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CLL #31 - Benjamin Sisko
127 Plays1 year ago
Geek News Now is “FUELED BY THE FANS” and Captains’ Logs and Lightsabers Podcast is too! On Star Trek Day, September 8, Geek News Now posted a photo asking YOU to react to your favorite Starfleet captain. The post was notably missing one Captain Benjamin Sisko and y’all let us know it! There were hundreds of comments asking about Sisko, so seeing as how Star Trek is kinda our thing, the hosts of CLL decided to get together and pick their favorite Sisko episodes and the things that we feel make Sisko a unique personality and a wonderful Starfleet captain! We brought back John Mark Tolly from the GNN shows War of the Stars: A Star Wars Podcast and Star Wars Through The Eyes of a Child to wax poetic about the inimitable Benjamin Sisko!
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Transcript
Introduction and Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
Captain's logs. I'm Solo. I'm Captain Millennium Falcon. This is Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Federation starship Enterprise. I already have one message from Starfleet coming in on secured channel.
00:00:28
Speaker
You're listening to Captain's Logs and Lightsabers, part of the Geek News Now Podcast Network.
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Hosts' Personal Insights
00:01:15
Speaker
Hey, welcome to episode 32 of Captain's Logs and Lightsabers. My name is Jonathan. I'm one of the hosts of the program. We are the podcast on the Geek News Now network that talks about both Star Trek and Star Wars in the same show. I couldn't do this alone, so I'm going to introduce my co-host as he joins me for yet another episode. That's Chris. How's it going? I'm doing great, Jonathan. How are you doing?
00:01:41
Speaker
Oh, hey, you know what? I'm having a great time. I'm just happy to record another episode with you. It's been a little bit rough personal life-wise and not something I want to go into too much detail on, but my personal life has been a little rough the past couple weeks, so I'm happy to have this to distract me.
Guest Introduction: John Mark Tully
00:02:05
Speaker
We had so much fun the last time he was on the episode, and that was episode 31, where we talked about Strange New World season two. I had to ask him back for another episode. He's actually a great Star Trek fan, and I don't know if I was expecting to have such a good discussion the last time when he joined us, but he's back for another appearance, and that's John Mark Tully. How's it going, man? It's going great. Great to talk some Trek and to talk Benny Sisko.
00:02:34
Speaker
Yes, sir. And that's what we're going to talk about this this episode.
Highlighting Captain Sisko
00:02:40
Speaker
We're going to skip over. How did you geek this week? We're not going to talk any news because there's really not much. But back on Star Trek Day, Geek News now put up a post on its main Facebook page asking the fans and we are fueled by the fans, asking the fans to weigh in on some of their favorite Star Trek captains. They put up a little graphic that had Picard, Kirk,
00:03:04
Speaker
Janeway, Captain Freeman from Lower Decks, Michael Burnham from Discovery, and Captain Archer. And a notable omission from that was Cisco. And you fans, you let us know that you were upset with that. There were hundreds and hundreds of comments asking, where was Cisco on the graphic? And we wanted to make sure that as a Star Trek-focused podcast,
00:03:34
Speaker
responded to that, that love of Cisco. So that's what we're going to do this episode. You know, Mark, Chris, and myself, we have come up with several episodes that we feel highlights why Cisco is an awesome Starfleet captain and just some things about him, some of his personality traits, and some of the things that make him one of our favorite captains. And we hope that you'll enjoy this look at a very underrated Starfleet captain. So
00:04:05
Speaker
without too much further ado, we're gonna get started. So what is it about, what is the, Chris, give me just a quick two or three minute thing why you love Captain Sisko.
00:04:21
Speaker
I love Captain Sisko for many different reasons. First of all, I love the fact that he has this little bit of trauma. He had quite a bit of trauma watching his wife basically die right in front of him during the Battle of Wolf 359. We see how that was negatively impacting him when he became the commanding officer of Deep Space Nine. It was interesting to see how
00:04:43
Speaker
how negatively that impacted him to the point that he wanted to leave Starfleet altogether. But working through the trauma with who eventually who became the prophets, he kind of learned how to work through the trauma and be able to become this great commanding officer of this station and to help bring the kind of not necessarily unite the Bajorans, but kind of, sorry, I lost my train of thought.
00:05:09
Speaker
He was also pretty instrumental in helping the Bajorans kind of rebuilding from the occupation, and it helped him to grow as a leader. And he even said five years afterward, when they had to abandon Deep Space Nine, how much that planet and everybody on that station basically became family to him. You know, so watching him grow from this traumatized person to being able to draw strength from it and becoming this great leader and soldier is something I really liked about him.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah. I see what you're saying there with, you know, and I, and I had a feeling you were going to Lee, you know, I was fairly certain that we weren't going to get through this episode without at least talking about, you know, his
Sisko's Family and Leadership
00:05:48
Speaker
trauma. And I expected you to bring that up, but, you know, with me having, you know, recently reentered the mental health field, I'm looking at, you know, the episodes that I watched for this episode, you know, for this recording.
00:06:02
Speaker
I'm looking at the episodes I watched and I'm seeing how all this trauma affects. I'm looking at it through a different lens than I used to. Yes, absolutely. So Mark, anything to add to what Chris had to say? Or if you want to go into why you think Cisco is a fantastic captain, you may go right ahead. Oh, thank you.
00:06:26
Speaker
I like, I love Cisco because I think more than any other captain, you, you get something for Cisco that we don't see with other captains. That is a family man. You know, Kirk was famously married to the enterprise, you know, same thing kind of with, with Picard.
00:06:44
Speaker
with Cisco, we get a father. I love that aspect of him, the father aspect. I love his relationship with Jake. I love the fact that he's so loving with Jake, that he's not afraid to say I love you, to show emotion. I don't think that's something we got
00:07:05
Speaker
we really got with a lot with the other captains. We didn't get, not that their captains didn't get emotional, but you know, Cisco wore his emotions on his sleeve. You know, you, what you, you know, there was no getting around what Cisco was feeling. You knew right away, you knew what Cisco was feeling. Like that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how can you not like someone who's a baseball fan? And I know that is right. You know, that's right up your alley, of course.
00:07:36
Speaker
That's a line drive down your infield, actually. Sorry, bad baseball pun. Yeah, I just I love how Cisco is not afraid to get his hands dirty either. You know, he's very much a boots on the ground. And I know you would mention this, you know, while we were talking pre show Mark,
00:08:00
Speaker
He's very much a soldier. He's a boots on the ground, not a person who's afraid to get his hands dirty and do whatever it takes to get the job done. I mean, he's not even above blackmail. Oh, yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah, I think it's interesting because just with their personalities, I couldn't see anybody else
00:08:25
Speaker
during the Dominion War and the position that Sisko was other than Sisko. I could not see Picard basically running the Dominion War like Sisko did. Oh, no way. And nothing against Picard. Picard was a great captain, you know. I grew up with Next Gen, but that was just a completely different show and a completely different Starfleet.
00:08:50
Speaker
and what we see in DS9. And as controversial as this may be, I've said this before and this might be, and I think one of the best things to happen was, for Star Trek, was Gene Roddenberry's passing. As sad as it might be, because that allowed the show to go in a direction that I don't know if it could have gone with Roddenberry still there.
