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With Dan Strange
66 Plays5 years ago
When you are sharing the gospel with the people around you, do you think about connecting with them or confronting them? How did Paul approach the members of the culture he worked in? This time on PEP Talk we discuss bringing the gospel into our secular culture.
Our guest is Director of Oak Hill College and lectures in culture, religion and public theology. Dan Strange also worked for UCCF as Co-ordinator of the Religious and Theological Studies Fellowship. He an author whose latest work is Plugged In: Connecting your faith with what you read, watch and play.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. My name is Kristy Mayer and I'm joined by my co-host, Andy Bannister. Hey, Andy.
00:00:16
Speaker
Kristy, it's great to be with you here at Oak Hill College this morning. Who have we got on the show? I know, it's Lustrous Place. We are joined by Dan Strange, the College Director here at Oak Hill. He lectures in Culture and Worldview. He's written multiple books, really, co-authored a few more, and this morning we're going to chat about his latest book, Plugged in. Dan, hello, welcome to the show. Hi guys, great to see you. It's great to have you on the show, Dan. Thanks for joining us.
Understanding 'Plugged In' and Cultural Engagement
00:00:41
Speaker
Dan, we'd love to chat with you about Plugged In, connecting your faith with what you watch, read and play. I loved reading this book and one of the things that you bring out is this idea of connection and confrontation. Can you explain to us what does that actually mean?
00:00:55
Speaker
Yeah, so I think it was recognizing that I think our response to the culture of the world around us, often as churches, we can either kind of look in, go into a holy huddle, or we can lash out, or we can just look like everyone else. And it's trying to, in the book, it's trying to say, how does the gospel both confront and connect
00:01:14
Speaker
with every way of viewing the world. In the book I wrote it in a passage in 1 Corinthians where Paul says we preach Christ crucified and it's the recognition that the gospel of Jesus Christ is a big, I suppose, a big fat no to the world's way of doing things, the world's wisdom. It's foolishness and that's very clear.
00:01:34
Speaker
But on the other hand, Paul doesn't just say we preach Christ crucified into a vacuum. In that passage he talks about two groups of people, Jews and Greeks, and both of those different ethnic groups are looking for different things. They have different worldviews or different narratives, I suppose. Jews look for power, Greeks look for wisdom. And so Paul isn't afraid to say that, yes, we preach Christ crucified in a way that confronts those ways of viewing the world. But he also, at the end of the passage, says that Jesus is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
00:02:02
Speaker
So there's both confrontation
Confrontation, Connection, and Cultural Idolatry
00:02:03
Speaker
and connection. And I suppose I see some Christians who are great at the confrontation, but they don't really know how to connect, and others who are great at the connection, but they don't realise the confrontation. And I think from passages like 1 Corinthians 1, and then the great example in Acts 17, where we see both of those things at the same time. So that's where the confrontation and connection both at the same time. And the book is trying to just say, how do we do that, looking at the world around us and living the lives that we live?
00:02:32
Speaker
That's utterly brilliant. Just picking up on what you just said about some of us might be good at the con- the connection but not the confrontation. I'm just thinking about some of my friends who like love watching Love Island or like The Only Way is Essex and they'll do that to such a point where
00:02:47
Speaker
They'll be with their friends chatting about the different things that are coming up in the relationships and in the love languages, but they aren't really able to be that distinct in those conversations. So there's almost like an overassimilation and overconnection that goes on with the culture, with these cultural artifacts.
