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Alan Cawley on making Ireland great again (at football)
16 Plays11 hours ago
We've finally got a pundit, and he's one of the best in the biz - Alan Cawley!
As Ireland ebbs to one of our lowest world rankings, we look at what led us to this position and whether Heimir Hallgrimsson is the man to bring us forward. Plus, we look at the development of Irish talent, the growth of the League of Ireland and a surprise appearance from a special guest.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Lineup
00:00:16
Speaker
net Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the Not A Pundit podcast. It's Kylian, Nate, and Connor, as usual, but for the first time ever, we're going to have a pundit. This man is a well-known face and voice on RTE, but also for his League of Ireland and English career. It is the one and only, the legendary, a friend of the podcast and of ourselves, Alan Cawley. Gentlemen, how are we doing?
00:00:48
Speaker
That's quite the intro killing. I'm not sure if I can live up to all that. Good to see you all. It's been a while and it's good to see you. Absolutely. It's great. Great to have you here.
Ireland's Football Scene: Challenges and Prospects
00:00:59
Speaker
The reason why we've called in the big dog is Ireland. There's a feel good factor around. We have a new manager. We have some great young prospects coming through. The League of Ireland is doing better than ever.
00:01:13
Speaker
we're pretty much at one of our lowest world rankings yet. There's question marks over the structure of the management team. um
00:01:24
Speaker
what What can we do to make does it make this better, really? I do i do think it's it's probably the most Irish thing in the world, though, that our domestic league couldn't be doing any better, and our international team are are are having a mayor. But ah I think i I'll ah hand it over straight away to our to our pundit to give us the lay of the land, of at least from from from your perspective of, I suppose, internationally, with Heimer coming in, what what was your feelings on it?
John O'Shea's Exclusion: A Surprise Move
00:01:50
Speaker
Yeah, of course, it was a left field appointment, lads, and one that nobody foreseen. We were all kind of, I thought we got we had kind of got to the stage where I felt John O'Shea was probably going to get the job. And I was fine with that and stellar career that he's had, well-respected in the game. I thought in a couple of friendlies that he stepped in as the interim, did quite well. And I thought that's kind of where we were headed, certainly in terms of the coaches you had brought in as well, Glenn Wheal and Patti McCarthy, and you're kind of thinking, and we can get behind this. you know and something to build build on ah going forward. When he was asked the second time to do the interim, I don't think he should have did it at that stage because he was being lined up to take over. why wanted them no I know in terms of they wanted him to step in just because they weren't sure of a full-on appointment, but I think if they were serious about him ever being a proper candidate,
00:02:42
Speaker
he shouldn't have been asked the second time. And I think John should have told him, look, I'm either going to be the manager or I'm not. But i anyway, look, he stepped in, did his four games. I almost thought it was an insult to him, but I was at the stage then where I'd be quite happy to give it to John. And I thought he was probably the leading light, I feel like, and because I never felt we were going to get Lee cars. Lee never. Yeah. I think that was always ah ah a bit of a pie in the sky. But even with that, I think that the comms around it were surprising because like, don't get me wrong. I like you.
00:03:11
Speaker
He can say what you want about his time yeah at the and as caretaker of the England national team. But his under 21 career is stellar. But I think all of us in the pod were a bit kind of going, probably aiming too high with that one. And I think you're right with the Jon O'Shea thing. I think he was, my only rationale is the way he stayed in there the second time was trying to shop himself for a job in the UK or even ah further afield, I don't know.
00:03:35
Speaker
Yeah, potentially. And I think it's just because it literally boils down to Connor. He's a proud Irishman and he's a good fella. And he didn't want to probably see them in the lurch. But he was nearly too nice for his own good because I felt at that stage, he should have said, look, I've done me two games. If you want me to be the manager, tell me if you don't tell me. But it should never have really got to that stage, I suppose, the point that I'm making.
00:03:55
Speaker
and And then ah totally, as I said, I never felt Lee Karsley once he was being touted maybe as potential ah for the interim with England because he was already on that pathway with England and in the system, if you like, over there. And his his credentials were very, very good over there that I never felt we were going to get him.
Heimer Halgram: A Controversial Appointment
00:04:14
Speaker
And so then we get this totally left field appointment, which I felt to be fair. Some of the commentary around Heimer Halgram saying when he came in first was a little bit disrespectful because
00:04:28
Speaker
And as Killian said in the intro, because of our standing in international football currently at the moment, we have no reason to be looking down on our nose at anybody. and And I felt it was a little bit disrespectful. And my initial comments were, yes, it's left field. Well, let's give the man a chance and he can be doing no worse than maybe where we're at at the moment. And then when he came in, I thought so far we've seen him obviously in the few games.
