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Ding-Dong ten Hag is gone! | What's next for Man United?
28 Plays29 days ago
Big changes afoot at Old Trafford! 👀 With Ruben Amorim set to take the reins at Manchester United, Erik ten Hag’s era comes to a dramatic close after losing to West Ham. What does this mean next for the Red Devils? 👹 Tune in as we dive into the shake-up, the strategy, and what’s next for the club! 🧐
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Transcript
End of Ten-Hag Era at Man United
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello, hello. It is the Not Upon It podcast and we have a full house here today as we stand over the grave of Eric Ten-Hag's tenure at Manchester United. Yes, the inevitable has happened. We've been saying it for a while. um We've seen it for a long time in fairness that this is kind of possible um as as a job like Man United does bring a certain level of expectation and pressure. We've drafted in all the big boys. We have Nate, we have Rob and we have Connor. Gentlemen, how are we doing?
00:01:00
Speaker
I'll tell you mate, i I'll be honest as as a co-host of a weekly podcast, having Eric Tenhagen and Man United Job was was always good. it did it it It meant there was something to to to be able to to talk about, but ah we we shall see we shall see how how the next hour or so unfolds. How are the United fans feeling?
Fan Reactions and Expectations
00:01:20
Speaker
Yeah, I'm feeling them.
00:01:22
Speaker
I'm feeling relieved. I feel like it's over and now. like We sort of have to look ahead now, so I'm excited what's to come. and I'm excited about the appointment. But, yeah, I think the overall feeling, just I'm glad it's over. Robbie, what are you saying? How are you feeling today? I'm a bit annoyed. That sounds silly. Maybe it's just me. but Like I knew that Eric Tanhag wasn't a great manager. You can play back the clips I said to you guys last year. I never was convinced. I didn't, wasn't convinced by his tactics, by his silence, by how he communicated. I just, I just don't think he's a very convincing elite level manager. I thought Ineos had more about them. I actually thought they knew what they were doing.
00:02:05
Speaker
They gave it a big sell and they took over. They really wanted to take over the football side of things and ah put shape
Management Challenges and Decisions
00:02:11
Speaker
on it. And the fans were told through briefings with certain newspapers and media outlets that like these are the real deal.
00:02:19
Speaker
They chased Ashford and they got the guy from Man City in Wilcox and Southampton and they've just looked worse than Edward Ward. Why didn't they just sack him in May? Well, this is what I don't understand and, you know, Kylie and I, myself and yourself, have been talking about this quite a bit and the fact that, you know, yeah, they only came in in July and can you judge them off July through October?
00:02:42
Speaker
It seemed like they were billed as the Avengers coming in like oma barrrata is a serious operator so Wilcox Ashworth to and it's it's it's kind of just like every big decision they've made since taking over.
00:02:56
Speaker
Bar the likes of, I suppose, some backroom staff bringing in rude. It's questionable. like it's it's if you were good like We were waxing lyrical a couple of episodes ago that if you're going to get rid of them, do it in the in in the international window. like I don't know about you killing them up for me. It just seems like it's disarray in it Ed Woodward's style.
Comparisons to Past Managers
00:03:16
Speaker
i don't think it's I'd like to think it's not as bad as that, but it ain't looking great, man.
00:03:21
Speaker
I think he was kept on to buy time for the likes of Ashworth coming in. There's only so much you can do in a pretty short space of time and I still think he was their transitional manager. I don't think there was ever an expectation of him being there long term now.
00:03:41
Speaker
I think this is more about is his replacement being touted to the other side of Manchester and having to ah jump on that and hop on that sooner rather than later.
00:03:55
Speaker
and for Nate, do you think in ah ah the analogy, as I always use, well was this as much the kind of Steve Bruce at Newcastle? He's the last piece of the old puzzle. And to move on to the next one, he had to go no matter what, or was it a little bit more? Performances aren't great. Playing Maserari as a 10 instead of Amadiello just deserved to be sacked off the back of that.
00:04:23
Speaker
A bit of both, I struggled to criticise any else for last summer, purely just because of all the different things that was going on. and Obviously, we won the FA Cup, instantly becomes harder to sack a manager after you win an FA Cup.
FA Cup and Managerial Dilemmas
00:04:44
Speaker
Ashford wasn't in the door, Barata only just got in the door.
00:04:50
Speaker
manager options were limited and and then you also have to back up a new manager that comes in and you want your guys in there to do it. I and like i feel like the only really option there was to keep 10h. And I think the big thing that's just come down to it now is it's it just become untenable to hold that position. So I do think he was always going to be on the out eventually, whether it was January or or next summer, but I don't think they made the wrong decision keeping them. Robby, I don't know about you, but to me, it kind of makes makes me like reminisce of of of when Dimiteo got let go of Chelsea. He won a Champions League and they were still like, no, we have a plan here, peace out. It's such a bad decision. like So even Ashford, like he might not have been in the building, but he has a television. He can watch Man United play and they're a bad team. They they finished eighth, they're
00:05:46
Speaker
They were a terrible team and badly coached and managed to be a poor communicator. And he was under lots of pressure and the job became too big. So if they can send emails to tell people to come into work and they can sack people and they can raise the price of parking for disabled people, but they took the car his way out with the easy decision of law. And actually, Tenhag winning the FA Cup made it easier to sack them because you sit down and say, listen, this isn't working.
00:06:13
Speaker
Like at all, like it's not working. You may have won that one-off match, and that's great, but this is the best time to
Transfer Criticisms and Team Setup
00:06:19
Speaker
walk away. And then Hag now can walk away. It could have been a mutual consent. Then Hag was probably expecting to be sacked. He walks away bullish. and and we ah we'll always wonder what might have been. Instead he stays and he gives him 200 million and he signs Joshua Xerxes who looks like he won a competition to play for United and then he signs Delict who's just a Dutch Harry Maguire and it's just the same thing over and over again and Amoram was available in the summer like Liverpool were in talks with him. West Ham were in talks with him.
