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CLL #24 - Landon Ginn Interview
105 Plays2 years ago
CLL #24 - Landon Ginn Interview
Captains’ Logs and Lightsabers returns from it’s short hiatus with a very special guest interview episode. If you’ve been listening to CLL for a while, you know that Jonathan and Chris are massive fans of Star Trek Prodigy. Our guest today served as a technical director for the series, spending nearly 2 years on the project! What does a technical director do for 3D Animation? Guess you’ll have to listen and find out! The conversation veers in and out of video games, OpenAI, and more!
Chapters
0:00 Introductions
3:00 HDYGTW with Landon
10:20 Landon’s Fandom
13:30 Living in Star Wars/Star Trek Galaxies
15:50 The Challenges of 3D Animation
19:20 Living and Working in Japan
24:45 The Role of a Technical Director
29:20 Why Star Trek Prodigy?
34:00 Leaving a Legacy
41:45 Most Challenging Issue
47:00 Why Animation and Life at Full Sail University
57:00 Current Projects
1:04:00 Wrap-Up and Outro
Connect With Landon
Realize Design
https://www.youtube.com/@realizedesign
IG
https://www.instagram.com/landon_ginn
LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/landonginn/
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Contact the Show:
Twitter - @CLL_Pod
Facebook - www.facebook.com/LogsAndLightsabersPod
Instagram - @logsandlightsaberspod
Email: logslightsaberspod@gmail.com
Apple Podcasts Link - Rate and Review!
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/captains-logs-and-lightsabers/id1560069195
Spotify Link - Rate Us!
https://open.spotify.com/show/0h44WzqUlc726aafvwwlD4
Connect with Geek News Now
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Facebook - Geek News Now
Website - www.geeknewsnow.net
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Captain's logs. On the prologue. I'm Captain Millennium Falcon. This is Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Federation starship Enterprise. I already have one message from Starfleet coming in on secured channel.
00:00:28
Speaker
You're listening to Captain's Logs and Lightsabers, part of the Geek News Now Podcast Network.
00:00:48
Speaker
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Focus on Star Trek and Star Wars
00:01:16
Speaker
Hey, welcome to episode 24 of Captain's Logs and Lightsabers. We are the podcast with Geek News Now that covers both Star Trek and Star Wars on the same show. My name is Jonathan, and I'm one of the hosts of the show. Joining me for this episode again, as he always is, is my co-host Chris. Have you been since the last time we recorded, Chris? I've been doing great there, Jonathan. It's good to be talking to you again.
00:01:41
Speaker
Absolutely. It's been about a month since we recorded, so I'm excited to really get into this topic.
Special Guest: Landon Ginn
00:01:48
Speaker
Actually, the reason why we're here today is we have a special guest on the show. Our guest today works in 3D animation as a technical director. He's worked on projects like the 2021 Rugrats reboot on Paramount Plus, as well as a show that is very near and dear to Chris and I's heart's Star Trek prodigy.
00:02:08
Speaker
We're going to be chatting with our guest about exactly what a technical director does for the world of 3D animation. Find out more about his Star Wars and Star Trek fandoms and, you know, everything else along the way. So please welcome Landon Ginn to the Captain's Logs and Lightsabers podcast.
Career in 3D Animation
00:02:24
Speaker
Hey guys, how's it going? Yeah, so I'm Landon. I've been a technical director in the 3D industry for probably about 12 years now, currently out in the LA area. As you mentioned, I've worked on projects like Rugrats, a little bit of helping out with some of the SpongeBob 3D animations. And then the more recent project I've been a part of, as you said, was Star Trek Prodigy, which was a
00:02:50
Speaker
About two years that I was working on the project and I was one of the original people getting that show started. Very nice. I know Chris and I are, no lie, we're huge fans of the show. Absolutely. It's definitely, it's one of the favorite things that we got to experience last year for sure. Awesome. Glad to hear it.
Starfleet Event and Experiences
00:03:14
Speaker
All right, so we're going to kick off our show the same way we do all of our episodes. And that's with how did you geek this week? So, Chris, why don't you start us off? All righty. Well, I geeked as early as yesterday. So I've said before that I'm a member of Starfleet International and the Pittsburgh chapter is the USS Stella Pirata. So we had a crew event yesterday down in the south side works of Pittsburgh.
00:03:41
Speaker
we went to a place called Pins Mechanics. And basically what it is, it's kind of like a arcade almost for adults, kind of like Dave and Buster's, but it was a little different in the fact that we got to go and it doesn't really cost a whole lot of money. You just go in. They have old school arcade games from the eighties and into the early nineties that we got to play for free. So for the first time, I actually got to beat the old Ninja Turtles, uh,
00:04:07
Speaker
an arcade game. And one of my crewmates actually beat The Simpsons, which was really awesome. So but I got to play the old arcade Mario Brothers, Donkey Kong Junior, few other odds and ends. Then we also played some different pinball games. And then they have a different they have a life size Jenga board that you can actually play and kind of like topple your body over when the game's over if it doesn't go over itself, which was a lot of fun. We actually got to go down these slides, which was really cool.
00:04:35
Speaker
And we actually filmed ourselves as we were traveling down the slides. And then we ended by playing some duck pin, is it duck pin bowling, I think is what it was called. And I won that one with a score of 101. Woo hoo. It was a blast. It getting to be with my crewmates on board the Stella Parada. It's a real blast. So Jonathan, how about you? How did you geek this week?
00:05:01
Speaker
I don't know how many people know, but I'm a massive Broadway geek. My wife and I always buy the season tickets to all the performances that come through our town. And both yesterday and today, we got to see six, which is about the six wives of Henry VIII. But it's presented in a pop concert format. So a lot of the songs are based on some very popular pop divas.
00:05:29
Speaker
So each queen kind of has a different personality. So like one of them is very much like Beyonce or Mariah. Another one is like Ariana. And it's just like a pop concert atmosphere. But they're kind of, you know, in a way, it's kind of like the Hamilton approach, bringing history into a more of a modern lens. And it was a really fun show.
00:05:52
Speaker
Wow, that sounds incredible. It was a great show. It's easily probably one of my top 10 of all time that I've seen. Nice. Sounds like you guys had a great time. I think I saw a picture of you and Kylie on Facebook. I think I've seen pictures of you guys going there. It's almost like a little visual scrapbook you're putting online.