00:04:49
Speaker
i I felt he let himself down a little bit, no, not let himself down, maybe that's the wrong phrase, but I felt the media duties in the first camp, I i felt as though what he was trying to do in the fact that John O'Shea had had the four games and that he was kind of leaving it up to John, if you like, a little bit. I kind of got where he was coming from, but at the same time, if you're a new manager coming in, you need to stamp your imprint all over the team and the squad from day one. And even with the media, come out and speak to them and and we And with with with that, like as a former player, because i you know from from the outside, as a fan, you're kind of going, i like you said, I get John taking it, maybe the first one. I don't let him get his bearings. But like as as a player in the dressing room, where you kind of go, oh Jesus, he's we we're worried now. like
00:05:33
Speaker
Yeah, well, not so much even worried, Connor. It was just a case of, I suppose, the players were probably in the same boat as us, the supporters, because he was so left field. And they were probably curious to hear and know what he was like. Yes, they were hearing him maybe on the training ground. That was only maybe the initial two or three days, whereas in press conferences, you can hear questions being asked about what way you like to play, your your philosophy, all these kind of phrases and things. And I just felt, on those ones, he should have been out facing the media front and center.
00:06:00
Speaker
He didn't for whatever reasons. We heard the reasons afterwards. But I just felt your first campaign set your stall
Struggles and Hope for Ireland's Team
00:06:07
Speaker
out from day one. And he never did that. Then we moved on. That would have been the only criticism I would have had from him. Then we when we moved into the second camp, I actually felt as though he talked that criticism on board. And he was very much front and center in the last couple of games that we had seen. And it was great to get the victory in Finland. Like we've been crying out for a victory. We really have.
00:06:27
Speaker
and and it was a great call, Robbie Brady scored as well. I felt in the second game against Greece, we were well beaten, we were totally outplayed, only for Keller, it would have been four, five, six, it could have been. And there's loads to work on. He was under no illusions just how difficult the job was and is and and I'm sure he's even seeing that it's probably even more difficult than he ever imagined right now as well at the moment because of our standing as Killian said and where we're ranked and stuff and but that's not to say there's potential there as well and I like him Connor I have to say he's very pragmatic he's realistic he says it as it is he's not trying to pull the wall over anyone's eyes he knows it's a difficult job he's telling us that well I think so far give the man a chance and he's done okay
00:07:09
Speaker
i think I think we're all in in in that camp to be honest and I think our only, I'll be honest with you, ah we we we we gave Robbie Brady a bit of shit for a while there and and when he put the ball in the back of the net, we had to eat our humble pie. But you know I think our one criticism was he was he was slightly safe in his initial so team selections. that and I don't know if you were feeling the same. As the way we described it was, if this is your experiment and we'd hate to see what you're doing it in the bedroom. of Jesus Christ.
00:07:38
Speaker
I think again going back to the comment just about like that he was leaving a lot up to John I'd say that was probably coming from John with Robbie as well because they have a relationship going right back to the man United is to be fair to Robbie and Preston are going quite well at the moment he is playing games regularly and and I think we seen that in in the Finland game in the second half he was absolutely brilliant now I'm sure you're probably coming at the angle no more than any of us that look we've seen Robbie for a number of years now maybe it's for someone new to come along but the left back position has been a problem for quite a while and no one's really stepped up to the play in terms of a younger player and grabbing that jersey if you like and and making it his own to move forward so that's why Robbie is still there but
00:08:19
Speaker
One thing Robbie Brady has always had throughout his career, and he still does, and we've seen that in the game, is quality. And that's something that we're lacking, whether it's deadwalls, specialists, set pieces, deliveries from from white areas, whatever the case may be. He's always had that Robbie. And I think we saw it that in the game. But certainly going forward, I i just feel as though that is an area where we're probably crying out for someone. And there's probably another couple of positions on the pitch, something similar. and now I think the right back position is something as well, where it's probably up for grabs at the moment. And we saw the comments from Matt Doherty. I'm sure he wasn't too pleased being left out of the squad, as he said himself. and But I think the manager got that one right because in the previous campaign, he didn't perform. And I think this manager, one thing that I think what we've seen, even though it's only a small sample size, is if you're not performing, you won't be playing. It's as simple as that. And I think that's always the best policy for a manager. It's so it's it's the best standard to set. I think, you know, our our grievances would be a Brady or or any of the people have been around for a long time. is it's it's It's not their the talent level that or or or I think it's more that just we need to plan for the future. And, you know, with the future in mind, is is there any of the we've got a crappy young players coming through? Is there anyone
Developing Young Talent in Ireland
00:09:30
Speaker
who you're kind of championing?
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah, well, definitely in terms of the center or half positions, that's where we're kind of stocked. And now I know he kind of trialed with Darryl Shaytinger right back. I wouldn't like to see that in the long term, because I think Darryl Shayt, unfortunately for us, we're stacked at center half, because I think our best players are all center halves. Darryl Shayt, Nathan Collins, and I was watching Scales even last week in the Champions League, and he was outstanding. And I think that could be the makings of a really good partnership there with the likes of Collins and Scales.
00:09:57
Speaker
are i I would love to see O'Shea in there somewhere as well, because I really like that O'Shea. So I think we're stacked in that area. Every say like your mom, but I think he's still very much hit and miss in terms of and there's potential all right. But I think what you get with a young player, and we've seen that even he's he's on loan now, Watford. And you can kind of see that he's a little bit up and down and obviously provided at that moment and a great cross for Brady. But what you're going to get out of him over a period of eight, 10 games on a consistent basis.
