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Episode 68 - Trouble GETTING STARTED on something? This episode is for YOU!
1.3k Plays4 days ago
We've all been there: Bought the tool, watched the videos, bookmarked the plans. Organized the shop one more time. And somehow the actual PROJECT never happens.
This episode is about the INTENTION-BEHAVIOR GAP — the well-documented, deeply human tendency to plan, prep, and research without ACTUALLY DOING THE THING. Is preparation even really about the work? Or is it about avoiding the risk and uncomfortable feelings of finding out the work won't be perfect or we're not good at something in the beginning? We dig into why "getting ready" feels so productive when it's often just a really elaborate form of procrastination.
Our RESIDENT Ph.D Psychologist Sherry Pagoto breaks down why intentions so rarely convert into action, and how we can SOLVE THIS PROBLEM with simple realistic steps.
Strap in, because it's time to stop TALKING and start DOING
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the unfiltered AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
Gorilla Glue Wood Filler and Wood Glue (less water)mentioned in today's show: http://gorillatough.com/woodworkingisbs
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I think this is an episode that everyone is going to relate to because all of us have had those thoughts. i wish or I want to work out more. I want to be more physically active.
00:00:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I want to be a better woodworker. I want to make certain things. I'd like to take up photography. I'd like to be a better cook. and This episode is about how the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
00:00:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, we're going to hurt some feelings tonight, kids. This is Woodworking is Bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig Woodworking, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I got my boy in the chair, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator.
00:01:00
Oh behave!
Como estas, mother bitches?
00:01:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And with us, one of our favorite return guests, we have our resident, I like to say this now, our resident PhD psychologist. I live here now.
00:01:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sherry Pagato. Thank you.
00:01:17
Oh behave!
Thanks for coming back on the show, Sherry.
00:01:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Great to be back, of course.
00:01:20
Oh behave!
How do you feel as a psychologist about Paul condemning our listenership to hell? Just right off the jump.
00:01:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I don't know that would have been my choice, but I feel like they they probably rallied behind him mysteriously.
00:01:26
Oh behave!
but ah
00:01:32
Oh behave!
ah
00:01:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, way to go, Paul. And that called open. That was great. So ah so first of all, I do want to say i I've been thinking a lot about, you know, Sherry's been a return guest several times. And I just think it's a wonderful thing to have a psychologist with this particular crowd because us as craftspeople and and I think, you know, our listenership is at least...
00:01:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
probably 70% male, men are not so always in touch with like getting to the root causes of things and feelings and psychology of things. And I think Sherry does such a great job of like demystifying things that may be bubbling under the surface for all of us, but we don't quite know how to put our finger on it. And she does it in a nice way. And honestly, we don't have access to someone like her. Her expertise is rarefied air. So I just love having Sherry here to kind of take Eric, the thoughts you and I have kind of like bouncing around our head about a topic and she'll extrapolate it and make sense. Oh, this is actually well studied. And it's called this. And tonight's episode is exactly that.
00:02:45
Oh behave!
that's This is just as... I don't know how to articulate this to you any more clearly than just saying this is what it's like to be an idiot with smart friends. This is why we're friends, Paul.
00:02:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i
00:02:56
Oh behave!
Like, this is... ah
00:02:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I guess we're both lucky to have Sherry as our smart friend then. All right. So tonight's episode um came up through an observation and I've kind of been speaking about this over time.
00:03:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. And I said to Sherry the other day, i was like, I've been thinking about this thing I observe in woodworking where, um, people buy tools or, and they say, I want to be a woodworker. And they buy all these tools and the tools just sit there doing nothing.
00:03:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then there's people who take a further step and they set up a shop. Like they buy these tools and they set up a shop, but then the shop just kind of sits there. They don't make much.
00:03:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or they start making stuff, but it's kind of limited to just shop furniture. oh I'm going to make a i'm gonna make ah drawers over here, and I'm going make a cubby system and a sandpaper organized over there, and I'm to house all my bits over there. And they spend inordinate amounts of money setting up the shop and preparing to do the thing. Now, the reason I talked about this so many times is because I was trying to urge those people to like push through, break through, get to the thing that would really give you joy, like real happiness. get Like, you know, get out of preparer mode. I call these this kind of person, the preparer.
00:04:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I was talking to Sherry and I'm like, you know, there's this thing and in woodworking. that And I just explained that whole thing to Sherry. And Sherry said to me. Well, there actually is a concept in psychology called the intention behavior gap.
00:04:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And what this refers to is the disconnect between when we intend to do something and actually doing it. And before we understood human behavior and before behavioral science really evolved, it was sort of assumed if you intended to do something, you talked about it and you didn't do it, that it was a moral failing on your part.
00:05:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Something is wrong with you. Yeah, you're full shit. You're a BSer. It's a moral failing. But then we learned that
00:05:07
Oh behave!
Wait, we don't think that anymore?
00:05:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I think some of us do. I think when we don't understand behavior, we insult people. Honestly. I don't know why you're doing that.
00:05:19
Oh behave!
Profound insight five minutes into the F.
00:05:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you must be... Did you see the way she looked at...
00:05:23
Oh behave!
Wow.
00:05:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She just looked me square in the eyes when she said that.
00:05:25
Oh behave!
Oh, she knew. She knew.
00:05:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That was unintentional.
00:05:30
Oh behave!
ah
00:05:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but it's But accurate, I suppose. But no, we really do. We really do. like If you see somebody who's not achieving a goal or not something you think they should be doing, we say they're lazy.
00:05:43
Oh behave!
Yeah.
00:05:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
or you know so Or you see someone on the road and they're not they did something you... think was wrong and you're like, they're stupid. So when we don't understand people's behavior, we do tend towards maybe and ad hominem attack. so But with an intention behavior gap, I think it's actually something we've all experienced. And to prove my point, I want you both to think of, and I'm happy to share too, and I'll even start off.
00:06:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh something that you've been intending to do that you have not done yet.
00:06:11
Oh behave!
Oh, that's easy.
00:06:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so I'll go first. I have really wanted to speak another language. And of course, I took French in high school and that sort of thing. And but I'm not fluent, but I wanted to become fluent another language.
00:06:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I've made no headway on this as an adult whatsoever. But it's something that I really want. And I intend to do at some point. I noticed your voice got quiet there at the end.
00:06:39
Oh behave!
yeah that was that was classic trail off
00:06:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because I do think there is, there's like a little shame too. But yeah, so ah Eric, you said you had one right away.
00:06:49
Oh behave!
Oh my God.
00:06:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What is it?
00:06:50
Oh behave!
I've got so many of them. Let me count the ways. The, the one that immediately came to mind is I think. So when I bought the house ah five, six years ago, I immediately was like, okay, if well I'll renovate the kitchen.
00:07:05
Oh behave!
I'll renovate the bathroom. I'll do X, y and Z. That hasn't happened. I've updated the house a little bit here and there, but I haven't gotten to those two big projects yet, but more specifically,
00:07:17
Oh behave!
I think it was like two years ago now. I bought the countertops and I just haven't replaced them because I'm like, you know, I just don't I don't fucking care.
00:07:28
Oh behave!
yeah
00:07:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah That's a great example, though. you...
00:07:35
Oh behave!
Yeah, I have it.
00:07:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you
00:07:36
Oh behave!
They're in the shop. They're staring at me like I see them all the time. And I'm like, I could I could just rip out if it wasn't. So my countertops are tile. Right. And in the backsplash is tile.
