Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
188: Bodies in a bag: I Spy Edition
48 Plays4 days ago
This week we pry into some closed-up cases- a couple mysteries with some big clues and many questions. Like Kelsey covering the death of Mee Kuen (Deborah) Chong, a woman who was just selling her house. She was then tragically killed and the police were left to try and unravel the reason why.
Finally we have the case of the Spy in the Bag, aka the death of Gareth Williams, a highly intelligent agent skilled in math and codes. The man was working for MI6 at the time of his death, and the details just don't add up!
Let us know what you think, and don't forget to drop us a 5-stars!!
Darkcast Promo of the week: Love and Murder
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Darkcast Network
00:00:00
Speaker
Darkcast Network. Indie pods with a dark side.
Welcome to Castles and Cryptids
00:00:25
Speaker
Welcome back to Castles and Cryptids, where the castles are haunted and the cryptids are cryptic as fuck.
Meet the Hosts: Alanna and Kelsey
00:00:31
Speaker
And I'm Alanna. ah And I'm Kelsey. We're back.
00:00:37
Speaker
for another episode and week of craziness. yeah Hope you enjoyed the last one.
Challenges in Cryptid Journalism
00:00:47
Speaker
I was still trying to look up pictures for it going, what the hell? I was just telling Casey. Not knowing how to spell anything that you said. no.
00:00:58
Speaker
Well, no, but you could, I i just, you know, I can just be like South American folklore and then some stuff will come up. So, i can I can put them on the drive for you too but oh okay yeah you probably did have some pictures because i I had a few pictures from that I put on the website I can put them on the drive for you hold on oh cool yeah sometimes there's a lot of like artist renderings and I just don't know you know for any cryptids or whatever there
00:01:28
Speaker
there's some of that it's got some of the creatures and the groups and stuff People don't realize how cryptid journalism is so hard, you know? Yeah, God. It's hard to find good sources.
00:01:44
Speaker
Yeah, for our imaginary cryptids.
00:01:48
Speaker
No, but I do appreciate podcasts where they will, like, talk to people about their actual paranormal and stuff stories. I don't know if you ever listened to some of those. No.
Podcast Recommendations and Interviews
00:02:00
Speaker
There's some good ones. Like, there was one I started listening to because... one of them was from the host of night classy. And then um Alec hit the one the host guy started doing one where he's like, it's called matchbook flashback.
00:02:18
Speaker
And he's like, every match light is from a different like person's memory here or whatever. And then he'll go talk to someone about their like possible Bigfoot encounter or their near death experience or like whatever. And it's all these different people across like America usually because that's where they're from.
00:02:34
Speaker
And so it's like to hear people's different encounters in their own words. Ooh, I really like that stuff. But I could never do it. It's so much work to go and find the people and schedule like the interviews and stuff.
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah, that would be a lot to do on a regular basis. I feel like, yeah. And a lot of people have different hosts and guests on each podcast. and Fine if you're, yeah yeah, the celebrities that know a lot of people about Harder if you're just us.
00:03:02
Speaker
but Yeah. Just saying. Screaming into the void. Is anybody there? like Yeah. You would like Amy Poehler's new podcast where she does a lovely little interview where she talks to people. I just listen to hers with Paul Rudd. and very Oh, that'd be fun.
00:03:26
Speaker
they're They're both such funny people. Right? Like, she is very funny, but she is also very empathetic and a good listener and, you know, all these, hate to say it, but good good womanly qualities. And so I'll be like, oh, Paul Rudd, I might get to hear the end of that story he started telling Smartless where someone asked him how he met his wife and then then the two other hosts just started kind of jumping in and talking over them.
00:03:52
Speaker
And then everybody in the comments is like, tell Will Arnett to shut up and let them answer the question. Yeah. Don't you? Every podcast gets this
Humor and Cryptid Interviews
00:04:02
Speaker
kind of feedback. It's not, you know, even the big guys, the smartless guys.
00:04:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's so funny. That's funny.
00:04:13
Speaker
It's great. So hers is a little more one-on-one, right? More conversational, like yours and mine. Nice. I like that. Yeah, they can really get into it.
00:04:23
Speaker
Yeah. So donate on Patreon and we will then invite some cryptids and And interview them. no Exactly. at least some good researchers. Yeah.
00:04:38
Speaker
Anyway, I digress. We'll interview the Loveland Frogman. o
00:04:49
Speaker
and was just thinking about the possibilities. Mothman? Is he available? Yeah. Okay. There's only one of him. He's real hard to get. Yeah, he's booked up. You gotta be around ah an impending disaster, so we'll try and avoid
Point Pleasant and Mothman
00:05:07
Speaker
that. That that bridge or whatever. Exactly.
00:05:13
Speaker
West Point. my god her no Point Pleasant. Point Pleasant, Virginia. i think so. yeah because It always makes me think of that 70s show where they live in something pleasant.
00:05:26
Speaker
Never mind. Anyway.
Mysterious Bodies: A New Story
00:05:30
Speaker
what ah What are we talking about today? And what will you have for us? Let's talk about it. This is not a fun topic, really. know. don't know how segue.
00:05:43
Speaker
ah Yeah, I'm so sorry. ah threw that right to you. you did. Take it away.
00:05:52
Speaker
And we're sad now. Kelsey?
00:05:57
Speaker
Oh, um God. Bring us down. ah Right? What's the weather for, Kelsey? Everyone dies. Oh, no.
00:06:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:06:11
Speaker
uh we have like prime week so we we know that's gonna be the stuff body bodies and in in bags uh suitcases whatever however you wanted to interpret it yeah which bodies found inside of things are unfortunately that person has been dismembered and they're very hard to identify.
00:06:41
Speaker
Traditionally, very tricky cases. It's impressive when they can like, you know, identify as someone based on a torso or something like that. It's pretty crazy. So I'm interested. I'll definitely, like they fascinate me.
00:06:56
Speaker
I don't feel bad saying that, but like, yeah, it's still very sad.
The Murder Case of Mi Quen Chong
00:07:02
Speaker
Uh, my case, uh, I think when I picked it, i
00:07:11
Speaker
I heard there was like a really good documentary that was going to be coming out. Most of the sources were kind of talking about it coming out in a year, like that year. And this was a couple years ago. And i couldn't get access to it. It's on Amazon Prime. And I even tried turning on my VPN and saying I was in different countries. And it kept saying it wasn't available.
00:07:33
Speaker
So... I couldn't watch it. So it's really not on Amazon Prime that you can find anyway. Yeah, um not in any of the countries I could try and pretend I was in.
00:07:44
Speaker
but ah So I'm sure if anybody has seen that, this documentary, um I'm sure there's stuff that they talk about there because they interview family members and people that were close to the case so they always are the best source to go to but unfortunately I couldn't access any of that so I had to go based on like the news articles that were kind of talking about the launch of that documentary ah yeah I've had that last couple cases too I feel like yeah I remembered you mentioning yours recently that had the same kind of thing it was like hey if anybody knows where to watch this so
00:08:25
Speaker
I mean, ideally, I want to be the ones who are like, and then I write a book for this, you know, like, topic or episode or whatever, but it's just like, it's not always feasible to have the time and and the money and the, you know, to do that for every topic we do. So we got to go with what we can find online, which can be tough.
00:08:47
Speaker
Yeah. So this one is the the murder of Mi Quen Chong. ah She also went by Debra.
00:08:58
Speaker
ah But most of the time I will just be referring to her as Chong. And... Okay.
00:09:08
Speaker
um So it starts... Yeah, yeah exactly. you get it. You just look and you go, yeah, she ain't named Debra, okay? So I ain't gonna use the name Debra.
00:09:22
Speaker
Um...
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard to know unless they preferred that one, and then obviously we would use that one, but it's, yeah. Yeah, some sources didn't even have the name Debra, so I wasn't too sure, but...
00:09:39
Speaker
Yeah. i Her remains were actually found in a woodland area by a family while they were on vacation, kind of holidaying oh in Salcombe, Devon, ah an area outside of London.
00:09:57
Speaker
Oh, wow. Yeah. And this was this was her actually pretty recently. This was June 27th of 2021. So, yeah,
00:10:11
Speaker
so yeah just within the last few years. We're in the 2020s, okay. Yeah, post-COVID. Scary times. Yep.
00:10:25
Speaker
So the remains, obviously, i I already said her name. It was the remains of an elderly woman, and her head had been cut off. Oh, And, yeah, after her remains were found, they searched the area and were able to locate her skull,
00:10:46
Speaker
A few days later in some, like, undergrowth kind of thing. It wasn't with the rest of her remains. Oh, and was she, like, fully decomposed in a skeleton at that point?
00:11:01
Speaker
I think just the head was... Uh, cause everything else was fresh. So... oh Uh, we'll get to it. But because it took them a couple days to find, like, her head, i think that's why that was... Like, they kept describing it as a skull as opposed to the rest of her body, like, not being skeletal.
00:11:25
Speaker
So... Okay, darn. Yeah. It's just a matter of time, I mean, really, between one phase and the next, so, okay.
00:11:36
Speaker
Yeah. That's rough. um So the remains that were found were identified as 67-year-old Mei Quenxiong, who also went by Deborah, and she was from Wembley and lived more than 200 miles from where her remains were found.
00:11:57
Speaker
So they were a little confused like why she would have ended up there as opposed to like closer to where she lived and had a house. and Not even 70. Wow.
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah, 67. I mean, and she looked really sweet. There was really only one picture I saw of her that all the sources seemed to keep using, and she looked very... but don't know, she just looked, like, warm and friendly.
00:12:28
Speaker
She's got, like, beautiful... Grandma's age. This is my mom's age. Like... Yeah, she's got like beautiful gray hair and a little bit of lipstick on and some fun earrings. And she's got a nice smile. She just, I don't know, she looks like a ah nice person that was just enjoying their life.
00:12:49
Speaker
Yeah. like Oh my gosh, that certain generations, like my my friend Anita at work, who is closer to my mom's age, so in her 60s, but her mom is like adamant about having lipstick on.
00:13:02
Speaker
so much that she'll like call her like Anita well I thought we got some to- today but I'm out I can't go I can't do anything it's but she's like it's the night time mom like I'm off work I don't this is not I don't need to get you lipstick right now we can get it to you tomorrow she's like well just can't and it's just like my god I don't know I and well she's a certain age too and yeah getting to a bit of a point but it's like oh my gosh yeah they're really dedicated to that lipstick we can't let the men know that we poop we're fine oh my gosh that probably that generation yeah always put together yeah a so
00:13:50
Speaker
they start kind of um they must have done an autopsy or something i didn't really run across any information about that it just kind of said that the her body had or it appeared she had been battered to death like hit over the head with something yeah just really violent it sounded like um and they also noted that her head appeared to have been cleanly cut from the rest of her body so like i assume like no hesitation it was
00:14:25
Speaker
done well by somebody that knew what they were doing, not just like somebody in a fit of rage or something.
