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Episode 65 - Your LIFE is 4000 weeks, WHAT DO YOU DO WITH IT?
1 Plays3 seconds ago
INCREDIBLE Sculptor Spencer Schubert drops in to make the case that good taste is exactly what's stopping you from starting. Your early work is going to suck — that's not a warning, that's a promise. Spencer, Paul, and Erik dig into why the creative struggle never actually gets easier, how to build systems that work on the days your willpower doesn't, and whether gatekeeping is protecting craft or killing it. ALSO, just FYI, Your life is about 4,000 weeks long, what will do do with that time???
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
To browse the Gorilla Glue Wood Filler and Wood Glue (less water) mentioned in today's show: http://gorillatough.com/woodworkingisbs
Spencer's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/esschubertsculpture/
Spencer's Website: https://www.esschubert.com/
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know, every now and then Eric reaches out to me and says, hey, dude, check this guy out. We should have him on the pod. Well, folks, I listened to him against my better judgment. And that's what happened today.
00:00:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, we're going to hurt some feelings today. We're feeling good. This is a rare new episode where we have somebody on as our guest, and I'll tell you who in a second, and Eric and I don't really know him.
00:00:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why? Because Eric thought it'd be a good idea. Anyway, here we are. This is your favorite podcast. Woodworking is bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig Woodworking, and I got my boy across from me.
00:00:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator.
00:00:59
Mr P(ersistent)
Te amo, baby boy. You know what my favorite thing is, though? Every time we do something like this, you you always make sure to tell the audience that this was my idea in case it goes terrible.
00:01:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep. Yep.
00:01:11
Mr P(ersistent)
But then when it works, months later, you'd be like, when we had the idea to bring Spencer on and it was so good, you son of a bitch.
00:01:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:01:18
Spencer
Oh,
00:01:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's the royal way when it works.
00:01:19
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh, yeah, okay. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
00:01:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's Eric's shitty idea when it fucking crashes like a plane out of gas.
00:01:23
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:01:27
Mr P(ersistent)
Ah, you know, sometimes got to try.
00:01:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So Eric saw a reel on Instagram and was very moved by the messaging, the the ah the energy, the excitement that this person brought to their messaging. And it it in fact, the messaging is very consistent with how Eric and I think.
00:01:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so on today's show, we have no... None other than Spencer Schubert, who is an incredible sculptor. I will link Spencer's Instagram in the notes.
00:02:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer, I know we just met like five minutes ago, but I feel like I know you already.
00:02:03
Spencer
Seconds ago, yeah.
00:02:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And thank you for agreeing to be on the show.
00:02:09
Spencer
Well, thanks for having me. This is, ah I can tell, going to be fun and interesting. ah
00:02:14
Mr P(ersistent)
It's going to be one of those things.
00:02:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So,
00:02:15
Mr P(ersistent)
I don't know if both.
00:02:15
Spencer
One of those things.
00:02:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:02:16
Mr P(ersistent)
it's
00:02:17
Spencer
It will be worth watching.
00:02:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no, it's going to be both of those things.
00:02:18
Spencer
ah
00:02:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. So let's, we're going to, we're going to structure this with a few points. So today's show has several directions.
00:02:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh, And Spencer's reel that Eric saw that jogged him will be the first. And then we'll get to ah the the hot topic of gatekeeping as well. So those are two pretty heavy topics. But before we get into those, I would like Spencer.
00:02:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer, can you tell us a bit about you, how you came to be the artist, the incredible sculptor you are?
00:02:55
Spencer
Stop using all the hyperbole.
00:02:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah No, no, really. No, no.
00:02:57
Mr P(ersistent)
It's true, though. It's true.
00:02:58
Spencer
Well, thank you.
00:02:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dude, your sculp your sculpture...
00:02:58
Spencer
i appreciate it.
00:02:59
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah. No, you don't.
00:02:59
Spencer
thats
00:03:00
Mr P(ersistent)
Hey, listen. We love ourselves. You don't have to be false modest, you know?
00:03:02
Spencer
i'll I'll accept the compliment.
00:03:04
Mr P(ersistent)
Mm-hmm.
00:03:04
Spencer
it's not I just, you know, I don't, yeah. It's a hard, yeah. Anyway, thank you.
00:03:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but no No, you're going to listen to me and you're going to squirm.
00:03:07
Spencer
Yes.
00:03:08
Mr P(ersistent)
Mm-hmm.
00:03:08
Spencer
Okay. okay
00:03:10
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:03:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the The quality of your sculpture is world is literally world class.
00:03:12
Spencer
ye
00:03:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You have to own that. Okay, please continue.
00:03:17
Spencer
Thank you.
00:03:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:03:18
Spencer
Well, we'll talk about that with regard to the real, because it relates. I think it's part of the taste conversation is the the way people see us, the way we see ourselves. So, okay, but first I have to introduce myself, right?
00:03:27
Mr P(ersistent)
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
00:03:30
Spencer
um I'm a sculptor. I've always been a sculptor. I just didn't know it until I got to college. um I have fought that a little bit in my adult life as I try to... mean, have you...
00:03:44
Spencer
Have you ever heard the Ben Fold song? I think it's mess. ah he he He describes that song as like when he wrote it, he was like, I've now made so many mistakes and live such a life that I can no longer explain the whole of myself to a new person.
00:03:59
Spencer
And they just have to take me as I am right now.
00:04:01
Mr P(ersistent)
Mmm.
00:04:03
Spencer
And I feel like I have, there's just, the story is so long that it's almost boring at this point. I got a, I, we had a teacher in high school who had a silversmithing class that coincided with the arrival of some six, five transfer students, which ended my basketball career. And so I spent, so I just moved to this silversmithing and got a scholarship to KU. And then I was an 18 year old know-it-all. And then, um,
00:04:28
Spencer
And then after i was in the silversmithing program and they did things differently. So I switched to sculpture and here we are today. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's just like, there's a whole, like there's a billion stories in the middle, but I'm a sculptor.
00:04:35
Mr P(ersistent)
so
00:04:40
Spencer
I make big bronze monuments. um
00:04:42
Mr P(ersistent)
I love that that that you that you were like, yes, I was playing basketball.
00:04:42
Spencer
Most of the days I really love it.
00:04:47
Mr P(ersistent)
And then one day I was like, well, fuck it. I guess I might as well be a silversmith. Like, that's a hard transition, but I love that.
00:04:52
Spencer
Well, Yeah. Well, here, you, you know, you can't, somebody can't order spaghetti on a menu at a restaurant if they don't know it exists. And so the first, the first thing that a like a young person has to do is like become aware of possibilities. Right. And so, I mean, I didn't know that there was a job where people could just make things all day long until I was in that silversmithing class. And I was like, Oh wait. Right. And so, you know,
00:05:17
Spencer
I think when we're young, we're always trying to find the thing we're good enough at that we can be the best ish at it. And I thought that was going to be basketball.
00:05:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm.
00:05:24
Spencer
I'm six, three. My dad was six, five. Everybody thought I was going to be a monster because I've been six, three since I was in eighth grade. ah But I just stopped growing and it's hard to be a center in a, you know, a six, a high school basketball program at six, three.
00:05:37
Mr P(ersistent)
Hey, Jalen Brunson's only six foot two.
00:05:37
Spencer
Right. And so, ah well,
00:05:39
Mr P(ersistent)
You know, he's in the finals right now. So.
00:05:41
Spencer
Yes, athletic ability is also helpful. I just have hustle and grit. Right? And so it just coincided perfectly, the you know the the decline of my basketball career and the feeling it was something that I had always loved, right?
00:05:54
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:05:55
Spencer
Lego. I had a workshop in the basement of my parents' house where I would you know take apart Toys R Us plastic guns and try to make them look cooler and then cover them with black electrical tape. and You know what I mean?
00:06:04
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:06:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah,
00:06:05
Spencer
like like So I've always loved making. I just didn't know it was the thing a thing person could do. So, I mean, that's a good enough story. That's enough about me. Unless you want to ask questions.
00:06:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wait yeah I do. Spencer, when you're making, you said, I love to make and I love to, if I could, I just make all day, every day.
00:06:16
Spencer
Yeah.
00:06:19
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:06:19
Spencer
Yeah.
00:06:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that obviously Jeff Hein, if you're listening, that sounds a lot like you.
00:06:21
Spencer
Yeah.
00:06:24
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:06:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How does it make you feel when you're making? How do you feel in your belly?
00:06:32
Spencer
This is the conundrum of doing the thing that you want to do more than anything else in the world. The time disappears. Why is it that the thing that I want to spend all of my time doing shortens the timeline so much, but it does.
00:06:45
Spencer
That's how I feel. I feel like, oh God, it's five o'clock and it's time for me to go home and be a dad, right?
00:06:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What a gift.
00:06:51
Spencer
That's that's what, it's this it's the so most amazing thing in the world. Now, this the important distinction is that the making is easy. The getting started making and the thinking about what to make is sometimes so hard. I sit in this chair all day long and think I should get up and do something.
00:07:10
Spencer
Right?
00:07:10
Mr P(ersistent)
So, well, can I ask a question about that?
00:07:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:07:12
Mr P(ersistent)
Like, can you can you describe that process?
00:07:12
Spencer
Yeah.
00:07:14
Mr P(ersistent)
Maybe it's not like a a day in the life, but like, give me an overview.
00:07:17
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:07:18
Mr P(ersistent)
If you're working on, you work on commission, you work on spec, what?
00:07:20
Spencer
Yep.
00:07:21
Mr P(ersistent)
On commission.
00:07:21
Spencer
and Commissions almost.
00:07:22
Mr P(ersistent)
Okay.
00:07:22
Spencer
Yeah.
00:07:22
Mr P(ersistent)
so So a client approaches you, an entity approaches you, they want to commission you to to make X.
00:07:23
Spencer
Commissions.
00:07:28
Mr P(ersistent)
um Give me just like ah like a 500-foot view of what that process looks like. is Is the ideation process difficult?
00:07:34
Spencer
Sure.
00:07:36
Mr P(ersistent)
Is the design process difficult? like What is it that that kind of keeps you in that chair?
00:07:41
Spencer
So that's actually all that's pretty easy. i think I said today to ah the folks in my studio, I was like, I feel like I just am waiting for this, for a commission to motivate me, which is makes me a little bit sad because I have all this time to do whatever I want.
00:07:43
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:07:53
Spencer
And I'm waiting for someone else's agency to give me a purpose in life. Right. And that's part of,
00:07:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, wow. Huh.
00:08:00
Spencer
You know, part, yeah, partially that's what I do. It's my job and I love it. I do really love it. um I really love helping people bring the the beginning of their vision into the world and then into bronze and really into the world. Right. um So that part's easy.
00:08:15
Spencer
Right. So the the commission processes, you know, people call, they say, Hey, we want to do this. We're trying to do this thing. And you know, that runs the gamut.
00:08:21
Mr P(ersistent)
Well, well give me give me a specific, if you can.
00:08:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah. Spencer, like our our our audience is a lot of woodworkers, but it it also spans other artists.
00:08:25
Spencer
Sure.
00:08:30
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah, we got painters, we got ceramicists, we've got all kinds of things.
00:08:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Can you just can you give us an idea of like how big is your studio when you get a commission?
00:08:30
Spencer
Yeah.
00:08:35
Spencer
Yeah.
00:08:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What kind of price range are we roughly talking here and what kind of timeline and how difficult it is?
00:08:39
Spencer
Sure. Sure. Yep. Okay. So my studio is 2,300 square feet. There's two offices and a lobby, and then the rest is just a wide open space that is constantly in flux.
00:08:49
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:08:50
Spencer
Typically work on anywhere from three to seven projects at a time. And those projects can either be, um typically the smallest thing is like a one and a half or one and a quarter size bust, portrait bust, right?
00:08:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:09:02
Spencer
So I do all the Hall of Famous Missourians portrait busts. So those are like, you know, 26 inch tall you middle of the tide at the top of the head. So that could, that's the smallest thing. And then, um,
00:09:11
Mr P(ersistent)
did Did you say Hall of Famous Missourians?
00:09:15
Spencer
yes, in the Missouri state Capitol there in the rotunda between the house and the Senate is a huge hall full of busts of famous Missourians.
00:09:23
Mr P(ersistent)
So there's got to be like, what, five or six? of those No, i'm sorry. Just keep carry on. Okay.
00:09:27
Spencer
All right. I won't take offense. There's like 44.
00:09:30
Mr P(ersistent)
okay
00:09:30
Spencer
But yeah. um And so, but then that, the, you know, all the way up to 12 foot tall statues. Jeez. don't even know what town you live in, man. I'm just kidding.
00:09:40
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:09:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, what the fuck?
00:09:41
Mr P(ersistent)
I'm sorry. I just I had to take a shot at Missouri for no reason whatsoever.
00:09:44
Spencer
No, fly over, fly over country.
00:09:46
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:09:47
Spencer
Fly over country is the best kept secret in the United States. So please like, let's keep, yeah.
00:09:51
Mr P(ersistent)
I listen.
00:09:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No.
00:09:52
Mr P(ersistent)
I've spent months in Missouri.
00:09:52
Spencer
Okay.
00:09:53
Mr P(ersistent)
There are parts of it that are beautiful, you know?
00:09:53
Spencer
Okay. yes okay
00:09:55
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:09:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer, please forgive my friend.
00:09:57
Spencer
i will I forgive, I will forgive almost everything.
00:09:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Please. No.
00:09:59
Spencer
um Okay. So, but then also that's, you know, can be up to, you know, 12 foot tall figurative sculptures, right? You know, full figures. And so, um so you asked about, oh, timelines, timeline for, yeah.
00:10:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Timelines and budgets. Like, just give me a rough idea.
00:10:14
Spencer
Yeah.
00:10:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Just to give our our listeners some idea what we're talking.
00:10:18
Spencer
Yeah, no project takes less than 10 months. And if you said you wanted to do a 12 foot tall figure tomorrow, it wouldn't be done for 14 to 16 months, which I think is actually fast for most people.