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah, and and that note those West End talks went deeper than yeah those Dublin Pro talks. Yeah, and you had Temple and Pochettino as well, so as other options, so you like you would have had you had multiple options. And to come to the 10-Hag being the conclusion makes me think, God, these guys really, obviously there's always more issues at United, but I really thought these guys knew what they were doing on on the football side of things, but they just botched this forced decision. and Like this guy, Ameren could be a brilliant coach, but at the way they're standing in the position, you know, you probably won't qualify for a Champions League. So you're already rebuilding from a position of weakness. I don't know about, you know, like I think where Robbie's going with that is like I, I too was kind of going after that FA Cup final. Oh, they might've actually twigged it here. Like as in there could be something going, but I think that was more just players in a cup final. And, and I.
00:07:43
Speaker
I'm in two minds about this because I really think looking with hindsight, they should have got rid of them then. But I think, like you're saying, I understand why they didn't, but what's what's your vibe on it? Well, I think it's important to look at the timeline. like we We literally did not have a club set up for a new manager to come in in the summer. He would have been walking in blind and we would have gone back and gone, it's the same thing all over again, no support for the manager.
00:08:10
Speaker
like Ashford just came in in the last weeks, like the last two weeks of the window. Like, I get what you're saying, but to me, it feels like the only decision was to keep 10-Hag. Exactly. Sorry, even Ashford just coming in. Like, if United made no signings in the summer, the squad would probably be a better Nick than, like, other than Agatha. I think that was an Ashford sign anyway. And 10-Hag didn't rate him. He's the only one that looks even half decent, like,
00:08:38
Speaker
I think you're being harsh on that, right? They're not the players. The league is low. Harry Maguire, basically. Have you signed another Harry Maguire? Xerxes is an Ipswich player. like He's one of those lads. like He's not a top level elite player. so Even if like the new manager had no one there to help them, they wouldn't be any worse off. They just couldn't be any worse off than they are now. So I just don't see that as an excuse. He was clearly not good enough and the manager they got was available in the summer for the same price and he was looking to move obviously. So they just
Training Methods and Player Impact
00:09:11
Speaker
botched it really. i do i do wonder though does
00:09:15
Speaker
even with leaving out the players that he's brought in, be it good or bad. and And I think you're being a bit unfair on Dalik there. I think he'll bounce back. But I do ah doing a few eyes on the press. You know, there's a lot of talk of and there was throughout his tenure of how hard his training sessions were. And I know myself and Robbie have previously said, you know, hard work is what they expect. It was professional athlete, but it did it does seem like he was going way too heavy and and and maybe it's just players trying to ah craft a narrative now that he's gone but no I think it was one of you boys threw it in the group chat about when the England camper kind of going back to their domestic setups and and someone was like oh so and so such a player doesn't want to go back to United because all they do is run like that like he seems like he's like a 1987 manager like
00:10:06
Speaker
But this is the same thing that happens at United every time. When a manager gets kicked, the next day he comes out with a 2,000 word article and everything he's done wrong. It's straight out of the playbook. To be honest, whatever 10 sessions, 10 hags was doing, if they're wrong, that's on the club and the staff in the club to correct that. That's up to the fitness staff, that's up to the physios.
00:10:29
Speaker
But I will not get behind players going, oh, we were running too much. We lost. We had to come in and do extra work. God love you. It's like he's got Patreon to grant a week. It's not that domain. It's his accident. It is. It is. it' talk to people so its up to from mean the it's up to be It's up to the people in the club. But they report to him. ah you No, no. You can't treat any athletes like that though, mate. You're not going to bring a horse the day before, tell them on a cross-country run or a Formula One car. like you don't This is not how you treat elite athletes. You don't have them running.
00:11:00
Speaker
You know, it's not back in the day, it's not back in the day night where you, that's what you did for training. Like there's different ways to train. No other team in the elite elite team trains like that. And that's why they got 66 injuries. And I used to say this all the time, every time I come on here, I've liked their injured because he's obviously running them into the ground. They're all muscle injuries.
00:11:20
Speaker
like I just don't think the guy had a clue about English football when he came into it and that was seen in how we approached it and how we communicated or the players he signed or even the training methods. like He can't have guys playing 60 matches this season and then running non-stop and training. It's just not going to work.
00:11:37
Speaker
But that it's a that approach that that I suppose I'm somewhere in your camp of, yeah, you're in 300 grand a week, you'll run as far as you're told. But then i'm ah I'm also kind of in Robbie side of things as well as it's a bit archaic. But what's like what's your take on that approach?
00:11:53
Speaker
But I could tell you, off the top of my head, eight to 10 players that
Club Politics and Blame Games
00:11:58
Speaker
would be crying about it. It's the same people that don't put a shift in on the pitch. I'm sick of the rhetoric that comes out of it through the media. And that article did annoy me. There was 100% some digs that were 100% cracked. And stubbornness was a big thing with 10 hives and that. But There's a huge portion of that article school that came out that was, we're covering our own backs with this, like, I don't know. Yeah, propaganda to cover the club and kind of mask any, I suppose, structural legacy issues that the club might have and kind of throw it all on 10 hag. But like, if 10 hag was running these players into the ground, so people say,
00:12:43
Speaker
is is it not on the physio and the doctor team to come in and correct that and go and listen this is overboard because i can tell you now ten hag wasn't the decision maker at that club of as people like so like if even if it was so egregious and outraged what he was doing i don't see how it would have gone on and who and that's interesting because like look every club is different and you know every i think ten hag by the end of his tenure, like you say, he probably wasn't a decision maker, especially once Ineos came in, he was just a, a figurehead. But, you know, who would that have been? Would that have been a director of football? Was that chairman? Like who, who, who pre-Ineos was the decision maker in United? Sean Merta. That's your boss.
00:13:28
Speaker
Yeah, but more to point to him, and then he is like he's been running out of the club, so you're you're goingnna his judgement was poor to actually point him to start with. I think he appointed him because he was the cheap option. I think his buyout was only $2 million, which for the Glazers, that's music to their areas. But I remember after he lost to Brentford, that's when the Forest of Lamb bells ran for me. but Not being able to speak English.