00:14:36
Speaker
Yeah, I would assume it was after the actual killing, more as a to dismember and get rid of the body type of situation.
00:14:45
Speaker
I would hope anyway, almost. Oh. Yeah, Chong was last seen actually exercising on Chaplin Road on June 9th.
00:14:57
Speaker
So that's how they, because she was identified pretty quickly, and then they started kind of piecing together when she may have died. um have to commend, like, at least in London and maybe surrounding areas. They have a whole lot of CCTV cameras. It seemed to be up on every street and every neighborhood.
00:15:18
Speaker
Because there's a lot of footage and and pictures you can find for this case, ah which came in handy. ah No, that's interesting. Actually, just...
00:15:32
Speaker
fun fact was finishing my book as i was finishing my supper which was were like oh kelsey i'm sorry i'm late it's like eight o'clock we're gonna go record and the uh book it's set in the uk and uh also fun fact was apparently written by and actress who was ah appears in downton abbey which i don't watch but i was like wow this is a really great book you're obviously multi-talented But she went to a place to turn on this phone that she found that probably belonged to some criminals. And she went to a place in London that was like apparently the busiest like Wi-Fi, you know, spot like a cell phone, whatever activity hotspot in like all of Europe. And it was like this one square London.
00:16:17
Speaker
like london I don't know if it was like Leicester Square or whatever. it was like, oh, wow. Kind of smart lady, but... Yeah. yeah She also didn't know what she was doing.
00:16:28
Speaker
Anyway, so that's just funny that you mentioned the CCTV, because I have heard that a lot, too, that, like, they are covered in Britain in, like, cameras and stuff, so... I am mean, in if you're not doing shady shit, it's, I think, good.
00:16:43
Speaker
ah sorry so yeah i mean i don't mind i'm walking down the street whatever i i could be on footage it's not a big deal to me if somebody's gonna try and abduct me or attack me i'd like that to be on film so they can try and find who did it that's true there's always the upside and the downside to argue with that stuff i feel like because then you're like now my face is on this or just my face is on AI or someone could use my face and so people always see the doubt. Yeah, like I wouldn't want any of that hacked or sold or anything like that. but
00:17:18
Speaker
yeah But um but the in this case. Yeah, no, sometimes people's alibis have been checked out because they were yeah there's the one where they were in the stands at the ah Curb Your Enthusiasm filming or whatever and that was their alibi because they were like in a football game sort of situation they were filmed in the crowd and they couldn't yeah i can't remember they could they they ruled them out of the crime because they couldn't have been there because they were on the curb your enthusiasm like set yeah whatever it was crazy that's cool anyway yeah
00:17:52
Speaker
Yeah, it definitely comes in handy in this case. i So it was noted that Chong had lived in Wembley for more than 30 years.
00:18:04
Speaker
So she had been here, yeah, since like her mid-30s.
Suspect Gemma Mitchell
00:18:09
Speaker
And um um unfortunately, i don't really have any more... much background ah about her but um same yeah she did seem had tough time finding that stuff yeah didn't wembley stadium because the spice girls played there ah wembley love it i just know from that's the like tennis matches and stuff isn't it that's a big tennis tournament wembley oh yeah i think so yeah the yeah the tennis opens oh
00:18:44
Speaker
Yeah. So British. So we enter our other main person in the case, which is Gemma Mitchell. ah She's 38 and she met Chong while they were at church together. ah They were both devout Christians and they stayed ah friendly over the next year or so, came became a little closer.
00:19:09
Speaker
um and Mitchell began acting as Chong's spiritual healer. Yeah. yeah to Red flags. yeah Right? I was just like, ooh, what?
00:19:23
Speaker
ah And so your partner? Your romantic partner? No. No. Oh, okay. Didn't seem like it.
00:19:34
Speaker
wasn't sure. No. Mitchell confided in Chong about her finances, and there's a couple different things. Most of the...
00:19:48
Speaker
a lot of the sources said that Chong had either said she was going to sign over her home in Wembley, ah to Mitchell in order to avoid some sort of inheritance tax.
00:20:03
Speaker
um Then there was other sources that said that Chong had agreed to lend Mitchell about $200,000 for renovations towards her $4 million dollars or £4 million pound property that was like in dire need of renovations. So she's like, I will lend you...
00:20:23
Speaker
or give you money. um And then she later her kind of backtracked and was like, actually, I'm not comfortable with that. And yeah, I'm not really sure which one's true or not.
00:20:37
Speaker
ah That's a tough spot for sure. It had been kind of going back and forth and Mitchell continued to pressure her for over it kind of multiple times over the next year or so.
00:20:50
Speaker
Until finally on June 7th when Chong told Mitchell that she was not going to do it. do it So I don't know if that is referring to like giving her the money or selling her her house or oh something along those lines. I heard something online that was like like kind of like sage advice. Like maybe don't lend money if you maybe can't like expect not to see it back.
00:21:16
Speaker
Because yeah. I guess extreme situations like where you might not just lose the relationship, but that things might escalate to the point where yeah well they yeah they say like don't set set a limit you're comfortable with and uh make an amount that if you never get it back that it's not going to be detrimental to you because unfortunately that's how it goes but yeah and it's that's why it's like community and stuff when someone does trust you with stuff like that makes like you feel so good i think nowadays where i'm like yeah
00:21:52
Speaker
if someone is willing to like, even it's just my mom, like lend me money or whatever, I'm just like, good. You trust me. That makes me feel good. Or like you, or they'll say like, yeah, you get a new neighbor and like, sometimes maybe you should go borrow a cup of sugar from them because then they'll feel good for lending it to you, which I i don't know. I always thought it kind of sounded like almost a bit of hooey, but I was like, i don't know.
00:22:15
Speaker
Oh yeah. Like um ask them for something really small. so because then they'll feel helpful and like yeah yeah wasn't quite yeah it's a nice thing to do yeah i think people feel good about that kind of stuff uh yeah so this yeah this has like kind of goes more of a bad way unfortunately ah sideways yeah so she changes her mind she tells ah mitchell that either she's not gonna sell her the house uh which stuff had said had been in her family for generations um
00:22:58
Speaker
And stuff. Or no. No, there was another, there was like a third side that said that Chong was trying to tell Mitchell that she should sell her house that had been in her family for generations and enjoy that money instead of like putting money into the house to renovate it, like sell it instead and buy a different house.
00:23:19
Speaker
don't know. It was very weird, but it was money. Money motivated. ah it's like yeah yeah yeah I'm gathering that part yeah so it's somewhere around June 7th they get together they have this kind of tough conversation between the two of them and later that night Chong is reported missing and then for the next two weeks Mitchell hardly leaves her home so acting quite suspicious
00:23:52
Speaker
And reported immediately missing after their and meeting. or Yeah, I'm not sure who reported her missing. Chong did have like a ah he was classified as a lodger. It was like this guy.
00:24:07
Speaker
um ah can't remember. Something did mention his name and his job, but I can't remember what it was. ah But she seemed to he seemed to be like living there with her and like um I don't know how big her house was or what, but Might have been like renting like renting a room or something like that. within And you have a landlady. Because I mean I have dated guys that were renting a room is a you know a non apartment situation. It's like yeah you're definitely going to notice if your person that lives right above you and right in the same house as you is not home at their normal time.
00:24:42
Speaker
For sure. ah Yeah, so she was reported missing pretty quickly. um But Mitchell ended up during this two week time period, she had made false a false report via email to a missing persons charity, and also sent a WhatsApp message to Chong's lodger, ah notifying him that Chong...
00:25:04
Speaker
had told her that she was going to leave town and go ah spend time with her family and that she wouldn't be back for about a year. so just like, bye. no, honey. Just like, no. This is not the 1800s. You can't just send a letter and say your lodger is dead yeah alive, rather. yeah And not dead.
00:25:28
Speaker
They've just gone to bigger and better things. like On no notice at all. This is the 2000s. right Yeah, 2001. That's not how this is done.
00:25:38
Speaker
You don't send a WhatsApp message. ah ah The internet was new, though. We just didn't know. It's like before DNA, right?
00:25:49
Speaker
They're like, oh, yeah, I'll just come all over this crime scene. No, I don't know. But really, like, so much more careless. but Yeah. ah Other things. What did it say? Oh, it said that she said something about... ah That Chong would be ah visiting her family and staying by the seaside.
00:26:11
Speaker
which they're just like, is really... um They're like, oh yeah, and that was really bad because where her remains were later found was almost seaside. so it was like, oh, fuck you for that.
00:26:24
Speaker
ah Yeah. I feel like he was... trying to be honest in some way, but it just leaves a really bad taste in your mouth.
00:26:36
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know. Gross. ah So Mitchell, she had learned ah studied human sciences sciences sorry at King's College in London. Love sciencing.
00:26:50
Speaker
Yeah, sciencing. The sciencing of science. the Learned osteopathy, which is... oh my god i forgot what it was i did look it up it's a bone a bone thing right um yeah i think it's the yeah because there's like osteoarthritis isn't it like old people old people medicine osteoporosis yes drink your milk your bones are frail him a bones of a bird no that's the person from 30 row oh uh yeah and then it was weird because on mitchell's website she also like boasted about how she had become an expert in body dissection and stuff through her
00:27:39
Speaker
teaching that she had received. I was like, oh, great. and Yeah, why don't you boast about that some more on your website?
00:27:48
Speaker
Yeah, also, I don't think we still need that in the 2000s. I think we can figured that out. Are you self-employed? ah why do you have a website? I don't think there's a lot of body snatching that goes on anymore for medical science.
00:28:02
Speaker
Yeah, I thought that was a little weird. I was like, oh, weird. So... so It sounds like during this conversation they had that Chong was attacked and killed ah by Gemma Mitchell on June 11th.
00:28:17
Speaker
And ah once Chong's body was identified, Mitchell obviously, like, emerged as the prime suspect and really probably the only suspect after investigators were able to speak to those who knew um chong and kind of like what was going on with her life right before ah she was killed and so pretty quickly mitchell uh gemma mitchell and was arrested so now now they just got to build the case against her really about yeah um
00:28:52
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not sure how much of this they had before they arrested her. um But a lot of this came in, was just talking about like, this was revealed in court and this was shown in court.
