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Our raw take on affirmative action: Where do Asians and Asian Americans fit in? Part 1
53 Plays10 months ago
Happy new year! We are back! In our first episode of Season 2, we have an honest discussion about affirmative action. We first define it, talk a little bit about its history, and discuss the impact of the recent decision to reverse affirmative action in higher education and what downstream repercussions it may have on Asians in the workplace.
Articles for nerds
Asian American Discrimination in Harvard Admissions
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.euroecorev.2022.104079
Negative action against Asian Americans
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Focus
00:00:10
Speaker
Hi, listeners. Welcome to Healing in Plain Side, All Things Asian in the Workplace. I'm Echo. I'm Jenny. And I'm Doug. Hi. Today we're going to be talking about affirmative action in the workplace and also part of the recent Supreme Court ruling on their decisions on the affirmative action.
00:00:34
Speaker
And to begin with, I have to say, personally, I'm very anxious about talking about this topic itself, given its sensitivity and the complexity. I don't know how about you, Jenny and Duck, about talking on this topic. I feel the same way. I feel like there's a lot of information here to digest, and there's a lot of complexity and nuance here that we hope to convey to our listeners.
Complexity of Affirmative Action Discussion
00:01:02
Speaker
For me, this is something that I'm constantly evolving in as I learn more about it and see how it affects educational institutions and eventually the workplace and how that plays a role in the system overall.
00:01:24
Speaker
I'm with you too. I'm feeling a little bit of anxiety about this topic just because it hasn't really been talked about, at least where I come from, like in the workplace or even at school. Like we've never had a chance to really talk about this from our perspective. And I know we, as in like Asian Americans, we get used as, you know, this like object to be pit against other minority groups.
00:01:55
Speaker
in so that they can support this effort to dismantle affirmative action. So it's going to be interesting to kind of talk about this and awesome.
Meaning and Impact on Asian Americans
00:02:05
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, with that emotion and the feelings, um, abandoned us that, uh, we're going to be talking, uh, so there will actually be two parts of this conversation happening. The first part that we're going to be
00:02:20
Speaker
talking about are merely what it is and what is the affirmative action in the workplace means for Asian Americans and what this mean to us. And then in the second part, we're going to be talking about some of the implications and how we can do with it. So with that, today is going to be our first part. So Doug, Jenny, you also wanted to give our listener a quick description or introduction on what it is.
00:02:50
Speaker
and how we can dive into that topic? Sure. But before we do, I think we wanted to mention that these are our opinions only and they don't represent the organization that we work with. So just keep that in mind as you listen to the podcast. So yeah, let's start with the definition of affirmative action.
00:03:10
Speaker
Yeah, so affirmative action plans are usually in quote, unquote, this is from one of the papers that we're going to be introduced today. I think some of the key facts that has been brought up is it was designed originally to facilitate some of the workplace success for members of groups that they targeted, for example, like women or ethnic minorities. And that has been some of the
00:03:38
Speaker
initial intent when the action has been introduced by the school report back in the history. Okay. And just so our listeners know, there are different types of affirmative action plans. So for instance, there could be an opportunity enhancement program where they provide extra resources to affirmative action plans, but sorry,
00:04:03
Speaker
affirmative action programs. The affirmative action research that we'll be talking about deals with a lot of issues such as gender and race and there are different forms of it. And today what we're gonna focus in mostly is on race and education.
Asian Community's Divide on Affirmative Action
00:04:21
Speaker
Okay. Well, I think we need to address the elephant in the room. So why is it so difficult or why are we feeling anxious about talking about this topic as Asian, Asian Americans? It's very interesting being a Asian living in the States and working the US firm. I constantly has been hearing two voices in my own community.
00:04:48
Speaker
And one voice, it's absolutely pro affirmative action. And in that case is, yes, we should be doing a lot of those preferential support for the target and the race group.
00:05:04
Speaker
And then there's another voice, which is absolutely, this is not what we needed for Asians has been discriminated because of affirmative action. And I sometimes get very, get accomplished the view because some of those voice coming from my friends that I just interact on the daily basis.
