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Hook- Pirateville is a Thriving Community
32 Plays5 months ago
Prepare for an epic battle, and not between Peter Pan and Captain Hook! Ariel loves this movie and holds it very dear, Melinda hates this movie and thinks it's an emotional betrayal of the Peter Pan story. But because we don't shy away from Important Issues, we bring the debate to you. What they can agree on: the costumes are great.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102057/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_4_nm_4_in_0_q_hook
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Hot Set' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to Hot Set. I'm Ariel and this is Melinda with me. Hi. I feel like I'm being very gentle in this introduction because I'm so excited about this stinking movie that we've definitely hinted towards a few times where there is a line and each of us stand on either side. We are
Tribute to Anthony Powell
00:00:44
Speaker
talking today about Steven Spielberg's Hook from 1991 starring Dustin Hoffman and Robin Williams. And a few other people as well. A few others sprinkled in for fun. Goodness. I would just very quickly like to say that this movie was designed by Anthony Powell, who also has designed quite a few things. And I think that he passed away in 2021. But one thing that he um designed that was also super, super
00:01:14
Speaker
ah formative in my life was Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Absolutely. wait And then he also did 101 Dalmatians in 1996. So the Glen Close, 101 Dalmatians and Miss Potter later on in 2006. I haven't seen that one. It seems like kind of a forgotten movie. Yeah, I think it was one of those like, sweet little movies that's like maybe bittersweet something that just kind of. one um But yeah, there's a lot of movies in his movie that I am not that familiar with. We also did do 1978's Death on the Nile.
00:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, one of his one of his three Oscar wins for costume design. Shoot. Oh, wait, he also did
Debate: Costumes in 'Hook'
00:02:06
Speaker
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Yeah, both. An Ishtar? Which I've never seen Ishtar. I just know about Ishtar. Right. And the details are not that forefront in my mind. But like, that's all I i know about it. But I've never seen it. walk Well, cool. Thank you Anthony Powell for your work on this film.
00:02:27
Speaker
From me, maybe Melinda would like to ah say some other words. We'll find out. we will i I will say costume-wise, purely costume design, I do think that the costumes were good. There's a couple things where I'm like, I don't know. But generally, Anthony, your work, very nice. Beautiful. Good job. Almost like you are an expert and know what you're doing. I feel like I might be hysterical. but
00:02:57
Speaker
You turned into, like, a sports comment. Like, you know what? I respect his game. And he's put in the time. And you can't argue that. He would not be my draft pick. None of this would be my pick.
00:03:13
Speaker
I just want you, dear listeners, to know that right before Melinda hit record, she said, I want you to pick something from her list that you hate. And then we can cover that. I think it's only fair, and I think that everyone would agree with me. Oh.
00:03:34
Speaker
Arrogant for you.
00:03:38
Speaker
Oh my goodness, I'm so excited. Okay. I don't even know where to begin. um I guess I'll set the stage with how I... Please do. Please do. So I can't remember if we've talked about this on another episode or not, or if it was just between us, but my husband Phil and I discovered a little while ago through listening to some other podcast or something that there's like a group of people ah messed up, incorrect group of people. who hate this movie. Can I go beyond their podcast? Can I just... You sit down, you.
00:04:15
Speaker
And I even broke the subject with a friend of mine, Fiona, the other day. And I just casually mentioned that an upcoming episode was this movie and that you had very strong negative feelings about it. And her face was priceless because it mirrored my own when you told me the same thing. And she just said, hate? How could you hate it? And like, did it do something to you? We will find out in this episode. But I
Ariel and Melinda's Personal Connections to 'Hook'
00:04:44
Speaker
genuinely love this movie and I was actually a few minutes late to this recording because I was finishing it and I was really emotional about Peter leaving Neverland. ah I love this movie for very many reasons and um one of them is that it Robin Williams.
00:05:03
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Dustin Hoffman, boom. Slam dunk. Bob Hoskins, boom. Beautiful. Maggie Smith, Legrand Dom herself. RIP. There's just like so many incredible actors in this. I love it. There's also the music of John Williams, which is like super magical from our childhood. Like John Williams just like nailed so many different, uh,
00:05:25
Speaker
some cinematic scores. yeah And there's a bittersweetness to this movie. And what it means to me, not just as like, oh, I love it because fantastical, whatever. Yes, I was obsessed with Peter Pan as a kid. My seventh birthday was, yes, Peter Pan theme. Was I an asshole on that day? I was.
00:05:44
Speaker
I was dressed as Wendy and my mother made me a kiss necklace with an acorn on a chain that I still have because it was one of my most prized possessions. And my cake was a crocodile it was ah at the Pizza Hut in town.
00:06:03
Speaker
or it was the Pizza Hut that like became a round table that might've become a Pizza Hut again. I don't remember, but it was like a little- A pizza restaurant. Pizza restaurant that had a room in the back and it looked kind of like a little cottage. It was like a cottage. That's so cute. It was like a weird little thing. I just remember like loving the story of Peter Pan in any shape or form that it would be given to me. Like I just, I don't remember.
00:06:27
Speaker
But there is a sadness that undercuts this film, this yeah story, because it's, you know, Peter Pan, when he's an adult, he decided to stop being a child and he wanted to grow up and become a father. And then he forgets who he was and he has to remember so that he can save his kids. And spoiler alert. um And I just like love the performances that Justin Hoffman and Robin Williams bring to this so much because it's like this man who's just totally lost touch with anything that he really loves. like He's so
The Legacy of Robin Williams
00:07:02
Speaker
fixated on becoming a grown-up that he, in in our modern view, has kind of become a pirate, which is what grownups do in Neverland. oh yeah
00:07:13
Speaker
And he has to remember the things about himself. The joy, the wonder. The joy, the wonder, all the things. Imagination. Exactly. So it's kind of a film about like, it's okay to hold onto those things and grow up. Like it's okay to love the things that you love throughout your life. And you don't have to, there doesn't have to be this door that's shut between you being a child and you being an adult. And I felt that even when I was little and like not long after this,
00:07:43
Speaker
I don't remember what year it is, but not long after this is like Jumanji, like yeah Aladdin. This is the time when we were all Robin Williams' is children in a way. Like he really did touch all of our hearts and all of our lives in this like magical, magical way. And it wasn't always purely like, oh, oh, oh, fart jokes. It was like... Right. He there's really yeah he had a range. Yeah, a range where it's like something that has lasted with a lot of us for a very, very long time.
00:08:13
Speaker
I was taken aback. Phil was taken aback when we discovered that not only did a hook shape people in a positive way, it shaped them in a negative way so that they could recognize their nemesis when they see them on the street. And this is our street. And I'd like to shout across the lanes and go, hey you, Melinda, what's your deal with this movie?
00:08:35
Speaker
now that you can speak this crazy faction that hates it so much. but So I was looking for some backup today on my hatred of this movie and everything that I was finding online was just people being like I don't know why people hate this movie I love it so much and like but I was like I wanted to read other people.
00:08:56
Speaker
who didn't like it to know if they didn't like it for the reasons that I don't like it and didn't like it as a kid. um and I couldn't find that. Someone please tell me where to go. I'm curious because I'm not saying that I'm right, which obviously I am right, but I'm not. Neither am I saying that you're right.
00:09:16
Speaker
but that i know I know in my heart that I'm right, so I don't have to say it because it's just like so so fundamentally there. But I don't think that I would, I don't necessarily assume that other people who don't like the movie feel the same way about it as I do. I would be curious to
Criticism of 'Hook' and Peter Pan's Story
00:09:36
Speaker
like read other people's opinions to know like what what turned them off about the movie and you know what it is for me. so i also Just so you know, I have muted myself so that you could have the space to speak. Oh my God. I don't want you to feel censored. This is a First Amendment friendly podcast.
00:10:00
Speaker
No, no, no, no, no. this is ah I know that my mouth is large and runs fast and I am choosing to be, I hope, a good friend and podcast partner and giving you the space that you should have.
00:10:15
Speaker
Okay. Well, I do want to start by saying that I also absolutely love Peter Pan. It was one of my favorite stories as a little kid. um I was particularly enamored with the animated Disney movie, despite its many flaws, which I was a little happy. We're kind of sidestepped a bit in this production.
00:10:40
Speaker
Casually mention them around that problem. just yeah well That actually was kind of nice. So put one put that one on the column of pros for hook.
