with production work to October. Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Damn.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Holy shit.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: And it's is it all things like the the set of 48 table legs?
Richard Findley: And I'm,
Richard Findley: Yeah, that's that's the direction I've i've taken purely because, ah say early on, i I didn't say no to anything and I just did whatever came in.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Sure.
Richard Findley: And you kind of learn what jobs work, what jobs you enjoy, what jobs you don't enjoy, which ones pay the money importantly.
The Chaos Agent: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Richard Findley: The ones i I try and dodge these days, which is going to sound weird to you, Paul, perhaps, is whenever whenever i get an email from someone saying, hi, I'm a designer and I'd like to do...
The Chaos Agent: Oh, yeah. No, fuck those guys.
Richard Findley: That's like red flags.
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, why is that?
The Chaos Agent: yep
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Why is that? wait explain.
Richard Findley: ah Most of the designers that I've come across couldn't design their way out of a paper bag.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
The Chaos Agent: That part agreed 1000%. And I don't mean to shit necessarily on designers. Most of them are lovely people that are incredibly difficult to work with because they have, they have an idea, but they don't have any real understanding of like how to actually make an object in reality.
Richard Findley: Yeah, I think. Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: And then the, the limitations of the materials in the trades.
Richard Findley: Exactly that. Yep. Absolutely that.
The Chaos Agent: So it's just a nightmare.
Richard Findley: so So what you guys do, is being a designer maker, I suppose, you design something and then you it's only you to blame if the thing's a real Borlake to make.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's right.
Richard Findley: You know I mean?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's right.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Findley: What I found was these designers, when they come to you, they've got an idea and they've got a drawing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Richard Findley: And at the start, because I'm a people pleaser and I'm trying to run a business that's successful, I'm like, yeah, I can do that. I'm sure I can do that. We'll work. And I would wrestle with wood in ways that didn't want to be wrestled with to achieve what these people wanted.
Richard Findley: And what realized actually further down the line was the designers don't actually care that much.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
Richard Findley: They've got an idea. And if you say to them, It won't work, mate. They go, oh, okay, no problem.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Richard Findley: Because they've just drawn a thing and thought, oh, I like it.
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Richard Findley: This might work.
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Richard Findley: And but i need someone who can make it. Richard will do it. Can you make that? And if I say yes, then it's suddenly my problem.
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
The Chaos Agent: Yep, yep, yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so So Richard, designers are out. What is your favorite kind of job and why?
Richard Findley: So ah the production... I do enjoy the production stuff. as I would say... I don't like big production jobs. I would never make thousand of something.
Richard Findley: I did a thousand once and I would never, ever do it again.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wow.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah? What was it?
Richard Findley: It was the most... It didn't help that it was a bit of a crappy job as well. My best customer at the time, I was turning walking canes for them, and they were all like Gothic stuff.
Richard Findley: They'd give me these Gothic schools and stuff that were on top, and I'd turn the canes and spray them black and assemble them, and they'd sell them off all over the world. But they also had a section of their business that was doing like um merchandising and that sort of thing, and they had this commission come in from a firm who wanted a...
Richard Findley: This customer had some sort of seminar or something, and they wanted a lot a little gift to give to everyone. And so they came up with this key ring with a sand timer in it with a plaque on the side.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh boy. boy
The Chaos Agent: Mm-hmm.
Richard Findley: So imagine, have you ever been to one of those little B&B hotels where they give you a key with a massive fob so that you don't lose it?
The Chaos Agent: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Richard Findley: It was kind of that sort of thing.
The Chaos Agent: Okay.
Richard Findley: weren't even turned. I'll go straight from the top. It wasn't even turned. But this was in the really early days. I was still working for Dad at the time. And I didn't really know how to price things properly.
Richard Findley: The timber guy basically screwed me over because I needed an inch and a half beach.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: And he turned Well, I couldn't get an inch and I've got you two inch. Well, there's profit down the Swanee straight away. And you just don't realize how many a thousand of something is until they're in front of you. And which sounds stupid, but I'm ah i'm a bit of a counter. So when I'm doing stuff, I'm like, oh, there's 10 done, 10 done.
Richard Findley: tendonn
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Holy shit.
Richard Findley: Yeah, you've done 10 tens, that's only 100. That's only 10%.
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Richard Findley: You've gone i got to do that another.
The Chaos Agent: Yep. Oh, Jesus.
Richard Findley: and And these things, they had like four or five steps to them.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh boy.
The Chaos Agent: Ugh.
Richard Findley: Four or five steps times 1,000 just...
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Richard Findley: And then there was a deadline as well. So then the pressure... In the end, had all of the guys working for dad doing it. My mother-in-law was sticking these labels on. Everyone I knew was doing something...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh my god, that sounds awful.
Richard Findley: And the stress of the whole thing and the deadline and getting it all done to the quality. And the worst thing is, like said, it was a crap thing. They would all have been in landfill within a fortnight of the event. You know, it was so bad.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Findley: And I didn't make any money on it because ah basically went, that sounds about the right price.
The Chaos Agent: ah
Richard Findley: You know, I didn't really know anything about it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. You didn't have enough experience to figure it out, man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, rich.
Richard Findley: Exactly that.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: So it was a, the only good thing I can take from it is that I learned a lot from it.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: And the main thing I learned was I'm never ever doing a thousand of anything ever again.
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
Richard Findley: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: what's the Rich, are you more, let's see, would you say you're more, I think you seem to be more repetition based, not to a thousand of thumb something, but you do enjoy repetition versus novelty seeking.
The Chaos Agent: yep
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Where do you put yourself on that continuum?
Richard Findley: So I do like to... One my problems is because I'm booked so far ahead, I don't get lot of time to sort play. So there's occasionally things that enter my head and it's like, oh, that'd be quite a good thing to make.
The Chaos Agent: Mmm.
Richard Findley: But what I've found is, and I've sort of developed myself a little thing where I can play in that I write articles for the Woodturning magazine in the UK.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, Eric.
The Chaos Agent: Nice.
Richard Findley: And I've been doing that for about 15 years. And so I've got quite a good relationship with the editor. And so basically she lets me write whatever I want. So I'm doing a series at minute on making turn boxes.
Richard Findley: And so I've never made a couple of different types of boxes that I'd like to make. So I write an article about it. I spent a couple of days in the workshop making a thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah eric
Richard Findley: i write about it. I'm paid to do it. I don't even have to try and sell it because I've been paid to do the article. I've got writing articles down to quite a a thing.
The Chaos Agent: So that's.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's awesome.
The Chaos Agent: That's a really clever way of of like finding time to play in the shop when you do it professionally can be very, very difficult, because even if you have like a chunk of time that you're like, I'm going to do this for three days, you're still
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: fixed on the next thing you have to do to pay the bills, you know, because you're running a business, right?
