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Comics Catch-Up 075: Dawn (1995)
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Yes, we finally did it. We read all six issues of the 1995/1996 Dawn miniseries. It's somehow both surprisingly impressive and just as bad as we expected.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Promotion
00:00:00
Speaker
This show is recorded using Zencaster. If you are a podcaster or you want to be a podcaster and you want to be able to record remotely, you can do so using Zencaster. They also have hosting options and you can let them know that we sent you. Follow the link in our show notes or in the episode description and sign up for an account on Zencaster now to start recording your own podcast.
Comics Catch-Up Segment
00:00:28
Speaker
Oh, my God, it's comic. I think it's a puzzle. This is Comics Catch-Up. Hey, twerk. You better not be mine. Come on. It's in my comics.
00:00:52
Speaker
Where we read comics suggested by you, the listeners of War Rocket Ajax, that we have missed.
Introduction of Hosts and Comic Series Discussion
00:01:01
Speaker
Oh hey, it's been a while.
00:01:03
Speaker
Let's catch up. Comics catch up, that is. This is the sideshow, the spinoff podcast of the War Rocket Ajax podcast, where we read the comics that we missed out on, whether it was something recent Something from before we were born, or something that we only read about in the pages of Wizard Magazine. My name is Chris Sims.
00:01:27
Speaker
With me, as always, is Matt Wilson. Matt, I'm excited to talk about this, because we have not talked about it. We have not talked about it. we Only briefly. Only briefly.
00:01:40
Speaker
In ah text message. it is ah It is a texter's choice, for sure. This is the moment you've all been waiting for. This is the catch-up you've all been waiting for. It's the one we've been talking about for years now.
00:01:57
Speaker
Potentially doing. We've been talking about this for years. yeah Because it comes up all the time when we talk about Wizard Magazine.
Overview of 'Dawn' Miniseries
00:02:07
Speaker
this but What we're talking about on this episode of Comics Catch-Up is the 1995 six issue mini series Dawn by Joseph Michael lynz Lindsner originally published by Sirius Sirius Entertainment which I believe is Joseph Michael Lindsner yes I believe that is his yeah imprint his own publishing company it was later published as a trade paperback uh
00:02:46
Speaker
Dawn Lucifer's Halo. um Although I guess that was also published by Sirius. There were there were later Dawn things published by Image. But this one, I guess, was only published by Sirius Entertainment, just Michael Lindsner's own publishing imprint. and as i And also as I understand it, this is the one that actually...
00:03:15
Speaker
focuses on Dawn and tells Dawn's story after Cry for Dawn just kind of featured her as a character in an between stories in an anthology. Like like an Elvira.
00:03:29
Speaker
Kind of like an Elvira, yeah. Okay.
Metaphorical Elements and Artistic Debate
00:03:32
Speaker
um Matt, I got a couple things I want to say right up front. Let's hear it. First of all, just since since I'm thinking about it right now and I'm going to forget it, after Hickmania, whiz kids...
00:03:44
Speaker
Now, what is that going to be? That's where we read every issue of Wizard Magazine. ah That sounds like a terrible idea. I think it sounds great.
00:03:58
Speaker
I think we should read something with a narrative. ah But it's going to be a long time before Hickmania is over anyway. so Yeah, we've got we've got years of Hickmania to look forward to. Now, this is interesting. um Before... Okay, so Cry for Dawn was an anthology. Mm-hmm.
00:04:14
Speaker
Followed by Dawn, the six-issue miniseries that is actually about Dawn. ah which Which was then followed by Crypt of Dawn, which goes back to being an anthology. So she's like the Crypt Keeper?
00:04:30
Speaker
I mean, that that seems evident, yes. That's gotta be the bit, yeah. It's gotta be the bit. um And then Dawn Three Tears is the image book that came out in 2003.
00:04:43
Speaker
Now, you said you had ah another observation.
Character Analysis: Dawn
00:04:47
Speaker
ah so So let's hear it. Is less an observation more of a question for you, Matt?
00:04:53
Speaker
Did you like this? No. Okay, I kind of did. i said this in our text thread. i or Yeah, in our text thread.
00:05:04
Speaker
because Because you had just read it and you were kind of talking about some stuff in it. And it is both... Better than I expected, particularly art-wise.
00:05:18
Speaker
And also just as bad and incomprehensible as I expected it to be. Okay, yes. Is it bad and incomprehensible? Yes, absolutely. That is a fair cop.
00:05:29
Speaker
Yeah. Is it bad and incomprehensible in a way I kind of like?
00:05:38
Speaker
It... The answer is also also yeah yes. Yes, yeah. he there's Here's the wildest thing about Dawn. The comic I think i have read in my life that is most comparable to Dawn in in tone, in art, in many ways, is Fist of the North Star.
00:06:01
Speaker
You know, I can see that. it's got It's definitely got some Fist of the North Star in it. If Fist of the North Star had a woman in it, it would be Dawn. Yeah. I mean, interestingly, Dawn – I said Dawn was a series about Dawn.
00:06:21
Speaker
It's kind of not. It's It's actually just about this dude who's the lead character. Whose name I have already forgotten. Yeah, because he's nothing. Like, he's – his whole deal is that he's forgotten stuff is, and Dawn is here to help him remember, as we were told in the multiple choice questions we were given a while back. Um, but like Dawn is kind of just in the background of this throughout. Like we, we never quite figure out or find out like anything about Dawn.
00:07:00
Speaker
Like, We know that she was in love with this guy, that they're like mythical lovers, and she's a goddess, and her whole deal is to try to get him to remember who he is as like the god of war. And that's sort of kind of it. That's sort of kind of all we get about her. like She is a very enigmatic character in the book about that that is named after her.
00:07:25
Speaker
Yes. Very true. And... I don't know. I feel like that's very typical, I suppose, for um indie comics from this time.
00:07:42
Speaker
now Now, you say it's it's it reminds you of Fist of the North Star. I don't think that's totally off the mark. um But when I was reading this...
00:07:54
Speaker
I couldn't help but think that this was a comic book assembled entirely from the art and aesthetic of heavy metal album covers. And all that that entails, good and bad. That actually makes it sound better. like that You say that, and I'm like, well, dang, why didn't you like it?
Aesthetic and Narrative Complexity
00:08:15
Speaker
I mean, that's why I say i'm so i was surprised by how much I enjoyed the art at part in places. um Because it it is very much that aesthetic. It is very much, especially when like demons start showing up.
00:08:28
Speaker
Oh, yeah. it's some It's some real Eddie kind of looking stuff. no Go ahead. Now, there there is a there is an issue that I have with the art, which is that I can't... This isn't me being... This isn't a diss.
00:08:51
Speaker
Matt. Okay. So don't don't, I know you're thinking it's a diss. It's not a diss.
00:08:58
Speaker
I genuinely cannot tell if the fact that God and the devil look exactly alike yes is yes is cool and interesting, or if the fact that they also kind of look exactly like the main character of the book is That yes it is a is an illustration of Joseph Michael Linsner's shortcomings as an artist. His limitations, yeah yeah. I mean, I would say that he can only draw one dude, but that's not true.
00:09:31
Speaker
No, he does draw other dudes. He can draw other dudes, but I think he can only draw one kind of like blonde pretty dude.
00:09:43
Speaker
And so, yes, the protagonist and God and the devil all look like that. Which also might be intentional because he's also a God. Yeah.
00:09:54
Speaker
ah Yeah, that's part of it, I guess. i I get the whole God and the devil looking alike thing, and it's going for that like Doctor Strange. Yeah, I was going to say, it's like Doctor Strange Johnny Storm.
00:10:06
Speaker
Explaining to Johnny Storm how heaven and hell are the same thing. Uh-huh. like it's it's like that i think um but the fact that the protagonist also looks like them like he should look different i think yeah but and it's also it's it's also kind of hard to tell because it's you know on uh a 90s indie comic printed on newsprint and it's it's colored and it's actually like colored really well.
00:10:36
Speaker
there there There are parts that are full color, and then there are parts that are colored in this sort of like monochromatic style yeah um that I don't dislike. um i i I think it's a cool aesthetic. no i think but I think we can agree that like our like art-wise, Lindsner is better at sequentials than I thought he was going to be.
00:11:00
Speaker
Well, ah especially having so mostly seen... kind of like posed static paintings. Yeah, I think we have seen statues of Don more than we have seen sequential images of Don.
00:11:14
Speaker
He is not bad at that. He is not bad at that type of art. um it it it It definitely has a kind of,
00:11:28
Speaker
I don't know, i static, I guess, is the word for it, quality to it, where like,
00:11:35
Speaker
motion looks kind of weird, like fight scenes look kind of weird, but um he he is better at the at the sequentials than I would have given him credit for, mostly having known him before reading this as a painter. yeah um and And mostly having seen like cover art.
00:11:52
Speaker
um yeah i yeah you You say heavy metal album covers, I think ah like spot illustrations in nineteen eighty s British fantasy.