00:13:49
Speaker
was a big alarm bell. 95% of Dutch people could speak English, and you know found a one coach who actually couldn't. That's not been harsh. but he didn't I didn't know that. When he came, he didn't speak English. He could barely speak English. like He was a possible level, but it wasn't until a level of someone like Van Hal or And you're on a slaughter. I use guys. So it, that definitely counted against them, but then he took them on it. Was it six mile run or something after they lost two or 10 mile run? Yeah, it was something like six or eight yeahra big. county amazing
00:14:22
Speaker
He only made up for the one that they didn't do on the pitch that day. I know, but it's a bit old skill to go, you didn't run yesterday, but you didn't run today. I'm fine. That doesn't bother me. But to me, it just gives insight into his methods that I just think are not at the elite level. But what surprises me, and sorry to cut across you, Robbie, but he came from an i-axis, and it's a factory of football that is at the cutting edge of sports science and how, if that is his way of operating, how did he survive in that IEX
Ten-Hag's Ajax Success vs United Struggles
00:14:54
Speaker
system? I think he just coached the players. I think that's been proven. He wasn't the one necessarily picking the players or picking them for transfers.
00:15:03
Speaker
anything like that he literally just coached the team and i'm sure if you've got him in that environment where there was a director of football like over marzia's director of football van der Sar was the was the ceo so he's a good structure in place in that it was fine and the level is a lot lower Like, I think we underestimate how low the Dutch league is in comparison. I still think that Ajax are a behemoth in that league, but comparably, yeah, they'd probably be like a mid-upper table. It's closer to the SPL than it is the Premier League. It is closer to the SPL. I was looking at Veghor's stat today because he came up with one of the articles he's reading. And he's five goals and five games, so Ajax has gone back this season.
00:15:43
Speaker
Yeah. Six goals and seven games. When he paid for United, he got two goals in, sorry, was it two in 21 games? Like, that's the difference right there. There's been so many Dutch players that come over and they're just so far below the level. And 10-Hag, I think, was the same as a coach. Like, he was not on the level. Like, let's say now there's a Premier League job going tomorrow. Who worries him? Like,
00:16:09
Speaker
Fair point. And Killian, I remember... Yes, we'll stand all over him. Ooh, that actually makes sense. um But like obviously the two boys are a polar opposite of 10 Hags approach. where Where are you sitting on? Are you sitting straight in the fence, Killian? Where are you where you going? um I'm sort of on the fence. He needed to go. I think there was issues with him. I don't think his um methods suited a big Premier League club.
00:16:36
Speaker
um think it was just too big for him to handle and more importantly and this is where I would place a lot more the blame is he couldn't handle the players and even when he tried to be bad cop and harsh and all that it didn't come across that way it came across like the substitute teacher trying to give out it was never really hitting home so you had this team that Listen, I saw this at Sunderland when we went down to the championship and then straight down to league one. When you had players like Catherine Mull or John O'Shea or these players that have been there for years had seen managers out and they couldn't kind of decide when the malaise set in, kind of going, ah, do you know what, you're not worth it anymore. I think you'll be here in a year's time, you won't be. And I think in United got to that point
00:17:25
Speaker
before the FA Cup final. Well, he effectively lost the dressing room twice. He lost at once at Ronaldo and he lost at once at Sancho. I think to Ronaldo one he he came back from. I think that was fine. To Sancho one, i I don't think it was that particularly widespread in the in the dressing room. I think there was opinions, but I like i don't think he was a player worth making or breaking a dressing room. i don't And I don't think the dressing room saw that. But when you have like Rashford and stuff,
00:17:50
Speaker
Like, one of the reasons why I think they got over the line with the Epic Cup is the fact that they brought in players like Diallo, like Garnaccio, all these young lads that had something to prove. And they went there. They played a bit of grid about them um and wanted to set up shop. Yeah. And they went out and they did that. They went on display. But when you have the likes of Arashford and stuff that he doesn't have to try.
00:18:13
Speaker
and he'll still play next week. And he is one of them kind of players that when he's good, he's fantastic, but when he's bad, it's a hard show and he's better better off on the bench. Nate, I don't know don't know what you think. Do you think the truth is closer to that than it is like 10 high, which is an awful manager, or do you think that it was just like a whole lot of stuff coming together at a bad time and it just needed to come together. And I think on that before you answer, take out the players he brought in and what we've been saying about, you know, study did he run him in the ground? Did he not? I think just genuinely in in his style of management, you know. ah they go I think it's a bit of everything. like And I don't think me and Rob disagree on a lot of the fundamentals. I think we disagree on
00:19:03
Speaker
certain like little points that can either be his fault or the club's fault. And I think that's where we lie differently. but I think you can both agree that they're a problem. It's it's just it's it's I suppose the blame of it is is is whether it's the club or the manager. Oh, 100%. I just think like a big one was is there's this mentality of this club and we saw it. I don't remember seeing it before the FA Cup. So like that's why I'm not willing to say that the dressing room was lost before the FA Cup. I don't think I saw it. But for the last six, seven games, there's just players blatantly not trying. like And to me, that's unacceptable on every level.
00:19:49
Speaker
and Do I think 10 hives the best manager in the world? No. Do I think he's good he was good enough to manage manage United towards the end? Probably not.
00:20:01
Speaker
and boss, do I think so much happened in the middle to make his job? ah like it It wasn't an easy, like look, man being the Man United manager is never going to be an easy situation. I think even when Ferguson was there, there was a lot of things that he was able to manage that never came out publicly until years later that that showed how difficult a job it is.
Timing of Managerial Changes
00:20:24
Speaker
But yeah, I would agree with you that he didn't have the easiest set of cards to play with. But like, I i do think there needs to be an acknowledgement then if we're going to say that.