Richard Findley: Absolutely. Yep. Yep.
The Chaos Agent: So it, I hate when people say like, it sucks the joy out of the thing. You know, if you want to hate your, your hobby, like do professionally, that kind of thing.
Richard Findley: Yep.
The Chaos Agent: I don't think that's true, but I understand the point they're getting at.
Richard Findley: Absolutely.
The Chaos Agent: But what you've done is, is find a way to allow you to feel more emotionally comfortable, like in the play area, because it's already getting paid, right?
Richard Findley: Yep.
Richard Findley: Yep.
The Chaos Agent: Like that's, that's a fantastic way to go about it.
Richard Findley: That's it. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, but I'm coming back to the question because each of us needs to locate ourselves on the repetition loving versus novelty seeking.
The Chaos Agent: on the spectrum.
Richard Findley: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Rich, you didn't answer. Where are you on that spectrum?
Richard Findley: um So, yeah, i you know when you two have been talking in the past like you don't like doing the same thing more than once? I hear you. i do get it. I'm not special.
Richard Findley: I'm not wired differently.
The Chaos Agent: He's avoiding the question again, Paul.
Richard Findley: You know what I mean?
The Chaos Agent: I don't know.
Richard Findley: um and and And going back to your last podcast, umm I'm not ADHD either, so I've not got that thing I can lie rely back on.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Again, again, i know it.
The Chaos Agent: but i He won't give a straight answer.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: we he we He cannot answer this question.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, okay.
Richard Findley: So...
Richard Findley: I like money. So i like... ah ah Production work works for me quite well.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: okay okay
The Chaos Agent: All right. All right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, where are you on the spectrum?
The Chaos Agent: ah I mean, I definitely fall more, a lot more towards the novelty seeking than the repetition. Um, I don't think I'm a hundred percent at the novelty.
The Chaos Agent: Uh, I, I find, I find a good deal of comfort in, uh, the boring processes that allow me to get to the novelty.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, no, you're not.
The Chaos Agent: Right. So like when I have an idea that's new, that's interesting that I'm excited about, the first step is always going to be choose the lumber, mill the lumber, get everything down to rough parts. And that that can be three days of work where you're just like fucking jointing, you know, thicknessing table saw like that's it over and over again.
The Chaos Agent: And then in that I enjoy the kind of, um, the repetitive motion, the the turning the brain off, the letting the mind wander. So that, but I think if I did that every day and I have in the past working in cabinet shops, I get, I get bored within a few days.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, what you said is is interesting because I thought the same thing today. I thought, well, I'm definitely noveled sorry wired towards novelty for sure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But that's in terms of design.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But every time you come up with a new design, there's tons of repetition to to make the thing.
The Chaos Agent: Mm-hmm. It's still the same damn craft, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it's It is.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So it's like when we talk about this idea of novelty versus repetition, I believe all of us have to be okay with the repetition because woodworking is repetitious.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The fundamentals are always going to be the fundamentals.
Richard Findley: So that leads on to something I didn't want to sort of touch on and that is that that repetition is what makes you good and
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's it. 100%.
The Chaos Agent: Mm-hmm.
Richard Findley: So people look at my work and they're like, oh, that's amazing. How did you manage to do that? It's like, well, I did it a lot. You know, I've done this for 20 years.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I made a thousand of them.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: That's how. Mm-hmm.
Richard Findley: And like that the the legs I was just telling you about, they were a real fiddly bloody thing, stupid design, never designed by woodturner because, you know, really fiddly little details, real pain in the ass.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: hidden
The Chaos Agent: Mm-hmm.
Richard Findley: The first one took me 40 minutes. But by the time I'd done 48 of them, the last one took about 15 minutes.
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Richard Findley: That's how you get good at something, isn't it?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: huge efficiency gains.
Richard Findley: you know
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes, yes.
Richard Findley: um ah And one of the problems with hobby woodturners, and I don't want to jump on Paul's bandwagon
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i was going to say, are are we, is it is it time for us to shit on woodturners?
The Chaos Agent: Wait a second. Is it coming in full circle? Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Let's go.
The Chaos Agent: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm in.
Richard Findley: so what So one of the problems with hobby woodturners is they will they will make a bowl. Great, I've made a bowl now. They'll make a box. made a boxed out, they'll make a hollow form, a vase type thing.
Richard Findley: Right, I've done that now. What do I do now? you know um
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: And then they'll they'll move on and they'll do like go from the bowl to like segmented bowls and things like that. But they've not actually mastered a basic bowl yet. And so often the shapes of some of the early segmented things are a bit clunky and weird because they've not done it in solid wood enough yet.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Richard Findley: And then, you know, so Making the same thing over and over again can be tedious. No argument for me. It can be tedious, but that is how you get good.
Richard Findley: And the question is, how do you get good if you don't repeat? And from your point of view, something like, don't know, cutting dovetails, if you make one table with one drawer in it, those dovetails going to be shit.
The Chaos Agent: Yep. Yep.
Richard Findley: Your 10th table with your 10th drawer, they might be quite good.
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Richard Findley: and it's And I know not everybody wants to make a business of it, but the way to get good is to do it over and over and over again.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And the way to earn more money is to have those efficiency gains and become known for making those things, right?
The Chaos Agent: For sure. Is to do it over, to limit yourself.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You you get your name out there. So go ahead, Eric. Yeah. Were you going say something?
The Chaos Agent: Well, I was going to say to the dovetail point and to the repetition point, those skills, like if you want to get good at dovetails, ah make a chest of drawers, right? Like you'll be good by the last drawer.
The Chaos Agent: Dovetail all four corners, 16 drawers, whatever it is. But then let's say two things I want to say. Number one, find one technique and stick with it. Right. Don't go like, OK, well, on my back dovetails, I'm going to cut them with all hand tools.
The Chaos Agent: And then on my front dovetails, I'm going to use a router jig like those are there are two different skill sets. Right. But also over time, if you take a break from something and Richard, I wonder if you feel this way when you go from like making table legs to turning bowls or something, you haven't turned a bowl in a while.
The Chaos Agent: Your first bowl again is going to take you a little bit extra time. It might be a little sloppier. Right. So In the dovetails analogy, I'll usually start if I'm dovetailing all four corners, which is rare these days, I'll start with the dovetails in the back of the drawer because I know those are going a little bit shittier and then I'll do the ones in the front.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: You know, you got to re-dust off the skill and kind of get right back into that muscle memory.
Richard Findley: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Every time when I turn, i have to, every time a bull, every time I have to turn a bull, and here I am shitting on bull turners, and I have to turn a bull, I have to go back to YouTube and see how to present the tool.
The Chaos Agent: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because like I forget. It's been so long in between sessions. Rich is like, yeah, right.
