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S3E15: Student Bar Leadership, with Dalila Haden RLAW'23 and Ashley Zimmerman RLAW'22
13 Plays2 years ago
SBA Presidents Dalila Haden RLAW'23 and Ashley Zimmerman RLAW'22 join Interim Co-Dean Rose Cuison-Villazor and Co-Dean Kimberly Mutcherson to talk about their law school careers and their roles as leaders within the Rutgers Law School community.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Delilah's Journey: From Violin to Law
00:00:02
Speaker
I'm Kim Mutterson, and I am the co-dean of Rutgers Law School on the Camden campus. I'm Rose Quizon Villazor, the interim co-dean of Rutgers Law School in Newark, and this is the power of attorney. And today we get to interview two other women leaders, Ashley Zimmerman, who is the president of the Student Bar Association on the Camden campus, and Delilah Hayden, who is the president of the Student Bar Association
00:00:28
Speaker
on the Newark campus. So welcome to both of you. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. Thank you so much for having us. Absolutely. Well, we like to begin these podcast interviews by sharing our origin stories. So if we could just start with that Delilah, tell us about who you are. Share one story about yourself growing up.
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm Delilah Hayden. I'm 24. I live in West Orange, New Jersey, which is just outside of Newark, but I actually went to Newark public schools and then went to a private school in Newark. So I essentially kind of grew up in Newark. So it's nice getting to come back to Newark after going to a high school that was a boarding school in central New Jersey, then going to college out of state and coming back here.
00:01:17
Speaker
I think, I don't know, I'll use this origin story as like a fun fact thing. So I used to play, well, I still kind of play violin. And so I would take lessons every weekend from when I was three until I went off to high school at Newark School of the Arts in downtown Newark off Broad Street. And that was like a passion, a huge passion I had for a few years. I got to like travel to Austria to play. It was something I really enjoyed. I almost did music therapy in college, but clearly not because I'm in law school.
00:01:46
Speaker
I really enjoyed it and I think it's a nice fun fact. People are like, oh wow, you played violin for so long and you're not like violinists. So I'm like, no, I found other passions. So it's a nice little thing to describe. What made you switch from music to, we've had several people on the podcast who've had really interesting stories about switching from some sort of passion and then coming over to law. So what made you switch from music to law school?
00:02:14
Speaker
Um, well, the big thing it wants to do is music combined with therapy. And I think I was super interested in therapy. And so I did a psychology major at school. And while I loved like the social psychology context, I didn't really like the science part of it. I was also just bad. Um, so I figured I really wanted to help people. Um, and so I continued to do music as like a pastime. So I would do orchestra, I would do lessons, chamber music. Um, but I decided to try to go in more of a social psychology route of it. And so that.
00:02:43
Speaker
made me want to start taking different classes related to sociology organizations, like effects of social interactions. And eventually I found myself interested in policy and seeing how policy could help larger groups of people, especially minority groups, underrepresented groups. And then one of my teachers said, you know,
00:03:01
Speaker
You should probably go to law school. I feel like you do really well there. And I was like, no, I was going to graduate degree in policy. He's like, no, just take the LSAT. Think about it. Come back to me. I took the LSAT. Not like law school at all. Let me tell you all listening to this. But I did a lot more research on law school. I learned of everything I could do beyond policy, helping people, the different opportunities that Rutgers has. I'm not currently in the MSW program, but there is one combined with JD. And I fell in love kind of with law. And then I decided, you know what? I should go to law school.
00:03:31
Speaker
And now I'm here in law school, and I am not studying anything with music in law school
Ashley's Path to Law: Childhood Inspirations
00:03:35
Speaker
right now. It's kind of intellectual property, but that's a different story for later. Do you still play the violin? I do still play. I haven't played recently, because I've been pretty busy with my note and homework and studying her finals. But I do still play, though. And serving as SBA president. Yeah, that's true. That is also kind of like a part-time job.
00:03:59
Speaker
Right. Well, let's get in Ashley's origin story, and then we'll talk about why you all made the choice to become SBA presidents, which is a huge role to take on in the law school. So Ashley, how did you end up here? Sure. So I'm Ashley Zimmerman. I'm 25 years old. I was born and raised here in South Jersey in Galster County. And I've kind of always known that I wanted to go to law school since I was little.
