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Our raw take on affirmative action: Where do Asians and Asian Americans fit in? Part 2
46 Plays9 months ago
In part 2, we continue our conversation about affirmative action, but in this episode we focus the dialogue on actions that we would like to take in light of the new ruling and what we can do to help make the workplace more racially equitable.
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Transcript
Introduction to Affirmative Action Discussion
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome listeners to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. I'm one of your co-hosts, Doug. I'm Echo. And I'm Jenny. Today's topic is a continuation of last episode's topic, which was on affirmative action in the workplace and our views on it, some of the frustrations we feel. Today's episode is going to be a little bit more positive because we'll focus on what we think are next steps
00:00:29
Speaker
or we would like to see around how affirmative action is treated in the work process. I was just saying, I think I shared in last episode, the more that we unpack this topic, the mess of anxiety or the anxious that I felt about this topic. And I think it's going to be super interesting you tap into today's topic, given how relevant our own work can also shed some light on
00:00:56
Speaker
how we view this topic and how can we also make some recommendations on the organization itself.
00:01:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Stigma and Performance Impact
00:01:07
Speaker
No, Echo, you shared with us a really interesting paper, the one that was written by Leslie et al. in 2014. Again, the link will be in the description. And this paper was on the stigma of affirmative action and how stereotypes related to affirmative action can impede performance. So I think that's a very interesting article to talk about why
00:01:33
Speaker
you never want to just hire someone based solely on their race. Yeah. And, uh, I don't know if you wanted to do quite like the introduction to that paper itself, Jenny. Well, let's do that. So, uh, so the paper was on, uh, affirmative action plans, um, in the workplace and how its designation or its perception can potentially be negative for minority members.
00:02:04
Speaker
And so they did a meta-analysis on different studies that look at affirmative action plans to determine if there was an effect on how people perform.
00:02:16
Speaker
I think one thing I have find it's fascinating is particularly I think they looked into the linkage between the perception of affirmative action plans in the workplace and the subjective performance outcome that those people are having. And I think one of the things that I brought up is the existence of those affirmative actions
00:02:42
Speaker
can stigmatize the target group, meaning like some of the minority groups, women and other racial minority groups, and also like decrease their perceived performance outcome. And they have explored some of the mechanisms, including some of the stereotyping content that
00:03:08
Speaker
contribute to that decrease in their performance outcome itself. And for our listeners, I think this is a topic that we spoke about in the past with the stereotype content model where we take a look at warmth and competence of groups of people. And for the stereotype threat work that we talked about was with Steele and maybe Steele and Aronson where we talk about
00:03:34
Speaker
how there is this fear of confirming a negative stereotype of oneself within the situational context.
Preferential Treatment: Weak vs. Strong
00:03:45
Speaker
Of course, this then applies to the organizational context when you're hiring someone through an affirmative action plan.
00:03:52
Speaker
and how the perceptions of that may be depending on whether there's a weak preferential treatment or a strong preferential treatment. And I think if folks within the organization kind of know what type of preferential treatment there is, there may be a more negative view of those who are brought into the organization through that affirmative action plan.
00:04:20
Speaker
I think it would be helpful if we provided an example. So let's say you are a minority person who gets hired into a leadership role and we can fill that blank in with anything. So you could be a woman, you could be a black or Asian or Latino professional. You're some type of minority role or you're some type of minority and you get hired into this leadership role. The assumption is that a lot of people might think
00:04:48
Speaker
We're going to think, oh, you only got that role because you are a minority. You only got that role because you are a woman or black or Latino or Asian. And the person who gets hired into that role could be aware of it explicitly, consciously or not, but that they're going to have to fight against that bias that people have about them. And that could potentially affect how they show up in the workplace. Yeah.
00:05:18
Speaker
can I pull us back just like duality that in a w of color and as high achie like we sometimes feel li serious because there is
00:05:35
Speaker
that there's this meta-process where we think this person thinks that we're that or we think that this person thinks that we only got this because of our race or our gender or different other statuses that we may hold. And it's kind of frustrating because I would say like for me I would say I kind of feel it both ways if that makes sense because if you get to a certain point you want to contend with that and prove that wrong right and say like hey I didn't get here just on
00:06:05
Speaker
XYZ alone. But then there's also a part of me, and this is me maybe just airing or bringing my awareness to my own racism that's within the system that I'm in a way embedded in, is that sometimes I may actually question that myself as well, too, of other people of color. Did they get there because of their race?