00:09:18
Speaker
I don't think Roddenberry would have liked DS9. No, I think you're right because the whole idea was always wagon train to the stars, right? That was the pitch, essentially, back in 64-65
DS9 and Westerns
00:09:34
Speaker
when he was pitching the show, was wagon train in space. The whole idea of being on a space station and not out exploring the stars
00:09:44
Speaker
Definitely went against Gene's vision. Well, not just that, but the fact that DS died from the very beginning was a much darker show. Yes. But it still had elements of Star Trek. It still had that hopeful future and stuff like that, but it was more grounded in reality. Yeah.
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's actually interesting because I've heard I've heard some people say how, you know, the original series was pitched as a wagon train to the stars. Well, DS9 was basically Bonanza in the stars or the rifleman. Yeah, that's that's that was in fact, that's why I heard it heard it heard it described is DS9 was the rifleman in space. Yes, that I don't think I've ever heard it described that way. But yeah, it absolutely makes perfect sense.
00:10:31
Speaker
He's actually right about that in the rifleman. There was a single father with his son It was probably about Jake's age and they came to this town on the this frontier town on the edge of Civilization basically bringing law and order to that area. So it sounds exactly like deep space 9. Yeah I Mean I wouldn't be surprised if in the pitch meeting that's where they started right? Yeah, that's actually they did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
00:10:57
Speaker
I like it. And I'm not familiar with the rifleman, obviously. So I appreciate you two having that knowledge and sharing that with me because now I might have to actually go seek the show out if it's anywhere. It's on me TV. OK, it's on me TV, which I don't have because I don't have cable. I'm sure you can find it somewhere. It's yeah. Yeah. Sure. Old Western. It's good, though. OK, I'll have to check it out. I yeah.
00:11:28
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds, I don't have a very deep relationship with Westerns myself, but I mean, it's got me intrigued enough to at least check it out. So I can do that. I can promise that much. So, okay. Why don't we pick a couple episodes that we as fans of DS9 and fans of Cisco think are some prime examples of what makes
Moral Complexity in 'In the Pale Moonlight'
00:11:58
Speaker
Benjamin Sisko, a great captain, a unique captain. However our perspective on it is, however we interpreted that, let's start with Chris. Why don't you pick an episode for us and tell us a little bit about the episode and then why you picked it and why you feel that's a good
00:12:17
Speaker
exploration of Cisco's character. Okay, so the first one I'm going to discuss is from season six in the Pale Moonlight, which is a very popular episode among Star Trek fans. And basically, this was the episode where the Federation was really taking a beating in the Dominion War, and Cisco decides on his own to find a way to bring the Romulans into the war.
00:12:40
Speaker
So basically he and Garak work together with some sort of criminal to create a holographic representation of a Dominion meeting where apparently they were planning the invasion of Romulus. And so they complete the rod in the program rod. They have.
00:12:58
Speaker
A Romulan senator named Vreenak that comes to the station who inspects it, and he finds out it's a fake. And what we find out is it's a fake. It's that new con expression. So we find out that Senator Vreenak's shuttle is destroyed after it leaves Deep Space Nine. It turns out Garak
00:13:18
Speaker
Blew up the ship because he knew that it was gonna that the person who created the hologram wasn't gonna be up to par with doing the job correctly and so guy the ship being destroyed it looked like any kind of Distortion in the program was a result of the explosion so it brought the Romulans into the war but it's such a fascinating episode because it just it just just imagine
00:13:41
Speaker
what kind of psyche that you have to have at that moment. You're watching people that you know dying in this horrible war, and then you decide yourself, the only way we can try to possibly win this is by tricking people into coming into the war. And then the question is, can he actually live with that? And that's actually what he was saying in the very end of the episode. I can live with it. It was almost like he was trying to convince the audience, but he was also trying to convince himself.
00:14:08
Speaker
of whether or not he could actually live with this. And then he just deleted the whole program and the episode ended. It was, it was just fascinating.
Themes of Freedom and Security
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I, I honestly, when you, when I heard that you were doing that episode, I'm like, Oh, come on. I want to hear that one. Jonathan, Jonathan wanted to do it too.
00:14:26
Speaker
Everybody, because that is the quintessential, one of the quintessential DS9 episodes. I mean, it's a great, great episode. And yeah, it just shows you how different Cisco was from the other captains because Picard wouldn't have even entertained the idea of doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Picard often took the moral high ground and yeah, he did not, you know, he tried to find the cleanest solution possible. Yes.
00:14:56
Speaker
Absolutely. And that's what made deeps again, Deep Space Nine so different from a lot of the other Star Trek that had come before at that time. No one ever really said to had that moral question come into play during their time on the enterprise. You know, all of a sudden now we got this big war going on and what do we do to save lives? And now the question is, I wish they would have followed up with this to some degree since the show was somewhat serialized, because it would have been interesting to see how that really did play with this psyche, because think about it.
00:15:26
Speaker
Every Romulan soldier who died in that war, their blood is on Sisko's hands. Same with any Riemann cannon fodder that they talked about in Star Trek Nemesis. All those lives are on Sisko's hands because of this lie. It would have been interesting to see how that would have played with him a little bit more, but they dropped it. That would have been really cool. Yeah. I just think his end, his ascension to be with the prophets, I think that was
00:15:55
Speaker
just meant to be the final, you know, that was meant to be his end, right? That was the end of his story. And anything, any fallout was inconsequential, maybe? Possibly, yeah. I don't know. What do you think, Mark? I agree. I mean, I can see both. Like, I would like to have seen at least something in the episode where it's brought up somehow. But yeah, I mean, I don't know.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess Star Trek has really never been that great at showing the fallout from the, you know, the adventures that we see all the ships and, you know, Starfleet officers go on. We never really get, you know, the
00:16:41
Speaker
the cleanup crew, I guess. Well, we have lowered accident. Yeah, pretty much. There was only one time in Star Trek where it kind of did get brought back up when Archer, some of the decisions that Archer made during the Zindi arc of Enterprise's third season. And then when they came back in the back home in the fourth season, they had that kind of
00:17:02
Speaker
Hearing or whatever I guess it was quartering and Archer did get confronted on some of his behaviors though not so much by Starfleet but by ambassadors of all and So we got to see a little bit of some of how that the ramifications of how that played on Archer's mental health True. Yeah, but that was it. I honestly forgot about that episode and it's it's just been far too long since I've watched You know a ton of enterprise
00:17:28
Speaker
I just get distracted by everything else. It's so hard. There's so much Star Trek to watch now. It's hard to go back and rewatch everything because it's the watch. All right, Mark, do you have an episode that you'd like to kick us off with? Why? I would like to start us off or a mine with a actually a two parter. It is the home front and hold on. Let me pull it up. Sorry.
00:18:00
Speaker
Homefront and Paradise Lost.
