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A new dawn? - The European Super League's new format explained
28 Plays10 months ago
🔥 Brace yourselves! The European Super League is back with a bang and a whole new format! ⚽️ Join us this week as we dissect the changes, drama, and our share our predictions for the bold evolution of the beautiful game 👀
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Transcript
Introduction and Initial Thoughts on Super League
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Not Upon A podcast. I'm Killian Ginnity and I'm delighted to be joined as always by Connor Glennon and Nathan Byrne. But before I let the lads even speak, we are going to be covering the Super League. And if you haven't listened back to our episode from a couple of weeks ago, our five and five, which explains kind of the initial reaction to the Super League being back, I highly recommend you listen to it. But gentlemen,
00:00:15
Speaker
I'm not into podcasts.
00:00:39
Speaker
The Super League, what's your initial thoughts? Fear, foe, fandom, what are you thinking? I'm going to throw to Nate first. I mean, as a Newcastle fan, we weren't even considered in the OG version of the
Nate's Perspective on Super League
00:00:55
Speaker
Super League. So Nate, I'll let you go first on this one. As one of the great clubs that was considered him.
00:01:04
Speaker
When it originally came out, I was one of the get it out, get it gone, get it, get it gone. But I must say over the last couple of months and probably since it went away, once you start reading into things and start listening to other people's probably more like opinion stuff about it that isn't just outrage, it's like it does have benefits in my opinion and it also does have downfalls to
New Super League Format and Legal History
00:01:31
Speaker
the game.
00:01:31
Speaker
And so I think going into this episode I'll very much be on the fence and I think I'll be very much able to answer that question at the end, whether I'm for or against it. So I'm looking forward to that. I think from my end of things anyway is I would be lying if I said that the new format, which I'm sure we'll get into shortly is
00:01:56
Speaker
Definitely a better version of, I'm against the Super League from the outside, but I will say this kind of current guys of it is definitely much better than the original version with the likes of possible relegations and different stratospheres to the leagues.
00:02:19
Speaker
Well, for those that either aren't acquainted or haven't really properly kept up or just can't keep all the info in their brains, here's your little super league cheat sheet. So the initial version was going to be 20 teams going against each other in Europe. 15 of them couldn't could never be relegated and the other ones could be promoted to it or whatever, which was
00:02:42
Speaker
fine and dandy and shook the football world to its very very core and Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher spat out feathers. That's absolutely fine. Then the fans reacted and there was a big big pushback even at a protest at Chelsea. Until the point that all the clubs just dropped out that had signed up and that includes Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, even some of the big European ones but the only ones remaining at the end being
Super League vs. Champions League
00:03:12
Speaker
Juventus, Barcelona and Real Madrid with Florentino Perez being a major figure in the whole idea and him constantly kind of been pushing that idea ever since the Galactical days. So then that all went away and UEFA and FIFA both cracked down on it to the point that the Super League took a case against them in the European Court of Justice, which they won, which basically no one saw that coming.
00:03:43
Speaker
I don't think it was on on scene. I think it was on like to think most people didn't want to think that it was going to happen. But basically, the reason why they want it is because FIFA and UEFA were trying to monopolize the industry, which nobody likes that. And so.
00:04:02
Speaker
before this came out and then it was reaffirmed when the court's decision came out, there was a new format for the Super League with A22 being the company behind it. So in this proposed way of doing things, nothing signed off yet because everything is still up in the air. But what's being proposed now is both men and women's leagues.
00:04:26
Speaker
with a league structure of 64 male teams participating in three tiers, the Star League, the Gold League and the Blue League, which each tier being split. So there'd be two groups of eight in both the Star League and the Gold League, and then four groups of eight in the Blue League.
00:04:43
Speaker
So then they would go against each other and basically would end up with clubs playing home and away matches in their groups, resulting in a minimum 14 matches per year in the European stage, taking place from about September to April in the midweek.
00:05:01
Speaker
So what they're kind of doing is we're not competing with your domestic leagues, but what they are doing directly is competing with the Champions League. And this is where UEFA are having their big issue. But interestingly, lads, the 14 games that they're saying is a guarantee is more than what Real Madrid played in their Champions League run when they won it.
00:05:28
Speaker
Well that's interesting. One of the key points that they had said in their launch of their relaunch was that they wanted to put players and player health first and foremost and I don't think that necessarily kind of reads that way but going forward that the top four teams in each group for the star in the gold league would then qualify for knockouts and then it would be a quarterfinal and so on until the final.
00:05:57
Speaker
the winner of the final each tier will be crown champion of either the star league, the gold league or the blue league and then there'll be relegation and promotion between each of them.
Financial Inequality and Football's Future
00:06:07
Speaker
On the face of it, it kind of just very much sounds like the nation's league for Europe. Which no one understands.
00:06:17
Speaker
Well, I think interestingly, it also correlates with the new Champions League. The structures now, they're very similar in my opinion. The new Champions League, you play eight games in the group stage, and then I imagine it's another three or four in the knockouts. So the numbers are far off each other.
00:06:41
Speaker
But I think it's just like, it's like, choose your poison. It's like, do you put your trust in the super league or do you put your trust in the away? So I think it's either way on which one you... I think you're right with that, Nate, because you said on the top of the show, they're killing about monopoly, right? And they're trying to come at this basically going, there's a current monopoly that we want to break it, you know, bring football to the world. Well,
00:07:10
Speaker
If UEFA are out of the picture and the Super League is the new kind of dawn at the top of the table, that's just the new monopoly. So like that whole argument for me is redundant from the get-go, you know? Very true. And I think one of the things is that specifically that I've found in the last like probably couple of months to sympathize with in relation to the Premier League, Champions League, FIFA, is they're basically all the same thing. They're all money hungry.