00:20:33
Speaker
is you couldn't have had them hired a manager in the summer. The two can't be you don't go level. like the um it's It's hard because it's it's it's one of those rose tinted glasses situations. like I totally take your point that the club from a C-suite perspective wasn't ready for a new manager because I think that would have been the tipping point of of oh Jesus, Jenga is the first thing that's coming into my head. But like if you bring in a full new director of football, a new CEO, a new head of recruitment, and a new manager, that could either go swimmingly, and like everyone just gets on it and works together, and it's us against the world, or there's too many people trying to figure out their their new roles.
00:21:19
Speaker
That's the perfect time to sack him, though, because everyone's new. So everyone has this idea that, listen, we'll give time, we'll give we'll give Amaron or Pochettino or Tougal or whatever it would have been, from a communications PR perspective. like Like we're all in the trenches together, kind of thing. Vanhal was sacked when he got, Vanhal was told in 2016 when he got to the, by his wife, I think, when he got to like the press conference that like they've sacked you.
00:21:44
Speaker
like it's all over the news. So United did that to Vanhal after winning the trophy and Vanhal finished fifth on goal difference. Man City only finished heading out on goal difference and I actually came down to the last match at Upton Park when West Ham were just suddenly up for the match and they beat United. If that had been earlier in the season, you know, you probably wouldn't have won that in Van Hal is getting to the Champions League. But the point is, Tenag wouldn't have been done badly here. They finished eight. They were terrible. And the players lost faith because his decisions were poor. It's not like he wasn't making bad decisions because Morto was the director of football or Wilcox wasn't in place or Ashford. Like they didn't make him pick Anthony for, I'm looking here, he picked Anthony for like 10, 12 games in a row during the 2020
00:22:30
Speaker
20-23, 22-23 season. Anthony wasn't, I know he signed them, he clearly wasn't good enough. Well that's that's one thing I've been reading of Leiden, I totally take your point Nate that there is always this like almost ready to go multi-thousand multithous word article about these things but even it it seems like players know the truth to this I do not know but it seems like the players he signed he had much more time for in the dressing room and Molly coddled them a bit more and Whether that's true from a behind the TV screens perspective, maybe not, but it always felt like it to me. I don't know about you Killian, but it always felt like they're my boys. I brought them in. I'll protect them. And Anthony was chief among them.
00:23:12
Speaker
I think there was just part of that is more down to there was this core, and there still is this core of players that will be there long after a manager that ultimately just needs to be disbanded. The likes of um Rashford, Maguire could kind of fit in there. Like I think getting rid of it. Yeah, like actually getting rid of it.
00:23:34
Speaker
he like apparently even if you believe for rumors about his time at Chelsea, he was that same type of a player at Chelsea. Like I think getting rid of the hair ended up being a good thing for the dressing room. Really? Yeah. Like when you like when you see his reaction to 10 Hike getting sacked or I don't know if that's a real tweet or not. No, that was and for context for anyone who might not have seen it. How would you even describe that emoji? It's like the chef's kiss.
Transfer Opportunities and Player Performance
00:23:59
Speaker
Apparently it's a derogatory term but used but and by Italians.
00:24:03
Speaker
okay oh like a fa cool kind of yeah jack yeah and if you don't know the hand just pretend you're Italian doing the accent and yeah get it yeah and she hand i kind of love that a little bit i'm not gonna lie pretend i've whipped the contract off him at the last minute like he was i think he was good to stay i'm like i don't think i know it's been brilliant either like so Yeah, going back to it, I just don't think, or the only one I give them any type of leeway with is that, as we said before, I think, Holland is not up to it. I know he scored a couple of goals, but they obviously should have went for Kane and debottled it. And that's not 10 hags fault. Maybe the team would have been different then.
00:24:42
Speaker
Ultimately, I think where it went wrong for Tenhag is Tenhag is not a manager that's going to get more out of a player than the player has, but he can get more out of a team than the team has. Like when you look at his Ajax squad, he was able to make that whole bunch of players into a cohesive unit and bring that bring them on. Do you think that Ajax team though, sorry to interrupt you on this one, but it's it's do you think that Ajax team was was that a lesser moment for that Ajax team?
00:25:13
Speaker
You know, like a kind of magic in a bottle. It doesn't happen again. And he was just happened to be there. To an extent, but also like when you see what happened to IX after that, like if you look at IX now in comparison to that team, you kind of go, yeah, obviously it was. But when you look at what was going on behind the scenes straight after 10 hag left between Overmars and then van der Sargen ale and stuff, like their whole kind of structure that was able to build up to that was almost instantly dismantled.
00:25:44
Speaker
So like, you can't recreate or regenerate when the whole system is then ripped apart. and So like, sort of, but, but yes, you know, like, but but no, like, it's not and like they they have that within within them. But I think when you have Players are playing for themselves and I think that's ah what is happening right now with a lot of Man United players. and You need to be able to get more out of that individual um or
00:26:19
Speaker
Convinced them to be as good as they can, as they should and can be. And I don't think he has that within them. I think charisma and communications come in. Yeah. Communication skills. And he he just didn't have either. That's where like Chelsea sack Pochettino last year, the players absolutely loved them. Like Chelsea have been last season with the mess that that was rail that charisma same with two color. Like he has a charisma. This is what these elite managers need. And then I was definitely didn't have any charisma.
00:26:46
Speaker
Well, I think the biggest alarm bell for me is to, I think the pressures he was under and his lack of charisma was, do you guys remember his interview with Alan Shearer on the pitch at the FA Cup? Felt bad for him actually. Like, ah yeah, Shearer kind of lobbed him a question going like, Jesus, you played fantastic football today. Like where has that been the last eight, nine games? Like that's a pretty vanilla question. Let's be fair. Like it's a veiled kind of pointy one, but like yeah delivered a vanilla and.
00:27:13
Speaker
10 High just went red. And like, I get it, you've every eye in the world on you, you've just won something, you feel like getting the nice, cushy, warm questions. But like, then I kind of thought, okay, writing's on the wall here. He's, he can't hack this. Yeah. na Obviously, the tenure didn't end up the way any United fan would want it. um But does Ten Hag's time and go down as a failure? Like when you consider how long Arteta is in charge of Arsenal and how many trophies he's won and how many trophies Ten Hag has won in two years versus five years, two trophies versus one. Yeah, they may not be on the path to the next level up now in the way that Arsenal is, but did he come in and do what he needed to do and what he was asked to do?