00:07:46
Oh behave!
And truth be told, what I really don't want to have to do is tear out the backsplash and re drywall the kitchen. So sans that, I could just rip the countertops off and replace them with the butcher block and it would be like a two day project. Read drywalling and read backsplashing and doing all of that increases it to probably like a week, you know, and I just haven't bit the bullet and done the thing yet.
00:08:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so we see the reasons. Pussy. ah When we don't understand behavior, we tend to hurl insults.
00:08:17
Oh behave!
Yeah, uh huh. Uh huh.
00:08:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So let's turn to Paul now.
00:08:22
Oh behave!
Oh, mister, I can renovate my kitchen anytime as long as Eric comes and help me doze the beadboard, you know?
00:08:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh that's fair.
00:08:27
Oh behave!
Yeah.
00:08:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's fair. He helps me instead of doing his own. What? Okay. ah mine Mine's so fucking easy, man. I've been thinking about losing weight for a better part of 20 years.
00:08:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm still wearing a fat suit every day.
00:08:40
Oh behave!
ah
00:08:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like like it's my job. So I did make some headway in the last three years because I started playing beach volleyball every every week, a couple times a week.
00:08:52
Oh behave!
Hell yeah.
00:08:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so I'm like kind of fit underneath the fat suit. But I'm still wearing the fat suit on top of a more fit core now. Like I don't have any of the physical problems I used to have from being weak. I used to be weak and fat. And now I'm just now I'm just fat. I'm not as weak as I used to be. So I've made some progress. But the truth be told, I have designs every month of eating better. All I have to do is put less food in my mouth and I'll lose weight and I can't seem to do it.
00:09:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
for For years, I must have tried a hundred different times in my own head. I'm going to make a change to my eating and I'll do it for a week and I'll slide back into my old habits.
00:09:36
Oh behave!
Paul, can can I ask a question? I'm i'm curious about just like um a point in life where it's like, why why should I bother losing weight? Why should I bother X, Y, and Z?
00:09:47
Oh behave!
Like, is it aesthetic? Is it healthy? Yada, yada, yada.
00:09:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:09:50
Oh behave!
Was there a point, let's say, ah like you've been married to Vicky or in a relationship with Vicky for what, like 15-ish years?
00:09:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:10:00
Oh behave!
Okay, so so way, way back in the before times, after any given relationship that had ended, did you ever have that that streak where you were like, I gotta get hot?
00:10:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because oh when I was single?
00:10:13
Oh behave!
Yeah, like post post any relationship as a younger person where you're like, I'm gonna get fucking ripped. I'm gonna slay the ladies.
00:10:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
then No, I never had that thought.
00:10:22
Oh behave!
No.
00:10:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know.
00:10:22
Oh behave!
So then what is like...
00:10:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I never did. i don't know why.
00:10:25
Oh behave!
so so then so then what what is like
00:10:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What's driving it?
00:10:29
Oh behave!
Does it then translate to like, well, sure, I'm going to do it when I'm 50 now while I'm happily married and my child has grown and.
00:10:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no. Yeah. Well, while I, yeah. and my And my wife loves me even though I'm fat.
00:10:39
Oh behave!
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:10:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So why do I want it now? It's because I feel heavy when I walk upstairs. It's slower than I'd like to be.
00:10:44
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:10:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And when I play volleyball, I can't jump as high as I want. I'm not as fast as I want to get to the ball. I don't want to feel like I'm lifting the Titanic out of dry dock every time I like get out of bed.
00:10:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like, it's fucking horrible. All right. So the consequences of inaction are starting to take the balance. And I, like I said, I'm halfway.
00:11:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm actually physically fit now. I'm it's great. My back doesn't great volleyball player. And, but it's just like, I'm still wearing a fat suit on it.
00:11:12
Oh behave!
Yeah, I believe it.
00:11:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it's like, Paul, don't put like, it's not, it just seems so easy and I can't do it. And I, I just,
00:11:21
Oh behave!
But that that steak is really fucking delicious, man, you know? Like, there's that, you know?
00:11:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So is that whiskey boy?
00:11:27
Oh behave!
I goddamn right.
00:11:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you know what I'm saying?
00:11:28
Oh behave!
I mean, who wants to eat just fucking dry arugula all day long?
00:11:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Paul, do you find yourself insulting yourself? I do. Okay. Because I think that's the other thing is that we don't just judge each other.
00:11:38
Oh behave!
Interesting.
00:11:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But most of all, I think we judge ourselves when we don't i do close that gap. i can catch into behavior I can't seem to close that gap.
00:11:44
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:11:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I think, Eric, there's so many examples. I was kind of thinking of examples of like, the the intention behavior gap that Sherry's talking about. So writers, like if you're a writer, I think we've heard about writers building elaborate outlines and and I have these documents and I have notebooks set up, but never write the actual piece.
00:12:01
Oh behave!
huh
00:12:05
Oh behave!
Yeah.
00:12:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know I've seen photographers who buy the expensive camera, buy all the fancy lenses and it sits in a bag, right?
00:12:12
Oh behave!
Sure.
00:12:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And they never master all the manual settings on their camera. ah Musicians, they acquire gear acquisition syndrome, where they buy all these guitars and amps and preamps and distortion and effect pedals, and they actually don't play that much.
00:12:27
Oh behave!
Well, so...
00:12:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I think this phenomenon, what I'm getting to, and same with entrepreneurs, they spend all this time in the perfect business logo and the plan, and they file the LLC paperwork, but they never launch or sell anything, never launch the company or sell.
00:12:38
Oh behave!
Yeah.
00:12:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So this isn't limited to wordworking, but what was so cool was is I was thinking about this in woodworking preparers, right? Who never actually make the thing, they just build the shop.
00:12:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that's not to call those people out, because I'm happy to call myself, like all of us are calling ourselves out, because I wanna, I was thinking in terms of woodworking to help them break through, just like I could use someone to help me break through losing my fat suit.
00:13:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But then Sherry came along and kind opened my eyes, like, Paul, this is a generalizable human phenomenon. And it's called the, you know, the intention behavior gap.
00:13:19
Oh behave!
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:13:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And she kind of like, had a moment like, oh, fuck. Like, this is much bigger than I ever realized.
00:13:27
Oh behave!
Well, can we can we get hyper-specific in the woodworking space for just a moment?
00:13:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure.
00:13:32
Oh behave!
Because it's what we know best. And Sherry, I'm curious to to hear you elaborate on this outside of it. But I think a lot about the preparers in the woodworking space because I i know a lot of those people.
00:13:45
Oh behave!
um I teach a lot of those people. a lot of those people set up their class or their their shops and then they come to a class to build a thing. And I think what I have noticed is is a lot of those, ah the the drive to set up. stuff Sometimes it's just like the analysis paralysis, right? That's a very real thing.
00:14:06
Oh behave!
But sometimes, oftentimes, I think, It is somebody who has a partner, a spouse who like doesn't want them, doesn't want the shit they make in the house, right?
00:14:18
Oh behave!
They're like, you're not good enough.
00:14:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Really?
00:14:19
Oh behave!
Your work is not interesting.
00:14:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:14:21
Oh behave!
It's really like hyper, like dude, so many people I've taught so many people over the years who they make a beautiful object in the class.
00:14:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah really
00:14:29
Oh behave!