00:10:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:10:29
Spencer
most Most sculptors, a 12 foot tall figure is you know a couple of years or something.
00:10:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Made of bronze, no doubt.
00:10:35
Spencer
Made in bronze, yep, this is in bronze, yep.
00:10:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:10:37
Spencer
And then budgets, so like you know it's fairly standard to do a seven foot tall figure and those will begin at about $140,000. Portrait bust, 35,000.
00:10:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:10:45
Spencer
portrait bus thirty five thousand
00:10:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Big projects, big budgets.
00:10:50
Spencer
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:10:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Got it.
00:10:51
Mr P(ersistent)
Do you have employees? Are you working solo? Do you have collaborators? What's that situation?
00:10:56
Spencer
Three employees. Well, no, that's not true. a Co-owner with my wife. ah So she's not an employee. And then two employees. So.
00:11:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer, what Dude, you...
00:11:06
Mr P(ersistent)
Man.
00:11:08
Spencer
Living the dream over here, right?
00:11:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
what us
00:11:09
Mr P(ersistent)
And and and how long?
00:11:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
dude you you
00:11:10
Mr P(ersistent)
How long have you been building your studio?
00:11:13
Spencer
So I graduated with a degree in sculpture from the University of Kansas in 2000. And then I spent a couple years convincing myself that there was no way I could make a living making things while touring in a rock band, which was, I'm glad I did it, right?
00:11:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:11:23
Mr P(ersistent)
Mmm. Mmm.
00:11:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What rock band? Which one?
00:11:29
Spencer
ah It was under hill. You've never heard of us. We still, it's my best friends. We called it quits when we all realized it was going to start not being fun. And then we all kind of did, but we still ah practice once a month ah here in the studio, in fact.
00:11:45
Spencer
um So anyway, so, I mean, I've been actively building it since like 2005. So that's, you years. Um, and yeah, I mean, it's true. I mean, I was J Joe ingest living the dream. If you were to pop the, you know, 23 year old sculpture student, uh, into my studio.
00:12:08
Spencer
And I was like, look, dude, mine would have been blown. Like this is, I mean, ah it's a no, you know, some days it's just work, but most days it's like, oh my goodness.
00:12:12
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
00:12:16
Spencer
Oh my goodness. So it's, yeah, I'm very, very, very, very lucky. very very lucky
00:12:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer, I love this for you.
00:12:25
Spencer
Thanks. I love it for me too.
00:12:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:12:26
Spencer
Yeah.
00:12:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, that's really, it's really refreshing to hear such appreciation and excitement. You, you have an energy about you that I can feel.
00:12:32
Spencer
Yeah.
00:12:33
Mr P(ersistent)
Well, and 20 years deep, 25 years deep, you know?
00:12:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:12:36
Spencer
Yeah.
00:12:38
Mr P(ersistent)
Like that's, I feel like, and I don't know, i don't know what it's like in the sculpture world or in the fine art world, but I feel like so many people in the woodworking space, as time goes by, become more and more just tired, jaded, whatever the thing is that you want to call it, you know?
00:12:38
Spencer
yeah
00:12:55
Spencer
Yeah.
00:12:56
Mr P(ersistent)
And and um I mean, I resonated with what you were saying earlier about like,
00:12:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:13:02
Mr P(ersistent)
you you didn't know that there was a thing you you didn't know that you could make things for a living like that wasn't an option.
00:13:07
Spencer
Yeah. Right.
00:13:09
Mr P(ersistent)
um
00:13:09
Spencer
Right.
00:13:10
Mr P(ersistent)
I grew up in the trades like I grew up building houses, I grew up roofing, you know, plumbing, electrical, all the things.
00:13:13
Spencer
Mm
00:13:15
Mr P(ersistent)
um And then when I found furniture, it was a it was a it sounds like a similar moment in epiphany of like, holy shit, you can build
00:13:21
Spencer
hmm. Yeah.
00:13:25
Mr P(ersistent)
You can build things out of wood, but also have some kind of soul or like expression or like artistic ah drive behind it.
00:13:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:13:28
Spencer
Yeah.
00:13:31
Spencer
Sure.
00:13:34
Mr P(ersistent)
that was That was the thing that sold me on furniture. And then I just dove headlong into it and I figured I would figure it all out as time went by. And as I have now been in it for whatever it's been, i don't know, probably...
00:13:42
Spencer
Yeah.
00:13:48
Mr P(ersistent)
15 years, 18 years since since that moment happened. um You meet so many people that have been doing it for 20, 30, 40 years.
00:13:55
Spencer
Hmm.
00:13:58
Mr P(ersistent)
And they're just like, I just build fucking cabinets all day because that's what pays the bills. And I get tired of squares, but I got a fucking family to feed.
00:14:03
Spencer
Yeah.
00:14:06
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:14:07
Spencer
Okay. So first of all, I'm jealous that you meet lots of people in your, in your, uh, because I don't meet, I mean, I know a few sculptors, and but they're there.
00:14:13
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:14:14
Spencer
It's a rare-ish thing. um
00:14:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:14:18
Spencer
but, but
00:14:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, we that's new to us, by the way, because there's a lot of woodworkers out there, but I guess not a lot of sculptors.
00:14:20
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:14:23
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
00:14:24
Spencer
yeah.
00:14:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Please continue.
00:14:25
Spencer
Well, yeah, well, when I'm, watching if I see us another sculptor studio, like pictures, I'm like, i like, zoom in. I'm like, okay, how do they do that? You know? Cause it's like, and what, you know, the gatekeeping conversation will include, you know, the, the, there are some good things about that.
00:14:32
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:14:38
Spencer
Cause I should should have known some of this stuff, but, but it's hard to um push the envelope. And that's the interesting thing, right?
00:14:50
Spencer
It's like hard to keep doing the, the growth that is so easy at the beginning. And so that's why people, I feel like, so you said 20, 25 years, I'm just making cabinets.
00:15:03
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
00:15:04
Spencer
You have to be careful what you wish for a little bit. And I mean, like, you don' guys know who Seth Godin is?
00:15:09
Mr P(ersistent)
No.
00:15:10
Spencer
Oh gosh. if He's like, if you Google him, it's Seth. he he's He's been on the internet for ages. He's like a just a ah think fluencer, right?
00:15:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:15:16
Spencer
Or whatever.
00:15:17
Mr P(ersistent)
Okay.
00:15:17
Spencer
um But he'll, he says, you know, if if the reason you're doing it is for the money, you shouldn't be doing it. But that's easy to say when you when you're not worried about paying the mortgage and buying groceries and stuff.
00:15:25
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
00:15:29
Spencer
And like, so, you know, there are days where I'm like, oh, I can't believe I've created this commissions monster that I have to keep feeding, which is very similar to the oh, I can't believe I created this cabinet shop monster whatever.
00:15:39
Mr P(ersistent)
Sure. Yeah. You get more of the work that you do.
00:15:40
Spencer
Right.
00:15:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:15:42
Spencer
Yeah. And so it like but but also you kind of lose that freshness and lose that spark. without rekindling it as you get into things and like you, it's hard to do all the commission work and then also keep working on the things that are interesting to you.
00:15:49
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:15:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer, what rekindles your spark?
00:16:02
Spencer
That's a great question that I don't know that I have an answer to. i mean, i um,
00:16:10
Spencer
That's hard because I'm probably as guilty of the, I'm close to being the 25 year journeyman who's like, oh, these commissions are gonna kill me one day.
00:16:18
Mr P(ersistent)
The grizzled vet. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:20
Spencer
You what mean? But I mean, here's the thing. that's Okay, this is funny. So we hired a content creator ah almost a year ago too, because I knew that the the attention economy was the future of the economy.
00:16:26
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:16:32
Spencer
And I knew I wasn't gonna edit and post the videos.
00:16:33
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:16:35
Spencer
And so i was like, let's just try this experiment. So what I thought I was going to get when we did that was all of the content that you saw, that you're seeing, that we're putting out there. Stuff I really believe in getting broadcast out to the world. I thought that would be the best part of that. You know what the best part of it is? The best part of it is he keeps expecting me to make cool shit so that he can film it.
00:16:58
Spencer
It's seriously the truth because I don't really have as much of the luxury luxury of just sitting around for a week in between commissions doing nothing because I can't get motivated to work on this idea I had because starting things is hard.
00:17:10
Spencer
Right.
00:17:10
Mr P(ersistent)
Sure.
00:17:11
Spencer
But he's sitting over there in that chair being like, dude, what are we filming today? And so I'm like, well, I might as well get up and do the thing.
00:17:15
Mr P(ersistent)
So, so is, yeah is the filming of the thing motivating? Is the business aspect of continuing to build your presence motivating? Like what is it about having a camera person in front of you that motivates you to build cool shit?
00:17:29
Spencer
we're all stupid humans who are weak-willed.
00:17:31
Mr P(ersistent)
Can confirm.
00:17:32
Spencer
And if you rely, and if you, re yeah, if you rely on your willpower, that's a t-shirt, that's a t-shirt.
00:17:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:17:33
Mr P(ersistent)
Can confirm. Yep.
00:17:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's the t-shirt. Eric, that's today's t-shirt.
00:17:38
Spencer
All right, i'll I want to,
00:17:39
Mr P(ersistent)
Yep. Yep.
00:17:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're all stupid humans who are weak-willed.
00:17:40
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah. Hmm.
00:17:42
Spencer
We will. I want to wear one, too.
00:17:44
Mr P(ersistent)
yeah
00:17:44
Spencer
i ah because But here's the thing. And if you rely on your willpower to get the work done, you will fail enough times you'll feel bad about yourself. And so probably I mean, this is true with like, you know, diet and exercise and all other kind of things that need to be done regularly. ah Create us on a day that you're feeling strong.
00:18:02
Spencer
create a system that will account for the days where you feel weak. And so I didn't realize I was creating a system that was like, I was creating a hungry mouth for creative content.
00:18:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh,
00:18:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that's really good.
00:18:15
Mr P(ersistent)
that's it that's such an empathetic way to phrase it though too like the like on the days that you are capable of of doing the hard thing set yourself up for success on the days that you don't have the energy or the willpower to do that that is that's like self that's self-knowledge at its finest right there
00:18:29
Spencer
I wish I could,
00:18:33
Spencer
But I wish I could take credit for it, but it is freaking ancient wisdom, right? It's like like we we it's like the Greeks and the Romans figured this crap out and then we lost it in the Middle Ages or the medieval times.
00:18:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wait, Spencer, Spencer, for the sake of our listeners, can you say that again? On your the days you're feeling strong, make put a system in place to help you on the days you're feeling weak?
00:18:53
Spencer
Yeah, because like, look, okay, so that that calendar they're with the red dots behind me, right?
00:18:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:18:58
Spencer
It's just ah it's just a year-long calendar with red check marks.
00:18:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:19:01
Spencer
ah
00:19:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:19:02
Spencer
those like the The days get checked off as we go towards projects. This is Jerry Seinfeld, right? ah Writing. You are a better writer if you write every day.
00:19:12
Spencer
Don't break the chain, right? Create a system where it's like, you don't have to be great today.
00:19:13
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:19:15
Spencer
you don't have to be inspired today. All you have to do today is write. And if and if you put you know a green check mark up there, it means you didn't write today.
00:19:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mmm.
00:19:21
Spencer
and The goal is to not break the chain. I just feel like... um Well, you got me on a soapbox here.
00:19:27
Mr P(ersistent)
No, please.
00:19:27
Spencer
We're just talking about hoodie. Hoodie is my content guy. He's spectacular. That's a, okay. That's, uh, it's difficult to bring people into the studio because it is mine. I built it. It is my, it is my favorite place in the world other than with my family. And so I hired him for his vibe.
00:19:45
Spencer
yeah he you know And so, ah sorry, I just got off the track on Hoodie. But that was, anyway, he's spectacular and wonderful. And the fact that we're friends makes the stuff good, I feel like, as opposed to, yeah.
00:19:57
Spencer
Go ahead.
00:19:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm going bring you back, Spencer, like I do to Eric, which is your point about on the days I feel strong, I put system in place to help me for the days I feel weak.
00:20:00
Spencer
Yeah, do it. Where was I? ah Yeah.
00:20:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That is way I just want to say, like, I've never thought about that ever.
00:20:08
Spencer
Yeah.
00:20:11
Mr P(ersistent)
That's a profound thing.
00:20:13
Spencer
Well, but it's,
00:20:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's fairly. go ahead.
00:20:15
Spencer
Well, i thank you. I'll take credit for the putting it in those you know witty words, but it's if you were gonna try to get your weight under control, the days that are gonna be hard are the days where you don't have food prepared. If you have a whole bunch of frozen burritos that are perfectly available to you in the in the freezer, it's easy to so to keep ah the the commitments you said you you you kept you the commitments that you wanted to keep to yourself. It's easy when you've prepared.
00:20:41
Spencer
It's hard when you're not prepared, right?
00:20:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How do you do that as an artist? Like I get the the the the metaphor for food and weight loss.
00:20:48
Spencer
Yeah.
00:20:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How do you do that as as an artist?
00:20:51
Spencer
Well, so I've always struggled with that, honestly. And the commissions are a way to make work get done because I'm not going to, if I tell you it's going to be done on Monday, it's going to be done the day before.
00:21:01
Spencer
Right. And so that the commissions are a way that I've done that. And I've always kind of struggled to make time and priority for the work that I want to do myself, because I think we all struggle for that.
00:21:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you, so, the sorry, I realize we're jumping topics here.
00:21:16
Spencer
Yep.
00:21:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You said the commissions keep me on on task is what I'm understanding.
00:21:18
Spencer
Sure.
00:21:21
Spencer
Yeah.
00:21:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then, so it's the pressure of a commission on time, on budget, on scale, right?
00:21:27
Spencer
Yeah.
00:21:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You get that done.
00:21:28
Spencer
Yeah.