00:10:25
Speaker
I'm not so sure so I think definitely the wide fullback areas there's there's places up for grabs but who's going to take them I don't know um Connor what I like what he what he did and unfortunately the bad news without Benage during the week him as a wingback what we seen in the second half he was absolutely outstanding and Is that a cat on the screen? That is a cat, yeah. i reckon we ought to be like where a car is roing across the screen and being involveds and pick and all sorts of kelly and i love it the real secret of without a pun yeah yeah does there's There's an extra presenter in the mix there. Alan, the question I have for you, as far as isn't he, is sort of touched on it is
00:11:06
Speaker
and like I feel like we were sort of unlucky with the group that we got in terms of England and Greece is like Greece are a really good side they just came off the back of beat in England and I think One thing I took out of that second Greece game was we sort of need to readjust where we think we are to where we currently are. And I think that would be a big thing for fans and um people that follow the team is then it gets a bit easier, like, I think support, not support, and both but realizing what what avenue you're in. And i'm just I'm just interested to see, like, from your perspective, how you think that like where you sort of think we are in terms of ah
00:11:48
Speaker
Yeah, I agree totally Nate, but I think the readjustment should have happened about a year, a year and a half ago, because if fans and supporters can't see just how far we've fallen and just how far we're off the level and of where we think we should be or where we would have hoped to be, and i'm not so i'm not I don't think it's any clearer than what we're seeing in the performances. We're a million miles off it. Now you mentioned England and Greece and that obviously was a difficult group. And if you're comparing us to England, yes, we're a million miles off it. If we are comparing us to Greece,
00:12:18
Speaker
were a fair bit off them as well, as we've seen in both games. Finland is probably our level now, and we saw that in the game against them, and there wasn't probably much. And I do think we were probably the better team. It was probably the best performance we've put in in a wee while, which was good to see. But certainly in terms of the expectation, and you look at the nation's league, or the groups, or the qualifiers, and we're right down in like par four or whatever. I don't think we're quite par five yet, but we're certainly par four. We're on the brink of it, yeah. Yeah, and it's going to be. and It's going to be a long road back.
Pragmatism in Team Management
00:12:50
Speaker
An interesting thing that I sort of took out of Heimer in the second camp was he sort of started talking about being more pragmatic. And I think that sort of hi part of the person we we lacked under Kenny is is being pragmatic. And I've been a big fan of that. And I'd wanted us to switch to being more set up to to BT, not BTs, but be become heard to be. And I think that's one thing I took out of the second camp as a positive is those sort of and questions coming out of Heimer is like,
00:13:20
Speaker
We got to be hard to beat on the pitch and that's the first step and then you build on it. Yeah, again, I agree totally Nate because as much as I champion Stephen Kenny and luck with the job, he's doing in our parts and all and then people might say, oh, well, he's back at his level and he was never kind of an international manager. But to be fair to Stephen, I think Stephen got caught between a rock and a hard place because he come in probably ah and timing is everything in football and he come in and he and sometimes you just can't pick your jobs.
00:13:48
Speaker
they They just fall at your feet and sometimes you feel, this is my time and I have to take it. But it might not be the best time. The likes of an example of David Moyes taking home from Alex Ferguson. He probably felt it was the best job in the world and it was. But taking home from Alex Ferguson is near impossible. but So it can be the wrong time as well in that regard. And I just feel with Stephen, because there was so much to do. And then it was almost the case of not only the turnaround, the turnover of players and trying to get and bring in new players and get them caps under their belt and get them game time at senior level as well. There was also this kind of and almost kind of a debate that used to rage and break out after every match about the style of football and the culture and all that kind of stuff.
00:14:31
Speaker
and I always think the one thing with us Nate and the one thing that we've always had is that we've always been tough to beat and there are strengths and it should never go away from our strengths that doesn't mean to see you can't play a football or you could still be very very hard to beat and I think with Steven he almost went away from what he was always very good at and if you look at his Dundalk team and his parts team now There were never this possession-based team that would bore you to tears and go over and back the pitch, playing side where it passes. There were dynamic, direct, getting bodies in the box, two wingers always going down the line. And you see that with same Pats now. And I'd love to speak to Steven, and I will one day, and the question I'm going to ask him is, did you really die on your sword? And I don't think he did, because going back to the tree at the back and the wing backs, that was never Steven. He always played a 4-3-3, or something like we see with Pats now.
00:15:18
Speaker
with obviously something similar with the two wide players and Keena up front and being direct and quick. good part Good progressive football, but none of this stuff over and back. And I just think we got bogged down so badly by that, Nate. And then there was almost, as I said, these debates were raging almost game by game.
00:15:35
Speaker
and we've gone away from all that. So to hear Hymer come back, and he's obviously noticed that, and then he's coming from a background of Iceland where they would have been very, very similar, their starting point was tough to beat, don't concede goals, and if we can nick one on the break or a set piece, or eventually we we progress forward in terms of trying to play a little bit more attack on football, but their starting point is that you don't concede. I think he's right in doing that because I think that's what we have to get back to.