00:06:15
Speaker
Very much, I enjoy it. So, Landon, how did you
Exploring OpenAI
00:06:19
Speaker
geek this week? You're probably going to blow us out of the water here, but I'm sure. Maybe I'm just jumping on the bandwagon on this one, but this whole week I've been diving into the world of, you know, popular topic today, but like the chat GPT and the open AI projects.
00:06:34
Speaker
So I've spent a little bit of time the last two days coming up with a way to generate thumbnail images for like YouTube videos, as well as just a few because I'm a programmer. So I like to dive into any new programming related technology. And so I'm just finding ways to just be like, hey, I want to make a function to generate this kind of content or this kind of text or image or whatnot. So I've just been really going completely just
00:07:03
Speaker
hands in on the open AI technology right now. Wow. So could you give us just a brief overview what open AI is and what purpose it serves? Yeah, totally. So I mean, obviously it's a subject that has a lot of moving parts right now and a lot of opinions.
00:07:24
Speaker
depending on the subject matter, but the OpenAI project is a open source, I guess, or openly available, rather, project of AI and machine learning. The framework is out there, but it's basically open to the public on how you can develop the models of the training data for a myriad of tasks, and that can range from
00:07:47
Speaker
everything is simple as being able to recommend products on a website if you if you shop for one thing maybe you would like these things based on other people to generative models like. I have an idea my head but i don't know how exactly to draw it so let me get a. I'm a base level image and i can just describe in text you know what kind of environment or say i wanna landscape that's like.
00:08:13
Speaker
whimsical and planetary in the stars and the hero characters in the foreground etc you just type that up and it can whip out an image for you if you want to or conversely you could do it in a like a script based thing where you want to set the scene for an acting. Set and it would be able to generate a brief script for you.
00:08:36
Speaker
Okay. Without knowing it, I actually do have some experience with that. A couple of the Discord chats and servers that I'm in have, it's called Mid-Journey Playground, and it's the same idea. You type in narrative of what you want to see if it's like a character from a movie dressed in, I don't know, steampunk gear. You could say Han Solo steampunk, and it would generate images for you along that theme.
00:09:05
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And something that I use it a lot for, and this is specifically the chat GPT project, which is more of a chat based kind of interaction with an AI system that has a very, very profound like training model that is running it. I use it to learn things actually. So I use it kind of as a self education space. So if I don't know how to use a certain
00:09:30
Speaker
module in the Python programming language, I can be like, Hey, can you write me a script to do this action, and it will generate a script for me. And then I just look over and recognize, okay, that's how they set it up. Now I can run with it and get creative from that point. Okay, so it's kind of like, just a way to help you hone your craft.
00:09:51
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think that one of the largest potential areas for this technology has to do with personal trainers or personal tutors. I think that the education space is going to definitely be benefiting from that.
Star Trek and Star Wars Fandoms
00:10:06
Speaker
The potential is limitless, it sounds like.
00:10:09
Speaker
So I guess on that note, we're going to kick off our discussion here with Landon and ask him a few questions. You know, we're going to learn about what a technical director does and what he has done for the animation industry. But before we get into all that, I want to start by asking him the same question that we ask all of our guests to come on Captain's Logs and Lightsabers. And that's to tell us a little bit about your Star Trek and Star Wars fandoms. Mm hmm.
00:10:37
Speaker
All right. Um, so I definitely, how old was I?
00:10:42
Speaker
Maybe that revealed too much about me, but I remember watching the original three Star Wars and really enjoying just the worlds, the characters, the story. I was a lot more obsessed with the aliens rather than the humans. So when I was younger, I wasn't paying too much attention to anything like any love stories or any bit of that. I was more just like, oh, wow, Yoda's cool. Or that's a big ugly dude.
00:11:12
Speaker
The Sarlacc. That was probably one of the cooler things I remember as a kid. And then when it came to Star Trek, this is going to be so weird because I don't have the same kind of introductory into the franchise.
00:11:31
Speaker
I was actually helping generate some fonts for someone to be able to type out. And I was trying to figure out how to get some of the Romulan and Oaken languages typed out as like a something you can use your keyboard to try and try and do. And that was years ago. So I don't have access to those files. Man, I wish I did.
00:11:51
Speaker
But once I got into that, I'm just like, OK, I want to I need to like give myself some context and watch a few episodes and pieces here and there. And and so I didn't get I won't say I get too much into Star Trek nearly as much as Star Wars, but that's how I kind of got into awareness of Star Trek. Yeah, that would be that would be interesting to see what typing out a phrase or something in Romulan using a standard keyboard would it would end up looking like.
00:12:20
Speaker
It's very sloppy, that's for sure. I can imagine. That had to come out with a whole set of challenges, I'm sure. Yeah, just understanding some of the, I guess, the phonetics that go along with it. Exactly. Did you ever have a Klingon dictionary with you? You know, that probably would have helped if I got into that space.
00:12:46
Speaker
I mean, are the Romulan languages and the Vulcan languages, are they as thoroughly developed as Klingon?
00:12:54
Speaker
You know, I haven't, I know that like Duolingo has Klingon available. I don't, I doubt, I doubt that they're as well developed. Because there was a lot of theory that was being tossed around for the most part. And I am not a linguist by any stretch of the imagination. It was just a request and me just trying to jump in, right? So there's a lot to learn and a lot of dissecting even differences between the two.
00:13:23
Speaker
Well, if you ever get back into it again, let me know. I'll mail you my Klingon dictionary. Sounds good. It's a good collector's item.
00:13:32
Speaker
All right, Chris, do you have a question for for Landon here? Yes, I do. So if you could live in the Star Wars and Star Trek galaxies, what would you do? Would you be a Jedi, a scoundrel? Would you join Starfleet? And also for each one, what color? First of all, in Star Wars, what would your lightsaber color be? And in what Starfleet department would you work in? Oh, man. Let's see. So.
00:14:02
Speaker
and
3D vs. 2D Animation Challenges
00:14:03
Speaker
do the cop out answer on the where I would live. Because I think I'm a bit of a hermit. So maybe de go bar. Perfect. Perfect. Um, lightsaber. Um, I think the only right choice has to be purple. But that's only because mace windu beacon of wisdom. And if there's anything I've learned about myself, is that like, my biggest ambitions in life are to never stop learning.