00:29:07
Speaker
So okay um I don't really know where and in what order some of this information would have been found. But I did piece it together the best I could about like, what order some of the cctv footage that they have of what went down like i mean i like get it i appreciate when someone has a good timeline and you can be like i tried it was so confusing because i found pictures and stuff that had little captions and it was a hundred percent out of order and i was like but you said that this one one picture took place like three different times of the day on the same day already and i was like what's happening
00:29:50
Speaker
I remember doing the research for the Patreon battle one where I was like you said in a different part in this website conflicting information on how many people died in this battle I remember that I was like yeah try as you may like you'll still end up with uh 1100 1300 highlanders were killed yeah we're seven uh yeah god dira yeah so would have loved to maybe one day the documentary it'll get added i think it was amazon yeah i'm pretty sure it was amazon prime that it was on
00:30:32
Speaker
ah Maybe it'll get added back again, because I'd love to be able to watch it. It sounded like it was a ah limited series, like multiple parts. ah So i yeah.
00:30:44
Speaker
ah Wouldn't it be nice?
Investigation Intensifies
00:30:46
Speaker
So getting into like what they kind of revealed in court, ah jurors were shown footage of Gemma Mitchell walking down Chaplin Road, ah where Chong lived.
00:30:58
Speaker
ah Starting at about 6.23am where she was pulling a large blue fabric suitcase and then she was kind of disguised. She was wearing a hat, a scarf, and a backpack and walking like up the road that would be heading to Chong's house from where Mitchell lived.
00:31:19
Speaker
was walking down the street with a big huge, huge suitcase. Da da da da.
00:31:27
Speaker
With wheels, without wheels. Yeah, already this sounds little awkward. ah Mitchell returns, or sorry, Mitchell turns to the row leading to Tronk's house.
00:31:39
Speaker
um And prosecution said, quote, we can see there that she still has her with her the blue suitcase, um because this is a little later on in that day.
00:31:51
Speaker
But we can see much more clearly in this footage that she has a face mask, ah one of those surgical face masks on. And they continued saying she's walking at a normal pace, pulling the suitcase on its own wheels.
00:32:04
Speaker
And the cloth of the suitcase ah itself doesn't appear to be bulked out. Dot, dot, dot. At this stage. So you can imagine where this is leading. Yeah.
00:32:16
Speaker
Okay. It's not packed yet. No.
00:32:23
Speaker
uh five yeah it is kind of chilling to look because you can watch the full footage of her just like dad da da da walking down the street and then like five hours later walking down the same street with multiple bags and different change of clothes and suitcases appear to be full that's the real walk of shame honestly yeah it's like what the fuck like yeah so bizarre um yeah so five hours later at about 1 13 p.m she reappears on the footage now with two suitcases in tow they're appearing much heavier harder to pull she's kind of like pulling them behind her ah one and with each arm ah mitchell is seen wearing a face mask and sunglasses
00:33:12
Speaker
ah She has her backpack on again because at one point she's caught like not wearing the backpack and ah not wearing the hat.
00:33:22
Speaker
She's just wearing like sunglasses or something. it was weird. um So I think she kind of like maybe left and then came back and then this was caught again doing stuff.
00:33:34
Speaker
um yeah she's dragging the suitcases around and this second smaller suitcase is red and is later said to contain financial documents uh that she had stolen from chong's house like her will or like um financial papers because uh mitchell later like forged a will that was naming her as like beneficiary and stuff so okay yeah gotta get rid of that evidence yeah yeah uh cct a cctv officer told the court that at this point the blue suitcase appeared to be much bulkier than it was in the footage from the morning and at one point quote had to be kicked back by her foot to try and get it to move like
00:34:26
Speaker
so like kind of get it started you know when something's heavy and you kind of push it with your foot and then like pull it so that it kind of tilts so you can get it going uh yeah you push a car out the ditch yeah like yeah i think that's what he's kind of describing oh god uh at this point they also note that there's something black covering mitchell's left hand
00:34:51
Speaker
Um, yeah. Which comes into play in just a moment. um Mitchell was captured on other CCTV footage of different streets, dragging the bags along the streets of London, and then through a grass verge.
00:35:10
Speaker
Maybe that's like an embankment or something, for about two hours. wow she's just Yeah, verge. I don't know what a verge is. oh I forgot to look that up. i also learned a word today that was glurge and i was like that's a weird slang word i've never heard of ah so anyway no this is like a grass verge um okay yeah but she she's like caught on the ccd footage dragging these heavy suitcases around for two hours
00:35:44
Speaker
Good lord, my girl. What are you doing? what ah Before she's picked up by a taxi, um then ah they catch her up again right outside of her house um where a camera across the road picks her up, getting out of the taxi and dragging the suitcases kind of onto her property and into her house, it appears.
00:36:09
Speaker
house that she apparently shared...
00:36:13
Speaker
No, this is her own house now. Like, she was leaving Chong's house for two hours. And now she's at her own house. Seriously, do not bring it closer to your own house.
00:36:26
Speaker
Right? Yeah, it did note that the house she... So you're good. ah It did note on one of the sources that the house ah she shared with her mom...
00:36:43
Speaker
And that the suitcase and everything may have been buried in the backyard. um at some Yeah, but I don't know about that because I was only in one source and i I read it somewhere and then I couldn't find it again.
00:36:58
Speaker
so oh that's annoying. Yeah. Yeah. It's something I was trying to verify as well. and i was like, oh, never heard that again. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. um So catching up with what I said about ah Mitchell's left hand being covered by something black.
00:37:18
Speaker
So that night after she got home, Gemma Mitchell went to St. Thomas Hospital in central London the day of the killing to receive treatment for a broken finger, telling the um personnel there that she had shut it in a door and broken.
00:37:37
Speaker
um and Okay. Okay. I mean, that fucking hurts. I feel like I've slain my finger in a door. and Yeah. Went out to see some play or something with mom and this guy she knew was like, oh, that must suck. And he was like holding my hand and being like, you closed it a door.
00:37:56
Speaker
I just wanted to be like, yes, stop holding it. Yeah.
00:38:02
Speaker
Does this hurt? No. Yeah, I don't remember why we were like at the playhouse in Fredericton, maybe? i don't... Couldn't tell you why, but I do vividly remember having slammed my finger in a car door or something.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah, that really sucks. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it seems more likely that... Because it said that Chong was like battered to death, like she was beaten to death, basically. So it seems more likely...
00:38:33
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Sorry. right
00:38:58
Speaker
Are you looking for your next true crime podcast? Do you crave stories that have mystery and suspense? Well, look no further, introducing Love and Murder, the podcast that dives deep into the world of relationships gone horribly wrong. Every week, I take you on a journey through the dark side of love, where passion turns into obsession, families become enemies, and romance turns to murder.
00:39:26
Speaker
From mysterious mysteries to suspenseful suspense, I dive deep into cases of love gone wrong. So why should you listen to Love and Murder? Because this is not just another true crime podcast where your partners in crime, not guilty, your storytellers and your weekly dose of suspenseful entertainment.
00:39:49
Speaker
How many times have I said suspenseful? So what are you waiting for? Join the Love and Murder family and become part of the Lamb community. Tune in every week for a new episode that will keep you hooked.
00:40:01
Speaker
Go ahead, hit that subscribe button now. Love and Murder, because you're either someone's last love or their first murder. Love & Murder, available on all major podcast platforms. Not for true crimers under 18. Must be an apple juice drinking enthusiast, but not really. Side effects include enjoying another true crime podcast, becoming a lamb, learning logic on how to deal with your problems in a healthy manner, and not turning to murder. Waiting for the next episode of Love & Murder to drop every week. Visit our website at www.murderandlove.com. And remember, all love and no murder.
00:40:28
Speaker
See you soon.
00:40:57
Speaker
weird i i don't have too much more i'm like not yet okay uh yeah so she goes hospital ah Tells them she slammed her finger in the door and broke it um So there's footage of her like standing kind of at the entrance of the hospital.
00:41:24
Speaker
and then ah jurors were told that the blue suitcase that she was seen wheeling down the street was not seen again until June 26, 15 later.
00:41:36
Speaker
fifteen days later um And she was also caught on footage on that time ah after she had rented a Volvo.
00:41:49
Speaker
Volvo. And ah she had gotten a white... Not a placement. Sorry. Right? For all your body moving needs. Yeah.
00:42:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:05
Speaker
So she got like a white sheet, she laid that down in the trunk of the vehicle, and then was seen struggling to lift the suitcase into the back of the car. so that's from the Yeah, no doubt. All on good old old CCTV footage right in front of her house.
00:42:22
Speaker
What a dummy.
00:42:27
Speaker
I just love her, I'll get to it, but I love her... um
00:42:33
Speaker
her, like, defense counsel. Like, they... As the as the girls in Crimes and Consequences sometimes say, they were... Because they're lawyers, they say you're polished in a turd.
00:42:46
Speaker
ah Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. They're... statements about what was actually going on and's part of the reason i want to see the documentaries because i i hope they interview her defense people because they're just insane get to it it's so stupid i'm just like what the same way about sinister hood um one of them has a background in law they both met on improv and they're from texas so yeah polishing a turd there's all sorts of expressions that come out yeah
00:43:17
Speaker
great look at that oh they're just polishing that turd to do that i'll tell you that much i love that fixing yeah fixing it versatile
00:43:36
Speaker
So Mitchell was seen on CTV, driving that rented Volvo down, uh, Bennett road in, uh, Salcombe, Devon, which was 200 kilometers away near where Chong's body was later found.
00:43:54
Speaker
Right. Uh, I guess along the way she suffered a flat tire because there was CCTV footage showing, the vehicle in a repair shop and the repairman changing the wheel of it before she's back on the road again, continuing her trip.
00:44:12
Speaker
Just so much footage. ah She was also captured on cameras inside a service station shop near Bristol.
00:44:24
Speaker
um Kind of like a convenience store type deal. Eventually she's seen on Bennett Road ah just meters from where Chong's body ah would be discovered the next day.
00:44:37
Speaker
so like that's why I say like the... Remains of the the body other than the head like were not decomposed because it was less than a day from when they were dumped. right But the head, her head was found a couple days later. So that's why that I think was a little decomposed.
00:44:56
Speaker
And those meters, that's just yards to you American folk. That's not very far. Yeah.
00:45:04
Speaker
uh and originally i was a little confused because i thought she dumped the suitcase but the suitcase wasn't left there she it was kind of just more used to transport so um but it was in the bag it was in the bag uh for quite a while <unk>s like two weeks and two weeks um The court also heard that Mitchell had called nine different taxi companies before she found a driver who agreed to collect her and take her back home. um The drive was about approximately 90 minutes away.
00:45:43
Speaker
So it sounds like she rented the car to get her to that Solcombe, Devon area, and then she couldn't use it to get back. So she kept trying to call a taxi to like take a taxi back home.
00:45:55
Speaker
Okay. ah But because it's like 40 minutes away, that's going to be a lot of money. And I think most taxi drivers probably wouldn't pick you up because chances of you not being able to afford it are probably pretty high.