00:05:29
Speaker
And for me, it's not that black and white. Jenny, as you mentioned earlier, I want us to have a deeper thoughts and perhaps even like a third voice on talking about this topic. And oftentimes I see this divide happening in the Chinese community, in the Asian community as a whole, which is not something I believe the affirmative action intended to be in the first place.
00:05:57
Speaker
And just to add on to that, I think the reason why it's so politically sensitive is the fact that it's used to kind of pit us or compare us to Blacks and Latinos and, you know, saying what's good for them is bad for Asians and what's good for Asians, it's
Debate on Race-Conscious Policies
00:06:13
Speaker
bad for them. And that's that kind of like, you know, binary view that a lot of people seem to hold, even people in our community as well. Can I just air something real quick? There's, there it,
00:06:27
Speaker
Jenna, you really put hidden on the nail on the head. There is a sense of really anxiousness in me when I talk about this because I feel like there may be things that we say that may come off as
00:06:45
Speaker
anti-black or anti-Hispanic, and that's not the perspective we're trying to come from. It's more so to showcase, like Echo, like you said, there's a different perspective on this where we want things to be a little bit fairer. And because there's limited voices in this discourse, it may come off or may sound
00:07:09
Speaker
anti-minority. And like Jenny, like you said, it makes us become that wedge that really pits us against other minorities. But I think our perspective, or at least my perspective on this is to really showcase that, you know, we just wanted to be treated fairly just like other groups and not to be punished for the things that we do, for our aspirations.
00:07:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And then Echo, you talked about those two views. So the people who are against affirmative action because they think it's unfair, it discriminates against Asians. And then I also heard from the opposite direction where there are Asian Americans who support it wholeheartedly. And they even say Asians don't need affirmative actions. We need to just wait our turn. We are white, we're privileged. So just give all the resources and attention to Blacks and Latinos.
00:08:09
Speaker
So I think that's the view that is a bit, I think, too simplistic. And I think hopefully listeners, if you're listening, hopefully we can go on this journey with us and see what we're trying to convey using a more, I guess, a complex approach to how we view and support affirmative action.
00:08:31
Speaker
What should we do? Should we just start with like, okay, let's just do a quick round robin race conscious policies. Do you support it? Yes or no? Like while you think I can go first at its core, I support race conscious policies. I think you need to incorporate a person's race into, you know, selection promotion, but it shouldn't be the main thing or it shouldn't be the only thing that you look at.
00:08:59
Speaker
Jenny, I'm totally with you in that, you know, there are stories and narratives that people, you know, bring to academia and the workplace. And it's not just like a check mark of what their race is and what they bring. So like to really identify like, you know, high achievers of those who can kind of fit into the program or can do the work within the organization. I think a deeper scrutiny
00:09:23
Speaker
of what they can bring or what they have showcased in their own experiences I think would be something that people want to take a deeper look at beyond race. I think Jenny you use this word really like smartly, it's race conscious policy.
00:09:44
Speaker
meaning we're not saying here we should absolutely consider race as a decision factor, or we should not. But rather, it's conscious about the race. And there's so many things to interpret that race itself, and we're probably going to get into in one of the papers done by Leslie at all in 2014.
00:10:07
Speaker
Whether we want it or not, race is already something that we have in our background, like unconsciously. And it's a matter of like how we are actually treating race in our decision making. And that's probably more important on some of the work that we're getting into.
00:10:34
Speaker
I don't know what's wrong with me today. Why? Can I just air that real quick? There is something that's so jittery. I'm so jittery right now. And I don't know if I'm the only one.
00:10:48
Speaker
Orifice is like because I know it's recorded now because I know last week we were talking about it like I I felt so different about it I know like these other studies have like have just they're just there and it really amplifies what we want to say Yeah, and you know for this affirmative action I totally get it like for folks who are pro it because like there's a historical
00:11:12
Speaker
context for why people of color have been discriminated and there's a reason why these guidelines and regulations have been put in place since the 1960s is because people have been discriminated by people of color and women have been discriminated against this entire time.
Historical and Ongoing Challenges
00:11:32
Speaker
And the fact that we still have these laws or these guidelines from the 1964-65 still kind of says that our system that we have in place probably still is biased, sexist, colorist, and all that.