00:14:32
Speaker
Nice. Such a unique story about how Sam Jackson was able to convince George Lucas to give him a purple lightsaber. It's a fun story. Yes. But I stand by that choice. I mean, personally, I think I would have green. What about you, Chris? Oh, definitely green. I think it's a very common color.
00:14:53
Speaker
For sure. And when I built my custom lightsaber, I chose a green crystal for mine, so. Nice. Yeah. Very nice. So Landon, what Starfleet department would you work in? What would you be most interested in?
00:15:08
Speaker
So it's funny you asked this one because I'm not too versed in exactly all the component or all the structure of the whole hierarchy, not nearly as much as a lot of my co-workers who are getting really detailed on which PIPs to be part of. However, there was this joke title that I was given that was the commander of ops and data while I was working on Star Trek Prodigy. So wherever commander of ops and data lies,
00:15:34
Speaker
I probably see you probably in a gold uniform sounds about that department. Hey, gold looks good on me, so I'm good with that. Hey, awesome. So it works out perfectly. It's fate. So let's let's talk a little bit about your role as a technical director for animation. We'll start with an easy question. What are some unique challenges with 3D animation that you don't have in traditional 2D or hand drawn animation projects?
00:16:04
Speaker
So nowadays, like the 2D animation industry has really, really changed, as you can imagine. What was once done, individual pieces of paper with, you know, cell sheets and then doing layers and projection techniques and things like that has now gone digital.
00:16:25
Speaker
So there's still software that is being used both for drawing key frames or key poses to characters and then team members fill in the blanks between the two. Now you can have computers help you with some of that animation or what they call tweening, which is just the in-betweening that goes between different action poses. There's a lot of different approaches to 2D pipelines and
00:16:51
Speaker
You know, sometimes you can reuse assets, but when it comes to 2D, a lot of things are unique and you have to generate content as you go along. So if it's a new episode, you're generally making that animation for the first time. Sometimes you reuse animations, but generally you are creating a new set of, I guess, poses and actions. Whereas when it comes to 3D,
00:17:16
Speaker
You spend a lot of time ahead of time generating things like the sets, the characters, the props, vehicles, etc. You can go through a phase of setting up a camera in 3D space to get that cinematic feel or to make it actually set up as you would in a physical location.
00:17:36
Speaker
And then you can kind of go in layers as you build out the set more, you have more props, more environment elements that can gradually grow into the final 3D scene. And you can kind of render it as you go along. So you basically do a lot more front loading.
00:17:53
Speaker
and getting it right and tweaking it as you go along and then you hit render for the final results. But if you get another season afterwards and you're revisiting the same set, you can still use those assets. You don't have to create it fresh every single time. And so that kind of like benefit is a great thing with 3D. However, that means that you need to have large amount of teams.
00:18:14
Speaker
handling and generating all those assets ahead of time and on schedule. So in order to get a specific set really like looking good, that's a lot of hands helping out with it.
00:18:28
Speaker
Yeah, I can only imagine with the volume of work that's expected and the amount of effort that has to go into even creating a few seconds of 3D animation, you'd want to have access to as much of the same
00:18:44
Speaker
resources as possible so you don't have to start all over again. I'm sure that takes plenty of time to build it. We're starting a year, year and a half, sometimes two years out before it's even time to hit the TV. Sure, sure. Animation, it takes time to really produce the final product.
00:19:10
Speaker
Oh, most definitely. Most definitely. So, I mean, it sounds like you've had a really well-rounded career involved in very interesting things, but I'm kind of curious about where in the world has your career
Career Journey Across Continents
00:19:24
Speaker
taken you? What is the most interesting place in the US or in the world where your career has taken you and why?
00:19:30
Speaker
So I've actually gotten the opportunity to really kind of bounce around a bit. For a time between 18 to 26, I think I moved like every single year it seemed like. And I would jump around cities around Texas, out to Florida for school, kind of in between Texas cities, Dallas and
00:19:50
Speaker
San Antonio. And then after working at a couple studios, I got a unique opportunity where I got an offer out in Japan. So I wound up moving to Tokyo. Wow. So from from a moment of in between jobs, there's like a two month gap of just doing freelancing. And then I moved out to the other side of the world. Oh, wow. That must have been quite an adventure for you to be able to go over there and just the cultural differences and
00:20:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it was a great experience. I have to say I recommend if anyone ever gets a chance to work abroad, do it. Even if it's like six months at a time, it's good to get well rounded and well versed in the world. It's, you know, you get to enjoy all kinds of foods, all kinds of events and things like that. It was wonderful. I lived in Shinjuku, Tokyo, so it was in the heart of the big city and going from
00:20:48
Speaker
San Antonio which is a decent sized city in Texas to Tokyo, Japan Definitely a bit of culture shock, but Yeah
00:21:01
Speaker
I mean, San Antonio is a pretty large city, but Tokyo is just so population dense. I can I can imagine how that would have been a bit of an eye opener. Oh, yeah, very much so. Luckily, I moved during summer, so I was a little bit used to the heat, but it's even more humid, if you can imagine, than in Texas. So it was kind of like walking through a fishbowl all the time. Oh, wow. OK. So what what projects did you work on during your time in Japan?
00:21:30
Speaker
So I actually worked for a studio who they did their own projects, but they also got outsourced from many game companies. And so the project I worked on was actually an outsourced project from Nintendo that some people may know as Fire Emblem, which is a strategy game.
00:21:48
Speaker
It's an anime style strategy game that is turn based on quite enjoyable very like deep in nature of how the strategy works i was a fan for many years ahead of time and so when i walked in all the characters were like.
00:22:04
Speaker
You know, this looks like a very similar design style that I've seen before, I feel like. What is this called? And my translator was like, oh, it's called, uh, iron 15. I'm like, Oh, iron. I'm not too sure what that is. Um, and she's like, Oh, well, iron from the periodic table is FE, right? Like, Oh, this is fire emblem. So they, they kind of joked around like that. And so I got to work on the cinematics for, for fire emblem fates.
00:22:31
Speaker
That's awesome. I have dabbled a little bit in Fire Emblem. I can't remember which one I played. It's been a while. I know it was on the DS. I can't remember which games in that series released on the DS. I forget exactly all of them because there's so many titles at this point. I think the first one I played was on the Game Boy Advanced.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds about right, because I think they started right around the Game Boy Color. Maybe Game Boy Advance was the first introduction to the series.