00:46:10
Speaker
yeah like, it's not unheard of to have a trip between like cities, for example, but I feel like... 200 kilometers is a long ways. Yeah, yeah,
00:46:22
Speaker
For that type of trip, you might ask for an advance, especially if it's not a regular client of yours. Yeah, regular passenger, for sure. yeah So it sounds like she's called like nine different taxis or taxi companies before she found a driver who would agree um to take her this trip.
00:46:38
Speaker
And she did find one and arrived back home in London shortly before 7 a.m. on June 27th. So that was the day that um remains were found I think was the 27th so she arrived home like probably just a few hours before um the court also heard that oh no that's the same paragraph I just read the the blue suitcase was later recovered on top of Mitchell's neighbor's shed ah in the pocket
00:47:16
Speaker
At the front was a blood-stained blue and white tea towel that had traces of... Yeah, like the blood had traces of Chong's DNA in it that was identified. so um oh and it's on top...
00:47:36
Speaker
of On top of the neighbor's shed. i was just... Because up until then, I thought her remains were found in the suitcase. Because again, there wasn't a lot of details for this. So I thought her remains were in the suitcase. Yeah, yeah.
00:47:50
Speaker
apart from obviously her head but yeah yeah when they're like yeah and i only saw one source that said that the suitcase was found on top of the neighbor's shed and i was like wait she wasn't in the suitcase like right so yeah oh my gosh like long lost remains is a topic i feel like i have heard about in other cases too where they're like like say a body gets buried and they don't get reunited with their head until um many many years later and then they're like now her skull is buried but yeah it's like what? that's some like ah Sleepy Hollow the Headless Horseman type stuff it doesn't feel great it doesn't feel like great vibes yeah um
00:48:38
Speaker
But yet it happens. yeah ah This I kind of already mentioned a bit. The court was told that Mitchell had made herself a forged will, which listed her as the main beneficiary of Chong's estate.
00:48:53
Speaker
okay yeah oh this is where i have it so jemma mitchell denies being involved with the murder ah mitchell declined to give evidence at her trial but her defense claimed that the prosecution had failed to prove her involvement or that chong was even murdered oh yes because people often put themselves in suitcases drive themselves without a head 200 kilometers away and then fucking great prove the that's a common suicide and then they drive themselves off a cliff yeah wait yeah i was like the prosecution failed to prove that she was even murdered i was like what statement am i reading
00:49:42
Speaker
And I read that in multiple sources. You lost cutoff head and drive self away. Yeah. I was like, the fuck? I get if you're claiming that she's not involved, but you kind of... There's so much footage of it.
00:49:56
Speaker
But that she was even murdered. Cool. Great. It's like this... ah one I want to see this horrible category of these supposed suicides that get deemed that by police for whatever reason.
00:50:14
Speaker
And then you're like, but that couldn't possibly be. So why? Right? Yeah. so But they agreed that she died on the 9th, but her body wasn't found until the 27th. But was she murdered?
00:50:31
Speaker
It's like, her body wasn't found for 15 days after she died, but was she even murdered? Come on. Oh my god Like, what the hell? She cut off her own head, put herself in the suitcase, drove herself.
00:50:44
Speaker
200%. No! Yeah, I'm just like, what am I even reading? This is not gonna get any better with my case. I know. i think I know what 10 years is.
00:50:57
Speaker
So, I was just like, damn. this is a horrible topic and i don't have a fan picker to blame it on like wine and crime where they're like you did this to us i chose this to me that's what was like god i hope if i can ever get a hold of that documentary i i hope they talk to her defense counsel because i want them to explain how she wasn't murdered oh that's wild vicious deaths that are ruled as like yeah accidental or whatever where you're just like and no no no should still be undetermined at the very least yeah boggles the mind yeah uh gemma's mother hillary collard it said who despite the wealth of damning evidence continues to plead her daughter's case
00:51:50
Speaker
Like, oh, great. So her mom believes that she isn't involved as well. um There's literally footage of her casually, like, walking down the street, talking on the cell phone, pulling the suitcase behind her like it's no big deal, and then cut to footage of her barely being able to move it because it it's so heavy.
00:52:14
Speaker
and she's, like, struggling with it for two hours and taking all of these breaks. Yeah. Is that the mom hauling it or still? No, the daughter.
00:52:24
Speaker
But it's like you're sure saying there like why are you just
Gemma Mitchell's Trial and Sentence
00:52:29
Speaker
walking down the street for five hours with the suitcase? Like, stupid. And there's literally footage of her leaving the house with like going with the blue suitcase and then coming out five hours later with the blue suitcase and then you track her movements.
00:52:49
Speaker
like oh that's just stupid um don't be suspicious don't be suspicious that's all they've ever learned i was like in 2021 like what are we doing really though there was a detective chief inspector jim eastwood who led the investigation He had a couple quotes saying ah Mitchell has never accepted responsibility for Deborah's murder.
00:53:20
Speaker
So there are questions which remain unanswered. ah think these are the questions he has. Why she kept her body for a fortnight. Why she decapitated her.
00:53:31
Speaker
Why she deposited her remains in Salcombe. ah what we do know is that these were evil acts carried out by an evil woman and the only motive clearly was one of financial gain.
00:53:47
Speaker
Like, manipulating the will to, like, kind of put herself as the beneficiary because they had had arguments about money. Right, yeah. And couldn't ah clearly wait for her to die on her own.
00:54:03
Speaker
No, no, she had to kill her. Yeah. hey right um The jury deliberated, I guess, for like eight hours. And on the 28th of October, 2022, in the first televised sentencing of a woman in the UK.
00:54:19
Speaker
thought that was kind of interesting. ah Gemma Mitchell was convicted of murder at the Old Bailey. Must be a courthouse. And sentenced to life imprisonment with a minimum recommended sentence of 34 years.
00:54:33
Speaker
Kind of love that. Kind of love it when they call it the old Bailey too. Yeah. so I had a cat named Bailey. And she was old.
00:54:45
Speaker
And then sometimes I hear people be like, it's in the jowl. As in the jail. G-A-O-L. And I'm like, yep, that's sometimes how they spelled it.
00:54:56
Speaker
They didn't necessarily call it the jail. Have you seen it spelled like that? No. No. That's so weird. It is weird and some American podcasters that have come across and are like, what does that mean?
00:55:12
Speaker
and I was like, I think it's just an old British spelling. But then watching that word and trying to pronounce it gives me a giggle. Yeah. ah Yeah.
00:55:27
Speaker
on. I just want to see if I can find the
00:55:35
Speaker
Oh, two-part... Yeah, it's a two-part special. Hold on, I'm just opening the one of my source links to talk about it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, A&E Network commissioned a two-part special titled Body in the Suitcase, The Murder of Deborah Chong. Yeah, and it was supposed... I think it was aired on television, and then and was put on...
00:56:05
Speaker
Amazon Prime. But yeah, I couldn't get access to it, but I feel like they probably have more information in it if they were able to talk about... it um Like talk to family and friends and everything, which it sounds... I thought I saw somewhere that it said that they talked to a bunch of people involved with the case, so... Yeah.
00:56:29
Speaker
Yeah. But... Which is always nice to have that info. It's... Yeah, it's ah creepy kind of like watching her walk down the street. Because they don't even just have pictures. Like, they have full the full footage kind of like spliced together. um Different pieces of it.
00:56:52
Speaker
And it's like, oh. Like. Okay. That's a really heavy suitcase. It's a huge suitcase. Like.
00:57:06
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I'm picturing, like, a super big duffel bag or whatever. Yeah, well, it's, like, I mean, it's, yeah, not quite, like, duffel bag style, it's still, but it's still, like, um, on the larger side for suitcases, for sure. God. I didn't even look at pictures from that. It was hitting home.
00:57:32
Speaker
It was, like... I know, yeah. Yeah. It's just so senseless sometimes. They just seem to get killed for basically no reason or whatever. Yeah, it's like because you got in an argument with a woman you knew for like maybe a little over a year over money because you thought you were entitled to it.
00:57:55
Speaker
Can you the amount of deaths if people didn't argue about money and not to like... Talk about how we should all have, like, a universal income or some sort of socialist, like, whatever. I don't know.
00:58:12
Speaker
But, like, yeah, it's crazy. It is crazy when they talk about the way things like that affect, like, crime. Like, when people are, oh yeah for example, allowed to get abortions and then have to raise...
00:58:27
Speaker
kids that they can't afford and how like the ripple effect of some of that shit just causes people to be like well now i have to steal i don't know like christmas presents for my kids or whatever you know like you just hear about this crazy And then how many people you look at them and go, oh there're they they shouldn't have been a mom. And it's like, yeah, but did they have access to get an abortion?
00:58:49
Speaker
Did they want to be a mom? Or did you force this upon them? like Totally reminiscent. I was looking to earlier with talking about Chicken Soup for the Soul that came out in the 90s. And it was...
00:59:04
Speaker
uh yeah the the girl that hosts you're wrong about but she was on it american hysteria podcast they were just like yeah it was kind of like and do good and one of the inspiring stories was the a guy who looked up to his um idol and he he was like and i'm Or i was like, oh no, oh no, it's OJ.
00:59:23
Speaker
they were like, Orenthal James Simpson. I was like, oh yeah, no. But like, I do remember in the 90s, the chicken soup for the soul books everywhere. I do. I had.
00:59:36
Speaker
Yeah. um i had a couple collections oh ah because apparently there was like 75 iterations like teenage yeah i had a couple of them i had the i had a teenage soul one and one of the other ones i can't remember it got garage sales decades ago yes I think I used to read them at like other people's houses. i don't know. and't Yeah, there's only so many times you can read the same stories in a book. so
01:00:09
Speaker
Yeah, and they had, and like, I was interested to hear, anyway, they had good points of how like it was basically, you know, other people, you know, and MLMs and being like,
01:00:21
Speaker
we know the secret to making money buy our book and we'll tell you you know yeah that kind of thing yeah yeah you're just an MLM or literally the the craze that was called the secret because it was just like manifest what you want and that's what the guys that wrote those books were like they were like and then i put a thousand dollar bill that doesn't exist but on my or whatever and like ceiling at night I would look at it until I made it and you're like yeah But then you also worked hard and had some luck too. So, you know.
