Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
With Belle Tindall
548 Plays8 months ago
Where does our desire for the supernatural fit in the modern world? With a society built on rationality and technology, do we still have longings for a connection with something transcendent? Steve Osmond sits down with Belle Tindall to identify areas in our friends' lives where we can show how the gospel story meets those longings.
Dr Belle Tindall is a biblical scholar, writer, speaker, and podcaster. Based at the Centre for Cultural Witness, she is the writer in residence at Seen and Unseen. She is also a columnist for Premier’s Woman Alive magazine and co-host of Re-Enchanting, a podcast that ponders whether our disenchanted world can be re-enchanted with the wonder and mystery of the Christian story.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of Host and Guest
00:00:10
Speaker
Well, welcome back to the PEP Talk Podcast, the Persuasive Evangelism Podcast. I'm Steve Osmond, again standing in for Kristi Mayer and Andy Bannister. And yeah, thank you for joining us. I'm really, really excited about today's podcast. We have a guest with us, Belle Tindall. And yeah, Belle, thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing today? Oh, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. It's a joy. How are you doing?
00:00:37
Speaker
I am very well, thank you. Good. So Belle, for those listening, Belle does a lot of podcasting, so she is now on the other side of the microphone. Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? I mean, it's a disconcerting thing. Yeah, I'm probably a bit too much of a control freak to prefer this side of things.
00:00:57
Speaker
Ah, fair enough. Okay, well, we'll let this go then. For those who aren't familiar with you and your work, let me read a little bio that I have, and then we'll just leap into some questions for you.
Belle Tindall's Background in Biblical Studies
00:01:12
Speaker
So Bell is a biblical scholar, writer, speaker, and
00:01:15
Speaker
podcaster. She's based at the Centre for Cultural Witness, and she is the writer-in-residence at Scene and Unseen. She is also a columnist for Premier's Woman Live magazine and co-host of Re-enchanting, a podcast that ponders whether our disenchanted world can be re-enchanted with the wonder and mystery of the Christian story. So you are fairly busy, I think. I just don't know how to say no.
00:01:46
Speaker
I'm starting to wonder, I can see there's a lot in there. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat to us today. I'd love to just sort of press in on a few of those things and have you, you know, tell myself and the listeners a little bit about the work that you do. And then we'll speak a bit about evangelism, and especially with the podcast and you're involved in kind of, you know, what you're seeing and pick and run things.
00:02:12
Speaker
But before that, could you maybe give me two minutes on a bit of your background, your faith journey, so you know yourself becoming a Christian and then getting to where you are today, what led you into this career path, if you will? Yeah, that's a good question. So to start with, my faith, I have one of those testimonies that kind of starts before I do in that I was born into a Christian family, which is
00:02:42
Speaker
a real joy. And so in a way, like my parents, they have a much cooler testimony than I do. So I kind of just cling onto this and I'm like, well, I'll just, you know, I'll take yours as like the prequel to mine then. But yeah, so I've always, always been in a Christian family. Jesus has always been a part of my life and faith. Well, he's been the whole of my life and faith as well. So I kind of, I think, you know, you have these testimonies that are like,
00:03:07
Speaker
someone jumping in to the ocean and then you have ones where it's someone slowly wading in from the shore. And I definitely sit in like that latter category. It's just been a lifetime really of kind of just wading deeper and deeper into who God is and why that matters.
00:03:27
Speaker
So that's my testimony, really. It's kind of not a dramatic one. I kind of wish it was, but there's beauty in there. There's beauty in this kind as well. And how did I get into
Cultural Witness and Engaging Non-Christians
00:03:39
Speaker
this area of work? That is a great question, slowly and unexpectedly, perhaps. I think from a really young age, I loved the Bible, like loved it.
00:03:51
Speaker
Um, I loved, I think it's because I just loved, but like, I just love reading. So I think my love for the Bible probably truly started just as a love of it as some great stories. Um, and that really is where everything came from, I think. So I was in a church that very graciously let me like do youth services and you know, so like the more I was trusted,
00:04:14
Speaker
with it, the more seriously I took it and the more I found myself wanting to go deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper. And so that led me very much on an academic route.
00:04:25
Speaker
I went all the way to a doctorate. I was just a perpetual student for many years. And then all of a sudden that came to an end and a huge unexpected twist, which is where I always thought my academia and my love of the Bible, I always thought that would only ever be for a Christian context because actually naturally I've spent my entire life not being natural evangelism.