00:06:30
Speaker
And of course, as I learn more about this, like, and it'll echo alluded in the past is that, you know, this is all a learning experience for this is that I did not want to break it down to like, was it because there was a strong pressure treatment? Do they get it because of, you know, a tipping, a weak treatment or a weak preferential treatment where it's a tip or if they have the same qualifications, person of color, the person that's underrepresented,
00:06:55
Speaker
got the opportunity? Or was this just something that was just something that was just an enhancement opportunity for those who just didn't have the opportunity? And I think as I think more about that, I try to, gosh, I don't know how to convey other than like, it's not as black and white as I think most people would see it. And I want to keep in mind that
00:07:26
Speaker
Gosh, Jenny Echo, I feel like I'm a racist when I say this. I feel like because I've kind of learned from the system and I probably have perpetuated this in a certain sense myself. And there's a part of me that feels kind of guilty about this. I mean, you and I both, I think we all contribute to it, right? And that's why, and the fact that we haven't really had a chance to really talk about this from the Asian perspective,
00:07:55
Speaker
No, I think that exacerbates it. But the reason I brought that up was because I know for us, you know, well, let me ask the question, like, if an Asian person were to be hired into that leadership role, do you think they would face the same pushback as, let's say, a Latino or a Black person who's hired into, like, a leadership role? Like, would they face the affirmative action stereotype, do you think?
Asian Inclusion Challenges in Diversity
00:08:36
Speaker
I would assume yes. It might look slightly different. The content of how it manifests might look slightly different, but I think they would. And I think the interesting part there is, even in our last episode, I have mentioned some of the companies have only targeted certain minority groups to be their diversity goals.
00:08:56
Speaker
Asians in this case are not even part of this like a diversity goal representation plan and that kind of gave us like a free card on like hey if you made it to that top that means it's all you it's all your own competence made it you to be successful but then
00:09:19
Speaker
On the other hand, if we did actually end up having Asians or having the companies including those diversity goals, which includes Asians as part of the conversation, then I'm very worried the same stigma will apply to Asian or similar
00:09:41
Speaker
implication that might have on Asians, because now you quote, unquote, even though we're talking about from an action, like oftentimes, like Asians were not part of that conversation. Jenny, I would say, like, going back of your that last question, there's a chance I may judge them more harshly. Oh, you would judge Asians more harshly. Potentially, because I mean, knowing that it's
00:10:12
Speaker
The pool, the applicant pool, may be saturated, right? And the role qualified, and they get through, and I find out, if I find out there was preferential treatment, whether to be strong or weak, there's a part of me that's gonna question, like, do you know what it is that you're going to do? I would say, like, that's definitely in the back of my mind. I don't wanna rush to judgment, because I feel like, in a way, in the past, I have to prove to myself, too,
00:10:42
Speaker
And Echo and Jenny, I don't know about you, but like, you know, talking with my mom and other, you know, brothers and sisters, the mentality that I've kind of been just has been passed on to me is that you're just going to have to work harder. And I wonder if like I.
00:11:01
Speaker
I know I perpetuate that. I know I perpetuate that with my nieces and nephews. And in a way, as I'm speaking this out loud, I'm wondering if I'm doing it unconsciously with other Asian, Asian-American applicants that get into organization, whether I hold them to a higher standard, just like the system does right now. And there's a part of me that's out questioning my racism within, my learned racism
00:11:31
Speaker
within this process. Do you think having or not having a lot of Asian representation at the leadership level may exacerbate that? Because now you're just like one of the only few Asians and you better do well. You better be qualified because I'm watching you as an Asian-American. Do you think that's playing into it?