01:00:56
Speaker
That just reminded me. um At my work the other day, a customer came in and they had a bunch of old money. bills? Very, very old. They had an old $2 bill. like yeah barry very old they had an old two dollars bill and they wanted to pay with it and i was like um your collection like whoa yeah and they're like yeah it was like they said it was some family members they're just trying to get rid of it and i was like you know these are like it might not be worth like it's not gonna be worth a thousand dollars but it could be your two dollar bill could be worth fifty dollars like if you don't want to pay it's not modern currency yeah
01:01:40
Speaker
Like, I think in America, they have $1.50 a dollar bill. And, like, so if you have one still left, yeah, that would be the equivalent of, like, something that's a rarity. Yeah. um So she's like, yeah, i just want to pay with it. And I was like, I was like, ah I have to find out. Because I know, like, they devalued, like, pennies. Like, pennies aren't valid currency anymore and stuff so i was like just got rid of them shit yeah yeah so i was like i don't know if they ever did the same with a two dollar bill i was like i'll have to check with my manager like if this is even valid currency like i don't really know and i asked one of the manager and the manager was like no we can accept it and i was like okay thank you and i told her because she's like oh we're not from this city and
01:02:28
Speaker
all that kind of stuff. And I told her, I was like, do you know where like the mall is? Because I was like, there's coin places in the mall, and they'll buy them front. And they'll give you probably just like not anything crazy for it but they might give you like 10 bucks for each of the twos or something i said don't spend them like take them there i was like it's nearby just go ask and she's like okay i think i'll do that like was like yeah like well they have money exchange places like once we stopped doing so much currency exchange uh like our old job there like yeah they were just like go send them to the calfrax the west emington mall or whatever
01:03:11
Speaker
and they're like Yeah, because there's like different places there that like, people collect it. So you might, like my dad has like a bunch of the special like quarters and that kind of stuff. So i and he knows they're not worth like a whole bunch of money. But sometimes each of those 25 cents could be worth yeah yeah sorry like each of those 25 cents could be like 30 cents uh but it'll be more than those damn beanie babies that we are all we're like well maybe and they're like no we tricked you because they're not scarce and they're not rare so they're not worth anything we just ghastlate you we're like thanks yeah yeah totally yeah
01:03:57
Speaker
So did we say welcome back? Welcome back.
01:04:04
Speaker
As I yawn. i know, I feel ya. I forget about what we were editing, but we've definitely been recording for another 27 minutes, and some of that was the end of Kelsey, so...
01:04:19
Speaker
um Anyway.
The Mysterious Death of Gareth Williams
01:04:21
Speaker
This is my spy-in-the-bag story, which is aka the case of Gareth Williams, also out of the UK, just like yours was. Oh, yeah.
01:04:36
Speaker
I know. Yep, yep. The British, we can't stop. So, Gareth Williams was a talented mathematician.
01:04:48
Speaker
know, they like to say maths, and we just say maths. Yeah, I was just going to say maths. Yeah.
01:04:57
Speaker
I almost heard, yeah, I think I heard some podcasters, like one was British and they're like, yeah, I think you add an A to it. Math, uh, Matician. We don't know. We just say mathematics.
01:05:08
Speaker
I don't know if there's an extra A in there, but that's just how we pronounce it. That's how I felt. um no, but this dude was obviously way more classy. He's a British, um actually from Wales.
01:05:24
Speaker
Once we get into it, but talented mathematician, codebreaker, and MI6 agent all together. Yeah. Right? He could definitely get it.
01:05:38
Speaker
He was also a member of the LGBTQ community. so he was a very fit, smart, dedicated employee who never missed a day of work and is kind of cute. Should I put up the pictures now?
01:05:57
Speaker
go for it i don't i i think i know the case i don't know if i necessarily have seen any of the pictures ever associated with it but i've heard it covered a couple times yeah well yes so have i and i had like you mentioned it to you as maybe the in impetus or whatever for us covering yeah um oh shit um
01:06:23
Speaker
Yeah, because think you told me what one you were covering, and then I was like, okay, I will not cover that one. I'll cover anything but. one of those ones where you're like, i don't know if we need a category to cover this, but yeah, it's very interesting, so I want to
01:06:42
Speaker
Welcome to Drive. That is our drive.
01:06:46
Speaker
I am a bot, and these are my bops. There's ah
01:06:51
Speaker
There's a show show that started up. It's not Smartless, but it's called Clueless. And they were like, oh, fuck. can't multitask. And it's like it's got's it's basically just a clue guessing game and stuff. And so sometimes they just have bot bops. And it's just um like Alexa reading you out song lyrics. you have to guess what song it is, which makes it really hard, in my opinion.
01:07:17
Speaker
oh God. Cause you're like, it doesn't normally sound like this.
01:07:25
Speaker
Spy, there we go. Oh, that's the one. Upload, upload!
01:07:31
Speaker
Sorry. I'm
01:07:39
Speaker
just putting on hand cream while I wait. My hands have been so dry today. Oh my god. No, it's so funny that you say that. um When I was listening to and watching on Spotify the Amy Poehler pod, because sometimes Spotify will have a video if they have it available. So anyway, hers did.
01:08:04
Speaker
and she would a couple of times she had girls on, she was like, Oh, and I'm just getting on my lip balm. Lip balm break? As they both thought lip balm. And I was like, God, you're so relatable, Amy.
01:08:18
Speaker
ah Kelsey was How do you keep it so real? She didn't do that this last one. That was the one with Paul Rudd. But they did simultaneously, like, drink their tea, which was cute.
01:08:32
Speaker
Adorable.
01:08:35
Speaker
Good. Paul Rudd's been on such good shows. like he Like Friends and Parks and Rec and... I know, she talked to him about that. And I was like, yeah, I don't hardly remember that. And then she was like, it was only five episodes. and I was like, and they talked about character and the Bobby. And I was like, oh, yeah. yeah Bobby of Newport has never had a real job.
01:09:00
Speaker
Yes, that was in the comments. Give it to me. Give it to Give it to me. Give it. Give me. she had Catherine Hahn on, too. And, like, I forgot that she was on Parks and Rec. God.
01:09:13
Speaker
oh my god yeah she's the campaign advisory advisors something like that yeah so funny i love katherine hot she's hilarious and amy willis just so cute she's like gives people open up but then she's like talking about how fun it was and i'm just like i love you seem like such a good time no wonder your podcast is called good hang seem good Aww, that's cute.
01:09:43
Speaker
Yeah, what called. Anyway, I'm out here doing the Lord's work, promoting Amy Poehler's new podcast. She doesn't need our help. She doesn't need our spotlight. No, and I swear, that's what fucking Will joked when they were on SmartList. They were like, what?
01:10:00
Speaker
You're the secret guest? Not me, who's, you're my ex-wife? It's Sean who got you on here? Well... i just wanted to get you on it's like a good hang or whatever and then she's like then i have a new podcast and they're like oh that's why you're on here couldn't get you on before now that you're you couldn't promo yourself yeah yeah but seriously it's so good because yeah she lets people get a word in edgewise
01:10:32
Speaker
ah rather than those guys sometimes okay yeah um sorry so back to gareth williams who it basically was the benedict cumberbatch of this movie a talented mathematician code breaker and mi6 agent to
01:10:55
Speaker
I don't like him though. ah But he was also yeah member of the LGBTQ community. He's very fit, smart, a dedicated employee who never missed a day of work.
01:11:07
Speaker
Well liked by his coworkers and loved by his family. um So, although I don't have much more about his home life or early life, it seems like it was weird that it took a week for people to notice that he was dead and missing.
01:11:23
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Similar. I mean, we know. We know if somebody's going to turn up in a bag, but this is like sad.
01:11:35
Speaker
It's very sad that it wasn't noticed or a reported, I should say. Because it probably was noticed by his job. If he's working at MI6, which is basically who Bond works for, I think. Like, it's the foreign intelligence of Britain. Yeah.
01:11:54
Speaker
This not good. So... ah Oh yeah, it kind of falls into that category cory we were just talking about. The seemingly impossible suicide.
01:12:06
Speaker
Excuse me. Yeah. Right? How is this of that? Yeah. Because they might have been able to kill themselves that way. Just because they might have doesn't mean they probably did.
01:12:18
Speaker
why? Yeah. why Makes no sense. I kept, you know, one of the ones that haunts me still from researching only was the one with Phoebe Hanschuk in the Australian crimes.
01:12:34
Speaker
Very early in, she's like, yeah, found at the bottom of a garbage chute and everyone was like, well, just even if she was depressed, that's not how she would have killed herself.
01:12:45
Speaker
That's insane. And yet, it had like the stink of suspicion or whatever so they're just like no it's cool oh it's impuriating so he was hired by very um prominent companies first he worked for the gchq or the government communications headquarters and um sounds like an FBI of Britain or sort of whatever. Yeah, I don't know what that is.
01:13:16
Speaker
Or maybe the equivalent of like the NSA in the UK. I don't know. He started working for them in 2001. So it's definitely high up. It's very secure. It's their...
01:13:29
Speaker
ah Yeah, very elite ah intelligence agency of whatever form. um oh yeah. Their website says, Welcome to GCHQ. We are the UK's intelligence, security, and cyber agency.
01:13:42
Speaker
Our mission is to help keep the country safe.
01:13:47
Speaker
Oh, wow. That's boring. Now that read it out loud, it sounds like something the yeah robots would write. Yeah. Yeah. just god our Our jobs are too exciting. We need a boring website to deter people.
01:14:03
Speaker
Can you handle it? Yeah. um At the time of Gareth's death, spoiler alert, in 2010, he was on something that's called Secondment.
01:14:19
Speaker
he was on something that's called secondment Second want. No, I don't. But it's like when you're working for one company and they kind of like loan you out in a temporarily assigned role to a different organization, but you retain your originally ah or original employer and benefits, I should say.
01:14:42
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yeah, so like, if you just kind of were made to work at a different office almost, I would equate it to, I guess. Yeah, you're helping out, you're on loan. Yeah, because his original job was the GCHQ, which I kept having to abbreviate, which is the Government Communications Headquarters.
01:15:06
Speaker
ah so I would assume that was the Britain's internal... security agency but then he starts working at mi6 which honestly still sounds to me like a movie thing but like again right yeah like super secret service and so he's like on loan to them for um the year It said, yeah, it means an employee is temporarily assigned to a different role of organization while retraining their original employer and benefits.
01:15:39
Speaker
And at the time, he was living in a two-bedroom flat in Pimlico, London. So quite cushy. It's actually a two-bedroom flat, which, as you'll see if my upload worked, it has two floors.
01:15:54
Speaker
So... Not always the with two-bedroom apartment. Yeah. Oh, no. and just got a little another error message. No!
01:16:05
Speaker
With the space. I didn't. You did? Yeah, I don't know why I'm getting them. It's so frustrating because everything's not working for me this week. No.
01:16:20
Speaker
No, it's still recording on my side, but...
01:16:27
Speaker
I could stop it. all And I also don't have... and feel like that much
01:16:38
Speaker
left.