00:07:40
Speaker
And not only did the Premier League do something similar that the Super League's doing, it's like they're all the same entity really competing for the same space. It's just the Super League's the new one, you know what I mean? So I think we've seen it before in relation to the Premier League coming in, but now we're just seeing it in the European space. So I think that's the interesting part.
00:08:01
Speaker
And it is very interesting because that is one of the kind of the people that are pro the super league are kind of saying is that this could be a way of leveling out the European playing field. That it would give the likes of teams in Italy a chance to compete with some of the Premier League ones when like you have one of Roma's better players than Oliel being linked to it was at Sheffield last year or something like that when there were relegation battles. Someone like that, yeah.
00:08:36
Speaker
This is not an equal playing field where a lower mid table or even relegation threat in the Premier League team can financially compete with AC Milan or Atletico Madrid or any of these kind of massive historically reverent teams. So it may be seen as a way of leveling things out.
00:08:58
Speaker
That was a Roma team that was being led by Jose Mourinho.
00:09:04
Speaker
But there hasn't been a buy-in from teams yet. Yeah, I think one of the interesting things that you said there is leveling the playing field out. Now, this is more of a question to you too. Do you see football, would you like to see football transition to the point where the playing field was leveled out or do you like how it is where there's, you know,
00:09:27
Speaker
You've got your financial powerhouses, stuff like that. When you say leveling it, do you mean that could be talking like salary cap situation? Yeah. If that's the way they do it or pumping more money into the league, one or the other, I just think like it's, I think I probably have a different opinion to say Killian would on leveling out the playing field. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I think like Killian, actually you take this one away. I think you were unique one on this one.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah, I'd be very much for leveling the playing field. One, because I think for the everyday person football has now become a celebrity supermodel kind of interest.
MLS Model and Globalization in Football
00:10:09
Speaker
It's more keeping up with the Kardashians than it is jumpers for goalposts nowadays that kids are kind of growing up wanting to be.
00:10:17
Speaker
Jesse Lingard with his brand rather than Michael Kark ticking over in the middle of midfield. I think we should only look at where football is not only doing well but one could argue growing and that's Germany with their 50 plus one rule.
00:10:35
Speaker
yeah you have the powerhouse of Bayern which should be kind of leveled out but if you look across the league you're having like really really high attendances you're having a really strong level from all the teams and then you're having fallen giants like Hamburg and Frankfurt and all these teams that we would grow up remembering falling down a division or two because
00:11:03
Speaker
This can happen in real football because it's about the competitiveness, not about the financial power. And yes, as I said, Byron is the outlier in that, but
00:11:14
Speaker
they still have lost out to the likes of Dortmund, or you see Leipzig pushing for it, which Leipzig, yeah, they're kind of skirting around the rules, but they're doing it in the right way. They're not doing a Chelsea of spending hundreds and hundreds of millions to move backwards. Like, I think football is at its heart
00:11:38
Speaker
was meant to be the poor person's game. It was one that, like Ronaldinho on the streets of Brazil, like Ronaldinho on the streets of Brazil putting balls of socks together or plastic bags and being able to kick that around. That's what football is about. It's meant to be the great equalizer. We all kind of laughed or didn't like when Oscar went to China, but he went and admitted that he did it so that
00:12:05
Speaker
his family and his family's family and his cousins and all of his neighbors could be brought out of poverty. That is now becoming harder and harder to achieve when it's more about the brand than it is the skill. But is the beauty of football say when you go to a Ronaldina or whatever, is it him going to say same playing in Brazil or is it him going to
00:12:31
Speaker
say AC Milan, Barcelona, and playing with these great players that are around them, you know what I mean? I think one thing that I'm probably critical about saying, not to take it off topic, but the MLS and their franchise model is, I do think it strips back a lot of things in football that create a good story, you know
Super League's Impact on Domestic Leagues and Fans
00:12:52
Speaker
what I mean? Yeah, there's no rivalries out there like, you know, geographically, there's also the draft system is, or they have a version of it that's also
00:13:02
Speaker
Not the ideal way to do it, but on that point of, you know, is it in AC Milan or is it Brazil? Like I'm all up for the globalization of football, right? And I think that's a separate issue in part to what we're talking about here. Like I think the game can still be for the working class and, you know, as opposed for the elite, but touch every corner of the globe. But where I think the super league will shift the whole
00:13:31
Speaker
kind of paradigm of globalization is, you know, Arsenal playing in London, having fans in Singapore, that's their goal. Perfect, love to see it. Where it becomes an issue is,
00:13:45
Speaker
is with this Super League, say, Arsenault are playing Paris Saint-Germain in, I don't know, LA on a Wednesday. And then they're coming back to play Brighton on a Saturday. So there's player welfare issues straight off the bat there. There's, you know, living in London, not being able to see your team is, that are from London is mental. And then I think the third point of that is,
00:14:13
Speaker
All that's going to happen there is due to the travel and due to the, let's face it, they're going to prioritize the super league over the premier league. And then it's going to come to two teams. So there'll be an A and a B team. And then the B team is just going to be made up of extra players from let's call them worst teams. And when I say that, I mean, for example, Brighton, an unbelievable team, but the best players in Brighton are going to be tapped by United to play for their B team. So it's just going to destroy domestic leaves for me.
