Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
With Duncan Cuthill
82 Plays4 years ago
We can sometimes make too much of the distinction between practical ministry and spiritual ministry, emphasising one at the cost of the other. But what is it about meeting physical needs (especially in a deprived urban environment) that lends credibility to our spiritual efforts in the area of evangelism? This time on PEP Talk, Andy and Kristi hear about how both are being put into action at Edinburgh City Mission.
Our guest is the CEO of Edinburgh City Mission, Duncan Cuthill. He was converted at an Edinburgh mission event as a young person, later working for the Scottish Tourist Board and UCCF. He left Scotland in the mid-00s to study theology at Cornhill in London, subsequently working with London City Mission for twelve years. Duncan returned to Edinburgh to lead Edinburgh City Mission in 2017.
Sign up for the Edinburgh City Mission "Restless for Mission" conference here.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another packed episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Andy Bannister from the Solar Center for Public Christianity in Dundee, in Scotland. And I'm joined all the way from the other end of the country by my co-host, Christy Mayer. Christy, how are you doing today? Doing very well. Thank you very much, Andy Bannister. How are you? I am pretty good, pretty good. Nothing and another cup of coffee won't solve. Although my wife would say you've had enough already to stop.
00:00:38
Speaker
Well, she's hidden the chocolate from you as well, hasn't she? So you're not having a great day. The new diet has kicked in. So if the energy drop off as the show goes, it's the fruit that's doing it. Well,
Edinburgh City Mission Overview
00:00:49
Speaker
we have a fantastic guest lined up for you today. Well, sort of down the road from where I live in Dundee, about an hour down the road in Edinburgh. We have Duncan Cuthall from Edinburgh City Mission. Duncan, welcome to pep talk. Thank you very much.
00:01:05
Speaker
So for those folks who've never heard of Edinburgh City Mission in any shape or form, what is it exactly that the organisation does and what particularly do you do with them down there at Edinburgh? So
Mission and Church Involvement
00:01:20
Speaker
our mission statement, that's a good place to start, is that we're all about stimulating and strengthening the church's mission in Edinburgh. So what that means in practice is coming alongside churches and
00:01:35
Speaker
Praying with them, brainstorming with them, dreaming with them about possibilities of how they could reach out into their community to share their faith. And the strengthening part is actually helping them with that and being involved, rolling their sleeves up and getting involved with them in doing it as well. That sounds brilliant. Duncan, why do you think we actually need organisations that can help churches to do that?
00:02:02
Speaker
Hmm, that's a good question. I guess churches go through different stages and they're dynamic, so different things come to the surface in different churches at different times and mission can be a priority or it can begin to drift down the priority list and that can be to do with leadership, with the skill set, it can be to do various different things that can lead to that happening.
Challenges Facing Urban Churches
00:02:32
Speaker
And I guess to have an organisation that's there to constantly be provoking that discussion and saying, is there the possibility of doing something new, of picking up where we left off a few months ago or a few years ago with submission that we used to do in our community, I think is really valuable and can be helpful for churches. And we can also play a bit of a coordinating role. So we run a network of nine food banks and we do all the referrals into the food banks.
00:03:02
Speaker
So the referrals come from about 60 different referral agencies across the city and GPs and social workers and so on as well. And so the referrals come into us and then we then refer out to the food banks, which are all church based. So we were able to play a role there that it would be quite difficult for one specific local church to do. That makes sense.
00:03:28
Speaker
You know, one of the things that's fascinated me about about what you folks do is, of course, you know, you've got some some key words in the title of the organization. Edinburgh is obvious because of where you're based. But city is interesting in that I've long suspected there are probably some particular challenges.