01:16:48
Speaker
Okay, yeah. So you you got some of the pictures? Or i did you put up the pictures? Yeah, i can see them. Okay, yes. For the next part, it is helpful um because when they were called to do a welfare check the police on the two bedroom flat in Pimlico London where Gareth lived they were hit with an intense heat in the face like an oven baking you know when you open that oven and you're like yeah yeah and it was also very strange because this was like mid August so the heat should probably not have been on
01:17:28
Speaker
It's just... Yeah, I would... Or at least turn down. i mean, it's London. It can't be any much further north than most places in Canada. Like, we're in the we're in the southern part of Canada. Like, it's not, like, it's not gonna get super hot, but, like, yeah.
01:17:49
Speaker
don't know. I don't know where I'm going just They shouldn't have the fucking heat baking on August. That makes no sense to me. They get in there and it's on full blast despite it being August actually. That's the full story. so Very weird.
01:18:09
Speaker
oh And upon searching for Gareth in this welfare check They can't find any sign of him in the apartment anywhere ah other than there's like mostly cleaned up rooms, a stained in the bathroom,
01:18:32
Speaker
a um stained like ah cloth in the kitchen, and also a bag in the bathtub. so yeah Yeah.
01:18:45
Speaker
There's a zip-up red North Face brand suitcase type bag in the bathtub that is no bigger than a small duffel bag, or I would say medium suitcase, yet it was zipped up and padlocked from the outside and oozing a dark red liquid.
01:19:02
Speaker
and as you might have guessed, inside was the body of Gareth. ah He was also completely naked, and the key to the padlock was underneath his right buttock. And he was in an advanced state of decomposition.
01:19:17
Speaker
Gross. So right away, it's like very confusing to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's ah so obvious that there's some foul play, at least I'll say.
01:19:33
Speaker
the Yeah, like in the little little, like, diagram of the house. It's got some points. And I don't remember ever hearing about these in any of the other times I've heard this case covered. And I was like, what? Why did they leave this out?
01:19:49
Speaker
Oh, my God. I loved seeing a diagram thing on this one. Like, the main website where i get most of my information was actually the sun, which I hope is not a super...
01:20:00
Speaker
terrible tabloid but i don't i know it might be a british one i know wow but i also like have heard it on different podcasts looked up other sources like i've i have looked up other sources and things but like it is just crazy there is no denying that i will say yeah um so well Yeah, it's it is extremely sad. Like, he's just found mysteriously locked up in his suitcase in the bathtub. Also naked, it's worth noting.
01:20:38
Speaker
um Yes, the key to the padlock was under his right buttock. He was in an advanced state of decomp and quote, many questions have been raised about how the maths prodigy, who was 5'7", which like 3 inches taller than me.
01:20:55
Speaker
Not that tall. But still, managed to squeeze into the bag that was only 81 centimeters long by 48 centimeters wide. End quote. Hmm.
01:21:09
Speaker
Because why? Yeah. just
01:21:14
Speaker
there's no way you can give me a case like this and just try to feed it to me that it is suicide. And I know that's going to expose my bias, but I'm sorry. just, just, you know, i did get a lot of, like, I don't know. I did get a lot of, um, information from the one, article that I read, which was great.
01:21:37
Speaker
I had heard about the case, so I was familiar with it, but then I was like, yeah, this is really good. And, and Oh yeah, it was the sun. I said that, but yeah, it was good.
01:21:55
Speaker
Forensic search and rescue specialist, Peter Faulting attempted to squeeze himself into a hold all quote unquote of the same make 300 times and failed admitting it was very, very difficult to do.
01:22:10
Speaker
He said, i couldn't say it's impossible, but I think even Houdini would have struggled with this one. Which I think is pretty telling. If you're not like a trained contortionist, it would be quite painful to hold any sort of position like that.
01:22:27
Speaker
and I would like to say, even if you are, why would you make your final act some sort of show where you're like, I can't just kill myself, I now have to do a final trick as the like yeah and then like you even if that was how you're planning on killing yourself what are you gonna starve to death inside of it like how are you supposed to be ending your life absolutely no one chooses yeah the route that makes them like torture themselves to death that's insane yeah it makes no sense yeah
01:23:08
Speaker
Now it's frozen you, so you've been sitting with your hand in your forehead. I'm sorry.
01:23:19
Speaker
It's appropriate.
01:23:23
Speaker
Oh, okay. This did explain some stuff. Okay, so he was very smart. um Where did we get to here?
01:23:33
Speaker
where did we get to
01:23:36
Speaker
Okay, yes. So in this case, there was a ah odd things like no DNA found around the area the bag was in not in the bathtub that the bag was in, and nothing in the bathroom, almost like it had been wiped.
01:23:51
Speaker
But there were semen stains seamens stas outside the tub that had not been cleaned. So I guess there was a patch of jizz on the bathroom floor.
01:24:03
Speaker
Seems weird. ah Fabulous. Right?
01:24:09
Speaker
I swear to God, you're still frozen. Your thing just says you're still sitting like this. No. No.
01:24:17
Speaker
Which is thoroughly important at the moment. Kelsey still looks like she has her hand on her forehead.
01:24:25
Speaker
Oh my god. Okay. um Stranger still. DNA from two unknown individuals was ah found on the padlock and zip of the bag that the Gareth was found inside of.
01:24:44
Speaker
Like his body was found inside of. Yeah, so not suicide?
01:24:51
Speaker
How on earth? Exactly like Phoebe. How on earth could you put yourself into a tiny place and then ah simultaneously like wipe every trace of you out around it?
01:25:03
Speaker
I just don't get it. Yeah. um Other weird things... ah pop We don't know what he was working on in the MI6 because...
01:25:16
Speaker
you know secrets. But ah we know that they found multiple memory cards, sticks, USB sticks is what I would normally call them.
01:25:29
Speaker
um And they were found at the scene of the crime, and there were actually nine of them, in fact, so there were quite a few. of suspicious. Yeah. It's not the devil's number. No, I don't know. But...
01:25:44
Speaker
nine memory cards when he is found dead they also found two sim cards one laptop and one cell phone which had been quote-unquote wiped and they found an unidentified person's semen on a green towel in the kitchen which i was like riddle me that why there unidentified semen that is not a suicide
01:26:09
Speaker
Yeah, I don't remember hearing about semen in the bathroom or in the kitchen on a towel before. it
01:26:23
Speaker
I heard it on a couple podcasts before I ever tried researching it. And I thought I heard that he was missing for like a meeting that he was supposed to lead, but I honestly couldn't find that in my research. So I don't know, but yeah, that is definitely, I think an interesting point, which comes up on one of those diagrams where they show where it was found in his kitchen. like Yeah. Like on the floor of the kitchen.
01:26:57
Speaker
yeah is does they Is that the washer and dryer though? Like in the corner of the kitchen? that kind of looks like the washer and dryer. they do that in the UK a lot. They have like the laundry in the kitchen.
01:27:10
Speaker
is that what is that why maybe it's there? Because it's laundry. didn't remember seeing any laundry. Did my... ah Wait, we're is the thing on the drive now?
01:27:23
Speaker
Is this me? 188 body in a bag? Pfft. don't know. Well, that's you with the suitcases. that Did my pictures come up at all?
01:27:35
Speaker
Yeah, yours is called Spy. Oh, God, I can't even see it now. I was like, wait, I thought there was one that kind of showed how it was like a two-bedroom apartment.
01:27:47
Speaker
God, I can't see anything.
01:27:51
Speaker
Um...
01:27:54
Speaker
It was found in a bag in the bathtub, but then like other trace DNA was found in the kitchen on a towel, which didn't seem to have any trace.
01:28:06
Speaker
Whatever. Sorry, I can't find it. have pictures right now.
01:28:14
Speaker
But... The...
01:28:20
Speaker
I still got you stuck. Um...
01:28:26
Speaker
I don't know. The pictures, when I saw a diagram, to me, I can understand something a lot better. And i was like, okay, he was found upstairs. There was also stuff found downstairs. It just all was not adding up to me. So I'll try to get the pictures up there on their social media and stuff as well.
01:28:48
Speaker
The ones that I found from the the one website, anyway, that were like, you are here, he is there. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah.
01:28:57
Speaker
Because, like, I was like, oh for two-bedroom apartment, like, some of it was upstairs and some of it was downstairs. But also, he's found it in a bathroom.
01:29:10
Speaker
All his laptops and stuff are found on, like, his kitchen table. You know what I mean? Like, it's just...
01:29:18
Speaker
To me, it seems very staged. I don't know. You're gonna be found dead in the bathtub... And your laptop's maybe sitting out neatly on your like kitchen table or something all lined up with all your phones and stuff. I'd be like, what the fuck?
01:29:33
Speaker
but Yeah, that's a little weird. Yeah, I'd be like, Kelsey takes that laptop everywhere, but still. ah Yeah. If I'm watching something, it gets balanced on my bathtub while I go to the bathroom. And you'd bring it to the bathtard slide your room, too,
01:29:52
Speaker
i would imagine Sometimes, yeah.
01:29:58
Speaker
Only if I can't sleep, because I don't have a TV in my room, so I'll be like, oh, if I'm not feeling good and I can't yeah sleep, I'll curl up in bed and ah watch stuff on it, but... I'm tempted to go to sleep in this guest room, because my goddamn... Sorry, I was away from the mic. My goddamn mattress is so old.
01:30:18
Speaker
My back is so warm. Anyway, um
01:30:23
Speaker
I'm not 40. We'll get over it. Gordo, you gotta stay over there. Back it up. Gordo, riddle me this. We just know there was an unknown person's semen on a green towel in the kitchen. That's where we left off.
01:30:38
Speaker
That's what I'm not too sure about. There's something happened. don't just end up with unknown semen on a towel. If that's somebody having calm in your house for some reason.
01:30:50
Speaker
my god.
01:30:53
Speaker
um
01:30:55
Speaker
For whatever reason, I had that this was where the G's, like, explaining what the British levels are.
01:31:05
Speaker
From what I can average, he was extremely smart in math and would have, like, passed high school at a very young age in Canada. That's what I got out of Oh, okay. Yeah, like, really smart.
01:31:20
Speaker
They kept saying he can play these things at this age. And I was like, I don't know what a GCSE is. ah You know, so. Oh, whatever. That's the GCSE is the like high school diploma.
01:31:35
Speaker
That's like your finals. Like in the UK, I guess. Because I was like, yeah. I don't know. I thought maybe it was equivalent to like, don't the Americans have the SATs, which just.