00:03:04
Speaker
How would you, what kind of wisdom, what kind of advice would you give for those of us who would be more on the let's connect to the point of losing distinction rather than cutting off? At the end of the book of 1 John, John says doesn't he, you know, beloved, keep yourselves from idols. And I think idolatry is a really helpful
00:03:26
Speaker
tool. We think it's a very blunt tool and it's archaic language, but actually, idolatry is a very scalpel-like tool for analyzing the world. Idols are good things that have been made into God things, and as we suppress the truth in our sin,
00:03:44
Speaker
we substitute God for all kinds of other things and the book is trying to say that if Jesus Christ is not the foundation through which we view the whole world then we replace that with other things. So in answer to your question I think if you take something like Acts 17 where people have rightly said Paul does a lot of work, he does a lot of work understanding where the Athenian culture is coming from, he makes connections all the time,
00:04:08
Speaker
But what are the bookends of that passage? Paul gets to Athens, and it says he was greatly distressed by the idolatry. Literally, it's a city submerged in idolatry, and he has this kind of pooxism, this kind of almost violent revulsion as to the idolatry. Not because he hates the Athenians, because he goes out and does what he always does. He doesn't say, stuff it, I'm off, I'm going to leave these people stewing. He actually wants to engage with them. So you've got that at the one bookend, and at the other bookend of that passage, you've got the call to repentance.
00:04:36
Speaker
So for me, yes, we need to connect, we need to understand where people are coming from, we need to do that really fine-grain work and not be glib or not be superficial, but the bookends of that very famous passage of engagement are idolatry and repentance. And I think that does give us some tram lines, which recognises, it says in 1 Thessalonians, people who've turned from idols to the living God.
00:04:57
Speaker
And I think that does give the seriousness of if we're not following Christ, then we are or we're not being formed by Christ, we are being deformed by other things. And so that big thing about there's no neutrality. I think that kind of is a bit of a wake up call to think that how could we ever assimilate or not be countercultural because the gospel always confronts and it connects. Yeah.
Fear and Cultural Engagement
00:05:22
Speaker
I mean, I love that framework down. And just to come back to the idea of confrontation and connection, you know, as you were describing that, I was wondering, you know, for a lot of Christians, I think in the workplace, perhaps listening to this, who Monday to Friday are out there in culture struggling to kind of relate to their non-Christian friends around them. I wonder if both those temptations to both the confrontation and to overly connect are driven by fear. There's a kind of fear of, you know, cultures going looking more and more, less Christian.
00:05:48
Speaker
and so Christians I think can get sort of fearful and want to lash out, but then at the same time there's the fear of you know being disliked by your friends at work and so you over connect. I wonder if fear is one of the animating issues behind both those tendencies. Yeah and I think it's the issue is not, I suppose it's where fear is placed and I think there's a godly fear that we are to have and I was preaching last night on how in Isaiah 41 we're you know we're
00:06:17
Speaker
God's people are called not to be afraid and then just relating that to the disciples in the boat when Jesus calms the storm and it says the disciples were terrified and I think there's a godly fear that we have about wanting to speak for Jesus everywhere and if we have that righteous fear then actually it doesn't really matter what other people think of us it's what are we doing for God's glory and again going back to that
00:06:42
Speaker
that Paul illustration in Acts 17, he's kind of provoked because he knows that God is provoked. He's so zealous for God's glory and loves God and wants to kind of honor him that I think that that can then, if we have that kind of framework, then I think we will be less ashamed.
00:07:02
Speaker
It's funny, I mean,
Tools for Gospel Engagement
00:07:03
Speaker
you know, as kind of professional evangelist apologists that you can learn all the tools and learn all the skills. But at the end of the day, what does drive a lot of people not to speak about Jesus is not because they haven't been trained properly. It's because they are afraid of what's going to be said to them or how people are going to view them.
00:07:20
Speaker
And I think, you know, but that's why I think we need the encouragement of other Christians that we're not doing this alone and that even little things like, you know, you know, we know that we've been prayed for when we go and have those workplace conversations. I think that's crucial. And your book provides such a helpful kind of toolkit as to how to best go about confronting and connecting culture.