Serialized Storytelling in DS9
00:18:03
Speaker
These are two because I think this really confronts for a little background. In this one, Sisko has been recalled to Earth and is basically working as kind of not, I can't remember why exactly he was brought back to Earth. But
00:18:23
Speaker
there appears to be some sort of attack or some sort of something happens and earth basically goes into a martial law. And you see just how quickly paradise can be lost.
00:18:40
Speaker
And, you know, Sisko is put in a position where he had, you know, almost the same, not really the same situation as an inferno's light, but a real moral conundrum. You know, how much does freedom cost? What is the cost of freedom?
00:18:57
Speaker
And I love the scene where they're going through and you see basically Starfleet soldiers on the ground and he's at his dad's restaurant and he's trying to convince his dad to get the blood test. It's one of those episodes that you look back at on it and you're just like,
00:19:22
Speaker
Wow, they were they were pretty close with a lot of things that have happened in the, you know, and, you know, since that episode came out, as far as, you know, what what is the cost of national of international security or intergalactic security? You know, what what is the what is the cost of it? So that's why I really like it. Yeah.
00:19:48
Speaker
Yeah, and it kind of has some echoes, at least a little bit, to some of the plot points of Picard season three, where you have changelings infiltrating Starfleet across the entire fleet, not just on Earth. Yeah, I actually kind of sort of forgot about this episode until you mentioned it. And you also asked the question of, are you willing to give up your freedoms for security?
00:20:16
Speaker
Right. Yes. Like that's the big one. What are you willing to give up to be safe? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's kind of, well, I mean, Star Trek has always been very good about, you know, and, and sci-fi in general, which is drawing parallels, using examples of things in the future to, you know, to
00:20:42
Speaker
you know, shine a light on what we're dealing with in our current, you know, in our in the current zeitgeist, in the current, you know, the way the world is functioning. And unfortunately, so many people are just completely not they don't pick up on
00:20:56
Speaker
what these episodes are trying to teach us about ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. For Star Trek, it was pretty disturbing watching those soldiers beaming into the streets. This was the first time that as Star Trek fans, we really saw boots on the ground on Earth instead of on other planets. Yeah, Earth has always been, in Star Trek, Earth has always been paradise. Yes. It's always been this perfect
00:21:23
Speaker
you know, society. And, you know, I think even not just this episode, but a lot of episodes in DS9 really started to pull back that onion, that earth, you know, and I mean, this isn't, you know, a a section 31, but section 31 to kind of prove that Earth's not always necessarily this perfect utopia that we always, you know, it's been portrayed as it's on. It's held up by a house of cards.
00:21:53
Speaker
And the slightest little, you know, gust can cause that whole structure to collapse. Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah, it definitely brings some
Sisko as the 'Emissary'
00:22:06
Speaker
some heavy connotations and some heavy subject material to really consider how it relates to our current world. It's yeah, it's
00:22:18
Speaker
This is all, you know, like you said, Deep Space Nine has never really been afraid, you know, from the beginning, it was never afraid to get its hands dirty. And I think, you know, and same with Cisco, that's one thing I love a lot about the show.
00:22:32
Speaker
Absolutely. Also, I guess there was a really interesting thing you've never seen before as well. Two Federation starships intentionally attacking each other. That was that was kind of creepy to see that the Defiance trying to head back to Earth and the Lakotas there trying to stop them and Starfleet officers actually died in this this skirmish. You had never seen that in Gene Roddenberry's track. No way. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Mark, did you have any other
00:23:00
Speaker
anything else on this episode that you wanted to highlight? Not at the, not right now. Not, I mean, obviously when we get to other shows, but yeah. Okay. Yeah. You picked a fantastic set of episodes and yeah, it's now I think I'm going to have to add that to go back and rewatch. It's yeah. Anyway, so I know, you know, we did a season six episode. We did a season four.
00:23:30
Speaker
Set of episodes i'm gonna take us back to the beginning for my first and and that's emissary you know that that's the pilot episode of ds9 and I You know, we we talk, you know, this is where we learn everything about cisco We learn, you know that he is a family man. We learn that he's a single father, you know because of You know what, you know the losing his wife during the battle of the wolf 359
00:23:59
Speaker
You know, we get so many aspects of Sisko's character in a 90-minute episode. I mean, we spend so much time with him. We spend, what, at least a good 45 minutes in the 90 minutes just focusing on Sisko and his role and how, you know, what we're going to see in this series. You know, we find out his, you know, what his importance is to the Bajoran religion and the faith. You know, the fact that he is there, you know, he ends the episode as their emissary, right?
00:24:30
Speaker
Yeah, we see the tension between Cisco and Picard. We find out that not everybody looks at Picard as a hero. This is the first time we really get to see a ton of fallout from, so front and center in Star Trek. And then, of course, we get the whole reveal of the wormhole, that being where the prophets lived, but Cisco is able to,
00:24:58
Speaker
you explain humanity and linear time and get them to basically allow the wormhole to stay stable, which opens up the Gamma Quadrant. And of course, that sets up so much of what will happen later on in the series. But it was a lot. There's a lot that happened in that episode. Oh, absolutely.
00:25:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's just one of those episodes that just really shows us that DS9 is going to be a complete departure from the truck that came before it. And I was hooked from the moment I watched it. And I still think it's one of the best openings to a TV show. Yeah, OK. I've gone on and a lot about how much I love Emissary. What do you guys think of the episode?
00:25:47
Speaker
I enjoyed it. It's been a while since I've seen Emissary, to be honest, but it was, you know, Star Trek has always had a iffy relationship when it comes to season, not finales, but pilot episodes. I mean, as much as I love Next Generation, the pilot episode was not that great of an episode. It's very rough. Yeah, it is.
00:26:17
Speaker
But yeah, Emissary, for Star Trek, was a pretty good pilot to start this year. And it really got showed what the show was going to be about, I felt. And right from the jump, you understand that this is a different captain. This is a different show. I mean, right from the jump, you know you're getting into something that is not like, it's not your daddy's Star Trek.
00:26:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think this episode really shows us as the audience that Cisco is not someone who is afraid to show his humanity, to be human, to admit that he's not omnipotent, that he's not perfect, that he makes mistakes.
Trust and Betrayal with Eddington
00:27:08
Speaker
He's a flawed individual who is, at the time we meet him at the start of DS9, he is dealing with a lot of trauma.
00:27:17
Speaker
He basically was unable to save his wife from dying. He rescued his son, but he was not expected to essentially be a single father at such a young age. That event changed the person he would become throughout the next few years until his Deep Space Nine assignment and then through the course of the series.
00:27:46
Speaker
his role as a father defined him.
00:27:50
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think it's also fascinating too that he didn't really realize the extent of his trauma. And it was the prophets who actually finally showed him that by, because Cisco even said at one point, why do you keep bringing me back to this moment? And they said, you exist here. And I finally got him to realize, okay, my whole life, everything I've shaped in my life now moving forward has been in this moment. What am I going to do now to kind of move forward so that I can be happy, I can be good for Jake, and I can be good for this new assignment that I have.
00:28:20
Speaker
You know, you pretty much wrote exactly what I had in my notes on that. So. Yes, yes, I I'm glad that you called that out, because if you had and I probably would have. But yes, just, you know, just forcing him to face his trauma head on was. Yeah, it's it's it's interesting. Looking back at things, looking back at that episode now knowing, you know, that what he experienced is trauma, you know, it's.