00:04:27
Speaker
My dad was in law enforcement for 26 years. And when I was in fifth grade, I went to take your child to work day with him. And he was captain of his police department at the time. And I really thought it was going to be a boring day, spending his office, doing nothing. And there was court going on that day. And the municipal courtroom was right next door to the station. So we went on over and sat in the back of the courtroom
00:04:57
Speaker
And when I was younger, I was really, really, like, shy. My parents always said I was afraid of my own shadow. If anyone came up to us, you know, I hid behind my parents' legs. And the judge saw me sitting in the back of the courtroom and he's like, you know, who is this? And my dad was like, oh, this is my daughter, Ashley. And he's like, why don't you come on up? And I'm like, freaking out, like, oh, my gosh, it's packed courtroom. I'm scared.
00:05:21
Speaker
So I go up, I sit next to him on the judges bench and I was there for the entire session. And ever since then, I've just been so interested in the law and learning more about it. And, you know, the judge, Judge J.R. Powell had such a big impact on my life. And I have always said, I hope one day that I could, you know, be a judge and inspire someone like he inspired me. So here I am. I can't believe I'm graduating next month and finally reaching my goal. So it's been awesome.
00:05:50
Speaker
That's amazing. And I'm the same way. I was somebody who decided I was basically 10 when I decided that I wanted to be a lawyer. And so that was my trajectory. I'm curious what you majored in in college. Sure. So I went to Rowan University for undergrad, and I majored in political science. OK. Yeah. Yeah. The pretty standard major.
Leadership Beginnings: SBA Presidency
00:06:13
Speaker
Pretty standard, yeah.
00:06:15
Speaker
I was history in English. Okay, awesome. It's nice to ask people their majors because there are so many different things that people major in and then, you know, somehow they end up coming to law school. So there's no rule about what you have to major in in order to become a law student eventually.
00:06:32
Speaker
I was a political science major and communications minor. If I can go back in time, I would have done things differently only because now I now know that you can take any major in college. And so I would have taken up music or social psychology or history. Some of the areas that I'm particularly interested in these days, not that I don't like government or political science, right? Because those of course are interesting and that's relevant to what we do
00:07:01
Speaker
what we study in law school. But college is such a unique experience that allows us to grow and explore who we are and what we want to do. And to the extent that when you go to law school, it's about thinking critically. Well, there are many different majors, even music, right? Music allows you to go in depth into the composition, the timing and sound. So there are so many ways that we can engage in critical thinking.
00:07:27
Speaker
beyond political science and communications, which I focused on in college. Well, why don't we talk about SBA leadership? And so Ashley, you're a third-year law student, and Delilah, you're too well, which is really, really amazing that you did that because your second year as a too well is one of the most busy times in law school. So we'll start off with you, Delilah. Why did you decide to take up this leadership position?
00:07:57
Speaker
So it's very interesting how I came into the position. So I wasn't originally president in the beginning of the year. Our president actually graduated early. So there was a large gap that needed to be filled come January when he graduated in January. And so I at first was corresponding secretary, which essentially was a role that was kind of a filler. We kind of helped with planning social events and helping other people with their programming and their duties.
00:08:26
Speaker
And so it was interesting how I thought about it. I was like, wow, like, you know, I've kind of helped everyone a little bit. I followed Rohan a lot as his friend and also assisting him in his duties. I'm going to try it and I'm going to run for it. So in thinking about it, I was very much like, oh, I'm just going to take a leap here. But I think the more I was down, I guess, the campaign, you make it seem more formal, in the campaign process, I started to believe a lot more in myself when I was like, wow, like Rector's Law, we have a lot more that students want to accomplish and especially
00:08:56
Speaker
In January, we were online at first, but I saw that there was a lot we could have done once we were off online and once we came back in February. And a lot of people wanted to do more interactive things and a lot more group oriented and a lot more like inner, like let's be law students, but also let's be friends. Let's learn more about each other because we didn't really get those opportunities last semester. And so I really emphasize community as president. I think that was one thing that especially our students really needed and also wanted. So I eventually won, but I think
00:09:27
Speaker
Noting what we needed to do to grow as students and what students wanted for their growth was really important to me. And I guess I went from taking a leap to absorbing that leap fully and just growing from that is what made me president. And well, I'm a 2L, so I'm running again for it now. So I'm in the process of that as well. So hopefully I'll be there next year. Otherwise, that's my presidential story. I love that you're building a political dynasty.
00:09:55
Speaker
You'll like select who your VP is going to be and then that person will run and it'll just be like, you know, for generations to come. Well, my VP candidate right now, he's also a 2-0. So he's currently the VP right now as well. So he's also trying to run again. Oh, okay. All right. What about you, Ashley? What made you decide that you wanted to spend your third year of law school being the SBA president, which is not necessarily the easiest job. And we should talk about that too. You know, what, what the expectations are of being an SBA president.