I'm like, what are you going to do with it? Where's it going to live? They're like, going give it to my daughter. my My wife would never let this be in the house. My husband would never let this be in the house. And so I think those people who set up the shop and build shop furniture, who build jigs, who like, like that's their space that their partner can't come in and dictate what they can and cannot build.
00:14:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They're safe space. safe space.
00:14:49
Oh behave!
Right.
00:14:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's a safe space
00:14:50
Oh behave!
So, so to them, that is the end goal. It's not, it's not the fear of building things. It's the, if I build it in here, it gets to live. If I build it for somewhere outside of this, it's just going end up in a fucking burn bin.
00:15:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Can I add to that, Eric? If I build this in this space, it's's it's safe in the shop.
00:15:04
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:15:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A so piece of shop furniture is never, it it can't really be a failure unless it totally you know falls apart and doesn't work.
00:15:08
Oh behave!
Yeah, it's mine.
00:15:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But it's not a failure if it's ugly because shop furniture can be ugly.
00:15:17
Oh behave!
Yeah.
00:15:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It avoids judgment. It avoids that fear of being critiqued, right? Because the gaps in your drawers in your shop, no one notices. The gaps in your dining room table dovetails. Everyone sees for perpetuity. And you're like, shit, right? So per I feel like there's an element of putting your neck on the line and perfectionism, right? And like putting yourself at risk when you move outside the shop.
00:15:47
Oh behave!
For sure. I think that's a very real component of it. I guess what I'm saying is, like, if your spouse wants a postmodern plastic pieces, it like, you know, pieces that look like nothing a woodworker would ever make, and then you're trying to build a traditional hall table, and they're like, of course I don't want that in my fucking house, then you're not going to build a hall table.
00:16:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Eric, I...
00:16:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, I totally...
00:16:10
Oh behave!
no
00:16:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, I totally get your point. And I think what you and I are saying, we're saying different things because it's multifactorial. Like some people's spouse doesn't want it.
00:16:16
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:16:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Some people are afraid, either they're perfectionistic or afraid of the judgment, even if they...
00:16:21
Oh behave!
Yeah, there's there's a lot of people who are afraid to get it wrong.
00:16:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right, like and so like I think if you could take all the people who stay building shop furniture, they would it would it would form different cohorts, right?
00:16:32
Oh behave!
That's fair.
00:16:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like you're talking about maybe 30%, and I'm talking about maybe 20%, and then there's you know we could fractionate all the reasons why.
00:16:33
Oh behave!
That's fair.
00:16:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But that brings us to another observation Sherry made. like I told her through these stages, i was like, well, there's woodworkers who just think to themselves, yeah, I'd like to be a woodworker someday.
00:16:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then there's woodworkers who buy the tools. They buy a couple saws or whatever, and it just sits in boxes. And then there's woodworkers who take it out of the box and set up a shop and then like make some shop furniture and kind of get stalled out there forever and stagnate. And then there's woodworkers who go the full Monty, right? They like actually make the thing. they yeah And so as I was explaining to her these stages, Sherry is like, oh, well, that maps perfectly on the five stages of change.
00:17:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I was like, what? So there is a theoretical model of behavior change that's called the five stages of change. And they actually do map perfectly perfectly in what you said. So here's what they are. So the first stage is pre-contemplation. And pre-contemplation is when we haven't quite decided on something. So the intention isn't even really there yet. It's just sort of like knocking around in your head. It's crossed your mind. You haven't committed to it. So maybe you're like, oh, I saw Paul's shop. That was so interesting.
00:17:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um And then the second stage is contemplation. So this is where you're actually thinking about it. Oh, that might be fun. Yeah, that might be fun.
00:17:56
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:17:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think I would like to be a woodworker.
00:17:57
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:17:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm going to maybe learn a little bit more about it and talk to more people. i'm just thinking about it. I haven't done anything yet. And then we move into preparation. Preparation is where you're actually doing things just like you described. So you're buying some buy the tools. I'm going to set up the shop. I might take Eric's classes. I'm watching the YouTube videos, et cetera, cetera. So I am preparing.
00:18:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
then next stage is action. So this is where you're actually, you've started a project, you're moving forward on something. And the final stage is maintenance. And maintenance is where it has become a habit.
00:18:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So motivation isn't such a big issue anymore. You're making one thing after the other. You're living the life of a woodworker. So Sherry had a funny analogy. When we talked about this earlier, we're kind of preparing for the episode, like ideating all this. And we we kind of mapped swimming onto this as an analogy. so you know... Yeah, pre-contemplation was like, hmm, that water looks nice.
00:19:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wonder if it might be refreshing, right? And contemplation is like, I think I might dip my toe in over there. I'm thinking about it.
00:19:10
Oh behave!
Check the temperature, you know?
00:19:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think I might. about it And then ah preparation.
00:19:11
Oh behave!
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Preparation is I got my goggles. I got my swimmies. You guys are fucking the bubbles on your arms, the swimmies, right? I got my suit on, my s SPF.
00:19:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm all ready to go. I got my flippers.
00:19:25
Oh behave!
Got my swim cat.
00:19:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And and yeah and then the the first, and that's the person who buys all the equipment, right? Is like they put their swimmies on it and then they get in the shallow end. This is the, I'm setting up my shop and i'm making shop furniture.
00:19:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They get in the shallow end and they walk around, splash around a bit. Oh, this is kind of fun.
00:19:42
Oh behave!
With the swim he's on, obviously.
00:19:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is nice. With the swimmies on, right? Because even though they can stand in the shallow end, right?
00:19:46
Oh behave!
yeah You know, you gotta be safe.
00:19:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're not actually swimming, you're standing.
00:19:48
Oh behave!
ah
00:19:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then the final stage, which where you're actually making the things routinely is you're doing laps.
00:19:50
Oh behave!
and
00:19:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, in the deep end of the pool. i was like, Oh, it's a great analogy to this whole thing.
00:19:59
Oh behave!
That is a good analogy.
00:20:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:20:01
Oh behave!
So i I've never thought about this. This is interesting. I've never considered the preparation phase before because I grew up in an environment where like I grew up in the trades. My dad had tools. My grandpa had tools. My my neighbors had tools like we just built shit. There was always tools around. So in my mind, like as we were at the beginning of this episode talking about this,
00:20:27
Oh behave!
my thought was not like, well, you don't prepare and then do like those, the do happens. You just, you like, there's no prepare. Like you just start building shit. If you want to build it, if you want to be a woodworker, you don't cogitate and then plan and then purchase and then woodwork. You just start building shit. And I still think, I still think there's some truth to that, but I'm recognizing that,
00:20:51
Oh behave!
the unseen bias that I had was that there was tools available for me to just start building shit. I didn't have to buy things.
00:20:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. it's It sounds to me like you were born into two generations that gave you preparation. Like you were born into preparation. part and parcel of the package.
00:21:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
didn't need to contemplate because you were just sort of born, like you were born in a swimming pool, basically.
00:21:08
Oh behave!
Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Yeah, yeah, it just was like, what is water?
00:21:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so you didn't have to buy swimmies.
00:21:16
Oh behave!
Yeah.
00:21:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. I grew up in this shit, right?
00:21:18
Oh behave!
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
grew up in a swimming pool. Yeah.
00:21:20
Oh behave!
That's fair. That's fair.