00:23:05
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not a big strategy RPG player, but I do enjoy Fire Emblem. And I know Chris isn't much of a gamer, so I don't think he has too much to add, but not much. You know, the last video game, I stopped playing video games pretty much in the late 90s when I was in high school. I just kind of tapered off from it. But every now and then I'll fire up my 30 year old Super Nintendo system, which still works surprisingly and play a couple of games here and there. But that's about as far as my gaming now goes.
00:23:35
Speaker
I mean, honestly, that's good, though, because, like, I have, like, the Nintendo Switch and they have that whole, like, SNES emulator. So I'm still playing Donkey Kong Country on that thing. Oh, there you go. Nice. I never passed up an opportunity to play a new release of Ocarina of Time. So I was really, really excited whenever Nintendo Switch introduced the N64 games. Oh, yeah. I'm excited to see what else they add to that.
00:24:03
Speaker
right? I know. I'm just I'm hoping for Shadows of the Empire. I know that has to be very tricky to get Nintendo and LucasArts to sign off on that, but I would love to see it on the service.
00:24:16
Speaker
Hey, if they can get a Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy into a Smash Brothers game, I think they can probably figure that one out. True. True. But yeah, Fire Emblem is a very, very wildly popular and successful series, Chris. So the fact that Landon worked on that is pretty, that's going to perk some ears for sure. Nice. I was pretty excited about it too. I bet.
00:24:43
Speaker
All right.
Role of a Technical Director
00:24:44
Speaker
So actually, before we get to the next question, do you mind telling us a little bit more about what a technical director does for the 3D animation industry, like what specifically you're involved in, just to give our audience a better idea? Because I know I know almost nothing about it.
00:25:02
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So part of the problem though, is that there seems to be many descriptions of what a technical director is and what they do. And that really depends on the scope that their assistants needs to come into play for a company, because if you are in a big company,
00:25:17
Speaker
You may have a smaller scope as to what you handle as a technical director. However, essentially what it is, it's kind of your go-to consultant and worker to deal with technology in a technical role for production. Really what that means actually is that there are so many things that can happen when it comes to working in software on a computer.
00:25:42
Speaker
You need somebody around who can troubleshoot problems, can develop and invent solutions to unique challenges, as well as someone who just kind of looks at what new software is coming down in the industry as a whole and maybe recommend new software to work on future projects. So for example, if we are working in something like Maya, which is a popular 3D
00:26:11
Speaker
program for film. Maybe we need a new tool or something like that that is unique. Perhaps it's a look. Maybe we want to make things look like the Spiderverse where it's like half 3D, half 2D. Well, maybe Maya doesn't have that out of the box. It would be up to someone like me or a technical director
00:26:33
Speaker
to write something in either a native programming language or find some solution otherwise to make that possible. To look at how does a 3D render work and how does 2D work and is there a way to combine the two mathematically or programmatically to achieve that final visual result.
00:26:55
Speaker
So that's one aspect. Another aspect is, hey, my files are broken and I'm getting an error. What do I do? And then I'll come over and be like, oh, you forgot to save or something goofy like that. So there's a whole range. So you can kind of help the animators who are doing the creation of the characters or the backgrounds to kind of fix any jankiness in a way.
00:27:18
Speaker
Yeah, like for example, we had an issue where files had some bloat code inside of it and it was causing files to be very large, which already in 3D, definitely files get pretty large to deal with. And this is the geometry, the points and the polygons.
00:27:36
Speaker
And sometimes it comes with extraneous code that who knows where it comes from. And so it's up to me to look through the actual ASCII files or the file itself and identify where that may be. Try and figure out where is this coming from and then come up with a solution on either to prevent it or to clear it out. OK, OK. I like that you mentioned Into the Spider-Verse because that that animation style, when I first saw it,
Influence of 'Into the Spider-Verse'
00:28:04
Speaker
2018 was when that movie came out, I think. I was just absolutely blown away by how it really took animation to a new level.
00:28:13
Speaker
It's gorgeous. It really is. And it's a trend that a lot of people are definitely doing more of. And so like, I think at the time with Rugrats, we were looking at every time the babies go into like a dream sequence or like, you know, the imagination sequences, maybe we wanted to get it to have a look and feel or something unique about it that is very clearly visually representative
00:28:38
Speaker
In a not not the typical world of the typical rendering style and so one of the things we were tossing up is that hey can we do one of these kind of shaders and i jumped off to star trek prodigy pretty early on from after working on on regret so i don't know.
00:28:54
Speaker
if they've used it since, but I came up with some shaders that could actually achieve some of that look, which, you know, it's very involved, but luckily my time in at the company in Japan, since that's all about anime, turned into 3D rendering, I was able to use some of that knowledge and come up with a shader.
00:29:14
Speaker
OK, OK, very cool. Chris, I think you wanted to ask a question, right? Yes, about Star Trek Prodigy. So it says you so you have done some animation work on Star Trek Prodigy in the past. What exactly attracted you to that project?
00:29:31
Speaker
So I think that we, in general, at Nickelodeon at the time, there were a lot of projects that were in-house, but not too many would come down the pipe that would be just something like Star Trek. That's very a unique experience. And so my boss, who I don't want to get his job title incorrect, I think it was supervisor, producer, Patrick Krebs,
00:30:00
Speaker
He had been working with me for a few years at that point in time. He was my boss for several projects and the moment that he knew that it was coming, he was like, dude, this is gonna be really cool. How about you help us out with it? It'd be great if you worked on some of the tools and we can talk about the pipeline to get this thing going. And just like, yeah, that sounds great.
00:30:23
Speaker
It sounds like a really awesome project. It sounds like we can really let loose on how high quality we want to get this thing to look and how do we scale it so we can have lots of components and lots of visual effects and really, really do something that's not the typical approach to some of the past projects we had done.
00:30:48
Speaker
Right. Absolutely. Are there any particular characters that you worked on that you really enjoyed? So I get to touch a little bit of everything when it comes to the production. Since I don't work on making the geometry and I don't work on moving the characters, I am always opening their files and I'm always checking to make sure that they are functional, that their files are clean and that the artist can take them and do what they need to.
00:31:16
Speaker
With them so i'm always looking at characters so like when when was first being designed. I believe was the first character that we were designing at the time. I mean it was such a cool thing to just be able to go go through and check to see what the artists were doing how they were developing the textures.
00:31:36
Speaker
Once the rigs were put in place and she was mobile you know i would sit there and work on making sure that the articulations and cause any problems which you are artists are amazing so this hardly ever thing to be concerned about.