Tokenism and Representation in Leadership
00:11:53
Speaker
Echo, feel free to chime in. I'm going to answer this first. I would say absolutely. I wish there were more Asians out there in leadership where I can say, man, this person is just average. They're okay. And maybe somebody else is like, okay, they're really good and they're a lot better than this average person. And then I want to say like, man, this person could be a lot better. I wish we could replace this person without like,
00:12:16
Speaker
Like I want to be like more judgmental without really like pulling down Asians, if that makes sense. Like I wish there was more so I can say like, this person does this well, does that well, but doesn't do this well. Or this person is just like told incompetent. And I like be judgmental on that without like being judgmental on the race, if that makes any sense. I wish there were more diversity in that when I judge one person who's in that top position that
00:12:47
Speaker
that it's not just on just their race, but more so them holistically. And I know if I were to be openly judgmental on that person, it could be that, the self-hate. It could be that it's viewed as anti-Asian or anti-affirmative action. And here I am just trying to be a little bit more realistic about it. If there were more representation, it would allow me
00:13:16
Speaker
to kind of classify folks into different sets of competencies. And that would be nice. So in a way, we are, I think it's the same struggle that other groups of color have with tokenism. It's a lot of burden to carry.
00:13:36
Speaker
if you know that you're the only person representing your group at that leadership level. I think that's definitely something that Asians share as well. There was an Asian leadership that I had met in my previous work settings where this person would get pushed out from the role that they hired for because
00:14:03
Speaker
being seen as like a failure to be able to do their job well. It's a leadership role. And I had this conversation with this person and it was like a really hard to hard. Like I share like how important to have like Asian leadership at the top and like this person's departure to me like personally like means a lot.
00:14:30
Speaker
in terms like I feel so sorry for this person. And what I got in response back is like, oh, I feel so sorry, Echo, that I have failed you. At that moment, my heart just like, no, you didn't fail me. I don't know if it's the system actually failed us as a connected group.
00:14:56
Speaker
But itself is like, I can see this person holding on a lot of pressure to themself in that role. And that's what Doc, you just mentioned there, just brought me with that fresh memory. I think that's a really, really beautiful exchange. And I don't think it's going to be problematic. We didn't mention names, but I think that just makes it human. I love it. I love it.
00:15:25
Speaker
Not leader-like, not likable, not warm, not confident. Yeah. Which is very frustrating, right? Because it's like... Yeah. Well, we don't want this effort to be too depressing. So, you know, I know we are talking about, you know, implications and, you know, some like recommendations that we think might be worthwhile. Should we kind of talk about that?
00:15:57
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think like this is like, I think one of the highlights of this episode that we have is that, you know, we now get to come up with solutions and the problems that we see. So if you've listened carefully from the last episode, it was probably kind of stark and kind of depressing. But I think this episode will be really interesting because we get to kind of imagine what the new world could be if we were to implement some of these things. I'm actually really excited to talk about this.
00:16:25
Speaker
So let's start with the entry level position or, you know, entry into the organization. So how do, like, if I am sitting in HR, you know, what sort of policy would you recommend that organization or that person sitting in HR recommend or use when it comes to hiring diverse talent?
Quotas and Diversity Goals Debate
00:16:50
Speaker
So should we not target them at all? Because if we don't set quotas or goals, then it's going to be the status quo, business as usual. I mean, we should have a target. I guess my point is having a goal, having a diversity representation goal itself, that means itself is problematic. We should have target group for preferential support
00:17:19
Speaker
But I don't agree that having setting a diversity goal, meaning an AKA quota system, is the right way to go. I kind of love this because I feel like Echo is articulating this nuance aspect of like, hey, the number shouldn't be the only thing that we're going for, right?
00:17:44
Speaker
And it's such an interesting balance for us to have is that how do we find this middle way of bringing this diversity, but then also not pigeonholing folks, African-American, Hispanics, and Asians, and of course, within Asians, to be able to disaggregate all that into different groups of Asians and make sure that we have that representation
00:18:10
Speaker
And I think that's a really complex, you know, thing that HR has to deal with. I'm not sure if there's a, you know, a correct answer. So maybe it's like for us, it's a, how do we
00:18:31
Speaker
Yeah, like Jenny, like you said, how do we make it continue to make it more diverse? I would say for Asians, if you're looking at recruiting Asians, just aggregate some of the data and know what the, you know, maybe some of the dominant groups are. And if you're looking to diversify that, Asians, they're, you know,
00:18:50
Speaker
You can be classified from anywhere from West Asian, so Saudi Arabia, Middle East, all the way to Pacific Islander. So it's a wide array of folks and a lot of folks in between those pieces of land. And I'm worth echoing that when you bring them in, I hope there is a system of support
00:19:16
Speaker
There just can't be a, hey, now you're in now, go do your work and make sure we outperform everybody. That is just so unfair and unrealistic to then put a group of diverse folks together and you know they're gonna argue and then bring the best out of each other, but then to not give them that support. I think like organizations sometimes forget that in that, hey, if you're gonna bring in a diverse group of people,
00:19:44
Speaker
give them that support, encourage them to work together to bring the best out of each other. You can't just put a bunch of diverse folks together who are going to bring their viewpoints, bring their perspective and experiences and expect everything to work out all the time.