00:10:55
Speaker
No, but i I really, really love Peter Pan. um I love the story. And I think what I found so off-putting about the movie as a kid is the loss of of Peter's essence. And I think it's a testament to Robin Williams' performance that I hated his character so much. And the way that he had become sort of the villain of the story is the way that so many people in real life become the villain in someone else's story by like emotionally neglecting his children and becoming someone who is just obsessed with winning in this creepy corporate
00:11:45
Speaker
world and becoming like a creepy like mergers and acquisitions lawyer, which like even as a kid, you you know that that's like slimy and like gross. like You know that it's bad even if you don't know what it means. and I think that what bothered me so much is that that is what happens to a lot of people.
00:12:06
Speaker
But we were the age of the kids watching the movie. So you can only watch it from their point of view. Yeah, when you're that same age as like Maggie in the movie, you watch it from Maggie's point of view. And her point of view is that she has this neglectful father that she doesn't even really believe loves her at all.
00:12:31
Speaker
And like that is true for a lot of people. like They have terrible relationships with their parents, and and their parents don't go to Neverland and rediscover their child-like wonder, imagination, joy, happiness, kindness. like That doesn't happen. That part doesn't happen in real life for people.
00:12:53
Speaker
and It was also fascinating watching it again as an adult and like watching the scenes with Jack and Captain Hook where he is emotionally manipulating him. and It's like, well, of course he is because it's so easy to like poison the mind of someone that doesn't have like a father to to like give them that stability. you
Themes of Time, Aging, and Goodbye in 'Hook'
00:13:20
Speaker
know It's one thing to you know to have people don't need like a perfect heteronuclear family to be good, happy, stable, successful people. But like he knows that his dad doesn't really prioritize him and care about him, but his dad is still in his life. And so it made him really, really easy to manipulate by Captain Hook. And it's like, yes, that happens to people all the time. So I think it just really bothered me that that Peter is like the villain of the story. And
00:13:48
Speaker
Watching it again didn't really fix that for me because that is what happens in the movie. like it's you know my My problem with it is so is plot-based and is story-based, and it just makes me sad. It's mostly just that. It just makes me sad to have Peter be the villain of the story. I totally was not expecting to say this, but I respect that. Oh! We can keep recording the podcast!
00:14:18
Speaker
I respect that. I really do. And that's like a really, I think, more thought out rundown than most people who talk about this movie that I've seen or against it. So what what I will get to costumes. Jesus. That's not the focus this But like I.
00:14:38
Speaker
part of why I love this movie is because of everything that you said. yeah Because this is from an era that I don't think we really have anymore where real family movies existed. The family movies that we have now are kind of like the family movies the way that like you know, is it was it Tipper Gore who wanted to who like the MP like for the yeah the rating system and music and was like, yeah this is inappropriate. Like that's I feel how we have family movies now where they have to be so yes, sanitized and so childlike. And then sometimes they have like really weird shit. Yeah. like
00:15:19
Speaker
They don't have like a middle ground, I feel. I also do not have children, so I can totally. No, no, right. But like when we were growing up, us ah millennials, yeah we we were growing up with older stuff and almost like a Victorian mindset, not a Victorian mindset in like a prudishness, but in a we have to learn that people die. We have to learn that people do bad things. We have to learn about sadness. And so there was so much in our childhood and also those people who came before us, but like ours, in our generation, we were given magic and it wasn't just the sadness and look at our real world, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It was a try you.
00:16:13
Speaker
And like Falcor, like all the sinking in the swamp of sadness and in the never ending story. It was this. It was so many other movies that like taught us about bitter sweetness.
00:16:28
Speaker
and that we can watch something that has magic, that has that sweetness and that light that also leaves us thinking about it at the end because it's not perfect. And this is one of those things where it's like, yes, just like you said, this does reflect a reality for a lot of folks. And the reality, even if it's not just an emotionally unavailable parent, it's a parent who's flawed.
00:16:52
Speaker
yeah And so what this showed me as a kid is that families don't, and other other movies, even Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, they have like parents who aren't perfect parents. But like in this one, it was about the emotional side of it. And it's kind of to explain to children,
00:17:10
Speaker
that sometimes you shut something off and sometimes you shut that off because it causes you pain and because you think that you're becoming something better. And in Peter Pan's case, he had run away when in this version, he had run away as an infant, like basically magically called up the wind so that the wind could push his pram away from his parents when he heard about the plan for when he was an adult.
00:17:35
Speaker
And he basically ended up following that plan anyway. yeah But when he like goes away and becomes the pan and like lives that experience for a really long time, he looks in the window and he realizes that he wants to give what he didn't have. And I can tell you from my own reality,
00:17:52
Speaker
That was how my mother was. She wanted to give what she did not receive. So I could see that in the adults around me who were trying to live that way, which was by being present or being the parent that they thought that they could be. And maybe in this Peter's version, it was financial stability and they forgot about everything else. yeah And thank God for his wife for providing emotional stability. 100%. And it's also like his experience with families was through a window. So like he just saw a picture and the picture he saw was like a mother reading stories to the children and maybe the father would be home at night. But it's like if he peeked in a window during the daytime, he wouldn't see the father because the father was at work. So that's like, also this is because of the time in which he was Peter Pan, which was like,
00:18:43
Speaker
in the Victorian yeah ed warrenian era. And so there are all these things that like feed into it, but it just felt like this story is so, I feel like one of the reasons too that Robin Williams chose to take the role is because it's not perfect and because an adult can watch this.
00:19:00
Speaker
and remember something about themselves, that there is a magic that they cared about. And they can look at this movie and go, oh yeah, my kids can see me. They can see all of me. And they can sit on a couch with their children who are also watching this go, I see my parents do that and I feel that way. And my parents, I guess have more in them than I know.
00:19:24
Speaker
and then it's of course in reality it's up to those human beings to take whateverever lesson they choose and apply it In this reality of the movie, he does go on this journey to remember who he was, which was this like magical young man who believed in in living life and like loving everything around him, because he even loved fighting Captain Hook. like yeah One of the biggest things about the character of Peter Pan is that he loved that fight. He loves to have more. It's like an archetype. And so i I love that bitter sweetness because like I walk away from this and I'm just like like knowing too that he's leaving behind these young boys who are going to carry on the tradition of a pan of there being this like loving family of lost boys who remember each other when they leave but like still continue the fight because that's
00:20:24
Speaker
their version of being you know free and being yeah children. And I just like, yeah, we'll talk about costumes. But i do I do want to give you your flowers for having an actual, what I think is a real reason to to have issue with the plot. um Well, I think it's interesting because I think that that we both see the same thing in the movie and it just hits us differently. yeah But it's like, that's why I want to know why other people don't like it, if it's for the same reason or if it's for different reasons. Because it's like, I respect this one. This one is like, no, it's too real. In a way where it's like, it's too real. And it's also like a favorite fairy tale. It's like, no. oh
00:21:18
Speaker
I think there's something so poignantly 90s about like a parent who won't leave their cell phone alone over their family, which is bizarre because that has only become more true. Yeah. and like My note here, the second note that I put down, when cell phones weren't common,
00:21:40
Speaker
Yes. And that was like like having one was just like immediately this person sucks. This person is the worst person who's addicted to business. like So shitty. And like, okay, so let's get into it. So yeah, yeah he's he's answering that phone like during his daughter's school play and it's your pin that they're doing in the school play. And I wished as a kid that we had school plays like that. Oh my God. We did not do No, we didn't do one school play at my school. But these kids have these little costumes that we then see a different version of twice because we see the flashbacks of Peter Pan's youth where we see um Wendy when she's young and then Moira with a jump scare.
00:22:28
Speaker
but government character but it's not true So we see these like frilly nightgowns like a few times. Yeah. And also little little Maggie herself is wearing a nightgown for most of the movie. Yes. And then we see they are victorian looks very Victorian. It have been intentional. Okay, we're gonna Just a quick little continue, and then we're going to get right back to night, Gals. We feel like this little- Right. I know. But I did really love that the school play, everything in it looked like what an actual school play would look like in terms of the type of clothing, the type of the set. Oh, it looked like parents helped the kids put it on. It was very cute. It felt like a school play, and I just love the metaness of it, and that it really did feel like the parents are sitting on really uncomfortable fucking chairs. They're hating being there.