00:31:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, like every opportunity I could, I'd always be messing with characters or props or go to, you know, like murder planet or as we called it and be able to like, yeah, around a little bit and, you know, check it out and things like that. And so even though I didn't personally make any of the characters,
00:32:08
Speaker
always kind of being like the one that floats around making sure all all the gears have grease and everything is in motion and everything is in this place for everybody to be working at any point in time uh that that's you know what's rewarding to me so i guess i got to touch everything to some capacity
00:32:27
Speaker
Well, that's wonderful. It's just amazing. Just the level of detail and work that all of you put into the show. I mean, kudos to all of you, the level of talent. It's just, it's wonderful. Every time watching the show, just getting to be in that world that you guys have created, it's just wonderful. Now, speaking of that, are there, is there a particular character on the show that you love out more than any of them? Hmm. I mean,
00:32:54
Speaker
I just I'm a Gwen fan. I'm a Gwen fan. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's. I don't know what season they're out on, so I'm not going to I'm not going to reveal any future things. There's some there's some cool characters. Yeah, we're going to go with Gwen. OK. Well, you got to create a new species from scratch. That's wonderful.
00:33:16
Speaker
You know, a couple actually. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And yeah, wonderful care. And Gwen was just full of detail and just just a very fascinating character. So thank you for your role in that. That's just great. I mean, everyone loves Murph, of course, but for sure. Yeah. When are we getting our stuffed toy Murphs? Anything I can't speak on that one. I can't speak on that one.
00:33:42
Speaker
Uh, Gwen is definitely one of the more compelling new characters in that show. Uh, just everything with, you know, you know, her, uh, traveling back in time to try to undo, uh, the first contact they had with Starfleet. I I'm just, I'm, I'm along for the ride for sure. Absolutely.
Legacy in Animation Industry
00:34:01
Speaker
So as far as what you would like to see as a legacy for either what you do or for the animation industry as a whole, what kind of mark do you hope you can leave on the animation industry?
00:34:14
Speaker
Oh man. So the legacy that I'm trying to build actually, honestly, I'll talk a little bit in detail if you'd like a little bit later, but what I've learned a lot in the past like 12 years in the industry, I want to pass as much of that down as I can while I'm continuing to learn more myself. As an artist turned programmer, there's a lot of missing knowledge that I wish I had going through school, a lot of practical knowledge.
00:34:44
Speaker
I wish somebody had taught better in school about how what 3D is or honestly even things like how to apply things like math because I was very much a like I only focused on the art classes and never really anything else. But if someone were to show me, hey, that stuff they're teaching you in algebra actually can be useful. Like I once repaired a 3D tank using the Pythagorean theorem.
00:35:09
Speaker
just to get the treads to move the right way. Being able to apply that in school and explain that kind of stuff is... I wish that existed better and so I hope that through some of the projects that I'm trying to take on that I'll be able to help people learn or be inspired by things of that nature.
00:35:30
Speaker
where I have struggled, I hope I can pass on to others. Basically ways to see light when faced with darker moments as well, because it's, it's not an easy thing to pursue being an artist in the industry for 3d or 2d or otherwise. And just finding the beauty and ambition and the pursuit of fulfillment and things of that nature. I hope that other people in the 3d industry can really
00:35:54
Speaker
I don't know if they feel like they're struggling. I want to some of the projects I'm trying to pick up right now. I hope to help be a little bit of a guide or a consultant in that space.
00:36:05
Speaker
I think my high school geometry teacher would be very pleased to know that the Pythagorean theorem is used today in 3D animation. And it can be used to troubleshoot some issues. That's fantastic. Whoever knew that something so simple, graphs and whatnot, could actually be used for the things that distract us from school.
00:36:29
Speaker
A wonderful point. Stay in school, kids. Learn math. You two can make animation. Exactly. And if you don't like math, just do computer programming or do 3D art because they're very satisfying.
00:36:44
Speaker
I will say this, I work with a lot of children and adolescents in my line of work. I'm a private practice therapist and a lot of the kids nowadays want to go into the field that you work in. They really want to do computer design, gaming design. So it's definitely extremely popular now with this generation. So I think that there won't be any shortage of anybody wanting to go into that field. I think that's wonderful.
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah, I agreed.
AI in Creative Tools
00:37:08
Speaker
And actually back to the whole AI space, I think that tools and resources surrounding that section of technology will make it a lot more accessible to people. So the new coming generations of designers and creatives
00:37:27
Speaker
Will be able to use tools that otherwise you would need to be working in large companies to have access to that will be great cuz then people can tell stories at all ages yes absolutely so i'm very curious land and what were some of your favorite projects throughout your career.
00:37:45
Speaker
Um, so honestly, the Star Trek project is pretty awesome one, but, um, and then the Fire Emblem is pretty awesome too. I mean, the thing is, is that any opportunity to really get to sit down and invent new ways we interface with 3d or the 3d software, um, is just something I really, really nerd out about. So.
00:38:08
Speaker
I think that Star Trek Prodigy was the first time I really got to let loose as far as being able to recommend techniques and how we go about certain things. There's creative goals that the directors want to see happen and then the supervising producer needs to make sure that it is feasible and it's within the scope of possibilities.
00:38:30
Speaker
And then that comes down to me as a question of, hey, is this possible? Is there a tool that you can write? Is there something that we've seen in the past slows us down? Can you write something to speed it up so now we don't have that kind of bottleneck? Those kinds of projects are really, really fun to me. So it's less about the show and more about the technology from my perspective.
00:38:53
Speaker
Because it's been several shows that I've worked on that wind up getting canned unfortunately for a myriad of reasons. And so you spend months working on a thing and then it's suddenly, you know, kind of kicked to the curb. Well, at least I got to make some cool technology that I can use for the next project with it. But as far as like the the products that
00:39:16
Speaker
I consume. Star Trek Prodigy has been a really awesome project to be able to see when it's finished. I got to work a little bit at the end of the Ninja Turtles 3D series, not the new ones that are coming out or anything like that. But there's like a Mad Max story that the old Nickelodeon 3D Turtles series had, as well as a crossover with Yojimbo, who is like a rabbit samurai character.
00:39:46
Speaker
Those were really fun stories to work on as well. I will forever and always be a Ninja Turtles fan, so that's fantastic. I definitely want to check out the new animated series that they have coming. I'm looking forward to it. Isn't there a pretty big like Hollywood A or B lister that's behind that series?