00:11:51
Speaker
there's a part of us that's I feel like well there's a part of one part saying like when are we gonna end it and the other part is like well we'll end it when things are there's less discrepancy and as we dive into this I feel like there's this nuance of discrepancy and it gets me all excited about it but I don't know why it is I'm so kind of anxious to kind of talk about this because
00:12:15
Speaker
it does highlight something, you know, or within, you know, Asian and Asian American communities. And I feel like, am I not representing them? Am I going to become like this contra person or just be viewed as negatively, if that makes any sense? Who would view negatively? You know, I don't, I don't know.
00:12:43
Speaker
I think it's kind of like, Echo, when you brought up, there's two communities that say, yeah, we're pro-affirmative action in that, yeah, there's certain minority groups that don't get enough or have enough resources. And then maybe others that says, yeah, Asian and Asian Americans have enough resources. Why are we even focusing on them?
00:13:06
Speaker
And I think the things that we're going to have to dive into with like the advantages and the disadvantages groups within the Asian American community, because it's still diverse, right? It's not just from.
00:13:19
Speaker
Saudi Arabia to Hawaii. That's a huge group of people that when we say that they're Asian, there's like South Asian, West Asians, Southeast Asians, Pacific Islanders, that we are so diverse in that, but yet we still check just at least just one of the boxes, right? When we were comparing about race, white, African-American, Hispanic, and Asian. And Asian is, I feel like, Asian is 50% of the world's population.
00:13:49
Speaker
It is the most diverse group too. If just in terms of diasporas and cultures and nationalities within the US, Asian Americans that AAPI label is the most diverse, I think followed by Latino Americans, because they also have a lot of different cultures and diasporas. Yeah. But you're,
00:14:12
Speaker
highlighting a very good point. And I think part of the anxiety that I'm also feeling is because we haven't really had a chance to talk about this. And I think it's the muscle that you have to kind of like exercise. And I know we've talked about it offline a few times, but, uh, you know, this is the first time we're actually airing it publicly.
00:14:30
Speaker
I think even at the beginning when we first started that conversation, I couldn't speak on behalf of you two, but to me, the level of anxiety actually decreased as I'm treating this more from a learning perspective.
00:14:53
Speaker
I wanted to know more about this topic, even though this means I might be completely wrong in my first impression or interpretation of what this matter is, but as I'm learning this
00:15:08
Speaker
this conversation, this topic, I learned so much by even just like looking at different views or points on the study that people have put together, the narrative they have said about this issue and why this matters and
00:15:24
Speaker
why there are certain point of view being raised and again like not to mention like educate myself on the some of the legal term knowledge that I'm probably otherwise will never get into. So for me like
00:15:40
Speaker
probably slightly like a different from what you are speaking to, Doug, is I actually felt like this is probably the right time for us to be talking about this and just treating this as like a learning experience and same for our listeners as well. Like if we all be open to learn what the different opinions really cast on this topic, I think it's one way to get there.
00:16:11
Speaker
Okay.
Negative Action Against Asian Applicants
00:16:12
Speaker
I love it.
00:16:13
Speaker
That might be a good segue for introducing the concept of negative action. So this is what I don't support. So negative action is defined as the unfavorable treatment based on race using the treatment of whites for comparison. And in the context of, this is still in the context of education policy. So negative action against Asian Americans is enforced if the university denies admission to an Asian American who would have been admitted had that person been white.
00:16:42
Speaker
So that is negative action. And I think some people have a tendency to conflate that with affirmative action. And I think that's the problem here.
00:16:53
Speaker
I think the study that you're referencing also brought out some really interesting ideas of certain races that are going to be brought in. There's a certain amount of that they can't go threshold that they shouldn't go across or beyond.
00:17:13
Speaker
In this paper, I think they mentioned that there's certain rules that was passed during the Clinton administration where it shouldn't be more than three times their population within the US. So if Asians were 3%, the most that they can do, the most that can be admitted is 9%.
00:17:29
Speaker
But I mean, these are educational institutions. If you're an educational institution, you want the best and the brightest and who want folks who score the best. Why are you penalizing folks who score highly and do really well? So and I think also I think part of it also.