00:16:00
Speaker
ah For me, like it's something we've discussed in the pod a lot, and it's even mostly with Ireland, but in football teams in general. like For me, especially with Ireland, like I don't care if we have a specific way we play football as long as we're competing in games. I don't care if it changes week to week and in in who we're playing and as long as we're were fighting, but i mean you know is that difficult for players to be in that scene where they don't know what the system is and it's kind of like just go out and beat them lads. Like that's probably not the easiest as a player to to handle.
00:16:31
Speaker
Yeah, and even saying that now, Connor, and I think if you were to speak to 90% of fans, they'd probably agree with that statement that you just said. But we were coming off the back of some of the worst football you'll ever see with Trappatoni, Mick McCarthy, horrendous stuff. And people were just so sick of it that they wanted to see us playing a bit more progressively. But now because they've seen it's been so difficult and so hard for us to implement that, I think people are back to the view of, look, I don't care how we get results once we get
Balancing Style and Effectiveness in Football
00:16:57
Speaker
results.
00:16:57
Speaker
now I've always maintained even when I was championing Steven, there's still a balance and there has to be a balance. It can't be all one way and all another way. It can't be total football or dinosaur football. You can still play, attack on football, but you can also still be very, very hard to beat. Like look at Liverpool at the moment.
00:17:18
Speaker
Underclop used to cough up so many chances. They've only conceded three goals. Now, I know the two goals at the weekend. They've only conceded five goals, yet they're still electric going forward. So it's just about their shape and their setup and how we are structured in and out of possession. And I think to be fair, this manager is probably a little bit more along the sides of a bit more caution and then attack rather than we're all out of attack and wide open and we're getting caught left, right and center. So I definitely think there's a balance.
00:17:44
Speaker
I think fruit for Kenny, one one of the the issues he encountered and I think you were kind of touching on it there is he fell into that kind of pep Guardiola world of expectation of there's a system and there's ah there's a whole plan in place but I think a large part of why it went sour so quickly was, ah ah and this is personally speaking now, I think he was mismanaged from a communications point of view. I think is his post-match interviews, I don't know if he was, I think that was the only part of me and him not being potentially ready for the world of international football was was what came with it. From a football's perspective, I think he had it, and I think he, as he said, what he's been able to do with the dark and passing, and I think it's, i i I wouldn't want people looking at that, looking at saying that's his level, but I think it was just a,
00:18:28
Speaker
bad PR job for a lot of it, you know? Yeah, and of course, I suppose because there's so much scrutiny nowadays, Connor, the media side matters so much. There was a time years ago when you might only hear a manager speak once a week. Now they're out doing interviews two, three, four times a week. Every clip is caught up, social media.
00:18:46
Speaker
and little snippets here there and everywhere you say the wrong thing people are jumping all over it and so it's very very difficult in that regard and i think that's why you have to be almost really really sharp and polished when it comes to the media stuff as well not so much just about your football end i think you have to be good in that regard as well and yeah he probably did fall down in that area but um it was just it's just sad for me because he cared so much we all wanted him to succeed um and and i definitely think he didn't He didn't die on a sword. He definitely didn't die on a sword, changing the formation to trace the back. I don't always have been influenced by others. Anthony Barry came in at the time. He was very much from that mold, highly you regarded coach, coming from Chelsea. That's the way they were playing. I don't know. I i have never i haven't never spoken to Steven about it, but I will one day definitely and ask him that.
00:19:34
Speaker
or You look at, as I said, you look at the way his teams have always played. And I followed Dundalk for years. We recovered every match with Dundalk and were electric to watch. And now you watch Pats and it's something similar. So I definitely believe that ah he never died on a sword. I'm delighted for him that he's been able to get back to just enjoying football, you know, or it it seems like he is so like, ah like i I don't know him, but like, it seems like he's back to enjoying it.
00:19:58
Speaker
One of the things that Kenny could never have been criticized for though it was a bloody true talent. Like he did bring through a good few players and I've now become like starting 11 players for Ireland and one of the things that excited me when Hymer was announced was he was he's quite good at that as well, but he's also very good for doing the granny role, which I think it was like seven players and in a short time at Jamaica coming through. Now, myself and the lads have disagreed on this on more than one occasion. I want to see that ah used to its fullest. But obviously, you've been in dressing rooms, you've been in dressing rooms where there's different nationalities kind of coming together. Like you've been one of the guys coming in from Ireland going over to the UK,
00:20:46
Speaker
is this Is it something that you think could work? um Or do you think it's potentially not worth the risk for a manager that's already facing a fair amount of scrutiny that he hadn't been quite used to?
00:21:01
Speaker
Oh, no, I think Killian, um, he has to avail of everything that's kind of on offer to him in terms of if a player strengthens the squad. And if that means it's true, the granny rule or whatever, and he feel as though it'll be a player that will enhance the squad and help him and potentially be a starter and help us. I'm wants to play. it That's the most important thing from these lads that are here for the right reasons. I don't want to play. Well, then absolutely. That's what the rule is there for. And you have to, you can only work by the rules. So I'd have no issue with that.