00:28:47
Speaker
The first time I watched the series I was in my 20s. I had no idea but watching it again Yeah, you start to you you you start to see things a lot differently. Oh Absolutely. Yeah, so Yeah, any any any other thoughts on on an on emissary?
00:29:06
Speaker
I thought it was interesting that they actually brought the whole concept of essentially religion into Star Trek for the first time. It was never really discussed in the original series or next gen. And they didn't really talk about any of Earth's religions, but I mean, they brought the Bajoran religion as this big focus. And it lasted all through the series. I mean, it got a slow start and it really started to build more and more, I'd say, around season four. But it was they developed this whole different kind of religion and Cisco kind of
00:29:34
Speaker
Becoming the messiah basically and then we find out it's almost a predestination paradox if you watch emissary the profits act like they have no clue who Cisco is but we find out in the seven season premiere that Cisco was actually one of his parents was actually part profit.
00:29:52
Speaker
which was a very interesting spin on the whole thing. So the prophets knew all along who he was, so they had to make sure he was created so that way they can have him at that moment in Emissary where they could get his life back on track so he can be the Emissary in the future. Very interesting dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. And it's been so long since I watched it, I forgot about that detail that he was, he has basically,
00:30:18
Speaker
Was it his mother that was part prophet then? Yes, her name was Sarah. And she was a prophet, shared her existence for a period of time so she can meet Joseph. And then as soon as Ben was born, the prophet left her and then the marriage ended. Because she was a different person. Exactly. Than the one that dad fell in love with. And yeah, I completely forgot about that one's existence. So
00:30:45
Speaker
You guys are teaching me stuff that I forgot. Any final thoughts on Emissary? I think it was one of the better pilot episodes overall of all the series. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. It definitely resonated with me as the best. I can't really remember much of Voyager's pilot episode. And Enterprises was good, but it was a little... It was a different type of pilot episode though itself. Yes.
00:31:15
Speaker
Yeah, Mark, do you want to give us your second episode? So I was thinking about this and it's a couple. There's a couple of ones and this because I think it shows how Cisco because this dealt with betrayal and there is by inferno's light, whether the the Cardassians joined the Dominion and kind of really kicks off the Dominion war.
00:31:44
Speaker
And then I think the one though that I like really affected Cisco was the loss of for the cause and for the uniform where we see the defection of Michael Eddington to the maquis.
00:32:00
Speaker
And those, I mean, I think more than anything, you really see how hard Cisco takes betrayal. Like, just so, so hard. And I think even more than, because I don't think he trusted Dukat at all. But with Eddington, this is someone that, you know, he had dinner with.
00:32:25
Speaker
he trusted implicitly this was a Starfleet officer and just you know for him to in his mind betray the betray the uniform like that just was such a a hard thing for him but I picked Inferno's light because I mean this was this was the episode that really kicked off the Dominion War
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think this is really when Deep Space Nine for me really hit its stride like really you really get into the meat of Deep Space Nine. You can kind of tell that this is what the writers were working towards Like this is where they're heading toward, you know, everything that has been leading up to this Something we hadn't seen in Star Trek, right? Right and
00:33:12
Speaker
Yeah. And all of it was peppered in throughout, you know, I mean, we still have our, you know, your classic Trek episodes and your, your, your classic storytelling setups, but yeah, you had all of those little bits peppered in and then it just finally came to, you know, to head. Yeah.
00:33:31
Speaker
I'll never forget. I'm glad that, that those episodes aired before the internet was really big because when they found out, we were watching the episode that night and we found out that Cardastia joined the Dominion. That was such a jaw dropping moment that you weren't expecting, you know. Oh yeah. When he, when he's going, when Dukat's ship turns around and I think it was Kira.
00:33:58
Speaker
Yeah, said, you know, you can't take them all by yourself. And he's like, oh, we're not going to attack them. We're there to join them. It was just like, yeah, that was such a I think I think I not to put this in, but I think doing an episode with you guys on Ducat as one of the best Star Trek villains. Mm hmm. That's a good idea. Yeah, that would be fun, because he is one of my favorite Star Trek villains of all time. Almost even more so than Khan.
00:34:26
Speaker
Yeah, Dukat is just such a nuanced villain and it was a perfect foil for Cisco. Yes. Yes, because they are more alike than than either of them wants to admit. Yeah, exactly. Really? Single fathers. Yes. Yeah, both. Both would do anything for their family. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's yeah, it's it's it's.
00:34:53
Speaker
And that's one thing, you know, as Cisco knew who his enemies were, the basically the entire run of the series, you know, they, you know, because they weren't out charting the stars, you know, they, they knew what to expect. And it was a lot more, it felt more like a chess match, you know.
Strategic Storytelling in DS9
00:35:13
Speaker
throughout the run of the series. And going back to Eddington, I think that's why Eddington's betrayal was so hard for Sisko was he didn't know that Eddington was an enemy. Yeah. And that was something that was not like, you know, it was like putting an extra piece on the chessboard. And suddenly he's...
00:35:37
Speaker
you know, Eddington probably didn't see himself as an enemy of, of Cisco, you know, the whole my key thing to me, it was just fascinating. You know, it's that whole, you know, yeah, it's just in how so many people in Starfleet are just we're just so put off by them. Right. But it was between that and you know, with with the Dominion war and
00:36:04
Speaker
and the Maquis infiltrating Starfleet. Yeah, this show and basic and Trek of the 90s really started to show all of the the cracks in the armor that was Starfleet, you know, you see that as an organization, they hold themselves to such lofty ideals. But there are still people that don't feel like that, you know, that Starfleet is the answer. Yeah.
00:36:31
Speaker
And it was also one of the first times that you've ever seen one of the captains actually become beyond obsessive about a situation. I mean, yes, we I mean, you saw Kirk in the episode obsession where that dichronium creature, he was obsessed about killing that. You see Captain Janeway in Equinox Part Two going after Captain Ransom because of him killing those those creatures to get home quicker.
00:36:52
Speaker
Cisco was actually going to destroy every Maquis colony in the demilitarized zone, poison every single planet until he got Eddington. And that's finally what finally got Eddington to stop and surrender was destroying, threatening that. It's so unusual because I know as the audience,
00:37:14
Speaker
You're always supposed to, you know, side with Starfleet. You know, that's the whole idea. But with the Maquis, I find myself so many times siding with Maquis. Like they're just people who just want to be left alone. They just want their own, you know, and they're put in such a unusual position and such a bad position. You know, you've got, you know, no matter what they do, they're not going to be free.
00:37:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think we could probably write dissertations on DS9, honestly, you know. I think we're creating good episode ideas for the future, just randomly coming out. An episode on Dukat, and if we're going to do an episode on Dukat, we have to do one on Weyoun, right? Oh, absolutely. Oh, oh, I love Weyoun.