00:40:10
Speaker
Uh, I don't want to get mixed up with projects. I thought, Hmm, which one is Seth Rogen working on? That might be the newest one. I think that's it. Yeah. The movie, that movie is coming out, right? Yeah, that's right. The movie is, um, there's, there's a, there's a 2d series that's already out. Uh, and then there's the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's gotta be the one.
00:40:33
Speaker
Okay, I couldn't remember. My mind was blank as far as what star was involved. But yeah, Seth Rogen, as soon as you said that, the light bulb turned on. I also have to be careful because it's like, all right, this was announced, right? Yeah, okay, this was announced. Cool. Yeah.
00:40:51
Speaker
It's hard you know you spend so many years before a project even season light of day working on something so yeah you have to be very careful about what you disclose so they even have to go so far as you know install extra doors in a building to make sure that the rest of the company doesn't see certain projects that you work on.
00:41:10
Speaker
because sometimes you really have to be careful about how people find out about the project because there's a very specific schedule that marketers have to go through to get the campaign rights, to get the most optimized feedback and ultimately make money. So if that releases or gets leaked too soon for whatever reason, then that's a big deal.
00:41:36
Speaker
Right, for sure. So as far as I know, you know, you had mentioned fixing the tank using the Pythagorean theorem. What's the biggest barrier that you kind of helped animators push through or break through?
00:41:54
Speaker
So when it comes to, I guess, pipeline is the key thing.
Animation Workflow and Teamwork
00:42:00
Speaker
And pipeline refers to how the steps to achieve the final goal. A modeler will make the geometry for a character. A texture artist will add the colors and make rocks look like rock, make Jenkins Pogg's hair look like fur and hair, et cetera, leather, whatnot.
00:42:21
Speaker
Rigging artists will add the bones inside the character's geometry. An animator will move the character around to tell a story. Lighting artists will put lights in the scene to set a mood. Render artists will make sure that the renders come out looking nice. But there's like a thread that ties all of that together.
00:42:42
Speaker
How does an artist finish up a file? How do they work in iterations without saving over the same file? How do you name files? How do you find them? How do you get access? What if I have a set that has 100 lights in it? I can't remember the name of the ship. The protostar. On the bridge of the protostar, there is a lot of lights.
00:43:10
Speaker
do, if you have to turn it into different, you know, modes when it transforms, does it need to go, like, how does an artist select those lights and change those colors? That's not easy access stuff. And if you don't organize it in a specific way, then it's even harder to get access to that, that kind of thing. And so my job, and when the things that I did for Star Trek Prodigy and many other projects beforehand,
00:43:35
Speaker
is to create UIs to have access to these things for easy manipulation of values to help facilitate the naming conventions on how is the file named, where is it stored, looking at the name of the file, how do you know what phase it's in, where do you store the file, as well as when a file is done, how is it moved over to the next artist to work on.
00:43:59
Speaker
These are things that you don't visibly see, but they make all the difference when it comes to in a company setting or at a studio to make things work cleanly. You can't just do it sloppily. There's ways to make it scale so that you can have more and more inside of a scene. The kinds of things that I invented for the project really made it so that everyone was able to move quickly and at scale with a lot of elements moving constantly.
00:44:29
Speaker
I hope that answered the question there. It's just, I mean, it's amazing hearing how many moving parts and how many pieces go into, you know, the final project of what we see on our screens. And, you know, a single episode is what, 22 minutes generally of a half hour animated show.
00:44:48
Speaker
Yeah, and that's 24 frames a second, you know, 60 seconds a minute, 22 minutes, all of those frames are rendered and they and this is also part of my job too, is to make sure that the renders don't take too long because for a feature film, a render could take upwards to a few hours to render.
00:45:09
Speaker
In our setting, because we're TV, we have to crank out episodes way faster. We have to find ways to make it so that renders take 30 minutes to an hour per frame. And that means that we are wrangling a room full of machines, 40, 50 machines, and distributing each frame onto those, have them render 30 minutes to an hour, get it all back and stitch it together to have a movie file at the end.
00:45:36
Speaker
I can't even wrap my head around all of that. Honestly, I know what I see. So much of it is just incredible to see how it all comes together in the end. I really appreciate the level of work and the level of detail that has to go into these projects. The team, they're absolutely incredible. We had a wonderful
00:46:03
Speaker
management team and they're the ones who they have the spreadsheets of all the assets that goes into every basically you have an episode it breaks down into scenes the scenes are broken down in the shots you have to tell what shot has what set what characters what props that's all in a spreadsheet and you have to know what stage is all of these dependencies at is it still being worked on is it complete and you have a team who's dedicated to making sure that that
00:46:29
Speaker
that works and they are so very tied to the day-to-day lives of the artists to make sure that the artists are working, you know, they have a to-do list and they're on track, they're on schedule. And then the lead artists that we have on our team was, or is, I have moved, if we hadn't mentioned in the episode, I've moved actually to another project lately over at Disney, but team is still going strong for the Star Trek Prodigy.
00:46:55
Speaker
Stuff and everyone is just absolutely incredible very very talented people all across the board so. How
Passion for Animation and Education
00:47:03
Speaker
did you kind of get your start into animation what was it about animation that really attracted you and informed you like this is what i would i want to do for the rest of my life.
00:47:16
Speaker
So I know I'm a bit of a weirdo here in that unlike most people I know, and this is definitely not a flex. I promise that is I kind of knew what I wanted to be since I was a child. And I just kind of
00:47:33
Speaker
I didn't take no as an answer. It's really what it came down to. So I grew up in the age of Nintendo 64 when Mario 64 first came out, Mario Kart. And just seeing the 3D in that space, seeing games was probably the most inspiring thing for me. I was the nerdy kid who
00:48:01
Speaker
Wrote nintendo power like an idea for characters. And of course, they're just like, yeah, sure kid. Thanks for sending the email but Yeah, but I mean like that was the the age I grew up in was was like the booming of nintendo in that uh in the 3d space and so like the moment that video games started having cinematics in them
00:48:23
Speaker
You know you play a storyline you're playing along and then suddenly there's like this pre rendered movie. That is like way higher quality than the game itself that was so cool to me and so i knew that that is what i wanted to do when i was i think.