00:21:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then in between commissions, like whatever that time is, do you have lull or a difficulty forcing yourself because the pressure's off?
00:21:33
Spencer
Right.
00:21:38
Spencer
yeah ah Yes. And so, you know, the creative, the creative ah trough, right? Like whenever you are done with a thing and you're like, ah, what's this life for?
00:21:49
Spencer
Do you know what i mean? Like, like I've, I've kind of spent my creative energy and like, and that's inevitable.
00:21:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:21:54
Spencer
Right. And my wife,
00:21:55
Mr P(ersistent)
Jesus, nail me to the cross, brother. Why? Come on.
00:21:57
Spencer
No, my wife realized early on that I would come home after finishing a commission. and It would just for like three or four days just be not fun to be around. And so she was like, because it's hard to start a new thing.
00:22:05
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:22:08
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:22:08
Spencer
And so the trick there is like having a new thing already started so that you could just.
00:22:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:22:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you're picking up from, yeah.
00:22:15
Spencer
Yeah, you you just cut the bottom of the trough off because you got it, you know, but the all of that started. with the conversation of I didn't realize when I hired hoodie, the content creator, that the biggest benefit was that I was like, it was like my own house, my own in-house commissioner.
00:22:30
Spencer
He needs this work done so that we can post videos.
00:22:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see.
00:22:34
Spencer
So that's what I was saying with that whole thing is that like, I didn't even realize it.
00:22:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it changes the lulls. He changes the lulls because he needs content.
00:22:39
Spencer
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And cause I want to sculpt all day long.
00:22:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a
00:22:44
Spencer
Right. It's just some days the, the, what to sculpt or, I mean, it's hard. It's like, Oh, it's hard to do it. I just, I got to start that thing is hard. And what if it sucks? It's probably going to suck.
00:22:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a...
00:22:53
Spencer
Right. I mean, that's the B that's. And so, but like, you know, they say about Saturday night live.
00:22:57
Mr P(ersistent)
I think every single one of our listeners will relate to that feeling that you just emoted right there.
00:23:01
Spencer
That's the truth.
00:23:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Spencer, dude, I love the way you speak about the artistic process because I feel like it's so relatable.
00:23:03
Spencer
Yes.
00:23:03
Mr P(ersistent)
Every one of them. Hmm.
00:23:10
Spencer
Yeah, well well, okay, about about the process, it it is, and we are all creators.
00:23:10
Mr P(ersistent)
Sorry, but you were, you were going to say SNL. go ahead.
00:23:16
Spencer
It's just some of us forgot, right? And like that is an existential pain that ah people are feeling and they don't even know it.
00:23:18
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:23:23
Spencer
and And so now I'm just a maker who's trying to do the thing all day long and it's hard. Because there's all sorts of judgment, but SNL goes live, not because it's ready, but because it's midnight on Saturday night, right? And so that is what, by hiring Hoodie, that's what I did. I'm like, we're sculpting today, period.
00:23:44
Spencer
And at first it really messed with me because, sorry, I am nothing if not earnest because, well, here's the thing.
00:23:44
Mr P(ersistent)
Man.
00:23:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dude, I love your energy. I love this.
00:23:49
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:23:55
Spencer
I sit quietly, for two decades sculpting with, you know, songs I've heard a billion times in my ears thinking about this shit all day long.
00:24:05
Spencer
Right. And so like, I have strong opinions about it and I feel like it's, I feel like it's, ah it's not easy, but it's not complicated.
00:24:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you.
00:24:14
Mr P(ersistent)
Well, let me ask you this then. So so how long have you been how long has Hoodie been a part of your your studio? How long youve been investing in social media?
00:24:22
Spencer
One year.
00:24:23
Mr P(ersistent)
Okay, fantastic.
00:24:24
Spencer
um mean, not quite one year, like, like August of last year. So, so yeah.
00:24:28
Mr P(ersistent)
Okay, well, the reason I ask that is because you have had two decades to sit and think, develop ideas, um take in information, process information slowly, develop your own thoughts, and in understand which components are simply worth regurgitating, which ones are worth processing.
00:24:35
Spencer
100%. Yes.
00:24:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:24:46
Spencer
Totally.
00:24:48
Mr P(ersistent)
Whereas I think a lot of content creators, whether in the art space, the woodworking space, whatever it is, just start making shit without the in making objects and making content without having two decades of thought behind it.
00:24:48
Spencer
Totally.
00:25:03
Mr P(ersistent)
And then they run out of ideas very quickly. And they're like, well, and then they just start chasing trends and they're like why are numbers going down?
00:25:05
Spencer
Totally.
00:25:08
Spencer
Yeah.
00:25:09
Mr P(ersistent)
You know what I'm getting at? Like you you have an advantage there of like, you know what you're talking about and you have thought behind it.
00:25:11
Spencer
Yeah. 100%. Mm-hmm.
00:25:17
Mr P(ersistent)
And so then you can come out with the reels like the one that I sent Paul, which was which i like part of what moved me about it.
00:25:17
Spencer
who
00:25:23
Spencer
Yeah, for sure.
00:25:28
Mr P(ersistent)
was, uh, I think it's very clear that you speak earnestly. Like you you're, it doesn't seem to be like a persona. Right. And I can, I can, I can sniff that from a mile away.
00:25:34
Spencer
I'm not faking it. Yeah.
00:25:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm...
00:25:37
Spencer
Sure, sure.
00:25:37
Mr P(ersistent)
Um, but then like, as soon as I saw that real come up in, in my for you page or whatever it's called on Instagram, um, i clicked on your profile and I was like, okay, this guy's got the fucking goods behind like the, the, the ability to articulate with enthusiasm.
00:25:52
Mr P(ersistent)
And that's what struck me about it.
00:25:53
Spencer
Thank you.
00:25:55
Mr P(ersistent)
Um, um, So I don't have a question at the end of that statement. I was just talking, but Paul, I'm sure it does.
00:26:02
Spencer
was a great segue.
00:26:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i
00:26:02
Mr P(ersistent)
I was, i was, i was setting Paul up for the, i was, I was ready for the assist to Paul.
00:26:05
Spencer
Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:07
Mr P(ersistent)
Go for it.
00:26:08
Spencer
Yeah.
00:26:08
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:26:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love when Eric spins out. I love it. Y'all just saw a classic Eric spin out.
00:26:13
Spencer
That's great.
00:26:13
Mr P(ersistent)
ah ah
00:26:16
Spencer
That's great.
00:26:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So the reel, it starts, I'm going to summarize it, Spencer.
00:26:19
Spencer
Yes.
00:26:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dare I summarize your own reel to you?
00:26:22
Spencer
Yeah.
00:26:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I would love to hear you elaborate and react.
00:26:25
Spencer
I've already forgotten it, so go ahead.
00:26:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So I'll start like this.
00:26:28
Spencer
Okay.
00:26:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The reel started like Do you have good taste? Do you think you have good taste? If you have good taste, then you know that the early stuff you make in your career is crap because it takes the better part of a decade to get good at craft.
00:26:42
Spencer
Mm-hmm. Yep.
00:26:48
Spencer
Yes.
00:26:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So many people don't want to feel the sting of sucking, right?
00:26:55
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:26:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Especially people with good taste. So they postpone starting or they put off or avoid because they're arbiters of good taste and they know they're not going to be good at the thing when they start.
00:26:58
Spencer
Because they know!
00:27:09
Spencer
Yeah.
00:27:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But your advice, Spencer, was the only way to get to version 56 that doesn't suck is by biting the bullet and starting with version one, which may suck and just get started.
00:27:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You have the only way through it is through it.
00:27:24
Spencer
Yeah.
00:27:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Start now.
00:27:28
Spencer
This is an important point of this. You just said may suck. It's going to suck. And in fact, if you don't think it sucks, then you probably don't have good taste.
00:27:33
Mr P(ersistent)
Mmm.
00:27:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:27:33
Mr P(ersistent)
Mmm. Mmm.
00:27:38
Spencer
And this is where people get stuck making the same work over and over and over again because they aren't honest enough with themselves to say what I'm making sucks. And so the so so if you're a maker, a new maker, a college student or or a 70 year old just starting to paint, And you are looking at what you've spent hours and hours on and you're thinking this kind of sucks.
00:27:59
Spencer
Congratulations. That's the first step to actually being good. Right. And so it is so hard to make work and everyone.
00:28:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:28:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Look, go ahead.
00:28:08
Spencer
go ahead.
00:28:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, everyone.
00:28:09
Spencer
and well Everyone cares about the work they're putting out into the world and everyone knows it's going to get judged. And so it's hard.
00:28:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I would pause and say to every listener listening, what whether whatever field you're in are you putting off things because you don't want to feel the sting of sucking?
00:28:24
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:28:28
Spencer
Yes, absolutely they are. Because I'm doing it in my in my own life. I've got this.
00:28:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
where We're all doing it, Spencer.
00:28:35
Spencer
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're all doing it.
00:28:38
Mr P(ersistent)
Can I put a small asterisk on there? And it's not a disagreeing asterisk, but it's a point I want to expand on the the like almost a throwaway sentence at the very end of it. You said you're you're making shitty work. Congratulations. You're on the path. But they're afraid to make shitty work because you put it out into the world and it's going to get judged.
00:28:58
Spencer
h
00:28:58
Mr P(ersistent)
Right. That I just want to emphasize to folks that even in the world of social media and in an attention economy, it is OK to make shit for your own edification.
00:29:12
Mr P(ersistent)
You don't have to put it out into the world. You don't have to make a real.
00:29:16
Spencer
Yes.
00:29:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
hmm hmm hmm
00:29:17
Mr P(ersistent)
You don't have to post it on social media.
00:29:18
Spencer
Yes. 100%.
00:29:19
Mr P(ersistent)
You can just.
00:29:19
Spencer
Totally.
00:29:21
Mr P(ersistent)
Fucking make shit. You don't even have to show your spouse, right? Like fucking leave it in the garage, throw it in the burn pile.
00:29:24
Spencer
Totally.
00:29:27
Mr P(ersistent)
Wait until however many iterations down the road until you're ready to be like, okay, it doesn't suck as much as the last one. But hopefully, hey, I'm going to say this.
00:29:35
Spencer
Yeah.
00:29:37
Mr P(ersistent)
Hopefully you have a partner that sees iteration one and is like, I know you could do better, but also I see where you're at. the best The best critique is the type of person who goes, I can see the effort you put in and I can see where you're going with it.
00:29:44
Spencer
Yes.
00:29:52
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:29:52
Mr P(ersistent)
Not somebody who is like, that's dog shit. Don't ever bring that into my house. But also not somebody who's like, everything you make is wonderful and you can never do anything terrible.
00:29:59
Spencer
Exactly.
00:30:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I got one of those.
00:30:01
Spencer
Exactly.
00:30:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Vicky is that.
00:30:04
Spencer
Exactly.
00:30:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Vicky's like, oh my God, that's so good. And I know it's a piece of I know it's fucking dog shit, but she's such a sweetheart.
00:30:06
Mr P(ersistent)
yeah
00:30:08
Spencer
ah
00:30:09
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:30:09
Spencer
yeah
00:30:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She's like, oh my God, that's so good, honey. Keep it up.
00:30:13
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
00:30:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:30:14
Spencer
Yeah.
00:30:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:30:14
Spencer
you So you to those people, you have to say, thank you so much and immediately forget what they said.
00:30:14
Mr P(ersistent)
yeah
00:30:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:30:18
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:19
Spencer
Because there's probably only a few people who who you have ah enough familiarity with who can ah not hurt your feelings while telling you the truth about something that you love.
00:30:26
Mr P(ersistent)
Mm hmm.
00:30:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:30:28
Spencer
None of this, again, don't have anything original to say.
00:30:28
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
00:30:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah yeah
00:30:32
Spencer
This is stolen directly from Ira Glass of This American Life. Right?
00:30:37
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah,
00:30:38
Spencer
He's just talking about radio. Have you guys seen his YouTube video?
00:30:41
Mr P(ersistent)
yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fucking phenomenal.
00:30:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, no.
00:30:42
Spencer
And that's
00:30:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer, tell us, tell us.
00:30:44
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh,
00:30:45
Spencer
Yeah, so, well, he's just, you know who Ira Glass is, he's probably like the gold standard of of of storytelling on the radio, and then, you know, the kind of podcasting, et cetera, et cetera.
00:30:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Don't assume the listenership knows any of this.
00:30:53
Mr P(ersistent)
Mm-hmm.
00:30:56
Spencer
And he says, he's talking ah about himself and then two modern versions of himself, a young person who wants to get into radio and they see the good things that people are making and they wanna make that work and they know it's awesome because of this, this, and this, and then they make some work and it's just crap.
00:31:11
Spencer
And they have the enough self-awareness to know that this is not good. And most people stop there. And that is a damn tragedy because the universe needs, I firmly believe that the universe, and this will go into gatekeeping, the universe firmly needs every single one of us to be pushing ourselves to make the most awesome, beautiful, wonderful, weird things that we possibly can. And to do anything less is to like shirk your duty as a divine being.
00:31:42
Spencer
And so it's, ah it's, yeah it' so it's, and I am, I'm full of like accountability.
00:31:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
o
00:31:47
Spencer
It really helps me. I mean, you know I'm a young, I'm a jock who grew up and became an artist. Right. So like, I'm going to die on this court before I'm the slowest sprinter. Right. And so I kind of need this hard love a little bit, but like, you're letting me down.
00:32:00
Spencer
If you stop working on that project that could one day break my heart with its beauty, you're letting me down and don't let me down. Right. And so if you need to externalize,
00:32:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Spencer.
00:32:11
Spencer
The, um, if you need to externalize the agency, then take the hard love and don't let me down.
00:32:11
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh, did he froze mid rant?
00:32:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I don't know. He may come back.
00:32:16
Mr P(ersistent)
All right. Well, you we're breaking his heart.
00:32:17
Spencer
i don't know. That's how I feel.
00:32:20
Mr P(ersistent)
If you let him down mid beauty.