00:21:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, so you, which gave you such a leg up, obviously, because you didn't have to go take a class or do all these things. You sort of growing up around that. And so then you, you got those skills much earlier on in life where some people might be who are just getting the idea at age 25, they're starting from scratch.
00:21:41
Oh behave!
Sure, I think like, all right, so so if we use music as an analogy for me, then even though I grew up like playing piano and and playing instruments in school and whatnot, we'll just take like I started playing guitar when I was in my teens, we didn't have any guitars lying around. So I had to figure out A, how much guitar costs and could I afford one? And then within the budget that I could afford, what's the best guitar to buy? There's so many options.
00:22:09
Oh behave!
And how do I even get my hands on a guitar to try it to see if it's a good guitar? And so maybe, coming back to the woodworking, now maybe you go to a trade show, maybe you go to like a Lee Nielsen hand tool event, maybe you take a class, et cetera, et cetera.
00:22:23
Oh behave!
And then you buy a guitar and hey, turns out you fucking suck because you don't know what you're doing. And you're like, did I get a shitty guitar?
00:22:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Exactly.
00:22:30
Oh behave!
I don't know. Must be the guitar. So I got to buy a better guitar because it's not me, obviously.
00:22:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:22:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
now Actually, you know you you talked about sucking right when you first get a guitar. And that that is sort of what you're poking at, Eric, is the next thing we're going to talk about, which is understanding why we have an intention behavior gap.
00:22:51
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:22:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, why does that gap exist? Like, why can't we in a more, in a high, in in a higher percentage of the time, why can't we connect our intentions to our behaviors?
00:23:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Sherry actually came with a list of about six reasons, like underlying the gap. Like why, and you, you poked at one of them. I don't want to suck like that.
00:23:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a very real behavior gap.
00:23:18
Oh behave!
Yeah, nobody wants to suck, man.
00:23:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
especially hob I would call back to woodworking for a second, especially hobbyists who are excellent at their day jobs. Yeah. So many woodworker hobbyists, right. Who are taking classes with you, Eric.
00:23:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They are absolute fucking rock stars at their day job. They're surgeons. They're amazing computer scientists. They're like, whatever, you know, it's, it's all over the map.
00:23:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've seen every occupation come through and they're so good at it. So they don't, a lot of people don't want to feel the pain of of being shit at something when they start.
00:23:57
Oh behave!
So that, in my experience as a teacher, that manifests in two ways. And it could be both or neither in any given person. But these are the two typical ways I see that come out because I think you're 100% spot on.
00:24:09
Oh behave!
ah Usually, they start to, by the end of the week or the end of the two weeks, you can see them like really contending. And like they'll have like... vocal outbursts like, why is this so hard?
00:24:21
Oh behave!
And it's like, du cause it's, it is, and you've never done it, you know? And like, I've seen people be like, like I'm a fucking top tier surgeon in America.
00:24:32
Oh behave!
Why can't I cut a fucking dovetail? Like, cause they're different experiences, man.
00:24:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:24:36
Oh behave!
But the other thing that happens, and I think this stems from that. um And, and depending on the teacher, it can be be perceived very negatively.
00:24:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:24:45
Oh behave!
I know a lot of female teachers who, who, take this as mansplaining and I'm not saying it's not because some people are dicks, but I think that the student who has like almost like an uncontrollable vocal outburst of just like giving information that is unwarranted, it's at least in what I've seen, ah it doesn't feel to me like somebody trying to correct a woman because they're a man and they know more.
00:25:16
Oh behave!
I think it, it usually stems more out of they're so unused to and uncomfortable with not being the person whose voice is heard and respected that they just are like, I have the information. And then it like comes out before they can even stop it.
00:25:31
Oh behave!
You know?
00:25:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:25:31
Oh behave!
ah So now, now granted that could also be them being dicks and in speaking over a woman, but it, it feels oftentimes a lot more like ah ah like almost involuntary.
00:25:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. At this point, Eric, we're going just take a quick break and we'll be right back.
00:25:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. So Eric, you were talking about how your students will kind of have these outbursts.
00:25:58
Oh behave!
ah
00:25:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So say more about that. Are these aha moments?
00:26:03
Oh behave!
I don't think they're aha moments. um I think they're more like so a good example of this. Larissa was teaching a class and she was talking about putting a new table saw blade on the table saw and she was threading the arbor not back onto the machine and on an arbor nut there is a flat side and a pillow side or a rounded side.
00:26:25
Oh behave!
Now through the entirety of my career, I could never have given two fucks about which side goes against the blade and which side doesn't. But this particular gentleman in this class was like, well, there's a pillowed side and it's supposed to go out and the flat side goes against the the stiffener plate.
00:26:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:26:42
Oh behave!
And she was just like, uh-huh, and carried on. you know and And now I'm not saying, I don't know this person. I wasn't at that class. This is an anecdote that that I was told after the fact. That could be somebody very well being like, I know more than woman.
00:26:58
Oh behave!
And so therefore I need to say words. But I have seen that type of thing happen where it feels more just like almost an involuntary vocal outburst because they're just like, I'm just so used to speaking in meetings and people listening and I don't know how to how to sit back and shut the fuck up for two weeks. You know what I mean?
00:27:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
how to be a beginner yeah
00:27:19
Oh behave!
Yeah, what that's exactly it. How to be a student.
00:27:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
well i also wonder if it's when you're a new learner and you do know something you're really proud of that so if you see like somebody and then you're like oh it's the kid in the class who's oh oh oh that's it that's that kid
00:27:34
Oh behave!
Interesting. It's the Hermione Granger. It's the I know, I know, I know. Interesting.
00:27:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
greener And i think that behavior, while some people can perceive it as obnoxious, but ah it does serve a purpose maybe of more fully ingraining that knowledge when we have an opportunity to share it Because when we teach, we learn more.
00:27:51
Oh behave!
interesting
00:27:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so sometimes we might unsolicited teach, which can sometimes annoy people. But I think that's probably what
00:28:00
Oh behave!
Oh, don't get me wrong. It's always annoying.
00:28:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yeah.
00:28:02
Oh behave!
But
00:28:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sherry had a very gracious interpretation that.
00:28:06
Oh behave!
yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Maybe where it's coming from. It's the like, oh, oh, oh, I know this. And it feels good.
00:28:11
Oh behave!
That's an interesting point I hadn't thought about.
00:28:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:28:14
Oh behave!
Yeah, okay. Okay, fair.
00:28:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but So we want to talk about the reasons. So but what we're going to do next is Sherry's got some reasons that explain the intention behavior gap. But before we do that, I just want to pause and have all the listeners think.
00:28:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
in their own life, especially around craft or art? What are some of your biggest intention behavior gaps? yeah Pause for five seconds.
00:28:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. Maybe you thought of one, maybe you need to hit pause and actually think of more. But I think it's good for all of us to have these in mind as Sherry goes through the mechanisms underlying why this occurs. Go ahead.
00:29:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. And I might focus on the most important one, and one that troubles you the most. as we go through these reasons so that you can see which reason you identify the most with. So one I think, which I think we touched on is perfectionism, is this idea that if I can't make something that's amazing and great, I don't want to start.
00:29:22
Oh behave!
Hmm. Hmm.
00:29:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I have trouble starting. a waste of time. It's a waste of time. I'm going be judged. Yes. And so I teach writing, scientific writing, and I see this a lot in my students where if the first draft isn't a perfect draft, they're really frustrated, feeling really demoralized and not realizing how many drafts something could take.