00:48:41
Speaker
I technically started programming first. When I was like 11 or 12, I was like writing websites for like talking about video games online kind of thing back when like bulletin board systems were popular. But then I picked up graphics when I needed to make my websites look pretty.
00:48:57
Speaker
And then when I realized, oh, sometimes you can make 3D stuff to do these graphics on the website, let me pick up that kind of stuff. And so I think when I was like 14, I started in a software called Bryce 3D, which is just an atrocious software. But it basically made like those old, like, if you ever saw this cheesy 80 3D, like renders that they would put on binders and things.
00:49:25
Speaker
That's kind of the software that that came from. It was not good, but it was a starting point. And so like in high school, we just happened to have a 3D class and that's what they used was Bryce. So I started picking that up and I swore that that's what I was going to do. I've played video games all my life and I mean, it was just like, this is just, you know, nerding out a bit, but I mean, it's that's just who I am. So I pursued it.
00:49:54
Speaker
I know you can't see me, but I am raising my hand in agreement as far as gaming. You mentioned the pre-rendered cinematics in video games, and I remember that my very first jaw-dropping moment was playing Final Fantasy VII for the first time.
00:50:14
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I technically played nine before seven and same thing. It was just like, what? Wait, this is this is actually before that. I don't know if you know this game, but there was a game called Legend of Dragoon, which was just I think that was probably like the core memory game for me. I think that those cinematics were way ahead of their time. Horrible voice acting, horrible voice acting.
00:50:42
Speaker
But the look of the game was was incredible. And so just like Final Fantasy 7, just like the moment the camera starts moving and flying through the scene and like I'm not controlling the character, but it's telling a story. They were things to look forward to and they were moving. They captivated moments that were emotional.
00:51:02
Speaker
You know, in those kind of cinematic situations. And yeah, I mean, like I, early on, I'm just like, okay, so how do they do that? And can Bryce do that? No, but I'm going to try and learn it anyways.
00:51:14
Speaker
I had a few like moments where i would jump between careers in college because there were no real programs not good programs i guess in school to really pick it up so i jumped between graphic design and a little bit of audio engineering for a little bit worked as a DJ for a bit.
00:51:31
Speaker
And then i'm like you know what i keep getting these ads for this full cell university. I'm just gonna go and despite the massive student loan that came with it i ended up getting my stuff together and really focusing in on that and. It's a two year program if you haven't heard of it it basically every semester is one month long and classes get scheduled at any hour during the day or night so you may have a month where you're you know you gotta.
00:51:59
Speaker
one pm to nine pm kind of thing next month and maybe nine am and then a one am to five am kind of like breakdown it was intense very intense eight am classes were bad oh no it was it was ridiculous and and there were times usually december gets rough because of the holidays they have to make room so they have to cram all the classes in on the weekends too
00:52:25
Speaker
So when you're learning 3d 3d is not an easy thing to get into but it is it's rewarding but it's there's a barrier you have to get used to. And so when you're when you're introduced to the technical side usually get in cuz you're an artist want to make pretty things but getting into some of the technical.
00:52:44
Speaker
aspects, you're going to be up all night. And we would be in the common areas, the whole class together. And we would just be working from just the entire night, basically until class started. And half of us have to stand in the back of the room. Otherwise, we will fall over asleep kind of thing.
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah. Very hardcore, but I graduated valedictorian. Congratulations. Great. That was a pretty awesome experience for me. It's a tough one because it's exactly what you put in. If you need sleep, and I recommend having sleep,
00:53:25
Speaker
Then maybe it's not the right choice, but I made that choice at the cost of some health, and it's paid out a lot for a lot of really cool opportunities for me. I mean, Full Sail University has quite the pedigree. It does. It's definitely, if you're interested in digital arts, that is probably the A-list university to go to.
00:53:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's definitely up there. There's a few options all over the board. That's the one that spoke to me and I moved out to Orlando to experience it. It was very much a you're in this bubble and the bubble is the world of whatever degree you're in. They have programs for video games, both art as well as programming. They have degrees for music business or, you know, entertainment as well as computer animation, which is what I took.
00:54:17
Speaker
And they have a lot of, they do a lot of TV production there too, don't they?
00:54:22
Speaker
Yeah, so they have a I believe they I forget the name of it, but they have a daily news that is actually Recorded live there. They have an entire film backlot because right started as a film school or actually I think it started as a audio school, but It's known as for its film stuff as well. So they have lots of stages in the back They have motion capture for some of the the sports video games They also do live
00:54:52
Speaker
esports arena stuff nowadays. Back when I was there, they unveiled the Blackmore Studios game development lab, which was basically in memory of, I can't remember his name and forgive me for all the Dungeons and Dragons fans, but the creator and writer of the Blackmore, I believe it's Blackmore.
00:55:12
Speaker
um uh story set or campaign uh so i got to play dungeon dragons with um that man's granddaughter which was pretty cool wow nice which it was just a short little thing everyone kind of played and it was just like a a very fast scenario you know just say what you want to do and it wasn't an in-depth campaign or anything like that but it was a fun experience
00:55:33
Speaker
Yeah, that is one nerdy pursuit that really never latched itself on to me and I kind of regret it. Dungeons and Dragons? Yeah, Dungeons and Dragons. I never got into it and I've had opportunities. At this point, I just feel intimidated to even start
00:55:52
Speaker
No, it's not. It shouldn't be an intimidating thing. There's definitely a lot and they've over the years made a lot more accessible for sure. Sometimes for better for worse, depending on who you ask. But it's a fun one. I mean, I'm not too sure on your opinions for like things like Rick and Morty, but there's a
00:56:09
Speaker
Rick and Morty Dungeons and Dragons campaign that's a little bit easier to get into. That was a fun one. I love Rick and Morty. And that really walks you through the process too, so you don't have to be like a great dungeon master or anything like that to get that. They already have the storyline in there for you.
00:56:27
Speaker
That's incredible. Okay. Maybe, maybe that's where I get my start. I recommend it. It was fun. Yeah. Sounds like it. Uh, wow. I mean, I could, I could probably ask you 20 more follow-up questions to everything you just shared with us, but I'll try to refrain. I guess we're kind of, we're getting close to the hour mark here. So I, I have one final question and then we'll kind of.
00:56:54
Speaker
see if that leads us to any more discussion. But I know you mentioned earlier that you are currently with Walt Disney Animation. And of course, without getting you in trouble, because I know how ironclad their NDAs can be, what are some of the projects that you're working on that you're allowed to tell us about? I'm not. Fair enough. I'm not.