00:21:30
Speaker
the only ah issue I you would have is that you're bringing a lad in for the sake of bringing him in um and he doesn't really want to be here. Well then what's the point? I'd much rather see a young Irish lad play than giving someone ah an opportunity that doesn't really you want to be here. The reason he probably brought so many in at Jamaica is because they were probably a limited squad, a lot more limited than us, so I don't really see him see ah c him being in a position where he has to bring in that amount. But as I say, if there's one or two that can help us, and I think we're in that situation killing where I don't think we can turn our nose up at any at any situation that's going to help us, as I say. So if that's the case and that's what he's going to do, and yeah, I'm sure he's looking at things like that. He has to be.
00:22:12
Speaker
what's what What's success for you with this Ireland team? or suppose and like I mean, look, we're not we're not going to win any tournaments. where We're lucky if we're even in qualifying contention. but what what's this like is Is it a style play you're looking for? Is it a is it a system? is it Is it just winning games? or what is it One thing he spoke about as well Connor to go back to what Nate was saying about us being tough to beat and another thing he said and in a couple of accounts so far that I really liked is continuity and team selection and getting lads that he's maybe only using 14, 15, 16 whatever like bearing injuries but
00:22:46
Speaker
Again, with Steven, there was such a turnover, and you were chopping and changing. You have to build relationships in teams, and you look at all the best teams. They know they're eight, eight, or nine, or 10, or starters, and you might change the odd one here and there, or through suspension, through an injury. But the nucleus of the team remains the same always, and you look at all the successful teams. That's what you'll get. And he spoke about that, and he wants to get to a situation where the lads coming in know that there's at least eight or nine.
00:23:12
Speaker
he's the there's the two center halves, there's the two center midfielders, a wide man, ah the left wingers suspended so I might have to bring one in but at least I know the nine that are that are going to play on this side of the pitch or whatever the case may be. So I think that's important and to get to that stage as well and I think that's what he's working towards which I think is a positive if he can get that success really.
Legacy Issues in Irish Football
00:23:34
Speaker
I suppose we're at such a low web corner. The only thing we you just want to see is get back to some sort of competitiveness that we're in a group or we're in the fight, you know? And I think it's going to be baby steps. Like this isn't Heimer algorithm's fault or it's not Stephen Kenny's fault. This is a legacy issue of the lack of investment and the lack of interest towards Irish football for a number of years.
00:23:56
Speaker
and now the chickens are coming home to roost and this is why we're seeing us struggle so so badly so if anyone thinks this is Hymer's fault or Stephen Kenny's they're they're so mistaken as I said this is the lack of um real kind of care and attention that should have been there over a number of years towards Irish football that hasn't been there and now we're seeing the results of that so it's going to take us a long long time to get back to where we are. And even you've started about, I suppose, League of Ireland thriving at the moment and crowds up and the increase and in crowds and all. It is absolutely. But the facilities are still as bad as they've ever been. And that's been a major problem as well. There's been no worked on facilities over the years. So Irish football has been neglected for such a lengthy period of time that not only is it an issue at senior football, domestic football as well. And hopefully we're on the road to seeing it come back. and There was an announcement made today with Mark Scallon just about, I suppose, what.
00:24:47
Speaker
and the league offers to the economy as well and the money it brings in which is only a good thing and we need to be telling that story to government and government officials so that they'll reign in behind it and we can see the investment going into the facilities that we need from a government point of view but that's why we're in the situation we're in not because Heimer's community was a left field appointment or Steven might have struggled for two years it's because of the shambles that Irish focal has been for such a long period of time in terms of all the legacy issues and the neglect that's been, that was there with the previous regime. And do you think that's kind of across every club in the league? You know, obviously there's, there's teams that are better and worse in the league of Ireland, but ah I mean, I outside one or two, it seems to me like those facilities are the same across all levels of teams in the league.
00:25:34
Speaker
Yeah, because and as I said, that there we're getting no help to clubs. The clubs were were firefighting on a regular basis, year in, year out, between wages, salaries, trying to get ah a few pound together to come up with a stand or whatever. Now, the Shamrock Rovers model, you might say is very good, because the council got them to ground. And that's where we need to be kind of touting towards stuff like that. The Daily Mail redevelopment is great news. But we need to see more of it. and And I think we would have seen more of it if Irish football was in a much better position 20 years ago, 30 years ago, the last 10 years, whatever the case may be. set Finally, I can see stuff that's going on now that I've been banging a drum about for 10 years that I think we are all, we are eventually looking towards getting structures and stuff in place that we can start to move forward. But because
00:26:23
Speaker
it's been over such a lengthy period of time we have fallen so far behind all the other progressive nations that have been doing this domestically and that's why we find ourselves in a position where it's going to take a little bit longer maybe and but for the first time in ever since I've been involved in Irish football I can see things happening and discussions taking place with people that I i can eventually or can finally see there'll be results out of this and re really positive progressive results Alan, I'm interested to get your point of view because I've sort of floated into the lads in the past is with the Ireland team. its Some positions were really strong at and and some were not. and
00:27:01
Speaker
I go back to, say, and recruitment in in the League of Ireland and bringing through players. Is there a way to target positions and bring more, like, put more emphasis on developing young talent in a certain position? Like, because I always have back to, say, rugby and not not to get into that is dire view. We'll go to the four clubs and go, you're not signing another player from outside Ireland in that position.