00:14:45
Speaker
I agree, and I think one of the things that we will see is that's only going to drive more money being spent in the game. So I think it's a cash 22 that when you do go and globalize it.
00:14:59
Speaker
more money will pour into the game, but it's just, where does that go? And from the, the, the sounds of it's only going to go to 64 teams in the world. You know what I mean? And so, and, and that, that's, I don't know if you guys kind of dug into the, like everyone's kind of, I suppose, looking at the, first of all, the names for the three leagues are absolutely dire, but absolutely completely dribble. But the one that intrigued me the most was the third division. So it's made up of, I think it was like,
00:15:28
Speaker
what was it, like 30 teams or something, but each season 20 of them swap out. So it's depending on their performance in their own domestic leagues. So it's like, to me, that is interesting in one regard that that'll probably be the most interesting league because, you know, it's taking in current performance. Then at the same time, if you're, I don't know why I keep saying Brighton, it's where I support them. But like, if you're Brighton and you go next year, we're in
00:15:53
Speaker
the super league, we don't know the year after that or the year after that, how do they plan financially? How do they leverage sponsors? How do they get the money and just to keep the club running at the level it is without certainty for stakeholder sponsors, you name it. So it's kind of like, to me, the current version of the super league, I'll be a better than their original version because they got pushed into a corner. Let's face it, they don't want this version, but
00:16:18
Speaker
It's better in its makeup, but it still seems like a league that was written out in a napkin in the corner of a pub at a Christmas party, you know?
00:16:29
Speaker
like one of the things that I don't like about it and again this may be the old-school romantic in me is that it is going to commodify these Champions League nights and these kind of oftentimes David versus Goliath where you have the
00:16:48
Speaker
Not necessarily even a small team versus a big team, but the novelty of getting to maybe see a game between Ajax and Barcelona, the Johan Cruyff derby, for the first time in 10 years. That's just not going to be a thing when you have 14 European games. You're going to see that one twice, you're going to see that one twice, sure.
00:17:09
Speaker
United Valencia twice this year. I'm sure that could be the same again next year. Oh, it'll be Barcelona and Real Madrid. Oh, that's interesting. Sure. They're going to have six of them a year. Like it's just going to end up watering down the product of football.
00:17:25
Speaker
I agree and also lads as much as I love my club you're not catching me flying to LA to watch them play out. This is what I mean like you're the biggest fan of like you know out of the three of us lochies we all love our clubs dearly but I don't know anyone who loves their club more than you and like I just think it's regardless of whether you are a multi-billionaire and can fly their
00:17:48
Speaker
on a private jet every weekend if you're every Wednesday if you want to do it it just it seems wrong it just seems morally wrong to the and like it isn't even from a football purist point of view I just have to go back to that kind of okay if you're Irish now you're playing PSG and it's the Champions League and there's gonna be one game in London one in Paris you're like oh grand but if your game could be in I don't know
00:18:12
Speaker
LA and then your next one's in Guadalajara. You're like, what are we doing here? You know, I mean, it's like it's and then even if you're in those countries, like say if you're in LA, you're not going to become an Arsenal fan because you'll probably see one game that Arsenal play in LA for that year. So it just becomes like baseball. And I think that's that's touching on a great is like it the more I think about it does seem like the middle ground to franchise in a way. And I just like we see the NFL
00:18:41
Speaker
We'll probably see the NBA in the near future go to these European cities now. And it does seem like they're trying to clutch on the extra fans around the world where football is such a global sport. Anyway, does it even need to reach out to new fans currently? I don't know. Well, it's the biggest thing in the world, you know?
00:19:07
Speaker
But one reason why I'm glad this version of Super League is coming out is because I think this is going to give both the Champions League and the Premier League a shot in the arm because they are at risk of losing generations of fans because they're making it so inaccessible to watch.
00:19:25
Speaker
It's not like the 90s where you could go on the Channel 4 and watch Serie A highlights, albeit, but at least you could see it and you could get to hear about the fantastic players. The Premier League is now what? 900 euro or grand a year if you want to watch every one of the games. I've watched three different streaming platforms now. Because we always pay for streaming services. I just would like to get there. We absolutely never watch anything anywhere else.
00:19:55
Speaker
Well, no, I think it's not an option.
UEFA's Response to Super League
00:19:57
Speaker
I think you hit like right in my head, like the amount of families like not only around Ireland, but also like the UK and a lot of other countries that just simply can't afford to keep up with football. And I don't think that should ever be be an issue for people to follow their team. Now, that's an interesting fact that you just popped into my head because that does make the Super League come across as a lot more of a
00:20:23
Speaker
and interesting prospectors. Because they're offering free to view games. It's like, I didn't know that on what though, who are platform.
00:20:35
Speaker
They haven't revealed that yet. I'm sure they'll make their own platform for it. I think that was either the assumption that it was going to be their own one or they'd go in on a deal with either, you could imagine like an Apple or a Dazon or something like that. Or YouTube or something like that. Yeah, great show.
00:20:56
Speaker
I don't think that's its own separate issue that we could probably get into in another podcast. This is how inaccessible football is. That's an absolute banger. Yeah, we have to dig into that. People need to be watching their teams because not only is it a day to day for people, it's part of their lives. But yeah, I do think the Super League
00:21:22
Speaker
They need to come out with a big presentation again. That isn't like we're, we're like stopping football. Like they did the first time where the world went into meltdown. But I don't think they can recover from that. I think they could literally come out. I think they could come out with the absolute like perfect league that fans would agree with, but because of what happened the first time, nobody will trust them. See, I disagree personally because I think UEFA have thrown it back in their court with the new champions league. I think UEFA have gone.