00:04:51
Speaker
which is hilarious now that I'm on this podcast. So I always thought, this will be for Christians, this will be for the church. And just a huge plot twist is I started working for a center called the Center for Cultural Witness. And its whole vision is about how do we creatively, confidently, clearly explain the beauty and the relevance and the depth of the Christian faith to people who aren't Christians, but who are curious.
00:05:19
Speaker
And so that's been really recent. So that's been my last two, no, not two years, a year and a half, 18 months or so that I've had to like really like retrain myself and learn a lot and then learn a lot of new things. And yeah, so some of the stuff you mentioned in the bio has just been a part of that, I think.
00:05:38
Speaker
Okay, very good. Well, that is, I mean, super, super interesting, quite the journey.
In-depth Biblical Studies and Feminist Theology
00:05:44
Speaker
You mentioned the PhD studies. I was going to ask you about that actually. What do you focus on in those?
00:05:51
Speaker
Yeah, so I did it in biblical studies. Here's the thing is it gets narrower and narrower and narrower. So biblical studies and then I went for New Testament and then I went for John, the Gospel of John in particular. And then I went for one chapter in the Gospel of John, John 4, Jesus' conversation with a Samaritan woman. And so I wrote a hundred thousand words on that one chapter, which people are like, that's
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, but the funny thing is that it wasn't enough. Like I was like, I need a hundred thousand more. Like the beauty of Jesus and the genius of John, how can I sum that up? Um, so I kind of, I went a few different ways with that chapter. I really went deep and just tried to kind of excavate some of the goodness.
00:06:34
Speaker
and that includes, you know, feminist theology because of course the Samaritan woman is such a rich character and she's such an anomaly that you could also go down Jewish Christian relations and the way the Old Testament is present in the Gospel of John. I even did like a chapter on memory and things so I went in some really random directions but it was so fun.
00:06:55
Speaker
I can imagine that. Just from hearing that, it actually does spark maybe more of an apologetic question. Sure. If you aren't talking to people, and I'm sure that if anyone spends any amount of time on social media or just listening to what's going on out there, there is this idea that Christianity is oppressive to women. So we don't have a huge amount of time, but if someone said that to you,
00:07:24
Speaker
two minutes, how would you kind of persuasively maybe push back on that and invite them into a conversation? What would you say to that question?
Addressing Christianity's Perception on Women
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah. So I think the problem is that there's kind of different answers as to why it's not. And I can only represent my field of thought, but I think the first thing to do is acknowledge that, yeah, the church has got it wrong.
00:07:47
Speaker
You know, like not completely dismiss it, be like the church was messed up, you know, we're broken and we're messy. I'll acknowledge the truth in that. But I would also say that Jesus, it all comes down to Jesus for me. I think feminist theology and the reason why Christianity is good news for women is Jesus. I see it again and again and again, time after time after time.
00:08:10
Speaker
He intentionally goes out of his way to equip, empower, champion, liberate women in a way that was so radical and is still so radical. We're still coming to terms with it. And he did that again and again and women are so...
00:08:25
Speaker
present, even in the resurrection. I'm writing a piece today about Mary Magdalene witnessing the resurrection, and that was so counter-cultural when women's testimonies went valued in Roman or Jewish court. And then that was weaved into the early church. And there's a reason why at the beginning Christianity was called the religion for slaves, women, and children.
00:08:49
Speaker
because it was those people that it was specifically speaking to, and I don't think that's ever stopped. Now, we as the church might kind of be a bit of a barrier to this, but I personally, and this is where some people would be like, well, I personally think feminism wouldn't exist if Jesus had never existed.
00:09:07
Speaker
My feminism falls down when Jesus is taken out as the foundation because it's built on what he taught me. And I personally believe it's built on what he's taught us as a culture. And that's where people would be like, stop it. But I honestly dig into it. And that would be my provocative like two minute
00:09:29
Speaker
evangelistic punch. Fantastic.
The 'Re-enchanting' Podcast and Spirituality Exploration
00:09:32
Speaker
You will start so many fantastic conversations with that just like opens many doors. So bank that as a way to identify here that objection. So that's great.
00:09:45
Speaker
So I think that falls into sort of the larger idea of, you know, culture and where things are. And so, you know, from what I see, most of your work is focused in on that. So, reenchanting the process it's involved in. Maybe can you tell us a little bit about that? What does it focus on? What's the point of it?