00:32:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He may Eric. He may be talking during this.
00:32:24
Mr P(ersistent)
He I guarantee you he is.
00:32:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm going hit pause.
00:32:27
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah, please.
00:32:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm to hit pause.
00:32:29
Spencer
And so think if you need that tough love, externalize it. but don't Don't worry about yeah letting yourself down, right?
00:32:34
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:32:35
Spencer
You can't let the rest of humanity down. You need to put this beautiful workout into the world for us. Stop failing us. Hello.
00:32:43
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh, hey, that's Vicky. ah That's a video feed special for the patrons.
00:32:48
Spencer
ah So anyway, that's it.
00:32:49
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:32:51
Spencer
That's all I, I just feel like, um, You know, you got to keep going, even though it's hard. And I promise you, it'll only keep being hard.
00:32:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so So Spencer, Spencer, wait, wait, wait.
00:33:00
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh, okay. That's fair though. That's fair.
00:33:02
Spencer
Okay.
00:33:02
Mr P(ersistent)
Can we, can we, can we sit with that for just a second?
00:33:02
Spencer
Yeah.
00:33:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:33:04
Mr P(ersistent)
Because it doesn't get easier. I think that's the thing that, that makes so many people jaded and tired is they think like, okay, at the beginning it's hard, but I have the energy and the motivation.
00:33:07
Spencer
No. Yeah.
00:33:14
Mr P(ersistent)
And then over time, it's going to get easier because I master my craft.
00:33:15
Spencer
Right.
00:33:18
Mr P(ersistent)
But what happens is your standards change. Like at the beginning, you go, my goal is to cut a dovetail. And then you've got a good dovetail and you go like, great. Like if as a sculptor, your goal is to whatever.
00:33:29
Mr P(ersistent)
You you make ah a figurative piece that looks like the fucking thing that you're you're sculpting. And you go, great.
00:33:34
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:33:34
Mr P(ersistent)
Okay, I've mastered my craft. And then you sit back and you go like, well, how do i make it interesting though?
00:33:40
Spencer
Yeah.
00:33:40
Mr P(ersistent)
Like your your goals change. And I think the fatigue sets in, at least for me and so many of the people I've talked to over time, like the the the difficulty is in maintaining the motivation.
00:33:43
Spencer
Yeah.
00:33:54
Mr P(ersistent)
And you touched on that with the commissions. And the reason that interests me is because my motivation comes from the exact opposite end of the spectrum motive, like commissions demotivate me.
00:34:03
Spencer
Okay.
00:34:06
Mr P(ersistent)
I find that the pressure of working with a client getting it done on time. Like I take commissions and I do them because I have bills to pay. But that is a thing that I do because I have bills to pay, not because I want to do them.
00:34:18
Mr P(ersistent)
And as soon as there's a there's a deadline of commission, there's a thing that somebody else wants.
00:34:18
Spencer
Sure.
00:34:23
Mr P(ersistent)
Like my gut instinct is to be like, oh, I don't want to make what you want. i want to make what I want.
00:34:29
Spencer
It's the rebel in you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:30
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah, yeah, it is. It really is like that. Well, fuck you. I don't need to do that. You know, so it's it becomes difficult. And I thought it would get easier over time because now I know what I'm doing.
00:34:41
Mr P(ersistent)
I know how to build shit. I've built a million things.
00:34:43
Spencer
who
00:34:44
Mr P(ersistent)
And ah now when the commission comes in, it's more like, OK, I think I can find the the energy to make this thing, you know?
00:34:52
Spencer
hu
00:34:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But you move you keep moving the bar.
00:34:54
Spencer
So you stay, so you can stay motivated. if If I told you, you just could make whatever here's, here's a, you know, I don't know, $5 million. dollars You can live off whatever you make only your stuff.
00:35:04
Spencer
Then you would be busy all day long, every day for the next 20 Yeah.
00:35:06
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh, dude, dude, I have thought of it like in pie in the sky world. I've thought about this. If I i don't play the lottery, but i've I've constantly thought if I did and I won $10 million, dollars I would put it into an account that paid out whatever 1% every year.
00:35:24
Mr P(ersistent)
And I would take that $100,000 and I would live the rest of my life in fucking bliss because I could just like whatever i would just make.
00:35:25
Spencer
h Yeah.
00:35:32
Mr P(ersistent)
And obviously, this is a a pretend scenario because life is life.
00:35:33
Spencer
Yeah. Sure.
00:35:35
Mr P(ersistent)
But I would just make whatever the fuck I wanted. And then like the the motivation comes from the like, okay, what interesting question do I have to ask? And it wouldn't necessitate putting it on the internet.
00:35:47
Mr P(ersistent)
It wouldn't necessitate like being in front of an audience.
00:35:48
Spencer
Sure.
00:35:49
Mr P(ersistent)
It would just be like, is this a thing I want to share? Or is this a thing that I find interesting to make for myself?
00:35:55
Spencer
I'm a little jealous of that, that the internal fire to do, cause you know what i mean? Like, because I need, I think I need the commission structure to keep me rolling down the line.
00:35:59
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:36:04
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:36:05
Spencer
Um, But I think you were, originally, were talking about the taste thing and you were talking about, does it get easier? The goalposts always move.
00:36:15
Spencer
That's why I feel a little bit suspicious of the fact that if I so provided for all of your daily needs, that you would be able to fill the next 20 years with eight hours a day of spontaneous creativity only because I feel like
00:36:16
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
00:36:30
Spencer
you have to constantly keep re engaging with the the beginner's mind. And that is hard. And that's what the commissions do that for me a little bit. Cause it's like, it's always a new thing. I have to take what they're, what they're wanting and like figure out how to interpret in a way that makes them happy.
00:36:45
Spencer
So I just, the, the, the, how this relates to the taste conversation is that it always is hard. It stays hard because your taste gets better, your skill gets better. Now, cause early at the beginning of the podcast, you said I was a great sculptor or some such, right? And I was immediately like, ah and that's because I now know what a great sculptor is and it's a person who's better than me.
00:37:10
Mr P(ersistent)
Well, sure.
00:37:10
Spencer
Right? And back then i knew what a great sculptor was and it was a person who wasn't as good as me. Right? Because it's like boop, boop, boop, boop. boop Right? So, um, yeah.
00:37:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I have a question. i have a bigger, ah like like, let's let's abstract ah ten like 10,000 feet higher and look at what we're really saying.
00:37:26
Spencer
hu
00:37:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're really saying that, and I've thought a lot about this topic, as you get better at something or as you make more money or as you become more successful or whatever, as you get better, you move the bar.
00:37:43
Spencer
yeah yep.
00:37:44
Mr P(ersistent)
Sure.
00:37:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now as artists, that's pretty clear. Oh, I'm better at this, so I move the bar and it's gotta be better and better and better and better all the time. That takes multiple forms. That doesn't even have to be with art. As I earn more money, I buy a bigger house, I buy nicer cars.
00:37:59
Mr P(ersistent)
sure
00:38:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's like an analogous, I mean, perhaps.
00:38:04
Spencer
They're different. They're different. what
00:38:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They're different. Okay, ah as I become a better attorney, I take on more high profile cases
00:38:07
Spencer
Yeah.
00:38:12
Spencer
Sure. Yeah.
00:38:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
bigger, bigger budgets, higher profile.
00:38:18
Spencer
Higher stakes.
00:38:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
As I climb the ladder of my corporate job, I become a direct associate director, director, vice president, vice, know, CFO or CEO, right?
00:38:31
Spencer
Sure.
00:38:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah you You're upping the ante every time.
00:38:36
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:38:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
As people do that, I would call that an achiever mentality.
00:38:43
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:38:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's pushers. There's people who are never satisfied. No matter what you achieve, I'm not satisfied. There's always better. We can do better.
00:38:52
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:38:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, let's say you achieve something monumental. You sit on it for an hour. You feel good for a one fucking hour. And you're like, okay, what's next? That's the achiever mentality.
00:39:00
Spencer
huh
00:39:01
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
00:39:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah let's ah Let's contrast that to the contentment mentality, which is I'm happy where I am.
00:39:06
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:39:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And my life is about feeling contented. I have no interest in climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing forever. Because eventually you're just racing towards your death. And sure, you may go higher than the next person in terms of your skill level. But were you happier on the journey? So it's like, are you a pusher and an achiever?
00:39:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or are you more about ah finding contentment where you are? appreciating and gratitude for where you are. that This, this to me, i always think about this because my wife is a contentment person.
00:39:43
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:39:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She doesn't have to push. She doesn't have to be the best.
00:39:45
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:39:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She's not looking for the next oh amazing step. I'm going to be this amazing, whatever at whatever.
00:39:52
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:39:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She's just like, I had a great day. I went for a run. I did two miles. I'm capable of 12. I did half marathon, but I'm not looking to push.
00:40:01
Spencer
ha
00:40:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I just did two. And it was delightful.
00:40:04
Mr P(ersistent)
And this is why we fucking stan Vicky.
00:40:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And, and, and then, and then there's me. I'm a pusher. Nothing's ever enough. I'm only happy for one fucking second. And I'm like, where's the next goal? So I see these as two kind of opposing, um, edges of a continuum Do you feel like there's like, obviously you two are at one end of that continuum. You're pushers, you're achievers. You want more and more and more all the time.
00:40:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't mean more resource. What I mean is you, you, you, you're asking more of yourself as an artist all the time.
00:40:36
Spencer
Right. No, I know.
00:40:36
Mr P(ersistent)
sure share Sure, sure, sure, sure.
00:40:36
Spencer
Yeah.
00:40:37
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
00:40:39
Spencer
Push the um envelope.
00:40:40
Mr P(ersistent)
Mm-hmm.
00:40:40
Spencer
Yes. Yes.
00:40:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Push let's push. Right.
00:40:43
Spencer
Yeah.
00:40:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is that, does that bring the most fulfillment and happiness to your life?
00:40:53
Spencer
Okay, can you sit on the porch with your wife and have four cups of coffee on a beautiful morning quietly and just love it?
00:41:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
100%. Yes. Okay. Okay.
00:41:01
Spencer
So I would say that there's balance there.
00:41:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yes
00:41:03
Spencer
Because i do what one of my favorite things in the world is just on a summer morning where no one has to be anywhere at any time just to sit there with her and look at the bunnies in the backyard and the blah, blah, blah, the nothing, just the this.
00:41:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
okay
00:41:04
Mr P(ersistent)
Mm.
00:41:18
Spencer
But if we're going to be doing something, let's do it. Right. I'm not, I don't like it's, um, I don't watch people do things.
00:41:22
Mr P(ersistent)
hmm
00:41:25
Spencer
I don't want to watch your sports team and I don't care if they win or lose. I want to do the thing. Right. And so like, maybe, maybe, maybe I'm the best at sitting on the porch and having a cup of coffee.
00:41:37
Spencer
I know, you know what I mean?
00:41:37
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:41:38
Spencer
Like, yeah.
00:41:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ah, ha, ha, ha!
00:41:39
Spencer
But, but, but it is contentment, right?
00:41:40
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:41:42
Spencer
It is. And, but you're, there has to be a balance. And I think that I'm a pretty well balanced dude. you know what I mean? Like I think there' there's, there's no blinking red lights in my life. Right.
00:41:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, well, well it what will what I will say is when I've looked into this topic more more broadly about pushers versus more contented people, like more Zen, you know appreciation, gratitude for what I have, the extremist pushers are very unhappy in a general sense.
00:41:52
Spencer
And.
00:42:03
Spencer
Mm hmm.
00:42:09
Spencer
Yeah.
00:42:09
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm. Hmm.
00:42:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so to your point about balance...
00:42:11
Spencer
So you, right. You just said the most important part there. I'm happy happy with what I have or unhappy with what I'm having. One habit that I have that i started, ah it was probably 14 years ago with my mastermind group. that I have a mastermind group that I've met with every Friday for like 13, 14 years.
00:42:31
Spencer
ah Three things I'm grateful for every single day. And, you know, coffee shows up pretty regularly when I can't think of anything, right?
00:42:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:42:41
Spencer
But also the breeze in the trees or the, you know, the fact that it's not 110% humidity outside right now, you know, ah that I think so truly has helped me reframe I mean, everyone's always bitching about the things that are going wrong, even me. Right.
00:42:55
Spencer
And so you have to train yourself to be like, ah, but this is like seven things went perfectly right today.
00:42:56
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah, yeah. Hmm.
00:43:01
Spencer
You know? um So I think that has really helped me balance, you know, the, the type a yeah, hundred percent.
00:43:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Some of the pusher. Yeah, the pusher type A. Okay.
00:43:09
Spencer
Cause my life is freaking awesome. You know what i mean?
00:43:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:43:11
Spencer
And like, you know, yeah.
00:43:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:43:14
Spencer
Anyway.
00:43:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So let's... um Eric, you're looking at me. Do you want transition to ad read or you want to go to our next topic?
00:43:19
Mr P(ersistent)
No, no, no. yeah I mean, well, I can't leave a good transition on the table like that. So, ah you know who who else makes me feel...
00:43:27
Spencer
ah
00:43:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and
00:43:32
Mr P(ersistent)
um
00:43:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:43:34
Mr P(ersistent)
joyful, grateful for the warm embrace of a masculine man is as our Lord and Savior, William Teresa Burkle at WTB Woodworking at 390 Pike Road in Huntington Valley.
00:43:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
our Lord and Savior.
00:43:46
Mr P(ersistent)
I will tell you this. I was just there this past weekend and I was teaching.
00:43:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Where are you? Uh-huh.
00:43:52
Mr P(ersistent)
I taught a class and um bill Bill is a on top of just being a masculine man and a hell of a business owner. Um, a very kind host of an audience, you know, um, I had a great time. it was mostly patrons that were at the class. We were, we were doing uh, shaper class and, Teddy came on Sunday and just kind of vibed, with the, with the whole of the class. It was, good it was a good ass time. So if you have any questions about, um, you know, the type of mom and pop operation that you'd be supporting, if you go on a WTB woodworking.com and purchase your wares and goods from Billy and Teresa Burkle, uh, he's a delightful human being.