00:10:25
Speaker
But Ashley, first, talk about what made you decide that you wanted to take on that role.
Responsibilities of an SBA President
00:10:29
Speaker
Sure. So I have always loved getting involved and making a difference, whether that be in my school or my community. And so when I learned about the Student Bar Association, my 1L year, I was so excited to get involved. And so I ran as a 1L class representative and was elected and served my 1L year.
00:10:48
Speaker
was on our social committee, constitution committee, and I just really, really enjoyed my time getting involved and advocating for my peers. So then at the end of my 1L year, I ran for vice president and was elected for my 2L year to serve as VP. And so I was the chair of our constitution committee, and I also served on the academic policy committee with the deans and professors. So that was really cool.
00:11:15
Speaker
So by the end of my tool year, I had the decision to run again. And so I felt like it was my time to move to the next step, which was either 3L class president or president. So I decided to go for president and it has been wonderful. We have an incredible executive board here at Camden. So it's been great working with them and advocating for our student body. So, Ashley, tell us a little bit more about what it needs to be SBA president.
00:11:42
Speaker
What are the list of responsibilities that you've had to take on in this role? Sure. So as SBA president, we are responsible for overseeing the entire student bar association. We run the monthly meetings. We have meetings every third Friday of the month. So we are in charge of running the student body meetings as well as the executive board meetings and our main
00:12:08
Speaker
I guess mission as president is advocating for our classmates. You know, if classmates come to us with concerns or issues, we try and help respond and find solutions by either meeting with them or bringing it to the attention of the deans or professors, whoever it may involve. Delilah, is that consistent too with how SBA presidencies in Newark are run?
00:12:34
Speaker
Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. I think as president, you do serve essentially as leader and representative for the whole student body. And I think even, I don't know if you've had this actually, but some ways like people come to you in a weird, like, as if you're like their counselor, their therapist, they're like, what should I do? Like, how do you, how can you help me solve this? And I'm like,
00:12:55
Speaker
I'm a 2-0. So it's really nice because like, as I said, oh, I want to do like a therapy background. It's like, oh, I love helping people. But then you're like, wow, like, people are really seeing this as part of the job. And I'm like, this is, I guess it's an informal part that just comes to you as a person in power. But also like, you're not like, you're not as much as like, as powerful as like the deans, like you're not like in charge of the school running. And people see you as the close enough replacement for them, they could go and be like, oh, this is a student.
00:13:22
Speaker
They're nice. They'll be with me for at least
Community Initiatives and Challenges
00:13:24
Speaker
another year. I could talk to them about whatever. But definitely the advocate part though, which I think is an amazing and probably the best part of the job of being able to talk to people who are your peers and then go from being a peer to being a representative in a more formal environment. It's like, oh, we could switch up any moment. So it's a very nice fun part of the job. What are some of the issues that you all have been working on either in Newark or in Camden during your tenure as SBA presidents?
00:13:54
Speaker
Ashley, you want to go first? One really good thing that happened this year was we created the SALT committee, which is also known as DSAC at New Work. And so this was spearheaded by a 2L SBA representative, Gabby Sosa Sanchez, and then our university senator, Stephanie Menonia. So they came to me.
00:14:16
Speaker
right after I was elected and said you know DSAC is really awesome at Newark I think we should think about creating something similar here at Camden and so we jump started that in the fall semester and for anyone who's unfamiliar basically this is a SBA committee that works together to send out a school-wide survey to all students on campus and it asks students
00:14:41
Speaker
a range of questions from academics, financial aid, housing, course offerings, diversity and inclusion, health issues, et cetera. And students are able to answer it anonymously and give their feedback, share what issues or challenges they may be facing. And then the committee reviews them and presents it to the deans and tries to find resolutions to the issues that our students are facing.
00:15:10
Speaker
This is a really great way to kind of see all of the issues that are happening that we might not see from the surface. And I'm really glad that we were able to implement that this year. And I hope it continues next year. And I hope we're able to kind of find resolutions to the issues that were presented to us through the survey that came out in the fall. Great. What about you, Delilah? Are there particular issues or a particular issue or initiative that you've been focusing on?
00:15:40
Speaker
Well, I think the biggest thing I've been focusing on as president I think is especially trying to foster leadership and foster growth in different members of SBA. I know coming in, I think a lot of times over time you kind of lose like sometimes transition documents or transition procedures. And so a lot of the times we've had, especially during COVID, some procedures and some transitions were kind of a bit spotty. So when we came in this year, we realized, oh, we didn't really have an orientation our year.