Richard Findley: There's a really good guy on YouTube who's done a series about how to turn bowls recently.
The Chaos Agent: yeah
Richard Findley: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah?
Richard Findley: Check him out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Is this RF?
Richard Findley: Yeah, really good. Yeah, yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Is it right Ricardo Findlay, I believe?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Are those his initials?
Richard Findley: Yeah, Richard underscore Findlay. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. So, you know, I was curious about this idea about repetition versus novelty seeking from a psychological point of view. And I did ah just a little bit of research looking into the different brains. we You know, we just did an episode on ADHD in the brain. And so I've been thinking a lot about dopamine release and what we find...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you know ah compelling. and what the And I didn't get into a ton of primary research, but the consensus seems to be that people who are novelty seeking have like an openness experience.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: an openness to experience They enjoy um they enjoy the journey of new discovery and that when they don't have that, when it's a lot of repetition, they may find it boring or perhaps even stifling, uh, because their brain is wired that way. So, uh, it's like there's an excitability and an impulsivity to like, let's discover, let's try this and let's try that. Let's go here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And it's it's often linked extroversion, which I guess doesn't surprise me because I'm like an extreme extrovert. And so the idea of like being open to new experiences, being open to, um to novelty seems to go with the idea of extroversion. However, that,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm not suggesting that the opposite is not a good thing either. So let me let me explain why. So you say, all right, I like new experiences. It gives me dopamine.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's super exciting. I'm an extrovert. I'm open to new experiences. Great. Does that mean that the other person not open to new experiences? No. It means that the people who prefer repetition score high in like an emotional stability or low neuroticism.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So individuals like that enjoy repetition are emotionally like regulated. They enjoy predictability and routine. You can imagine evolutionarily as we're right.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, one of those people is going to die and the other one's going to be safe in the cave.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. Yes.
The Chaos Agent: I was the asshole who was like, can I kill a mammoth?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's it, Eric.
The Chaos Agent: I don't know. Let's find out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
The Chaos Agent: the
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you know Evolutionarily, humans need both traits. we We have to know what is safe and dependable, right? For food, for shelter, for our safety.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like that is so important to surviving in in a chaotic world. However, if you never explore outside, how do you find the next place to live or the next food source or the next whatever? So you see, I think both of these traits, whether it's repetition and stability or the extroverted neuroticism of joy the joy of novelty, those are it's not one or the other. Really, i think both are probably ah the the optimum. And I think, Eric, you see that in our work.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Well, I was also going to say like at some point, um, the, had to take a chunk of wood and stick it on a spinny thing and stick a knife into it.
The Chaos Agent: So like some point the wood turners were the novelty seekers.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Cause like, have you ever chucked up a green log and spun it at 3,600 RPMs?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's.
The Chaos Agent: Like you feel like you're going to die.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, well, let's just say one of one of the woodturners, one of the woodturners was a novelty seeker.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Findley: You probably would if you did that.
The Chaos Agent: yeah
Richard Findley: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Whether that person survived, whether that person survived the experience is a completely different question.
The Chaos Agent: yeah
The Chaos Agent: ah
Richard Findley: But you see, early on in your, and a i' really looking at woodturning here, but early on in your turning journey, everyone is like that because it's, oh, I can make a bowl. Oh, I can make a box. There's a lot of different things you can turn.
Richard Findley: So i do um my my interest but with my background actually is furniture stuff. So I like making things for furniture. I always sort of say, I kind of wanted to be a furniture maker, but kind of got distracted at woodturning on the way and never really got past it kind of thing, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Rich, what you brought up hold on what what you brought up was the idea of immediate gratification. I do think that woodturning has a much more immediate gratification than furniture making.
Richard Findley: Yeah. Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I make a chest of drawers, it's going to take the next three to five months.
Richard Findley: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I just know it.
Richard Findley: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm not going to see that you know to five months.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But if I could turn a thing, I could have that furniture.
The Chaos Agent: and In an hour and a half lunch break? Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Like it starts to pay dividends real fast.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and i and i And I think for hobbyists who don't have a ton of time, having a project that they can start and finish and feel good about achieving something in a small amount of time makes a lot of sense.
Richard Findley: yeah
Richard Findley: Yep.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Well, you know, ah as a furniture maker, or cabinet maker, sometimes I got to get things done like as fast as a woodturner. And when I do, you know, it's a fantastic way to do that is to use a goddamn nail, little pin nail, little glue and pin nail action, you know?
The Chaos Agent: And you know what does a great job hiding pin nails?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yo.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Tell me, Eric.
The Chaos Agent: Wood filler from our sponsor today, Gorilla Glue. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, this is well this is our new sponsor, by the way. This is brandy new.
The Chaos Agent: We got a new sponsor. Hi, Teddy boy. ah Yes. So listen, if you've ever worked in cabinetry, which two of the three of us have professionally, you know, sometimes you got to bang a thing together. Sometimes you're using like pre-fin maple, you and you got to throw a couple of tacks in there and then you got to fill the hole. You know, what's great for that is a natural colored wood filler that dries tough,
The Chaos Agent: that dries gives you extra strength and it gives you a nice finish to, to surface to finish on. That's a weird way to phrase that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That was weird.
The Chaos Agent: Um, yeah, well, sometimes, you know, once you tell me about the glue, Paul, once you just stop sitting there, listen to me, fumble this fucking ad read and contribute, buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um Okay, so when i um when ah we were originally asked to take on a new sponsor, which is Gorilla Glue, I, of course, struggle because I don't like ads. and But I do have a criteria, which is it has to be something that I believe in.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I have used, ah there's there's two points I want to bring up. I have used Gorilla Glue, and we can talk about this. you know This will be our our sponsor for for quite some time. ah I have used the polyurethane glue extensively with veneering, but I didn't know that they had a PVA glue, like a wood glue, let's say. And it says it has less water.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And the water is important to me because when you're using anything thin, like veneers or what have you, Water obviously will make a cup when you glue it. And cupping is tough because if it cups, like let's say you glue two veneers together or something thin and it's all cupped, what do you do? You can't use it that day. I usually have to wait two or three days for the water to evaporate from one of the sides. So I have to be careful about which side is up, which side is down and let that evaporate. So the idea that it maybe has less water in it
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is, it definitely makes me open to working with it and trying it.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, that's that's big. I've talked about veneering with wood glues, water soluble glues.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: And it can be a nightmare, especially for near veneering over MDF. So something with a little less water is fantastic. And I know I have a bucket of Gorilla wood filler in the shop right now.
The Chaos Agent: Because sometimes also, sometimes you just have a painted surface, right? And you screw the thing together in cabinetry all the time.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: You slap a little filler on there, you sand it down, you get it painted. All's right with the world. So Gorilla, tough enough for the pros, easy enough for everyone, including woodturners.