00:12:04
Speaker
It also, yeah, it definitely has kind of like... There's a lot of warhammer in this. If I was going to compare it to anything, I guess it's heavy metal. Not heavy metal music, but heavy metal magazine.
00:12:17
Speaker
it's It's got that kind of feel to it. so Shockingly, no nudity in this. which No nudity. Which, you know, great, fine.
00:12:28
Speaker
um I definitely would have expected it.
Darian's Journey and Surreal Encounters
00:12:32
Speaker
i I didn't, Matt, and I i will tell you why.
00:12:40
Speaker
i feel like if if we were going to see Dawn naked, we would have already seen Dawn naked. Well, i I can tell you by having looked through Cry Dawn, which is all black and white art, largely. um It is in there. Yeah.
00:12:57
Speaker
Wait, is Dawn naked in there? I don't know if Dawn is, but there is definitely a community in Cry for Dawn. We're not seeing – that's like – you got to commission that.
00:13:09
Speaker
but Perhaps, yeah. you You don't get that for – what's the cover price on this? $2.95 or whatever? $2.95 1995 money? wo that that's ah That is a ah ah pretty pricey book. Let me let me see here.
00:13:26
Speaker
It's $2.95. No, continue talking. I'm just going to look something up real quick. Oh, you're going to do the the in today's in today's dollars? No, i'll just keep keep talking. Okay.
00:13:36
Speaker
Well, let's talk about the narrative of this a little bit. um Let's just get into it. um The book starts with the protagonist whose name I will find in a minute. ah Because it's definitely not in the first couple of pages. um But he wakes up for a from a dream. Matt, your DC and Marvel Comics and in 1995 won 95. So this was a dollar more than that.
00:14:02
Speaker
that's ah That is a 33% price increase. Okay. um i'm I'm going to just quickly do 1995 to 2025. nineteen ninety five to twenty twenty five i like...
00:14:16
Speaker
I like figuring out things specifically in terms of how many comics you could buy. Yeah. Because like there's one there's like ah ah a contest in Metamorpho where you can win $18.73. It's a very specific number like that.
00:14:33
Speaker
And like if you spent that entirely on comics, in today's money, it's like $4,000.
00:14:46
Speaker
ah Okay, $2.95 in 1995 would have been $6.27 today. Which, you know, they're $6 comics now. it's that's That's not unheard of. It's not unheard of.
00:14:59
Speaker
But it's, uh... don't know about it. It ain't cheap. It ain't cheap! Alright, so... He wakes up from a dream about Dawn. He says there was this girl. One more thing. one more thing Sorry, Matt.
00:15:12
Speaker
Alright. Sorry. Matt, I apologize. Sure. I know you're eager to get into the story and explain it. Yeah.
00:15:24
Speaker
I said Fist of the North Star. It is the exact combination of Fist of the North Star and Terror Witch of the Black Rose.
00:15:36
Speaker
Yes, it is very Terror of the Witch of the Black Rose. i I don't know if Jim Ballant was inspired by Dawn at all, but... I would... I find it hard to believe that Jim Ballin has consumed any art that Jim Ballin did not produce, but that's just me being mean.
00:15:51
Speaker
But yeah, no wonder I kind of like it. But the the the lead character who I just looked and saw that his name is Darian. That's right. You would think I would remember that because that's Sailor Moon's boyfriend's name.
00:16:06
Speaker
His name is Darian. With two R's. He is very similar to... What is it? Skeleton Man? Yeah, similar to John Webb the Skeleton Man.
00:16:17
Speaker
Skeleton Man ah from Tarot. And Dawn is a very Tarot-like figure. even though she's In two specific ways. Yeah. um But even more enigmatic than Tarot is.
00:16:31
Speaker
um Very much so. yeah But like Darian is is is often um portrayed as kind of stupid. In ah a way you wouldn't expect. I agree with everything but the word kinda.
00:16:45
Speaker
But yeah. Okay, so Darian and his buddy. um Darian wakes up, he had a dream about Dawn, and he's talking to his buddy, and they're getting ready to go. They're wearing like kind of like medieval-looking clothes. Yeah, they're they're Mad Maxed up, but in like a slightly more fantasy way. Like they're wearing jeans, but also like armor, like pauldrons and such. Like plate armor. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:11
Speaker
And so they look like they're they're in the past to start with, but then we find out that what they're going off to do is just be part of this like nightly death fight that happens in Times Square. Weekly.
00:17:28
Speaker
Is it weekly? Okay. It's the Saturday night fights. it's Yes, um but it's just a ah huge group of dudes who look very Fist of the North Star-like, Mad Max-y.
00:17:41
Speaker
Yeah, this watch page where they're all fighting is Fist of the North Star as fuck. Yes. um They go out into the middle of Times Square to kill each other. And Darian and his buddy are out in the middle of it, and he sees Dawn standing in a doorway, wearing like pirate a pirate outfit, essentially. um Yeah, exactly.
00:18:09
Speaker
She's got her like three tears on her face. And so he just leaves. He just leaves the big fight to go like track her down, to go find her. mean, to be fair, I prompt i've i probably would too.
00:18:23
Speaker
Yeah. So she knows his name. She knows his name is Darian ah Ashoka. And she says he's the Slayer of Demon and Murderer of Angels.
00:18:35
Speaker
And she tries to remind him of who he is and says, by your hand, gods will live and gods will die. Come, let us adore you.
00:18:47
Speaker
um And then they go right back to his apartment and have sex, um which does not happen on panel. um It just kind of cuts to afterward. Yeah, if you were if you were hoping for full penetration in this comic.
00:19:01
Speaker
Doesn't happen yet. Doesn't happen. Doesn't happen. Yeah, but they do they do bone down awful quick. ah She also says some other things, some other cryptic prophecies that I don't like. As
Dawn's Divine Mission
00:19:19
Speaker
such as?
00:19:20
Speaker
i don't want I don't even want to say it, Matt. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, there's some... Yeah, yes, yes, yes. um the the The way of that Lindsner makes this guy legendary...
00:19:34
Speaker
ah Kind of makes him sound like a like a not a great guy. it's I feel like that part has to be inspired by like you know Conan.
00:19:46
Speaker
but By the whole, like you know, thief, a reaver, who would tread the jeweled thrones beneath his sandaled feet. I think it's also part of the whole, like, there's no such thing as good and evil thing.
00:20:03
Speaker
element of this book. Right. Like where he's, he's both. Um, but I don't, I don't like it so much. Yeah. Yeah. Um, they talk about his dad and how he carries his father's sword and she tells him, ah that he should go to the cathedral out East it in queens to learn amazing things. I thought Long Island, I thought it was on Long Island. Maybe. ah But yeah. ah This first issue feels like it's going to set up a lot of stuff. like
00:20:41
Speaker
Like, there's a part where he's talking to his buddy who wears like a Hagar the Horrible helmet. Which, I do kind of love that. Because like I feel like that that is a great economic storytelling way of telling us, like, oh, this guy's a jagoff.
00:21:00
Speaker
Because, like, oh, yeah, it's the fucking apocalypse, and this guy, like, fully went and got, like, a Minnesota Vikings Viking helmet. Correct, yeah. And that's going to be his thing now.
00:21:12
Speaker
ah It's... I actually do kind of love that. um But he's like, he's like, is this all there is? You know, just go in and...
00:21:23
Speaker
and killing people and going through their pockets every Saturday night in Times Square. We don't even know who started up this whole thing where we all fight each other and kill each other. And if you're me, you read that and you think like, oh, I guess we're going to find out who set up these fights nope in this, like the fucking Duke of New York or whatever does not come back, does not come up.
00:21:48
Speaker
the The fights in Times Square never come up again. Never come up again. yeah And in fact, like when he comes back to New York after, I mean, spoiler warning, he comes back to New York after the cathedral, um,
00:22:03
Speaker
He just like god sees his friend at a bar, and like it's like, this did not need to be the post-apocalypse. And it's also there's also a whole thing set up where it's yeah, that's my father's sword. It's like, oh, I guess we're going to find out that like who his father is, and like maybe he's got some kind of grand destiny. No, not really. the The sword comes up later, but yeah, not in the way you might expect. Yeah, but we don't... do we Am I completely forgetting finding out anything about... like who his father is, and... No, his sword... He doesn't have one.
00:22:36
Speaker
His sword just breaks. Like, that's... It becomes about him having to, like, leave the legacy of his father behind. I think it's maybe kind of implied that he's his own father. Yeah, yeah.
00:22:50
Speaker
Yeah, because because he keeps reincarnating, and he's this like god of war figure. um Anyway, Dawn tells him that her name is Dawn um as the sun rises right next to her face, ah because that's the level of subtlety we're playing with here. By the way, you can call me Dawn as the sun coming up over the horizon. Hilarious, kind of love it.
00:23:14
Speaker
Uh, so she's gone. he falls back asleep and she's, she's gone. And he goes back out to see the aftermath of the, the fights. And he's wearing this like hilarious, um, like it's not exactly a cowboy hat. It's kind of like a, like a three Musketeers hat or something. It's this big wide brim hat that he has the front part put up like pirates.