00:10:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's been such a surprise into my life, Reenchanting. I love talking about it. So it's a podcast that I co-host. So it's produced by Seen and Unseen, which is a magazine site that maybe we'll talk about in a minute. But Reenchanting, I co-host it with Justin Briley, the apologetics legend that is Justin Briley. And so every episode we have a guest on,
00:10:34
Speaker
And so it's an interview style format. And then what we do is all of, some of these, most of them are Christians, some of them aren't, but they just, there's something about Christianity that is either influenced their work or their worldview or something like that. And we just speak to them about it. We speak to them about what they think of Christianity. I think recently I saw you had Louise, Louise Pirion, was that right? Yeah. So she's a perfect example of someone who isn't so sure on the Christian
00:11:04
Speaker
on the Christian faith for herself, but what she can't deny is the impact it's had on culture. So she's a really great example of this kind of, that tension that we sometimes have. But it's called reenchanting because, so it pulls from this like, so Max Weber, you know, the sociologist, he sort of predicted this world of disenchantment.
00:11:25
Speaker
Or he's German, so actually a more literal translation was he predicted an age of demagification, where we just lose our trust in and our appreciation of anything mystical, anything sacred, anything spiritual, anything transcendent, and we push all of that aside in favour of all things rational and logical and reasonable and measurable.
00:11:50
Speaker
And so he predicted this and so what the podcast kind of asks is, was he right? Are we in that age? And if so, how can we re-enchant ourselves? And yeah, that's the podcast. It's yeah, it's a joy. Yeah.
00:12:08
Speaker
Oh, that is that is fantastic. I have caught I've just caught the one episode of it so far, but it looks really, really cool. And I think just from what I'm seeing in terms of the culture around that is really hitting the nail on the head. It does seem like there's this like sort of broad distrust toward, you know, all the previous sort of structures that seem to not made good on what they promised in terms of meaning and fulfillment and life and all of that.
00:12:34
Speaker
And so I think it's such a good time to have that podcast. So what would you think then, maybe two questions. For the people you come across, sort of just in wider culture, I guess, what are some of the disenchantments that they are struggling with?
Society's Spiritual Disenchantment
00:12:55
Speaker
What are the big questions they're asking?
00:12:57
Speaker
And then how do we as Christians go about sharing our faith in a way to show that better story, to show the wonder of the gospel, show that the Christian story makes sense of things? One of those two questions, if you will. Yeah, so I think...
00:13:14
Speaker
I think that what's been so interesting, particularly in the conversation around reenchanting, so enchantment, disenchantment, reenchantment, is we've had some guests on and I'm kind of being more and more persuaded by this argument. We've had some guests on and say, I don't think we're disenchanted at all. We're just enchanted with different things.
00:13:35
Speaker
And I'm kind of getting more and more persuaded by that. So we had the author Francis Spufford come on. Yeah, it was one of my very favorite episodes. It was one of the first ones we ever did. It's all the way back in season one. And he came on and he said, we are meaning making creatures. We can't stop making enchantments.
00:13:54
Speaker
I think what might have happened, perhaps, is for some reason, Christianity, but it's probably wider than that, it's probably organized religion in general, has stopped being seen as a source, that in chance. And there are lots of people who have lots of theories on that about why, you know, maybe we washed it down because we thought, well, if people want rational, let's go rational. And we kind of scrubbed out the bits that were,
00:14:21
Speaker
too hard to explain or too weird. Like a lot of the episodes I've been challenged by the fact that if you scrub out the weirdest parts of Christianity, you're left with quite a pallid thing. And if there's one thing that like the Jesus movement is not, it's that. So maybe it's that or, you know, I'm not sure, maybe it's the fact that now, you know, with this such a rise in like spirituality and crystals and all of this, so maybe it's that, oh yeah, we're not,
00:14:47
Speaker
disenchanted in the way that we don't want the magic or the mystery, but we don't want all the strings attached to it that come with a God or that come with a church or that come with religion. Like we want it on our own terms and we don't want it to cost us anything. So I think, you know, you can put like individualism in there if you know what I mean.