00:21:51
Speaker
Oh, we don't want to do the Super League, or we don't like the Super League because they don't have the players' intentions, blah, blah, blah. And then they come out with their own version of it. It's like, lads.
00:22:02
Speaker
If you're going to act like you're all sincere and stuff, at least put the act on for a couple of years, you know what I mean? Not just two. So I do think the ball is back in the super leagues because there's not that uproar anymore. But yeah, I'll never forget that time where it was like three days, the world just shut down. Gary Neville lost his mind. Oh my God, the passion of Gary Neville talks in Sky Sports.
00:22:28
Speaker
Oh mate, that's definitely one of the wildest times I think ever. Is that three days for a football fan? I've got a question that has been kind of on my mind since we were chatting about doing this as the episode. What would you think if the Super League was like a World Cup type situation where it only happened every couple of years? Because then I think it's viable. You mean the Club World Cup?
00:22:55
Speaker
that kind of situation.
Saudi Arabia's Influence and Political Implications
00:22:57
Speaker
If we say this Super League happened every, I don't know, two years, three years, so it's not going to impact every year and destroy the game we know. Logistically, obviously, it would cause problems, and you'd have to probably do a winter break and all of that. But I think if it wasn't an annual thing, it's more palatable. See, that sounds interesting, because I'm going to be honest, and I might get called out for this, and fair enough if I do. Well, the Club World Club is the most
00:23:24
Speaker
pointless competition on the planet. I didn't even know it was going on during the week. I genuinely did not even know that that tournament was like I was like then we're maybe playing ball where they go into that that area but like
00:23:41
Speaker
Call me out with these weren't lads, but like, say this, I totally agree with you man, it's a vanity trophy for most teams, but I think if you took out all those like
00:23:57
Speaker
bullshit pre-season tournaments like the Audi cup and all these kind of things and Brought the Super League in in a that kind of a way I think there's room for it all the clubs want here is to make money and Pay the like ideally if your parents you want to play the least amount of games and maximize the amount of money and
00:24:15
Speaker
If this thing was every couple of years, it's more interesting because it's less often and they could make their money and go into the sun. I do think a league like the Super League needs the prime time slot, you know what I mean? What are you saying, Killian? To generate the money. I think it's a moot point because you don't come back from calling both UEFA and FIFA a cartel.
00:24:41
Speaker
despite the fact that the European Court of Justice has agreed with them, and I think that's going to leave a lot of questions in people's minds. But this isn't going to be like a live golf, where they're going to end up coming together. I think this is just going to... Oh, that's never going to happen. What if the Saudis get involved in the super league? Does that add any more like Pauline Parra to it?
00:25:02
Speaker
But this is the really, really interesting thing. So it was on Sky Sports that one of their journalists was in Jeddah when the ruling came true and he was asking at the time and what he heard was, no, we're more interested in making our league.
00:25:20
Speaker
better, which if you look at the Jordan Henderson thing happening now, that would kind of put a question mark on your head. But then the Sky Sports Journal has had a very, very, very interesting point, which was, where's the World Cup going to be? Who would not want to risk the political power they now have over FIFA? That's a very good point. I didn't even think of that. No, I didn't either. But what's worth more? The World Cup or possibly owning it?
00:25:51
Speaker
prime competition in the sport. I know live golf and that's a totally different subject, but the amount of leverage they've gained in that sport by even getting it. They own golf now. Well, yeah. It's like the compromise of World Cup just to get that much leverage in the sport. Look what's on the table for society. It's either a risk of this super league maybe happening, but you have to put your cards on the table before you have a result.
00:26:21
Speaker
or a tournament that has a hundred years of history and sponsorship deals signed decades in advance. And remember that MBS's whole tenure as Prince or whatever is, it was hinged on this 2030 bid. So if that politically or optically within the kingdom, if his 2030 plan fell and they didn't get the super league, I can't imagine there'd be much friendly people knocking around this palace.
00:26:50
Speaker
See lads, I think if the series got involved with the super league, you're 100% going through. I think it does, but I think if they really wanted it, they'd lose the world cup, they'd have to gamble everything. They would probably get it because of the amount of money available to them. But I think the thing that for me is even if they did it, say they pulled it off and as of in four years time, the super league's going to start. I don't think that thing lasts more than 10 years.
00:27:18
Speaker
Why would they lose the World Cup? Can FIFA even do that one time? With this ruling, probably not. With FIFA and UEFA being so in bed together, you'd imagine...
00:27:35
Speaker
This is one of the reasons why the case was brought up was because both FIFA and UEFA threatened to expel any teams or players that were seen to be involved with the Super League. But there's another thing that needs to be considered in all of this.
00:27:52
Speaker
which is that the UK courts and the UK government are pushing through legislation that's possibly going to come enacted by the end of next year that would make it illegal for UK teams to join the likes of a Super League. Surely that can't happen with the back of that.