00:23:44
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of pirate-y, I guess, yeah. But um he tells his buddy, like, oh, I'm going to the cathedral. ah Because I'm going to try to get to heaven. And his his buddy in the Higar the Horrible Helmet laughs at him.
00:23:58
Speaker
And he says, ah you'll be back here next Saturday, pal.
00:24:04
Speaker
um He also gets confronted by this woman named Adele, who is kind of just like the anti-Dawn. Adele is his ex-girlfriend, yeah who her only defining characteristic is that she cheats.
00:24:20
Speaker
Yes, and like, if you... Okay, so this is Fist of the North Star if it had a woman in it, but it doesn't mean the woman is portrayed well. Yeah, correct.
00:24:31
Speaker
um I will say, though, I do kind of like that Adele's cheating is presented bad, bad But also kind of morally value neutral. It's very much like, well, you knew she was a scorpion when you picked her up.
00:24:49
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Like, cause she, she cheats on everyone constantly with, uh, there's a whole recurring bit about like, you know, with Bobby such and such the butcher's son.
Exploration of Relationships and Themes
00:25:02
Speaker
and then there's a part where, you know, they have a very emotional moment and, and she like calls him the wrong name, which is honestly like not, it's not, not funny.
00:25:13
Speaker
But yeah, like, her her whole thing is is kind of bonkers. it's she is she's She's dressed in a full bright red like red carpet gown.
00:25:31
Speaker
yes like she She is dressed for the Met Gala. She's coded as like Latina or Spanish, I feel like.
00:25:43
Speaker
Um, she's got like dark hair, olive skin. um i mean, like I said, she's kind of the anti-Dawn. Um, she's got like a a cleft chin.
00:25:54
Speaker
um and yeah, she wears this kind of like big, like, I don't know, uh, kind of Spanish influenced looking dress. Like a, like a flamenco dress.
00:26:07
Speaker
Yeah. Like a flamenco dress. Um, and like I don't guess in the dialogue there's any kind of ethnic element to that. It's just like, oh, Dawn's got red hair, so she's got dark hair. you know like it's it's Like I said, she's just kind of the anti-Dawn in every way you could make her.
00:26:29
Speaker
you know She's really rolling the deep. Yeah, cheats. rolling in the deep
00:26:35
Speaker
um and like yeah she cheats like like Dawn also like immediately has sex with darren Darian upon meeting him, but like she's also like kind of weirdly presented as chaste as well. well she like as As we learned in our multiple choice test, Dawn is also the Virgin Mary?
00:27:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. But in the way that like Kevin Matchstick is King Arthur. Yeah. um So... um Darian is like camping, and this guy approaches him and asks him for an apple. and But he asks him for some food, and Darian's like, i have well i've got I've got a couple apples. You can have one if you want.
00:27:25
Speaker
And the guy's like, i know't i I don't want an apple, is what he says. yeah I don't like apples. yeah What a weird comic. ah And he's like, what are you doing? And Darian's like, I'm going to go find heaven.
00:27:40
Speaker
And the guy's like, keep dreaming. You're too close to New York. ah But then Darian goes to the cathedral. He tries to get in the front door, and there's too long of a line of people to get in. And we just cathedral this cathedral exists in like a FromSoft never-wear space. This shit is from Berserk.
00:28:07
Speaker
and Except... it's It's even more abstract, because it looks like Darian is walking on water to get to it. Yeah, all of this might sound like a metaphor for something, but it's I don't know if it is.
00:28:26
Speaker
And if it is a metaphor, I'm not sure what it is for. it's It's a very abstract place. like we said We joked about it being in Queens or on Long Island, but it's It's kind of in the Long Island sound, I feel like like. It's just like floating in the water and people are standing on water in line to get in and Darian is walking on water to get there.
00:28:49
Speaker
And he asks this old man if there's another entrance and the guy goes, no. And so um Darian just starts climbing up the side. Yeah, because he's like, well, there's got to be an open window here somewhere.
00:29:02
Speaker
And it is a... gi get like Like you said, FromSoft, I said Berserk. It is a giant pillar of stained glass.
00:29:15
Speaker
Yes. like it I actually think it looks really cool. like it's It's a nice little piece of art. yeah the page The page where it's just a splash page of him walking up to the...
00:29:28
Speaker
to the cathedral. um Yeah. But but very 1980s fantasy novel. It's very, yeah. It looks like the cover of a fantasy novel when he's walking up to it. Yeah. um So he starts climbing and he's like, I still can't figure out a way to get in. got to eat my last apple. And then Dawn appears to him and she's like, ah you know, you're going to find your way in some, somehow.
00:29:54
Speaker
And, He's kind of like daydreaming and all of a sudden there are these guards on the side of the tower who are trying to arrest him.
00:30:05
Speaker
And they're like, what are you doing here? And he says, I want to go to heaven. And they say, you can't go to heaven outside the church. And then he just starts fighting these guys and knocking them off of the side of the cathedral.
00:30:18
Speaker
um And then he just jumps off into the water and And washes up on a beach, and then he finds his father's sword broken.
00:30:32
Speaker
And there's one part where he says, I wish you luck, old man, and he puts the sword in the ground next to this like dead old man's body. Yeah, this is the old man the old man from outside the cathedral, who is different from the guy who didn't want an apple. Because that guy's going to come back later.
00:30:52
Speaker
Yes. ah But he's just dead now. And he says, I wish you luck, old man. I hope you found your heaven. And he sticks the sword in the ground next to him. The implication is kind of that this guy is his father, but that's definitely not correct.
00:31:08
Speaker
No, it's not. We also never really find out what the deal is with the cathedral. Like, if there is a deal with the cathedral, it's not like, you know... like Again, everything feels like it should be a metaphor. Like, oh, you gotta be in the cathedral to get to heaven. Okay, great. That that metaphor, I get.
00:31:30
Speaker
For sure. But like the long line and climbing up the outside and... Matt, we're pretty smart guys. I don't want to brag.
00:31:41
Speaker
Sure, yeah. you You graduated from a college. I graduated from two. Yeah, you're a smart guy. i do not
00:31:55
Speaker
i do not get what is going on here, if it is indeed meant to be a metaphor. Well, I know this much. As soon as this whole thing with the cathedral happens, demons start showing up and fighting each other.
00:32:15
Speaker
on the beach where Darian goes. And... ah It's a demon and an angel, right? Because this is the demon that is going to kill the angel and take his halo. were Correct. Which will be important later.
00:32:31
Speaker
ah Yes. So, I don't know if Darian's actions led to this, or if it's just we're moving on to another thing. Hard to say. And by hard, I do mean impossible.
00:32:44
Speaker
but that But then we go to um Dawn, who is in now like full um like fantasy novel, ah Frank Frazetta-style fighting attire with a sword and everything.
00:33:04
Speaker
So you're into issue two? I'm into issue two now, yeah. Yeah. um She um is asking this guy wearing with a halo ah to speak to Ahura Mazda, who is also Adonai, who is also Yahweh, who is also Allah.
00:33:21
Speaker
um This is God. she's She's asking to speak to God. And God tells her that... ah You know, heaven's got its own set of rules and the demons are ah out now. And um I need you, Dawn, to go get Lucifer's halo for me. That's the name of the story.
00:33:43
Speaker
Yes. um Because there are rules and Lucifer broke the rules and I used to love him. um but ah But now um I need the halo because it is a bridge between heaven and hell. it's It's never really clear why he needs it. He's just asking Dawn to go get it. ah there is an There is, if not outright stated, there's an implication that there is, if not rebellion, then dissatisfaction in heaven.
00:34:19
Speaker
ah Which we know because there is graffiti in heaven that's like... This place sucks, but like slightly more poetic than that. The the one that he shows or that he sees and gets mad at in front of Dawn is it was more fun in hell. Right.
00:34:36
Speaker
yeah So, God doesn't want God slash all gods ah doesn't want there to be a physical connection between heaven and hell, which would be Lucifer's Halo, the title of the book.
00:34:54
Speaker
Right, i which I guess you could you could infer ah means that it will it could foment a rebellion yeah in heaven. I mean, this this kind of seems like a like an like a plot from Hellblazer.
00:35:09
Speaker
a little bit, yeah, maybe. yeah But Dawn's like, okay, yeah, I'll go get the i'll go get the the Halo. And she tells him, good luck with that graffiti problem. Yeah. Yeah, so then she goes to hell, and the exact same sequence happens.
00:35:23
Speaker
Yes, there's there's graffiti in hell that says, Heaven lies within. yeah and Lucifer's like, boo! Yeah. Those rascals! And ah God and and the devil look exactly like each other.
00:35:38
Speaker
Correct. ah And there's a whole conversation where he's like... He's like, but this was my halo, and it was given to me, and you can't just take back a gift. Dawn has now also changed, had a costume change in the journey from heaven to hell, and now she's in a Met Gala ball gown. And I will say...
00:36:02
Speaker
her Her heaven costume, the outfit she wears to go see God is a little hell-coated. Yes. And her outfit to go see Lucifer is a little heaven-coated. Yes. And i I do actually really like all of Dawn's outfits. I think they're fun.