Engaging with New Spiritual Seekers
00:15:07
Speaker
So I'm kind of being more and more persuaded by those things and also is
00:15:13
Speaker
I think people have become disenchanted with the church, maybe. And I think in this age of sort of
00:15:24
Speaker
I think in this age, we're, and I want to try to really carefully, like we're saying this, but we want everyone to be quite morally perfect or we don't want anything from them at all. Well, what church leader, what church is going to stand up to that? And you know, we, we idolize people and then they don't live up to it. And then that affects how
00:15:45
Speaker
how enchanted we can be with the message that they were proclaiming. So I think there's a lot of that as well. So that's sort of kind of some of the things that I'm seeing and in which case, Christians then, like what do we do about that? And I think
00:16:03
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Well, if that is where things are and it seems like, well, you know, maybe it does have a bit of a bleak look to it. Well, you know, what do we do? How do we ourselves get that re-enchantment back of what we feel we've lost? And how do we take that up to the world? Yeah. So I think, again, this won't be the same for everyone, but for me, I've been really challenged by the world
00:16:28
Speaker
wants the enchantment. And I'm one of the people where I have scrubbed away what I think might be the hardest pills to swallow when it comes to Christianity in regards to the weirdest parts. When you know, when I say I believe in God,
00:16:44
Speaker
the details are not more far fetched than that but for some reason i'm like but don't ask me about the virgin beef because i'll get embarrassed and don't ask me about this do you know what i mean like the oddest parts of it i do yeah i've been really tempted particularly when i was like a teenager and i just wanted to seem as normal as possible to just strip all
00:17:00
Speaker
all the bits that people might make fun of me for out of it. And what's been left? Nothing. Like, because not only is that the truth, you know, I believe it to be the true way of seeing the world, but also I personally believe that we are all born with a craving inside ourselves for mystery and for things that go bigger than, for things that are bigger than us and for things that we can't explain. I think we were born wanting and needing that.
00:17:29
Speaker
And therefore what I'm telling people with my vision of stripped down Christianity is that it won't fill those deepest parts of them that like the whole deep to deep thing. I'm not offering that to them. And so I think that's been a big challenge for me. But also I think
00:17:49
Speaker
I see, personally, and this is such a personal thing, and I also know that there is danger attached to it, but I see the rise of people's spiritual curiosity. I see that as a really exciting thing, because I can meet them in that. It is, absolutely. Yeah, it's such a... Sorry, go on.
00:18:08
Speaker
So if you are seeing that sort of openness, or that sort of rise in this idea of, hey, we need spiritually, maybe in a sort of vague faceless sense, how do you engage with that person? Yeah. So I think what I would say is, so for example, there's an MA that is about to be launched, a master's degree in Exeter, called a Master's in Magic Studies.
00:18:31
Speaker
And like all of this media uproar about how odd that is. Can you believe that people are going to be going to university and doing modules on spells? And I kind of said to them, well, I did my masters in biblical studies. Like, do you know what's in the Bible? There's talking donkeys. There's like, you want weird. I've got weird to offer you.
00:18:50
Speaker
We've got weird. So I think what I've learned to do is kind of be like, oh, I totally get that you've got a craving for that. I do, too. This is where I find it. You know, like so, for example, I am a bit.
00:19:04
Speaker
I just, I'm not convinced that the right way to go is just demonizing people all the time. So people who, yeah, so people who read tarot cards, for example, I'm like, totally, I get that you have that craving because I believe we were made to live a prophetic life where we do tune into a voice that's not our own. I believe that's God and I believe, you know, and you can go into like prophecy or whatever.
00:19:26
Speaker
Or, you know, yeah, it's totally understandable that you want to go and seek healing from this person in this way. I also believe in supernatural healing. But for me, that comes through the power of the Holy Spirit because of Jesus. And so I think that would be my angle always is to say, you're craving, I personally believe is really valid. Where you're finding it and where I find it is very different. Can I introduce you to where I find these things?
00:19:56
Speaker
and just come and see. Fantastic. Yeah, I think that is so helpful.
Podcast Reflections and Online Connection
00:20:00
Speaker
And we can do it in so many different ways. I think the way you've explored it here is so good with, I mean, just that example of that MA, I read up something about it recently. Yeah.
00:20:11
Speaker
I had questions. Sure, yeah. Seeing it as a way, like a touchstone or a point of contact to actually then bring, hey, there's something that you're latching onto, which is good and legitimate. But let me show you where it sort of finds its truthfulness. Yeah. I see we have already sort of come to the end of our time, which it sucks because I'm having so much fun chatting to you.
00:20:37
Speaker
But for those listening who want to follow the work that you're doing and the podcasts and your writing and all of that, where can they find you and follow you in the non-creepy sense? In the non-creepy sense, yeah. Well, you could kind of go to the separate sources. So I always want to point people towards seen and unseen because I'm just one contributor of hundreds and it's a beautiful resource.
00:21:01
Speaker
Um, reenchanting is wherever you find your regular podcasts. And me, I'm just on social media. I should sort out a website or something. Maybe if I was a different type of organized person, I would, but you can just come find me on social media, bell tingle, and come say hi.
00:21:17
Speaker
It is fantastic. Well, Belle, thank you so much for taking the time to chat to us today. It has been just, yeah, so much fun chatting to you. And yeah, I hope everything goes really well with all the work that you're doing. And yeah, the Lord uses it to, you know, for His glory and that you just have so much fun in what you're doing. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been so, so fun. Thank you. My pleasure. And we will hopefully chat to you again soon. Ciao for now.