00:28:13
Speaker
basically what the UK are trying to do is they're trying to lock the clubs into the domestic league so it's more fighting against the original version of the super league than it is anything else but it's a very very strong statement of intent that you do this and you will have no supports ever from the government and how many teams signed up for the furlough scheme i don't think they're gonna want to
00:28:42
Speaker
take a risk. I mean,
Club Decisions and Government Legislation
00:28:43
Speaker
we're not a politics podcast. So I don't want to go too deep into this, but there are
00:28:48
Speaker
fairly direct ties between the kingdom and the uk you know i mean so i don't see them i don't see them riding that line too hard i think it's more optics than anything yeah like if you look at it in that kind of way but i think that perfectly works together where society won't ever touch it but that's not to say a separate oil nation doesn't maybe like a katar or a baron oh i don't think it's
00:29:14
Speaker
But guitar couldn't buy United, so they're not doing a supernoid. But the head of UEFA clubs is like a huge figure in guitar, so they're already in bad with UEFA, that's to say. They've got their pranks on it, yeah. Yes.
00:29:29
Speaker
In fairness, the previous head of UEFA was also a very big figure and he ended up leaving for the Super League. So Agnelli from Juventus still never say never. From a primary point of view, who's have the top six all said no at this point or? I mean, they have either explicitly said no or their actions have said no.
00:29:53
Speaker
But I wouldn't trust them as far as I could travel them. That's what I'm getting with this. They only followed it the first time due to fan pressure and that's it. I think one of the things that stands out to me is remember when I think it was a Chelsea game and they couldn't even get the bus through because it was that many fans. Oh, and check it to get off the bus. I think all of it at that moment. The only reason they even paused it was due to fans.
00:30:17
Speaker
Yeah, I don't trust as far as the throw. Like I think the Glazers would be in it in two seconds. They'd be in it in two seconds. And I think, you know, any of these clubs that I know I've seen some statements, I'm not too sure exactly who out of the top six, but like, you cannot tell me that there hasn't been some white paper across the desk of every CFO in the Premier League, you know,
00:30:42
Speaker
Liverpool and United were two of the front runners in thinking up the Super League. The Glazers and the FSC were the ones at the forefront. This is public knowledge.
00:30:56
Speaker
As much as they say, oh, we're not going near it, it's like you drafted up the first time. Yeah, you were pretty in the deep end on it in the early days. Yeah. Well, this is their idea. There's nothing to consider, though, is the Glazers aren't in football control anymore. So they may not be up to them. Yeah, they're trying to sell Liverpool. So they're not going to risk the share price of selling Liverpool. Let's go back to United in the second there, Nate.
00:31:25
Speaker
I don't think Citi might, if UEFA try to push the 115 charges, they might flirt with us. Todd Bowley, I think, could go because he just seems... I think he's nearly half-banking on that to, again, get around FFP. I think Arsenal maybe wouldn't. I don't think Daniel Evey would either.
00:31:49
Speaker
if the other ones were a little bit more willing, you might see the likes of a Liverpool United come forward.
Super League's Effect on Players and Sponsorships
00:31:57
Speaker
But I think Jim Radcliffe, he's been going so far in on the I'm a United fan, it's United for United reasons. I don't think he
00:32:07
Speaker
would have gone into the stakes that he has if that was even a possibility. Would his football control, like this is the thing I'm curious on with Nate, like, and you might know this too Killian, is that a business control situation or a football control situation? Because if it's business that's the Glazers making that pick.
00:32:30
Speaker
James spent all this money, but that decision isn't his. Like he picks the manager, but he doesn't pick where they go. I think. But I think you're wrong. And I think you're raising the pointer, you know.
00:32:44
Speaker
But it's football operations. I think it's business operations. This is a business call. Yeah. This is not a football call. This is a business call. 100%. And also, I do think if you saw Uniting and Liverpool committed a Super League, you'd also get others jumping at it and trying not to get left behind.
00:33:03
Speaker
100%, it takes, it doesn't, they need more than one. Like if Citi were like, oh, like that was a very good point, Killian on the charges, they may flirt with it to try and get rid of them. I didn't even think of that. That's absolute shit house read. It's finest, but it's safe city did it on their own. People just go, well, they were like PSG anyway. Yeah. You know, I think it would take
00:33:25
Speaker
uh more colder what's the word for the more kind of ingrained club in the UK like if a Liverpool did it that have such history with the European Cup like Man United, Busby Babe's connection to that like they are the European Cup if one of them did it I think a lot of people would start falling in line.
00:33:44
Speaker
I mean, you might call me biased, but I genuinely think there's only two clubs that could get other clubs to jump out of United and Liverpool. I agree. And to go back to what I don't think... I think City would turn people off. I think they'd be happy to see the back of City. I think they'd want to stay more with the Premier League. Like I genuinely do.
00:34:05
Speaker
But go back on what FSE, I think then moving to a super league increases their share value. They're more global straight off the bat. Even though they're Liverpool Football Club, which are a massive global brand, not even to put percentages on it, but you're going up 2x. And they're also guaranteed a certain amount of revenue per year. So that all adds to the share value.
00:34:29
Speaker
But the players making the deals to go with Liverpool aren't guaranteed to play for their national teams, which instantly makes their imaging rights much lessened. So is there going to be the same value of a club if you can't have Mo Salah? Because Salah doesn't want to be taken away from the World Cup. Think of it this way, though. Think of it this way.
00:34:54
Speaker
say FIFA pull that line and say, OK, Liverpool are now in the Super League, Mo Salah can't go to the World Cup or insert Killian Mbappe, then World Cup sponsorship is going to dramatically decrease. So it's going to get to a point akin to a live golf situation where, oh, you're not allowed to be in the Ryder Cup team. And then after about 18 months, I will let you back in because we need you, because we need the sponsorship money.