00:44:36
Mr P(ersistent)
Not that I didn't know that beforehand, but I thought I would tell you, um,
00:44:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A shout out to the mom and pop operations in today's society.
00:44:44
Spencer
Yeah!
00:44:45
Mr P(ersistent)
Honestly, honestly, like it's it's literally i i learned a lot of things about the the operation.
00:44:45
Spencer
So cool!
00:44:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:44:52
Mr P(ersistent)
He started out as a person who was making kind of engraved charcuterie boards and signs on a CNC and a laser. Then he expanded into slabs and Sawyer.
00:45:03
Mr P(ersistent)
and then he expanded into selling tools in in the such and um you know now he's got a he's got a whole storefront but you can order if listen i will say this if there is anything that you would order from like woodcraft or rockler try to try to go to WTP Woodworking first and just order it from them and support the small business. you know
00:45:23
Spencer
That's awesome.
00:45:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:45:23
Mr P(ersistent)
That's what I'll say. um
00:45:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. It's awesome.
00:45:26
Mr P(ersistent)
Let's see. Right now, when is this episode? No, this is through May 29th and we are already like three weeks past that.
00:45:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're in June, baby.
00:45:32
Mr P(ersistent)
So i'm not I'm not live reading this right now.
00:45:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Until when?
00:45:33
Spencer
ah
00:45:36
Mr P(ersistent)
I will say he's giving away a dust collection, a jet dust collector, one and a half horse. It is the exact same unit that I have in my shop.
00:45:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
until when
00:45:45
Mr P(ersistent)
um until July 24th. Don't you sass me.
00:45:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:45:48
Mr P(ersistent)
all right.
00:45:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:45:49
Mr P(ersistent)
Don't you sass me.
00:45:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I got to make sure you're not like totally fucking out of date.
00:45:51
Mr P(ersistent)
Get in on that. Get in on that. You can go to his website and his Instagram for more information on that. And, you know, other than that, says just go just go check him out.
00:46:03
Mr P(ersistent)
And if you end up in the store, ask him for a warm and gentle caress.
00:46:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
WPT.
00:46:07
Mr P(ersistent)
You know, he loves that.
00:46:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Please do not ask him for that.
00:46:10
Spencer
do not do that
00:46:11
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:46:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, when you make a mess out of like your cabinets and you have nail holes, what do you do with them?
00:46:19
Mr P(ersistent)
I usually fill them with the as gorilla parts, mostly.
00:46:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What are you filming with?
00:46:26
Mr P(ersistent)
um You know, because the best the best filler comes from gorillas know how to fill holes.
00:46:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric.
00:46:35
Mr P(ersistent)
That feels like a thing I shouldn't say in in an ad read for a corporate entity.
00:46:36
Spencer
That feels weird. ah
00:46:42
Mr P(ersistent)
ah So let me tell you about Gorilla Glue Wood Filler. No, no. Very specifically in the notes I'm reading right now, Gorilla Wood Filler.
00:46:52
Mr P(ersistent)
It gives you strength and the filler gives you the finish. Together, they take your project from built to professional looking.
00:46:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i let eric I let Eric talk about the wood filler because, ah Eric, you build cabinets and I expected you...
00:47:02
Mr P(ersistent)
Listen,
00:47:08
Mr P(ersistent)
I do build cabinets and I use wood filler and sometimes you just got to do the thing that the client wants you to do, which I am not doing right now for Gorilla Glue. Paul, tell us about the wood glue that they offer the good people.
00:47:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Look, wood glue is great. The problem with most wood glues is that it contains a lot of moisture, which causes cupping or warping on very thin pieces of wood. And Gorilla Glue tries to minimize the amount of ah water in their wood glue.
00:47:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm all about that because water expansion contraction, as you know, is a problem with wood. Uh, so I like the wood glue because it contains less water. And in fact, if not only does the wood glue contain less water, but the polyurethane glue contains no water. So you have two options with gorilla. glu
00:48:02
Mr P(ersistent)
I do. I do enjoy that this ad read is specifically about the wood filler and the the wood glue that they make. And we have been working with them for like five or six episodes now.
00:48:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:48:15
Mr P(ersistent)
And every single episode you mentioned the polyurethane glue when they specific they specifically were like this ad read is not about the polyurethane glue.
00:48:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:48:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because i
00:48:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, well, like, look, I'm going to be honest.
00:48:23
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:48:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that's that's just... Look, don't sponsor our podcast if you don't want honesty.
00:48:30
Mr P(ersistent)
I will say.
00:48:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The polyurethane glue is fucking awesome. Period.
00:48:34
Mr P(ersistent)
On that note, on that note, you are the one who got me into veneering with with polyurethane glue and it fucking slaps.
00:48:34
Spencer
Well, there you go!
00:48:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay?
00:48:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you are the one who's going to get us fired with Gorilla Glue for saying it's for saying it's made from Gorilla Parts.
00:48:43
Mr P(ersistent)
That's my aim, honestly, if I'm if i'm being honest. I never said that.
00:48:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and then
00:48:49
Spencer
parts.
00:48:50
Mr P(ersistent)
I simply noted that one could, if they so desired, make glue from gorillas.
00:48:50
Spencer
Oh.
00:48:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, enough. Time out.
00:49:00
Spencer
oh
00:49:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Tiempo. Okay.
00:49:02
Mr P(ersistent)
All right. Hey, I do.
00:49:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Moving on.
00:49:03
Mr P(ersistent)
I know before we do that, I do legally have to say you can order yours today at GorillaTough.com slash woodworking is BS.
00:49:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, before we do that.
00:49:10
Mr P(ersistent)
That is GorillaTough.com slash woodworking is BS. And thanks to Gorilla Glue and WTV Woodworking for sponsoring this week's episode. Carry on, Paul.
00:49:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So the other topic, Spencer, that you brought up that you thought it would be good to talk about is gatekeeping.
00:49:27
Spencer
Yes.
00:49:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh-oh, don't leave. So Spencer, you mentioned the case for gatekeeping, and that got me wondering two things. How do we define gatekeeping, Mary?
00:49:48
Spencer
Mm hmm.
00:49:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. And is gatekeeping good and bad? So I looked at the definition, like I kind of dove into gatekeeping, like what does gatekeeping really mean?
00:49:59
Spencer
Okay. Yeah.
00:50:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it says ah at its core, gatekeeping is about controlling access to legitimacy.
00:50:11
Spencer
Oh, okay. Not skills and techniques and unless those skills and techniques.
00:50:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, this is much this is much broader.
00:50:19
Spencer
Yeah.
00:50:20
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
00:50:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's about controlling access to what to legitimacy.
00:50:20
Spencer
Yeah.
00:50:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
what we call It's not just access to a thing, but access to what is being recognized as a legitimate form of something, form of art,
00:50:25
Spencer
Uh huh.
00:50:32
Spencer
Wow. So that's so, it's just so interesting when our modern era, because like you're legitimate, if you can convince enough people that you're legitimate and so no one could gatekeep, right?
00:50:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, okay. All right.
00:50:43
Spencer
You know what I'm saying?
00:50:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right So let's go through and and I want to get your your reactions, both you and Eric, your reactions to gatekeeping. So let's, I'm going to, I'm going to give you a couple pros and a couple of cons.
00:50:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um And maybe let's, let's, let's do them in sections. Let's do the pros of gatekeeping, react to that.
00:51:02
Spencer
Okay. Mm-hmm.
00:51:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then the cons of gatekeeping react to that.
00:51:07
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:51:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Eric, you ready? Okay. Well, number one, the pro of gatekeeping. Well, categories or arts or whatever you call the thing requires boundaries.
00:51:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If everything is art, there is no art, right?
00:51:24
Spencer
Right.
00:51:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like we have to have like bebop jazz.
00:51:25
Spencer
Right.
00:51:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a thing. And there's a boundary around bebop jazz. There's a boundary about sculptural art. And so without that, if everything counts, nothing counts, you know, so categories require boundaries.
00:51:40
Spencer
Right. So it's like gatekeeping as taxonomy or something, right? Like, it's like, you thank you for drawing the lines around what this is and what this isn't.
00:51:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:51:49
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:51:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And furthermore, having some standards about that taxonomy or whatever you call it about sculpture, having some standards protects not only quality, but transmission from generation to generation.
00:52:02
Spencer
Yeah.
00:52:05
Spencer
Yes. I want to speak about a con of that pro ah because humans.
00:52:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, what let's let's let's be let's be positive first.
00:52:12
Spencer
Yeah.
00:52:13
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:52:13
Spencer
Yeah. Okay.
00:52:14
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:52:14
Spencer
Yes.
00:52:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So what do you think about those two?
00:52:14
Spencer
I mean, that's
00:52:18
Spencer
what do you think eric you go ahead?
00:52:18
Mr P(ersistent)
yeah have Well, I was going to say, I mean, like we're being pro, right? So I agree with the fundamental idea behind that, which is we want things to be beautiful.
00:52:24
Spencer
Yeah.
00:52:32
Mr P(ersistent)
We want things to be good. We want things to be functional. And the only way to ensure that the next generation, as you said, Paul, learns the the things that work, the things that are beautiful and can can can carry on the tradition and push it forward is to have some window in which like there is there is a basement and below that you're not hitting the standard.
00:52:58
Mr P(ersistent)
So maybe to that extent, that that bit of gatekeeping is helpful to like for For those of us who are the strivers, the achievers, the the endlessly restless folk, um we have some we have some goalposts to hit.
00:53:17
Mr P(ersistent)
Like there's ah there's a basement there and and we have to get at least good enough to do that.
00:53:24
Spencer
It's like if jack Jackson Pollock wasn't like, is it a good painting? He was like, is it a painting? I don't even know if what he's doing is a painting.
00:53:31
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:53:31
Spencer
I think that the difficulty with that, with the boundaries gatekeeping, helping us draw boundaries is that all of the worst and best examples of any given thing are outside the boundaries.
00:53:46
Mr P(ersistent)
Well, that's it that's a negative, brother. Come on now.
00:53:48
Spencer
No, but that's the trouble with the, okay.
00:53:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer. Yeah, come on, bro.
00:53:51
Mr P(ersistent)
yeah
00:53:51
Spencer
so so So here's the pro.
00:53:52
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
00:53:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Positivity. Okay.
00:53:54
Spencer
Here's the pro. Okay, no.
00:53:55
Mr P(ersistent)
Okay.
00:53:55
Spencer
So let's take the pro part of that. The pro part of that is that it keeps the riffraff out when the riffraff are actually going to cause damage to the reputation of the thing.
00:54:06
Spencer
So that is the pro part of that ah defense of gatekeeping.
00:54:06
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:54:12
Mr P(ersistent)
Okay, but the but the negative is that it's keeping out the like the exceptional.
00:54:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
okay
00:54:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, fine.
00:54:17
Spencer
It's not that it's keeping out, it's that they have to jump the track in order to do the thing that we're all like, oh my God, it's genius. You took that whole genre.
00:54:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God. Okay, fine. fight Look, everyone, Spencer insists on going to the cons.
00:54:27
Spencer
Yeah. Sorry.
00:54:29
Mr P(ersistent)
No, no, no, no, no. This is this the interesting point.
00:54:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let's go to the cons.
00:54:32
Mr P(ersistent)
can we Can we go to the cons?
00:54:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah Let's go to the cons.
00:54:34
Mr P(ersistent)
Okay.
00:54:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, let's go to the cons.
00:54:34
Spencer
Strength, weakness, strength, weakness.
00:54:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so
00:54:36
Spencer
Yeah.
00:54:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So number one, the first con of gatekeeping. Gates tend to calcify around whoever built those gates. They become very rigid, ah you know defining.
00:54:43
Spencer
Yeah.
00:54:46
Spencer
Yeah.
00:54:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And therefore, examples that fall outside that rigidness tend to fall outside the the definition of the thing.
00:54:57
Spencer
Right.
00:54:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right ah Novelty, people really stirring shit up is not accepted is not accepted by the gatekeeping crew that says sculpture is this, woodworking, fine furniture is this, jazz is this.
00:55:02
Mr P(ersistent)
Gonna like
00:55:09
Spencer
Right.
00:55:12
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:55:12
Mr P(ersistent)
it. How do we deal like within this con um if if we're taking like the the the top 10%, the top 5%, the people who are ahead of their time, as it were.
00:55:25
Mr P(ersistent)
How do we deal with those folks? The example I'm thinking of is Edgar Allen Poe, because inside I'm still an emo goth kid. um how we we have ah We have a man who is credited within the English language, within the American literature, you know that
00:55:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha.
00:55:45
Mr P(ersistent)
oeuvre as somebody who invented multiple genres, somebody who invented sci-fi, somebody who who had this great impact on American literature.
00:55:56
Mr P(ersistent)
And in his time, he kind of had like he was a one hit wonder. He had the Raven.
00:56:01
Spencer
Yeah.
00:56:01
Mr P(ersistent)
you know, and in it wasn't until like he he had jumped the track too early.
00:56:02
Spencer
Yeah. Yeah.
00:56:07
Mr P(ersistent)
And it wasn't until down the road 50 years 100 years later, where people are like, Oh, shit, actually, he was doing the thing that like now everybody's reading. So is that is that part of the gatekeeping thing? Or is that just like bad luck on his part? What Spencer, what do you think?
00:56:22
Spencer
I don't think it's bad luck because you can't, uh, you can't ask for the rewards the universe is going to give to you for doing your best work, right? You don't get to choose to be famous. You just get to choose to freaking break boundaries and we won't, we're so stupid. We won't recognize it for a few decades.
00:56:38
Spencer
that That's a, that's a, um, Sorry, I just got off a little tangent there, but I feel like that like the edge cases, the edge cases are seen for what they are and the trouble with the, with gatekeeping, the con part of this part of gatekeeping is that humans, as much as I love them, ruin everything.