Urban Mission Challenges in Edinburgh
00:03:46
Speaker
in reaching the inner city, you know, there are churches in different contexts all across the country. But what are some of the particular challenges in reaching into the inner city? Are there particular issues, particular challenges that Christians can face in terms of reaching out with the gospel? And if so, how does a Edinburgh City mission kind of sort of helped churches and Christians deal with some of those challenges? So, I mean,
00:04:13
Speaker
I've never done a survey of this, but just intuitively, I would say that a lot of our churches tend to be in more middle class areas. And so when you go into housing estates, there tend to be less churches and the ones that there are are often fairly small and struggling. So and in Edinburgh, 22 percent of people are below the poverty line in Edinburgh, which is actually slightly above the national average.
00:04:43
Speaker
And then the distribution of that in Edinburgh is actually in a kind of donut shape. So the housing estates, most of them are round the edges of the city. So that kind of is unusual. Most cities, even the phrase that you use, your inner city, most cities have got an area near the centre or sometimes just quite often east of the city centre. But in Edinburgh it's spread right round where housing estates were built to
00:05:11
Speaker
to move people out from the city centre, from the old town, the slums in the old town back in the 16th and 17th century. So the challenges are unique to cities. I guess there's also that instinctive aspect of human nature to be with people who are more similar to yourself in cities, to spend time with people who
00:05:42
Speaker
live or work in the poorer parts of the city often takes a bit more effort I would say for people to do because if that isn't our own background so it's difficult because you know I'm slightly wary of using categories and that type of thing but I think cities present that opportunity as well as that challenge
Engaging with Local Missions
00:06:08
Speaker
So if someone's listening to this and thinking, you know, oh gosh, I have such a heart to kind of reach these unreached communities in our cities and they really want to do something, what do you think? How could they start? How could they go about kind of exploring that? What might that look like for them?
00:06:25
Speaker
Yeah, I'm grateful for that question, because I think if anyone's listening to this, my last answer probably left him a bit confused. So thanks for finding me with a question that's a bit more practical. There are things going on. I think in Edinburgh City Mission, we want to encourage people to do things in their own local church, but also to take an interest and pray for and be supportive of what's going on in other churches across the city.
00:06:55
Speaker
And so I guess the first step is making yourself aware, what is there around you that's already happening that you could jump on board with? And there's various ways that you can do that, but organizations like Edinburgh Site Mission, we very happily point people in Edinburgh in the right direction, you know, to contact us and say, where can we help in the city? We can point them in the right direction to a church or to another organization or whoever,
00:07:24
Speaker
So I think finding out what's going on would be the first step in that, Chrissie, I would say. You know, I'm very struck, Duncan, that figure you gave of 22% below the poverty line is just an absolutely staggering figure when you sort of process it and compute, you know, because behind that statistic are families and lives and individuals who are really struggling.
00:07:50
Speaker
And I suppose that raises an interesting question, right? To go, you know, I'm sort of struck by that book of James, you know, in the New Testament. It sort of talks about the fact, you know, as Christians, we can't just wander up to people and say, oh, you're hungry. Never mind. You know, be blessed. Jesus loves you. We've actually got to get down, roll our sleeves up and get involved.
00:08:09
Speaker
with folks. So how does sort of trying to make a difference around poverty and actually helping practically with some of those issues and evangelism fit together? Are they totally
Social Action and Evangelism
00:08:20
Speaker
different? Are they the same aspects of the same thing? Because I know for a long time, you know, parts of the church have perhaps struggled to fit together, you know, social concern and evangelism and, you know, there's a whole range of issues there. But just practically in Edinburgh with what you folks are doing,
00:08:37
Speaker
Where do you where do you sort of stand on that and how does the church need to respond to some of the practical issues as well as, you know, the spiritual ones, I guess? Yeah, well, so I suppose one of the starting points for me is that is just facing up to the reality of that, that that is not acceptable. It isn't acceptable for that would be 22 percent of people below the poverty line in Edinburgh. And
00:09:04
Speaker
As Christians, we believe in a God of justice and a very simple definition of justice is setting things right. So if we start by saying that's not right, people should be able to feed and clothe themselves. That should be a given and to feed and clothe their families. And if they can't, then as Christians, we've got a job to do.