00:28:07
Speaker
and Ultimately it's a failure because we got sacked. That's plain as day. and I do think he dawned the best with the character he was dealt in certain certain situations. I think two trophies and two ears is respectable.
00:28:26
Speaker
and it's more national as you said on on on that arsenal piece that would like obviously two trophies is great and i'm i'm not knocking the fa cup anyway cara about tbc on my opinions um but would you rather be arsenal challenging for the league and not have won those trophies and be there thereabouts and yeah there's some silverware to put on the shelf and you know for the team to walk around the pitch on instagram but like I think structurally, are you're in a better position, not winning those cups and challenging for the league personally. I would rather win the cup.
Value of Winning Cups vs League Performance
00:29:03
Speaker
I don't watch football for it to look nice. like I want to win. To see my team win two trophy studios and a row to me was i can't i can't know i'd miserable levels above watching
00:29:17
Speaker
them going to league running and feel heartbreaking in the season. Like I get from an Newcastle perspective, like we we've won nothing in a long time and I don't count the championship as winning something, but at the same time, I think for a longevity point of view, if you were up there around second, like even I'm not saying Amorim is a subpar manager. I think it's a great coup to get.
00:29:39
Speaker
him in if it gets across the line like we think it has. But I do think if you're in that second, even third in the league position, you're more talking about getting and guys like Zidane in or Ancelotti in or big guys, you know, not not that Amorim isn't or might not get to that level. But I think if you are an Arsenal yeah there's a different level or calibre, should I say, of of manager you can bring in. Do you think that's not going to get sedan? It's better to be in our supposition though. like like I think Ken Hagla lost for nearly 28% of his matches.
00:30:18
Speaker
by Basically, I would have thought that I would have thought it was higher than that to be honest. Yeah. Like it's, it's, it's a, it's more than like, say, Mourinho, for example, lost 23% of his matches only. Um, he scored like what many goals score goals for it. Like lower than like nearly a hundred goals, fewer than soldier, like not too many dissimilar now to games, like to win a trophy was lovely, but I don't think if you told me they wouldn't win a trophy, they also wouldn't lose seven nil.
00:30:49
Speaker
to Liverpool. The joy of being at Newcastle for the f EFL Cup or the Carbo Cup, that was nice. I give that a nice 8 out of 10. It's great. But to lose to Liverpool 7-0 a week or two later just takes away any goodness of that. life or yeah so but I get that, but like what what do we watch football for? and like Not to lose 7-0 to Liverpool anyway, definitely. Well, it's the win trophies. You've seen them win trophies now. I've been following you guys since the 90s. I've seen them win everything, and it's it's it's great. But you want to see sustained, continued progress, and you want to go, OK, I'm going to sit down and then watch this team. I'm going to enjoy them. Or I'm going to watch a team that they might not be playing great, but they're going to try really hard. What you don't want is every fourth match, like they're losing 4-0. Like in 30% of his games, they can see the three goals or more.
00:31:40
Speaker
like That's insane. That's not enjoyable. And to win an FA Cup final as great as that was. It doesn't, it doesn't, it can't make you good for that. Yeah. And that was brilliant, but I just, I was listening to a podcast a while ago and I was like that. Apparently Hitler was doing so bad in the second world war that the British and the Americans were just not going to kill this guy. You need to keep him alive because he's so bad. And I feel like, I feel like Man City or like just this guy is so shit. Just let him win.
00:32:10
Speaker
win they will show They will be out of contention for five years. like just let them and it's a bit like yeah i just I just felt like Man City was a one in a million shot. I don't want to ever go into a game where you're actually stunned that they've won it. Does that make sense? yeah yeah It's almost condescending to think wow man you like to won the FA Cup? Of course Cup, but when you put into the context of it, it's almost it's almost like a pat on the head. now well it's's's it's more and This is one of the few times you'll hear me criticise Newcastle, but that's more of our style of if we won the Cup, I think it would have been, oh my god they actually won something, that shouldn't be used. That's it and I know it was nice but
00:32:53
Speaker
I just don't think it was worth the seven in losses that are falling on losses or the 30% of the matches you can see in three goals or more. It just wasn't likely. I also saw another stat and again, this is just an Instagram stat, so I hope i'm I'm right with this, but it's only Palace and Southampton have scored fewer goals than you guys this season. Like that's insane.
00:33:16
Speaker
you know But that's the reason he does that. Do you think, say say you buy nobody in January or the summer, do you think that Amorim or whoever, like we said, 99% Amorim, can he make Hoyland start
Future Squad Building and Strategies
00:33:31
Speaker
scoring goals? Can he get Rashford back to to to his kind of glory days because like what I have read about him is that he is good with younger players, he's good at bringing them through. He is he can bring or elevate players from from the level they're at to even higher levels and he can also bring team cohesion, which if he can do all of that, you're ah you've got the right guy. like but i But with the squad you have, do you think you think you need to spend another 250, 300 million to solve this?
00:34:00
Speaker
and To fit our squad into his system, I was thinking about that a bit earlier, I think we've got enough centre backs to do. That is key to this because he he plays three at the back, always has. and United are built on 4-4-2. Jonny Evans is going to play a lot more matches now. and so like I think we have enough centre backs, which is good.
00:34:28
Speaker
Fallback is an issue, but listen lads, we can float the idea of Anthony playing Fallback and see what the crowd gets like. Oh no, no, that has to be, you've done I'm joking, I'm joking. and It's like, this is where I worry for you. It's it's like, I keep. My starting 11 would be old man angle, Mazzarelli right back.
00:34:52
Speaker
or right wing back, dalo left wing back. This is me incorporating the injuries that we have. And our left back, I just could never get fit for whatever reason. Right centre back, I'd have Lenny Euro. I think he could really flourish in the back three. I think he could do really well. Does he fit again? Yeah, I think he's two weeks away from returning. Okay, interesting. He fit into that timeline pretty well.