00:56:44
Mr P(ersistent)
No, that was fucking beautiful, brother.
00:56:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha ha.
00:56:59
Spencer
Right. Like the politics ruins everything because the gatekeep, the con you're talking about right now is that if you get to draw the line, that's an incredible amount of power.
00:57:00
Mr P(ersistent)
right.
00:57:08
Spencer
And you can say that Edgar Allen Poe is not literature. It's just some weird dude doing that over here. And then it takes, you know, decades for us be no, actually, that was the greatest version of it. So I don't know.
00:57:20
Mr P(ersistent)
I'm not like I'm not pausing because I disagree with you. I'm pausing because like you just said like four things that were fucking incredible and I'm trying to decide which one to like latch on to and like and like have a conversation about.
00:57:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha ha.
00:57:34
Spencer
Oh, go right ahead. Take your pick.
00:57:34
Mr P(ersistent)
i Well, I guess i'm I'm wondering, so you started off this episode with like a really empathetic take on on humanity.
00:57:46
Mr P(ersistent)
And now what you're saying is ah people ruin everything.
00:57:46
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:57:51
Mr P(ersistent)
And guess I'm wondering, is is it reasonable to be ahead of your time to be really exceptional at what you do to the point where the masses don't accept it, but then be ah upset or bitter about the fact that the masses will like the the herd takes time and i I don't want to be an elitist prick and like refer to humanity as a herd of cows.
00:58:16
Mr P(ersistent)
But you know, like the the the
00:58:16
Spencer
Sure.
00:58:19
Mr P(ersistent)
the lead goes out ahead of the crowd and then the crowd takes time to catch up. And is it reasonable to expect that you can be so far ahead of the crowd and then also be praised for being ahead of the crowd or you just outside of the crowd?
00:58:25
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
00:58:37
Spencer
I think you can't make the work that Edgar, the the type of work that... people like Edgar Allen Poe make while giving a shit about what people think about it. Well, while you can have your heart broken that people aren't seeing the beauty that you see.
00:58:47
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
00:58:52
Spencer
That's fair. Right. But I don't think you get to whine about the fact that you're not at the top of the charts when what you're doing is new. And I don't think, go ahead.
00:58:58
Mr P(ersistent)
Okay. Go ahead.
00:59:00
Spencer
No, I think that, go ahead. do you I want to hear what you have to say.
00:59:02
Mr P(ersistent)
Well, well I want to pull a contemporary of Pose in Henry want Wadsworth Longfellow.
00:59:10
Spencer
Okay.
00:59:10
Mr P(ersistent)
right ah to I love Longfellow.
00:59:11
Spencer
Sure.
00:59:13
Mr P(ersistent)
I think the the blacksmith is one of my favorite poems of 19th century. but he was at the top of his game during his lifetime.
00:59:23
Spencer
hu
00:59:23
Mr P(ersistent)
he was He was lauded, he was a professor, I believe it at Yale or Harvard, one of one of the Ivy Leagues in in literature.
00:59:29
Spencer
hu
00:59:30
Mr P(ersistent)
He was the shit, right? He was like the fucking Michael Jackson of his time.
00:59:36
Spencer
Sure, sure.
00:59:39
Mr P(ersistent)
And 150 years later, we're like, eh, he was kind of a basic bitch. You know, like he he he hit.
00:59:44
Spencer
That just says you about Longfellow.
00:59:46
Mr P(ersistent)
and Well, but but like, right, like how how many how many schools are still teaching ah the blacksmith or or or Evangeline or whatever it is, you know, like the he he he fit so well within the confines of what literature was expected of him in his time, that as time has gone by, where were like, ah, he was good for his time.
00:59:46
Spencer
okay. ok No, I get it. Yeah, yeah. Right.
00:59:54
Spencer
Yeah.
00:59:56
Spencer
Yeah, sure.
01:00:12
Spencer
Okay, so I think sculpturally, obviously, right? And so i so I'm thinking about like, like um there are all these sculptors who were rock stars of you know the the American school of figurative sculpture or the the European school of figurative sculpture, and I don't even know their names.
01:00:15
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
01:00:27
Spencer
Right. But I do know who Franz Xavier Messerschmidt is. And he's a dude who went absolutely crazy, totally left the status quo and made these busts that seem like modern art in the freaking Renaissance. i mean, have 1500s. I think it was 15, 1600s. Maybe it was later than that. Don't quote me on that. Anyway, way ahead of their time. Now, dude went crazy and got no accolades. Right. And so um but and we're not but we're talking about him.
01:00:56
Spencer
but it doesn't matter to him because he's been dead for hundreds of years.
01:00:58
Mr P(ersistent)
Well, that's the other side of that coin.
01:00:59
Spencer
Right. And so I just, you can, I mean, also how lucky, how lucky can a person be to be so good at what they're doing that they get to choose whether or not they want to participate in the status quo at an elite level or go off on their own and invent new genres of the thing.
01:01:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
01:01:18
Spencer
I mean, I'm not gonna, I'm not that dude.
01:01:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Spencer, can you summarize for us what you feel about gatekeeping in a global sense?
01:01:22
Spencer
Yeah.
01:01:27
Spencer
Yes, okay, but your definition of gatekeeping threw me way off because I think I've been, yeah, no it's,
01:01:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, what, give get give us your, give us your definition.
01:01:35
Spencer
Yeah, no, I will.
01:01:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's fine.
01:01:36
Spencer
But I've been using it kind of in the col colloquial, it's a fun word to say, colloquial, right? Which is that the access to information, right? And you know everyone talks about the social media, there is no gatekeeping.
01:01:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
01:01:48
Spencer
You can become a rock star on TikTok now, whatever, right? And the reason I said I wanted to talk about gatekeeping is because the first reel that we put out that actually had some success, like, I Instagram's weird.
01:01:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
01:02:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
01:02:02
Spencer
It's like, you know, uh, less than 1% of 1% of the reels take off like crazy. And then a few reels do okay. and then all the rest of the reels are like average. Right. But the first reel where I was like, Oh shit, this thing has a life of its own. I start by saying this, if I have to keep secrets to make money, I must be doing something wrong.
01:02:22
Spencer
And that is from a story that was very personal to me because when I started out in sculpture, mold making is a very important part of what I do.
01:02:23
Mr P(ersistent)
you
01:02:31
Spencer
And mold making is a skill and it is hard to learn and it's expensive to learn because all the materials are expensive.
01:02:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yeah. yeah
01:02:37
Spencer
And when I graduated from college, sorry about the sirens. When I graduated from college, i was a crappy mold maker. And so I called this guy in town who I had found did made molds for people. And I was like, look, I cannot afford to pay you thousands of dollars to make molds for me. I just can't do it. But I would love to pay you to make one mold and maybe extra so that I can just watch.
01:03:02
Spencer
So I could learn what you're, how you're doing, what you're doing. So I could go practice it myself. Right. You know, sometimes just a little bit of of so professional advice will shortcut, you know, hours of spinning.
01:03:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:03:15
Spencer
And he said, well, why would I share all my secrets with you? And I was just like kind of taken aback. And on one hand, I'm very empathetic. This dude has to pay his bills. He probably only knows this skill. He doesn't want me sharing, you know, the skill he has with the world. And, you know, mind you, this was 2005, right?
01:03:34
Spencer
five right It's kind of a different world. Um, But I just realized that I'm never gonna not tell people how I do things ah because I want more awesome stuff in the world.
01:03:45
Spencer
And I mean, i guess it's my bad if the only way I'm able to make money is because I'm the only person who knows how to do this thing in this town, right? Now, the other part of the gatekeeping thing that I think is really important is that you don't have the right to demand any knowledge from me, right?
01:03:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha.
01:04:01
Spencer
Because one thing I've found, especially online, is that some people get really bent out of shape. If you don't stop what you're doing today and tell them how to do this thing.
01:04:10
Mr P(ersistent)
why turned off comments, brother.
01:04:11
Spencer
And so, yeah, because it's like, you know, I mean, and I don't mind. People tell me I'm doing it wrong all day long. I don't care about that. But the thing that really surprised me is the entitlement of like, I owe them access to this information.
01:04:22
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
01:04:24
Spencer
So that's that is what I meant when I. when I was talking about gatekeeping is the access to technical information. I have benefited so greatly from people sharing that. How could I ever not share?
01:04:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We had on the guest, Eric, remember? ah ara it was about territorialism in the arts. Jet, the tattoo artist, who talked about in the tattoo field, you owe nobody nothing.
01:04:47
Spencer
Hmm. Hmm.
01:04:48
Mr P(ersistent)
Mmm. Yep, yep, yep, yep.
01:04:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Nobody told me, no one shared me, and I'm not about to share with them.
01:04:56
Spencer
Yeah.
01:04:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's a totally different view of that.
01:05:00
Mr P(ersistent)
Mmm.
01:05:01
Spencer
Well, that's a, that's a, ah that's a position to take to stake out. I mean, i you know what i mean? Like I can't argue with a person for believing a thing. I just would say that the evidence shows that that's a great way to ruin your craft generationally.
01:05:15
Mr P(ersistent)
Mmm.
01:05:15
Spencer
Right? Like,
01:05:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know. ah We'll see. i mean, tattooing has only gotten bigger and and more exciting, so nothing's been ruined. Apparently there's intense territorialism in the tattooing arts.
01:05:26
Spencer
I mean, that makes perfect sense because of kind of the culture of like, you know, tough, little bit of toughness, little bit of machismo, a little bit of punk, you know?
01:05:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, yes, and it was a great episode.
01:05:31
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Little go fuck yourself, yeah.
01:05:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jet...
01:05:35
Spencer
Yeah.
01:05:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, Jet spoke so eloquently about like why it's that way, how it got to be that way.
01:05:41
Spencer
Yeah.
01:05:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it made such sense, Eric. You remember, it was one of like a great episodes.
01:05:45
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh, it a top five favorite episodes we've done, in my opinion.
01:05:49
Spencer
Yeah.
01:05:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But it was all about, I'm not here to share shit.
01:05:49
Mr P(ersistent)
it was...
01:05:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Figure it out. I figured it out You got to figure it out.
01:05:54
Spencer
Well,
01:05:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Whereas, Spencer, I agree with you. i share everything. So I was kind of like, I was where you are the black sheep.
01:05:59
Spencer
yeah
01:06:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was like, yeah, I'm happy to share everything. i don't know why. What's the big secret? The secret is not holding anyone back.
01:06:07
Spencer
Yeah.
01:06:10
Spencer
Yeah.
01:06:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or, sorry, sharing the secret is not ruining my art. I guess that's what I mean to say.
01:06:14
Spencer
Right. Well, but, and I think that what what you said about the tattoo artist, I, you have to have, that's the thing. It's all nuance. Right. And, and, and, and and the people who are begging the hardest for the information are typically the ones who going to do diddly squat with it.
01:06:29
Spencer
Right. And so
01:06:30
Mr P(ersistent)
oh
01:06:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:06:31
Mr P(ersistent)
um that's fair
01:06:31
Spencer
Right. Because everyone wants the bomb. Yeah. Everyone wants the freaking the lotion they can put on that makes them awesome at Kung Fu.
01:06:38
Mr P(ersistent)
yeah
01:06:39
Spencer
Right. We all want it. Right. And so, so that, so I honed, I hundred percent agree with the tattoo artists.
01:06:49
Spencer
That's like, get kicked claw bite and scratch your way to this information. And, and like, yes, of course. But that's kind of what I mean. If someone shows, if, I mean, the person I want to share everything with the most is the person who's like, oh, Oh my God, dude, I've been doing all this stuff.
01:07:05
Spencer
I've done this thing and this thing and this thing. And I just, if you could just show me how to do this one part and that I'm like, Oh God, have I got some stuff to tell you? Cause I'm going to send you on a rocket ride to work that I really want to witness in the universe.
01:07:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ah, see, Spencer, you care about the art itself.
01:07:17
Mr P(ersistent)
So
01:07:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead, Eric.
01:07:18
Mr P(ersistent)
Well, so Spencer, I wanted to know how you feel about copying because I agree with everything you just said.
01:07:24
Spencer
Yeah.
01:07:28
Mr P(ersistent)
And people ah copy me, people will will DM me and be like, is it OK if I copy you?
01:07:28
Spencer
And.
01:07:33
Spencer
Yeah.
01:07:36
Mr P(ersistent)
And I'm always like, please copy. First of all, I didn't invent like a whiskey cabinet. Right. Like I'm ripping people off.
01:07:41
Spencer
Yeah, totally.
01:07:42
Mr P(ersistent)
People before me were ripping people off.
01:07:43
Spencer
Yes.
01:07:44
Mr P(ersistent)
That's just like there's only so many fucking rectangles you can make in this goddamn world.
01:07:47
Spencer
Yeah, sure.
01:07:48
Mr P(ersistent)
But but when people try to copy me ah or or in I'll be more kind to use my work as inspiration, but they're really just trying to recreate the thing that I've done.
01:07:58
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
01:08:00
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
01:08:01
Mr P(ersistent)
Because of the way that I make things, and it seems to be this way for you, my hand is like my arm moves a certain way, my hand moves a certain way.
01:08:12
Mr P(ersistent)
And if you try to do exactly what I did, your hand moves a different way because the length of your arm is different, because your experience is different.
01:08:17
Spencer
Yeah.
01:08:19
Mr P(ersistent)
So fucking copy me and figure it out because by the time you're done recreating the thing I've made, you've made something entirely different.
01:08:20
Spencer
Yeah.
01:08:26
Mr P(ersistent)
And that's a valuable lesson for you to learn. And, and so, yeah first of all, do people ask you if they can copy you?
01:08:29
Spencer
Totally.
01:08:34
Mr P(ersistent)
Are you cool with that? And and like, what is your what's your feeling on copying people who you think are better than you?
01:08:42
Spencer
I made a sculpture that is nearly a direct... replica of Charles Sergeant Jaggers, who is a sculptor who died ah just post-World War I.