00:23:15
Speaker
But they're also like, that's my kid. And yeah, for him to to answer that fucking call, it was just like, you absolute stir. But OK, night nightgown aside, yeah we're the same age. am Am I going to talk about this the whole series? Of course. Do you remember, because this feeds into it, that there was a chunk in the 90s where Victorian nightgowns were a big deal. Absolutely. Thank you. I didn't have one. I didn't have one. I did get one. It was very amazing. My mom gave me. It's all coded. Yeah. Because my mom for Christmas gave me, she bought one of those Samantha Victorian nightgowns and I wore that thing forever. I loved it so much. There was just something about Victorian frill.
00:24:08
Speaker
and like a secret garden, a little princess, like all these things were happening where it was like, I need that. Like every other episode now, I'm not, we're not gonna do like a faithful retelling of the whole movie. I think we're just gonna spot jump. Because like the first part of the movie is just boring, like regular. It's just regular life. It's just regular life stuff. Except like when when Peter Banning,
00:24:34
Speaker
banning you guys not pan banning ah when think about pan so when he is in his corporate monster element like and he's missing his son's game he is wearing they're like saying goodbye to him as he's leaving basically after the game has ended And he's wearing this ball cap that's one of those squishy ball caps from the 90s that has the mesh back. And it's super bright blue, so it looks like he's never worn it before in his life. And he's got a cell phone holster. And I was like, everything about this is so 90s corporate. Look at this like, maverick with his spotted tie and his striped shirt. That guy's crazy. Every single person in that office was wearing gray. Yes. Gray and brown. Gray and brown. And they were also just deeply the dorkiest people. So dorky. There was a dress that actually might have been kind of green on one of the ladies who's walking towards him as he's going into the elevator. And I was like, that dress, I want to talk about. I want to... It's like a dinner dress, but at the same time also totally suited for a corporate workplace at that time. But it's also just like, that must be the worst polyester in the world. I'm mad at you for wearing it. I hate that it exists. It offends me deeply. It's like everything about the corporate space that we see in this is tailored for children to learn that it's bad. Bad. Bad. This is where souls go to die. I was also really obsessed with those baseball caps because like Jack has one their mom Moira has one on and they they're all just like Huge like they're so big so massive. Nobody adjusted the back because they didn't want to crush their hair. They're genuinely 90s hair. It was know it I And it was just like, I felt like, were these custom made, like they're, it was just the bill of the hat was like extra long. They had no logo. The thing is, that's what they were like. I had a hat like this when I was on a baseball team and it was like, it was before these hats, like basically trucker hat ball caps became like cool. Fashion. They were these massive duck bills that were like actually meant to cast shade.
00:27:09
Speaker
And they were so stupid. Like there was no looking cool in them. It was like, um like Smalls from Sandlot and lot in his weird fishing hat. Like it was just, you're just like, just like I hate this hat. It just doesn't sit naturally on anybody in this movie. And um it was wild. So um I'm going to be, and I made a note specifically to mention it this way.
00:27:33
Speaker
I'm going to be the the Lord of the Rings fan, who always has to sit through the Lord of the Rings two towers, and always at the right time has to go, did you know that Vigod Mortensen actually did break his toe when he kicked the helmet at the edge of Fangorn? Because somebody has to be that guy. so Yeah, and I'm that guy. Just me. First little tidbit.
00:27:54
Speaker
When the family is on the plane on their way to England to see J Maggie Smith, i.e. Wendy Darling herself, there is an announcement by the captain about, like, please stay seated, etc. Did you notice anything about that?
00:28:10
Speaker
You know, I did not. I read about it later, but I did not pick it up in the moment. It's Dustin Hoffman. He is the captain of the plane. And I thought that was a great detail that I have not noticed once before in my life. know Did you you hurt when you heard it, you could tell I heard it and I was like, wait a second. Oh, my God. If only we'd gotten ah in an in the distance shot of Dustin Hoffman as an airplane captain. turning around his shoulder, just like winking at the camera. yeah and but That long wig.
00:28:46
Speaker
i'm We have to talk about that wig. We are so getting there. So we see the London everything. I loved Liza and God, why am I already forgetting his name? Toodles. Toodles.
00:29:01
Speaker
because they feel like they're dressed in kind of a stereotype of what we think older country folk in the UK are like, which is just like comfy sweaters. you know they're They're basically like the real world equivalent of a hobbit where they're not wearing bodices and and that they are wearing vests.
00:29:20
Speaker
but like they're wearing the layers to be cozy and so warm and talking about tea and marbles you know just like so like we're hitting that and then we also have this like amazing amazing performance by Maggie Smith where she has so much age makeup on like so much and it was kind of it was kind of wild like I didn't remember what her face looked like yeah and I was like okay but like they kind of got it in terms of what she's gonna look like when she's older. Yeah the style of makeup that they did could have been that like this is also me being ignorant because makeup is not my department but like there is that technique that again they used in Lord of the Rings Two Towers.
00:30:07
Speaker
uh the Asian makeup where it's essentially like a ah glue on your face and like you make extreme expressions and then they heat it to set it and you relax your face and it keeps all these micro wrinkles yeah and it's like they did that and that one is really great for film and I say glue but it's really like I mean, I don't know what it's made of, so glue sounds fine. We're not talking about makeup. But the makeup on this movie was great. And that was one of the first ones that just like really stands out because Maggie Smith was not that old when this movie came out. Oh, and like 50 some Yeah, she was in her fifties and like she looks the way that she ended up looking like into the 2020s. Yeah. And so it was kind of weird to see a little disconcerting. But she has this like incredible style to her where she just has this like regal elegance and everything that she's wearing.
00:31:00
Speaker
and they're going to this like award ceremony and she's dressed kind of like sort of like an early 1920s. She really was like they really played up. She really was dressed like Mrs. Darling like she really and that was such an interesting choice because I was like okay they definitely did that on purpose but like and you kind of get it because just of what the movie is but and i was also acutely aware on this watch that that robin williams was dressed like mr darling yeah and he is the archetype of mr victorian husband yeah and like in his evening wear which i love that he's wearing this evening wear almost the entire movie yeah and i love the
00:31:49
Speaker
the arc of the evening wear, because it's like, he's being beaten up in it. He's getting so dirty in it. It kind of almost becomes like pirate-like at one point, because yeah like it's like a button-up shirt and yeah like a tux shirt. Oh, it's just getting like beat to hell. The red suspenders were an unexpected detail for that, that I was sort of like, I feel like it's sort of like a hint or a foreshadow, but like not something I would expect to be yeah that item to be the hint or the foreshadow. So that was kind of like, oh, like i I was very aware of them. Yeah.
00:32:28
Speaker
I liked it. It was like one of the only ones that made sense because like if if they had done something else, it would be like a cummerbund and like, what are you going to do? Keep that on forever. and or like red buttons right evening yeah you know suit and so I like loved that I just loved these like little hints to tie him to hook that he has grown to be his own enemy he kept doing the Peter Pan pose he did and when Maggie Smith like holds up the Peter Pan book
00:32:59
Speaker
And he's like, this is you, Peter. And he's like, he's got the stance that he drops his arms and he's like. And I just like, loved that interplay so much where he's like, grandma. She's like, well, the first love.
00:33:15
Speaker
How, yeah, how would you feel if your like fantastical mythical like adolescent boyfriend married your granddaughter? I would have so many, I think I would have all the same feelings that ah Wendy Darling had where she was like, well, on my wedding day, I hoped that you would.
00:33:35
Speaker
Come back and marry me. I'm also like, Wendy, you got married in your late teens, maybe 20, 21, 22. And Peter was 12. I mean, she was also 12 when she met him. But if he was still 12. I know he would still be 12. Listen, I'm not saying it makes sense. She erupted at her wedding. I don't know.
00:33:58
Speaker
You know, like I don't, I don't think so. I just think it's, I just emotionally, I'm, I guess you, because he's an eternal creature, but at the same time, like, but he is a child. That's that kind of his whole thing is this thing. Yeah. And you're, you've, you've, you've gone past it.
00:34:14
Speaker
little bit so sorry I just think it's kind of not cool on his part to marry her granddaughter. Oh, no, I think it's super messed up. And it's also like that's the the heartbreaking part, right? Is that that's like what people talk about with the actual book of Peter Pan yeah is that he's a cruel child. Yes.
00:34:32
Speaker
You love him and it's the cruelty of children. You love them. And until they reach an emotional place of maturity where they can discover how to communicate, how they feel about things, you feel like you love them more than they love you. right Because you don't know. And like Peter Pan,
00:34:52
Speaker
loves the lost boys. He loves his life. He loves these things, but he also loves being free and being eternal and not being attached to anything beyond being the pan. That's the heartbreak for Wendy is that she leaves and he forgets and he forgets her and everything that she learned from him and from that world.