00:17:49
Speaker
in a way kind of ties into the history of the, I think the Immigration Act of 1965, where it actually did limit the immigration of Asian and Asian Americans, or at least not Asian Americans, but Asians to the US, because they only allowed those who were well educated to actually come over and work. And of course, they limited the unification of families as well too. So partly why like, you know, the Asian population is lower and has grown,
00:18:20
Speaker
is part of the Immigration Act of 1965 as well, too. So if we use that, right, and we apply that, we're always going to get, I think, fewer Asians.
00:18:37
Speaker
No, that's fine. And I feel if we can use that, we're going to just consistently get fewer Asian folks admitted, even if they are just as qualified, if not even more qualified or more strongly qualified. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.
00:19:02
Speaker
Oh, I was just saying on that itself, I like the angle. And this might be something slightly different from what you were describing, Doug. A different angle is I like how they use what's the main source of contention there, which is it's the majority group that we are comparing those minority group to. And oftentimes, when we see
00:19:31
Speaker
uh opinions about like the like people are talking about affirmative action is action against Asians they're having like a discrimination on the Asian itself we need to be clear about
00:19:45
Speaker
the impact of like on Asians, sometimes like often or oftentimes that we hear is Asians are comparing to like white, sorry, to black or Latino populations in this case, in education case. And oftentimes, yeah, like Asians do get more seats than those people due to the merit-based ratings and things like that. But it's this notion that
00:20:15
Speaker
it's the majority group that we're comparing to. And if this person is being identified as white, will they be able to get into that institution? And that's where we see, I love about this paper or this notion of negative action is to compare Asians to the white majority. And this person, if they were
00:20:38
Speaker
identified as why their chance of getting into that institution increases. I think that's the essence of it. Yeah. And the nice thing about the court case was there has been a release of data, of admission data. And one study actually looked at comb through all that data and they built a statistical model
00:21:04
Speaker
And they showed that the preferred model shows that typical Asian-American applicants would see their average admit rate rise by close to 20% if they were treated as white applicants. So I think that's a huge takeaway. And I'm surprised that that's not being talked about in the media. Instead, what is being talked about is, oh, this is good for Asians, but it's bad for Blacks and Latinos. And again, it creates that divide between us and the Black and Latino community.
00:21:34
Speaker
which I think is not productive. Instead, we should be focusing on negative action and comparing Asians to whites. And I think people who support either indirectly or directly white supremacy don't want to have that conversation, and it's easier for them to pit us against Blacks and Latinos rather than whites against everybody else, right?
00:21:56
Speaker
among all, like Asian male is the one get penalized the most for some reason, because I think in the study they have shown, I mean, they didn't talk about the rationale or the reasons, but we know like women actually has become more of a target of the protected group in a lot of those like admission decisions. So somehow that kind of mitigates the impact on Asian female
00:22:26
Speaker
But it's the Asian male part that actually gets the worst. Like Jenny mentioned earlier, if the typical Asian-American applicants see their average rate can rise by 19%, that this number could be even higher for Asian male.
00:22:49
Speaker
Oh, put it on me, Echo. Maybe that's what I'm going to eat this. I'm representing the veils, and I'm like, I'm not sure I can do all of it.
00:23:09
Speaker
Can we backtrack just a little bit? Because there's, I think, work that Jenny's done in the past. And I don't know if you're still doing it now, Jenny. You used to consult to students who were applying to college. Could you talk a little bit, some of them, about some of the work that you did there and what guidance you gave them based on what you knew in this realm already on how to guide them through this education selection process?
00:23:40
Speaker
Yeah, so thanks for reminding me. So I used to consult and help students with their college essays and my students were all Chinese nationals. So all Chinese students coming from China who were going to high school in the US and they needed help with the college application process. And the advice that I would give them is downplay your Asianness in your college application. So don't talk about being Chinese.
00:24:07
Speaker
don't talk about being Asian because that's going to be a penalty for you. So if you can, you know, try and differentiate yourself from things that are stereotypically Asian. So I had several students who I was working with from sophomore year onward, and they would join sports teams and, um, join, um, like after school activities and do, and try and get themselves nominated for leadership positions on those teams to really try and showcase the fact that they're,
00:24:38
Speaker
fighting stereotypes that people have about Asians. So that's the advice that I gave them. It's kind of sad to be told that you have to hide a part of your identity, but I know that, you know, Asian students are just put to a different standard when it comes to admission. Jamie, when you told them that, what was their reaction to that when you said, like, hey, don't talk about your race. Like, try to hide it or be subtle about it. What was their, how do they feel about it?