01:08:53
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
01:08:54
Spencer
And I learned so much from making that sculpture that it has changed how I make all sculptures from now on.
01:08:57
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
01:09:00
Spencer
Right. And so, yeah, there's, and this, this gets really weird with, with AI, ah you know, ah image generation now too.
01:09:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
01:09:07
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
01:09:09
Spencer
And I think people are right you be offended about some things. I, I use AI all the time. I don't, hopefully this is a safe space to admit that I love Claude.
01:09:18
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm. Hmm.
01:09:19
Spencer
I mean, you know, um, it's really helped my 1968 Jeepster, ah project kind of move forward being, you know, uh, but, um, but the copying thing gotten a little weird because, ah people can literally steal,
01:09:34
Spencer
what took you 20 years to develop and not like you were saying where they learn a whole bunch in the process, but no, like make your shit. And so there's this weird
01:09:43
Mr P(ersistent)
Sure, sure. There's a differentiation there, and that's that's totally fair.
01:09:45
Spencer
Yeah. And it's so, it's so nuanced. But yeah, you can't copy me because I just, you know, have these sausagey fingers and have been doing this for fricking 20 years and have made the tools that I've made that you don't have.
01:09:48
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
01:09:58
Spencer
And so you can try to copy me. And if you do that right, you'll end up making your own work. Way to go. You know?
01:10:04
Mr P(ersistent)
See, I-
01:10:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, you could copy something you've already made, but you certainly won't be able to copy the next thing that you're about to make, Spencer.
01:10:11
Spencer
Totally. Totally.
01:10:12
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah, I think that's a fair differentiation to make between like the copying the idea or like somebody spending 20 years developing a thing.
01:10:13
Spencer
Yeah. That's, i mean, Exactly how I feel about it.
01:10:21
Mr P(ersistent)
And then all of a sudden, AI comes along, whatever it is, and and it all just kind of it happens in an instant.
01:10:21
Spencer
Gosh dang this internet. There we go.
01:10:29
Mr P(ersistent)
That's different from what I've at least seen on on your socials of how you work, you making things by hand.
01:10:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um,
01:10:35
Spencer
Yeah.
01:10:37
Mr P(ersistent)
Paul, even when you you know mill out CNC shit on on your X-carve, you're still cutting dovetails by hand. Your dovetails look different than mine. You use a different angle ratio. you know Those are the types of things where I'm like, copy me.
01:10:54
Mr P(ersistent)
If I was three d printing things, if I was laser carving things, whatever it is, I might feel differently. So that's a fair differentiation, Megan.
01:11:01
Spencer
Yeah.
01:11:03
Mr P(ersistent)
I appreciate you bringing that up.
01:11:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I allow people to copy me because I know they'll never be me on the next project. You can copy something I made already.
01:11:08
Spencer
Yeah.
01:11:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Power to you. But I'm not making a living at it.
01:11:14
Spencer
Yeah, that's where it's...
01:11:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i'm a sign I'm a scientist for a living, right?
01:11:15
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
01:11:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that's my That feeds my family and the art is important, but it's not feeding my family. So it's easy for me to say, go ahead and copy me when it's not my livelihood at stake.
01:11:28
Spencer
Yeah. Yeah. And it is a place of privilege. And i think it's important to understand that privilege that like, you can be very gracious because, but also it, the race to the bottom is always a failure, right?
01:11:41
Spencer
And my sculpture teacher in college was like, yeah, well, it's all, you're always going to fail.
01:11:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I like that.
01:11:45
Spencer
My sculpture teacher in college was like, you can copy people if you want, but they're moving on. You're just going to be making last year's work. But you know, um, the big e-commerce juggernaut that we all know about has really proven to people that, first of all, everyone's going to try to copy you all the time when it's just a thing you're selling that can be reproduced, right?
01:12:07
Spencer
And like, suddenly we will all arrive at the the least amount somebody's willing to take for this object. But that's not what we're trying to do here. And if it is cool, go do it. Do you know I mean Like, so even for the people who are getting ripped off with their You know, they're, they're computer designs that are 3d printable and somebody steals it and makes a million of them.
01:12:25
Spencer
Like, yeah, sucky, but I don't think that's what they're about anyway. They're about pushing this thing forward, which is over in here, as opposed to just making this money stuff.
01:12:35
Mr P(ersistent)
I wonder if all three of us are too altruistic about like the thing that we love, which is making things, the craft, like the the beautification of the world.
01:12:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Eric, i wanted to I wanted to live on, you know?
01:12:49
Mr P(ersistent)
Well, sure, sure, sure.
01:12:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah you and...
01:12:50
Mr P(ersistent)
I'm not, I'm not, listen, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm saying like from our perspective, I, what ah Spencer is, you were, I almost called you Jeff.
01:12:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, no. I know. I know. I know.
01:12:58
Mr P(ersistent)
That's how similar I feel like you and Jeff are actually Spencer.
01:13:00
Spencer
That's funny.
01:13:02
Mr P(ersistent)
As you were saying that I was, I was wondering about the, what I was talking about before about like all of the, the grizzled old cabinet maker vets who are just fucking tired of making boxes and built-ins and in yada, yada, yada.
01:13:17
Spencer
Yeah.
01:13:17
Mr P(ersistent)
And, and, these people who have spent their time developing products, developing things that can get made, and maybe they've spent years or decades being like, I have a good idea. And the way that this idea comes to fruition is I develop a prototype, I send prototype off to China, I get prototype back from China, I commissioned 100,000 of those things to be made, i bring it back to the US market, and I sell said objects, and they've spent 20 30 years doing that and then all of a sudden the 3d printer comes out and everybody's just printing their object and they're like well what the was all that work for like why am i i'm just tired now of of making new ideas i'm just in this field because it's what i fell into which i think so many people in the trades are they're just like they just fell into it and we're out here like Yeah, yeah, that's fine.
01:13:56
Spencer
Yeah.
01:14:01
Spencer
Yeah.
01:14:04
Spencer
Mm-hmm.
01:14:11
Mr P(ersistent)
But don't you want the world to be more beautiful?
01:14:15
Spencer
Yeah.
01:14:15
Mr P(ersistent)
Don't you just like love the craft? And they're like, I'm yeah, but I'm fucking tired, man.
01:14:21
Spencer
So here's what I know about that. First of all, that's tragic and happens all the time. And I would say it's not even the 3d printing these days when you send it to China to be manufactured before you even get your shipment, it'll someone will be selling a knockoff on Amazon.
01:14:33
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah, yeah.
01:14:33
Spencer
Right. ah Sorry, I didn't want to say the word on the big e-commerce site.
01:14:36
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
01:14:37
Spencer
Right. ah And that's tough. But you're you're you're right. That sucks, especially because the world has operated this way for a long, long time. And only in the last five to 10 years has it started operating this way. And that's a bummer if you spent 20 years building and growing and planning for the world you knew. And now you have a different one. But I'm I just know about me that I'm never going to do that.
01:15:01
Spencer
I am not interested in um working really hard to sell people widgets, right? Even if the widgets are a product of my 20 years of of nuanced understanding of this craft, and here's a thing that you need to do this craft way better. just get so bored of that. It's so boring. And so I will die on the hill of...
01:15:25
Spencer
ah even if it's short-term pain for me, I would rather everyone be making beautiful, awesome things. And if I have knowledge that can make that happen, and even if it's a pound of my flesh, I will give it to you because I want to live in that world. And the only way for me ever to be able to live in that world is to deal with the pain of carving out the pound of flesh.
01:15:45
Spencer
Right? I mean, and sometimes that is an existential pain. I don't know. i just it
01:15:52
Mr P(ersistent)
right, brother, you you pass the test.
01:15:52
Spencer
It's not an
01:15:54
Mr P(ersistent)
You're one of us. Hmm.
01:15:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, I like it, Spencer.
01:15:55
Spencer
It's not easy. It's not easy, but you know.
01:15:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, so guys, one of the things I wanted to say, and you were you you two were in a flow state with each other, i didn't want to interrupt. But about the the idea of gatekeeping, because we're still a little bit on that is from the scientific world, I wanted to tell you a story a little bit about gatekeep.
01:16:12
Spencer
Hmm.
01:16:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Gatekeeping is not unique to science, right?
01:16:17
Spencer
Sure.
01:16:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like the in There's always in groups and out groups and everything. It could be art. It could be social life. It could be science. So you you guys know bacteria, yeah?
01:16:29
Spencer
I've heard of it.
01:16:29
Mr P(ersistent)
Sure.
01:16:30
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
01:16:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah And you guys know like multicellular organisms. eu So prokaryotes and eukaryotes. Prokaryotes are bacteria.
01:16:39
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah. Totally. Totally.
01:16:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no no, that's just the the jargon.
01:16:41
Mr P(ersistent)
yeah Yeah.
01:16:41
Spencer
I'm with you.
01:16:42
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
01:16:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sorry.
01:16:42
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
01:16:42
Spencer
ah
01:16:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, come on.
01:16:42
Mr P(ersistent)
What about why carry oats, bro?
01:16:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Come on, come on.
01:16:44
Spencer
but But yeah, is the Z carry out in there?
01:16:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm trying to be honest.
01:16:44
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
01:16:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah I'm trying to be like friendly.
01:16:49
Spencer
Dumb it down for us.
01:16:49
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
01:16:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like so
01:16:50
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
01:16:50
Spencer
Dumb it down.
01:16:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, it's not like that.
01:16:52
Spencer
but
01:16:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's just like scientists insist on using this horrible jargon and I can't i can't stand it.
01:16:57
Spencer
oh yeah.
01:16:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But anyway, a single cell, we call it it is, it is.
01:16:59
Spencer
form of gatekeeping.
01:17:01
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah. Yeah.
01:17:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Good point. Single cell, we call it a prokaryote. Multi-cell, we call it a eukaryote. Okay? So that's been kind of the how we thought about the earth for so many years, right?
01:17:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Single cell, multi-cell, prokaryote, eukaryote. Well, in the 1977, in the 1970s, 1977, in fact, and the late like late nineteen seventy s nineteen seventy seven in fact ah A scientist came along, Carl Woes, and was like, you know, I've been doing some DNA sequence analysis, looking at DNA of these other things, and it doesn't seem like it's prokaryote, and it doesn't seem like it's a eukaryote. It seems like something on its own. It's like a third branch of life. Literally, a third branch of life
01:17:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he proposed this based on what he was finding in the DNA.
01:17:49
Spencer
Aliens.
01:17:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he was ostracized.
01:17:56
Spencer
Sure. Yes.
01:17:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Nobody wanted to hear it.
01:17:59
Spencer
Can't publish it Get out of here.
01:18:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Skepticism.
01:18:01
Spencer
Yeah.
01:18:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He was an introvert to begin with. He was not, you know, was ostracized. It was skepticism. He took it very hard being an introvert.
01:18:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And long story short, he discovered the third branch of life on the earth, which is called archaea. So it's prokaryotes, eukaryotes, and between them archaea, which are single cell organisms, but they look more like multi-cell organisms.
01:18:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They have aspects of both and they are not aligned to either. And the gatekeeping in the scientific community ruined this dude's life for the better part of, i don't know, a decade and did not allow that finding to to have its moment when it should have because everyone knows better.
01:18:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you know So like that's just my quick story about something that I think is incredible. like You're talking about the person who discovered the third branch of life on the earth.
01:19:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and he was subject to fucking gatekeeping please spencer well fine yes i fine it's good that's true it's true it's true it's true
01:19:08
Spencer
Point of order.
01:19:10
Spencer
Nobody can ruin your life. You can only ruin it yourself.
01:19:16
Spencer
And so I think, well, no, that's the point. Like, yeah, it's tragic. And and especially in ah in a in a field supposedly known for its open-mindedness to new discoveries, right?
01:19:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right
01:19:29
Spencer
But, but ah and ah obviously it's easier for some people to navigate these difficulties with different personality traits than others.
01:19:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well,
01:19:38
Spencer
um But no, duh, right?
01:19:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
well, yeah.
01:19:41
Spencer
Every organization is trying to squash the new voice and keep the political power it has.
01:19:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:19:46
Mr P(ersistent)
What it is it?
01:19:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But my example is just that how more important does it get than the third branch of life on the earth? And even that was subject to gay king. Shout out to Carl for like, I think he's, I don't know if he's alive anymore, but um you know what, like staying the course and he was eventually vindicated and everyone accepts that there's
01:20:01
Mr P(ersistent)
okay
01:20:03
Spencer
Yeah. Of course. How long did it take? Oh,
01:20:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah The better part of a decade, at least, you know, until DNA se dna sequencing became more, you know, once once DNA sequencing became more the norm, they started to look into, and funny enough, the archaea, this third branch of life, tends to be extremophiles.
01:20:11
Spencer
only 10 years. Okay. Yeah.
01:20:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So at like the hydrothermal vents under the ocean methane-loving organisms, like super interesting, but truly a third branch of life.
01:20:27
Spencer
Oh, sure. Hidden away.
01:20:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fucking gatekeeping!
01:20:37
Spencer
Yeah. I mean, no duh.
01:20:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
01:20:39
Spencer
I feel like, don't you feel like we've all seen that movie a million times where it's like, the world is like, oh no, no, you can't have it.
01:20:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:20:44
Mr P(ersistent)
and Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
01:20:47
Spencer
And it's like, oh, but then everyone thinks wonderful. You know, I don't know. so We always knew.
01:20:52
Mr P(ersistent)
ah I'm an extremophile, but mostly sexually.
01:20:55
Spencer
ah
01:20:56
Mr P(ersistent)
um So so
01:21:00
Spencer
i I'm not sure if that's in your favor or out of your favor.
01:21:02
Mr P(ersistent)
ah there's no way to know.
01:21:04
Spencer
We'll just leave that for the after show.
01:21:05
Mr P(ersistent)
There's no way to know.
01:21:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sorry, Mary.