00:38:12
Speaker
oh right i mean jeffrey combs yes yeah pretty much everything star trek i think yeah yeah hasn't been on discovery yet he hasn't been on strange new worlds yet or picard or picard well that that that that's a yeah that's a lost opportunity anyway we're not we're
00:38:35
Speaker
We're not going to make excuses for Paramount, but come on, give us some Jeffrey Combs at least once. Absolutely. Mark, you had talked about Ducat and wanting to do an episode on him, and I am totally on board. One of the episodes that I picked, my next one, is a very good episode of DS9.
00:39:03
Speaker
Pretty much, it's kind of a bottle episode. It really only features Sisko and Ducat and a few other the DSI and crew members. But that is, it's an episode from season six, it's called Waltz. If you guys remember, this is the one where Ducat and Sisko are onboard the USS Honshu and they're en route to Ducat's trial for the war crimes against the Federation.
Loyalty in 'The Die is Cast'
00:39:30
Speaker
The Honshu is attacked and destroyed by
00:39:33
Speaker
some Cardassian fighters. And Dukat, he helps Sisko escape the brig where he would just come to visit him and they get on a shuttle and they're able to get to a planet where Dukat actually helps put a splint on Sisko's arm where he had the plasma burns to kind of try to heal him. And it looks like he's taking care of Sisko, but
00:40:02
Speaker
And we kind of find out that Ducat is really as bad as, you know, Cisco thought he was, even though they could relate. And even though they had, you know, they were able to share some of their trauma, you know, over losing family members, you know, Ducat losing his daughter and, and, you know, Cisco, of course, losing his wife, Jennifer.
00:40:25
Speaker
Unfortunately, they are still essentially mirror images of one another with with Ducat being completely evil and and Cisco still, you know, Cisco is still good, but he just isn't afraid again, isn't afraid to get his hands dirty to get the job done. But that still is what separates those two from one another is is Ducat is essentially evil personified. And we find that out in that episode. What do you guys
00:40:53
Speaker
What do you guys think of Waltz? Do you remember that episode? Absolutely. I think it was interesting, obviously, the banter between Cisco and Ducat. I think what really interested me in the episode was not so much the Cisco piece, but where Ducat basically saw himself as a savior of the Bajoran people during the occupation.
00:41:12
Speaker
And in his mind, he was basically this messiah who tried to help them and through all their toils and troubles. And and any time that Cisco would actually try to would go against that, he didn't want to hear it. He just went against this fantasy that he had. And it just seemed to drive him apart more, more mad than what happened with the all being killed. You know, it's just it was just fascinating to see how how he thought of himself during the occupation when billions of people hate this guy.
00:41:42
Speaker
Yeah, it was just it was just really interesting. I mean, we had seen over the years little bits of that building up, but this is exactly where we finally saw that happen. I just thought it was fascinating for it to finally come out and see what the court really thought of his time there and how skewed it is compared to everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to cut is clearly having a psychotic episode, you know, when he sees the the hallucinations of way and he also sees I think the one that really
00:42:11
Speaker
ultimately is the one that sets him off is he sees Kira, Kira in the race, and she's constantly berating him, you know, the hallucination form. And that's kind of, you know, he, that's what actually pushes him over the edge is because, you know, he pulls out a phaser and tries to shoot the the Kira hallucination, you know, with with his phaser. So, yeah, it's it was another good representation of mental health.
00:42:40
Speaker
You know, and I forgot again, I kind of forgot about that being such a heavy part of the episode until rewatching it for this. I promise you, the next one that I chose is not does not have as much mental health related stuff. Well, actually, you know what? No, I take that back. Nevermind. There's obviously a theme here subconsciously that I put together. So before we get to my next episode,
00:43:06
Speaker
Chris, why don't you give us your third highlight episode and tell us why you why you picked that one. All right. So the next one I picked was from the third season. It's called the dais cast, which was actually the second part of a two parter. The first episode was called improbable cause.
Baseball and Leadership
00:43:25
Speaker
And that's when Garak shop was blown up and they tried to
00:43:28
Speaker
find out the particular reasons as to why, and we find out by the end of the episode that the Romulan Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order of the Cardassians joined together with the fleet, and they were going to go into the wormhole and attack the founder's homeworld.
00:43:44
Speaker
So and then we go into the dais cast and obviously Cisco betrays orders. They're supposed to stay in the Alpha quadrant to defend Bajor with the Defiance. But Cisco betrays orders and some in the crew decide to follow him and they go into the gamma quadrant. They managed to rescue Odo and Garak and
00:44:02
Speaker
The fleets were destroyed there are a hundred fifty geminar ships that came after the fleet wiped them out. And the reason why i picked this as a really good cisco episode is i'm very fascinated i love the episodes where you get the characters especially the commanding officers weather they feel as though.
00:44:19
Speaker
their crew members, the people that are basically family to them, are worth more than the bigger picture. And we've seen a lot of that, or maybe somewhat, in Star Trek. I mean, you go back to Star Trek III, I mean, Captain Kirk risked everything and even destroyed the Enterprise just to go back and get Spock from Genesis. And he even says in the movie, Spock says, you came back for me, why did you do this? And Kirk says, because the need of the one outweighed the needs of the many.
00:44:47
Speaker
And that's kind of what happened with Cisco. He was willing to break orders and risk his career and even risk the safety of Deep Space Nine and Bajor itself just to go back into the gamma quadrant to go and get his officer. I just think that that's very admirable of a quality of a commanding officer. And I know it wasn't the biggest theme of the episode, but that's just something that stuck out for me with that, with Cisco.
00:45:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I mean, he cared about his crew. He cared about the people under his command. I mean, you could make a case that every Starfleet captain does, but some definitely show it more than others. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that's, I mean, I kind of left the assignment open for you guys picking episodes, of course. So yeah, whatever makes a good case for you believing that Sisko is a good captain,
00:45:43
Speaker
was fair game. So yeah, I'm not as familiar with this episode either. And like I said, you know, it's, it's, you had a reason for picking it. You, you, yeah, you, you, you brought up a very interesting character trait that, that most Starfleet captains share, but some, again, take it more seriously than others. So yeah. So thank you for picking that up. So Mark, I know you've probably been saving this one for last.
00:46:12
Speaker
Intentionally, I'm certain. My third one is...
00:46:17
Speaker
Take me out to the hollow suite. It's the baseball episode. I like it. I think this is such a good episode for one. It's just a fun episode in a series that is so such a serious Star Trek series. And so, you know, a lot of ways, you know, the more darker at the time, at least the most dark Star Trek series we've had. It was always good when they had these kind of fun episodes like this. Like I think of this one, I think of little green men.
00:46:47
Speaker
that are just kind of fun, fun episodes. And, you know, a big part of Cisco's upbringing and personality that we get from the very beginning, that kind of is part of who he is, is his love of baseball. You know, he always has that baseball on the desk, on his desk. And
00:47:09
Speaker
There's a Vulcan captain that comes to visit, and you find out that they've always been kind of rivals. And one thing relates to another, and they have a baseball game, and you kind of see the Niners, as they're called, as the Deep Space Lion team is called, versus the... What was the name of the Vulcan team? It was the... Is it the logistics? Logistics. Logicians.