00:25:09
Speaker
Did they listen to you? Did they feel like they wanted to fight it? Like what was the, uh, how did they, um, yeah. What was the interaction like? You know what? The typical reaction that I would get was, yeah, I know. I know. I know that's.
00:25:28
Speaker
You know, I know I've been told that by my friends, I've been told that by other counselors who've worked with me on my, you know, so yeah, it's, it's something that is kind of drilled into them. And you're definitely not alone there. Jenny, as a consultant, me, even in that paper, they also know this is like, it's a common practice for a consultant to say, hey,
00:25:52
Speaker
downplay the Asianness in your application. I think one thing I also wanted to call out, just reading that paper, seeing the criteria that they had on admitting those students. Of course, academic is the biggest, is the big one that they look at. But the one that actually make a bit of a difference in terms like the decision itself is actually the personal training.
00:26:20
Speaker
rating and in this case I believe it's it's required like an interview by some readers in their interview panel and you will buy in and you will have an interview with this
00:26:40
Speaker
either it could be like a nominee or it could be someone that the school has appointed to can speak to the quality that you needed to get admitted to Harvard. And what they have found out is Asians do not only score worse than whites, but they also score worse than African-American and Hispanics.
00:27:04
Speaker
And it's not, and also like from the other minority groups, they're scoring the least. And it's strongly, I mean, like the rating, the criteria itself is strongly correlated with admission. 84% of white admits score two or better on the personal rating compared to 18% of white rejects. Meaning like this really plays a big rate in terms of the admission decision itself.
00:27:34
Speaker
And to me, this is a fascinating data because the academic rating itself, it's objective. It's raw out there. It's based on your SAT, your other school rating that you had, that you'll be able to improve this over time as you put more resource and energy and effort into it. But this personal rating,
00:27:58
Speaker
On the other hand, it's subjective. It's not even in your control. And oftentimes, I think what gets nicked next is this bias that come into that decision process, whether or not by the process itself or by your interviewers.
00:28:18
Speaker
And so maybe we should just unpack what personal rating is. So personal rating is on a scale of one to five with one being the highest value and five being the lowest. And it's basically rating a person based on how likable the person is, right? Their courage and their kindness and other vague traits.
00:28:40
Speaker
And what do we know about how Asians are viewed on like warmth? You know, the friendliness factor, the interpersonal factor. We've probably talked about, we've definitely talked about this in our previous episodes, but when it comes to personal rating, like ability, Asians typically score. Well, I like Asians. They score less than other races simply because people have this stereotype that Asians are just not
00:29:09
Speaker
likable in a personal. Yeah. And for our listeners, Echo is alluding to this other article about Asian American discrimination in Harvard admissions and how most things were pretty much the same, right? GPA, extracurricular.
00:29:29
Speaker
But one of the things that really stood out was this personal rating that mentioned, that Jenny mentioned, on likeability, courage, and kindness, this vague concept that was kind of also news in this approach to admit students. And this is the thing that was, had the most significant impact for Asians, for Harvard, right? Yeah.
00:29:53
Speaker
But what if someone were to say, well, duck, that's because Asians are not friendly. They are less, what was it, less kind, less courageous and less likable than everybody else.
00:30:08
Speaker
What would you respond to that? Oh, my gosh, I would I would say I beg to differ.
Rejecting Asian Stereotypes
00:30:13
Speaker
I would say like, you know, as a Southeast Asian, like to say you're not courageous, like our families lived through a war, came over with nothing.