00:27:28
Speaker
until we're happy with we what's coming through. It's like, do you think that's a possible way to go into bringing through more talented positions that we need? Yeah, I'm not sure, Nate, and from what I know of the rugby, the IRFU controlled it for, Nate, for problems. With an iron face, yeah. Yeah, and their sole kind of, as you say, focus is to get lads through to make Ireland a better team. And the skill system too, you know.
00:27:55
Speaker
So it's not like for like it in terms of the clubs here and it's so fragmented our structure, and rightly or wrongly, but certainly in terms of it'd be very hard for a Heimer to go to a club and say, all right, make us a number 10 or make us a number six. sorry So it doesn't really... Do you think it could be incentivised through fondant or maybe stuff like that, you know, like quotas and stuff? Like I'm just the i'm just from the idea of of how do we we get them next players in?
00:28:24
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think it just comes back to the standard of coaching that we have as well, to be honest with you, Nathan. For years and years, again, go back to the lack of investment. We've had volunteers coaching, and we still have volunteers coaching in certain positions, so they're not specialized coaches, if you like. and Now, there is clubs trying their best, and now what academy coaches at a higher level and getting their licenses, coaching badges, all that kind of thing will help. and to develop young players and to coach them in a better way, I feel like. But we've been so reliant on all our best players going to 15 and the English clubs with all the professionalism that they have in terms of coaching and resources and facilities and all that. Finishing off the development of a lad from 15 to 18 and then he plays in the first team and then he plays in the senior team for Ireland at 20 and this fella's amazing.
00:29:08
Speaker
But he's after getting five years of elite level coaching and training, whereas because of Brexit, this has been stumbled on our doorstep. And all of a sudden we're trying to fumble around and think, all right, put this in place, put that in place. And again, go back to the conversations about government funding and and money going into clubs that eventually we can kind of ring fence towards just purely for paying for coaches if you like and to give them to give the players because the onus is on us as the onus is on us now and responsibly is on us to develop the players which has never been there and if we can get to a stage where we have we do have and there is great coaches i've no doubt about it
Brexit's Impact on Young Players
00:29:44
Speaker
but if we're getting the support and investment behind them to make them even better we will develop brilliant players if you like but
00:29:51
Speaker
All this is a result of all the the shit that has gone on, excuse my French, but that's the reality of it. and if And if you're one of those top prospects, like as you were when when you were it when you were a young lad, would would you be like take take out even the Brexit rule? Would you be looking at the UK still going, yeah, that's that's where I need to be to have my career or would you go like as it's great to hear you're saying that, you know, you're seeing starting to see signs in the League of Ireland that that's coming through. But if if you had to do it all again, would you be thinking try stick it out at home for for another year or two? Or do you think it's if if if you're at that level or you just focus solely on the UK?
00:30:27
Speaker
Yeah it's a good question Connor and I've been torn on this over the years because when I went to away and for everyone that whether it went away at the same time as me or in around that time England was the be all and end all and that was it because there was nothing here in terms of an opportunity but now because not just with Brexit, but because the clubs now we're in a position where there is academy teams, underage teams playing in a national league against the best players. And you can see a pathway through those age groups that you see the likes of a Mesa media playing in the first team, or any of the young lads progressing through. And you can see, I could play in same paths at 18, 19, 16, 17, whatever, if they're good enough, that all of a sudden you feel as though you're, you're a player and there's a not, there's an
00:31:09
Speaker
there's a real opportunity for you to to make your way in the game here if you like. Now, when those lads, the exceptional ones will always go away anyway, Connor, and I have no problem with that. And you will see Mason Media go away or all these lads. But now I see lads starting out at 14, 15 wanting to play with Bohemians and wanting to play with St. Pat's or Shelbert and not feeling like, oh, it's just England and that's eight or Europe, whereas they actually feel as though I could have a career here. And if we can get the, I suppose, rowing behind,
00:31:38
Speaker
and the investment side of things that if we can get the facilities in place and the structures in place, and that famous word that everybody uses, if we can make an industry here, those lads will make a career for themselves here that they'll never even have to go away. Now, they might not make the money that they'll have there. They can live on forever, but they'll certainly make a full-time career for 10, 12 years for themselves and hopefully earn good money. And that's the aim. That's where we're looking to get the league to. And that's not just with young players. Coaches want to be doing their coaching badges as well.
00:32:06
Speaker
with the view that I could manage shells or I could be a coach, I could be a system manager, I could be a full-time coach in the League of Ireland. There's very, very few roles and jobs for all of those lads and there's hundreds of lads, I know they were coaching roles and coaching badges, but there's so very little opportunities for them and that's why everybody goes on with this industry world and that's where we need to get to, both from a playing point of view and also maybe from a coaching point of view.