00:35:18
Speaker
and Delicked in the middle. I think he's going to leave that line. Leecha or the centre left centre back. Two centre mids I'd have. You got a... He'll probably get switched around a lot with a class in my hero. A mainoon in midfield. So you got a mainoon in midfield.
00:35:44
Speaker
And then I think it'll be Bruno on the right because he can tuck in when the full backs go forward. And oil and striker can actually left wing. Robbie, any anyone there that you're like in the A, you know? No, I think that's pretty fair. Um, like I saying that basically there's not, there's some, some options he has in some places, too many options, maybe there's loads of options at the back. Then it gets kind of.
00:36:13
Speaker
slimmer as it goes forward like it's basically just Highland to Xerxes. But I think Bruno Gernaccio could do well on played under Amaran already so that's a good sign. Would all these cost saving measures that we're that we're seeing you know everything from getting rid of of Ferguson for his two million year the redundancies and trying to share a plane to the Ballon d'Or with Man City do you think that Amaran is even going to be able to Surely they'll have to give them some money, but I don't get the feeling it'll be, I think it'll be sell to buy. What do you think? Yeah, I think that's good for United though. I just think there's still so much more that needs to be moved out. And one of the good things of the summer was that they were actually actively selling players, which they haven't done before. Even though, say someone like McPominey would have been useful, like they moved them on and got money from him saying, but Wambasaka, and even though he had a good game against United,
00:37:08
Speaker
So that that's a good side. I do think you just need to start clearing out players again really before they start looking at it. And this season's another kind of one of those transition seasons. In fairness, I think with that tree for tree formation, um I think somebody like a Casamiro, it's beginning and the end. I don't think that kind of formation can carry somebody like him and because either you're going to have to sit deeper and I don't think he's defensively there for that or he's going to have to be more mobile.
00:37:39
Speaker
and He doesn't have it in his legs again. No. i am like I think you would quicker see ah Martinez be the backup to Agarthé for that position than you will see Casamiro. Obviously he'll get tested on that, but I think it's...
00:37:56
Speaker
yeah one of Amorin's, if it is going to be Amorin, and one of his kind of priorities will be to fix the Casamiro problem. and I actually, in preparation of this and with the news of Amorin coming in, went and listened back to when we thought Amorin was going to Liverpool.
00:38:16
Speaker
um about six months ago. And it's funny because a lot of the talking points that we've mentioned in this podcast actually colline with that. The day we spoke about that was the day that John Murtagh got sacked. And it was also the week after, um I think it was West Ham, Bette, United, which we were we mentioned earlier. um So it was just kind of ah funny funny to kind of
Amarin's Management Potential
00:38:44
Speaker
compare the two. But what we had said at the time that was Amran, if he can bring a bit of a staff with him, which you would expect he will, and ah in a set up like United are trying to make, he could bring in some very, very astute
00:39:04
Speaker
um signings that he can handle players pretty well when like he's made the likes of Marcus Edwards who was a Spurs Academy graduate. He was able to take like an English grown-up kid and make him into a fully fledged ah a Portuguese league player when it was kind of looked like he could have tumble down the leagues and but still being able to deal with that kind of pampered pooch of football gross mentality. He can get really good performances out of players. Look at Grikeys who they signed from Coventry. And i do I do wonder might he be coming across the water to a certain man you know I did if because he's got him seriously playing and there's been rumours about him coming to the Premier League since last since the summer. He'd be brilliant I just don't think you I can afford him.
00:39:56
Speaker
um And I think sporting will get a lot more bitter about their price tags now that they're kind of taking their manager and taking their manager mid-season. If it ends up being mid-season, at the time of recording, we're not 100% sure, but it looks like looking likely.
00:40:15
Speaker
um And most interestingly from that episode, I do think it's worth going back and... and Episode 22 for anyone who who wants to go back in the deep dive. Literally it says, who is Ruben Amarin? But I put the question to Nate then kind of going, well, what would you say if he was getting linked to United and... Nate's getting squirmy over there. like he's he's He's getting nervous. Your answer was, it was quite telling that you were excited by his style of play, that it was that kind of pragmatic, I'll do what takes the win and I'll make the players do what I need, and which is good. But that you immediately asked the question, is this yet another young manager being hyped up only for failure at a big club? Do you still hold that kind of reservations about him? I think that's a fairer season. A real possibility.
00:41:08
Speaker
and Yeah, I think I still hold that sentiment. and I think we got to be careful with over-hyping him, I think. and Obviously, I went back and looked at the stats of sport, and then like just on paper he was playing some of the best football in Europe, like stat wise.
00:41:33
Speaker
And I think he's the only, his sporting team is the only team and in Europe to to win nine games and zero defeats this season. And I think the big thing with him is we're signing him and he has such a defined side of play that he sort of needs to keep it. And a it's not, I think i think that's non-negotiable. I think he, I mean, coming, I think him in coming, he's like, if I come, we play three, four, three.
00:42:02
Speaker
I hope so. Well, then again, I've been watching United play four, two, three, one from that stadium. So it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm excited to move away from four, two, three, one. Like I'm actually excited to see that it's really the back play out and have a bit more to start, like define style of play. The most, the most arm rooms gone to is is three, five, two. Yeah. So, and I don't know if you have the midfield resources to pull that off.
00:42:32
Speaker
like I think the only thing that I'd say about him is, like just to step up to the Premier League, how will his football translate across? I don't know. I'm excited to see. and But I do think we need to win the Evictor Congress. I don't think there's two ways about it. I think you're not in need to sign.