00:30:23
Speaker
and started uh you know from scratch and got as far as we did to say that we're not courageous for those who anyone who's immigrated to this country within their generation to say that they're not courageous or they have not taken risks to make it better for their family i think it's kind of laughable to rate asians or even asian americans low on courage okay and i think they have to be in a way i think
00:30:51
Speaker
they have to be in a way maybe even kind or kind to themselves to let them know or to even believe in themselves to think that they can actually go that far. So to indicate that Asians lack interpersonal skills, I feel like
00:31:09
Speaker
those stereotypes are in a way holding on to old stereotypes of maybe Asians as coolies or a menace to Western society who are taking away jobs from white folks who can't speak English. I beg to differ, but our generation is different and our generation is here to stay. And we are competent and likable, courageous and kind. Oh, preach. I don't think I can follow that duck.
00:31:38
Speaker
No, yeah. You come prepared there. And Jenny, this is exactly the reason why I felt like earlier on you asked that question, like, are we support of race conscious policy? Exactly. Like, I felt like in this case, if we continue to use those criteria in our decision making,
00:31:59
Speaker
The utter removal of the race itself wouldn't be the way to do this because we all know those stereotypes still will at play. And the fact that if we continue to use those as a criteria and we continue to use human in our decision making for those admissions decisions,
00:32:22
Speaker
It's going to be problematic. And the way lack of the education, lack of the awareness of how those stereotypes can play into those decisions is problematic to me. Can I just share a real quick story? So, you know, on Facebook marketplace, you can sell stuff. Yeah. Now it's like Craigslist. Um, so you're, you know, you're selling small stuff. And one time I, I would logged on and I realized that there was a rating, like you can rate the seller.
00:32:50
Speaker
So I've sold a few things over the past few years. Like, you know, like if I had an extra sort of, sort of like AirPods or like an extra keyboard, I would just sell it for like five, 10 bucks online. Especially when I was moving. And I looked at my, my rating and everything else was a five-star except for friendliness. I was a four-star. And I was just like, what the F? Because it's not like I go out and I'm like,
00:33:15
Speaker
you know, an asshole, but I'm not like going out of my way to be like, oh my goodness, how are you? How are you? I was very just like, just regular, like, just like, hey, I'm going, are you the person? Here it is. It's 10 bucks. Bye. You know, I'm just like my normal self. But to be dinged on that, I'm just like, that's fucking stereotype. Now I'll beat that out.
00:33:34
Speaker
Well, Jenny, also, what's the baseline for that friendliness rating? Is four already being considered as like a high score? So everything else was five. So I think it's like the value of the thing, the whatever, but then friendliness. I'm like, well, I'm like, Facebook, why do you even need friendliness on on on this?
00:33:56
Speaker
on this app, it's just marketplace. Why do you have to rate people on friendliness? Now I'm intrigued to see what's the friendliness rating on Facebook for Asian sellers versus other races. Very intrigued. I would be curious too, just to know the friendliness of New Yorkers versus Asians. And just by default, because I believe when you were selling stuff, you were probably in New York, right Jenny?
00:34:26
Speaker
Yeah, well, New York and yeah, New York. Yeah. And I wonder if like, if New Yorkers like just got a three and you got a four.
00:34:36
Speaker
No, I don't know, maybe. Knowing that medicine definitely is important. But I won't be surprised if you are rated lower because you're Asian. I won't be surprised. Here's the thing, I know we're joking about this. Out of this, because we're good friends with Jenny, but these
00:34:57
Speaker
these ratings have implications on whether we're viewed as likable, warmth, or competent, right? And how they potentially view, for other folks, view Asian and Asian Americans. Mm-hmm, yep, yep. So bringing this back to the workplace, why do we care about affirmative action or negative action against Asian and Asian American employees in the workplace? Because what could that look like?
00:35:36
Speaker
Yeah, I can probably share a bit about what I have observed over the years as because of this impact
00:35:46
Speaker
from the academia space or the education field, a lot of companies has become more conscious about like, hey, our diversity representation, how we can bring up that number. And a lot of them have introduced diversity goal as part of the diversity initiatives in their company to bring up that diversity representation. And oftentimes that's focused more on women,
00:36:14
Speaker
or black African-American or Hispanic population. I haven't heard any companies will have Asians on that diversity goal.