01:31:49
Speaker
apparently tell them how smart or not they are. Like, it's all very confusing to me. But,
01:31:59
Speaker
but no um so all that to say that Gareth the protagonist of our story was very smart extremely skilled in like math and STEM and that sort of situation and he had completed a doctorate in computer science at age 17 which I can understand that like he's very smart right Um, also comes up in the research, uh, because of the way he's found, we're talking about things, you know, in a, in a little bag and stuff and, uh, all that stuff. So they're like, um, if he's found kind of compartmentalized or,
01:32:46
Speaker
It's terrible, but like all locked up in a box, they're like, well, what about the fact that he has a predilection for BDSM? Like, you know, bedroom stuff, which does come up in a lot of sources, but obviously is like to anyone that knows kind of doesn't really have any duffel bag.
01:33:07
Speaker
Anything about anything, really. Yeah. Doesn't mean you should turn up dead in a duffel bag or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah. yeah there's like no there's i and to go along with that i do have some good quotes okay i'm like a duffel bag is the weird part I mean.
01:33:33
Speaker
um yeah know he had a sister. i not sure if it's pronounced. Carrie, but it's like C-R-R-I. Carrie Subay said he was meticulous about risk assessment and does not believe he put himself in that sort of position.
01:33:50
Speaker
I know most people have a thing. Wouldn't? But yeah a lot of i guess what a lot of sources kind of point to is when there was an incident where his he cried out because his landlady excuse me was home and he was tied up to his bed frame and she had to come untie him at like 1 30 in the morning so I was like, literally, that's the kinkiest you get. Like, I, you know. And he's like, oh, that that didn't work. Let me put myself in a duffel bag for attempt number two.
01:34:29
Speaker
like Completely. It's such an exaggeration. so weird. Yeah, there's some, like, quotes. There was one...
01:34:41
Speaker
Agreeing with her, the professor Anthony Glees from the Center for Security and Intelligence Studies told the doctor, The doc is in the documentary that I also couldn't watch.
01:34:55
Speaker
Because of his professional training, because of his skill set, Gareth Williams understood about risk. And if this had been a mad auto-erotic adventure, he would have taken a pen knife or something like that with him as he got into the bag. I was just going to say, he would have had a knife or...
01:35:15
Speaker
Just as like, yeah, an intelligent person that, you know, plans ahead, I guess. I would think so. Or you wouldn't have padlocked it. You would have just zipped it closed and been inside.
01:35:31
Speaker
like you wouldn't need to be padlocked in there. my Also, at what point does your suicide plan include zipping yourself back up in a bag and then padlocking it for some reason? It just makes no sense.
01:35:46
Speaker
I never get these cases where they're like, yeah, must be accidental because that's easier for us or whatever. Yeah. Um.
01:36:00
Speaker
just have to finish this because my thing, my screen is still stuck and you just look like you're still so over everything because you're stuck in this one position. No.
01:36:13
Speaker
okay um alejandra oh god sarmentio a psychosexual specialist told the doc that believing a fondness for bondage could escalate quote-unquote to being locked inside a bag was parallel to the assumption that if you take weed you'll end up on heroin yeah that's what i mean not exactly but like oh yeah step attempt number two zip up in this duffel bag and let's padlock it i'm fucking harry houdini over here all of sudden it was my gateway crime yeah
01:36:54
Speaker
um damn oh he was so young too The death of the 31-year-old was deemed to be unnatural and likely to have been criminally mediated ah as determined at his 2012 inquest. yeah um Former MI5...
Cover-Up Theories and MI6 Involvement
01:37:12
Speaker
Why they have MI5 and MI6? Just to confuse me.
01:37:15
Speaker
Former MI5 intelligence officer Annie Matron tells the documentary, everything about this case absolutely absolutely stinks of a cover-up.
01:37:29
Speaker
she cited them refusing to allow gareth's callings to be interviewed by police and not disclosing details from nine personal memory sticks found inside their headquarters yeah so there's that basically they found nine usb you know things i like and that's a lot of shit She also pointed out how it took seven days to alert authorities that he was missing.
01:38:00
Speaker
Quote, she told the documentary in terms of Gareth Williams absence for a week before it was noticed, he was not coming into MI6. I think that's appalling. I remember working at MI5. If you didn't come in for one day, they would get panicked and say, what happened?
01:38:15
Speaker
What's happened? Has something awful happened?
01:38:19
Speaker
Colin's sick. Just Colin's sick. No. No. Yeah, I remember the last time I heard this, that they were kind of alluding that MI6 didn't alert him missing because they were the ones that covered up his murder in the first place. So why would they be panicked about where he was? They knew exactly where he was.
01:38:44
Speaker
I would have to ask why it would take you like, you know, five, six, seven days when your employee hasn't been to work. And yeah the one thing I thought I heard on one podcast that I couldn't find in any written sources was that he missed a meeting that he was supposed to be like the head of the meeting and they still didn't call it in. So i was just like, oh, this is like, yeah, it totally reeks of corruption and cover up. Yeah. Totally.
01:39:12
Speaker
totally Somebody has absolutely no history of being late not showing up or anything like that. It at least warrants a phone call.
01:39:24
Speaker
Yeah. Like... Are you alive? but Yeah. yeah oh my god. um So yeah, that's basically what everyone I think thinks.
01:39:37
Speaker
Yeah. but
01:39:40
Speaker
Alarm bells should have been ringing to the extent that on the day one of him not turning up, calls should have been made. There's a series of protocols that follow through in that instance, said one of the co-workers, I think. The GCHQ received a call from Gareth's sister stress that she could not get hold of him, and it was only five hours after that call came in that they did anything. So not until his sister called did they actually the alarm. Wow.
01:40:11
Speaker
Three employees were summoned to the inquest, including his manager known only as Witness G. writing.
01:40:21
Speaker
Witness G expressed regret over not raising the alarm sooner. um The boss said his employees had never missed employee had never missed a day of work, but excused his absence on him being stuck on a train, adding, in hindsight, knowing what I know now, should I have taken action?
01:40:38
Speaker
Absolutely. la
01:40:41
Speaker
Stuck on a train. but i Yeah.
01:40:49
Speaker
ah The one source saying that he was like supposed to head a meeting. i could not find anything... in detail about the week that he was supposedly missing that they didn't call him in sick and they were like huh he hasn't been to work in like a week like that's the biggest yeah he hasn't he hasn't done anything he hasn't called us he hasn't sent a single email he hasn't contacted anybody We don't know if he's alive. Oh, wait. Yes, we do.
01:41:17
Speaker
Like, yeah, it's very much a reason conspiracy. The only reason you wouldn't be concerned is if you already knew what happened to him. Yeah, exactly.
01:41:28
Speaker
ah And like, so that's why I'm like the boss being like, in hindsight, had I known what know now? Should I have taken action? Absolutely. I'm like, what?
01:41:40
Speaker
What did you know? know. yeah no if you have protocols in place you should have followed them yeah sorry you work for like MI6 or whatever who are not very forthcoming ah don't tell us what's on the memory sticks yeah sorry at my job if you're more than 15 minutes late you get a phone call like you should are you alive yeah yeah
01:42:14
Speaker
um It said that MP, I guess that's like here, maybe Member of Parliament, Norman Baker said, the interesting question is why MI6 appear to be so willing to impede a police investigation and prevent the real facts about this matter from coming out.
01:42:30
Speaker
And you have to conclude that they were there were security reasons why that should be the case. Dun, dun, dun.
01:42:41
Speaker
And here's the the prevalent theory. I think what Gareth may have stumbled across is the identity of a Russian mole in GCHQ, and I believe he would have told his MI6 handlers about that matter, and they would have been fully in the picture.
01:42:57
Speaker
That being the case, the Russians would have concluded perhaps that Gareth Williams had to be disposed of in order to protect their source within GCHQ Cheltenham. That would give a reason for his disposal.
01:43:12
Speaker
So he's a spy. Gordo's being a shit. Gordo, did you look at me?
01:43:23
Speaker
Did he see the diagram? No. I don't think so. No, it's fine. i just For me, I love a picture and that if anything has like a diagram or something, I'm like, don't know.
01:43:36
Speaker
ah help I understand now. But it is weird, because he's found in the bathtub, all the shit he owns, like a laptop and a phone and stuff, i don't know if I got to that, but they were on a table, like all neatly lined up in the living room. It's just all very, very strange.
01:43:54
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
01:43:59
Speaker
um So, basically...
01:44:07
Speaker
It's one of those ones where like I don't think people are going to admit it. They're like, some people say they have some doubts. um Yes, he may or or may not have ah exposed a Russian agent. That is some people's theory as to why he might have needed to have been killed.
01:44:23
Speaker
There was a former Russian KGB operative called Boris Karpachov who said, yeah, he was probably killed to protect the identity of a Russian spy he had found out.
01:44:35
Speaker
And he said he probably was killed by the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service, committed the murder by putting a poison in his ear, introduced in his ear that they couldn't find. In his ear? in his ear. That's i know. so point Poison in your ear.
01:44:55
Speaker
But, like, because apparently that would have been less detectable in some capacity. think I read. mean, how many times are they swabbing ears for stuff?
01:45:06
Speaker
Like, they check your stomach contents, they check you for needle marks. what What are they doing with your ears? Well, and that's if a full autopsy is ordered, I believe, right? Like, that's yeah kind of if you're lucky.
01:45:19
Speaker
um But, like, other people had disagreements. There was a what's dci detective something investigator in britain hamish campbell he disagreed he was the met's head of homicide he said it was not usual for secret agents to kill agents from other countries like they're more likely to kill well they're more likely to kill people on their own soil they're like why would a russian guy come and kill a british operative and i was like yeah i can see that i don't know Like, depends on how you guys do things, right? But they're Russian, no.
01:45:58
Speaker
Well, there was no forced entry, so it does seem professional, but, like, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily Russian or whatever. Also, people have noted that the head of MI6 at the time, whose name was Sir John Saar, and he attended the funeral of the a fallen agent, which might have been a bit unusual, and people might have said, like, well, it's a way for him to say that he was killed in the line of duty.
01:46:27
Speaker
um
01:46:30
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. um And their quote that kind of talked about that was about, but Professor Glees believed Gareth could have uncovered something that led to his death and was too sensitive to be publicly revealed.
01:46:43
Speaker
He told the doc, as in documentary, ah suspect that what MI6 did not want to say was this was an operational death, that Gareth Williams was doing something to put him in harm's way.
01:46:55
Speaker
He agreed to do it and unfortunately paid for it with his life, but the balance was between our national security and giving her the full story. And the decision was taken that national security should win out and has always been like that in this country.
01:47:11
Speaker
And then finally, he also told the doc, maybe Sir John Sowers turning up to the funeral is a sense giving him a posthumous medal at the funeral. John Sowers said, Gareth was a hugely talented person and he was very modest and generous as well.
01:47:28
Speaker
He did really valuable work with us in the cause of national security. The balance of evidence suggests that Gareth Williams should be remembered as a hero who was killed in the course of operations and by enemy action.