00:20:00
Speaker
as leaders of an organization, they need to be able to add that support in there as well, too. The conflicts are helpful, but the organization support, whether in terms of workload management or ways to help approach certain problems, can facilitate some of this. And I wish that
00:20:24
Speaker
they see it as this long process and not just like this segmented and like, hey, we have enough people. Why aren't we producing or doing better work than everybody else? That's not how it works. I would actually
00:20:41
Speaker
disagree with Echo. I think quotas, you need quotas in a sense that you need to measure it. You need to know that, okay, this year we hired, you know, 6% black, you know, let's say 5% Latino and like 10% Asian. You need to be able to say next year we want to increase that to XYZ.
00:21:00
Speaker
So setting targets and measuring that against yourself year to year, I think that's important because if you don't, you're going to end up with a workplace that is majority white. Yes, maybe Asians at the entry level.
00:21:15
Speaker
But unless you actually have diversity goals, I don't think they're going to be making much progress. And I believe that it is systemic. So it's about getting schools to admit more students of diversity and providing resources to high schools to get
00:21:36
Speaker
these students ready so that they can be competitive in the admission process. But that's a systemic approach. I'm talking about what can an HR person do? Should you have diversity goals? Should you establish quotas? And I actually think that you should. But you also can't just say, well, we only hired her because she's a woman. You really have to be thoughtful about looking at the person's qualification
00:22:02
Speaker
And like you said, Doug, like giving them the support that they need. And if it means giving more support for diverse hires initially, when they joined the company, I think I support that a hundred percent to get them to be on the same playing field as, you know, their white counterparts. And that includes Asians, that includes especially the Southeast Asians. So I think when it comes to like entry level positions or just like selecting people into the organization, you should have
00:22:30
Speaker
diversity goals. And the way you incorporate Asians into that is for, is to measure like, who are the underrepresented Asian groups? Can I also add another? This is like a debate. A reason why I am against to have a quote assistant there.
00:22:53
Speaker
And also, I completely understand where that coming from, Jenny. In this case, I don't deny there are some benefits to have a quota system, including Asian. The impact is immediate.
00:23:09
Speaker
My worry in the lack of maturity, how the organization be able to manage those diversities, adding the pure quota system going to complicate things like, for example, that stigma that we just brought up. For example, like how people are going to view this quota that being placed on this population. And the third one that I was trying to add there is
00:23:35
Speaker
I'm worried there's gonna be place more of a zero sum game for some people if we stick to this quota system because the number itself, it's just gonna be, you're gonna continue to see like Asians are being like increased their number, African-American, Hispanic, they're all gonna increase their number and the whites are being seen like no representation. It to me, it's a number game
00:24:02
Speaker
going to be continued to see as a zero sum, but as a matter of fact, it's not. It's not this group decrease versus this other group is increased. There's more complexity to it. I hate to use such a simple
00:24:17
Speaker
solution to mask all the complexity and nuance to this picture. Instead, what I'm proposing is when you have a diverse slate during the hiring process, instead of having a final quota,
00:24:32
Speaker
you should actually introduce a diversity slate of candidates pool. So I'm using quota interchangeably with diversity goals, and you should have diversity goals for when you hire, when you present, you know, slates, but you should also have diversity goals that you have to, you know, measure. Quota assessment means you need to have 10% of Asians in your working force.