00:35:24
Speaker
I don't even think it's an 18-month thing. I generally think it's an empty track. These contracts are already signed with the clubs, number one. I think if the clubs move, other clubs will jump, which will just create a tide effect that you see more and more leaving. And then the World Cup are stuck. Do we want Ryan Fraser lining up? This is what I mean, Chris waterfront. Then your World Cup is pointless. Yeah. And that's where I think the power is. I genuinely don't think
00:35:55
Speaker
FIFA and UEFA have as much power as we think they do. I genuinely don't. And I think we could actually see the Super League go through in a matter of days if clubs did pivot towards that. Well, like I said, the thing is, right, say if you're Liverpool and you take that stab, like we're saying, I do think people fall in behind you, but unless they fall in automatically,
00:36:21
Speaker
Like, I mean, when you announce as Liverpool we're in and then 30 seconds later, four clubs are with you.
Scenarios for Super League Success
00:36:27
Speaker
If you're waiting a couple of days, owners are like, there'd be anarchy. Like you, you know, you'd have to really almost have to do a bear hug on, on the situation. This, this is how I imagine it happening is say, you know, they have a chat behind the scenes. They go, all right, we're going to super league. We're going to do this. Okay. They go one day.
00:36:49
Speaker
Then you've got Todd, he's like, I'm in for the ride. I'm jumping as well. He goes. And then you've got Arsenal Spurs and City. They're holding hands and they're like, what do we do? Do we, like, do you know what I mean? Do we go all the other big powerhouses or do we stay with the other teams? And I think the only team that I could see saying would be City. I think Spurs would be gone in a heartbeat, more money. And then Arsenal, I really don't think I'm staying.
00:37:17
Speaker
I'm interested in hearing your point, Gillian. I think regardless of whether you believe them or not, I think we have to take the clubs at face value as it stands, that they're not going anywhere. For the Super League, we should be now looking at what space is left for them, which I think is one of two options, which
00:37:40
Speaker
the football manager purest enemy it would be so much fun because it would be making new teams or going for smaller teams like if they can't get city today try and go right we just need a London team so do we have a London FC or do we just say to Crystal Palace hey but who plays for them work
00:38:00
Speaker
Well, see, this is the thing I was going to say is do they do centralized contracts and go, listen, Messi, we're going to give you a hundred million per year. You go where we tell you and do it in doing an MLS kind of thing where the league buys you not the club. And, or do they, as I say, create new teams where they end up having, uh, football, Munich and, uh, Barcelona, because Barcelona want to want to still be there and Real Madrid still want to be there.
00:38:29
Speaker
if they can't get a Milan, but then do they make a Milan? Do they make a Milan? Do they go pro-evil and just circumvent? I do think if they went that way, it'd have to be Saudi back. You're completely right with that, because that goes back to like, do you remember the Saudi league where like paying third division players like 10 grand a month to come over? The only thing is with that is like,
00:38:57
Speaker
Uh, if this league has any chance of longevity, it can't be 34 year old messies. And like, don't get me wrong. He's the greatest player ever. Grace of, you know, a pitch, but like you need the 22, 23, 24 best people in the world. You need the Jew Bellingham's, the Mbappe's, the Vinicius's, you know, you like, without that it's, it's redundant to me, you know?
00:39:23
Speaker
But yes, I've forgotten one point that I'm trying to hint at, which is it doesn't have to be Saudi. It just needs to be a rich government backed entity that wants... America won't have the cash to do it. China politically can't do it. Russia can't do it. Any of the stands can't... I mean...
00:39:51
Speaker
Okay, they could. I mean, I don't think it would be. I'm about to bring in influence into the West because they're part of BRICS along with Saudi. And if Saudi can do deals at the West while still being able to somewhat align themselves with Russia, well, then China are going to try and do the same because don't forget they don't leave though.
00:40:14
Speaker
With the Chinese League falling apart, do you think they really want to gamble again? I think that's why they do. Because this is a much softer power. I don't know man, they really embarrassed themselves with that Chinese League.
00:40:29
Speaker
What does China get out of it, though?
Saudi League's Role in Global Football
00:40:31
Speaker
That's what I'm trying to think as well. I'm trying to get my head around it. I can understand the Chinese league because it's inwards and the population will be engaging with it and all that. That's promoting China to the world, yeah. Yeah. What do they get for an outwards league? I think there would be a lot more in line with the Saudis. Well, instead of having that, instead of having United and Arsenal in Miami, you will then have it in Beijing.
00:40:55
Speaker
I just don't see that one. I don't think it has to be China, but I think we're getting bogged down in the details of Saudi. Saudi isn't the only government that wants Western influence. Yes, there's lots of countries that have bajillions in offshore accounts, but
00:41:20
Speaker
but this what I mean like maybe it's just a good PR job that Saudi have been doing but it seems like Saudi having showcased how
00:41:30
Speaker
much of kind of, I suppose, assassins, they can be, pardon the pun, wrong term, with Khashoggi, apologies. Savvy businessmen, should I say, off the back of the live thing, they're the only ones that I think anyone, if Saudi come in and want to take over a sport, they've basically taken over boxing, they've taken over golf, they're looking at tennis, you know, I just... I think they've shown their cards when it comes to football. What do you think, Nick? I disagree.
00:41:59
Speaker
think the reason why we are right even to get bogged down on Saudi Arabia is because they've shown us the blueprint. They they're the ones that mastermind it is in other sports. And I think, and let's be real, they've gone after have fun as well. They've gone after other sports. But I do in my head, I apparently thinks that to take direction from the Saudi League, which we can talk about how that's going and whatever, is
00:42:27
Speaker
I think that's them showing their cards a bit. Is this the way that they're kicking it off, slowly but surely? I think you've made a really good point in the fact of bringing up F1, because I think what they did in F1 is exactly what they're going to continue to do with football, which is cozy up. What did they do in F1?