00:35:13
Speaker
doesn't mean anything to him anymore beyond basically a fairy story of his own. It is that cruelty. And I think that it's something that you'd have to like war with and be very deeply aware of how painful that is. But could you imagine being a therapist and having a client feel like my eternal first love is now marrying my granddaughter. Oh, my granddaughter, Gwyneth Paltrow, Peter Pan, just like this.
00:35:44
Speaker
Like in that way you think that that would you know make me more empathetic to this movie because the character of Peter Pan is kind of cruel and is not like full of kindness and whatever but I feel like especially the Disney version kind of downplays that aspect of him. It does, because it removes that Victorian part of it from when J.M. Berry was writing it, which is about that. It just lets it be an adventure for children. Just magical. Later you grow up and you go, but wait, what happens? Because if he stays young and everybody else keeps growing up, what happens? And then you have to think about what does that mean for everyone else.
00:36:27
Speaker
yeah And so this is that exploration. What does it mean? I do think it's interesting that Steven Spielberg doesn't really like this movie in retrospect. Interesting. Or me or maybe he's, or I don't know, he's said at various points that he doesn't like this movie. And I think at various points he said that he's not like he's going back and forth about whether he likes the movie or not. It seems like he did not enjoy the process. So I think that always colors your opinion of a project afterwards. Are you kidding? Okay, let's do a quick hopscotch. he's like I was debating whether or not to mention this. I didn't even put it in my notes, but there is a point.
00:37:12
Speaker
Okay, Smee is the best assistant that anybody could ever ask for. It's absolutely true. Dustin Hoffman has the the best, I love his performance of Hook here, because there are hooks that we see that are really cold, that are one dimensional, that are like super calculating and that's it. And in this one, he is those things, but he's also super dramatic, melodramatic.
00:37:38
Speaker
up operatic in his drama and has anxiety issues. He's a messy bitch who lives for the drama. He's a messy bitch who lives for the drama. And I was like, maybe I've already talked about this too much with Sauron, but he's basically the Sauron of this movie where he's like, gaslight, gatekeep, girl boss. He's just like, what is it? And he emotionally manipulates everybody. He has this speech to a ship full of pirates and he's like,
00:38:08
Speaker
Oh, there's one of you who doesn't belong here, isn't there? And like there's a pirate sitting next to Peter who's like, ah is it me or is it you? And it turns out to be that pirate. Do you know anything about that pirate, Melinda? I do now. Great. It's Glenn Close, everybody. It's Glenn Close. and She looks incredible. She looks incredible.
00:38:29
Speaker
and like Even as a kid, there's something about her voice that like makes you go, this is familiar, but not. yeah But the prosthetics, the wig, that yeah the costuming for her is like so fucking great. And then she gets shoved into the boo box to be killed by scorpions. So me in the o he's mean. mean. They're mean pirates, but they're also very brightly dressed pirates. like I think that the Glenn Close one was the most muted out of all of them because there's like a warm earth tone thing happening but then there's like bright blues and like yellows and crimson yeah a lot of crimson and there's a scene okay this is where I was heading I'm so sorry future editing Melinda but uh I can't leave it the way it is there's a scene later where Hook is like well
00:39:20
Speaker
I'm ready to die. He's like, I guess I'm just, don't try to stop me. Don't try to stop me. Don't try to stop me. Try to stop me. It's me. Why aren't you trying to stop me? And I was like this and Smee is like across the room just going like, just watching. And he's like, why aren't you trying to stop me? I just like that whole scene. I was like, this feels like backstage. This feels like a production process that you could pull from this and see somebody who's like having an emotional meltdown at a certain part of production and is just like struggling and I mean all of us have been through it like at different levels right where the stress gets to you and you start to just like lose it you're just like sometimes it goes not all of us but sometimes it goes into a direction where you're just like
00:40:11
Speaker
everything's on fire and everyone is on fire and then you're like well i guess i'm just a bad guy and like we've all seen that yeah Your assistant is the one who has to put out all the fires and also also go, you're not the bad guy. You're okay. Pat, pat that on the back. You're doing great, sweetie. Do you need some water? Do you need a snack? Are you okay? And like, I feel like we've all been in that place emotionally and um on any side of it and yeah again, to differing degrees. But I was like, you could blow that out and just put that as any workplace.
00:40:41
Speaker
and just be like, oh, Smee, this job is not OSHA compliant. It's also like, where's HR? You're HR. Uh-oh. I think that cannon over there is HR. And so I was just like, oh, I can't talk about that because that's ridiculous, but here I am talking about it anyway. Okay, so freaking Dustin Hoffman. Oh my God. Captain Hook is in this incredible, incredible crimson get up with black tights. And I liked the black tights, by the way, because usually when you see Captain Hook animated or otherwise, white. Always white. Always. Alice in Wonderland has become canonically blue dress because of Disney, and it feels like it's the same thing. It's amazing how that stuff happens. Yeah, and it's so pointless. I don't get it. One makes sense. Why does it have to be all of them? I don't get that. But with this one, I liked that he had his little black tights.
00:41:39
Speaker
and all the gold everywhere, and this giant right wig. And he is basically dressed, is it like late 15th, no late 16th century, early 17th century? I looked up what king it was that his hair exactly is, and it's Charles II who became the king in the early 1600s. The Reformation is essentially what we're looking like, yeah and I I love that period and I think it comes down to this because I did in college a design for the misanthrope. The 80s pop culture meets the reformation because you look at those two periods and they're actually really not that far apart. It's it's crazy. So yeah, he's got this like,
00:42:28
Speaker
Glorious and glowing. What do you call the wigs? There's a name for the wigs. I know this is not right, but the little like poof on the two little twin poofs on the top always make me think of like cat ears. Yes. A little Wolverine. Beautiful flowing black collarbone length locks of just this all these messy curls. I actually don't know what those specific wigs are called.
00:42:56
Speaker
Parawigs, they're called parawigs. And so he's wearing a parawig, a really, really long, curly wig. but so so much it's so There's so much camp to it because it's like with every motion, there's frilly lace everywhere. His cuffs are frilly lace. And this is a thing that I love about the Reformation period is that it's also a period where Now today in fashion, we have very gendered colors and there were very gendered colors throughout history as well. But pink is now very coded Barbie girl. Blue is very masculine boy. boy boy boy And back then.
00:43:35
Speaker
blue was feminine, pink was masculine. And so that was also the time where heels heels were made for men. Heels were made for men to feel taller yep and later became a part of women's wear. But like in this period, men are wearing heeled shoes. They have excesses of lace everywhere.
00:43:57
Speaker
the periwigs. They have all of these things. Satins and silks and gold. And of course we're talking about very, very wealthy folk. Literally like the 1%. I mean, people would get robbed for their lace. That's how much lace was worth.
00:44:16
Speaker
But I just like love the the overall camp of it. While we're not talking about actual historical ah ramifications of it, we're talking about just just the captain hook being dressed in this period is so great because he's like whipping that hook around so dramatically with like the cuffs. And he always has like a different hook for a different day. And just like everything is so precise and like a handkerchief, I'm sure. it's in there. Like I just, uh, chef kiss and their performance with the, the, the very specific mustache. Like and then the like the reveal at the end, the vulnerability. yeah And I love the moment where he says,
00:45:03
Speaker
Give me my dignity and he hands the wig back to him because it's like the image. The image is so much of it. Yeah. The image is is everything. And it's like yet another commentary on, you know, growing into adulthood is like.
00:45:19
Speaker
trying to hide the aging to keep like the sense of virility and the fight and all of these things. And he's just like, and even if it's just posturing, it's like super important. And it's super important that the the boys in Neverland never feel empathy for the pirates and that the pirates never see the boys as humans, like only basically prey or pests. And so like having this moment,
00:45:45
Speaker
where you can see that and Captain Hook putting word to it to be like, stop it. Give me my my image back. It's just like, not yeah I just, I love that. I love that writing and everything. But it's also like they gave him this just like little white balding head. little wispy hair. Little wisps of hair.