00:36:28
Speaker
So if I can add to that, I used to do some work for one of the big four, I won't say which one. And one of their main recruitment approaches was actually to use campus recruiting. They would actually get about 90% of their interns and I think
00:36:45
Speaker
of those 90% of interns, like 80% of them will get full-time job offers. Well, if they're doing campus recruiting, or are they recruiting from? They're recruiting from educational institutions, right? So if there's a quota or there's limitations and then
00:37:02
Speaker
those educational institutions, by proxy, there's going to be an effect at some of the larger organizations that utilize campus recruiting. Now, I'm sure like some organizations or most organizations are a little bit more conscious about that.
00:37:24
Speaker
But I'm going to go ahead and go out of my way and say, I would assume that most organizations are lazy and want to use educational institutions as a way to select folks for them. And then they go in and select the best and the brightest of those folks. And in doing so, it kind of perpetuates some of the inequities that are already there within educational institutions. And if we don't fix or highlight some of the inequities there, I think it'll show up in the workplace as well too.
00:37:54
Speaker
So just to play devil's advocate, so you're talking about the pipeline issue, but what if someone were to say, well, duck, then Asians don't have a problem because look at any university, Asians make up a huge chunk of the student population and many of them end up graduating and going to these job fairs and finding jobs at big four, top five. So why are you complaining?
00:38:24
Speaker
I mean, that's a great point, right? And we take a look at those companies, right? Those consulting organizations and even big tech companies, and Echo, feel free to chime in on this. We see a lot of Asian and Asian Americans in the entry and the mid-level positions.
00:38:47
Speaker
But you know, what's kind of interesting is that we actually don't see a lot of Asian and Asian Americans in top leadership, specifically CEOs or board of directors. So what is going on with that? If we do have this amazing pipeline, where is that leakage to the top? Where is that leakage to upper management and top leadership? Because
00:39:14
Speaker
We're not seeing them when we take a look at Fortune 500 CEOs or board of directors or folks up top. Can I chime in just a ways like a different hiring approach that's seen this take place these days? So doc, I think what you mentioned there is like just general campus recruiting, recruiting like in here at a pipeline issue for
Overlooked Asian Representation in DEI
00:39:40
Speaker
some of my artists representing in the workplace and
00:39:44
Speaker
I believe some of the companies already noticed that they have taken actions to have more of a diversity hiring strategy, meaning they will go to non-targeted schools and they will go to some of the school with certain demographics. And in this case, oftentimes it's African American and Hispanic.
00:40:07
Speaker
But that's more on the internet roles and you're talking about campus recruiting. There is the first role that those kids get out from the grad school or from the from the cottage. I think the issue more for Asians are more of in the leadership roles where I am aware that some of the companies having all those diversity
00:40:31
Speaker
states in place. They wanted to make sure there's a diverse representation of that candidate's pool before they can bring them to an interview panel and then like later on offer them a role eventually. And that's usually talking more at senior level roles. And oftentimes what we know is when they define diversity or diverse states, those are not including
00:41:01
Speaker
like Asians to be frank. And so some of the quantitative they made is, as long as this diverse state has a woman, or as long as this diverse state has an African-American or Hispanic, that's their diversity means. And so Asians have never become a target group to be considered in that state.