The Chaos Agent: So if you want to get some today, you go to GorillaTough.com slash woodworkingisBS to support our goddamn podcast. It's Gorilla.com slash woodworkingisBS.
The Chaos Agent: And thanks to Gorilla Glue. Let me ask you a question, Rich. What's your relationship with our Lord and Savior?
The Chaos Agent: have you Have you prayed at the altar?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: rich rich nose Rich knows what we're talking about.
The Chaos Agent: ah
Richard Findley: I do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: He's listening to every episode.
Richard Findley: I've listened to every episode. So I was looking forward. i was i was sad when I heard you got a new sponsor. I thought I'd missed out on this, but we've got two sponsors.
The Chaos Agent: Oh, no, no, no, no. no
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, you didn't miss out.
Richard Findley: This is good. I like it.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, let me tell you something. Our Lord and Savior, William Teresa Burkle, is a man amongst men.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Teresa is not his middle name.
The Chaos Agent: And let me tell you, this episode is coming out on Wednesday, April 15th. Yeah, Paul?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep, two days.
The Chaos Agent: phenomenal. And you know, what's two days after that Friday, April 17th from 10 AM to 1 PM. It's little mellow demo day over at a WTB. So if you're looking revolutionize your joinery, whether you're a professional cabinet maker or a dedicated woodworker, this is an event you don't want to miss.
The Chaos Agent: So head on down there.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Sherry and Jack shery and jack love LaMelo ice cream. You know that.
The Chaos Agent: That a mellow flavored ice cream is, is the tips.
Richard Findley: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: LaMelo flavored ice cream.
The Chaos Agent: Uh, so that's down at three 90 Pike road in Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania. and you know what else they got over there, rich? They got 10% off all woodturning blanks, buddy.
Richard Findley: That's good.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
Richard Findley: Excellent.
The Chaos Agent: I think maybe that's in-store only, unfortunately, but maybe, you know, hop a flight.
Richard Findley: Bit of a way for me to go. Absolutely.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: Try and stop me.
The Chaos Agent: For 10% off, you can save $10, $20. You know, that's...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Travel from the UK all the way to Pennsylvania.
The Chaos Agent: And then get stopped at customs for bringing in raw materials into another country. This feels like a win-win for everybody.
Richard Findley: yeah
The Chaos Agent: So I'm going to let Bill know you'll be there on LaMelo Day to pick up some wood-turning blanks. Does that sound good?
Richard Findley: absolutely try and stop me
The Chaos Agent: All right.
Richard Findley: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
The Chaos Agent: Uh...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So, yeah. So my next back back to back to the the idea of repetition versus novelty. One of the things we didn't talk about yet, but we flirted with is the idea of running a business and earning money. Now, Rich, you were like, I fucking love money.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And that's
The Chaos Agent: this
Richard Findley: Well, I can't live it too much because I'm professional woodturner. If I love money that much, I'd get a proper job, wouldn't I?
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, you make different life decisions.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Fair, fair, fair.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But ah you also like being happy. So, ah you know, one of these, you know, repetition versus one of a kind novelty seeking, they have very different value propositions with respect to earning potential.
Richard Findley: Yeah, I like to eat.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: When you make something new for the first time, boy, you are gonna take it. You are absolutely gonna suffer because you have nothing set up.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You have no efficiency gains. You're not sure how to do anything. You're gonna make mistakes. and have to repeat things and it will take, what did you say, Rich? The first leg, and you're ah you're a fucking great Turner.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The first leg took you 48 minutes and the last one took you 15.
Richard Findley: 40 minutes, yeah. 15, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So like for you, like Jesus Christ, man, you're a great fucking Turner. Like the fact that you could have those efficiency gains in turning means a not great Turner, me, for example, would have perhaps an even more, you know, more ah fold efficiency gain.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So as as business owners, you two, both of you, how do you figure out what's acceptable in terms of like, all right, it's it's a one-off, I'll take it, I'll take it on the chin efficiency wise, and I'll make less money per hour versus I have to take jobs that have some repetition to earn that efficiency gain.
The Chaos Agent: Thank you.
Richard Findley: So for me, the the other the other aspect to look at is if I've done a load of production stuff, having a little one-off job, don't hurt to break up the monotony, does it? you know So sometimes a job will come in and you just think, I'd really like to have a go that.
Richard Findley: That looks quite... That's a nice challenge, the sort of thing I'd like to try, you know, whether it's got a barley twist on it or it's got something different or little carved detail maybe or don't know, just something a bit different.
Richard Findley: And just sometimes you look at, well, actually, that's going to take me a week to make. They're never going to pay for that. But what would they pay for? You know, often they'll pay more than you think as well.
Richard Findley: Top secret. Yeah.
Richard Findley: I spent so many years sort of going, oh, that sounds a bit much. Let's take it down a bit.
The Chaos Agent: Oh yeah, we all do that.
Richard Findley: Now, now I work out what I want and then i just round it up a bit and then add a bit more because people pay. People got loads more money than I have, so they will pay more
The Chaos Agent: Well, that's also, in fairness, in fairness, that's also your reputation coming into play.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
The Chaos Agent: Like people can see your body of work. People maybe have been recommended to you by a previous client, by a friend. And they go like, okay, that's, you know, I could, I could pay that, but I know that I'm going to get quality job out of this guy versus like Richard Finley in 2006.
The Chaos Agent: They were like, who the fuck is this clown? Why would I pay him? You know, I don't know what kind of quality I'm going to get.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: Yeah. Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: So, um, so yeah, if there's, if there's something interesting, I would, I'd obviously you still got to earn the money, but I would take a little bit of a hit if it was interesting enough to, to warrant me doing.
Richard Findley: So yeah, I'm not totally against doing that.
The Chaos Agent: Let me ask you a question about your business because this will directly reflect on how I run my business. It sounds to me the...
The Chaos Agent: The thing that pays your bills is the objects, the process, the turnings. And the demos, the teaching in the YouTube are things that you enjoy doing.
The Chaos Agent: And they're definitely promoting the business. They're acting as advertisements. But they allow you to bring in the variability that you enjoy.
Richard Findley: Exactly that. Yeah. Because I mean, in the workshop on a production job, it's me and my radio and that's it.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: You know, so the the demos give me a chance to get out and actually talk to real people, not just not just my workshop wall, you know.
The Chaos Agent: Oh.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: So that keeps me a more rounded human, I'd like to think, you know, I think, you know, it's.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so what percentage of the business from an income perspective the other components versus the actual turning of the objects?
Richard Findley: As a businessman, I should know exactly every percentage. um and um
The Chaos Agent: Roughly, roughly.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But you...
The Chaos Agent: Are we talking 10%? Are we talking 40%? Hmm.
Richard Findley: yeah No, well under half for the demos and stuff. Most of my income is through production turning, really.