00:29:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so that's perfectionism right there is when we just sort of like in can't tolerate the first drafts of things or the first tries at something.
00:29:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. So have you guys, do you have any, I've gotten over that. Yeah. Like perfectionism,
00:30:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm not a slave to perfectionism and I've gotten over my ego. Like I'm okay with sucking at something, especially when I'm learning it. I don't want to suck after I've done it a long time. Then I get angry and frustrated. But if I'm learning, I give myself grace now. I've tried enough new things to know what it's going to feel like.
00:30:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But that's an important step. you I always say with Keith, you know, Keith and i love talking about this. You can't get to version three without version one, you gotta do it.
00:30:33
Oh behave!
It's true. Yeah.
00:30:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and And you're like, why couldn't I have thought of version three right from the very beginning?
00:30:39
Oh behave!
That's not how it works.
00:30:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because you can't, it's just, yeah, it's just, yeah, making version one is a process that stimulates new creative thinking.
00:30:41
Oh behave!
It's not how it works.
00:30:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I'm i'm okay with sucking.
00:30:46
Oh behave!
or Or maybe I feel like so many people, like they have that one thing, that one creative output in their life where they did get to version three right off the the bat and it just happened.
00:30:59
Oh behave!
And then they think that that is the proper quote unquote way to create rather than going through the iterative process. Like that might happen once for everybody. That's it. That's all you got.
00:31:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no
00:31:09
Oh behave!
But the rest of them, you got to go through versions one, three, four one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. And then eventually it ends up okay.
00:31:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:31:17
Oh behave!
you know um i
00:31:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, how are you about perfectionism?
00:31:21
Oh behave!
i was trying to think of what rather than saying like ah i'm not a perfectionist which i don't think i am i strive for very good work but i understand that the the iterative process is critical to me making good work But in so far as like, where are the areas where I can't stand or can't stomach poor work?
00:31:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:31:46
Oh behave!
I think i think that's probably the reason I don't draw or sketch very much. Like I'm not, I can see a thing in my head and it's vague and it's imperfect and it's kind of cloudy, but it's an idea and it can be iterated upon. And I'm not a good enough illustrator of ideas to draw it down and ah have it make any sense and look at the thing and think it can be iterated upon.
00:32:13
Oh behave!
Once it's down on the page, it feels more permanent. And it's also not good because I'm not a good illustrator. And so I just don't draw it. And i know I know the image can live in my head for a really long time without being adulterated.
00:32:24
Oh behave!
So I just let it stay up there and I don't bother keeping a sketchbook.
00:32:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
when you sorry i'm coughing hold sorry i swallowed some whiskey at the same time as i
00:32:33
Oh behave!
Oh, man, I want to head home, huh?
00:32:38
Oh behave!
There's nothing sexier on a podcast than listening to a middle-aged man cough.
00:32:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm so sorry.
00:32:42
Oh behave!
ah
00:32:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
From smelling whiskey. When you mentioned drawing, that reminded me i was trying so hard to learn how to draw a Japanese dragon. And every time i would try, they just like...
00:32:54
Oh behave!
That sounds like a euphemism, but carry on.
00:32:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
know.
00:32:58
Oh behave!
but
00:32:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They just looked like so dumb and demented and stupid. And I tried so many times. I tried tutorials. I tried this. I tried copying.
00:33:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i traced whole Japanese dragons out of like, and I just couldn't get it. And I gave up and I got really, I got really dejected.
00:33:16
Oh behave!
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i I still, to this day, I still can't really pull it off. And I'm like, ah fuck.
00:33:24
Oh behave!
ah
00:33:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Anyway. All right. So that's perfectionism.
00:33:25
Oh behave!
Sherry, what about you? Hold on, hold on.
00:33:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um Perfect.
00:33:27
Oh behave!
oh You don't get to skate over it.
00:33:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:29
Oh behave!
Yeah, wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:33:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Are you? um You know it was definitely a barrier. i think I shared one time when was on here before starting to play piano and i had played flute before and starting a new instrument.
00:33:39
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:33:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
is going back to ground zero. So back to this example that you gave of that you're really good at something in some other part of your life and then you want to try something new and you suck at it. really That is a very humbling experience. But Yeah, I wanted to kind of start off playing full songs that I like that.
00:34:03
Oh behave!
Yep. Yep.
00:34:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And obviously, that's very ridiculous. But perfectionism is really anxiety. It's anxiety fueled.
00:34:13
Oh behave!
Mmm.
00:34:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's and it's especially if we are sensitive to criticism, or we've been the the object of criticism in our lives. Are you a perfectionist? No, actually, ah i' have a I'm not a perfectionist.
00:34:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i would ah I don't think of myself as a perfectionist. um I do love the idea of giraffes and the fact that giraffes this beautiful.
00:34:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I want you to keep going on the Japanese dragon because all of that is you finding the dragon that you want like that. That whole process or not finding as the case may be.
00:34:43
Oh behave!
the inner dragon
00:34:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
got to keep chasing the dragon.
00:34:50
Oh behave!
well paul's inner dragon is uh that's the subtitle of this episode ah
00:34:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
OK, well, let's know. OK.
00:34:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Take it easy there, Tim. right. We'll move on the next one to rescue Paul. Thank you. Procrastination. So this is when I'm going to start, but it's summer and summer's so busy. So I'm going to wait until fall or I'm going wait until something in my life has cleared up or I'm going to... There's this endless stream of reasons why right now is not the time, but the time is coming and it's coming later.
00:35:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and that's just a moving target for... The stars will align someday. Right. But one of the things that Sherry and I were talking about prior to this episode, and it's some something I found, you know, in the literature as I was reading, it said, like some of the psychology research says procrastination isn't laziness. Right.
00:35:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right It's an emotional response. It's an emotional avoidance is what it is. It's not laziness. It is It's avoidance of the frustration of starting because back to the drafts and the shitty initial products products and that sort of thing, that is a very frustrating process. When you're new, like when I'm playing piano and it sounds like crap, that is friction. It's uncomfortable. Yeah. it's feeling It's feeling inadequate. And so procrastination is really, yeah, our avoiding the discomfort of the that comes with the experience. Even though we know if I get good at this, when I get good at this, it's going to be so amazing. But there's this hump of discomfort that I have to get through. And so i want to wait till the stars align and I'm ready for that discomfort.
00:36:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so we have to Go ahead. Yeah. yeah Go ahead. All right. All of us want to say something at the same time.
00:36:44
Oh behave!
Well, so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.
00:36:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Go ahead. Eric, you go first.
00:36:48
Oh behave!
So, so I'm, I'm wondering, so I definitely was a procrastinator when I was a child.
00:36:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:36:53
Oh behave!
Like I hated, it was, it was the, um, now that you're, you're painting it in like the emotional response way, that is interesting. We've talked many times on this podcast that I was a terrible student.
00:37:03
Oh behave!
I'm a slow reader, still am. Um, and, and I think the labor of how much energy it took, to do the homework, specifically reading homework, I would just not do it, and I would push it off. um but But these days, i guess my question is, I'm curious, Sherry, how you would label this, because I don't think of myself as a procrastinator anymore.
00:37:27
Oh behave!
um The way that I have learned that I work now, One major caveat on this being like deadlines are still a very real thing and sometimes you got to just shut the fuck up and do the work, right? But if if deadlines are not an issue, if it is a personal project, like say the kitchen, it's not me avoiding doing the countertops.