00:41:27
Speaker
that I see as a bigger problem for Asians compared to like a campus recruiting itself. Yeah, I think one thing there also to mention on that particular one, I know a lot of companies setting those diversity goals as an aspiration goal for them to reach that diversity representation. I just hate to miss
00:41:50
Speaker
when Asians are not even in that dialogue, even knowing like some of the genesis of affirmative action is to bring all the minority groups on the same starting line there. And I just feel like Asians has always been left out in that case because we were considered as doing fine, we are the
00:42:13
Speaker
role models and you're already being able to name that job, why don't you even bother to reach another goal here? And using a lot of companies using this so-called quota system as a mean to that goal, meaning like, hey, we need to increase this representation for certain population by this year. But to me, it's just so
00:42:43
Speaker
Like so single sourced, if we're talking about like we have different venues to get to that goal, this is just one of nothing like ineffective. It's actually been very effective for African Americans in the Hispanic population and some of the other minorities. But is this the only means that we can get to that goal? Is that the, it's just to me like that has been
00:43:12
Speaker
considered too simple of a solution. Well, I wanted to go back to what Doug was saying about like campus recruiting and then it relates to what you just said, Echo, was it's not just, so if you just look at Asian Americans as a whole, then yes, we're overrepresented. And of course, we're going to make it into the pipeline until we hit the leadership level, right? But if you start to parse it out and you look at like Southeast Asian
00:43:41
Speaker
for example, they're underrepresented. So if you are, let's say, Hmong, Cambodian, or Vietnamese-American, I would say affirmative action should apply to them in the admission process, in the entry level, because they are an underrepresented group. But perhaps it might not apply to people like me or you, Echo, because we're Korean and we're Chinese, we're overrepresented as a whole. But again, I think it takes that
00:44:11
Speaker
kind of complex approach of not treating all Asians the same. And then going back to what you said about Asians not being included in DEI practices, well, let's talk about how that makes us feel. I think we briefly mentioned this in one of our earlier episodes about when I go to a DEI panel, and I'm saying DEI panel, so this is inclusive of everybody, and they talk about all races except for us,
00:44:41
Speaker
or talk about the underrepresentation, the marginalization, but don't include Asian Americans or Asians. I'm like, I kind of tune out because I'm like, okay, you are one of those people who view us as your enemy. Like we are the group that you don't want to include. So that's kind of how I feel when I see policies like that. But we can get to like some of the more nuanced ways in which I support affirmative action in the workplace, but not at the expense of leaving out Asians, especially, you know,
00:45:10
Speaker
when it comes to like leadership positions. Jenny, if I can piggyback off of that, I would say like my feelings on that when I feel like we're left out is I'm kind of frustrated. And I feel the incumbency is upon me to explain and kind of teach
00:45:30
Speaker
And when I have the energy, it's great. But when I don't, it's kind of frustrating because I feel like this is a systemic problem and I'm an individual. So I'm trying to take a look at the different levels of the way I'm trying to approach this. And I feel like even me as an individual trying to change or educate a certain amount of people, it won't be as effective unless I can somehow
00:45:56
Speaker
play a smaller role or play some sort of role into the system. Because if I do it at the individual group level, it's not gonna make it very far. And- It's exhausting, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's just exhausting, it's frustrating, and it feels like it's the same kind of conversation over and over. But I'm trying to, as you bring this up, I'm trying to renew this patience, right? And like Echo mentioned, I think earlier,
00:46:24
Speaker
I'm also taking it as an opportunity for me to learn. So when these opportunities come up for these DEI panels at other organizations or even our professional conference SIOP, I'm going to really highly consider it because I feel like we're going to have to make that change, whether we do it at the smaller group level or the organization level at SIOP. We're going to have to have a multi-prong approach to this to have some sort of effect within our lifetime.
00:46:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's actually a really good segue to end today's section. And we will have part two on continue to talk about some of the implications that you mentioned there, doc, on how this makes us feel, how can we deal with this
00:47:16
Speaker
And some recommendations and some ideas that we have. So I know this can be a depressing topic. And at the end of the day, you know, I think we're all in this together, whether you're Asian, Black or Latino. And I think it's helpful to figure out a way, well, how do we have this conversation and kind of shy away from that zero-sum mentality, which is, I think, a big issue with affirmative action?
Call for Unity Among Minority Groups
00:47:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:40
Speaker
Can I add one last thing to this? Gosh, my feelings on this is people of color, black, Hispanic, Asian, and women
00:47:53
Speaker
We've all, we have been talented and competent. I just wish the system that we're living within would recognize that. And I think maybe it's incumbent upon us as the co-hosts of this podcast to amplify this message that we're here to stay and, hey, recognize us for who we are. Yeah, preach, Doc, preach.
00:48:23
Speaker
ChatGVT has written us another haiku for this episode. And Echo, would you close us out by giving us that haiku? Sure. It quotes Johnson's thought. Asians tendons bloom and thrive. Affirmations light. Ooh, I love it.
00:48:44
Speaker
I love it. Thank you for that. Thanks, Chachibiti. Yeah. As always. Don't take our jobs, but you don't continue, right? Meaningful haikus. Yeah. Great. Well, thank you for tuning in to Hidden in Plain Sight, your podcast for all things Asian. Catch us on the next one where we will continue this conversation.
00:49:14
Speaker
you