00:07:40
Speaker
Could you just talk us through that? How do we connect and confront with culture? So we've got the kind of big theological framework in place. What are some of the practical ways in which we can channel this fear knowing that we're relying on the spirit in evangelism and other people praying, but how do we actually go about doing this? I think it's a recognition that
00:08:01
Speaker
all human beings if they are human they're made in God's image and how and we know that they are religious beings the bible gives us the eyes through which we see the world and yes there's lots of complicated and complexities we could talk about what what does it mean to live in a secular society and i you know i don't deny that we live in a secular society but i also believe
00:08:21
Speaker
we don't necessarily live in a disenchanted society we live in a very reenchanted society with all other things and this some of the work that I've been doing recently is recognising and you we will know that for all of your you know Stephen Fry's or Dawkins or Hitchens most people are not like that there's just been a huge study done on the nature of unbelief and the recognition that many people have all kinds of belief in all kinds of things because that's
00:08:46
Speaker
And we know as Christians, that's because we're human. We find it very difficult to say, as John Lennon said, above us is only sky. We have this search for the transcendence. Now, again, in the Acts 17 passage when Paul says, you know, people are groping around for the truth. But what we're wanting to do and what I'm wanting people to do is to say, how do we connect Jesus with the fact that people do know God, they're running to God and running away from God at the same time. It comes out in all kinds of weird
00:09:13
Speaker
and weird places and it comes in out in everyday places as well. I mean, one example I've been thinking about, I've done a little bit of work on this, is the Tottenham manager, Richard Pochettino. So he's the manager of a huge, like multi-million dollar club at Tottenham. You think of the science and the business that goes into that.
00:09:32
Speaker
In his office, he has a bowl of lemons because when people come in, he believes the negative energy goes into the lemons and he changes the lemons every four days. And we're told that we live in a kind of a disenchanted secular society. And this stuff's everywhere. You know, the rise of cultures, practices, tarot, spiritualism.
00:09:50
Speaker
champing this idea of people, churches hiring out halls so people can spend a night in a church so that they can wake up with a stained glass window and have a kind of a transcendent experience. We're looking for those things. Julian Barnes wrote this book, Nothing to be Scared Of, and he starts the book by saying, you know, I don't believe in God, but I miss him. And I do think that is where a lot of people are. Yes, you do get your hardcore atheist. Yes, you get, you know, but lots of normal people
00:10:16
Speaker
are
Cultural Dialogue and Evangelism Strategies
00:10:17
Speaker
running away from God and searching for God at the same time and we've got something to say to that.
00:10:23
Speaker
I think that's really, I think that's really really helpful. I think it's interesting you mentioned, you know, Dawkins as we're recording this, he's got his new book out and I think a lot of people see that, get afraid and assume that's their colleague at work. But yeah, I mean, just like, just last weekend, you know, as you were telling that story, I was running out on a little fishing trip up on one of the Scottish locks and myself on a Christian friend, we were there on the boat with the fishing guide. He figured out we were Christians by something we said, a fascinating conversation, he asked a few questions and then we turned it on to him and said, so what do you believe?
00:10:49
Speaker
And his initial reaction was, oh, I don't believe anything. And then he paused, he went, well, no, I say that, I don't think that's the end. I think there has to be something more than, and just this whole thing opened up. So I think certainly one thing I think is really helpful for listeners to think about is, you know, their colleagues, our friends, our neighbors, yeah, there may be some hard core. How down would we, how do we stir some of those conversations? In fact, people who initially present out, I'm not interested. I think, no, so I'd want to distinguish between the way we talk about the kind of,
00:11:19
Speaker
a biblical framework and the words that we use in communication. So for example, I don't think, I mean you can bait people very easily and say, you know, oh, I heard on the pep talk podcast that, you know, you've got faith and my atheist friend will say, I don't have faith at all. Yes, you do. And you can just have a ping pong.