00:42:47
Speaker
But not only that, but they also tried to buy the sport. They made a bid that was massively overpriced. And they didn't get it, no? No, they didn't get it. They turned it down because I don't know whether it was political or they just didn't want to sell it because it has, in my opinion, F1 has more market reach to still go. But I think they've shown a blueprint that
00:43:17
Speaker
with the Saudi league and how it's going is, is this their way pivoting into soccer or into football now and going towards like, let's buy these players. And we already have someone side that will go to the super league. You know what I mean? Yeah. But then like, does their, does their credits, does their, do they have the credit in the bank off the back of like Benzema looking to leave on loan. Hendo is already got his contract terminated to get out of there. Like are the Jenga pieces falling?
00:43:47
Speaker
Well, do we want to have a quick chat about Saudi and see, can we link it up with where we are now? Because I personally think that in my head, I don't understand how the Saudi could ever become a thing. And that's why I'm suspicious about the actual motive of the, you think it's a backdoor into this.
00:44:08
Speaker
I personally do the more I think about it. The more you're saying it, I'm kind of seeing the jigsaw pieces coming together on it. I'm happy to prove them wrong. In my head, I don't understand how the Saturday will work and I don't understand how they thought it ever would work. If they're doing what you're saying they're doing, that's absolute 4D chess. What do you think, Gideon, in regards to Saturday?
00:44:32
Speaker
I never credit malice where incompetency is involved. Like just looking here at the Saudi vision of 2030, the motto of it is Saudi Arabia, the heart of the Arab and Islamic worlds, the investment powerhouse and the hub connecting tree continents. I don't think the super league fits into that. I think they
00:44:57
Speaker
they're going to power ahead with their own league. I think they're going to encourage more buying of clubs like they did with Newcastle. I think they're too deep into the well of FIFA and UEFA to try and screw things up now. Not forgetting the political influence both of those hold in their respective arenas like
00:45:26
Speaker
Sep Blatter did a whole lot of damage and I think for Saudi, for MBS, if they could be part of the image of cleaning FIFA, that is a much safer gamble. And I think the only reason why live golf happened was they knew
00:45:46
Speaker
the PGA wouldn't deal with them. The reason why they changed tact from trying to buy F1 into buying soft power in them was because they knew they weren't gonna get the deal. I think if they were to go into the super league it's gonna port
00:46:03
Speaker
everything
Super League's Long-term Influence and Comparison to MLS
00:46:04
Speaker
else at risk that they've done with football and they would end up further back than they were before they ever made the plan. One thing we're forgetting to mention here as well, boys, is isn't there a possibility of Saudi teams getting Champions League wildcards? Wasn't that on the table? Because that goes away. And that's a safer bet for them. Way less effort, way less financial commitment.
00:46:30
Speaker
They won't care if that goes away because the Champions League won't be a thing. Yeah. It's just, you know, in terms of like, it's the safest bet. From what I've done and the reason I've done and it goes back to what you were saying, Killian, is Saudi really want Saudi Arabia to become a hub. Yeah. From what though? A hub of technology. Basically what the buy is now. Right.
00:46:53
Speaker
And that's what I've read. I think they want to go further. I think they want it to be like London. I think they want people to think if you want to make it, you go to Saudi. Yeah. But is that not the best way to entice people is to connect it with the biggest sport in the planet is you not only run the league, but it's like a gateway into Saudi. You know what I mean?
00:47:18
Speaker
Oh, we will have Manchester United versus Arsenal in Saudi Arabia. Do you wait then? Play the long game here. Let all the bad press around A22's version of the Super League fall away. Have the 2030 World Cup and post 2030 World Cup, if it's been a good one, that people are like, holy God, that was a great tournament. Then do you make a push for the Super League? Because then you've nothing to lose.
00:47:44
Speaker
Possibly. I just don't think the Super League will be around that long. Or do you just wait for the Super League to fall apart? That's what I'm saying, wait for it to fall apart and make a new one post 2030.
00:47:57
Speaker
Or did they just wait for it to fall apart? And do they move on and take ownership of UEFA? Do they just get the soft power and basically take control of UEFA? They've practically done it anyway. Was the Spanish superculp not held in society? Yeah, it was. It was the Madrid Derby, wasn't it? Yeah.
00:48:19
Speaker
Yeah, I'd let it go, aren't involved in the Super League. So they have La Liga onside. So why would they risk that when they could have that every year? Or maybe not every year, but they've built and spend all this time and money building up these relationships. I think they've been too clever to this point to throw it away on Florentino Perez's fucking fever dream. What age is he now, by the way? Like, how long is he going to be around? No joke.
00:48:48
Speaker
Hey, is there someone I trust to get a league off the ground that would be Perez? I think he's a very smart man. I genuinely do. But do we want to quickly touch on the Saudi league? Because I'd love someone to explain to me what the plan for it is. And I know we're seeing it unravel now. But to go back to what Kitty earlier said is, I don't know if in my head I can see the Saudis be so complacent.
00:49:18
Speaker
Yeah. I think this Saudi league is actually following the MLS blueprint because the MLS, when it was brought back in the late 90s was a shit show, like other than who Carlos of Laturama.