01:21:06
Spencer
ah
01:21:06
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
01:21:08
Spencer
ah
01:21:09
Mr P(ersistent)
um isn' it it's I'm going to show my like seventh grade understanding of science at this point.
01:21:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Please.
01:21:15
Mr P(ersistent)
ah Gregor Mendel was the one who invented the Punnett Square.
01:21:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, i don't know. I don't know if he invented it, but sure.
01:21:23
Mr P(ersistent)
No, no. Or like he he was the guy with the peas though.
01:21:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure. I mean, it the yes, the the Mendelian inheritance is is dictated by Punnett Square.
01:21:26
Mr P(ersistent)
Right. Okay. Okay. Wasn't, wasn't he also like kind of shat on for being like, you can make yellow peas or green peas, like depending on how you breed them.
01:21:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know specifically, Eric, but I wouldn't be surprised if if genetic inheritance was was...
01:21:40
Mr P(ersistent)
I feel like I remember. Yeah. Okay.
01:21:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Look, anything new...
01:21:44
Mr P(ersistent)
That's my scientific ah contribut contribution this podcast.
01:21:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, I love it. I love it.
01:21:48
Spencer
I understood three of the words.
01:21:49
Mr P(ersistent)
Seventh, seventh grade earth science bullshit. Okay.
01:21:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Will, funny enough, genetics came up the other day and we'll, we'll transition to the after show soon. Genetics came up the other day when we found a stray kitten in our yard and adopted it.
01:22:03
Mr P(ersistent)
yeah you're just gonna casually bring this cat onto the the podcast yeah yeah yeah yeah you know how i found out he has a cat and i didn't freak out because mary texted me it was like paul got a very cute cat this bitch didn't even fucking text me about it
01:22:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Did you see, did you see?
01:22:07
Spencer
Oh, that's the first time you've seen this cat?
01:22:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no,
01:22:10
Spencer
was I thought it was, of ok
01:22:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no.
01:22:21
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
01:22:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So we heard meowing and this comes back to your genetics, which comes back to gatekeeping, Eric. We heard meowing outside the fucking window. I'm like, Vicky, do you hear that meowing outside? We go outside. we didn't see it. The next day we look around, we hear it again.
01:22:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And now we see a tiny little like four week old kitten in the yard.
01:22:44
Spencer
Oh, so cute.
01:22:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm like, this cat's going to die.
01:22:48
Spencer
Yeah, 100%.
01:22:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's hawks. There's coyotes. There's fisher cats.
01:22:50
Spencer
Yeah.
01:22:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, God forbid.
01:22:52
Spencer
Yeah.
01:22:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I go to the cat and fucking runs away. I'm like, do you know what's good for you, kitty?
01:22:56
Spencer
It's your stupid animal.
01:22:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because I'm good for you. I'm good for you Hawk is not.
01:23:00
Spencer
I'm good for you.
01:23:01
Mr P(ersistent)
If I had a nickel for every time I said that in a bar, but carry on.
01:23:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay?
01:23:01
Spencer
yeah
01:23:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
did
01:23:06
Spencer
Do you know what's good for? Wait, which one? Do you know what's good for you or stupid animal? Which which is the thing you're saying in the bar?
01:23:10
Mr P(ersistent)
this There's no way to know.
01:23:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What's good for you?
01:23:12
Mr P(ersistent)
I'm canceled either way.
01:23:13
Spencer
but
01:23:13
Mr P(ersistent)
So...
01:23:13
Spencer
but but
01:23:14
Mr P(ersistent)
nothing
01:23:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Day three, I hear kitties meowing again really loud. Probably looking for mom because it's a baby.
01:23:21
Spencer
Mm hmm.
01:23:22
Mr P(ersistent)
Sure, sure.
01:23:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like a fucking kitten.
01:23:22
Spencer
Yeah, it needs to nurse.
01:23:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see it. I said, Vicky, I see it. It's walking along the fence in our neighbor's yard. I go out. Kitty sees me, runs away. God damn it, kitty. I'm trying to save your life.
01:23:37
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
01:23:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Day four. It happens again. we catch Kitty. we adopt We adopt Kitty, Georgia, Daisy, Jasper. um We adopt Kitty. Kitty is fucking brilliant. We love every bit of her. She's all about us. She's all over me twenty four seven um The point, though, is she's an orange coat.
01:24:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I was like, oh, orange coat.
01:24:01
Spencer
Okay.
01:24:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's interesting. Everyone who I talk to, genetics, Eric, is like, oh, it's going to be a boy.
01:24:05
Mr P(ersistent)
Yep.
01:24:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's going to be a boy.
01:24:07
Mr P(ersistent)
Yep.
01:24:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's going to be a boy.
01:24:08
Mr P(ersistent)
Yep.
01:24:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because orange coat is on the X chromosome, which is the the girl chromosome, right?
01:24:13
Spencer
Oh, yeah.
01:24:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So... Vicky just brought her into the room.
01:24:17
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh, yeah.
01:24:18
Spencer
ah
01:24:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Those of you with. ah
01:24:20
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh, if there was ever a fucking reason to sign up for Patreon is to look at this goddamn adorable kitten right now.
01:24:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that's my baby. Hi, baby.
01:24:27
Spencer
We had a cat in college named Rhombus that looked just like that cat.
01:24:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You say hi.
01:24:31
Mr P(ersistent)
Rhombus is a good name for a cat, man.
01:24:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so it turns out orange coat is an X-linked trait.
01:24:33
Spencer
Rhombus was awesome.
01:24:34
Mr P(ersistent)
Hmm.
01:24:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
X is the the the chromosome, the female chromosome, right? And so boys only have one. they Boys are XY, right? So they only need one copy to be orange, whereas girls need two recessive copies to be orange.
01:24:52
Spencer
Okay.
01:24:55
Spencer
Sure.
01:24:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So my daughter and I, who and she's going to be a ah biology major, we were doing pundit squares, Eric, right?
01:25:01
Mr P(ersistent)
Hell yeah.
01:25:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
About our cats.
01:25:04
Spencer
about the cats
01:25:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, yeah.
01:25:04
Mr P(ersistent)
Goddamn right.
01:25:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we got the, we got the 20% probability that this little stray kitten in our yard was a girl.
01:25:06
Spencer
yeah
01:25:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it was indeed, we got the rare 20%.
01:25:13
Spencer
Wow, that's very rare.
01:25:14
Mr P(ersistent)
I knew that that seventh grade science would come in handy one day.
01:25:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
01:25:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Any who, any who we're going to transition to the after show.
01:25:17
Spencer
That's very rare.
01:25:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now we hope you have enjoyed our conversation about cats.
01:25:24
Mr P(ersistent)
what are we talking about in the after show?
01:25:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're talking about 4,000 weeks. I'll get to that.
01:25:29
Mr P(ersistent)
Okay.
01:25:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We hope you enjoyed our conversation.
01:25:30
Spencer
so yes.
01:25:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
First of all, I hope you enjoyed meeting Spencer.
01:25:36
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
01:25:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer is an amazing artist, and I hope you see the the magnitude and excellence of his sculptural objects.
01:25:38
Spencer
Thank you.
01:25:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Number one.
01:25:44
Mr P(ersistent)
Can you Spence, where can the people find you?
01:25:47
Spencer
ah So on the webs at eschubert.com and Schubert is just like the composer. So there's a C in there, S-C-H. And then on the ah Instagrams, it's eschubert sculpture.
01:26:00
Spencer
I think it's sculpture. Is it eschubert sculpture eschubert studio?
01:26:02
Mr P(ersistent)
ah we We can find out.
01:26:03
Spencer
I'm real bad at this.
01:26:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer, if you don't fucking know, we got a problem.
01:26:06
Spencer
I know. That's fine. Just search ES Schubert.
01:26:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ha
01:26:09
Spencer
yeah but but
01:26:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so first of all, thank you for talking with us.
01:26:15
Spencer
Sure.
01:26:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Spencer, the way I listen to you talk, there's two thoughts I had. You're extremely passionate and you're one of us. And I have no doubt you, me and Eric are gonna stay friends for long time.
01:26:27
Spencer
Sweet. I love new friends.
01:26:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we'd love to have you back to talk about other things. But not only are you passionate and you're you've thought through these things a lot, but your thoughts come so fast.
01:26:39
Spencer
Oh.
01:26:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And in such quantity, I can hardly keep up with you.
01:26:41
Spencer
Hmm.
01:26:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like you raised so many points today that I feel like Eric, and I know you'll back me up.
01:26:49
Mr P(ersistent)
Oh, yeah.
01:26:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I feel like I could have drilled down into so many of these topics and we barely skirted the tops of them.
01:26:53
Spencer
Okay.
01:26:57
Spencer
Well, that is just like so many compliments in a row that I'm just going to say thank you very much.
01:26:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, it's how, it's how I feel.
01:27:02
Mr P(ersistent)
I will also say 100% genuinely, Paul won't compliment you if you didn't earn it.
01:27:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And,
01:27:09
Spencer
You're not a smoke blower.
01:27:09
Mr P(ersistent)
ah
01:27:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so
01:27:10
Spencer
I appreciate that about you.
01:27:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I'm a scientist.
01:27:11
Mr P(ersistent)
No, he's not.
01:27:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm a scientist i am unfortunately...
01:27:12
Spencer
Yeah.
01:27:13
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
01:27:13
Spencer
So it's either good or it's bad. Why would we debate it?
01:27:14
Mr P(ersistent)
Yeah.
01:27:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:27:15
Spencer
Right?
01:27:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So um I hope you enjoyed our conversation about... And I hope the listeners think about this, which is if you have good taste, it may be hard to get started because you're going to suck for a while.
01:27:27
Spencer
Yeah.
01:27:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But as Spencer said, I encourage you to start because the only way to get to version 56...
01:27:28
Spencer
Yeah.
01:27:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
is through version one. And it's gonna hurt for probably the better part of 10 years.
01:27:37
Spencer
Yeah.
01:27:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah,
01:27:40
Spencer
Yeah. Can I tell a quick story about that just to end the podcast?
01:27:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah please go God
01:27:44
Spencer
Yeah. So I think, you know, often when you see people, I know when I see people doing things that I think are awesome online, it's like, oh my gosh, they work they came out of the uterus that way or whatever, right?
01:27:45
Mr P(ersistent)
dude. dude
01:27:54
Spencer
um I graduated with a degree in sculpture, not knowing how to make a lump of clay look like a specific person. It wasn't a skill. That's not a thing that's taught in art schools, really. I learned a lot of things in school, how to weld, how to cast bronze, how to barely make molds, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
01:28:12
Spencer
But I didn't know how to make a lump of clay look like a specific person. And now a short 26 years later, it is my full-time job making bronze things that look like specific people. And so I feel like you just owe it to yourself and the rest of us to get breaking started. Just kind of like make it your mission to get through the suckiness as quick as possible.
01:28:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love it. Thank you, Spencer. I think every listener will benefit from that.
01:28:38
Spencer
Yeah.
01:28:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Secondarily, we had a chat about gatekeeping. I don't know your particular view about gatekeeping. If you're like, it is a trade secret. It's not a trade secret.
01:28:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think there's arguments to be made for and against it. I feel like we raised a lot of those gatekeeping to me. and feel free to comment is part of the human condition.
01:29:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't see it going away. It's across fields.
01:29:06
Spencer
Yeah.
01:29:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's across generations.
01:29:07
Mr P(ersistent)
sure
01:29:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's something we'll continue to talk about. Thank you guys for a great conversation in the after show. All right. We're going to talk about 4,000 weeks. is,
01:29:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
what that means is your life, your life, the average life of a human is roughly 4,000 weeks. And everyone's like, oh, Paul, you're getting morbid again. No, I'm not.
01:29:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm getting realistic again. You have 4,000 weeks.
01:29:40
Spencer
Truthful.
01:29:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've lived about 2,500 of them already.
01:29:45
Mr P(ersistent)
Goddamn, you're old.
01:29:45
Spencer
Yeah, it's hard.
01:29:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What are you going to do?
01:29:46
Spencer
Damn!
01:29:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What are you going to do with the 1500 that remain?
01:29:50
Spencer
Yeah.
01:29:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, let's think about this, not as a morbid conversation, but as an opportunity to reprioritize how you spend them behind Spencer right now is a framed my life in weeks picture.
01:30:02
Spencer
Right there.
01:30:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And there, there, did you take those off yourself or is that printed?
01:30:10
Spencer
Yeah. So when we bought the company, I, I had the poster had been printed to I think I was 46 or something. And the rest are all me.
01:30:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Talk about the company for a sec, Spencer.
01:30:19
Mr P(ersistent)
Damn.
01:30:19
Spencer
money Oh, well we just, it's 4kweeks.com. My wife and I bought it from the two beautiful Spanish young men who created it. They owned it for two years and then we bought and we've owned it since I think 2022, 21.
01:30:33
Spencer
can't remember. Anyway. i can't remember anyway
01:30:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And do you feel like it's a morbid conversation talking about your life in weeks?
01:30:40
Spencer
I think it's, I mean, ah people always think it's morbid, but I'm going to die. Some people are really offended when you say that I will die one day, right?
01:30:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
01:30:47
Mr P(ersistent)
It's true. It's true.
01:30:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love Spencer.
01:30:48
Spencer
And you will die and everybody you love will die. And the only thing you benefit, the only thing that happens if you don't talk about it is that you're at risk of just missing it. And so, no, I think that the fact that I come in here every Monday morning and check off one more week that I don't get anymore makes me be like, Hey, you better get to work, man.
01:31:07
Spencer
You better get to work.
01:31:08
Mr P(ersistent)
All right.
01:31:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, Spencer.
01:31:09
Mr P(ersistent)
Let's talk about death in the after show, baby. Let's ride.
01:31:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're talking about that the after show.
01:31:13
Spencer
right.
01:31:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We'll see you there, kids.
01:31:15
Mr P(ersistent)
Thanks, friends.
01:31:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
by
01:31:15
Mr P(ersistent)
K, bye.