00:11:35
Speaker
I wouldn't talk about faith, I'd talk about commitments. People have commitments and actually people have ultimate commitments to things. If you keep on asking the question, what in a nice way, where do you get that from? Why do you believe that? If you keep on asking that question, you'll realise that we all have these ultimate commitments that actually can't be proved. It's through those commitments that we then judge what is true, what is false. And I think everyone has
00:11:58
Speaker
I think everyone has these ultimate commitments that are seen in terms of what not just what we believe but what drives us what gets us up in the morning what are our hopes what are our fears and the key thing I think Andy on that is if Christians don't have
00:12:14
Speaker
deep non-christian friendship with friendships with non-christians It'll all be very superficial when you're talking about ultimate commitments You have to know someone because it involves trust to for me especially in the British context for people to kind of Spill the beans about what they're thinking about things and that's why I think in the context of relationship. It's so important you're not going to get that on a you could get that on a bus journey, but you're but in a deep conversation where people really are
00:12:39
Speaker
can trust each other and share things. That's where you get to those deep kind of commitments. And you will know, we will know, won't we, that sometimes people put intellectual objections to Christianity and you realise that's not the real problem. Exactly. There's something underneath. They've had a bad experience or they've got a deep issue that they've never wanted to express. And those are the real reasons.
00:13:00
Speaker
So I think, you know, the depth of relationship and again asking about commitments and, you know, and I think when you start doing that, you realize, my friend, there's no time for me talking about Jesus or Christianity or the Bible. But you know what? There are things that drive them. There are things that they get up for. They do think they need deliverance from something. They do think there's a problem in the world and this is how we can sort it.
00:13:24
Speaker
And that's what Paul, in Acts 17, that's what Paul is doing. He's walking around and looking at the objects of worship. What are the objects of worship that your friend is engaged in? Yeah. Right. And that's exactly what you do in your book, this subversive fulfillment and approach which you unpack by talking about how we enter, explore, expose, and then evangelize. Could you give us an example of what that might look like?
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, in the book, I mean, what I do, I recognise over many years of teaching this material that the best material comes from students. So I've set an essay for over 10 years now where I get all the students to do a kind of a theological analysis on a cultural artefact, just a very normal thing. And over the years, I've had probably hundreds of great essays and some of the best ones are in the book. But it's saying here are things that normal people do.
00:14:10
Speaker
adult colouring books, which were very much for both, zombies, bird watching. And then I suppose the interesting one I found that really started me off was distilling on Japanese toilets. We think a toilet's a toilet. How can that have any evangelistic theological significance? But you realise that in Japan,
00:14:28
Speaker
the idea of hygiene, technology, Shinto, feng shui, all of these things go into the production of a toilet. And you think, in that example, if you think that this has significance, what about the other ordinary everyday things that people do? You know, why is it that
00:14:47
Speaker
when a big, well, something like the terrible tragedy of the Manchester bombing, why is it that it's important for people to come together in a stadium and sing somewhere over the rainbow and there's something more than just singing it in your bedroom? There's the idea that we will feel connected and that idea of connection, again, we want that experience of transcendence and that's ripe for gospel engagement.
00:15:11
Speaker
I think so, and I love the fact that you've, you know, several times in this interview, Dan, you've mentioned Acts 17. I mean, I love that as someone who does a lot of work with Muslims. I mean, one of the things I love about what Paul does there, as you described, he walks around and he sort of diagnoses what's going on, but then he doesn't stand up and rail against it. He finds this quite staggeringly brave, given his Jewish background, ability to go, hey, that unknown God, let's start from there. Yes, yeah. And that's what fascinates me.
00:15:35
Speaker
How do we do that in today's culture? Perhaps, you know, hold back on an initial response to come down instantly confronting. Yes. And go to bridge that to... Yeah. Well, the first thing is, I mean, this is very basic. We've got to listen. We've got to, we don't just jump in. You know, I have a tendency to kind of blur it out and then I have to draw back. But I think if we have the patience, and this is where a book, I mean, one very helpful resource, a little book, I'm sure you've talked about it before, by Greg Kukul called Tactics.