00:32:31
Speaker
like what you're saying about building an industry like one of the conversations that we've had before kind of on that and it's kind of along the lines of what Nate was saying was With the conversations happening now of a potential third division in the League of Ireland, do you think we should be looking at a development team for the Irish structure within the league structure? So this was like a model that was done out in the Philippines. So they had the Azca development team. The whole point of that was basically for players that were trying to break through into the youth teams of the national teams, the under 21s and all that so that they can kind of get used to playing with each other and or players that were maybe not quite
00:33:11
Speaker
good enough to go abroad but were too good for the ah teams that were in the league or the league couldn't afford them and that they couldn't take the risk on them and they wanted to get them that extra bit of time. Do you think that there is space for the f FAI to kind of have a team like that where them players that may lose out by just being not getting a move at the right time or anything like that, that they're kind of given time to bed in and maybe kind of have like what Man United are doing now with like a Paul McShane role of kind of like having these young players playing along these seasoned players and playing men's football rather than just getting stuck in that perpetual youth ah game.
00:33:55
Speaker
and Well, the third division thing I wouldn't be a fan of anyway, to be honest, like we need to sort out the first division here, nevermind bringing in another third division, like the first division, I feel sorry for the teams, like teams with huge his history and it's like a graveyard for those teams with no real incentives for them to get better or to improve or or watch the plan really for them. Whereas I see huge development within in the primary division with them all full-time, Bart Rada, and that might change soon with them as well with their investment.
00:34:23
Speaker
but I'm not sure about a development team, to be honest with you, Killian. Would you put them in the third division? Is that what you're saying? um was if with If they're talking about expanding, well, then there's there's going to be space for extra teams. like yeah Ideally, I think for a first division, like um kind of in the realms of like what UCD are were initially that kind of but just a centralized team kind of control by yeah yeah so that like a BS on the 21s coach for Ireland would be having an influence on them and kind of it would kind of potentially give a more of a full-time role to what would be currently a part-time
00:35:05
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I would I would have taught the lads that would that could be kind of players for that team are probably already involved. ah Because if they're if they're like, if you're talking about a development squad, I think they'd be good enough to be playing in the first division or a primary team anyway. So you're probably looking at them on a regular basis. And I don't want to see I know people were saying around the time, I think Stephen Bradley was critical of it as well. The hymen were saying about bringing in a team, you know, around January or I wouldn't agree with that. I think lads are there. Like, again, going back to we're 64th in the world or whatever. So no way should an international team be looking down their nose at a Graham Burke or a Jack Byrne or a Danny Mandrio or a Mason Mealy, an hour league whatsoever. Some of those lads would be good enough to play in the national team. So I wouldn't be going along with that. Now, I think to be, I don't know if it was Heimer in agreement with that or whatever. I can't remember. I just know Steve Bradley was critical of it. And I would agree with Steven on that. These lads are playing here.
00:36:01
Speaker
and I don't think there's anyone right now at this moment that would play in the national team, but I definitely think there's one or two around that and could potentially force their way into the squad. Maybe and I definitely think that, you know, and there's a lot of young players in the league at the moment and you look at even the likes of God, my law, you just got away playing with.
00:36:19
Speaker
Aberdeen, now he's an outstanding player. He'll be in the senior team soon enough as well. I think he's absolutely brilliant. And he's been the best young player in this league for the last 18 months, two years. And so I definitely think there's players in the league either with the potential or if to get themselves back to a level or a standard that could be in the next squad. Yeah, it's it's it's one of them kind of I think what where Heimer was coming from with that kind of idea is something that the Scandinavians do where it's it's it's a version of the B team.
00:36:49
Speaker
of like what England used to do with the B or the C teams and just kind of give them given lads, not to sound terrible but like pat on the head caps. It was something that I ah e thought and is a good thing because I think it's it's again one of them kind of a giving a little bit of hope to the league but maybe it's condescending for me to say that. Yeah it is, I think it is Kelly. Not you, I mean I think that's how it would be viewed yeah if that was it in place.
00:37:20
Speaker
because yeah we spent the last 20 minutes talking about investment and building an industry and infrastructure and all those things. Yet then in the second part of that, we're saying, oh, but give the lads, bring the lads up to the camp for a for, uh, let Heimer coach them for a day or whatever. yeah serial box prize kind of thing yeah yeah we we need to we need to view the league as a serious commodity that people could say i see him there he could play at a higher level or he could play in the international team or whatever and that's what i'm saying i don't think there's right now at this moment in time there's one i picked to go in but i definitely think there's a couple of lads playing in the league that you would say eventually or if he keeps going the way he's going or
00:37:58
Speaker
he has the potential to be maybe involved in a squad like what we saw with Jack, Jack Byrne, when Jack was involved in Nick McCarthy squads, he didn't look out of the place. He was actually better than half of them that were in the squad at the time. Unfortunately, Jack has been curtailed now with injuries and he slowly but surely come back to himself. But because he's been so kind of struck down and the move didn't help him that time he went to Cypressider and he kind of dropped down the pecking order then again.
00:38:22
Speaker
and But certainly talent wise, he'd be as good as most, like even Nate was talking there about specialised positions and midfield I think is our biggest problem in the international team. Jack would be technically as good as anything we have in the central midfield. It was interesting that we mentioned the report earlier that came out today about the $100 million that gets invested and into the Irish economy from the League of Ireland.