00:16:09
Speaker
in my 1L. So we all figured out what to do on SBA from watching and from just doing. And so we realized, you know, like in person, that doesn't really work. People just come in and they're like, what is this to do? We're like, oh, you can figure it out yourself. And then we realized that's a hard thing to do. So we never fully did an orientation. I really focused on trying to foster leadership within the 1Ls. And so I even before I was president, we did a mental health tabling and I helped out with two 1Ls and we got a bunch of little like
00:16:37
Speaker
therapy like dollar trinkets, we got coloring book pages, candy and hand this out during finals weekend. A bunch of people came up, they wrote notes of encouragement and took some notes of encouragement. And now it's like a small thing we did. And so we realized a lot of these little small initiatives we do, whether it be a tabling event, or whether it be office hours, or whether it be a social thing at a social event or a bar location outside of school, just these small things that show like, oh, we're here to support you, whether it be accommodating, you were giving you discounts, or giving you a free
00:17:07
Speaker
giveaway thing is really what students just love to see, especially when so many of us were affected so significantly last year by COVID. Just seeing that, oh, students are there for me so I can just reach out to these 40 students and SBA is really helpful. So I think a biggest issue is just again, like putting our community back together, just from like the student perspective. And I think we've been able to really address that. I think, especially since a lot of 1Ls took initiative on doing a lot of these events, it provides a lot more encouragement and
00:17:35
Speaker
Community building is definitely important. I mean, both Dean Mattressen and I have also on the faculty and staff and administrator. And we've been doing our best to rebuild that because the almost two years of us being remote and then some, right, has impacted many of us in different ways.
Navigating Post-Pandemic Law School
00:17:53
Speaker
And so from what you just said, Delilah, I've really enjoyed going down to the atrium and seeing tables and
00:18:02
Speaker
the tabling events and students just hanging out. Now that we're also unmasked, then I can see what people look like, right? Like, oh, that's what you look like. That sounds great. So there's something there about all of us being back in person. But what's interesting too about what you just said, Delilah, is that
00:18:19
Speaker
When I met with some student leaders in planning, let's say, barristers, they said that some students even know what barristers ball is because two years we didn't have it. And not only did some people not know about it, but also they didn't know barristers ball is a prom, right? And some students didn't know about it. And they also, if they heard about it, they didn't know how to plan it because what did it look like? Who do you talk to in making a reservation? How would you talk to about
00:18:48
Speaker
food policies. And so there was so much loss in the two years of that inter interactions that we're all used to before the pandemic. So it's just so great to hear about what you both have been doing to rebuild community and and get some input from students about how to make the law school better. Yeah. And even without covid, I think that one of the things that can be really challenging in probably in any sort of, you know, institutional environment. But I know law school. So that's what I focus on.
00:19:17
Speaker
is that some student leaders are really good about transition planning, right, when you were talking about Delilah.
00:19:23
Speaker
And some student leaders are like, hope you can figure it out. I'm out of here. And it's such an important part of leadership, right? To leave a path for people to follow behind you, not only so that they can do what you did, but also so that they can potentially improve upon what you did. They can learn from your mistakes. So in that vein, I'd love to talk a little bit about something. We've already sort of talked about things that you felt were really successful.
00:19:50
Speaker
and that you've been doing this year. I think one of the great challenges of leadership is learning from your mistakes or learning from things that didn't go the way that you wanted them to go. And I'm curious if you've had any of those experiences while you've been SBA presidents, and if so, what lessons you've been able to draw from that. Yeah, I can say I've had a few of those. I think for me, sometimes I tend to be
00:20:17
Speaker
While I get anxious on things, sometimes I tend to get overly optimistic. And I'm like, oh, look, this initiative will go great. Everyone will volunteer. Everyone will sign up. So I came up with this carpool idea, and it was when actually the gas prices were typically rising. We lost one of our decks to renovation. I was like, everyone's going to sign up for this. It's going to be great. And so I sent it out at first, because I didn't know if I wanted it to be an SBA initiative. I just wanted it to be like, oh, Delilah got this idea. And so I sent it to, like,
00:20:44
Speaker
our class group. And to other people, I sent it over email, like for us to be able to share. And then like five people signed up for it. And I'm like, okay, what's not happening?