00:37:48
Oh behave!
It is, I know that one day I will wake up and go, okay, I'm sick of looking at this kitchen. It's time to do the countertops. and And so it doesn't at least the emotional response for me is not like I am trying not to do it.
00:38:02
Oh behave!
It's I'm waiting for the day where I wake up and go, I'm sick of looking at these fucking countertops. Let's get it did. So is that procrastination?
00:38:11
Oh behave!
She's like, yeah. yeah
00:38:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think there's an element of of procrastination in there, but I feel like there's something more in there. It's not just a day is going to come and you wake up and voila, like this is going to happen.
00:38:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
there I think the discomfort of seeing it undone will exceed the discomfort of diving in.
00:38:30
Oh behave!
Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:38:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Every day, more stacks.
00:38:34
Oh behave!
But but I yes, I, I agree with you on that.
00:38:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Once that tip balances tip, that's the day you wake up.
00:38:39
Oh behave!
I'm not saying that's not the case. But it's not like, it's not as though I wake up every day and go down in the kitchen and I'm frustrated at the state of the kitchen. I'm just like, this is just what the kitchen is.
00:38:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:38:49
Oh behave!
And there will be a day where I wake up and go, okay, I just don't want the kitchen to be like this anymore. Let's change it
00:38:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:38:55
Oh behave!
You know, so it's not it's not an emotional tension, but I do hear your point of like one day that the scales will tip.
00:38:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah Yeah. Yeah. But Eric, I don't know. Maybe it is an emotional tension. Maybe you're just not recognizing it. Maybe it's like, oh, the the thought of wasting a week.
00:39:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It just like drywalling and ripping that shit out. It's boring.
00:39:13
Oh behave!
Yeah, that's not that's not enjoyable.
00:39:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah i'm I'm not.
00:39:15
Oh behave!
Yeah.
00:39:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Maybe that's the emotional tension you're avoiding. Like it's not earning money. It's not advancing my career. It's not intellectually interesting. It's just fucking work.
00:39:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I don't feel like it. And to procrastinate, we don't necessarily have to put conscious attention into the decision.
00:39:29
Oh behave!
Yeah.
00:39:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so it sounds like it comes up for you from time to time, but not every day you're like, oh, I got to do it. ah But from time to time, like it bubbled up into your awareness during this conversation.
00:39:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then maybe weeks will go by. You don't think about it until maybe you see the stuff and you're like, oh, yeah, I got to do that. But so I still think it can it may be classified as procrastination.
00:39:56
Oh behave!
That's fair. Well, i'm I'm asking.
00:39:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
though
00:39:58
Oh behave!
I'm not like trying to defend and say it's not procrastination.
00:39:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah,
00:40:00
Oh behave!
I was genuinely curious. And that's a fair point of like, it does bubble up sometimes when I look at them go like, this kitchen is fucking like this tile is ugly, though, you know?
00:40:10
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:40:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah. You're avoiding the boredom. You're avoiding avoiding the boredom of having to just tough it out for that week.
00:40:17
Oh behave!
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:40:19
Oh behave!
Okay, fair enough.
00:40:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's um I do think there's an emotional component behind it, just like Sherry said.
00:40:24
Oh behave!
That's fair.
00:40:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and And to be fair, Eric, I have put off cleaning our shed for like years, years. And I hit my boiling point this summer when I couldn't get to a fucking thing and I stubbed my toe on something.
00:40:36
Oh behave!
Hmm. Yep.
00:40:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I banged banged my shin on something else and I yell out to the shit. i was like, Fucking shit like Vicky we have to clean his fucking shit like I hit the boiling point and so we clean the shed and then I had the same boiling point about our basement about a week after and we cleaned our basement and today Literally today I hit the boiling point on our packing room where I pack all my shit and send out and Vicky, you know sells her shit on eBay And is filthy.
00:40:46
Oh behave!
ah
00:41:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's trash all ah like packing supplies and paper scraps and string everywhere. And it's been like that for two years. And I'm like, I just hit the boiling point. So like, Eric, I'm not calling you out on your kitchen, bro.
00:41:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm like, right.
00:41:21
Oh behave!
That's fair. That's fair.
00:41:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I need to stub your toe.
00:41:23
Oh behave!
Yeah.
00:41:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
counter I am like, and that good I am neck deep in frustration at the things I have not done. All right. So, but I think it is interesting of this phenomenon of the not doing becomes more inversive than the doing.
00:41:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah but So this gets to another reason that we... We have the intention behavior gap, which is we experience the process as uncomfortable or we just don't like the process of it. So like cleaning out the shed actually doesn't sound, the steps of that don't sound super fun. The outcome sounds good. outcome's awesome. And it she feels super good when you see it, right? But the process itself- And it's not even just the frustration, because that doesn't sound like a frustrating process. It's just something that is just aversive. It's not fun. I don't like it. So that's another reason we have the intention behavior gap is when you really think about the steps to do this thing.
00:42:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
kind of like, I don't want to do that. That's my fat eating problem. I don't want to not eat and feel hungry.
00:42:26
Oh behave!
a
00:42:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I i can't, i yeah, I don't want to do the steps. Well, in that case, there's something kind of competing with, you know, when it comes diet. You've got things competing, like tasty foods.
00:42:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But what you said, the process is uncomfortable and frustrating. I want to eat the bowl of cereal at 10 at night because that's what I do.
00:42:41
Oh behave!
ah
00:42:45
Oh behave!
Goddamn right.
00:42:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:42:46
Oh behave!
So I got invented corn pops for Christ's sake.
00:42:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:42:49
Oh behave!
Come on.
00:42:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wait, so but straight to the so wait I just want to summarize. So, so, so far, the reasons you've given our perfectionism, procrastination, which is not laziness.
00:43:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's under, it's underwritten by an emotional avoidance, right?
00:43:02
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:43:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
with And honestly, on totally that just that realization that procrastination isn't laziness, but it's underlying an emotional avoidance.
00:43:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That insight alone was worth doing this entire fucking show because I will think of that for the rest of my life.
00:43:19
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:43:21
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:43:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That will, that'll, that changes me permanently. And I want to just add to that to not refer to yourself. I don't think you refer to yourself as this, but just for anyone listening out there, don't refer to yourself as a procrastinator. There are things that we all procrastinate on. And then there are things that you don't procrastinate on. You don't want to give yourself a label. Yeah.
00:43:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
because it usually is contextual as opposed to a character situation. So just want to put that out there. All right, so perfectionism, yeah procrastination, and we experience the process of of doing the thing as either uncomfortable or maybe frustrating. Those are three reasons. And how many more do you have? Three more? Yeah. So another one would I would call a skills deficit. So this is the person who doesn't know where to start.
00:44:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So they have all the stuff, but they're just sort of like, I don't know what the steps I don't know what to do next. And this usually lends to mentorship or need for training or something like that. But I wonder, since you teach a class, Eric, do you see that where people are coming in where they're prepared, but they are clueless as to where to begin?
00:44:35
Oh behave!
yeah I mean, yes. More specifically, like, i guess what I see is, and maybe this is what you're getting at, is people who have done all of the requisite research, people who have studied, they've listened to the podcast, they've watched the YouTube videos, they bought the tools, and then they come in and they they understand the theory.
00:44:55
Oh behave!
but their arm can't do the thing. Their hand can't do the thing.