The Chaos Agent: Okay. Okay.
Richard Findley: I've got a little web shop and I sell a few bits from that. So that's a little bit of the main thing. The way I look at it is to keep me going. If I was to ever get a dry spell when I've not got any work, I need different income streams to.
The Chaos Agent: Sure. Sure. Sure.
Richard Findley: And that's really what i've I've built it up with.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Rich, has that happened? Do you have dry spells or are you so well known that you don't have any?
Richard Findley: Not often. I have occasionally had dry spell. mean, the the thing I would say, the I'm very well known in the woodturning, woodworking world. Outside of that, nobody knows who I am.
Richard Findley: If I'm in a room of woodturners, I'm probably one of the most famous people in there.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: As soon as I step out of that room, nobody knows who I am.
The Chaos Agent: Dude, that's the best. Localized fame is the best type of fame to have.
Richard Findley: yeah
The Chaos Agent: Absolutely.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: okay
Richard Findley: um So, you know, people don't necessarily, obviously they've seen the work I do, they can go on my Instagram and scroll through and see the sort of work that I've done.
The Chaos Agent: Um...
Richard Findley: So they do get a bit of confidence that way, but I'm not, you know, known in that way sort of thing, you know, and i'm not a big brand in the furniture world, you know, if you think of it that way.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I understand.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Richard Findley: um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: or Eric, how do you survive how how do you survive the money side? like Look, your YouTube your youtube actually, i think in many ways, um reinforces novelty because people like new videos.
The Chaos Agent: ah one thousand percent
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right
The Chaos Agent: So, well, that's that's why I asked about your your business split, Rich, because my business is set up at this point where the documenting, the process of making an object is...
The Chaos Agent: better than 50% of my business. And so the object, like sometimes I sell them, sometimes they're on commission. That novelty seeking is what keeps me interested and engaged in the woodworking component of it.
The Chaos Agent: But what I've realized is the making of the video has become streamlined more and more. So that's become the repetition where I can have efficiency gains.
The Chaos Agent: So like when I first started, video would take me three days to edit a 10 minute video, 12 minute video, right? You're learning new skills. You're trying to figure out how to tell a story. You're trying to figure out what's engaging, what works, what doesn't. And now at this point, like I just did a 40 minute video that came out on Saturday.
The Chaos Agent: This is the longest video I've done. And my editor did like a rough cut for me. So that was one efficiency gain I learned, right? Like learning what to outsource and when that helps keep the business stable.
The Chaos Agent: But also then it was like maybe two thirds of a day, close to a full day of editing for a 40 minute video versus multiple days of editing for a 10 minute video. So learning how, like, again, what works, what doesn't work, finding your voice in video telling or storytelling and video editing, just learning how a program works and getting more efficient with like keyboard shortcuts, et cetera, et cetera.
The Chaos Agent: That's all that same thing. just exists in the digital world.
The Chaos Agent: So, yeah, I think my business suits me quite well for the novelty seeking. And then what another funny thing in regards to like how I'm wired to seek novelty.
The Chaos Agent: Paul, we've talked many times over the last, I don't know, year that like I felt little directionless and almost a little bored with the video making aspect of things. And this is not...
The Chaos Agent: public information yet, but the contract is basically signed. So I will be teaching part of the 12 week program at CFC in December, November, December.
The Chaos Agent: So I'll be up there for six weeks teaching, which is the longest stint I've taken away from my shop and video making in a while. And the question is like, well, does that make sense from a business perspective?
The Chaos Agent: Sure, I'll be making less money while I'm up there teaching than I would be if I was making videos. But the moment I thought about the opportunity, I just felt excited about it. And I was like, OK, well, there's your answer.
The Chaos Agent: you know Go do the thing. Take a break from the monotony of making videos. And then when you come back to it, you're a little fresher, you're a little more excited about it. And, you know, you can kind of reinvigorate those juices.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So you're talking in broad strokes about ways to stay fresh. Like, yeah, you could mix.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So, Rich, you've touched on i write articles or I do one off projects that sound interesting or I teach and Eric, you're talking about I'm looking at different income streams or like, you know, turning more towards teaching.
The Chaos Agent: I feel like Rich and I are doing the exact same thing. The the the numbers are just reversed of like, you know, he's making the objects and that's 60 or 70% of his income.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: And I'm making the videos 60% of my income. But those two processes are both the production work of the business.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. Yes. And so, Rich, you sent me a really interesting, and this relates to what we're talking about, which is surviving repetition. right We'll call this chapter surviving repetition.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You sent me a really interesting post, Rich, that says, too often we hear that kids can't handle discomfort anymore. And I would extend that beyond kids. I would say adults and kids, everyone, everyone can't handle discomfort anymore.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah We put on earbuds for every walk. We fill every silence with a podcast. We distract every moment of boredom. We're training our brain that our internal world is something to escape from.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We've put diapers on on every sensation we experience. We've padded the world. And now we're wondering why nobody can feel anything. Take the diaper off. So this was a post you sent me off Instagram, Rich.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And it's coming to this idea that We're constantly... occupying our brain, which keeps us away from what we call the default mode network, which is the part of your brain where there's no stimuli. And then your brain starts thinking about everything else, life, the problems you have in the back burner, the things you should have done at home. There's a lot of uncomfortable sensations that come with the default mode network being active. So because we as a culture,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: are now inundated with stimuli. Our default mode network doesn't seem to get engaged very much. That's what this post is talking about. Now, you said something super interesting at the beginning of this episode before we even went online and you said, yeah, but that stimuli helps me survive the repetition.
The Chaos Agent: We've talked about this before, buddy. We've talked about the problem of like, we'll lump tradesmen and and blue collar workers all into the same umbrella right now. But we've talked about this before of like, once you get good at a thing and your hands learn how to do it and your brain can turn off, there is some level of boredom.
The Chaos Agent: And some folks, this is, more other trades, I think, than than in woodturning or furniture making. But some folks will turn to like smoking a joint before they go lay brick all day, you know, just because their mind gets so bored and you can do it without thinking.
The Chaos Agent: And yes, I 100% agree that filling the silences all the time is a terrible choice. We need to pare back, which is ironic as we sit here making a podcast that people will be listening to in the shop or on their walks or whatever.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know, right?
The Chaos Agent: or We're such fucking hypocrites.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We're part of that distraction. we We are part of that digital distraction.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. But hopefully after this episode, folks will like put their phone in another room and go into the shop and make a thing for an hour without any distractions or go on a walk without your phone. you know But from from a from a working perspective, if you do that eight hours a day, five days a week, you get to a point where you're like, I have nothing left to think about.