00:20:55
Speaker
And a lot of people have been asking like, Oh, how did the initiative go? I was like, Oh, like, we're still getting some feedback. It was kind of a huge surprise. I mean, I wasn't mad about it, because I was like, you know, this is like a huge personal risk. Like, it's starting in April, it's the last month of school, some people are probably like, you know what, I'm just gonna bear out.
00:21:14
Speaker
get the gas and go. But I think also sometimes the huge thing is you have to accurately measure your student climate at school, which is hard to do sometimes when it's like there's an overall like world climate and you're like, oh, we're all like law students, like we're all
00:21:29
Speaker
Also, normal people were paying a ton of money for gas in New Jersey. We have less parking spaces now. Everyone's going to love to do this. Everyone's going to want to work together. And then you're forgetting, oh, we also have emails. And people don't maybe check their emails all the time. Or they'll see, oh, carpool. They're like, oh.
00:21:47
Speaker
spam or something. I'm like, oh no, tell me. So I think one of the challenges I've had for myself at least is sometimes be realistic with myself. And sometimes I get too overexcited. And I'm like, this will absolutely work. And then I'm like, OK, this might be a great idea now, but let's think of other ways that it could have been facilitated or dispersed better throughout the student community. So that's been a personal challenge of mine. What about you, Ashley? Yeah, I'm trying to think about this.
00:22:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think one of the biggest challenges, at least for me this year, was definitely dealing kind of with a disconnection from COVID and trying to get people to attend events and kind of having that unrealistic expectation like Delilah was just mentioning. You know, we want all these people to show up to these events and I know for one event we had zero people showed up and it was really disheartening, especially when you're
00:22:41
Speaker
sending out emails you're posting on social media about it and you're really excited and then no one comes up and just kind of figuring out you know what we can do to fix that kind of disconnect from covid because our first year students started on zoom or second year students started fully on zoom and some classes are still on zoom some aren't and there's you know kind of a disconnect between
00:23:04
Speaker
all of our students and so trying to figuring out how we can bring everyone back together and I think thankfully towards the end of the semester with no masks and having our barishes ball and having everyone kind of come together I thought that was really great and bringing everyone you know the three L's with the one L's and getting to really get to know each other at the end of the school year was really great but that was kind of an issue towards the beginning of the school year and the beginning of this semester. Yeah I think I think one of the things that we're all
00:23:33
Speaker
sort of struggling with is figuring out, you know, of course, obviously, how do we come back from this really, really rough couple of years that we've all been living through, but also trying to figure out are there things that
00:23:46
Speaker
we can take from that experience that are good things that we want to continue to do within the law school. And of course, there are also things that are not such good things. As you said, Ashley, it's nice to not have to wear masks everywhere all the time. So yeah, that's a struggle, I think, that everybody is really
00:24:04
Speaker
working through right now and how to get people just back physically in the space and attending events, because it's such a rich part of the law school experience, I think, you know, being able to build community in that way. You know, it's interesting, too, when we think about incoming students and future students, many of them like us were all affected by COVID and had to engage in remote learning or remote working. And so it seems as if the last two and a half years has really
00:24:33
Speaker
have really fundamentally changed expectations about what school, what learning looks like, should look like, and then how do we balance some of the innovations that we've been able to use in the last two and a half years with the need to be in person? It's hard, it's not an easy task to figure out, but Ashley, you mentioned earlier the survey that you did, and I think, is that the same survey that was done also? This is a law school at both locations,
00:25:01
Speaker
Right. Okay. Because I saw that the student response rate was high. And what's great about that is that we get input from students about, okay, so what should DEI look like at diversity, equity and inclusion? Or what should classrooms look like? Should we have more hybrid opportunities or not? Can we in light of that, I just I'm just wondering how, how much do you two work together? Or, and even more broadly, the SBA as student body organizations of both locations, how
00:25:31
Speaker
What opportunities, if any, have you been able to have? I mean, it's already almost the end of the semester, almost the end of the year. And we are about 80 miles apart. How have you tried to collaborate? You can feel the love across the state there. So actually, one of your executive board members reached out to me beginning of this semester. There was an unfortunate passing of one of our classmates.
00:26:00
Speaker
wanted to figure out how we could show our Rutgers love and support and so Newark and I combined forces and we collected donations to send to I believe it was called Animal Easel Fund. We sent over a thousand dollars from both campuses in memory of the students that passed away and I thought that was really nice that we were able to kind of work together with them, join forces and just kind of show that we're one big Rutgers family so that was really nice.