00:44:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:44:59
Oh behave!
They don't know how to stand at the table saw so that they're comfortable in making an accurate cut rather than like, you know, wandering off toward the blade and putting themselves in a position of danger. So um to that extent, the the skills deficit is very like it shows up day one.
00:45:15
Oh behave!
um I think the other I don't know if this is a skill deficit, but the thing that I see um a lot is the the maybe it's skills deficit fatigue, like the learning fatigue they have to that over the course of a week or two weeks or a month, they they become so drained and so exhausted that like their skills diminish even more because they're not used to being on their feet for eight hours, being at the bench for eight hours, uh, uh, making repetitive motions over and over again.
00:45:50
Oh behave!
They're using minor muscle groups that they haven't used in fucking 15 years. Um, and so, and so that skill deficit, like it's like the, I don't know, have you guys have skied.
00:45:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or ever.
00:46:01
Oh behave!
Yeah.
00:46:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:46:02
Oh behave!
couple of times, yeah, or many a time.
00:46:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. A lot of skills deficits on that for me.
00:46:04
Oh behave!
so like yeah So as a person who has skied like five times in my life, I know quite well that like the first run down the mountain going to be fucking terrible.
00:46:14
Oh behave!
Second one is slightly better than the the first. Third one is slightly better than the second. Usually by the fourth or fifth, the regression starts to happen because now you think you know what you're doing, but your body is fatigued, right?
00:46:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:46:27
Oh behave!
So the skills deficit, but also the the muscle memory and the the strength deficit.
00:46:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:46:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yep That's a great metaphor that I like the skiing. I feel like I experienced this with piano too. I got to a point where the cognitive effort of sort of hitting ah ah a level to where the cognitive effort was going to kind of go next level and it was really taxing my brain. and ah And so I kind of stopped.
00:46:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so I need to go back to it and push through that. So I think it's not only even just getting started, It can be when you're sort of moving to the next level and you're like, oh now I have to learn this whole new thing and it's going to be really hard and I need a break.
00:47:13
Oh behave!
You know, um one of the things I've noticed as a teacher is ah some of the folks with the highest skill sets, like the the the smallest amount of skill deficit from one trade to another, gorillas, weirdly enough.
00:47:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Really?
00:47:30
Oh behave!
Yeah. And...
00:47:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you how How many gorillas do you get in your class typically, Eric?
00:47:32
Oh behave!
ah
00:47:35
Oh behave!
Well, it's not so much in my class, but I've heard, I've heard tale that our our friends over at Gorilla Glue, the sponsor of this week's episode, do hire a fleet of gorillas.
00:47:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:47:48
Oh behave!
It's, I believe it's company like employee owned.
00:47:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wait, wait, a question. So it's not made of gorillas, but perhaps made...
00:47:52
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:47:55
Oh behave!
There's no, and it's made for gorillas by gorillas of gorillas.
00:47:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it has...
00:47:59
Oh behave!
I think, I think that's how it goes.
00:48:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
don
00:48:02
Oh behave!
Um, uh, well, let me, let me tell you something.
00:48:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, Eric. No, no. No, no.
00:48:04
Oh behave!
Let me tell you something about gorilla glue, wood glue.
00:48:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Please do.
00:48:07
Oh behave!
Uh, it has less water, more glue, less gorilla and a stronger bond than the other guys.
00:48:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Please do
00:48:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
well
00:48:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
do.
00:48:12
Oh behave!
Uh, it dries a natural color with less yellowing.
00:48:16
Oh behave!
and cleans up with water. um And it's the number one most used Gorilla wood glue brands among woodworking pros.
00:48:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Don't
00:48:26
Oh behave!
And honestly, it's just as easy if you've never used a Gorilla based material before or if you're just getting started.
00:48:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I can vouch for that.
00:48:33
Oh behave!
It's perfect. I mean, honestly, Paul, Paul, how do you feel Gorillas?
00:48:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
turn nocar glu and I
00:48:40
Oh behave!
no
00:48:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Gorilla based glue material?
00:48:45
Oh behave!
i don't It's organic matter, you know?
00:48:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They don't make it out of gorillas. oh oh Well, i actually, i did I used it just last week to be totally transparent. I used it last week.
00:48:54
Oh behave!
Yeah?
00:48:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, they're wood glue because my neighbor who has a year old daughter, i'm I'm helping him make a baby gate for his front porch.
00:49:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so he can like, you know, like they have a nice front porch and I just helped him do all the the slats on it out of e-pay. Like I taught him how to do flooring and he's never done woodworking before.
00:49:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he's like, can we make a baby gate so she doesn't fall down the stairs to her death? And I was like, yeah, that sounds like a great idea.
00:49:21
Oh behave!
Fuck yeah.
00:49:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we used Gorilla wood glue to glue up.
00:49:24
Oh behave!
but
00:49:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was an e-pay. it was e-pay. He made the gate out of e-pay. So it's like a metric ton in terms of weight. Yeah, but we used Gorilla wood glue. Worked great.
00:49:35
Oh behave!
and And you used Gorilla Woodfiller on it too, right?
00:49:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I did not because I'm not a...
00:49:40
Oh behave!
hey Paul, you used Gorilla Woodfiller on it too, right?
00:49:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, I did, Eric.
00:49:46
Oh behave!
Goddamn right. And how good was it Tell the people how good it was.
00:49:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was fantastic. Made by... gorilla No, it's not made by Gorillaz.
00:49:53
Oh behave!
Of gorillas by gorillas for the gorillas. ah
00:49:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's not. It's not. Okay, enough. Enough. Oh, my God.
00:49:59
Oh behave!
All right. Gorilla tough enough for the pros. Easy enough for everybody. Get yours today at gorillatough.com slash woodworking is BS. That's gorillatough.com slash woodworking is BS.
00:50:10
Oh behave!
You know who also makes a fine adhesive?
00:50:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Please tell me.
00:50:16
Oh behave!
Our brand new sponsors and longtime friends.
00:50:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yes.
00:50:20
Oh behave!
Boat of the total. Total boat.
00:50:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Total Boat. total i was at I was just at Total Boat headquarters for the first time about a week ah yeah about a week ago.
00:50:23
Oh behave!
Tell us about Total Boat, Pauly D.
00:50:30
Oh behave!
Humble brag.
00:50:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
though ah No, it's not a humble brag.
00:50:34
Oh behave!
but
00:50:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, maybe it is. um The owner, Mike, and I have become fast friends after meeting at con ah woodworky Jason Bourbon Moth's ah woodworking conference out in Arizona this year.
00:50:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he took me out on his total boat.
00:50:50
Oh behave!
There's the humble brag.
00:50:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's the humble brag. We had a nice...
00:50:53
Oh behave!
Is the boat named Total? It has to be, right?
00:50:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It is not, it is not.
00:50:56
Oh behave!
Son of a bitch.
00:50:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, it is not, it is not.
00:50:58
Oh behave!
Mikey, what are we doing?
00:50:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I got to see what their company is like at their headquarters, like behind the scenes. And I'll tell you what, man, they very much care about what the maker community thinks of their products and how we use them.
00:51:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And they asked, like the first thing they asked is what can we do better? Literally, what can we do better in terms of service or like products not working the way you expect?
00:51:18
Oh behave!
Hmm.
00:51:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Literally, I'm not joking. Like that was the first question. I was like, I don't know what to say because everything I've used works great. So i don't know.