00:42:53
Speaker
But I think it would make so much sense to give him a player that he knows and trusts and has built, because he can admit not in a you know protect him at all causeway. I just think it makes it an easier landing pad for him. And he's the perfect player to bring in for United team. And a thing that has backed my confidence up about Ameren is all the talk about City ones. and um now know like this and but if City are wanting him to replace Pep at some point, and like they've come out recently or today and said that wasn't the case. like They were always going to though. like yeah I think we all know that it was. like That backs my confidence up. If City want them to replace Pep, that excites me. Well, if you look at him and over the last two years, he's been linked with
00:43:45
Speaker
the Liverpool job, the West Ham job, the Byron job, the Juventus job, and now the Man United job. like You're not a stooge if you're getting that kind of you know attention. Do you think part of the reason why United went from now is to try and circumvent the city attention? I think so. Because I think with i think if if Pep leaves in the summer with Hugo, Vienna, ex Newcastle, I must say, um, being that city. There's, there's not a world in which you wouldn't have entertained that with the caliber of players that they have can get. And with one of his closest friends being the director of football is that's his title over there, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I, I think they either got them, they missed Tookle or Tookle kind of seemed to turn them down. Then Tookle went to the England job, you know, outside of Amoram.
00:44:38
Speaker
if you could potentially say potentially you lost him to Citi then. Who's left? I think there was only three options. It was Javi, which we, it's been made public that we talked to him. Oh, I didn't know that, did you? Yeah, he's pretty set on a honest sabbatical, so that wasn't happening. yeah And then it was Julian Nagelsman, but he's 88 months out from World Cup.
00:45:03
Speaker
He's not going anywhere. Yeah. He was interested, but it would cost a lot of money to get him out of his contract with Germany. So there was only three options. But I do think for looking at it from any other perspective that they picked the right man in terms of.
00:45:20
Speaker
how everything falls into place. of the Of those three, yeah, I agree. I think Javi would have been a mistake in in the way that this is still an unknown about him. um And i i I do think there's going to be a certain Graham Potter in the conversation from a certain Kylie and Gennady that ah ah i I would have, I thought if they were going to go speak to an English manager, I think he was probably going to be the only one. If they're going for an English manager, he is the only one.
00:45:49
Speaker
realistically, because it's not an option. ah But Potter was never going to be an option. Potter can't handle the D.Va level of United players, ultimately. um And i I don't mean that to be overly pejorative of what I do, but not really. it There's just a certain level of expectation and fanfare that is inbuilt to them players that ah the likes of a Potter just can't particularly handle. But Rob,
00:46:17
Speaker
Well, I think it's going to be a lot more telling. We've seen it with Tenhag. Tenhag had a style play at Ajax. And then once he got into United, the pressure got to him and he caved in and tried to play to what the players. He had a leisure as to what a system of football was. Yeah. And then by the end of it, it was just kind of going, OK, I liked this. This kind of worked. I like that. This kind of works. I'm going to try and amalgamate all of this and complete another like non cohesive Picasso-esque formation.
00:46:46
Speaker
and With a style of play like Ameren's that is not naturally ah fitting to the squad that you have, would you be happy enough in a year's time to for United to still be in the same position now, but be on the path to getting better by yeah players in a transition and re-phase of still getting used to, or pretty much only just now, getting used to his formation with the goal of being decent by the end of next season?
00:47:17
Speaker
I don't think oh well, I think you need to be at least top six I don't don't care too much about it the cups I actually that's what nearly bothered me but ten hag that he plays full strength team and a lot of these cup matches like I think they need to be focused on just being in the Champions League because Unless you're in the Champions League, you're not gonna attract top-class players So if you can get close to that, I'd be happy enough book I do worry a little bit because it's it's a little bit similar in a sense to ten
Lack of Playing Philosophy and Club Stability
00:47:42
Speaker
Ag you have this kind of but he's a lot younger than him, he's up and coming, he doesn't have experience in a big league, and he's kind of renowned for being like a tactically astute manager with a certain philosophy. that's You know, you've never really been a philosophy club. You notice from the overlap now with Neville and Kane, none can really tell you what Ferguson said or how he approached games tactically. That's just not really what they've done. They just went out and beat teams. and
00:48:09
Speaker
tactics were never really a big part of it. and but i was It was 4-4-2, for years, unless unless you needed, you were, you know, you go down and you were firing more at the top. Yeah. And there was no philosophy. There's no philosophy the way Barcelona have philosophy or Ajax have philosophy. You know, you don't really have that. So Amron, he will have to be kind of pragmatic. now That's partly why I always kind of wanted Pochettino. I saw Pochettino as a kind of a bridge to this way of playing this kind of more modern style of playing. But, you know, you still need this kind of charismatic man manager figure who can, who can get Rashford to stop. So can, who can get Sancho to start playing or wherever the big money signing is, he can get that player. but in Yeah, basically. And then maybe he might not be a forever manager, a bit like Ancelotti with, um, Ramadilla, I think Pochettino is similar. And that's why I've always, I would die on that hill that Pochettino was the perfect manager for, you know, yeah I agree.
00:49:06
Speaker
And I think he could have brought them through this period now where they have an expensively assembled squad and they just need someone to push shape on it. Instead, now we have another kind of philosophy manager.
00:49:17
Speaker
And he's only young. I think young is something we haven't touched on though. He's 29 though. He's born in 1985. But I think that could be good because it's a young enough team. And I think, you know, 10 hag was, as we said, had about the charisma of a potato about him. But like I, he also from an age perspective was not in the realms of similarity to them. And not that that is everything, but like the guys played 15 times for Portugal.
00:49:47
Speaker
He, like, you know, he retired very early because of injury. He's been there doing it from a playing perspective. He's young enough that he can relate to everyone on the team and not in a kind of, Hey guys, I want to be your friend. But, but, you know, I think, I think there's something in that. I don't know about you, Nate. Yeah. I actually read something interesting today that twice while he was at sport and one was over and although possibly going back to the club, he actually threatened to leave the club. If Ronaldo came back.
00:50:17
Speaker
if they brought her in all of that. I've heard that before. well so I like that. To me, I like that. and he' He's obviously not scared to stand up against stuff that he you feels strongly about, but he's also not going to be this is a club legend. is that this like journey and I that when I read it. He's not scared to stand up to things that he doesn't want to happen. and Which I thought he would have been there at 38 and going to a CEO of a club saying we don't want to be one of the greatest footballers of all time and a club legend to come back. That takes serious cajones.