00:36:23
Speaker
They are ah occasionally, at least in some way, related to the story, like this one being Heaven Coated. um i mean, they' you know they're all sexy, but I i think that's what we were going to get with this book. This one has a heart-shaped boob window. Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:44
Speaker
and And almost every single one has visible um like nipples poking out. It's always cold, wherever Dawn is. Yeah. They always have the AC turned up. Even here in hell, they have the AC turned way up. Well, you know, Matt, read read read the Divine Comedy sometime, you know? Maybe you should be going to a third school.
00:37:03
Speaker
Yes, yes. Third college. But...
00:37:10
Speaker
but ah Yeah, i there I think there's a ah prevailing theory that Dawn appears to whomever sees her as what they want her to be.
00:37:23
Speaker
and so Like Galactus. Yes, kind of like Galactus. So you could infer or or read into it that Dawn appears to God in sort of hell-coded – sort of hell-coded outfit.
00:37:38
Speaker
um Because that's secretly what God wants to see, and vice versa for the heaven-coated outfit. Yeah, there is – to say that there's a lot of ah gay subtext with God and the devil in this book is not accurate because it's cause it's not subtext, I think. like there There is not the requisite level of subtlety that it would need to be.
00:38:08
Speaker
But yeah, I think, i actually, I appreciate that as visual storytelling, and I like it. ah So the devil quotes um Macbeth to Dawn, and she's like, oh, cool cool quote from Othello. And the devil goes nuts.
00:38:27
Speaker
but he He flips out at her for for saying, like, it was Macbeth. You're mocking But Nan is lettering in this sequence. I kind of love it.
00:38:38
Speaker
And that's enough to piss him off enough for him to be like, okay, fine, take the fucking Halo. I don't care. God sent you you here to just torment me? Take the Halo.
00:38:49
Speaker
Now, now the the the trick here that you might know... ah dear reader, dear listener, is that the monologue he's quoting is not from Macbeth, nor is it from Othello.
00:39:09
Speaker
It's from Hamlet. Yeah. which will Which will come up later, but not in a way that is relevant. Like, it doesn't – I am mystified by what that might mean.
00:39:22
Speaker
That the devil like the devil gets into line numbers? Yes. And it still has it wrong, yeah. And still has it wrong? um So then after the devil gives Dawn his halo, she is now back in New York wearing those like jeans and that wallet chain that we talked about a while back.
00:39:43
Speaker
And um she graffitis on the wall um I heart New York where it's like the heart is also like a yin and yang. Uh-huh.
00:39:54
Speaker
um Because, you know, balance. There is no good and evil, only balance. um Which reveals that she has been the one putting the graffiti all over the place. It's like a fucking spy versus a spy ending. Where she like fully turns and spikes the camera and is like, you know, might as well like flash a peace sign where she's like, I'm the one who's been doing the graffiti.
00:40:18
Speaker
Yeah, which is like... The most characterization I feel like she ever really gets is like she's kind of just like a troublemaker. she's She's trying to cause um rift between heaven and hell. She's
Darian's Identity and Role Revelation
00:40:36
Speaker
playing both sides against the middle, so on and so forth. ah Issue three.
00:40:44
Speaker
Which has Dawn in jeans with her wallet chain on the cover as well. Comparatively speaking, I mean, ah i say this is weird to say about a comic where a character literally travels between heaven and hell and talks to God and the devil.
00:41:00
Speaker
And we get like you know a big costume change and everything. Comparatively, so much more happened in number one than in number two. Number one has so much in it.
00:41:13
Speaker
But number two is like a weirdly self-contained story also. It's like, it feels... To me, it's the most like narrative narratively satisfying issue issue of the whole thing. Absolutely agreed.
00:41:25
Speaker
Yeah. um Like, too much happens in number one. Yes, which never gets paid off on. Correct. um Anyway, okay, so issue three starts with Darian at a bar, and he's got this, like...
00:41:39
Speaker
um Weird ponytail that makes him kind of unrecognizable, but it's him. So you can tell he's not God or the devil. Yeah, and he's talking to these two women who were named Faith and Charity.
00:41:51
Speaker
And it's just a long talkie page that kind of goes nowhere ah before ah his buddy's name is Janus, by the way.
00:42:03
Speaker
Um, and Adele show up and also, ah Frank Zappa. There's a drawing of Frank Zappa there for no reason. That's him. Yeah. Um, faith and charity definitely want to have a threesome.
00:42:14
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah. just I don't like, I feel like that's worth bringing up. Um, but he's not interested. Darian's not interested. Um, who who gives them the name Ralph, by the way.
00:42:27
Speaker
um So he's leaving the bar now. He doesn't want Janus to know he was there, especially because Janus is with Adele now, ah who is in a different red met gala gown and boy the even in the post apocalypse they they got that air conditioning unlock janus is wearing his hagar the horrible helmet a tuxedo jacket with the sleeves ripped off yes and a like tuxedo shirt and bow tie and then jeans and like a spiked metal copies yeah copies yeah yeah yeah
00:43:05
Speaker
why It is a look. It is a look. Um, but anyway, yeah, Darian starts leaving. He runs into the dude who didn't want an apple. And, uh, and he keeps calling Darian Captain Crunch, which is very funny.
00:43:19
Speaker
Because of his hat. Yeah. But he goes, Hey, it's you, Captain Crunch. where What happened to your hat? And, uh, he goes, I traded it for a bag of apples. And then the guy's like, damn, I want, now I want an apple.
00:43:31
Speaker
Uh, and then the guy's like, did you make it to heaven? And, uh, He said, ah no, I left because I didn't like the view. And then um the the quotes from Hamlet come back up again.
00:43:45
Speaker
um Then ah Dawn appears to him. Darian gets it all wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like he can't, like, he's kind of got it right. To it' like to the point of him being like, yeah, you know, something, something, noble and faculties, blah, blah.
00:44:05
Speaker
Instead saying Paragon of the Animals, he says Paramore of the Animals, which is very funny. yes And that's when Dawn shows up. And that's what dawn when Dawn is like, what do you say what did you just say? What fuck did you say?
00:44:17
Speaker
And she's like sitting on top of a mailbox. um And she's like, what were you quoting? and And ah he's like, Hamlet. And she goes, Hamlet, you sure it's not Macbeth?
00:44:33
Speaker
And, uh, she finds that very, very funny. Yeah. Then he's like, yeah, Hamlet's the only Shakespeare I ever read. Yeah. And she's, she's like laughing it up at that. Um, cause you know, cause cause the devil.
00:44:45
Speaker
Yeah. Cause the devil got it all wrong. I'm so mad about it. And, uh, he tells her that he broke his father's sword and, uh, she's like, well, you just got to open yourself up to the world. um You gotta you got to start seeing some stuff you haven't seen before.
00:45:05
Speaker
And he's like, okay, well, um you know I'm not into like Satanism and stuff. And she's like, no, no, you gotta open your mind up more. It's all the same. ah And then she says, you haven't tried to kiss me yet. I liked a man with a little self-control. They fully fucked in issue one.
00:45:26
Speaker
Yeah, but that was in issue one. yeah this is this is This is now, man. Dawn is about what's going on now. Yeah. ah And they start talking about the tears on her face, and he wipes them away, and she's like, you're the only person who could ever wipe away my tears.
00:45:45
Speaker
um And
00:45:51
Speaker
then she gives him a Frank Sinatra album, Come Fly With Me. And then she gives him, inside of the the sleeve for the album, it's ah is is Lucifer's Halo.
00:46:02
Speaker
That's the name of the book. That's the name of the book. Yeah. Then an angel shows up, and he's it's Michael. and ah But it's spelled M-I-K-A-L.
00:46:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's spelled all cool. Yeah. um I guess Joseph Michael Lindster didn't get the didn't get the memo about angel naming. Yeah, the the the EL is kind of an important part of that, but you know, whatever.
00:46:29
Speaker
It's pretty important that it's EL, yeah. yeah But you know it's you know, it is what it is. ah But Michael shows up and he's like, hey, that's not yours. i need to take I need to take that. And Darian's like, no, you can't have it.
00:46:43
Speaker
ah He starts to run away, but Michael catches up to him and starts a fight. And the whole reason that he doesn't want to give it to him is is like, Dawn gave it to him. So yeah everything that happens in this book now the is is based on the premise of, a hot girl gave this to me and no one else can ever have it.
00:47:06
Speaker
So he stabs Michael and and he's like, oh shit, I just i just killed an angel. ah And then some little demon guys show up and start taunting ah Darian, this is a very berserk kind of thing to be happening.
00:47:26
Speaker
Yes. ah He starts like cutting the little demon guys in half, though, as they taunt him. Which is...
00:47:38
Speaker
Is this... I guess he's got Michael's sword now? But no, because he kills Michael with a sword. Yeah, he had a sword. He had a different sword. He's got a new sword.