00:24:58
Speaker
What I'm speaking here is during the hiring process, when you're reviewing your candidate's pool, you make sure there's a diverse representation of that pool itself, that including Asians. But when it comes to the hiring decision, it can be a white, as long as you make sure the decision is because of their skills, is it because they have the talents that they needed for this role, and they're a better fit
00:25:26
Speaker
then the the rest of them, the candidates you have. So what I'm proposing there is having more of a measure to the process itself, not to the final outcome. But we do have that process. Like usually a lot of companies will say, get me a woman, get me, you know, the most qualified black, Asian, whatever. But they almost always end up going with the majority, which is, you know, white man or someone who's white.
00:25:54
Speaker
And I think that's the process is rigged. It doesn't matter how diverse your candidate pool is. Usually they end up going with the person who fits the majority group. And that's one of the reasons why. Fix that process. Fix that process. It's the process that's problematic. You can't really determine the outcome.
00:26:13
Speaker
During that process, so what I'm saying is, for now, during that process, to fix that process, it means you have to train everybody. You have to have oversight. You have to do bias training, and you have to measure that. And you have to also measure that, too, HR goals. And that's why I think a quota system actually forces you to kind of have that conversation. But I don't think you should just hire someone, like just establish a quota and say, that's it. You have to have a strategy behind that quota and say,
00:26:43
Speaker
The reason we have to establish this baseline goal is because there is this bias in the system among gatekeepers that's so strong that we have to mandate these goals. And Europe has done that. And they've actually increased at least for gender, not for race. And they have over the past five to 10 years dramatically increased the number of female leadership just through using the quota system.
00:27:10
Speaker
And that's why I think the US should start using that. I mean, the government is never going to mandate that, but I think companies can start thinking about like, you know, we have to have diversity goals and we have to meet that.
Should Corporations Adopt Quota Systems?
00:27:21
Speaker
And if we're not tracking it and comparing it year to year, that's not going to change. We've been having this conversation about race and gender. You know, it's 2023 and there's a reason why we haven't made much progress.
00:27:34
Speaker
Because we're not measuring them. And measuring the outcome, doesn't you call to have quota assistance? Measure and parameters. So you have to measure it, but you also have to establish parameters. You can't just say, oh, this year we only had 2% diversity. Next year we had 2.5. OK, we're measuring it. No, I'm saying you have to measure it, and you have to establish parameters. Oh, I need.
00:27:58
Speaker
I think this is great that we feel strongly about and I feel like all these little things matter and it kind of showcases, in a way, our back and forth of this showcases the nuance and the complexity.
00:28:13
Speaker
of these things that we want to put in place to make things fair. So there's part of me that's kind of laughing. I'm like, yes, we agree on this. We disagree on that. And I think it's actually quite a lovely thing. And we're so energized about it. And I think hopefully our audience is, too, because there's so much nuance to this, right? If we were Google, let's say we had all this money in the world
00:28:38
Speaker
To do all this, there's a lot of things we can put in place. But you know what? A lot of organizations are small, right? Those have to follow affirmative action. They only have to be larger than 50 and they're getting money from the government through grants or contracts and whatnot. And I think it's like at least 10K. And now they have to follow EEOC guidelines. Some of these organizations may be very scrappy. How do they make it work?
00:29:07
Speaker
versus how a much.
00:29:09
Speaker
larger multi-billion dollar or multi-trillion dollar organization works. I think there's gonna be different approaches to each one of those. And I think it could be a mix of all the things that we're talking about, right? With the, should there be a quota system and whether there's a quota, or should there, should we implement that? Should it just be a goal? If we don't meet the goal, what does that mean? And so on and so forth. And whether we're providing support for all this. So I love the fact that we're,
00:29:39
Speaker
broaching all these topics, but it's so complex and nuanced for all the different organizations out there that I think they are going to have to have a, I don't want to use this, come to Jesus moment, have a very
00:29:56
Speaker
a deep conversation about how it is they want to approach this to do it in a legal and a very fair way. I think it's not upon us, us three, to solve all their problems, it's upon them to do it. I think what we're doing is we're just bringing all the little nuances out there. I love it. I love it. I love it.