00:26:28
Speaker
So going back to sort of lessons from COVID, are there things, I mean, I can't imagine having started law school remotely. I mean, I just admire all of our students who had to come into law school that way. But I'm curious whether there are things that were made available or ways that people taught or
00:26:52
Speaker
you know, anything that you think, you know, I actually am kind of happy that happened or I'm kind of happy that professors started using, you know, Zoom more or, or recorded lectures or, you know, whatever it might be. Are there things that will, that come out of COVID that you, that you hope we keep going forward? And if the answer is no, that's fine with me too, but I don't, I don't think, and I think even in the profession, right? I mean, the number of students who have had,
00:27:19
Speaker
internships or you've been working for law firms and have been doing it remotely and are still doing it remotely is quite something, right? The future of work is definitely being impacted by those couple of years that we spent outside of our physical spaces. So yeah, are there any things that you hope that we continue to do institutionally that we started to do because of the pandemic?
Internships and Practical Experience
00:27:43
Speaker
Well, one thing I loved, I wouldn't say which torch professor I had, but I loved when he didn't cold call us. And he says in alphabetical order by last name. So that was pretty nice. But that was sarcastic, dreaded cold calling. Otherwise, I think, I don't know if this was, I don't really think it was a school's dream. It was kind of just,
00:28:11
Speaker
It was interesting how I think being online, I was a 1L, so it was very like we were all learning law school and the environment together. It was so interesting how so many of us got so close within the first fall semester times when I gained so many friends from my large, which is legal analysis, writing and reading skills. I might've messed that up, but it's actually legal. Oh, thank you.
00:28:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's pretty much like a legal, you learn how to legally synthesize, analyze, write, and read, and write different briefs and memorandums. And I loved my class. Some of my best friends in law school were from my Lars class and from my section, both in the spring and the fall. But one thing I really commend, I had a professor in property who was just amazing. Like she had, we had one day,
00:29:06
Speaker
where she decided not to teach anything and we just had to learn and love the law day. And so she brought in one of her former students. She used to work at Seton Hall, so she had one of her former students who now works for her perception students, Professor Godso. She's amazing. I don't know. But he talked essentially about his work doing criminal law and civil litigation, his experience in the South and how she inspired him.
00:29:33
Speaker
And she had another colleague come in who also was involved in the law. But it was just so nice in that moment how she was like, let's take a break from just learning about property law. And let's talk about just the law and how it affects all of us and what you can do after law school and such. And for me, she was honestly such a mentor, even outside of property. She was my internship advisor for when I did an internship placement at the district attorney's office in Newark.
00:30:00
Speaker
She's just been there. We talked over the summer. We shared TV shows together. And so I think, and this is just one example. Like I had many amazing professors in my one L year and many amazing ones in my two L year. And I'm sure I'll have more amazing ones in my three L year. And I think just one great thing that professors did was learning to reach out and just connecting with their students on a more, more deep, a deeper level. I really just had professors who would ask how I was doing if I stayed late to ask a question after class.
00:30:29
Speaker
They would ask me, my family, they would remember things. They would say, oh, I remember we talked about like critical race theory or interest in working in civil litigation or your background and coming to law school. And one of my my large professor, Professor Solet, had introduced me to Professor Valverde and set me up with doing a research assistant position with her during the summer last summer. And I helped her form and gain resources for a website and.
00:30:51
Speaker
Now I'm Professor Valverde's person. I super respected the school. And so I think that those professors who just really took the extra leap and just reached out to students and made those instant connections, like, well, they probably still do that in person. Just being online made it worthwhile because it's so easy to connect with your fellow students. But I bet for them, to be honest, a lot of people had their cameras turned off. So I'm sure for them, it was hard. How am I doing in class right now? And just hearing them try to ask us how we're doing, being personal with us, like,
00:31:18
Speaker
learning about their families and learning about our families was just so nice. And I think that really helped me to do well in 1L and helped me to really feel like a member of the community at the school. And just if that, I mean, that has continued as I've heard from, especially those teachers who I've talked about, but that was just an amazing part that I think that Rutgers really should be known for. Our professors and faculty and administrators really do care about students and just from what they did during COVID, that's the reason that should be commended.
Choosing the Right Law School
00:31:46
Speaker
Especially I always be with such pride when we hear our names being praised in the way that you just did I just it makes me so happy to hear about we know they're great, but it's just it's so amazing. So thank you for sharing that So definitely I would echo everything that Delilah just said, you know our professors are
00:32:16
Speaker
Um, you know, they were going through COVID with us too. So we were all in it together. Um, and I was a one L, uh, in March, 2020. So I started in person my one L year. And then in March, 2020, we quickly switched to remote learning and everyone was just kind of a mess, but the good thing was we were all going through it together. The students on the professors.