00:47:49
Speaker
Yeah. So, like which I guess is just like he stopped and got a sword on his way into town. Well, it looks like the sword Dawn had in the last issue. ah But she didn't give it to him, so I don't know.
00:48:02
Speaker
I don't know where this sword came from. But he has a new sword. And he's like chopping up these little little guys. Very jealous of anybody who has a new sword.
00:48:12
Speaker
Yeah, fair. um But... ah he's He starts kind of like being getting taunted ah by all these unseen but voices coming from unseen beings, talking about how he now has the halo of Lucifer and all this stuff about him.
00:48:35
Speaker
Heaven knows your name, looter of corpses, breaker of swords, and so on and so forth. um Then there's a backup in here. Yeah, this backup is ah is worth discussing, even though it is not part of of the events of Dawn Lucifer's Halo. ah Because it's wild.
00:49:02
Speaker
It's a Lady Death parody? It's a Lady Death parody where, like...
00:49:11
Speaker
first First of all, it is Lady Death. D-E-F. So the Lady Death character is black. Yeah, she's got like a little afro.
00:49:24
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean, she's she looks like Lady Death. Like she's got you know chalk white skin and everything, but it is... ah You know. um And then there's a whole thing about how ah about how they're all, like, kind of talking shit about all the other bad girls in comics in 1995, which is extremely Wizard Magazine.
00:49:48
Speaker
So there's a panel with Vampirella, Lady Rawhide, you remember Lady Rawhide? Lady Rawhide, came back. ah Dawn, and also, i don't know who the other character is.
00:50:04
Speaker
Maybe it's supposed to be, ah i don't think it's supposed to be, like, Death from the Eternals. It looks like... Or from the Endless, I mean. it looks It looks like Death from Sandman.
00:50:16
Speaker
Yeah. what it looks like. But I don't... I don't know. They also talk a lot of shit about She, which is very funny. There's also a ah ah panel where it's like Spider-Man and Batman and Jughead.
00:50:32
Speaker
man. The successful comics. And... ah Superman, but but wearing glasses. Yeah. ah there's a There's a... ah Spider-Man is reading a Time magazine with Charlie Brown on the cover. Jughead is reading Hustler. Yeah.
00:50:52
Speaker
ah Superman is reading an issue with the Daily Planet that says Marvel by Sony, which is funny for many reasons. Correct. Here in 2025. And then Batman is reading, ah I think, another ah porton bag. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. um It's weird. because It's very weird. it is like It is like a tablet from an ancient time where it's like, this this meant something to someone.
00:51:22
Speaker
and And all of Lady Death's interactions are with a crash test dummy. Yeah, I don't know if um Safety Belt Man appears in other stories.
00:51:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's pretty wild. It's pretty weird. There is exactly one funny joke. Let's move on to Dawn number four. ah You don't want to you don't know what the funny joke is?
00:51:45
Speaker
Let's hear the fun one funny joke. Funny joke is when ah ah Safety Belt Man says to Lady Death, are you serious? And she goes, no, chaos. Yeah, that's that that is such a Darrow-casted joke, but it is funny. It is funny.
00:52:02
Speaker
if you if i mean if If you're reading this comic, you get it. Yeah. this This comic was published by Serious Entertainment, ah and Lady Death is a character from Chaos Comics is the is the joke there. That is the joke, yeah.
00:52:17
Speaker
Alright, issue four um starts with some demon dudes looking for Lucifer's halo. That's the name of the book. They're on top of the building, and then Dawn appears before them in her kind of like... I don't know, I think this is kind of like her archetypal outfit.
00:52:36
Speaker
i would say this is like this is like what the statue is. This is what the action figure is, for sure. Where it's like... all green and kind of armored, but also like kind of dress.
00:52:51
Speaker
But the whole bodice, the whole chest part, is this like sheer skull pattern. Yeah. um I mean, it looks cool. I i gotta to say it looks cool. looks cool. um um Seems like a pain in the ass to draw, too. So yeah kudos to Lindsner for...
00:53:13
Speaker
sticking with it. I guess if you're going to be drawing a bunch of tiny little skulls, you've got to make it something you don't mind drawing. So, ah an armored angel, uh, or what seems to be an armored angel shows up and starts fighting these demons.
00:53:30
Speaker
And, uh, they're like, uh, where'd you get that halo? Uh, what's going on? Cause he's got, you know, devil's halo. And, uh,
00:53:41
Speaker
finally one of the demons knocks off the helmet and it's Darian wearing Michael's armor. And, uh, there's, there's more fighting between him and these demons. He like cuts this, like the main demons arm off.
00:53:57
Speaker
Uh, and you know, he's like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to give up this halo. Cause a hot lady gave it to me. Uh, and the, the demons like keep taunting him.
00:54:10
Speaker
um Finally, they kind of like beat him down and get him down on the ground. And it seems like they're going to like nearly kill him. Some angels... No, it's angels who do that to him.
00:54:23
Speaker
um After he fights off the demons, some angels show up and like get him down. But then he starts fighting using the halo and manages to fight his way back and ah fights off more of the angels.
00:54:36
Speaker
It's just a lot of Darian fighting angels and demons in this issue. um Finally, he goes back to a bar and he's like, ah give me that bottle of vodka, which is a bottle of absolute. Like, it's definitely clearly branded absolute vodka. oh And he says, ah you know, I just beat an angel ah to death.
00:55:01
Speaker
And then his buddy Janus is there. And Janus is like, hey, Adele cheated on me. And ah Darian is like, of course she did.
00:55:15
Speaker
That's what she does. no that That is her only character trait. And he laughs that it was this guy named Scott Ferretti, the butcher's son. That's it. It was the same guy that she cheated on Darian with.
00:55:28
Speaker
It was brought up in the ah in the first issue. Scott Ferretti, the butcher's son. Yeah. ah That makes... a Janus is a little bit mad, but then he sees um Lucifer's halo, and he's like, hey, let me look at that.
00:55:44
Speaker
And Darian's like, no. And he pushes Janus away and knocks off his Viking helmet. And Janus is like, you're dead, dude. You are dead. Give it to me. Give me the halo. And then they get into a like an even bigger fight. You knocked off my Viking helmet, and so now I the halo.
00:56:03
Speaker
So then Darian punches Janus right in the face and knocks him out. ah And so he leaves the bar and he's like, kind of walking around all dejected, like, oh man, having this halo made me punch my friend.
00:56:22
Speaker
And that's where that issue ends. It's really, again, like, is this trying to say something about like, the fragility of male friendship or?
00:56:34
Speaker
If it is, I really doubt that it's on purpose. Yeah, it's also... um If anything, it's trying to say, like, women become between male friends.
00:56:47
Speaker
Yeah, man. Which is a much more 1996 concept, I feel like. Also, Janus in this issue is wearing a ah a ah referee shirt.
00:56:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It looks like a basketball referee shirt, specifically. um Weird book. Weird book. um Issue five has this like a character who will show up in this issue, um who's kind of like a floating skull with long hair and big horns, who's wearing an outfit that also has like the tragedy and comedy masks on it.
00:57:26
Speaker
And then his lower half is kind of like a dragon-looking thing. Yeah, word. ah It's pretty cool. It's very, you know, like I said, metal... album cover themed.
00:57:38
Speaker
And then Dawn is on this cover um topless, but she's covering herself up with a feather.
00:57:46
Speaker
Nice. Yeah. But in jeans. And still wearing jeans, yeah. In some real low-rise jeans. Yeah. So, we get a little bit with Darian um remembering being woken up by his mother, then being woken up by, like,
00:58:06
Speaker
Dawn in a superhero costume. His mother is also Dawn. His mother is also Dawn. Which really...
00:58:15
Speaker
it's it's It's challenging. Yeah. um But then he's being woken up by Dawn in like a superhero costume while he's hugging a bunch of Conan comics. ah And I think Killraven is in there.
00:58:29
Speaker
There's also Fantastic Four. yeah um And then it's like the tragedy and comedy masks acting that out. And then, ah he's really being woken up in his armor, in his, Michael's armor by Adele, who, uh, yes. Who says hello. He, he's on a, like a subway train and, ah she's like, I still care about you, Darian.
00:58:58
Speaker
And she's like, Neil Cassidy meant nothing to me. And Scott for ready meant nothing to me. and Yeah, that's that's the that's the bit where she's like, uh, she's like, yeah, Neil Cassidy meant nothing to me. And he goes, who? And she goes, uh, sorry, I mean, Scott Ferretti.
00:59:14
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is a pretty funny joke, i will I will say. That did get a laugh out of me while reading it. ah And he says, uh...
00:59:27
Speaker
Look, I like that you want to make peace. that's That's your nature as a woman. Okay. Yeah, this is when he kind of turns and into Dave Sim for a minute. Yeah. and ah And he says, but I'm a man, and my heart is fueled by rage.
00:59:43
Speaker
And he says, look, Adele, we're opposites, and that's part of what draws us together. ah But um this is just not going to work. And she's like, I can change you. And he goes, no, you can't.