00:30:44
Speaker
Just to add on to that, so when you apply for a grant from the government, they actually ask for a quota. So when you apply for an NIH grant, they'll ask you what percentage of your population is going to be women? What percentage are you aiming to be black or Asian or Latino? You have to specify those
00:31:03
Speaker
goals. And then once your application gets approved, when you provide your report, you have to give them an update. Did you meet that quota? Did you meet that goal? So that's what I'm arguing for. Is it realistic that corporations are going to do that? Probably not.
00:31:19
Speaker
but that's the only way you're gonna really get traction. One thing I do think there's a benefit coming out from that quota system is you actually making that goal to hold the organization accountable for certain things. What I against that though is I almost feel like this is very arbitrary to determine that quota
00:31:47
Speaker
And it's almost like you're determining the outcome without considering all the nuance that happening in the system. So I stand by my support for not having a quota system, but rather having preferential support for the groups that you need.
00:32:06
Speaker
based on their need, actually. Because I've also been through certain development programs in firms that design for Asians, but they're not tailored to support my own need as an Asian. We've seen that happen. But that's a different topic. Yeah. Echo, I hear what you're saying with that. And there's a part of me that I agree with that. And I agree with Jenny as well, too.
00:32:35
Speaker
sometimes like it needs to be mandated and it's frustrating because i think uh... you know sometimes in a smaller organization if you start out with a mostly white or all-white uh... leadership and you know you're you know that that organization is in a very diverse uh... part of the u.s. whether it be the northeast or the you know and your silica uh... silicon valley and
00:33:03
Speaker
You know, you said there isn't, that talent isn't there. It's really just unbelievable to hear, to know that somehow this organization is in, let's say, San Francisco or Mountain View or New York or Chicago, and you somehow have no people of color.
00:33:23
Speaker
And they'll say, well, bringing other diversity comes in different ways, different factors. There are uncles, there's brothers and sisters. And it makes me laugh. Look, we are not lacking uncles, brothers, and sisters. What we're lacking is people of color in top leadership. Let's not get around that or try to run around with that. And it's very frustrating because I feel like sometimes even I can't say it.
00:33:51
Speaker
You know, unless I'm here with you both in broadcasting this on our show is that, you know, if you organizations if you feel that diversity is valuable, make it a prerogative of your organization to bring in people of color, bring in women into your leadership positions.
00:34:12
Speaker
Otherwise, I would say, as an outsider, or even as an insider, as an IC, or even someone in management, I'm going to say, you're not trying as hard because I know the demographics of the folks who are in New York. I know the demographics of those who are in Silicon Valley. And to say that we can't have that talent, I feel that that's just, well, BS, or just a way to say, you know, we don't, or dig gatekeep.
00:34:41
Speaker
We tried, we couldn't do it. Did you? How hard did you try? How hard did you try to support them? How many people of color, how many women did you interview? How about you report on that and let us know if that's what your prerogatives are. Yeah. I mean, in the ideal world, if we had diverse leadership, we wouldn't need quotas. But because we don't and because the system is set up to favor the majority group, that's why I'm arguing for it.
00:35:10
Speaker
But the way that I use quotas in my head, my organization, we don't have actual quotas saying, Jenny, your partners and your vendors all have to be XYZ. But in my head, do I factor in race when I'm choosing a vendor or supplier to work with us? Or where I can choose where the grant money goes towards? Absolutely. So if I have two organizations of the same
00:35:34
Speaker
capabilities, but one happens to show up with a diverse team, I'm going to go with that organization. So that's how I incorporate that kind of like mental quota in my head. And that's how I address like the identity conscious, you know, I guess, policy in terms of who I decide to work with and hire for my projects. So what I was trying to
00:36:00
Speaker
hold up myself to the principle is like we wanted to provide equal opportunities for everyone. What I'm against is like we immediately like making a equal outcome for everyone.
Diversity in Talent Review and Succession Planning
00:36:15
Speaker
I don't think that's our role or the HR or the organization role to do that. Yeah, I think you're right. Oh, I was gonna.