00:50:56
Speaker
i these threaten to go you love I think he don't know he's done a better job of sporting than Tanaga ever did at IACS and he clearly has a strong character. I just worry about him going into it. Looks like a snake pit. Like, it doesn't look like grey. Do we have any concept of of length of contract here? is anin beenn three Okay, interesting. Longer than I would have thought, to be honest, because Ineos seems scared to do anything long term at the moment.
00:51:27
Speaker
Yeah, three years. Well, that's just like average for any manager. And is there any a kind of indication on staffing levels that he's going to be allowed? Because obviously the way that these kind of bigger clubs seem to be going is that they have their staff and they'll have coaches plus. Between three and five. i he has a He has a circle of coaches that he's been with his whole career. They look to be the ones that will follow him.
00:51:55
Speaker
Which again, I like that too. I like when people have an established team they they like working with. And especially if you're going to be someone who is so set on their ways of ah of a specific system, you need people that know that system. um you know in time just Just a quick one. like I think it's going to be important, as Rob said, about you know it being a snake pit, this and that. is You need generals in there that you can trust. And I think that's something Tenhag didn't have either, is staff that you could trust and players that you could trust really. Speaking of of staff and trust, where does Vanisaroy sit in this whole equation? Where did Sneaky stays? Where does he go? I think it's one match and he's gone. I think he feels used by the club. Apparently he was reluctant to give any interviews in the summer because he didn't want to overshadow.
00:52:49
Speaker
ten his So it seemed like everyone else knew why why he was there, was to replace Tenachag in an interim role, but he maybe he didn't see it that way. And he he left his last role, kind of based off principle that it just wasn't working for him. So I think he'd be gone after the Leicester match the way Michael Carrick left.
00:53:07
Speaker
well like i mean to me i I liked, it like I was really happy for United when I saw he came back. I thought it was someone they needed. Like he knows the club. He was there at its peak. He also, for a team that's struggling to get goals, that man did not struggle to get goals. He is someone you need to pick his brain, you know? Yeah. Like I think I'd keep him if I had the chance. Like in terms of like, I'd be like, come on, stay. Like, and I hope Amaranth sees it that way, that like,
00:53:37
Speaker
I know he's not your guy, but he's like the club's guy. Do you know what I mean? Will he look at him kind of? Could he think he's an arc? You know, he's he's part of the old guard, you know. I mean, like that's been that's been a part of his issue is like. Fucking Darren Fletcher being a technical director that does half the training sessions. It just doesn't make sense. It's like it half the time has felt like an arc. It's like,
00:54:04
Speaker
We want you to do your way, but we're also keeping a big eye. Yeah. Big brothers watching kind of thing. Yeah. So I don't know what way they're going to look at it. Just as we're coming to the end here, guys, I'll give the united two United fans a second to think about this. Connor, let's say Amarin is in charge by middle of November. So that's going to give him a month and a half up until January. Yeah. ah january january January chance for a window and then a couple of months to the end of the season. What would success be for him?
00:54:43
Speaker
I was, I was trying to think back to our predictions episode at the start of the year. and And I think I said, if memory serves that I i didn't think, you know, it would get above eighth. Um, and I think success would be, I don't think league position matters in, in this part, in this part of his tenure, I think is like, well, to a point he needs, he needs top half. And, but I think it's more.
00:55:08
Speaker
if they are playing consistent football and look like a cohesive unit. But I think the best they can hope for is eighth or ninth. I don't know. What do you what do you think? I think just um as long as they can get in European football, whatever version of that they can reach anywhere, yeah anywhere at all there. That's that's a success. Where he is now. That's 14th, 14th with 11 points from nine matches. So yeah Yeah, it's a one of those tricky ones, maybe seven, eight year old conference league or something like that, and just left play the reserve squad and that and focus the main squad. Before you jump in late on this one, are you almost better not getting your three year lads? Just focus on the team.
00:55:58
Speaker
I like how Chelsea have done it with the conference, if you haven't they don't bring any of their big players into the matches, like Cole Palmer's not even registered. ah yeah I think that could work, something like that next year, or was that?
00:56:10
Speaker
But it just has to, airring you know, you just can't be out of Champions League anymore. That's been the big issue with Ferguson, since Ferguson left. It's one season in, one season out, and you're just constantly chasing their tails. So wherever it results in that long term is what they need to be focused on. One thing that I've been thinking recently with Jason, like I kind of knew we'd be talking about positions for for where, you know, it could end up, but like,
00:56:34
Speaker
The more you think about it, it was so bloody impressive of how Arsene Wenger kept Arsene in the Champions League so consistently for decades. more decades you know like ah it it To be able to do that, like I know it was always laughing at Arsene going, oh, fourth place again, but try do it now, boys. Nate, what are you saying? Where where do you think they'll finish up? What what is success for Amaran? I Is it a failure if he doesn't get it, though?
00:57:05
Speaker
yeah like i'm i'm hoping we get like i'm praying to god we get good manager events like and but i don't think the season's over like by any stretch um i think if you can say i get a tune out of players like what, we're we six points behind, fifth, seven behind, third? Yeah, it's not too much of a jump. We're not in the worst position yet. like We're only nine games into the season. It's just kind of like- When you hear 14th, it sounds like absolute anarchy, but when you put it like that, it's not exactly that bad. Exactly. theyre like
00:57:42
Speaker
it's Just as yeah get a good foundation going and listen, I don't think we're going to get Champions League football, but I think we we can definitely get European football.
00:57:54
Speaker
And on that bombshell, um, we will, we will have to just see whenever Amaran gets the job, what he can do, how he's going to try and play with the current crop of players and how they all react to that. It's going to be a fun few weeks with the podcast because of it. My thanks to Connor Glennon, Robbie Redmond, and Nathan Byrne. We'll catch you maybe a little sooner than next week. Bye-bye. Bye.