00:49:36
Speaker
The Columbia knew the big hair, who did they really have? Joe Cannon, the goalkeeper. And they did the penalties from the halfway line or whatever, yeah. Yeah, like it was a bit of a joke. But then the mid 2000s came and there was the rebrand.
00:49:54
Speaker
And you had teams come in and out and fall out with the last one properly being Shiva's USA, which was an extension of Shiva's Guadalajara. And then they went and brought Beckham in, made the Beckham rule.
00:50:09
Speaker
got the benefit of getting these older players in. Kofkof, Firmino, Kofkof, Ronaldo. And then they said, right, we're going to invest in infrastructure, invest in fan experiences. Kofkof, Saudi Arabia, Saudi Vision 2030 with their new visas. Then they did an investment in a Adidas development program where the likes of Josie Altidore came true, who
00:50:38
Speaker
maybe a joke on wear side, but has 130 caps for America. Yeah, he's up there anyway. Jesus. Yeah, he had a very, very, very good career. And again, like I once did, he was the most expensive American player of all time when he went from New York, New York Metro stars. So just before Red Bull to Villa Real.
00:51:04
Speaker
and then he kind of bounced around and was briefly alone at Hull. But the MLS went in this same kind of a model where you're going to see the likes of clubs like El Atifak make mistakes, possibly even fall away, but they have the money so it doesn't really matter. I think
00:51:25
Speaker
They're going to like you the mls has done now is the mls is moved away from technically franchises they're very much going for locales rather than.
00:51:36
Speaker
get this team and move them around to try and build up these community things. I think it'll take Saudi a few years, but they will make their bases.
Future Prospects of Super League and UEFA's Role
00:51:44
Speaker
Like I'm just having a look at their, I think that would like in the MLS vein though, like we'd say New York cosmos team fell away, but the players still remained in the league. But I think where this is different is you can never in the MLS. Oh, sorry. They were second vision. Yeah.
00:52:00
Speaker
During the NAASL back in the 70s, and then they were brought back in the under division, which isn't owned by the MSL. But even with that, say the team can fall away, and you can lose a Henderson, and I think optically it's short term, not great for them, but if guys like Benzema fall away, Ronaldo fall away, then they're in trouble. I think they're strong. This version of Sadity is common territory is.
00:52:24
Speaker
like they're not going to have any of these players in two or three years. So who are they going to be? I don't think that's going to be a problem. I don't think that's going to be a problem. New York Red Bulls survived after on Relift. LA Galaxy continue to exist without Beckham. But that doesn't scream Saudi Arabia to me. It's like they don't, in my opinion, the last thing they'd want is a league like America where it's
00:52:48
Speaker
these clubs that have mediocre players. Yeah, they want big stars. It's like, they want all the eyes on them. They want to see what they're doing. Like, no one cares in five years if we're watching, I don't know, Chris Ward playing for Al Nasser, you know? I don't see them playing after three years. They see MLS as a blueprint. I think because they're trying to do something that's never been done, I think you look at kind of the most recent breakout league
00:53:18
Speaker
the MLS and kind of go, OK, well, we saw what they did. I should have called the MLS a breakout league. I really do. And and that's that might be short for me. But like, I just don't see like if that said Arabia's blueprint, it's like, Jesus, they've got it horribly wrong. Going back, though, going back to a 22, right? Say Saudi just have nothing to do with this Super League.
00:53:45
Speaker
Do we think the current a 22 can even get off the ground in the next five years. Yes no i don't know i'm so sitting on the fence in this because i came into this absolutely against it and now you've got boozled me around to this way of possibility where i put.
00:54:06
Speaker
I think if it was really gun to head and you, you know, bullet goes off of your lie, I think probably no, but. Two clubs changed us all. It does. That's the thing. I, as I said, at the start of the show, and we're probably approaching the end is I've come to the conclusion, probably throughout the show is that, um, I do think it's on a knife edge that if two clubs go, it happens. Um,
00:54:35
Speaker
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that in the next year or so. Just because I'm not surprised that we saw it in the first place. I do think it could happen. I genuinely think it's a real possibility. I don't know what your thoughts are, guys. I think that if Juventus, Barcelona, Real Madrid aren't enough to make you jump, you're not going to jump. I think it's going to fizzle out, but what it's going to do along the way, it's going to
00:55:02
Speaker
break the leg of football just enough to make either the fans or the organizers of football reconsider some of the things that they're doing to try and stop a Super League happening again, but by addressing some of the issues like what we said with the accessibility and the spreading out of wealth, I think it's going to be ultimately a good thing that this has happened, but the Super League will be its own victim.
00:55:31
Speaker
Ideally, firstly, just on that vein, yeah, I think Nate's right. I think if Liverpool and United decide to play ball, it's game on. I still don't know if it happens, but kind of what I am taking out of all of this conversation, and I'd imagine you guys would agree with me in some respect in this. I do hope this shakes UEFA to its core to change the game for the better. In whatever format they go for going forward with this extended Champions League or whatever way they do it,
00:56:01
Speaker
There's got to be a better way of doing it, you know? So will the Super League be better for fans or will it be a new global takeover or will it be just a faint memory in a few years time?
00:56:18
Speaker
Let us know what you think. We'll be eagerly keeping an eye on this over the next few weeks, months, who knows, maybe even years. I've been Killeen Gennady. This has been The Knot Upon The Podcast. I'm delighted to have been joined by Conor Glennon and Nathan Byrne. Thank you very much, lads. Thank you. Thank you. And we'll chat to you next week for a very special episode. Stay tuned. Bye bye.
00:56:53
Speaker
Back of the net.