00:36:25
Speaker
Echo, like, yeah, I think it should be, this should be a tough topic that organizations, those in leadership and those in HR roles take seriously and consider. Absolutely. It's not, it's not our, well, it is our problem, but it's not our problem. Yeah, I mean, they're the ones making those decisions. And I mean, I would say ask yourself if your client base is diverse, if you're trying to reach, let's say like the US,
00:36:55
Speaker
the American population, you know, it's 40% racial minorities and within that it's, you know, X% Black, X% Asian, X% Latino. So if your strategy team does not reflect that, you've got yourself a problem and you're only catering to like, you know, a shrinking majority. Yeah. And I would, I would, you know, encourage folks in those roles to consider, you know, whether they want to use, you know,
00:37:27
Speaker
weak or strong preferential treatment on those different stages and to really have that tough conversation on why they're going to do which approach or whether they just want to do some sort of enhancement program for folks that are under historically underrepresented.
00:37:49
Speaker
So when it comes to leadership positions, you know, one idea that I had and I want to get your perspective on this is should Asians be part of the conversation when it comes to leadership development? So at the entry level, most Asians.
00:38:07
Speaker
don't have a problem getting entry into an organization. That's something that I think we can all agree on, most Asians, except for certain underrepresented groups. But how do you incorporate and include Asians? Because most diversity programs don't include Asians when it comes to like, hey, we need more Asian representation at the leadership level. So how might
00:38:29
Speaker
they incorporate us. Should, should they? And how should they do that? Because again, I think there might be pushback against that because people are like, yeah, why are you including Asians in this conversation? It should just be... I think absolutely. I think absolutely they should consider Asians. And in this case, it's not just Asians, but all the other minorities.
00:38:52
Speaker
that has been neglecting the leadership positions as well. And what I'm seeing this is this needs to be baked in the talent review process. This needs to be baked into the calibration process. And not seeing like, hey, we need to put like people's race as part of the decision making there, but rather you should have a diverse pool of
00:39:21
Speaker
candidates that you are thinking about for your successor pool. You should have a diverse slate for everyone that you've interviewed for that leadership role. And on top of all this, I felt like there are certain leadership development programs fail to really capture what really that minority group needed for. I cannot speak on behalf of like other minority groups, but for Asians,
00:39:50
Speaker
I wanted to have some active, ongoing conversations around how Asians are facing as a group in terms of the challenges they had at a career. And there are ways to like, debacle that instead of like, yeah, we shouldn't just forget this group. And that's it. And then you learn nothing from that process itself. Oh, that's such a tough question, Jenny.
00:40:21
Speaker
I'm with Echo and that I wish there was this group. And I say I wish because I feel like it isn't there or the knowledge isn't shared amongst the group.
00:40:42
Speaker
Or that, you know, like if we have some of these groups, it's, you know, if we have affinity groups, it's about other things other than leadership. But I think like, if they, if organizations or leaders with an organization can be a little bit more explicit about that, to showcase like, hey, we would like to see
00:40:59
Speaker
you know, more diverse groups move up within leadership. I would love to hear that. I would love to join that, to listen in to various different groups to see how it's worked for others. But I think, you know, there may be, I think, and Echo alluded to this, this perception of this zero-sum game of like, if you make it, I won't.
00:41:25
Speaker
And I wonder how we change that mindset to if you're not a leader in this organization, it also could mean that you could grow and become a leader elsewhere as well too.
Changing Zero-sum Mentality in Leadership Development
00:41:40
Speaker
I would say like one of the things I ran into when I ran at my DEI program
00:41:45
Speaker
at the startup is that people are wondering, hey, where's top leadership in this? And the underlying message I was trying to convey was, in a way, it doesn't matter. The folks who are here matter the most because you're here, because you want to be here. And you're not just going to be stuck here in this organization. Years from now, and I was thinking like 5, 10, 15, 20 years, I was already saying in my head, you may be the leaders that we're looking for now later on.
00:42:13
Speaker
And I want to convey that to them when we were talking about unconscious biases and things that we can do to mitigate microaggressions and instability. So I would want, I would love to have a group like that where we're talking about, it's not only just growing within the organization, but cultivating a group of folks so that we grow and bring each other along and to,
00:42:41
Speaker
you know, help each other identify the pitfalls and whatnot, the new strategies that we bring along to create this more diverse organization. And it doesn't have to be like folks, like folks don't stay two, three, four decades in an organization anymore. There's a good chance within three to five years, you may move to a different organization. And how I view this now is that when I meet people in an organization, if they're energized and, um,
00:43:11
Speaker
confident and want to do all these things, I think they're going to be a leader. If not here, then where? I want that to be the mentality. If you're not going to be a leader here, then where? And how can I help you? And how can you help me achieve the goals that we want to create a more diverse workforce? And I wish that was the central principle in which we can operate off of how do we grow each other to be leaders
00:43:40
Speaker
within many organizations, not just this one. Yeah, how do we get away from that zero-sum mentality? I think it comes back to that, which is getting people, and that includes us as well, Asians, who are just not supportive of these types of initiatives. If we knew the answer to that, I think we'd be looking at early retirement.