00:47:38
Speaker
Well, yeah, something like that logic sins. Yeah But just the fact that you know what he loves about baseball is the unpredictability of it that Every time you throw a pitcher throws a pitch. There are a numerable amount of things that could happen Exactly. And you know, that's again. That's one thing. I love him. That's what the one thing I love about baseball is you know, it's
00:48:05
Speaker
So much thinking goes into it. As a player, if you're a player, if you're a coach, if you're just watching it, depending on what the situation is, you have a man on second with no outs. Do you bunt the situation? Do you go for a hit? If you're a defense, how do you play it? Do you try for a double play?
00:48:29
Speaker
what type of picture, what type of pitch do you pitch if you're the pitcher, all different types of things. And, you know, we see, we finally see this, I think it's the episode where we really see the crew, the D-size 9 crew, all of them kind of come together as a family. You know, we finally kind of see everyone kind of be like, all right, you know, we've, we've seen it, you know, bits and pieces here and there, but this is the one where even, even quark,
00:48:57
Speaker
Is is in is is in you kind of see see him coming in and rom and nog and all of these other You know, you know different people kind of come together and kind of join this become a family and become a team Yeah, yeah, it it unified the whole crew. I mean, you know you had you had you essentially had yeah, you had quark coming in with the forengi interests and his whole crew and
00:49:25
Speaker
You had Kira and the Bajorans, and then you had Starfleet, and yeah, all three of them coming together and finally functioning as a cohesive unit was incredible. One thing I wanted to talk, and this is kind of off, but I still think this is, you know, it's not something that you see in a single episode, is his relationship with Doc.
Diversity and Relationships with Nog
00:49:50
Speaker
And how he kind of has to confront his own biases when it comes to the Ferengi, you know, from the very beginning, you see, you can see even, you know, even says, basically said tells Jake, I don't want you hanging out with him. Yeah. But has to vary, you know,
00:50:07
Speaker
very quickly, you know, realize like, oh, wait, I have, you know, definitely have. And that's what we see that throughout Star Trek, how there are certain race, you know, they're, you know, Starfleet supposed to be so high minded and all this stuff. But yet, one of the first things you see with the Ferengi, you know, first kind of show up in next generation Riker basically says, I don't want them next to me. Yeah.
00:50:33
Speaker
He basically says, I don't want the I don't want their kind next to my quarters. Like, that's kind of racist, a little bit racist, xenophobic. Yeah, I mean, it's and this series finally, you know, broke Ferengi out of the monoculture trap, too. You know, this series gave so much material and so much depth to Ferengi and it's
00:51:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's so much about, it's about profit and that capitalism kind of drives their entire society, but they're still individuals, right? They're still complex. And that's what Star Trek has always been about, right? Is finding the humanity in even the alien races. I like, Mark, how you brought up the,
00:51:32
Speaker
the whole idea of the pitch, right? And then how a thousand different things can occur with every single pitch. That's something that Cisco used in the emissary to explain linear time to the profits, right? Yeah, exactly, yeah. It's a constant metaphor. Yeah, yeah. And it's, yeah, I just thought that was, of all the sports, baseball was the one that
00:52:00
Speaker
was kind of used because it is so much a thinking man's sport. You know, people may call it boring, but I love it. But, you know, that's beyond.
Star Wars Projects and Sign Off
00:52:14
Speaker
Baseball is is very misunderstood as a sport, I think. You know, it we don't get the complexity. No, no. And I always tell like my wife used to always say not to get off topic.
00:52:29
Speaker
Like she was like, Oh, baseball is boring. Baseball is boring. I go, watch it live. Yes. Yeah. And I told her, and I told her, because we first started, you know, going to games, I said, get a program and follow the program, you know, do the, you know, follow like, okay, this is an E3 air, you know, single that will, that will, you know, kick your brain in. You'll, you'll actually watch the game and understand.
00:52:55
Speaker
the complexity of the game and how everything works. That helped her. She prefers watching baseball live than she does on TV, which I actually like to prefer listening to on the radio. I love listening to it on the radio, listening to the announcers and stuff like that. Again, this isn't a baseball podcast. I can do that too.
00:53:24
Speaker
All right. I know you, you have to leave us here, Mark. Yes. Unfortunately, I gotta go pick up my wife here. She just texted me, says I'm ready when you are. I'm like, okay. All right. I know Chris and I have an episode each to go over, but we'll do that without you. Before you drop out, give me or give the listeners just a little tease of some of your other projects that you have going on.
00:53:48
Speaker
Well, of course we have our main show, me and Garrett K. Jones or the Stars a Star Wars podcast right here on GNN. Currently we are going through our review of the Ahsoka series. We just dropped our episode five review and we will be doing the episode six here pretty soon. And we also have our other show with me and my daughter.
00:54:16
Speaker
Star Wars to the Eyes of a Child, it is our YouTube show. War of the Stars is our audio podcast. What War of the Stars is our Star Wars to the Eyes of a Child is our YouTube show. And in it, myself and my daughter, Lily or Cecily, she wants to be called now. She's just turned nine and she's suddenly decided that she wants to go by her full name, Cecily instead of just Lily.
00:54:44
Speaker
Yeah, she's at that age now. She knows what she wants, right? We are watching the Clone Wars in psychological order. In fact, we just recorded our latest episode and plan on having it up.
00:54:57
Speaker
the next few days on the GNN YouTube show and the War of the Stars YouTube channel. Very nice. It goes out. There's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun getting my fandom with my daughter like that. It's been a lot of fun. Yeah, it's great that you guys have the opportunity to share that with one another. And yeah, it's always fun seeing Star Wars from the perspective of the age group that it was written for, right? Yes, yes, yes. Definitely, definitely.
00:55:27
Speaker
Other than that, that's about it. You know, we got our all social
Time Travel and Social Justice in 'Past Tense'
00:55:33
Speaker
media. We are pretty much under just look for war the stars, our face, our Twitter X, whatever it's called now, my Garrett calls it Twix. Yeah. Okay. I like it. Yeah. We're at war the stars one. That's all sort of email. We're the stars one at gmall.com.
00:55:52
Speaker
That's about it. So yeah, very nice. I just gave you a subscribe. Awesome. Yeah, I'll check that out. Definitely. Nice. Well, thanks again for joining us, Mark. Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on. Yeah, yet again. Anytime. Just let me know when you're doing that Ducati episode. Yeah, yeah, will do.
00:56:15
Speaker
I think it might be a little while till we get to that because I do want to actually do this captain series, you know, and do the other captains that we haven't had, you know, that we haven't talked about. So maybe we'll do a villain series then after that. Who knows? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. Thanks again for joining us. I wore the stars and Star Wars through the eyes of a child. Go check out both of those shows with GNN. Mark, we'll catch you next time. Take care, sir. Live long and prosper. You too.
00:56:45
Speaker
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. All right, good night. Okay, Chris, let's...
00:56:52
Speaker
Let's pick back up and you have one more episode to talk about, right? Yes. And now it's not one specific episode. It's actually three episodes, all kind of in one little like three parter. So it was the second season premiere of Deep Space Nine. It started with the homecoming, then the circle and ended with the siege. This was a year after the Federation takes over Deep Space Nine. And basically the provisional government is starting to fall apart on Bajor.