00:16:02
Speaker
on how to you the art of asking a question that's going to elicit a response and you don't have to say much and I think and again it's just basic love isn't it not caricaturing or stereotyping where someone's going to come from listen to what they're saying and then respond to that now that's hard because it's not a pre-packaged you know we're already with our kind of
00:16:21
Speaker
with our tracks or our set apologetic ways of doing things but this calls for listening because every human every person is completely different and yes we need to generalize don't we there is that there are it's important for example Andy you will know that you know there are some basic
00:16:37
Speaker
facts that you might know about islam but every single muslim is different and especially in our western context you know but there's a whole mix of of stuff going on so i think listening is is is is absolutely crucial um you know and i say i don't know i'm not the first one to say i think and it's probably done it and people like glenstagram before when people say i don't believe in god
00:16:56
Speaker
I almost always come back and say, I bet I don't believe the God you don't believe in because they're not rejecting the trying Christian God of the Bible and hearing what they do think God is. And that's
Theological Clarity and Proactive Engagement
00:17:07
Speaker
the game where the Acts 17 thing is really important because when Paul stands up, the way I describe it in the book, I think he's giving a run up and a run through.
00:17:13
Speaker
He's been preaching about Jesus in the resurrection. They say, we don't understand a word you're saying, you're a seed picker. And then I think Paul has to stand back and say, right, from now on, given your way of viewing the world, when I say God, I mean this, a God who doesn't dwell in temples made by human hands, but a God who is near to us. And immediately, by doing that, he's distinguishing what other people would think God is from his saying, from now on, when I say God, I mean this.
00:17:35
Speaker
And that comparison of gods, I think, are very helpful and needed, especially in our context where people have all kinds of weird views, which is a mixture of Christianity and what they've seen on TV and people in clouds and, you know, reincarnate, all these different things. So distinguishing what we believe, which is why I believe to do good evangelism, you need to be a theologian. You need to know who is the God that we worship. And that's important.
00:18:05
Speaker
I think that's really, really helpful. I think also as well, that loops back down as well to the fear thing that we started with. I think when we can get the idea into people's heads that actually, just by asking those questions, you know, your colleague at work who's a Buddhist or a Muslim, rather than be afraid that you don't know what they believe or you don't know how to engage, just ask some questions. So, I gather you're a Muslim. You believe in God. What's God like? What do you think?
00:18:25
Speaker
And usually what I find is interesting, when you do that and you listen, it's not long before they turn around to you and say, so what do you think? And then the doors open. And again, many of us, for example, wrestle a lot with something like in apologetics and evangelism, something like the problem of evil. And I'm not saying, you know, the Christian has all the answers to that, but we can say something. I sometimes think we're on the defensive.
00:18:49
Speaker
But if we go on the offensive, not being offensive, but go on the offensive, if we have the struggle with the problem of evil, how do our non-Christians understand evil? In fact, how do they understand there is a concept of evil or what do they think? And I think trying to kind of, we sometimes think that we go on the defensive when actually we need to go on the offensive and ask questions. And you're right, then, you know, getting people to talk. Most people have not thought at that kind of level. Right.
00:19:18
Speaker
One of the great passages in Isaiah is this idea of the idolater and it says, you know, no one stops to think and I think most people aren't, they're not doing a non-Christian version of pep talk. People are just living
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:19:32
Speaker
their lives and so, you know, we need to try and elicit responses out of them because they've probably never even thought about it before.
00:19:40
Speaker
Dan Strange, thank you so much for joining us this morning. His book, Plugged In, is available from the Good Book Company. Get hold of it. I have one in my hands right now. It is excellent. Thank you so much for your time and we look forward to joining you guys. Thanks, Dan. It's been a pleasure.
00:19:56
Speaker
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00:20:21
Speaker
Thanks for listening to PepTalk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. Hope you enjoyed the show and look forward to seeing you next time.