00:32:40
Speaker
And so I would echo with what Delilah said in that, you know, they went above and beyond to make sure that we were okay, you know, going through such a difficult part in our lives, but also that we were learning the material as well and understanding everything with remote learning. I think one advantage that I was gonna say going back to the original question is with Zoom, we're able to hear from different speakers. I know for me personally,
00:33:08
Speaker
In Admola, we had someone from the ASPCA come and speak to us via Zoom. Last week in plea bargaining, we had a judge come and speak to us via Zoom. So with technology, it makes things easier for people to speak to our classes rather than come all the way to Camden, New Jersey. So I think that's one of the advantages that I think would be really awesome if professors could continue to do that as we come fully in person.
00:33:36
Speaker
I don't think that's going to go away because it's so convenient and also provides greater access to information that people are willing to share their time and resources and not have to travel because that also takes a toll on their families, on their schedule. After Delilah was talking about her work in the US Attorney's Office, wouldn't it be great to learn more about some of your other work that you did, internships? Yeah, I would love to hear about some of the
00:34:00
Speaker
internship, externship, or clinic experiences that folks have been able to have. Ashley, do you want to start this one? Sure. My first year of law school that summer, I interned with a judge in Gloucester County in the Civil Division, and it was fully remote because of COVID, but I'm still very thankful that I had the opportunity to get experience that summer.
00:34:23
Speaker
And then my 2L summer, since I had gotten experience with a judge, I wanted to get experience working in a firm. So I was at Brown & Connery, which is in Haddonfield, New Jersey, and they pretty much specialize in everything besides family-long criminal law. They do labor and employment law, bankruptcy, tax, you name it. They pretty much cover everything.
00:34:47
Speaker
It was really nice to get exposure to all areas of the law and to see, you know, what I liked and what I disliked. So that was my second year. It was a very strong Rutgers law contingent there. So that was my second summer. And then my third year this year I had two externships. Last semester I was at the Gloucester County prosecutor's office and I
00:35:13
Speaker
an extern there for three credits. So I did a lot of hours there and I did a lot of work in their family division doing plea bargains for domestic violence restraining order type cases. And then this semester, I was at the US Attorney's Office, which was fully remote, unfortunately, but it was still awesome to get experience there as well. So it's had a lot of experience in the civil and criminal kind of figuring out what I like and what I dislike. So it's been great.
00:35:44
Speaker
Excellent. How about you, Delilah? Yeah, you're still kind of early on. I am. Fortunately, so I'm an MSP. So I participated in the SIPP program, which is the MSPs. MSP is also the minority student program, which allows for minority students, if any, identifying minority background to join a program which helps with students of minority backgrounds, finding jobs, networking, academic support, et cetera, you name it at the school. And that provides you another whole student community.
00:36:14
Speaker
of people in your classes as well. So they have a summer internship program. So essentially, they match you with either a firm, a corporate business, judicial internship, government, a lot. So I was matched with Cole shots, which is a firm located in Hackensack, New Jersey. So I worked there in my 1L summer and I did a variety of things. Also, you did actually at your firm in your 2L summer. And I will be going back there again for my
00:36:44
Speaker
too well summer, this summer I will be going back there. Fortunately, which and I had an amazing time there. There's also I think, a Rutgers background, there's a few Rutgers people scattered there as well. But otherwise, I did a field placement. I said the district attorney's office, I also have the US Attorney's Office in the fall. I was working there in the Criminal Division located in Newark and
00:37:06
Speaker
I was, I absolutely loved it. I think I do have a large interest in criminal law, which also was supplemented by that. And I also do want to shout out Professor Rossner. I was in his evidence class at the time and I was like, wow, I'm never going to see this in person. And then I went to the internship and we did one deposition and I heard all the terms used and I was like, wow.
00:37:26
Speaker
It's a really good teacher. So that was really great. But I think I definitely encourage, I mean, even if there's current law students listening to this, if you get an opportunity to do an internship or an externship while in law school, definitely take it or even I mean, I've never been in a clinic. I'm not sure if actually if you've been in the clinic, but any practice opportunities or things get to do in the field.
00:37:48
Speaker
absolutely take it because it not only helps you understand what you're learning in your classes, but also it helps you on your resume. It helps you to like explain like and see what you may be doing in a certain field before you actually go into it professionally after law school. And I really loved working at the U.S. Attorney's Office and I loved my mentor and my supervisors and being able to talk to like Columbia law kids and Seton Hall students and such. So those are the internships.