The Chaos Agent: know Like a distraction is welcome.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, you've yeah, yeah,
The Chaos Agent: ah
Richard Findley: I suppose with all things, it's balance, isn't it? You need a bit of that quiet time. and yeah I say I work on my own and a lot people can't do that.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: I'm quite happy with my own company, but I also, I don't know, a, what's the word I'm after? I'm fishing for a word.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah. Extrovert.
Richard Findley: That's the word I'm after, at yeah. Introvert and extrovert. I'm a bit of both. I can't really put my finger. The only thing that ever comes to my mind, and I don't really believe in, was going to say astronomy, astrology.
Richard Findley: But, I mean, it's as good as any other hokum-pokum religion to look at. But I'm Gemini, which is famously like two personalities. I'm perfectly happy on my own in my workshop,
The Chaos Agent: Hmm. Yep.
Richard Findley: me my radio or me and my noisy machines. I can't hear the radio anyway. So I'm fine with my own thoughts. I also, I'm quite happy at a party. I can get drunk and have a party with the best of them.
Richard Findley: You know, I can do both. So I'm not a total introvert. I'm not a total extrovert. I can, a little bit of both. The same with my woodtower, really, you know, I don't, doing what all of one is probably not very healthy.
Richard Findley: You know, I like to do a bit of both. You know, I can, I can be all on my own. I'm quite happy in my own company, but I like to go with my friends, have a few beers, whatever, you know, it's...
The Chaos Agent: So when when you're in your own company in the shop doing, you know, you've got eight hours of legs in front of you, do you.
The Chaos Agent: When I was working in cabinet shops, what I would often do is like I would I would just put the foam earbuds in in the morning and like have no music or anything on and just do that until lunch. And ISO tunes and I would just like put on the radio, put on a podcast, whatever, because that what i I noticed having just a chunk of time to your point, which you just said, having a chunk of time where you're just kind of.
The Chaos Agent: zoned for lack of a better way to phrase it. That was really helpful. And it it's it helped the day go by faster, you know, because like when you are constantly like you have an album on, you have a podcast on.
The Chaos Agent: It's a time check of like, OK, there's an hour and a half, right? There's 45 minutes, whatever it is. But when you get into a zone from eight to twelve and like you're just whatever you're doing, building cabinets and then just like, oh, oops, four hours just went by.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm. Hmm.
The Chaos Agent: So what's, what do you have a split like that where you're like, I, I dedicate some time to silence and then I put the radio on.
Richard Findley: Not necessarily. I tend to have the radio on most of the time, but my machines are all quite noisy, so I can't necessarily hear it terribly well all the time.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm
Richard Findley: For me, I think...
Richard Findley: Oh, I had a really good point then. know it's gone out my head.
The Chaos Agent: ah
Richard Findley: The 80 when that happens.
The Chaos Agent: that you said you weren't eighty hd brother
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: x act
Richard Findley: Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ex extrovert.
Richard Findley: thanks um So, yeah, i um because the other thing is do kind of lot of its mindset, I think um the the worst thing you can get into is, you know, like being a bored school kid.
Richard Findley: Oh, my God, I'm bored. I've got another the four hours of this.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: As soon as that happens, you are doomed because that last four hours is going to feel like four weeks.
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Richard Findley: I'm really careful not to let myself fall into, oh my God, I'm bored. you know I tend to try and flip it a little bit and it's like, okay, I'm always trying sort of race myself a little bit.
Richard Findley: And there is a point where if you get too fast, the quality drops. So there's a sweet spot of speed and quality.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: And at the end of the day, the quality is the most important thing. So if they take so long for a thing, that's how long they take. There's nothing you about that. But you can get quicker to that point.
Richard Findley: And I do tend to, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is this Is this like an internal game, Rich, like that you play with yourself to like keep the interest level?
Richard Findley: I gamify it. I think that's the only way to do it, yeah. And it's it's a case of, so I'm trying to get it to under 25 minutes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Richard Findley: Okay, that one was 18 minutes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
Richard Findley: you know
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Richard Findley: We can do that.
The Chaos Agent: Yep.
Richard Findley: um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: A challenge. Yeah.
Richard Findley: Yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: A goal. Something to to see.
Richard Findley: And ah i've I've become quite good at, I know that if I can do, if it's 20 minutes each, that's three an hour. So I can do, by the end of the day, I need to have this many done.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
Richard Findley: And it's it's little things like that just to try and keep going.
The Chaos Agent: Sure.
Richard Findley: But what you were saying earlier, Eric, about being on a machine,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Findley: playing in machine, know, playing in ripping wood, whatever. I really liked that. That sort of just sort monotony and loads of noise. You're only got your head then, haven't you?
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Richard Findley: And that there is a thing where, and I think only, only people who do our sort of thing get it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Findley: If you, if you say I'm using a circular saw and thinking of other things, a lot of people go, were you crazy?
The Chaos Agent: yeah.
Richard Findley: Are you mad? No, no, no, they're all there at the minute.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: It's still there at minute. Um, there is that thing where you can, your hands know what they do. Once you've done the first few and you're in that rhythm, your hands know what they're doing and your mind can wander a little
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yep.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: I think that's really good. And although I'm not, what I've come to realize is although I'm not kind of artistic in my work and my output, I'm, I am quite creative, as in write the articles.
Richard Findley: I have to come up with the idea of what I'm doing for my next article, my next three articles.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm. Hmm.
Richard Findley: I'm doing YouTube videos. I need some things to do videos about. So there's things I can think through and develop and build on. And I've got a podcast coming up.
Richard Findley: What are we talk about?
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: We've got talk about this. So there's stuff that can roll around and I can plan and I can be creative with that without having to be artistic in my work, so to speak.
Richard Findley: Some people have this... need, their need is to express themselves through their work. I don't have that. My need as a maker is to make stuff. And I don't really care what I'm making.
Richard Findley: As long as my hands are busy making something, I'm quite happy, which is a good job, because some stuff I have to make is
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: I think you you had damn you had Freddie on a while, Freddie Roman, didn't you? And I don't know him, but I've followed him for years on Instagram.
The Chaos Agent: yeah
Richard Findley: And he said he was talking about a table he had to make that was dog ugly.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, it was atrocious.
Richard Findley: ah dont i don't I've not seen that, but that really rang a bell with me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, I saw it in person.
Richard Findley: Like, yeah, sometimes you get these designs come through and you go, ooh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: makes you want to puke.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, it's terrible.
Richard Findley: or who who designed that? have you ever have you ever looked at this? you notes um But, you you know, yeah.
The Chaos Agent: It was good in theory, yeah.
Richard Findley: so but and And often these from these designers, you know, the biggest red flag from designers is when they give you NDA to sign.
The Chaos Agent: Oh yeah.
Richard Findley: If someone gives you an NDA, I've never had an interesting job from someone who's demanded an NDA being signed.
The Chaos Agent: Nope, nope.