00:09:33
Speaker
We have to get involved with God to do something because if we're going to reflect God's nature back into society, as well as pointing people to crisis, we always tell them about the reason why we do it. But if we're going to reflect that back into society, then I think we have to do something.
00:09:53
Speaker
And that's such an important point that you're making there, Duncan. I was just thinking, what would you say to people who might think, oh, yeah, I see that God is a God of justice, but primarily this is for the church community, for the church family, not so much a kind of public society and elsewhere. How would you kind of persuade, what kind of things would you want to say to someone who might be thinking that as they hear about the great work that you were doing?
00:10:19
Speaker
Well, I would probably go on and on too much about theology. But, you know, in the Old Testament, so God has a special people, has Israel chosen for himself, but God's plan was always to bless the nations. And so that the outsider was always part of God's plan and their special provision made all through the Old Testament for the outsider, for the fatherless, for the widow, for the poor.
00:10:47
Speaker
for the sick. That's all through the Old Testament. And then again, we see that really evidently in Jesus' life that he made a special place for those who were poor and was poor himself. You know, Mary and Joseph in the presentment at the temple present two doves rather than a lamb and a dove because they couldn't afford a lamb.
00:11:14
Speaker
You know, so in the Old Testament, that's the directive, a lamb and a dove. But if he can't afford it, then two doves. So his parents couldn't afford that. He was a refugee. The son of man had nowhere to lay his head. You know, he's homeless. And that's the Jesus that we follow. So I think there has to be something about us coming alongside
00:11:41
Speaker
people who have got more difficulties or challenges or problems than we have ourselves that reflect something of Jesus himself and who he was and how he ministered. This is great, Duncan. You know, one of my one of my kind of missionary heroes for many years has been Leslie Newby again, well known today as she should be.
00:12:07
Speaker
And, you know, Anglican passed out there in India for many years. And, you know, he commented once, I remember, on this kind of sort of, you know, the facts that they, as a group, as a mission, were both caring for people's kind of practical needs and preaching the gospel. And he said, one reason we did that is it just made a massive, massive difference that the people who heard us in church on Sunday knew
00:12:30
Speaker
that we were the people who were healing their sick, feeling the poor, and the credibility that it gained when we then preached was something tremendous. And I do think there's almost, I almost think there's perhaps at times we miss the fact that there are aspects of the gospel that do need to be tasted. Jesus did say to Christians, be salt and light. And in one sense, of course, if people aren't seeing that you're light and aren't sort of tasting that you're salty,
00:12:56
Speaker
Is there a sense to which they're going to say, well, this Christianity thing isn't for me unless actually I can see what love looks like in action? Yeah, I mean, in Edinburgh, we've got two statues in the city centre. You might be familiar with Thomas Chalmers on George Street. And then if you walk down from his statue to Princess Street, then there's a statue of Thomas Guthrie in Princess Street Gardens. So these two statues face each other.
00:13:23
Speaker
both towering figures of the 19th century, Christians who married, the two who married, preaching the gospel and caring for the poor. And so when the church was at its zenith, if you like, in Scotland, social action was an integral part of being a Christian. That was just taken as a given almost, you know, or at least
00:13:53
Speaker
the leaders promoted that and the people followed down that route. So I think we need to recover that maybe, develop that, expand that in our own lives and practice now. Yeah,
Impact Stories from the Mission
00:14:09
Speaker
I'm in.
00:14:11
Speaker
I'm conscious as well as we come into our last five minutes. We've covered a little bit, I suppose, of theory in the last 20 minutes and talked about some of what's underpinned the motivation of what you folks do at Edinburgh City Mission. But it's also good, I think, to be very practical as well. I suppose a question I have for you, Duncan.