00:38:15
Speaker
As far as I remember, those are the only ones I have done. I always tell students to spend as much time outside of the law school as you can. And I think it's as important to figure out what you don't like as it is to figure out what you do like. And I remember my second summer after law school, I split the summer and part of it I spent at the Legal Aid Society in their juvenile rights division. I went to law school in New York.
00:38:43
Speaker
And like two weeks into it, I was like, well, this is a job I don't want to have when I graduate. That's good to know. So there's definitely value in that. Well, we're getting to the winding down part. And I think what I would love to hear from both of you. So there are lots of people right now who are choosing law schools.
00:39:03
Speaker
you know, figuring out where they got accepted and where they want to spend, you know, the three or four years of law school. And I wonder what piece of advice you would give to people as they think about where they want to be a law student, right? I mean, there are some things that are going to be the same, right? You're going to take, you know, torts and CivPro and all that good stuff, but then there are lots of things that can be different.
00:39:26
Speaker
in law school. So what would you suggest that people think about and look for as they're deciding where they want to get their law degree? So I choose Rutgers for a variety of reasons. For me personally, I like I mentioned earlier, I was born and raised in South Jersey. So I knew that I wanted to stay in the Tri-State area after graduation. And so I pretty much applied to mainly law schools in this area.
00:39:51
Speaker
And I ended up choosing Rutgers because of the alumni, you know, there's over 20,000 alumni from Rutgers. It's a huge public institution and the networking opportunities are incredible. And so that was one of the main reasons I chose Rutgers and also
00:40:10
Speaker
the culture of Rutgers and the community that we have. You know, you hear all these horror stories in movies and et cetera, where, you know, everyone in law schools mean they're going to rip pages out of your notebooks and stuff like that. But at Rutgers, everyone has really been so helpful, you know, when I was a 1L.
00:40:30
Speaker
people gave me outlines, they would sit down and talk with me, give me advice on how to be successful in my first year courses. Everyone was really willing to go the extra mile to make sure that I would be successful. And I think that's what I love most about Rutgers is the culture and sense of community. And so I think that is something really important for students to
00:40:52
Speaker
think about when choosing where they want to go to law school. I'm really grateful that I chose Rutgers. And I would not have changed a thing. I've loved my experience here over the last three years.
Reflections and Future Plans
00:41:06
Speaker
Might have changed the COVID thing. Yeah, might have changed that. Well, ignore that. Right. Other than the global pandemic, it was great. Other than that. Absolutely. What about you, Delilah? Yeah.
00:41:21
Speaker
I think, well, for me, I came to Rutgers Newark, especially because it was so close to home and it had been so long since I'd been at home. But I think also one thing to especially look for is, well, apart from Rutgers being an amazing law school with many opportunities, amazing, intelligent, just absolutely amazing faculty and professors.
00:41:42
Speaker
I'd say one thing to especially look out for is where you want to be during law school. One thing I've especially learned that I've been taking this law and inequality class, which is absolutely great, is to think about your mental health while you're in law school. And you especially want to make sure that where you're living and where you're situated is like
00:42:00
Speaker
You don't have to be here after. I mean, like someone may move to Philly or for example, Ashley could move up to New York City, which is very different from where she is now. But while you're in law school, you'll be doing a lot of work. You'll be learning a whole new language of writing and reading and analyzing. So you want to make sure you're in as comfortable of an environment as possible. So looking at your surroundings. So for example, I love Newark because I went to school here before when I was a child and I know the area. I love the area and I love being close to New York City and
00:42:28
Speaker
Hoboken and Jersey City and also the suburbs like Montclair and West Orange and just everything about the area which works for me. But for some people they may say, Oh, you know, I want to be in the college town or I want to be in a quieter area or something. So that's definitely something to look out for because you don't want to think like you're in the middle of finals in one fall and you're like, Oh man, I can't concentrate because my neighbors are too loud or I just hear.
00:42:51
Speaker
The hustle and bustle of cars driving in the street at like 11 p.m. something especially important. But otherwise, Rutgers is just an absolutely amazing school. And like Ashley, I absolutely would not change anything about my experience here so far.
00:43:04
Speaker
Well, it's been so great talking to both of you and learning about why you came here, what your experience was like, what you're like as SBA leaders. I'm just so super excited for you, Ashley, as you graduate. And Delilah, wish you well in the election to be able to work with you in whatever capacity that comes out of the election. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks so much. Thank you.
00:43:31
Speaker
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