00:59:57
Speaker
um And she's like, okay, bye. To this book's credit and to Lindner's credit, there is a part where he's like, I'm a man. And men are fueled by rage. They don't make peace like women. And she goes, okay, are you sure that's men or is that just you?
01:00:14
Speaker
Yes, yes. that That is a pretty good line. Yeah. yeah um But she walks out of the train and immediately... Goes right into the clutches of a demon. Immediately gets murdered.
01:00:28
Speaker
And then kills her, yeah. Which which ah tis is not in itself funny. It's just like, of course, of of course that is what happens.
01:00:39
Speaker
But like the demon doesn't even like demand... Well, he does demand the halo. He like stabs Adele, which means that Darian then immediately stabs him.
01:00:52
Speaker
yeah And so... it's It's so perfunctory. Yeah. That this is how she this how this sequence ends. um So then he gets confronted by... he like but goes back out to the surface. He's like looking up like, ah what's... what What's happening to me?
01:01:11
Speaker
Everybody's trying to fight me over this halo. And ah he then gets confronted by angels. Then he gets confronted by demons, who then um call the angels a slur. Uh-huh.
01:01:24
Speaker
Which is ah pretty jarring.
01:01:28
Speaker
Yeah. At least it's the demons who say it. yeah at least it Yeah, that's true. um It's not not good. And then the demons and the angels just start like fighting each other.
01:01:42
Speaker
i mean, I guess they're fighting Darian too, but they're also fighting each other. yeah you know And that's when the figure from the cover shows up. The like skull guy with the horns and the tragedy and comedy masks.
01:01:57
Speaker
And he starts to just starts wrecking shop on everybody. This dude's the skull knight of this comic. Yes. And the gap in quality between this dude and the Skull Knight is the exact gap in quality between this dude and the, and they are or between this comic and Berserk.
01:02:15
Speaker
Yes, I do feel like Joseph Michael Lindzer had to have read Berserk. Because there's too much of this that seems influenced by it. Yeah, because Berserk's, like, this is 95, so would Berserk have been ah in America at that point?
01:02:35
Speaker
You know, that's a great question. I don't know. But like, it was definitely... It's definitely out. I think the Golden Age saga was definitely over by 95. Yeah.
01:02:47
Speaker
Because the anime was 98, I think. um So, I don't know. Maybe Joseph Michael Isner was able to get you know his hands on some Some fan translations or something. He some fan subs?
01:03:06
Speaker
Yeah. 97. The anime was 97, so... I think that the Golden Age probably had ended in the comics by then.
01:03:17
Speaker
Anyway, the the Skull guy looks into Darian's eyes after wrecking everybody. And then Darian then just wakes up with Dawn in front of him.
01:03:28
Speaker
um this is this This is the version of Dawn who is like wearing her traditional outfit, but the casual version, where it's still the sheer top, but um like long um green like opera gloves and jeans.
01:03:47
Speaker
And them low-rise jeans. Yeah. ah And Dawn is like, you killed all those demons. Great job. Yeah, he's like, hey, Dom, what the hell happened? And she's like, man, you went apeshit, is what happened. That skull guy with the horns, that's you.
01:04:04
Speaker
Yeah, man, that's you. that's That's you, because you're the horned god. And then Darian is like, shut up, I'll kill you. he's ah He's a man of fickle moods, is old ah Darian Ahsoka.
01:04:19
Speaker
And she's like he's like, I want the truth. to Tell me the goddamn truth. And then um a tear comes down her face. Because, as she said, he's the only one who can wipe away her tears, but it's he's also the only one who can make her cry. Because he's, you know, both things at the same time.
01:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, man. It's like poetry. It rhymes. It's exactly like that. So she explains... ah when you realize the presence of the horned God, the God of death, or the Lord of death in you, you never you realize the place in the never-ending order of the things, and your spirit becomes immortal. Darian, I pushed you toward the church because I knew that it would test you, and that you would test it, and that it would undoubtedly fail. I gave you the halo to put you on the same level as heaven and hell, to show you that they have no power over you. Your role in the drama of nature is one without judgment, without guilt. Winter, spring, summer, fall. Winter, spring, summer, fall. Separate yet equal.
01:05:21
Speaker
Locked together by destiny. Boy, using the phrase separate yet equal to ah describe the hero of your comic. Yeah, what you tell you it's very specifically not separate but equal.
01:05:39
Speaker
Like, it's... it It sticks out because it's clearly like, maybe run run that through another draft? Where's that? where that or ah I do feel like there's a good amount in here of Lindsner trying to seem smart through reference.
01:05:55
Speaker
Oh, really? Like the like both full Shakespeare thing? Yeah. But like I don't know that he understands all the references. He's just putting them in here to seem smart.
01:06:08
Speaker
ah poetic and deep and smart. um but yeah Speaking of which, she says, metaphors run as deep as you let them.
01:06:20
Speaker
um And she's like, don't you remember? Don't you remember being the god of death? ah She says, i will love you like none other, for I have died a thousand tiny deaths, and every time I died, I thought of you.
01:06:34
Speaker
Now, that
01:06:37
Speaker
Matt, she's talking about like Boston, right? Le Petit Mort. yes du Yeah, like I thought of you when I had a thousand little deaths. She's talking about Boston, right?
01:06:49
Speaker
Oh yeah, she's definitely talking about Boston. And how it makes you feel good. yeah um And ah she says, come let me adore you. And she like finally shows him and lets him Is that also about Boston?
01:07:00
Speaker
I don't think so. um But maybe. but maybe um i mean... up Up for interpretation. um But yeah, so he finally knows that he is the God of Death. She has finally revealed the full truth to Darian about who he really is. um Dawn number six has Dawn in, like again, kind of her best-known outfit, a variation on it that's all white on the cover.
01:07:28
Speaker
um So it opens with Darian like looking out over the city looking back at his bed, Dawn's there.
01:07:40
Speaker
ah She says good morning. There's a ah splash title page that is very, like, Tawny Katane in a music video. yeah ah she She almost doesn't look like Dawn.
01:07:54
Speaker
yeah And it's because her her hair is not covering her one eye, which then ah Darian makes a joke about. He goes, oh you have two eyes. Uh-huh.
01:08:06
Speaker
Which is pretty pretty funny. And he tells her, you, my dear, are a trip. And he's wearing a new outfit. She asks him where he got it.
01:08:19
Speaker
And he says, I had it stashed in a hidden closet. ah And it's kind of like this, I mean, it's a very Fist of the North Star looking outfit, I guess. it's it's It's like a sci-fi night.
01:08:33
Speaker
yeah Because it's all white with black armor. and And like a leather belt around it. But yeah, it's kind of futuristic armor, I suppose.
01:08:46
Speaker
ah Maybe like a Logan's Run looking thing, kind of. Kind of, yeah. yeah ah
01:08:58
Speaker
Then Darian's like, I gotta to get rid of this. I gotta get rid of this halo. I think I'm going to summon heaven and hell. And Dawn's like, what? You're going to summon heaven and hell?
01:09:08
Speaker
And Darian's like, hey why not? Let's do it. Yeah, was that not your whole plan? Yeah. That you told me about? ah But, um... He's like, I know I'm going to set off the cycle where I forget who I am again.
01:09:28
Speaker
And then they part. Uh... Well, they tell each other that they love each other, and then they part. um And so... He he runs by the the guy who didn't want the apple again, and now he's got his hat.
01:09:46
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:49
Speaker
And he's like, ah I don't want any apples now. I want that halo. And Darian tells him, this is the ring to God's condom. Yeah, that's...
01:10:03
Speaker
An interesting way of describing it that has nothing to do with what it is or anything that we have seen in this comic so far. Then, Darian goes and stands between the Twin Towers
01:10:18
Speaker
and ah summons both God and the Devil to him using the halo. And they refer to him by the things we don't want to say. Because see, they're the they're the they're the two...
01:10:31
Speaker
They're two things that are separate, but they're at the same. yeah The Twin Towers. You get it? Yep. um You get it. And even Darian says to God and the Devil, when was the last time you guys, you two, looked in a mirror?
01:10:46
Speaker
So, yes, they do look the same on purpose. um And they also look exactly like Darian? Yes. yeah that That, I don't know if that's on purpose. um
01:10:58
Speaker
And, uh... And he's like, things only have the power you give them. And then he smashes the halo in front of both of them.
01:11:10
Speaker
Uh... And... They
Climactic Confrontation and Symbolism
01:11:13
Speaker
kind of just... Argue a little more. God and the devil. And God just kind of leaves and he goes... Tonight you sleep the sleep of the just.
01:11:25
Speaker
To Darian.
01:11:28
Speaker
Uh... And see he sees that the the Halo, once it's been smashed, turns into gold. He goes and finds the guy who called him Cabin Crunch and trades him his sword for his hat back. which is Which is like Dawn's sword.
01:11:45
Speaker
It looks like Dawn's sword, for sure, yeah. It's a pretty cool sword. I guess as a as a professional sword raider, as you and I are, i would say this sword, they're pretty cool. Then he walks and sees a ship...