00:46:09
Speaker
um Oh, okay. So another ah Lord of the Rings, Fangorn Forest, a trivia little thing for you is that um when the kids are stolen, kidnapped by the pirates, the pirates that we we haven't seen yet at that point in the movie, the cop who comes in yeah to investigate, Phil Collins. That is such a weird detail. There are so many people in this movie that are just like in there for, it was it like Jimmy Buffett? No, there's like a bunch of random people. Yeah. like
00:46:39
Speaker
Okay. know Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love it. But okay, Tinkerbell. We have not mentioned Julia Roberts in this movie, Powerhouse. She was like, even heading towards the height of Julia Roberts. She hadn't done Erin Brockovich yet. Yeah. and um Hadn't done my best friend's wedding yet. Hadn't done my best friend's wedding. Isn't that crazy? Like she's so Needle. And I have to say, I love her costume for Tink in this one. I'm gonna respectfully disagree with you on that one. That's totally okay. What I love about it is that there's two things. One is that she looks like a dried autumn leaf. um And the other one is that she is matching Peter Pan. Because later on when we see him return to his Peter Pan-ness at the end of the movie, he's wearing exactly the same costume but in green. And I also did like
00:47:32
Speaker
I know, like I get the the cut, the fit, I get that. But I also- The materials, I disagreed with the material too. I can see that because like there's also, i I think that if it were done now, there would be more layers, more color, more painting, more texture, there would be more going on and I would root for that. But I think I just was so relieved to see this female character not in a miniskirt. Sexualized. And not sexualized that she was like,
00:47:58
Speaker
another little feral creature and that she does look like a little leaf. I was like, I love those things, but I do, I can give way to to critique being ah in existence. i i didn't I didn't disagree with the idea of the costume. I just yeah i felt like it was a little plain. um I felt like there could have been more happening there, especially because the Lost Boys are so layered and they have like they have the the remnants of their like real world clothes, but they've been augmented, they're distressed, they've incorporated natural
00:48:41
Speaker
things from their environment into their clothes like feathers leaves grass so much texture when we're in London and when we're yeah with the Lost Boys and when we're with the Pirates the Pirates have so much going on so much I would love to know why there was not as much going on with Peter's archetypal costume and with tanks yeah because I do agree with all of that. There's just not enough. There's not enough texture. There's not enough anything. It just feels like an introductory costume project where here learn how to make a shirt, learn how to make shorts yeah out of like a stretchy cut, like a cotton. Here's how you make an elastic waistband and here you go.
00:49:18
Speaker
ah And then like let's put it in a dye pot so that it looks a little bit like it got beaten about with a couple of colors. So it's not just straight brown. And in his case, like i know like I think but both their costumes are made of suede, right? Yeah. And yeah because um and like his had suede cut out leaves and I'm like, just put real leaves.
00:49:38
Speaker
I mean, that also like on top of the suede cutouts, I would love like the layering of that because we do see that they can do that with the armor yeah that the Lost Boys have, which was so great. That was like an explosion that you don't like. I mean, of course, I love we've seen this before, but like you don't expect it as like a first time viewer to like have all this stuff happen. It's almost like samurai armor made out of like bamboo yeah rolls down like buttons and then one cut out.
00:50:08
Speaker
Yeah, it was great. It's so cool. And it's like all made out of stuff that's around them. And it's really, really... So it was like just continue that. I know. Especially since like Tinkerbell is only of Neverland. Like she doesn't... There's no other existence here. And Peter, even though he ah you know started out as like a baby in the real world, he is of Neverland. So you don't even have to have like a base of real clothing for them. No, you can totally use the things around you. just totally
00:50:44
Speaker
found art objects. I wonder if that's a little bit of the reasoning for why they didn't do more. Why they went the other direction. Yeah, because when when Tink is in the dollhouse and she's trying to convince Peter to to like fly, let's get to Neverland, let's beat Hook's ass and get your kids. Yeah. She's laying down pretending to be dead. And you can see like this exaggerated stitching.
00:51:06
Speaker
on the side scenes. Yeah it's like turquoise. Yeah and so like you see these things and you could you can almost then take the intellectual leap that their argument would be everybody else has all this stuff going on because they brought it from somewhere else. Could be. But but we do see the armor that the kids make, which is super ingenious with stuff that's all around them. We do see mermaids. And those mermaids are some of the best mermaids I feel like we've ever seen in film. I love them. They're so stunningly beautiful, like their wigs, the makeup. I've always loved the mermaids in Peter Pan because they're so mean. They're just so mean. Yeah, they're terrible and petty and all of these things and I love them. like me. That's why I feel kinship to the mermaids. But they're just like so magical. And they're kind of our first
00:51:59
Speaker
vision. They really are. Neverland. Yeah, we don't get to spend much time with them. No, it's just like a little blink and you really want more. And um so they're like super saturated and wonderful and beautiful. And then we get, yeah, the the the lost boys with their ingenuity. So yeah, I can also agree with you that that Tink's costume and ah Peter's costumes are a letdown compared to everything else. I like them as a beginning.
00:52:24
Speaker
I like yeah and like the idea that Tink is wearing shorts, so it's utilitarian, and I like that it's not sexualized, and I like that she is matching Peter because they're both yeah like kind of a heart of Neverland. yeah like there's just something They could have both just been made of leaves, like yeah could have like because that's kind of where they were going. so it's like it's It's like a beginning if they had pushed it.
00:52:49
Speaker
and just gone way further than it would have been far better because the the level of costumes that everybody else has is so great. And I also was like, the last boys are basically the newsies of... They really, really are. like they're just I was obsessed with the twins that were dressed like Boy Scouts. I know. I was like, did they get lost on a camping trip? That's what I'm getting from them. They're like Roosevelt era. Yeah.
00:53:16
Speaker
Boy Scouts. And it's just like, yeah, it seems like they got lost and carried away in Neverland. Right? Like there's a search party looking for them in the forest, like a jamboree and they're just gone. They're just off, off in the stars. Oh my God. I think that this is where, this is one of the many movies with costumes where I fell in love with layering and texture and where I also fell in love with fantasy not necessarily looking like what you expect it to look like. Sure. Because like when people think of fantastical or fantasy things, they think high fantasy, they think elves, they think armor, they think of very like English, like based on yeah, like based on the Middle Ages for some reason. Like there's a very
00:54:06
Speaker
tight imagined thing. To me, this is like, no, you can make fantasy out of anything because like these kids have been plucked from a life and there's no reason for it that we're ever given, but they just live forever in this fantastical place wearing these clothes that came from the world with them.
00:54:26
Speaker
And yet they're repairing them or altering them through time sometimes with some things that exist in the world that they're in now. and So it's like, you can take anything and you can age it, you can dye it, you can mix it with something you're not expecting it to be with.
00:54:42
Speaker
And then there we go. Boom. Something that doesn't exist for real in the world that we know, that has elevated it to a place where it is fantasy. Like those pirates are all pirates who are, let's be real, their costumes have been distressed to a point. They look like they've been sweat in. They look like they've been dunked in seawater, but they're also like ridiculously clean because they really are so saturated and so bright. And like some of those whites are like pretty crisp linen. And so it's like, there's something there that's not reality. And it's subtle enough that there's just so much of it. That's what makes you realize that it's there. And I just like- It's like what you want. It's like a pirate, it's like the ride pirate from the Caribbean. Thank you. Yes. Because this, this to me, I think is what like unlocked a pirate.
00:55:34
Speaker
but And then when we finally got, yeah, Pirates of the Caribbean, it was like, thank you. like That felt like the next step of this. Right. It's like scary swashbuckling pirates that aren't really scary. It's fun. It's fun. Yeah, it's a fun thing. They're they're cool, which I mean, you can you can argue that like actual pirate societies, when they were thriving, there was some interesting stuff happening.
00:55:58
Speaker
Yeah. Pretty developed societies. But like, I did note down and in all caps with one, two, three, four, five five O's. Rufio. We've got Dante Bosco. Oh my God. Oh man. Rufio. I never liked Rufio. That's your problem.