00:57:19
Speaker
But I will say that I have some personal projects popping up if it's OK if I take a moment to talk about that. Please, please. Absolutely. So as I mentioned earlier, I want to leave a legacy for other people getting into the 3D space. I have a personal project right now where I'm starting a YouTube channel.
00:57:38
Speaker
all about how to build a career in the 3D industry. And this is less of a tutorial based channel. It's more about how to navigate as an artist, as a developer, the industry as a whole, how to navigate things like writing a good resume.
00:57:56
Speaker
developing a good demo portfolio, as well as certain mindsets and myths to debunk and general approaches to choosing the right schools, how to make the most out of your time at school, how to land your first job, how to really, really thrive in the industry. So I'm working on that currently. The channel is called Realize Design, if you don't mind me plugging.
00:58:21
Speaker
Look for, I think there's a couple other places that are channels that are called the same thing, but look for the little chest, night and light bulb logo. I only have I think four videos up and they're not great yet. So if you're into someone talking awkwardly at a camera for a little bit and you want to like join me on my journey of getting used to being in front of a camera and learn about the 3D industry, by all means, come join.
00:58:45
Speaker
I'm open to talk about this kind of stuff till the cows come home. So right now what I'm doing for the project is I'm with that open AI technology. I'm writing an entire production suite for content creation for myself so that I can just automate the majority of the things that I do not need to do manually and then do all the storytelling and all the video editing manually and then
YouTube Project and Industry Insights
00:59:08
Speaker
as I described earlier, about those how you save a file, how you move things around, all that's being automated through the stuff I'm developing for it. Very cool. Nice. If you don't mind, could you email me the YouTube link to your channel and I will make sure it gets added to the show notes? Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Of course, of course, I always like to make sure that I give our guests a chance to plug whatever they're doing or whatever they're working on. So yeah, definitely we'll make sure that that gets in the show notes for you.
00:59:37
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. I'm I have like, I'm gonna make a video on this. It's basically showing off the the system that I'm developing. I have over 400 videos lined up for episodes. I only have four hosted. So I've got a lot of work to do. But it ranges for beginners, graduates, industry professionals, people who want to start studios. So it covers a gamut of who it's for.
01:00:00
Speaker
Okay, wonderful. Chris, do you have anything that you'd like to add or ask? On the technical aspects, not really. But I guess as a fellow nerd, just since you've been working on Star Trek Prodigy, what are your thoughts right now about this season of Star Trek Picard? Have you been enjoying it? I need to actually catch back up. I've watched. How far did I get?
01:00:25
Speaker
We got real deep into production when Picard first came out and we got the opportunity to watch it in the Nickelodeon theater for the first few episodes. And I don't know, like everyone, it's kind of like a different opinions on the show. I really liked it. And I need to I need to catch back up because I've been meaning to get back to that. How many episodes are you in so far for this season?
01:00:53
Speaker
I think that I need to catch up on the first season, actually. So really, I'm a little bit far behind with how busy you are. It makes sense. And it makes sense. Let me just tell you, you're in for a wild ride. They've come up with so far. These first five episodes have been incredible. So if you're a big track nerd, you will, you will love it.
01:01:12
Speaker
Yeah, I'm looking forward to that one. I've been meaning to get back into it and like, oh man, like this, this job is definitely one that it's, it's from the time you start till the time you clock out and then some kind of thing. So it's, it's, it's hard to really unwind. Sure. I can imagine. And I'm sure, you know,
01:01:32
Speaker
You know, working in animation and video games, I mean, I'm sure you have a lot of crunch time where, you know, right as projects are getting ready to be shared with the world, I'm sure you work even longer hours just to hammer out all of the
01:01:48
Speaker
issues and anything that could come up before it's ready to be seen. I have stories on times where I was working from 8 in the morning to 3am or so before I would head home and on some of those days it was like stay at the studio and just like find a way to sleep under the cubicle.
01:02:09
Speaker
kind of moments or three months at a time just to get a project, you know, out. And those are those are like rare, but they happen. But yeah, yeah, lunchtime is the thing. Very much. It's why, you know, when when I see the games get delayed, I, you know, of course, if it's something I'm anticipating, I really I get a little disappointed. But I, you know, knowing how much that, you know, the hands that go into making it
01:02:40
Speaker
you know, how much work they do. I'm sure they appreciate the extra, you know, three, six, eight weeks that they get to to really hammer out the final details. Yeah, I promise you that everyone who's working on the project creatively and just like systemly, if that's word, they all want it to succeed. They all want it to be as best as possible. Usually when it comes to like things that hold it back, it's usually a trickle down effect.
01:03:07
Speaker
Typically, um, but like the artists, like if, if someone gets delayed, even though the artists are probably going to be working their butts off to get it like where it needs to be, no one is ever satisfied at the end of the day. Everyone is just like, Oh, I wish I could made it like just that little bit more perfect. Um, and everyone is, you know, the teams are always striving, I guess for the highest quality possible. So, uh, when, when things get delayed, of course, of course. Yeah. It's it.
01:03:34
Speaker
the amount of work that I mean, just what just from talking to you this past hour, it really has given me a new perspective on on these types of projects. So, yeah, I will never complain again about the game getting delayed. I mean, if you do complain, sorry, the artists are probably complaining a little bit, too, because they wish that they had the the I guess the structure to have succeeded at that time, too. Sure. Sure.
01:04:02
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Well, this has been quite a fascinating discussion. I really appreciate the time that you've taken to come on our show and
01:04:13
Speaker
talk this past hour. Wow. Um, it's given me a lot to think about. Yeah. Yeah. I could nerd out with you about video games all day long. So if you ever want, if you ever want to connect on any kind of social media or if you just want to coordinate by email, um, I would love to just nerd out with you for the foreseeable future. So yeah, yeah, I'm down.
01:04:39
Speaker
All right. Well, again, thank you so much, Landon, for joining us today. Thank you for joining us on Captain's Logs and Lightsabers. I hope that our audience enjoys this episode as much as we enjoyed recording it. So please, if you have any feedback for us, if you'd like to see more guests like Landon come on the show, let us know.
01:05:04
Speaker
On that note, I think that's going to do it for episode 24 of Captain's Logs and Lightsabers. My name is Jonathan. And I'm Chris. And I'm Landon. May the force be with you. And live long and prosper.