00:14:30
Speaker
Are there any sort of stories you've got of how you've seen God work through all this? You know, examples that you can share perhaps of how God has worked through some of the things that Edinburgh City Mission has been involved in or just a part of what you've been doing have done. What are the stories you can encourage us with of God at work in the inner city? There are. Our current newsletter features a lady who went into one of her food banks and you can
00:14:59
Speaker
see our newsletter on our website or we can, you know, if you contact us, we'll mail one to you or email one to you or whatever, but tells her story and, you know, just the impact that generosity had on her and prayer and just feeling welcomed, a particularly low point, really desperate situation in her life. I'll just share, this is an email that one of our volunteers sent me, I'll just read this quite quickly as well.
00:15:29
Speaker
She says, we continue to pray for this person, but we wonder if we're really making an impact if they haven't come to know Jesus personally. But keep doing what you're doing. I met a young lady four years ago. We walked and talked and even started a Bible study. However, after the second study, she stopped and said she didn't feel ready for it. But could we continue our friendship? I agreed and we continued to chat and walk regularly for the next four years. This is a lady who came in through a food bank.
00:15:58
Speaker
Then a couple of months ago, my friend asked, could we start the Bible study again? Obviously, because of the current restrictions, we can't meet in person, but we meet via Zoom and are using a precept study book called Having a Real Relationship with God. It is my prayer that she will indeed come to have a personal relationship with God. And that story just speaks to me something about patients that is involved in this type of work because
00:16:25
Speaker
And people coming in a food bite, they come in for food. They don't come in looking for God. And that's, you know, that's different to maybe people signing up to do courses, Christian courses that were on or that type of thing. And so to move from providing them with food, to befriending, to sharing Jesus' breath of life with people,
00:16:49
Speaker
can take in this story. That's four years before the lady actually really felt ready to engage with Jesus. So I found that really heartening story myself.
00:17:02
Speaker
What a glorious story. And I imagine being so involved in people's lives like that is because you bring the totality of yourself into these relationships that it can also be really quite draining. So just a final question from me before we finish. Duncan, what is it that keeps you motivated in this kind of work year after year? What keeps you going?
00:17:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, as a team, we have regular devotions. And so I guess you've got the mixture of your being encouraged from reading the Bible together. And God's Word stirs us to action, I think, doesn't it? And then we're carrying each other. We're sharing the concerns and the challenges that we've each got with each other.
00:17:54
Speaker
And I think we're seeing momentum. So last year we opened a new food bank. We opened a food and distribution center in Site Hill. We started a food fund that a lot of people have donated to, and we opened a new clothes bank. And we started refugee work. This year we're looking at developing a refugee work quite a bit.
00:18:21
Speaker
and we're looking at starting a new programme working with older people. So I think for me that is very motivational when as Christians we've got momentum and things are moving and happening.
Collaboration Among Christian Agencies
00:18:33
Speaker
And I would add to that as well, I think the sense of partnership is fantastic in Edinburgh. So we have a monthly prayer meeting with all the other Christian agencies in the city and so we hear what's going on with CAP and with Bethany and with Junction 42.
00:18:49
Speaker
with all these different agencies and we can help each other and pray for each other. So I think just keeping that vision alive as Christians, we've got something really great to offer and let's spur one another on to keep going for it.
00:19:10
Speaker
I feel
Closing Remarks and Future Events
00:19:11
Speaker
like we're just scratching the surface of all the incredible work that you're involved in. Thank you so much for sharing these stories and how it is that we can also be involved. I think we're going to put a link on the website to Edinburgh City Mission for some more information. I know that you have some upcoming online mission conferences too, which aren't just restricted to Edinburgh. So we'll put that information out there.
00:19:36
Speaker
But for now, just thank you very much for your time, Duncan. Thank you so much for joining us. You've been a brilliant guest.
00:19:43
Speaker
Thank you. Wow. It's been a pleasure being here. It's been great to have you, Duncan. It's been fantastic. Thank you so much. So from myself and Andy Vanister, we will look forward to perhaps being with you in two weeks' time when we will have another wonderful guest lined up who'll be sharing their life and ministry with you. Thank you so much for listening today and we look forward to joining you in a couple of weeks' time. Bye.