00:56:20
Speaker
I felt like Rufio was the child who was stolen from the late 70s, early 80s and really has to be loud in order to like hold down his authority as a lost boy yeah because like he is wearing leather that has been like stripped on the shoulders and beaded. He's got like the the hair, twin Mohawk, the shoes, Melinda. He's got red booties with super long red laces that crisscross around his ankles a bunch of times. Like there is something so purely other Lost Boys, the movie about the vampires, about him that is just like, I
00:57:04
Speaker
love rua and like I I loved him so much because he's also the exact antithesis of what you think about when you think of of Peter Pan. like He just visually does not, he's not a little white boy. He's not wearing you know like a leafy green situation with his hands on his hips. He looks like he's like going to swoop in as he does. so his like amazing surfboard on a track situation, which is a me it is child labor. It's pretty cool. i'm definite i think I think my aversion to Rupio is mostly just like he feels a bit like ah the Prince John in the Robin Hood story. He's still an opportunity to seize power and he took it. That way he is the right man for the job. so
00:57:56
Speaker
Yeah, I don't I don't actually hate Rufio. I just, um you know, you're like, you're, you're fighting Peter and you're trying to take Peter's spot. yeah Which I'm like, yeah, of course he is. Who else was gonna do it? Yes, there was a vacuum and somebody had to step in. So the Lost Boys didn't lose their, their whimsy, his strong leader rule with an iron fist over and he had like amazing like Susie and the Banshees like I makeup like there's just like, This like crazy stuff to him that I was like, this is an era that I would not associate because we see so much like newsies of the twenties, the Roosevelt boys, the but like Victorian children and the like the pirates throughout history. And he's kind of the most modern aside from Peter and Jack and Maggie. And I just like, I just like love that character so much. And I cry when he talks.
00:58:52
Speaker
it's like every time. I'm just like, not in Neverland. No one is supposed to die in Neverland. I'm, I'm, yeah, that's actually not okay. I'm just like, this is horse shit. just ah dare Even as like a six year old, I was like, oh what? But like, I just, oh, and I also have a note here because there's this whole like,
00:59:15
Speaker
We got to get Peter in shape so he can fight hook and save his kids. That's like the mission. And so the kids vote essentially like, okay, we'll take that on. Because they talk about loving to kill pirates and the pirates talk about loving to have war against the lost boys. And I was like, do you think that the lost boys murder pirates by a physical activity and stress? Like what they're doing to Peter is just chasing him around this. like peak that they like live on and he's like, yeah he's just like constantly horrified and like startled. And then they're, he's like carrying kids running, like doing a physical exercise while they're singing to him that he's super fat.
00:59:57
Speaker
They're just like, nagging him and just like, stressing him out. It's like, is that how you kill pirates? Because it's a very long, long game. i want to I want one of those pirates to write a memoir called, like, Negged to Death, a Pirate Story. It's just like, what are the rules here of the society? Because they keep shooting you with arrows and they're like, we're a real threat. And then they're like, basically, plunger arrows. Like, we're shooting you with primary colored tempura paint. The budget for tempura paint on this film has been crazy.
01:00:34
Speaker
of like i i just like ah Just to reiterate, because I just hit it, the note for me is like, Oh, this just set such a standard for me. As a kid, I was like for immersiveness with the things that people were wearing. And so it's funny because like I just hadn't consciously thought about the Tink and Peter Pan not being as immersive. What do you think about Tinkerbell's glow up when she's in that big ass ball gown? So I have a note about it and I didn't go super deep. Well, we can. So did you ever see Peggy Sue when Peggy Sue got married?
01:01:11
Speaker
No. Oh, that's a movie we're going to have to talk about at some point. I tell you, this season is not going to end. That movie was also filmed in Sonoma County in Petaluma, so that is a local legend. um I might have actually seen it. we there We did a whole month of watching movies that were filmed in this area. So it was one of my mom's favorite movies, and it was one of those where it's like, my mom loves this movie and I don't get it. And it's also one of the one of Nick Cage and Jim Carrey's early movies. and um So I would watch it as a kid and be like, I don't get it. This movie makes me feel really uncomfortable. And I was like, that's actually why, you know, adults probably love this. It's just like.
01:01:51
Speaker
not just because it makes you uncomfortable, but the reason why I would be uncomfortable is because it's about an adulthood that isn't just pure happiness and sunshine. Yeah. But there's a prom dress in that. No, no, no. It's a reunion dress where Kathleen Turner is wearing it. And it's this kind of silver and it is like, it fits in that one because of like the era, what we're doing there. Yeah. But in this one, this, if I were designing something, I would,
01:02:20
Speaker
I think want to push this gown with the same things that we were talking about with Tink's other costume, yeah which is more texture yeah because this gown is beautiful and wonderful, but it's also very labyrinth.
01:02:38
Speaker
Yes, which labyrinth is also fantastical all of these things. But there's the more of the glitter in labyrinth. and So it kind of fits that world a little bit more. Yeah, whereas this is like, okay, well, we brought in the 80s.
01:02:54
Speaker
in this like who whatever fabric it like it feels with your eyes, it feels like it's a polyester. and yes It could not be, but the level of shine. it's very Yeah, it's very unnatural. It's very unnatural. and if i I feel like I can feel the texture of it. it's like I think for for this one, because it's so silvery, it's so shiny, it's so like iridescent. If they had gone like like she's making herself into like a snowflake look. Like if they had, if because like that's kind of the feeling that I get from this color palette. So I'm like, if they wanted to do that and make it look like it's like made of ice or something, that would be really interesting. Also, or if they had kind of gone with this color palette with more gauziness, something in there to break up the hard
01:03:46
Speaker
plastic, bright feeling. yeah Because like there's there are some fabrics from when we were growing up in the 90s that I don't think that we really have any more. No, because they're like it like eugenic like the ways that you have to make like children's pajamas have to be made of like flame-retarded fabrics now. Like when we were growing up and it was not even an idea. What would actually explode if we if we set it on fire? Can we make there it out of that? There are a lot of like treatments where if you're super into into vintage clothing or if you work in like a costume warehouse or if you have like an extensive collection of older clothes or have access to that, you'll have more likelihood of seeing this kind of stuff. But there are fabrics that we just don't have in regular stores anymore. So we've kind of lost that textile experience, even like lunch bags from when we were growing up. It's just like that kind of textile, just we don't come across the same. yeah
01:04:44
Speaker
And this dress feels like something very much of that time. And like, I, yeah, I just, every time I see it, I love that she's so bright. And I i also add it again in all caps, there's the glitter because it's like finally we have our glitter moment. yeah And I love that she is supposed to be like this little starburst, but the way that it's executed especially now that i'm looking at it after you mentioned it is like why isn't there kind of why didn't we push it a little further with t yeah like it looks like a disney princess it does and that is such a conversation which we're gonna have right now isn't that crazy that like there are so many disney
01:05:24
Speaker
princesses that are pretty flat. It's just like color blocking and then like solid. li Yeah. And then you, and they sell the costumes to the kids color blocks, but then you go to a park and the actual characters, yeah you see that they have started, started in the past like, you know, decade or 15 years, started to incorporate actual like texture.
01:05:45
Speaker
in the in the the design of it so that it's not just flat colored. Just like a flat satin. It's like got something going on. And it's like still like we still recognize, ah, that's Cinderella. That's whoever. yeah And so this does feel very much like that. And it it's like it really does stand out. It stands out not only because she's super silver, but it stands out because there's just it's not as magical as you kind of want it to be.
01:06:11
Speaker
it's such a surprise like it's it just kind of you're like huh like yeah i think that's it it's a surprise that the wig is bad i'm sorry yeah the wig is is is interesting it's it's um i just a lot happening with the wigs with julia roberts in this yeah and that's i like i don't mean to denounce anyone's work but like I didn't understand. no It's just it's choices that we might not make now that were probably justifiable at the moment yeah and like great but also like looking at it now we go why did we go that direction? Yeah the dress is just like a moment where I feel like my eyes kind of skitter to a stop.
01:06:52
Speaker
Right. It's like, okay. And it also feels like a little, like a little girl's idea. Yes. Of what a pretty woman looks like in a pretty woman, Julia. But like, and that thought makes sense for Tinkerbell because she's developmentally. Yeah. Like she, that's like, she's wanting Peter to see her that way.