00:57:20
Speaker
And there's a group that forms on Bajor to try to get rid of it. Basically, they're for Bajor for the Bajorans is what their slogan was. It was called the Circle. And what they didn't realize was is they were actually being supplied with weapons by the Cardassians, who they absolutely despised.
00:57:38
Speaker
And so for the course of a couple episodes there, we find out that there is, there's a Bajoran war hero named Lee Nallis, who is rescued and brought back to Deep Space Nine. And basically Kira is removed from her role as First Officer, he's put in
00:57:54
Speaker
But in the process, we find out that Kai Nguyen and one of the provisional government ministers, Minister Jaro, they're all working in collaboration with the circle. And so they have to bring this evidence to basically the provisional government to prove what the Cardassians are involved. And what happens is at one point, the Majorans decide they are going to want everybody off of Deep Space Nine, and they have like 72 hours or whatever to get off the station. And Cisco and some of the Starfleet crew decide, no, we're not leaving.
00:58:24
Speaker
So they evacuate the station, but they stay behind the fight. The members of the circle who are fighting against the provisional government. And that was pretty much what the episode, the three parter was all about. What I really liked about it is, is it showed the kind of growth with Cisco in terms of his relationship with the Bajorans during the first season of Deep Space Nine. There were, yes, there were Bajoran episodes, but not a whole lot about Cisco's relationship with the Bajoran people.
00:58:53
Speaker
And this was really the first episode where we started to get to see how he feels about the majority. He says to Dax in the season premiere, he says, I'm starting to see everything that we've worked for this past year start to unravel. So you can start to see that he's starting to really care about the majority people and what happens to them, not even just about the spirituality, but just the planet and the people themselves, you know, and and that continues to go on because at one point, I think Jake was going to date a majority girl and her father wouldn't allow her.
00:59:23
Speaker
because Jake wasn't Bajoran. And so he kind of had like some racism actually going on as a result of this. And Ben even says to Jake when he's comforting him, I'm sorry that you had to go through something like this, you know? And so we got, again, and just the fact that he decided to stay on the station so that they could actually get the evidence to the Bajoran government that the Cardassians were involved in this whole thing so that things could go back to normal and the government can start to run normally again.
00:59:51
Speaker
It was just a for me. It was just a nice way to see his progression from the pilot Where he didn't even want to be there right with these space niner with or work with the bajoran people Now they're starting you're starting to see where it's going to go the rest of the series where he genuinely becomes a important part of these people You know and what he's willing to do to help these people Yeah, yeah, he he he believes
01:00:16
Speaker
Yeah. He went from a man who, like you said, yeah, did not want to even who'd really considered giving up his Starfleet commission and resigning, you know, to raise Jake. And he gets this assignment on, you know, what he figures is going to be just, you know, a backwater, you know, society. He's kind of being put on the frontier, you know, to be forgotten about. But yet that's precisely where his destiny lie. Yeah. You know, it was on
01:00:45
Speaker
Deep Space Nine near Bajor and being so important to those people. By that point, he had essentially fully committed to his role and everything, the expectations of a father, the expectations of a commander, and the expectations of a religious figure. He's always been a man who walks in three different worlds. Absolutely.
01:01:14
Speaker
Reluctantly or or not, you know, yes Yeah, yeah, no, that's a that's a great that's a fantastic pick Yeah, you like she said you get you got to see his his
01:01:27
Speaker
acceptance of his role to the Bajorans. You got to see him be the father and be there for his son. And yeah, you got to see every aspect of Sisko that makes us love him so much. Yes, it was for the first time we were actually able to see him pushing the boundaries of being a Starfleet officer. He didn't do that in the first season.
01:01:46
Speaker
But as soon as the second season started and he started to see the stakes that were and everything that they tried to do in the last year falling apart. That's when you finally saw the Cisco bit to the point where he's like, OK, I'm willing to break the rules or I'm willing to sacrifice myself for something just for the greater good. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Fantastic pick. I'm going to wrap us up with one of my absolute favorite two part stories in Star Trek, and that's
01:02:15
Speaker
past tense. And I know I had let you let you know that I was going to tackle this episode. I just I love it. I think it really, you know, it establishes how much Cisco was in love with the 20th century. I mean, that's you know, you figure that's when baseball was in its prime. Yeah. And you see that he it wasn't just baseball that Cisco had an obsession with with the 20th century for and that it was also
01:02:43
Speaker
you know, culture and the things that led, you know, the catalyst that led to Starfleet being created was, you know, it was, you know, the sanctuary districts in 2024. So just if you don't remember the episode, you know, those of you that are listening, a transporter accident, San Cisco, Dax and Bashir to 2024 San Francisco in the days leading up to the Bell riots. And those riots were the catalyst for what
01:03:13
Speaker
you know, started to get Earth to start thinking of protecting its people. And you see, you know, the framework of Starfleet is essentially built out of the ashes of the Bell riots. And, you know, as with any Star Trek time travel episode, ultimately, despite best efforts, they ended up embroiled in the events that are going on.
01:03:40
Speaker
And because, you know, Cisco gets involved in a fight in the sanctuary district, his actions get Gabriel Bell killed. And of course, Bell is who the Bell riots are named for. You know, he becomes a martyr, a symbol for the people to rally around. And, you know, without missing a beat, Cisco, you know, jumps in and takes Bell's place with, again, without missing a beat to ensure that he undoes the damage that he caused.
01:04:09
Speaker
And ensures that he has a future to go back to. Absolutely. It's just such a fantastic episode. It's, you know, he always, you know, Cisco always showed that he had a sympathetic heart for social inequalities. You know, he was always wanted to stand up for those who are unable to stand up for themselves, right? Yes. You know, it's just a very, very heartwarming episode.
Listeners' Feedback on Sisko
01:04:36
Speaker
And it shows you that, you know, that
01:04:39
Speaker
Cisco will go to any lengths to right any wrongs that he sees.
01:04:46
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree with you on that 100%. I also love how the episode kind of got mentioned in the second season of Picard, where they actually do go to 2024 and we see some of the sanctuary districts or even little signs that you can see where that was brought up. And you know, one thing Star Trek always seemed to do was kind of predict the future in its own way, especially when it comes to technology.
01:05:12
Speaker
So who would have thought 30 years ago, it was what, the end of 94, early 95 when this two parter aired, you know, 30 years before. And we have sanctuary cities nowadays. And, you know, and it's just unbelievable that they they actually predicted that all those years ago. You know, by the way, if you watch the episode, the date that Cisco and Bashir showed up was August 30th, 2024. We're less than a year away from that event.
01:05:40
Speaker
I know. I know. And I wasn't sure when you mentioned 30 years in Star Trek predicting the future. I had no idea where you were going with that. I thought you might actually mention George Floyd, which, of course, that kicked off an entire movement of social awareness and picking apart social inequalities. And sadly, in 1993, the Deep Space Nine writers room was
01:06:10
Speaker
Probably seeing the the la race riots, you know, and that was their inspiration for writing about the bell riots yet You know yet over 20 years later humanity is still You know committing the same ills that it did in the 1990s, you know in the 2020s, unfortunately You're right. I mean, I never thought about the george george floyd connection. That's really interesting. You brought that up Yeah, yeah
01:06:38
Speaker
The timeline almost matches up. Yes. I know.