01:11:59
Speaker
docked And he's like, hey, um I got some gold here. can i can i Can that get me on the ship? Yeah, you you might be thinking, you, a fool, might be thinking, oh so that's the end that's the end of the book? No, we got a little more.
01:12:13
Speaker
We got a little more to talk about. ah And he goes, where's this boat going? And the guy tells him, Europa. And he says, the land of my father's, Europa. How fitting. Yeah.
01:12:26
Speaker
Which I love, because you know how people are always like, yeah, you know my family? They're European. Yeah. um So the but this boat is a battleship with sails. It's like an aircraft carrier with sails, which I actually think yeah if if we're going to do post-apocalyptic absolute nonsense anyway, sure, that kind of kicks ass.
01:12:46
Speaker
Sure, why not? It's very in line with the aesthetic of this comic. um And then he does talk about his father a little bit. He says, my father was a sailor.
01:12:58
Speaker
And he goes, ah never did too much with my father. ne had Never had much of a chance to get to know him. Cancer got him when I was 13. He was only 42.
01:13:08
Speaker
but ah But he's a... he Okay, but he's a god? perfect I don't know. but Is he talking about um Chris Christopherson's verse in The Highwaymen? My...
01:13:21
Speaker
ah but What is it? i was I was a sailor. I was a sailor. yeah i got cancer in my 40s. So the sailor guy asks him, did you cry when your dad died?
01:13:36
Speaker
And he said, no, I figured that it was my turn to stand tall and be a man. So I did my best and didn't cry. And the sailor's like, oh, I cried a lot when my father died. ah But because he was my father and I miss him.
01:13:51
Speaker
Strong men also cry. yeah Mr. Lebowski. And so Darian's like, well, I'm going to go to my cabin. And he looks out the window and he sees the cathedral, which is now like destroyed.
01:14:06
Speaker
Then he remembers some Jimi Hendrix lyrics. Uh-huh.
01:14:14
Speaker
And then ah he... like Dawn appears to him again, now with white hair. And gives him back his father's sword, now reforged.
01:14:25
Speaker
Like Anduril. Like Anduril. The Flame of the West. And then we get a last page that is a lot like the last page of Amwat.
01:14:38
Speaker
Except it is Don dabbing. Well, it's okay. So Darian goes back out to the deck of the ship and he cries and he says, oh father. Like he finally cries. Yeah.
01:14:50
Speaker
And he only has two tears when he should have three. Yeah. ah But then he sees like Dawn in in the sky as the sun is coming over the horizon.
01:15:02
Speaker
and the sun is very strategically placed. the Yeah, the the sun is Dawn's genitals. And she's dabbing.
01:15:14
Speaker
She's dabbing, yeah. The end. The end. it I think also he smashes his father's sword like he smashed the halo. I didn't know. I thought that was ah maybe a flashback, but I guess i guess not. i guess he does smash it.
01:15:35
Speaker
But that might have been a dream? it's It's a little hard to tell. It's a little hard to tell. a lot of stuff is hard to tell.
01:15:44
Speaker
All right, Chris. Now we have the unenviable task of ranking Dawn. on the Every Story Ever list. Look, it's not good.
01:15:55
Speaker
It is, okay. There are parts of the story that make perfectly fine sense.
01:16:02
Speaker
There are other parts of the story that are total nonsense. I don't know what's happening, and I don't think Lindsner knows either. it's It is a kind of comic.
01:16:16
Speaker
We really try not to ascribe thoughts and feelings and internality to creators because we don't know what linds was thinking when he made this comic we do not that's what this is a comic that like really feels like it wants you to do that like i mean i i think it wants you to think that the author of the story is smart and insightful and poetic we all want that it it It very much feels like a guy who wants to impress girls in a and a poetry class writes and reads in front of ah the class.
01:16:56
Speaker
Yes. that is a That is a, I think, a pretty reasonable evaluation of this comic. Yeah. um I do feel like it is trying to be clever, and if it was not trying to be clever, it would tell a better story.
Critical Evaluation of 'Dawn'
01:17:12
Speaker
Because there wouldn't be the layers of metaphor that are in play. Because I think we can agree, there are some layers of metaphor at play in this comic. yeah In a very 1995 sort of way, they would be a lot more clear and not as muddled and incomprehensible as they are currently.
01:17:34
Speaker
Yeah. it it it It feels like it does have something to say about like religion and the nature of relationships and like you know even to a degree like sort of like self-defeating masculinity.
01:17:59
Speaker
Right? Yeah. like I feel like it's it is important for the For whatever Lindsner's getting at in this book, I feel like it's important that the one who demonizes Adele is Janus, who is an asshole.
01:18:19
Speaker
right And our main character then, immediately after that happens, meets up with Adele and is like, hey, it you know it is what it is. You're who you are, and I'm who I am.
01:18:33
Speaker
Right, but also he's like, I'm a man and I have to do this. yeah And it has to be her who's like, well, no you don't. like like like there if If we're being generous to this, the the reason that Darian keeps forgetting who he is, the reason that Darian loses himself constantly is because of some kind of held onto notion that he's got to be this manly figure who doesn't cry and doesn't allow himself to feel things.
01:19:12
Speaker
And he's only changed and only kind of breaks the cycle by the end by destroying his father's sword and crying over his death. Yeah, but also sometimes he turns into the death god.
01:19:25
Speaker
Yeah. Who flips out and kills all the angels and demons. like he's Like, he's my o c who is half-angel, half-demon, half-vampire, half-wizard.
01:19:39
Speaker
Like, it's... Like, yeah, like, the the metaphor about, like, kind of letting go of of what I don't know if they would have called it toxic masculinity in 1995, but is what we would call it.
01:19:53
Speaker
I don't know if that is... if that really aligns with also he becomes the death God and turns into biblical John Wick ah when when he's under pressure.
01:20:09
Speaker
Like, you know, god God and the devil are the same. Okay, what does that mean? Like, what are you trying to say about that? ah You know, you have to exist outside of it. You need balance. Okay, to to what end?
01:20:22
Speaker
Why do we need balance if God ultimately gets what he wants? Because God gets exactly what he wants when Darian smashes the the halo. God tells Dawn, you need to either bring it back to me or destroy it.
01:20:39
Speaker
And he gets the destroyed part. Yeah. like like yeah like You'd think that God and the devil would leave equally mad, maybe. But no, only the devil's mad. yeah God is happy. So God and the devil are the same, but what God wants is probably better.
01:20:56
Speaker
Which is, you know, fair. so So God gets what he wants, and the devil doesn't. Even though, like again, the part of the whole point was that they're the same, and that Dawn was playing them against each other. yeah um By putting up the graffiti that made them both so pissed off.
01:21:15
Speaker
Yeah, but again, to what end? Yeah, that's I feel like that's the big question of all of in all of it, right? like Yeah, I'm not sure what anyone other than God wants in this story, which like
01:21:31
Speaker
traditionally would make him the protagonist. Well, it's like we kind of know what Dawn wants a little bit. She wants Darian to remember who he is, because she loves him.
01:21:47
Speaker
Darian doesn't know that he wants that too, because he doesn't know about it until he knows about it. And then once he knows about it, he's like, very quickly, he's like, okay, I gotta go um start the cycle again.
01:22:01
Speaker
Yeah. Like, Dawn wants him to remember who he is, but like, so they can be together? Which then she's immediately like, alright, see ya.
01:22:14
Speaker
but yeah But she knows that they can never be together for very long. um But like again, like none of the kind of like emotion of that is explored, really.
01:22:25
Speaker
yeah it's it's just They just kind of go through the motions and do what they have to do. um it's it It is very much, for me, it is the exact midpoint between Fist the North Star and Terra Wish the Black Rose. It's not as enjoyable as either of those.
01:22:42
Speaker
It is better drawn than both of them. Yeah, yeah. It is well drawn. I cannot stress it enough. It might not be better drawn than Fist of the North Star. It's hard to say. Well, Fist of the North Star, the art is perfect for what it needs to be.
01:23:05
Speaker
Correct. ah yeah And you know, in a lot of ways, so is the art in tarot. And and i think the art in this i think the art and the well I think the art in this might be too good for the story, actually.
01:23:18
Speaker
I honestly... like
01:23:23
Speaker
Not everyone's Walt Simonson. You know? yeah Not everyone is even John Burton. Not everyone can write a man, draw him. Not everybody's Erica Henderson.
01:23:37
Speaker
You know? Correct. So... if If more people were like, Mike Mignola, who is good at writing, but like the first time was like, I should maybe get somebody to write this.
01:23:54
Speaker
and And so, you know, called up JB for that first Hellboy arc. I feel like things would be better.
01:24:06
Speaker
Like, I would really like to have seen Lindsner... deal with like some of the interesting ideas. Yeah, like... like ah Linsner doesn't seem interested in getting into any character's internality. Yeah, no, everyone like literally just says what they are feeling at all times. Yeah, and I feel like this is a story that would have benefited a lot more from not just saying what's happening and not just presenting what's happening, but...