01:07:16
Speaker
in that moment and so like that could be like a child's idea of what it but it's it just like i think that you could push it further and like take it into something that because it's sort of like Why would Tinkerbell think of this yeah dress? like What would be the Neverland version of this idea? There's something in me that wants it to have been the result of when Wendy existed as a young woman, where finally Tinkerbell had a female
01:07:54
Speaker
influence and that in the time that Wendy was there even they neverland that they connected with each other and like even if like Wendy was telling a fairy tale to the boys that Tinkerbell was also listening if not also having conversations later with Wendy about like what's pretty like tell me about this stuff yeah and that this is something that would be reminiscent of that but what I what what i want from that is that it would then visually reflect that era of what Wendy knows yeah because the silhouette of this is like an evening ball gown, which you could argue would land you in like a very specific, it looks like there should be stays involved, that kind of thing. yeah Or like a corset. Too far in the past. for Too far in the past, but also like too close to a prom dress. yeah And so it it does feel like I ah want it to have a little bit more of that Victorian
01:08:52
Speaker
sensibility that Wendy would have carried from when she was young. Because then it would have felt like it came from somewhere. right Like, even if it was just like silhouette a little bit more, it would have felt like that. And then if it, if it had been made even back then, like if Wendy had helped Tinkerbell make this dress, and then she like took it out of a of a trunk, it would have been great if it had been added to over time, you know, like Tinkerbell had added her own shenanigans to it or something to make it more grounded in Neverland and more Tinkerbell because it it what it effectively does is it feels untinkerbell because this is the first time that Peter's seeing Tinkerbell as a tiny woman. But like- And it's very different than, it's so far from yes what we've seen, we've seen Tinkerbell wear in this movie that you're like, oh, huh? Yeah, it's the, it it's like she took her glasses off moment.
01:09:50
Speaker
So she's not hideous anymore. so Like it, it just, there's something about it that I want it to be grounded again, yeah where it could still be super shiny and super silvery, but then like maybe have some of that magical influence of the mermaids or something, you know, cause it's like she Tinkerbell could talk to them cause they hang out in a lagoon. They're not always deep underwater.
01:10:19
Speaker
right and like maybe she'd have pearls you know like shells like yeah some more abalone some of the little body sparkles yeah thing and so i i agree that that it's just like a hard drop like in the middle of the movie where you're like whoa i mean message wise it hits home yeah but visually it's like there are other ways that it could have happened yeah and felt a part of the world. Because it does feel like it walked off the set of Labyrinth. It really does. Yeah, just from the ball scene. One thing I do like that I do think needs to just be mentioned is the pirate baseball uniforms. Okay, I love It's so cute. I mean, like, you know, not as much. I don't I don't know that there's as much to say about them. I just really enjoyed them. And I love that they kept their little sashes even with their like baseball belts like on top. I just thought it was like very adorable. And also another little comment about something else.
01:11:25
Speaker
the armor with the Lost Boys. There's like bones on ruffios, you know, like chest plates and stuff. But they're like such cartoony bones, like little dinosaur bones. that ah So much ah about that. And like, there's just all these little tidbits with the Pirates and with the Lost Boys that are just so great because you have those pirate uniforms. Like, so Jack tells them the rules of baseball and then they make these little Just their little outfits. Uniforms, they like have a division of pirates, sewings and stuff. I love them. i did like i I didn't remember the lady pirates that were very coded like sex workers in this movie. Oh, yeah. I forgot about them. It's like, I mean, even in Pirates of the Caribbean, the ride, there's like, yeah that's that coded experience, either you're being
01:12:18
Speaker
um raided or you're working a working lady and that carries over here. Yeah, raided. this So there are ladies in in Pirate Town. There's a few, you know. And I feel like some are like shopkeepers too. Yeah.
01:12:40
Speaker
So there's more society in Pirateville than we're actually being exposed to. It is a thriving community. There's even kids there. There's a boy. He's not one of the lost boys. He is dressed like a little... Charles Dickens character. And it's like when there's like a pirate Smith who's like hammering one of the hooks, like nearby, there's just this kid just hanging out, watching him. And I was like, hold up, there's children? Like I thought that part of it was that all the pirates were adults. Like I thought that was part of it. So that blew something wide open for me where I was like, wait a minute.
01:13:26
Speaker
Are there neighborhoods? Are there subdivisions that we're not seeing outside of the lens of the camera? Like what? Are there schools? There's so many unanswered questions about pirate society. I really think that we need meaning need a a part two. I also really, really loved Jack's little baby hook costume. Okay.
01:13:52
Speaker
Which also begs the question that if Maggie had like been on board from the beginning the same way that Jack was, Please tell me that you would have also dressed her up as a captain. Is that all it takes is just to be the apple in your new daddy's eye? I think so. That's why I love Maggie. She wasn't having any of this. She was like, this is nonsense. yeah No, I'm not going to check out the weird sound in the basement. Why would you?
01:14:24
Speaker
I just like love that she was like, please pull yourself together. And Jack, meanwhile, is like, no, I want to talk about baseball. This guy's making a lot of points. you She's making a lot of really legitimate points about parenting. This is crazy. And I like that Jack is like, just stop talking about our mom loving us.
01:14:43
Speaker
I'm only worried about the effects of my father on my mental health. And I do think that that is an interesting conversation on masculinity in our society that we could have and that we will have later based on some of the movies that we're going to have. This movie was brave enough to start having that conversation. Wow. Thank you, Hook. Never thought I'd say that. Thank you, Hook. Brought you a little bit around to the other side.
01:15:08
Speaker
You're welcome. The hard-hitting conversations. Toss toxic masculinity. um Yeah, no, that baby hook outfit is just like, oh my God. And I and i really- And it looked great on that kid. He looks amazing. So good.
01:15:27
Speaker
He has such a face for that wig. like It looked good. He should think about doing that. That also, I think, set the standard for me for what I want Halloween costumes to be. Oh my god. Because I was like, if you can't be Baby Hook, stop it. You have to either be super cheesy or you have to be 100%.
01:15:47
Speaker
I'm wearing velvet tonight. like what is the Why? Why does it matter to me? I don't know, but it really did. It was a it was a sign. I think we know why it mattered to you. I mean, now. Now we know. Hindsight, 2020. You can only make sense of it when you look back, isn't that what they say? So true. Thank you for landing that in this NPR podcast.
01:16:15
Speaker
Oh my god. Okay, what else? What's going, what else? I mean, we basically spend all this time in Neverland and then Peter Rufio dies, RIP, and then um goes off to Greater Things and doing The Voice of Zuko and Avatar the Last Airbender and many other things.
01:16:36
Speaker
The Lost Boys basically are given a new pan where Peter gets his kids back. Yes, it is. and I think that 80 percent of that is that actor, the little kid, and the other 20 percent is John Williams. Yes. We can very scientifically break down the influence of the music, the children, and like each performance here and there.
01:17:02
Speaker
100 percent, but like and that's the that's the part of the movie where I'm just a wreck. The moment Rufio dies to the end, I'm like, because Yeah, Peter gets his kids back and he's like, okay, you should get back to your mom. Think a happy thought and go. And the kids say like, okay, bye guys. Strange kids that we've never met before. Okay, bye. It's been fun. And it's like, I wish that Peter had spent five minutes and gone. These are basically your uncles. I grew up with these guys. I taught them everything they know.
01:17:33
Speaker
And being like, this is where I grew up kids, but never spends any time saying that. And I'm like, oh I get it. They're true the traumatized. I needed i needed more it in the like denouement of the movie. I needed more of Robin Williams and those kids. i needed I needed a lot more. I guess I get that the goodbye had to be short and sweet.
01:18:02
Speaker
But it's also like I wanted there to be yeah crossover between his two worlds. I wanted the crossover and not to just be in the Pirates Bay. like I wanted that crossover for his kids to be like this is where you came from so that they could also have this thing in common with their dad that is not just based on betrayal and basically trauma and like being kidnapped. I felt unsatisfied in general by the reconciliation of Robin Williams with his kids. and like try and like I don't know. I just felt like everybody every other character in this movie was like dragging
01:18:48
Speaker
Peter kicking and screaming to a point of like emotional intelligence. yeah And then at the end, there wasn't enough a acknowledgement of what everyone else did for him. It closes very quickly. And like, I think that the part that I understand is that Sometimes with like children's relationships, things happen very quickly and very passionately, right? Like time is different when we're kids. yeah Like an hour felt crazy. Now as an adult, we we understand that hour when we're in a like a really traumatic situation or when we're at the DMV, like, you know, there's, or like we're on the phone waiting to talk to health insurance. Like there's something very specific that puts us in that place now. But as a child, every hour felt so long. yeah Like a whole day felt like a lifetime.
01:19:37
Speaker
And you could do so much in one day as a kid that as an adult, you're like, where did it go? Growing up is great. um there's just something of fear There's just something about this goodbye to the kids.
01:19:56
Speaker
that feels, and like also his his reconnection to them, that feels like childhood where like you could be best friends with somebody for two days and then never see them again and they will have been this massive memory in your life as an adult. right But you just hung out at day camp.