01:06:43
Speaker
I know we were talking the last episode about timelines in Star Trek, you know, in us being in, you know, in the 2020s when all of these events are supposed to start happening and, you know, to ensure the Trek timeline, they're happening in different orders, different times, but, and I don't know, I don't think we're any closer to creating Starfleet now, but... No, or Warped God. It's only... Yeah, yeah. I think we've got a lot more things to solve first, but hey, you know, you never know, you never know.
01:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's and you know, I'm not the first person to have picked up on that by a long shot, you know, as far as the connections to George Floyd. I mean, there are there I just, you know, I thought about that while watching the episode and of course, took to Google and I found six, seven, eight articles just on the first page of Google exploring that connection between Trek and George Floyd and
01:07:39
Speaker
Obviously, we're not trying to turn into political show here, but Star Trek has always been about calling out social inequality and social ills and trying to get us to think differently and be more open and kind to our fellow man. And unfortunately,
01:08:03
Speaker
We haven't been beat over the head enough with this message as a humanity, as humanity, as a human race. Right. Exactly. So take that how you will. But, you know, it's I assume if you're a fan of this show, you at least understand what Trek has been trying to teach us for all these years. Right. I would hope that our listeners are, you know, are savvy that way. Absolutely. So yeah. Any, any final thoughts, Chris, on on Cisco and why
01:08:33
Speaker
I don't know if I know he's probably not your favorite star or captain in Star Trek.
01:08:39
Speaker
but any final thoughts to why he deserves to be recognized among the top captains? Just the fact that he's such a flawed character, and you see, he didn't embrace that at first, but finally he did embrace it, and he grew from the traumas that he has been through. I loved Sisko growing up. When Deep Space Nine was on, I started, I was in sixth grade,
01:09:04
Speaker
It ended two weeks, a week before I graduated from high school. So I got to watch him change from who he was in emissary all the way to what you leave behind. And it was just, I've always respected him because he was not afraid to express his thoughts or feelings. He valued his crew. He valued the larger picture of everybody in the Bajoran system, in the Bajoran system as a protector of them, but also as a protector of basically the entire Alpha Quadrant by defending the wormhole from the Dominion.
01:09:34
Speaker
He was just a very strong kind of character that you wouldn't have in a different way than you would have seen like we talked about earlier with Kirk and Picard, the way they would have handled things. They wouldn't have fit on Deep Space Nine. There's just no way he would have. This is just a little bit of a joke, but my honorable mention for Cisco is the first season episode, Q-list for one reason. He's the only human being that's ever punched out Q. You hit me. Picard never hit me.
01:10:04
Speaker
I'm not Picard. Thank you for completing the line. I was. Did you forget the line? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I didn't forget the line. I was just hoping you would answer what the response. Thank you. Thank you. And, you know, it's funny that, you know, that you mentioned that as an honorable mention, I, you know, leading up to us recording this episode, I had asked for some feedback from some folks on and, you know, that are fans of GNN to
01:10:34
Speaker
find out what they loved about Picard. And I cannot remember the person's name, but there was a person who, his response to the question in the post was, you hit me, Picard never hit me. And naturally my response was, I'm not Picard, but I cannot remember his name. But thank you for that
01:10:59
Speaker
And Chris, you know, it comes back around. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Our fans are, I guess, you know, fans of Cisco also like that moment as much as we do. It's amazing to set one little scene how much that's popular with Trek fans. Right, right. So we didn't get a whole lot of comments, but I do want to highlight the couple that we did get.
Episode Closing and Appreciation
01:11:20
Speaker
So to Joseph Madden, he loved how Cisco could scare the crap out of you without even raising his voice. All he had to do was inject that
01:11:29
Speaker
that Cisco growl into a conversation and you're ready to piss yourself. That is a good comment that he made because if you're, I don't know if you remember, but one of the first episodes with Esri Dax, when she was talking to Cisco, she told Cisco that he intimidates Worf. The only person who ever intimidated Worf, not even Picard did, but Cisco does. That's impressive. Yeah. Yep. Yep.
01:11:58
Speaker
And then we had another comment from Brian Downs. He had this to say, Cisco is the only captain of the TNG era that the Borg never bothered. It was almost as if Q warned them about him. Benjamin also walked the fine line between being a Starfleet CEO and the central religious figure of Bajor and succeeded more often than not. He's also the only TNG era captain to conquer an extinction level threat in the Dominion with the use of time travel.
01:12:28
Speaker
or by being forced to be part of the other side. Very interesting. That's an interesting point. I think he meant to say without, I think he meant to say without the use of time travel or being forced to be part of the other side. I think that makes more sense. Yeah. I'm wondering if he's talking about how Cisco was able to convince the prophets to eliminate the Dominion fleet in the wormhole. Is that part maybe what he's talking about?
01:12:55
Speaker
So he, as far as time travel, the only way that Janeway was able to eliminate an extinction level threat in the Borg was by using time travel. That's right. Okay. And then Picard not being, uh, he was able to, or he was only able to beat the Borg by being forced to be part of the other side. Okay. I got that. Yeah. So I think that's what he was saying is that Cisco didn't rely on gimmicks for lack of a better word to eliminate the dominion, to eliminate the threat.
01:13:25
Speaker
Okay. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. So Brian, thank you. And Joseph, thank you for commenting. We appreciate it. Oh, Brian also wanted to let us know that his favorite episodes, the first six of season six, plus in the pale moonlight, emissary and way of the warrior. Nice. Good, good selections. Yeah. I know we picked two of those at least.
01:13:48
Speaker
I'm not sure if any of the other episodes were in that first six block of season six, and then none of us picked Way of the Warrior, but yeah, that's another phenomenal episode and easily could have made any of our lists. Absolutely, yeah. All right, I think that's gonna do it for us for this episode of Captain's Logs and Lightsabers podcast. You guys heard earlier about Mark's shows. Chris, why don't you tell us about your projects?
01:14:15
Speaker
Oh, so I like I've said before, I just have a small little YouTube channel that I do call Pittsburgh's Trek Chat, where I talk about different facets of the of the Star Trek universe, different episodes, different, different topics. I try to get episodes out as much as I can. Just working, working in private practice. It's hard to get episodes out, but I still in the meantime, I'm planning different things that I want to talk about that are going to be kind of fun. So you can just go on YouTube, type in Pittsburgh's Trek Chat and it'll take you directly to my channel.
01:14:45
Speaker
All right, as before I really don't have any other projects that I work on aside from appearing on a couple other podcasts from time to time So for now find me here or or connect with me on social media at just a Disney geek That's pretty much my ID anywhere you look on social media So find me friend me you'll get to see my exploits and such on there but until the next episode of captain's logs and lightsabers and
01:15:14
Speaker
May the force be with you. And live long and prosper. Good night, everybody. Good night.