01:24:41
Speaker
giving us some kind of sense of how anybody feels about it. Like, other than just like, I'm mad. I'm sad. you know? um'm Like, a little more depth of emotion would be very useful for a story like this. This might be very unfair of me.
01:25:02
Speaker
But it seems very... It seems very much like an artist and not like a writer. to introduce the cathedral in the way that he does and then not do anything with it.
01:25:18
Speaker
I mean, other than it just for just to show back up at the end and be destroyed. Yeah. Cause we get this like incredible visual, like this striking, beautiful page with this really cool design for an environment. And then it's like, nothing happens with that. And, and, and again, and maybe I'm completely off base on this, but like, it's kind of like, yeah, I drew that.
01:25:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's I drew it it it. It does seem like more of a story designed to draw stuff he wanted to draw than art in service of a story.
01:25:54
Speaker
Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. but But it's like very much very much like, yeah, you drew it, but like what does it mean? You've got to set some stuff there so that we know and we know why you drew it.
01:26:10
Speaker
Yeah.
Comparison with Other Comics
01:26:12
Speaker
um
01:26:15
Speaker
So where where are we putting this on the list? If your argument is that it's not as good as Tarot, we have two Tarot stories on the list currently. it's I will say, it is certainly more ambitious than Tarot. It's definitely more ambitious than Tarot, yeah. it's It's reach exceeds its grasp in a way that Tarot rarely does.
01:26:40
Speaker
Well, because Tarot doesn't doesn't reach that far. Yeah, no, Tarot... Well, when Tarot tries to be serious is when it's at its worst. Correct. Like, like the the issue with the nine the ghost of the 9-11 firefighters and the lady trying to blow up the New York with her nuclear boobs, like, that's just confusing as to what that wants. That is on the list at number 1619. That's...
01:27:09
Speaker
that's That's an appropriate ranking for that story. i don't like This is not as bad as that. Because that's like...
01:27:24
Speaker
There's so much wrong with that. The other tarot story we have on the list is Haunted Vagina, issue number 53, which is at 1530. Matt, do you know the um actual name of that story? like The actual title of that story?
01:27:40
Speaker
I do not. Loose lips.
01:27:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it wears on you, doesn't it? I'm just going to leave that silent pause fully unedited in the final edit of this. really it Really? You feel that one in your soul, don't you?
01:28:02
Speaker
You really do. Man, oh man. um That's at number 1530. I think this is better than that, too. i
01:28:12
Speaker
I have so much appreciation for that story. But it's not good. No, I mean, and Dawn isn't good either, but like, I kind of appreciate the ambition of it.
01:28:25
Speaker
You know, like, I appreciate the ambition of it. It is, it we we have often said, like, we do respect a comic that's trying something. Yeah. Like, I would, like, we have Blackest Night at 1494, and I'd read this in a heartbeat.
01:28:41
Speaker
Before I read Last Night Again. i don't regret reading this. neith Neither do I. i'm ah It's i' certainly interesting. I expected it to be much worse.
01:28:55
Speaker
I expected it to be worse. i expect it's It's not not horny, but I expected it to be hornier. Yeah. like it is It is horny, but it's horny in a like...
01:29:07
Speaker
USA up all night kind of way. it's It's kind of horny in a way that I didn't expect it to be. Because as we all know, there are infinite ways to be horny. Yes, yes. But I expected it to be horny, to to put this in purely 90s terms, I expected it to be horny in a Cinemax kind of way.
01:29:26
Speaker
Yeah.
01:29:29
Speaker
It's more horny in a USA all all up all night hosted by Ron DeSheer kind of way. Say it right. All night. There you go. Thank you.
01:29:43
Speaker
Where it's like they cut out the sex scene. Yeah. You get the before and after, but not. Yeah.
01:29:54
Speaker
Yeah. Very much. um i like I think this is better than The Pro. I would read it again before I'd read The Pro again. um For sure.
01:30:07
Speaker
yeah Okay, this is going to sound crazy. But stick with me here. Hit me, baby. It strikes me as being rather similar to Earth X, which we have at number 1439. No, very similar.
01:30:24
Speaker
Very similar. And there are there are people out there who don't understand that. And those people are Jim Kruger and Alex Ross. Yeah.
01:30:37
Speaker
Where it's like,
01:30:40
Speaker
it's taking things that are kind of inherently silly and trying to make them into cosmic myth. Yeah. Yeah.
01:30:52
Speaker
Where it instead of making the silly things more serious, it kind of makes the serious stuff more silly. Yes. Does that make any sense at all?
01:31:05
Speaker
Would you rather read this or read Earth-X? I'd probably rather read Earth-X, but i do think that they are... You sure you want to read Earth-X? yeah Don't forget um Wolverine got fat.
01:31:20
Speaker
Okay, that that part ain't good. That part ain't good. Wolverine got fat, and so did Jean. so well i there's There's bad and good in Earth-X, for sure. um
Ranking and Stylistic Reflections
01:31:33
Speaker
The stuff where... like Norrin Rad got Shalabal to be another Silver Surfer, um, and they were Silver Surfers together, that's nice.
01:31:47
Speaker
Although Shalabal, I think Shalabal Silver Surfer, like, immediately dies.
01:31:53
Speaker
If I remember right. and man what Wolverine's fat. Yeah. i don't think i could I don't think I could put this above Earth-X.
01:32:04
Speaker
Um, But man, it's better than Battle Scars, which is at 1442. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Is it better or worse than the first story featuring Carnage, which is also interestingly similar?
01:32:21
Speaker
Also interestingly similar. Very serious. Yeah.
01:32:27
Speaker
And kind of like, similar dialogue, if nothing else. I would say... I would say Carnage is better. I think you would disagree with me.
01:32:39
Speaker
No, I think you're right. I think you're right. um I think it's better than Spider-Man Battles the Myth Monster, though. Well, you say that, but Spider-Man Battles the Myth Monster is the PSA comic about asthma and epilepsy and diabetes.
01:32:54
Speaker
For the benefit of our listeners. So that's certainly of more moral value than Dawn. Okay. All right. Then this... then Okay. This is the new number 1442, then.
01:33:07
Speaker
Okay. All right. So Dawn 1995. And I'll say Dawn numbers one through six, just to be totally clear. Is that the new number 1442 on the list between Spider-Man Battles the Myth Monster and Battle Scars?
01:33:29
Speaker
I will say this. I can't believe this comic came out in 1995 and 1996 and not 1989. It definitely seems like it should have come out in 1989, yeah. like I kept thinking while I was reading it, like, oh, this is like a black and white boom book.
01:33:47
Speaker
And it's like, no, this book is in full color. well Well, it does emerge from that, right? Because Cry for Dawn... Yeah, because Cry for Dawn was....did start in 1989. Yeah. yeah Exactly.
01:33:59
Speaker
like That's the the exact year it started. um So, you know, that tracks. it' It is of a piece. or it it is It emerged from that ah time and style.
Supplementary Story and Conclusion
01:34:14
Speaker
How many points do we add on for like for that panel where they're just dunking on Billy Choo Choo? I mean, that isn't a backup story that's not actually part of Dawn. That's true.
01:34:28
Speaker
That's true. ah We talked about it, but it's not actually part of the story. That's true. All right. We finally did it. we We spent an hour and a half talking about Dawn.
01:34:39
Speaker
lot to cover. lot to cover. um it It is a fascinating piece of comics, if nothing else. It's real fascinating piece of comics.
01:34:54
Speaker
All right. ah We'll be back in December with more Comics Catch-Up. ah I'm not quite sure what we're going to catch up on ah for that, but we'll figure it out.
01:35:05
Speaker
Maybe something Christmassy. We'll see. Send us suggestions. You can email us at our email address, which is warrocketpodcast at gmail.com. You can also get in touch with us on Blue Sky. We're there at warrocketajax.com.
01:35:19
Speaker
We're on Tumblr, warrocketpodcast.tumblr.com. You can get in touch with us on our Patreon and also contribute to our Patreon to make sure that we keep doing these shows every month. That's at patreon.com slash warrocketajax.
01:35:33
Speaker
You can also join our Discord um if you would like to be part of that community of War Rocket Ajax fans, which I would certainly ah recommend doing.
01:35:45
Speaker
ah Just ask us for an invitation to our Discord and we will get you one and you can join over there. If you're nice about it, you've got to be nice about it. Our website is warrocketajax.com. It has every episode of the show we've ever done, including all of these comics catch-ups that we've done.
01:36:01
Speaker
And War Rocket Wiki is the fan repository of information about this show, War Rocket Ajax. If you want to find me and my stuff, go to mattdwilson.net to find links to all my stuff. Chris, where can people find you?
01:36:14
Speaker
Everybody can find me by going to the-isb.com. That is my website. And it has links to all the stuff that I do.
01:36:23
Speaker
Thanks for listening, everybody. We finally talked about Dawn. We hope you and you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed talking about it. That's right, everybody. Until next time, Matt, you're the only one who can wipe away my tears.
01:36:39
Speaker
Or draw them out.
01:36:43
Speaker
Good catching up.