01:47:40
Speaker
Oh, sorry, that was a... That last part was not what he said, but what the an article had said. Based on the honor he was given by, like, the head of the, you know, FBI, as you were.
01:47:54
Speaker
And the Spy in the Bag New Revelations was the documentary that I couldn't watch. Oh, no. We're just like... covered uh blocked by country paywalls and uh yeah i want the bbc austin powers it's the bbc
01:48:16
Speaker
one of our old supervisors she used to like get the bbc one something channel and was like oh there's so many good documentaries
Gareth's Death: A Pattern of Suspicious Cases?
01:48:25
Speaker
So now I'm tempted. But anyway, both very, very good, interesting cases and stuff. Yeah.
01:48:32
Speaker
I learned many new things about this case I didn't know before. Do you make it? Sorry, go ahead. To make it more, more confusing.
01:48:47
Speaker
yes that is the annoying part because you will think you kind of get know the gist of something because i think i'd heard it on like two podcasts before i started looking into it so i found the one source and i was like oh that's really good source i practically got all my notes from there and also wrote them really fast because instead of i didn't have a notebook and i was like typing them right up like oh look at me, Kelsey. I'm in the 21st century. Instead of, like, jotting things down and then typing them up, I'm just directly typing.
01:49:19
Speaker
I'm getting done. You could just copy and paste this entire quote. Boom, done. I'm gonna use this whole paragraph. Cite the source. like I know, I know, especially when you're in it. Yeah, quotes are great. I like... And there was just like, oh shit. Yeah, no, this is... Like, it was a pretty good source. I felt like I got pretty much everything. that I was like, I'll just check a couple more and I think what I had more was basically I kind of fact checked and like Buzzfeed said a lot of the same things. Oh, and also that this was part of a larger um article.
01:49:56
Speaker
um like ah not an article itself, but like multiple article news piece that it linked me to the something that was like 14 suspected hits on British soil that the government ignored.
01:50:09
Speaker
So this was apparently linked in a group of deaths that were little suspicious. And apparently BuzzFeed has like an entire investigative...
01:50:21
Speaker
department like i was like wait they have like an actual news uh just lists of what harry potter character you are yeah exactly or or like the buzzfeed unsolved guys or whoever there yeah yeah 20 27 memes that prove somebody's life is we're going worse than yours they're like oh great which is that's what i want to click on to be fair because i want to feel better about myself but yeah i didn't know they did like what seems like real journalism because i end up using them as one source being like
01:50:52
Speaker
wait, and yeah, that's basically what it was. Like, that that's probably, like, it could be linked to other bigger things, which I was like, whoa. don't know, man.
01:51:03
Speaker
We should look into that shit, because that is crazy. But some of it backed up, you know, of the other claims. Oh, there's like, yeah, police are like, oh, he's been on BDSM websites and drag clubs and you know how they try to muddy the waters.
01:51:22
Speaker
and But how does that equal duffel bag? Like, I've never ever heard of somebody locking themselves in a duffel bag. Like, I feel like that's not a thing.
01:51:34
Speaker
It's not. It's totally not. I don't think there's a sexual name for it. I don't think it's a Cleveland steamer. There was... Oh, i but yeah. I put it one thing on where it kind of showed how a yoga instructor tried to fit himself into the the duffel bag thing like 300 times and wasn't able do it. okay. Yeah.
01:51:52
Speaker
yeah like nobody could recreate it it was insane and they're like yeah you wouldn't have had like no dna around the thing if you had actually done it yourself but basically all the updates and inquests i could find they were like yeah no uh we scotland yard looked into it and we we can't find anything it just seems like everybody almost gets like shut up about it don't know yeah very suspicious very suspicious sad too for the poor guy like he looks so fit like prime of his life
01:52:28
Speaker
and Yeah. Just doing his job, too? That's what seems like to me. Yeah, and some people liked him and he was really good at his job, so... And also, what did they do to trick him?
01:52:41
Speaker
Why was there semen in the kitchen? Why was there semen in the bathroom? Did someone... Why of was there no forced entry? Did someone, like, say they were coming over for a sexy party and they just fucking...
01:52:54
Speaker
you know black widow too or like i just don't get it it's terrible i mean that could be like uninvolved i mean if he is like gay or whatever like that could have been before and then this happened later and somebody knocked on the door and came in like if if he did know oh the identity of like an undercover mole that was like in his department or something then that person would Could have been the one that came in and done this.
01:53:26
Speaker
And then because he worked with them, he may have let them in thinking he could handle the situation, but... Yeah, I could see a scenario like that.
01:53:37
Speaker
And they said that maybe he, um because he worked undercover, he might have had to have some like women's clothing and stuff. And so obviously, I think when they talk about details like that, sometimes I just like almost want to leave it out because it's almost like a red herring. You're just like, yeah, I don't think that is the main thing here.
01:53:53
Speaker
like or yeah i saw that on the little infogram i was like i've never heard about that either says like women's designer clothes worth 20 000 pounds found in the wardrobe yeah like in a spare bedroom but if it had to do with his undercover work know or even if it didn't might not have anything to do with his death that you seem like you like you're a very private person when you're working as like a spy and Maybe that's his sister's clothing. his sister looks very nicely dressed.
01:54:28
Speaker
Like... Her in her, like, little pink suit thing. what I know. She looks so elegant. she looks like a little Barbie doll.
01:54:39
Speaker
in cases like this, you're like... They just want
Unresolved Mysteries
01:54:42
Speaker
answers. And they don't want people just, like, speculate wildly. Not that's what I'm saying we're doing. But, like, yeah, it just sucks.
01:54:50
Speaker
It just really sucks that they still... Like, they've had a documentary out about this one that I can't watch, and yeah, it's still not, you know, solved. It's like, ugh. Yeah.
01:55:01
Speaker
I don't know if we'll ever know with this one, or it'll be, like, um something they figure out, like, 60 years from now. Like, they did with the- um didn't they just recently they figured out like the Somerton man case and then we figured out the boy in the box case um yeah that was an interesting one that kind of stuff yeah cause it had some clues that they thought they found the identity I get that but this one I'm just like yeah i am you just tried to cover this up cause you're a shithead i don't know yeah I don't know
01:55:42
Speaker
That's still really weird because you're still frozen. but still recording. But you still look just frustrated. I promise. I promise I've moved. love that her headshot is just like, I'm over this. Head in hand.
01:56:00
Speaker
It's very evocative. Of the feeling you get when you're done a true crime case. You're like, it's terrible. Yeah. But yeah, anyway, i don't know. Do we think we're getting the next one out on time? We might be. i i feel a little pressure when we don't get it recorded by like Monday or Tuesday of the week it has to come out.
01:56:24
Speaker
Yeah. But we picked our next two, so I think next week we should have out to you haunted AF hospital themed crimes.
01:56:35
Speaker
We'll do our do our damnedest. Yeah, we'll see. So... If... If sometimes we have to jaunt in another Darkcast lovely network, that sometimes gives us a little bit of a cushion.
01:56:52
Speaker
Um... um Yeah. Guys, give us a break. It's almost summer and we might be trying to go see a damn movie actually instead just over recording.
Podcast Plans and Promotion
01:57:05
Speaker
the only i was like, oh, yeah. Let's go do something. Have fun. Yes. I forgot how fun movies are. They are though.
01:57:16
Speaker
Yeah. It's nice to get out and about. Yeah, it's been, I think we were, either you and I were talking about that or me and somebody at work. It was like, why are we always waiting for whatever? And like, no this year, let's just get out. You want to go do something? You want to?
01:57:37
Speaker
Go do this. Just go do like We used to go to movies, I think, yeah even before COVID. like Sometimes we would get the extra movie tickets at work, too. and Yeah. I think we would do a few that way.
01:57:51
Speaker
Yeah. I missed that. That was fun. It was. Good excuses, Scott. Also, the Minecraft movie was pretty entertaining, I must admit. Yeah, that's fun.
01:58:03
Speaker
Yeah. Jack Black. I mean, come on. I don't know anything about Minecraft. and I feel like the pixelatedness of it would hurt my head. Because even looking at the characters when we have... And I've seen pictures of it. I was like, my brain hurts.
01:58:21
Speaker
I can't look at it. It's too pixelated and square and... I enjoyed watching it with Rain in the movie theater. um I said to her, like, maybe I didn't super get all the references, but I understood it. It was good.
01:58:36
Speaker
i didn't need to. yeah That's good. Yeah. i had For example, had to explain to her what Viacondios meant, because Jason Momoa's character kept saying that and then being like, that means good bribe, brother. and i was like and the character was like, no, it doesn't. And I was like, no, it doesn't.
01:58:55
Speaker
oh so when we left us at the rain do you know what that means i was like it means go with god and she was like oh yay i explained something there we go yeah she got all the references and i was just like this is cute i knew something knew exactly I'm an adult. No, no, it's a good time, guys.
01:59:18
Speaker
Yeah, let's keep theaters alive. Me and Kelsey going to go to Sinners. and I'm really excited. Yeah, by by the time this comes out, we'll be hours away from watching it, hopefully.
01:59:31
Speaker
so Oh, that's true. ah have yeah to go maybe start working on this and the next notes. And also, um I said that I would help with that weird kind of escape room thing we're doing at work for our next fun thing. So I also have to make a bunch of puzzles.
01:59:47
Speaker
So wish me luck. Oh my god. Good luck with that. I know. have I done? I think my brain hurts. Right?
01:59:56
Speaker
Alright, well, love you guys. Thanks for listening. Keep it rated on Spotify. so keep it rated on spotify listen we still have like 20 fucking ratings i'm just like more than that of you listen to the show go give it a five stars you bastards anyway if you like me listening to us Yeah.
02:00:20
Speaker
And if you are listening to us and you don't like us, what are you doing here? Yeah. Why do you keep coming back? and ah Please hate, continue to hate listens, I guess.
02:00:31
Speaker
Exactly. I think everyone has every listen helps.
02:00:36
Speaker
All right. Bye. Yeah. Bye.
02:01:09
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Castles Encrypted. We love all our listeners and appreciate every subscriber, every new review, every listen, rate and download. Our music is by Kobe Offair and our cover art is by Antonio Garcia.
02:01:23
Speaker
We are also a proud member of DirkCast Network where you can find the best and spookiest of all indie podcasts. Follow us on social media where we are at Castles Encrypted on mostly all of the things now including TikTok.
02:01:37
Speaker
Check out our bonus content on Patreon Cryptid Clashes, video mini-sodes of your hosts making asses of themselves, Ask Me Anything, quizzes, other special episodes, and more.
02:01:50
Speaker
Starting at just $2 a month, you can get one to two extra episodes, depending on your level. We produce, edit, and research everything ourselves, and any support you can lend helps us to keep it cryptic.