Richard Findley: There are always such crap designs and things that, you know... I did one, and it was for a stool. And basically, the stool I ended up making for them... If you said to a 10-year-old, draw me a picture of stool, that was what I was making.
Richard Findley: And I had to sign an NDA to make this thing for him. And it was like, oh, come on. Some people are so like...
The Chaos Agent: I love people.
Richard Findley: I think I've gone off track a bit there, sorry.
The Chaos Agent: I love it. I want to hear more about this doll.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, ah Rich, you brought up a lot of, sorry, I almost forgot all the points I wanted to reply to because you said things like, i'm you you you drew a distinction between creativity and artistic.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm creative, but maybe not artistic. And Eric, you and I were kind of side-eyeing each other during that because because that brings up what's the difference between creativity and being artistic.
The Chaos Agent: Mmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: that's Go ahead. Yeah.
Richard Findley: So my my great grandpa, talking about family legacy, my great grandpa was also watercolor painter.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: And he was very prolific, he did a lot of paintings. And so I grew up in a house that had watercolor paintings on the wall and his paintings, he tried, I don't know the truth of this, but the family sort of story goes, he tried to get into the Royal Academy of Art and they wouldn't let him in because his paintings were too photographic.
Richard Findley: So basically, I grew in a house where art was paintings that looked like the thing that they're supposed to be.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: He'd do like churches and woodland scenes and stuff like that. He comes up on Google. If you Google A.H. Findlay, you'll see the sort stuff he was doing. And... So to me, art was paintings that looked like the thing that they look like.
Richard Findley: That was art.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: And that's all I knew about art, really. And only since becoming a woodturner and having my eyes open to the whole, what's out there, really, have I developed an understanding of actually art is more than just paintings of things that look like what they are.
The Chaos Agent: So are you suggesting that art, or at least in in this definition, and in your maybe emotional attachment to art with a capital A versus creativity with a capital C, art is painting.
The Chaos Agent: It's replicative work, right?
Richard Findley: That's what I grew up thinking. Yeah, definitely.
The Chaos Agent: And creativity is, I have an idea.
Richard Findley: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: going to ask a question. going to see where it goes. Like a mechanic can be creative in the way that they solve a problem, but it's not artistic necessarily.
Richard Findley: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I consider myself a craftsman, not an artist. I mean, some people have said I'm an artist, but I don't really buy it, to be honest.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
The Chaos Agent: Well, those are the people you just charge twice as much next time.
Richard Findley: Yeah. Today, I'm an artist.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We always settled on artists being kind of like, I want to express an emotion or ask and like ah a larger question about either the world or society or who I am. Art is trying to pull at those intellectual and emotional heartstrings, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Whereas like creativity can, I don't know, creativity can inhabit almost any form. Is that where you are now, Rich, with that?
Richard Findley: Yeah, I think so. Probably. Yeah. i mean, ah yeah, I guess the thing, the description I've settled on here is that art would would bring a feeling out in you, I guess.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: Whereas what I'm not really doing that. You don't get that from table legs as far as I'm aware.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I mean, yeah, I mean, you can, but these are overlapping.
The Chaos Agent: Well, well that
Richard Findley: yeah.
Richard Findley: yeah yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But go ahead, Eric.
The Chaos Agent: it's well it's also about storytelling, right? So like the old joke, Rich, you may have heard this, is like, what's the difference between a vase and a vessel? It's about $10,000.
The Chaos Agent: Like it's, you know, that's it. It's like one person is telling you that it's an important object because it expresses X, Y, Z. And I'm not knocking them. I'm very much guilty of this.
The Chaos Agent: i'm like, oh, the reflection on friendship and and material usage. It's a fucking bar.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
The Chaos Agent: Get over yourself, you know? And the other person's like, yeah, it's a vase that holds flowers. Shut the fuck up. no
Richard Findley: but it is's It's quite funny because one other thing, just sort of linking linking these things together.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. So yeah. Yeah, please.
Richard Findley: A lot of people look at the work that I've done. So I make a batch of legs, stair spindles, whatever. The first reaction I get often is, oh, I couldn't do that. I couldn't do the same thing over and over again for hours.
Richard Findley: It's so boring. I'll be so bored doing that. And then I look at some of the more artistic wood turnings. So there's a guy I know, an Irish guy called Pat, who's a fantastic turner. And he, one of the things that he's, he's done is like an erosion series.
Richard Findley: So he's turned what wood turners call a hollow form to your firing. It's an enclosed vase, essentially very thin wall.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: He's then pierced it. And then he's pyrographied it, like burned the texture, giving it texture. And then he's colored it. And this thing, there's more, to be artistic, negative space than there is actual thing left.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah,
Richard Findley: This thing must have taken, the first thing I've looked at and thought was that thing has taken you months to make.
The Chaos Agent: yeah.
Richard Findley: And yet no one said to you, couldn't do that, I'd be bored. Whereas I've looked at it and gone, it's brilliant, but I would be so bored making that.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Findley: LAUGHTER
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. It's so much more of the same process again.
Richard Findley: Yeah, yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Like you're piercing, you're carving, you're carving.
Richard Findley: It's the same thing over and over and over again.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: And I do that.
The Chaos Agent: You're mapping out those spirals on a turned vessel.
Richard Findley: That's what I do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, everyone.
Richard Findley: hopefully that ties it in.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, go ahead.
Richard Findley: I don't know if it does or not.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, we hope that you've enjoyed today's episode on repetition versus novelty. I think what I'm coming away with, and I'd be interested, Rich and Eric, for your summary statement. Mine is that it's not actually not as separate as I thought it was coming to this episode. I thought I was like an extreme novelty seeker.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But then through thinking about this and hearing, Rich, all the things you said, And not so much you, Eric. You didn't really bring much to my table. No, I'm just kidding.
Richard Findley: Ha ha ha ha ha.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm totally kidding. I'm totally joking.
The Chaos Agent: Totally normal for an episode, baby.
Richard Findley: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm totally kidding. I'm totally kidding. What each of you brought is that theres there's a ton of repetition as a woodworker. It's just part of the drill. And the novelty I seek is in the design. Every time I make something, I almost want a new design. Making the same design twice to me is a little bit boring. I do occasionally do it. Like I made 16 sushi boards that were all the same recently. And I've made hundreds and hundreds of stadia boxes. They just...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: They just work. They work for so many. It's so practical to make them. And I'm making some more now. But I realized that this distinction we were drawing at the front of the, or I was drawing at the front of the episode, was not as separate as I thought.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We all do both of these things.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Rich, what's your takeaway from today?
Richard Findley: I've had a lot of fun. I've enjoyed our conversation.
The Chaos Agent: Hmm.
Richard Findley: um I think I wanted to, because obviously I've heard you talk about sort of similar things between yourselves before. And the the thing I felt was in the previous podcast I heard where you of touched on this was that you basically agreed with each other and that was that really.