Economic Role of the League of Ireland
00:38:47
Speaker
And it got me thinking personally about, imagine for five years we went, okay, we take that money and it goes back into the league where that league would be in five years. Like, I i don't see, like I saw it a bit of as a shame when that came out today in terms of like, if that money you got reinvested, like Irish football would be tenfold in my opinion. Yeah. And I think the big thing with that, Nate, how I would view that is.
00:39:13
Speaker
sending that message and and creating that report and putting it out there now for people to see. Again, we're talking about news outlets and social media and everybody can see it. That's what all the other organizations do for their sport. And we've been so slow in doing that. Again, because of the maybe the regime that was there before and because of maybe not forward thinking lads who are in the FBI now maybe that are looking at stuff like that saying, we need to get this message out there. We need to get a report done up.
00:39:41
Speaker
to tell everybody just what we are and who how good we could be and look at the potential that we have because that's when reports are published like that. That's when all of a sudden politicians or government ah people sit up and take note. And that's when you have a stronger case that if you're banging on the door of a politician to go and look for funding and we're looking for huge funding that you can carry a really strong case with you and you're able to plant it on the table in black and white and say, this is what we do. Look what we have and help us.
00:40:09
Speaker
And I think that that's where I feel like in in the in the film industry, that was the thing that made the difference. Like when ah the Irish Film Board was reestablished in 1990 after the Oscar winning of The Crying Game by Michael D. Higgins, it was, oh, let's start it off with tax because it's not out of pocket money. And then five years later, or six years later, they were like, oh, this is actually bringing in yeah seven to eight times what it was ah the outlet technically was.
00:40:34
Speaker
and I think we all can see now 30 years on the health of the Irish film industry so money talks ultimately for for all the all the big guys and hopefully this will be the the start of them starting to realize the value financially but then there's the uncalculable intrinsic value of having your own league and your own sport and your own kind of national pride and identity in that.
00:40:57
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. And that's, that's how I you would view it, you know, because, and as I say, it's, it's getting the message out there, something that we haven't done before. And, and it makes us look professional and credible. And again, that's something that the FBI have been shot down for, and rightly so, on so many occasions before, because it has never looked like that. Whereas when you're publishing reports and working in detailed reports, and you have it in black and white, and there's really substance behind the report,
00:41:23
Speaker
that people can say, okay, fair enough. this is ah This is a serious proposition we have in front of us. Yes, we will invest in it. and That's the only way we're going to get investment rather than just banging on the door saying, for us, help us. you know It doesn't work like that. and That's why maybe we've been caught behind the eight ball with other organizations and that have been better at
Improving Facilities for Growing Attendances
00:41:43
Speaker
doing that. Now, again, going back to my point about and Finally seeing some kind of ah green shoots where this stuff is happening and I can see results coming from this stuff It's great to see and I'm all for it
00:41:56
Speaker
one One final one for me, just you know in in that report we should say, it's a BDO Ireland report, of kind of available everywhere, but one of the main stats for me from the men's game anyway was the increase in attendance, of it was 19 or 20%, and do you think that's down to the the quality of players that are now in the league, or the likes of Damien Duff being back in the league, or what what do you think it or is it just having an it moment?
00:42:21
Speaker
Uh, I think it's probably a result of all those. If you, if you like, Connor, I don't think there's one thing I think off the back of COVID as well. People wanted to get out and see like football again, that helped us ah in a strange way. Then I suppose there's so much money available now in English football as well. And I think people are become a little bit disillusioned with English football as well. That all of a sudden people are, when people were banging the drum back, welcome support your own domestically. Finally, people maybe took it on board and thought, yeah, I'll give it a shot and like what to see.
00:42:50
Speaker
i There's a huge influx of kids being brought to games as well. I think that's a result of the amount of academy teams now that League of Ireland clubs have that all of a sudden there's a focus on bring your kid down as well. He plays with the under 14s, the family or whoever's bringing the kid down to see them play. All these things help.
00:43:08
Speaker
that absolutely Damien Duff and the profile that he has an iconic figure in Irish football to have him at the helm in one of the biggest clubs. 100% the interest in the league at the moment and the brilliant finish that we have. and All these things matter and help. My only gripe with all that is that, yes, we've great attendances and yes, they they're up massively and long may continue. But if we don't improve facilities for these people, they'll soon turn around and say, here, I'm not putting up with this.
00:43:36
Speaker
shitty toilet situations or the bar areas or you want like you we even the rugby example you can go and feel like it's a night out and go with a bit of comfort maybe and have a beer whatever a bite teeth i think we need to get to that level as well but certainly in terms of the attendance has been up it's of course it's positive and brilliant I couldn't say it better myself. Alan, you have a match to watch. We really appreciate the time. Thank you very much. And obviously thanks as ever to Nate and Connor and you the listener. We'll chat to you next week. The only thing I'm disappointed about is the fact that it's taken me so long to bring a Ponder on the Not A Ponder podcast. Well, now I'm going to be a resident pundit every time that you need a pundit, OK? 100%! Any time. OK. We'll be the nutter, you'll be the pundit. Thanks a million. It's been a pleasure. Thanks. Good to see you all, lads. Messi! Messi! Oh, my goodness! Atelier! Aguero! That is extraordinary! What a hit! Right, a hit! Back of the net.