01:20:14
Speaker
you know And like you knew so much about this kid or you didn't know anything about them, but you knew that you had like these crazy adventures, whatever it is. like There's something about that that holds to me to the true to the trueness of Peter Pan and his, like when we were talking about the cruelty of children and not like loving you the way that you want that love to be returned, whatever. yeah There are better, smarter people who have talked about it and I'm sure you can find those conversations. But this isn't a college class, it's a broadcast. But there's just something there that has that like true brevity of like we've been through something and now I'm going home because my mom just rang the dinner bell, you know? And um so that like as a kid, I understood that
01:21:03
Speaker
timeframe better. And now I have that dissatisfaction because he has reconnected with who he was. yeah But who he is, is still that adult man. right And he is this adult man who is showing them what they want to see.
01:21:24
Speaker
which is the Peter that they imagined. But I do want him to connect yeah for his kids and for these you know boys, but mostly for his kids and for himself to show his kids that this is something that means something to him.
01:21:42
Speaker
yeah and that shaped him so that they can understand him a little bit more. And so that he can also flesh out to them that this was my home and it's not just this thing that you saw, there's more to it. right And like when we go back and see toodles, you'll be able to talk to toodles. Like understand, cause like the kids spend the entire, like their experience of Neverland is being captive on a pirate ship the entire time. And the only story yeah that they've heard of Peter Pan is from the perspective of Peter Pan's nemesis, right who is like...
01:22:18
Speaker
very bitter about Peter Pan, but it's also like Peter Pan is selfish and this and that and the other thing, which is also true. So it's like they're just kind of getting what they have experienced with their dad reaffirmed, plus more negative stuff, but they're not seeing the wonder of Peter Pan. They're not seeing the magic and the generosity and the community. And he just like flew around at the end and then for like a second, like hold, like if they all flew around together, just like, just like a little bit around Neverland. Cause like he doesn't even go back with them. I know. He's just like, see ya in a minute. I'm going to talk to these guys. Bye. It's like his friends at the bar and it's like, no, these are, these are magical children who've been here for a century.
01:23:03
Speaker
I don't know some of them, some of them. Your kids probably could understand the Lost Boys more immediately. Yes. And then they would also understand you better. And then they'd be able to talk to Wendy and yeah, toodles and they'd be able to understand.
01:23:21
Speaker
so much of this world, like my dad came from not Canada, but Neverland.
01:23:28
Speaker
It just be more reference, I think. My dad's a magical creature who's over 80 years old. Like what? I know. and so yeah its weird That kind of also adds to the bitter sweetness because, and this is again something to like, what I love about it and and makes me sad is that we don't get the time that we want. We get the time that we have. And so I think that Peter Pan is like, I got to go. And so it's never going to be a perfect goodbye and it's never going to be a perfect ending. He realizes that kind of like what he can do is just show these kids what they want to see.
01:24:11
Speaker
which is their legend, and then he can pass the legend on. And he can also let it go. And then- Well, that is a very beautiful sentiment for the end of the movie. I think that's a very beautiful way of looking at it. Yeah. So you're welcome for being correct. I wouldn't say correct. I would just say poetic and generous. It's not like- I just, that's always what I got from it. And then, you know, because that's what you got from it, then it's true. Yes. That's what you got from it, therefore that is true. That is true for you. My voice is the only voice that is correct. How dare you? The illusions of my childhood are being eroded. I cannot wait until these tables are turned. I don't They will be at some point. Oh boy, they will be. Um, but yeah, I just like, and then they, they have this like, yeah, not quite satisfying for us transition and fly off. But I do have to say the Peter flying away and then just that voice falling down, which like could be done a little bit differently now audio wise. I just like that always like makes me
01:25:32
Speaker
hi probably for so many reasons where it's like somebody doesn't feel like they have to look back. And it's also just like this person is leaving this world and is never coming back. yeah And it's like, oh, and like that always just, I'm like, but yeah and so they fly back to London and it's like everybody wakes up in their beds.
01:25:55
Speaker
Things are great. It's just like ah the light is super bright now. Everybody's happy. The children are back. Mom hugs the kids and is like sobbing. And and Peter looks at um Wendy and is like, hello, Wendy girl or whatever it is that he says to her that he used to say when they were young.
01:26:14
Speaker
ands yeah super weird It's super weird to have all your memories back and look at this woman that you have thought of as a grandmother for 40 years. like I feel like I'm watching the end of Interstellar. so It's just a literary interstellar. And then we have like this different version of Smee who yeah we're not now is Yeah, that was cute. Yeah, shoveling snow or whatever it was that he was doing. Peter basically yeah takes his cell phone and he
01:26:45
Speaker
gets rid of it. And it's like a message to us that he's learned his lesson. Throwing your phone away is such a movie thing to do. I know. Such a movie thing. You've never seen someone do that in real life. I paid for that. Also, phones are way more expensive now than they used to be. That is true. Crazy, way more expensive. Yeah, you don't just throw it in a list. This is a thing that not a lot of people remember.
Nostalgia and Movie Clichés
01:27:09
Speaker
My birth mother got her first cell phone at McDonald's.
01:27:13
Speaker
so This was in the era when they used to have VHS in their Happy Meals. That's how I got my copy of Adam's family on VHS was from McDonald's and it had the golden arches on the label. That is insane. Yeah, McDonald's when we were kids used to have crazy stuff that they used to give us in a meal. I don't remember. It cost us like three dollars. Yeah. So she got her first cell phone at McDonald's.
01:27:42
Speaker
And I just remember it being like so cool and I was so mad about it and so jealous. And um I'm sure that that thing was just plastic. Oh, definitely. Yeah. And so like tossing that I could very much picture because it would just explode into pieces and just be like, Mom, there was that McDonald's Happy Meal so far.
01:28:03
Speaker
But yeah, like just tossing a phone does not solve your problems. You actually have to be like, ah, don't call me on occasion. Yeah, there usually there's actually a conversation on the other side of that that has to actually happen. Yes. But it is such a great movie thing to do. It's such a great movie thing, especially when it's like, a no and now I'm going to kiss my wife, and we're going to be happy forever. Right? I'm getting out of the limo in Paris, and I do don't want to be the next Miranda priestly.
01:28:31
Speaker
So that's Hook. We did it. We made it. Thank you so much for watching this movie, even though you were very much dreading it. I i would only do it for you. Thank you. Oh my goodness. Thank you. I don't know if that's true. I'm just going to talk my hair over my shoulder. Fluff up those little cat ears on top.
01:28:55
Speaker
Oh my God. Yeah. Well, I hope that other folks give the Hook a try and I don't know, let us know what you think. I mean, I think like based on what I've seen on the internet, 90% of them will think that it's the greatest movie they've ever seen and the other 10% can come talk to me. Not gonna come the other 10%. If you don't have anything nice to say, come sit next to me.
01:29:24
Speaker
Yes. Who said that? I don't remember who said that. As far as I'm concerned, it's you. Whoever said it, whoever coined it first, thank you very much for giving that to my friend Melinda because I enjoyed it. It's stuff like classic Hollywood actress or something. Oh, probably. I don't remember who it was. I think a Bette Davis or a John Crawford kind of situation. Definitely, yes. I just don't remember who. Take a seat with me. Kick those feet out, darling.
01:29:48
Speaker
It was Captain Hook. It was Dustin Hoffman's Captain Hook. Actually, it really was. I do think that that's what he based his performance on. Golden Hollywood stars. Yeah. yeah Oh
Upcoming Episodes and Farewell
01:30:02
Speaker
my god. Well, this was yet another film in the canon of our youths, our childhood.
01:30:08
Speaker
Thank you guys so much. um I'm happy to announce that we don't have to end the podcast due to fighting. So we can continue next week and we are going to return to our double feature format. So we're going to be watching two movies. We're going to be watching Clueless.
01:30:27
Speaker
and Empire Records. It is such a great different view of the 90s from what we've watched so far. this is going to be I'm really excited about this. We're going to really get into the the pop pop culture of it all. yeah It's going to be thiss gonna be great. Yeah. So please join us. Tell your friends about our podcast. Spread the word. Follow us on Instagram.
01:30:55
Speaker
make a TikTok account so we don't have to. Or don't do any of that, but please listen to the episode if you're interested.
01:31:10
Speaker
oh Thank you so much for listening. Thank you. Bye. Bye bye.