Richard Findley: And I wanted to bring in that sort of
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Richard Findley: that other perspective maybe. um So it's good that it's worked if it's opened your eyes to that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Richard Findley: And I think, like you said, I think any job, there's an element of boredom. So even like the most exciting, I've heard you talk, Paul, about how you love science that you do.
Richard Findley: There must be elements to that when you're counting bacteria or whatever it is you do that must be really boring
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: For sure. Yeah, for sure.
Richard Findley: And, you know, the guys have just been into space.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Richard Findley: That's massively exciting. But there must have been days and hours where they were just drifting towards the moon. There's the moon. There's the Earth. seen it now. Great. OK, we'll just wait till...
The Chaos Agent: I was just thinking about that exact same thing the other day because I was teaching in Florida on Wednesday when Artemis 2 took off. And then it was, I think it was Sunday that they got to the moon encircled. And it was like, it was all very exciting both then, but I didn't think about them for whatever it was, three and a half days while they're just like floating through fucking space.
Richard Findley: Yeah. Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: It's like in the size a vehicle, the size of a minivan, you know?
Richard Findley: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: like, okay, all right.
Richard Findley: Getting in each other's way, floating by.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Findley: And
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: so as exciting as that is, there would have been boredom in it. So I enjoy the woodturning.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: I enjoy the process. I enjoy everything. ah don't like the dust so much, but you know, it is what it is. But you know, I don't, There's going to be some elements of boredom, but I largely enjoy it more than I am bored.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
Richard Findley: I think if I was more bored than I enjoyed it, I'd be looking for something else to do.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah.
The Chaos Agent: That'd be time to do something else.
Richard Findley: Yeah, yeah, exactly that.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. I think... I have realized that there's so many distractions in my life and in my job.
The Chaos Agent: And one day I'm in Maine or in Florida or in Indianapolis teaching. Another day I'm at my computer editing. Another day I'm at a client's house talking through a commission that like the days where I just...
The Chaos Agent: I kind of get to be bored. I get to go through the milling process and that's all that's happening that day are almost like cherished a little bit at this point. Like there's no distractions. There's no nothing.
The Chaos Agent: I'm just doing the thing I know how to do, which is like cut glue, cut wood up and glue it back together, you know? And, and that's, that's, that's good. It too much of that would be a bad thing, but you know, the right amount is, is a delightful thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, it sounds like um balance, as Rich said, going to be is going to rule the day. Rich, where can people find you online?
Richard Findley: I am on Instagram and YouTube, Richard underscore Findlay. And I've got a fairly good following on Instagram. My YouTube is fairly new.
Richard Findley: only sort of started that at the end of last year, but that's growing. So if you've got an interest in woodturning, then that's a good place to go for some technique stuff, spindle turning bowls, all sorts of things.
Richard Findley: And there's lots more stuff planned. I'm just a bit short on time putting stuff up on the minute, but I will get back to getting some more videos on there. And yeah. yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, Rich, if I could make you feel uncomfortable for just a moment, you are ah such a fantastic, absolutely incredible teacher and woodturner.
The Chaos Agent: Excellent.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I have used your videos and your instruction many times. In fact, Rich also uses a skew that is different, I would say, from typical skews.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Now, listen. Anyone will tell you if you practice enough, you could use any skew. It could be any fucking shape. It's all about you figuring out how to use it. I have a skew that has been the fucking bane of my existence, and I keep struggling and struggling, and I'm still not great with it. I'm okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But Rich uses a different kind of skew, which is a large parting tool. It's like you take a parting tool and maybe double or triple it. like Let's say normally it's like an eighth of an inch. like triple that, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like three eighths or what's the size?
Richard Findley: Yeah, it's 10 mil. So yeah, just a bit over three eighths. Yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, and Rich uses this large parting tool or i as his SKU. And I've been so curious about how that works for me that I bought one, I bought a new SKU.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And now this sucks in a way because I'm like, oh, the tool will make me a better turner.
The Chaos Agent: ah
Richard Findley: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm doing the very thing you're not supposed to do.
The Chaos Agent: a
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But Eric, listen, before you judge, I have put in...
The Chaos Agent: Too late.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I have put in years on the SKU I had, which was like an oval kind of thing. And I just can't get it.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And so I thought, you know what? Maybe Rich's parting tool SKU is just going to just vibe better with my body, the way I control it, the way I see.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Anyway, Rich, I just wanted to talk about that. I just received it just about a month ago and I haven't tried it yet. But next time I turn, i am absolutely keen to see if your tool, if your hybrid tool, and you're the only one I know who uses this like little skew as a
The Chaos Agent: yeah I've never seen that before.
Richard Findley: Yeah, so it's it's quite a traditional sort of British tool. um The French use a tool called a bidan, which is a it's got a single bevel.
The Chaos Agent: Mm. Yep.
Richard Findley: So looks a bit like a mortise chisel, really. The thing about the English and the French is we've always just done things slightly differently, just enough to piss each other off.
The Chaos Agent: You hate each other?
The Chaos Agent: yeah Yep.
Richard Findley: And so the the French use this bidan, the English use a beading and parting tool, which is essentially the same, but it's got two bevels rather than one. But we use it in very much the same way.
The Chaos Agent: Mm.
Richard Findley: So it is quite a traditional tool. My signature one is just a sort of slightly more refined version of it. But yeah, I use it all the time. It's really efficient sort does the job of two tools. um The thing I would say about a skew is skews, I think more than any other tool, are a very kind of personal tool.
Richard Findley: And some people like a big, heavy, wide one. Some people like a narrow one. Some people, yeah know, there's lots of variations. There's enough different skews out there that, you know, we could all have a different one and argue from now until eternity about which one the best one is.
Richard Findley: I just hope that you enjoy using that one. Really?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, well, I'll let you know.
Richard Findley: I've had a lot of feedback to say that it, you know, it has helped people. And I, you know, I hope, ah i hope it it does. I can't guarantee it will. And you won't get your money back if it doesn't. But.
The Chaos Agent: And on that, join us on the after show, friends.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Dick!
Richard Findley: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, well, funny enough, we're going to have an after show about snobbery, ah Rich.
Richard Findley: is
Richard Findley: yeah
The Chaos Agent: Hell yeah. And not having money back guarantees.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How? Rich asked the question, when does having an opinion because you're so experienced turn the corner into being a snob as opposed to I have a very informed opinion and yours is just wrong?
The Chaos Agent: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. Thanks again, Rich. We'll see everyone on the after show.
The Chaos Agent: Yeah, thanks, brother.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: If you wanted the after show, all you have to do is subscribe to our Patreon and we'll see you there. Thanks, everyone.
The Chaos Agent: Okay, bye.
Richard Findley: Bye. bye