00:44:05
Speaker
But I think a good place is what we're doing right now is just talking about it, debating it. Because I think the more you debate it, the more you talk about it, the less taboo it becomes. I think in the last episode, I mentioned I had so much anxiety around this. But again, I think
00:44:24
Speaker
We know that talking about it and really like, you know, having this mentality, this mindset of like, this is a learning mindset and this isn't about performance, you know, because in a way we are products of the system, ourself, all this racism, sexism, and we have to in a way kind of pull ourselves out of that. And that's kind of hard. So I want to,
00:44:48
Speaker
just relate to our listeners that as you think about this and maybe have realizations of your own actions and behaviors, to also be kind to yourself on your own past behaviors. We're trying to move everybody and all our listeners and all the folks that we influence to be in a better spot. And so long as we can do that, I would feel good about that. And that creates, there's less anxiety when I think about it that way.
00:45:18
Speaker
Okay, so if we had to summarize our key takeaways from this episode, what would they be? So when it comes to talking about affirmative action in the workplace as it relates to Asians and Asian Americans,
00:45:39
Speaker
I do think there are probably two and feel free to add more to it. I think the first one is when it comes to like from action in the workplace, we shouldn't just like
00:45:52
Speaker
I think we all agree that we should adopt more of a race-conscious policy in those employment decision-making there. And race shouldn't be just the single factor that we're considering for the employment decisions, but rather there are a lot of nuance and complexity around it. And the second, to me, I think it's important
00:46:18
Speaker
finding various ways to support the minority groups in need based on their needs, so we'll be able to create more of the equal opportunities for everyone. So those are my two key takeaways for the organization itself. And then the third one probably is don't be too hard on ourselves, knowing this is still a topic that we're all trying to unpack. I'm going to use a metaphor if that's OK.
00:46:47
Speaker
You know, when we're at a canoe together and we row in this canoe, we get each other to the other side. So I hope that, you know, when folks are listening to this and hear what we say and what we, our thoughts and the studies that we present that help to realize that this isn't necessarily just a zero sum game. There's gonna be aspects in life where you get a promotion
00:47:17
Speaker
It would be really nice if you have that support. And if someone else gets that promotion, I hope you could be there to support them and move them forward. And there's a good chance. You never know. And I would say, I feel this way about the program that we're in at TC. You never know who's going to be a leader within the organization. As you cultivate and grow them, there's a chance they may pull you up as well, too. So there's that aspect. And not to say that there's always going to be this reciprocity, but
00:47:46
Speaker
you know, just in being this good person, this good leader, you I think put that really that good karma out there. And I hope our listeners get a chance to do that. And I hope we get to bring each other along through this, through this thing we call life.
Episode Conclusion with Haiku
00:48:07
Speaker
Great. So it's not a zero sum mentality and you bring others as you raise up. So I think that's a good way to finish or end our episode. Do we have a haiku? Yes, sure we do.
00:48:24
Speaker
And actually, this is interesting to see the perspective from Chad GPT, knowing it's just a language model itself, but you can kind of tell where it stands in terms of affirmative action stuff. So what we have as a prompt for Chad GPT is the implication for affirmative action for Asians. And what it has wrote is, affirmative mukang, consequences yet unknown,
00:48:55
Speaker
Inequality loom. Ooh, that is deep. Yeah. Yeah, that is deep. Yeah. Well, thanks to GPT and well, hopefully you listeners, or I hope this topic was interesting for you. I think this is an ongoing debate, ongoing topic that we will probably reflect on over the next, you know, months, years, hopefully we can join in on our conversation.
00:49:25
Speaker
I would just say thank you everyone. Thank you everyone. That's it? Okay.