00:51:32
Oh behave!
Well, that's that's wonderful, but I'm sure they're paying us to talk about their products and not our customer service representatives. So ah what what do you have to say about the product that they actually put out into the world, buddy boy?
00:51:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric. like
00:51:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, I'll tell you what, and they're thinking about making this like ah actual kit, is, um you know, I've used, ah I've poured metal powders in epoxy as a way to approximate pure metal, right? And what that allows you to do is to carve intricate patterns, super intricate, crazy patterns that you could never fill by hand with like solid metal wire. It would take you months of work. And what you can do is you can take metal powder, mix it with Total Boat's high performance epoxy, mix it into like kind of a paste and flow that into all these crazy patterns. And after you, you know, ah get off the excess,
00:52:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah yeah after cures, you take off the excess, know, sanding or plating or whatever, and you polish it, it looks like real metal. If you can get enough of the powder in and flow it in without air bubbles.
00:52:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I've been working on this technique for years. People reach out to me all the time and they're like, what epoxy do you use? And I'm like, TotalBoat High Performance Epoxy. And the reason the reason I use that is because, and this is this is the God's honest truth,
00:52:55
Oh behave!
Hell
00:53:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was looking for the lowest viscosity epoxy. Why? Because I could add more metal powder before it turned into a paste. I wanted to add as much metal powder as possible. So if I start with the lowest viscosity epoxy, I can add more metal powder. When I Googled lowest viscosity epoxy, this is before I knew Total Boat.
00:53:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Their high performance epoxy came up in my Google search.
00:53:24
Oh behave!
No shit.
00:53:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. And that's how I initially got in touch with them. I kid you not.
00:53:30
Oh behave!
Interesting. So you're still using the high performance.
00:53:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow. A hundred percent.
00:53:34
Oh behave!
Okay. Curious. Well, the the thing...
00:53:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's what I use for all the metal powder inlays.
00:53:37
Oh behave!
The thing, I mean, we could we could talk about all the ways in which I've worked with Total Boat over the the years. They've been a wonderful company to work with. The thing that I still love the most from them is the penetrating epoxy um because it allows me to stabilize ah punky pieces of wood that would be otherwise insufficiently stable to to make into sculptures or pieces of furniture.
00:54:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've never, I've never thought to do that.
00:54:00
Oh behave!
And, oh, ah Well, so so that's why I was asking because the the penetrating is even less viscous than the high performance.
00:54:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Should I do that?
00:54:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think Mike, the owner was like, you should try that instead of high performance.
00:54:10
Oh behave!
It's like water. Yeah, you absolutely should try it.
00:54:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. And I said I would, but I haven't tried it yet.
00:54:15
Oh behave!
All right, give it a shot.
00:54:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I got it.
00:54:18
Oh behave!
Well, um go support Total Boat.
00:54:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Noted.
00:54:22
Oh behave!
I'm sure that they probably provided us a link that I don't have, but tell them we sent you. Yeah.
00:54:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah And if you want to do the metal powder in light, you can hit me up.
00:54:33
Oh behave!
Hell yeah. And thanks to Total Boat for sponsoring this this video. Also, you know who doesn't have a skills deficit?
00:54:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and I do know.
00:54:41
Oh behave!
Our Lord and Savior, William Teresa Burkle.
00:54:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Lord and Savior.
00:54:43
Oh behave!
Praise be.
00:54:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Teresa. Thank you.
00:54:45
Oh behave!
Now, let me tell you a couple of things because I just got a new flyer from Billiam. From August 1st August 31st, 20% off select 20-volt Ionic Drive TM products.
00:54:58
Oh behave!
Oh, man, we're coming back with the the quad drive bullshit. There's a lot of Craig things. There's a lot of Craig things on sale.
00:55:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Did you just call the thing he see he's...
00:55:08
Oh behave!
No, no, no.
00:55:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric?
00:55:09
Oh behave!
The quad drive from the first ad read ever?
00:55:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric?
00:55:13
Oh behave!
You don't remember?
00:55:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ugh.
00:55:14
Oh behave!
ah
00:55:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no
00:55:16
Oh behave!
callback. Anyway, a bunch of Craig shit is on sale. You should go buy that from him. Uh, my foul is, uh, there's a cordless plunge sale that you can win. um that's a $1,360 value.
00:55:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:55:31
Oh behave!
So that is going to run through September 18th. Go check that out. And, uh, as always 10% off wood returning blanks, roughs on boards and all 50% off all slabs in store. So, uh,
00:55:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
50%?
00:55:44
Oh behave!
50% in store legit and he and he he's got a legit massive selection like he's he's got some good shit over there so go check it out wtbwoodworking.com uh or 390 pike road in huntington valley pennsylvania and uh you know go in there and ask him for a caress tell him we sent you he'll he'll know what it means
00:55:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a huge, actually, like that's actually real. Huh.
00:55:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:56:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Tell him Eric wanted a sweet caress. Caress me like you caress Eric.
00:56:08
Oh behave!
god damn right that's all i ever wanted out of life
00:56:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, God. All right. So worst ad reads ever.
00:56:13
Oh behave!
We did great.
00:56:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Moving on. Sherry, what are some other reasons that we the other other reasons underlying the intention behavior gap? so this one we would call a cognitive distortion, which is just a jargony term that refers to...
00:56:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a person just sort of not really believing that they can do it. So someone who's who might say to themselves or kind of believe in their heart, I'm not really a woodworker. I'm not like those guys. I'm not like Eric. I don't like Paul.
00:56:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm just not that. So like, who am I kidding? Who am I fooling with all this stuff? So you tell yourself you're not capable.
00:56:56
Oh behave!
OK.
00:56:59
Oh behave!
ken Can I ask? I've got two questions coming up from that. Number one, is the opposite also considered cognitive distortion, like people who are overconfident bordering on like narcissism? right like Like, of course I can fucking do it.
00:57:14
Oh behave!
you know
00:57:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. I mean, that could be considered a cognitive dis disorder. So yeah the overconfidence and what happens with overconfidence is they're probably underestimating the effort.
00:57:26
Oh behave!
Hmm. Hmm.
00:57:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and And that's another reason too, that that would be on the list of really underestimating all the work that might go into achieving the goal you have in your head. So we kind of have like both sides of that coin of somebody who's like, I just don't have it in me as in like, I'm not a natural.
00:57:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you hear this a lot about all kinds of different things. Like I work with people around weight management sometimes. And what people say is like, oh, well, I'm just one of those people who hates exercise, or I was just born to be overweight or they, so they kind of come up with these ideas that they feel very latched onto.
00:58:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There was no evidence for them.
00:58:08
Oh behave!
Hmm. That's
00:58:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They're just sort of beliefs about themselves. And then the beliefs really become a barrier to making progress because if you're in your heart or hearts think that you're not good at a thing, are you really going to be putting in?
00:58:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You, Sherry, you said there was a psychology, uh, idiom.
00:58:21
Oh behave!
that's fair
00:58:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Actually it's Henry Ford said, this is one of my favorite quotes. He said, if you think you can do a thing or you think you can't, you're right. It's one of my favorite things.
00:58:36
Oh behave!
Hmm. It's true.
00:58:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that.
00:58:39
Oh behave!
That's true.
00:58:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's so true.
00:58:40
Oh behave!
yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so, okay. Well, now, now I feel bad bringing up my second question, uh, because it, I, after the, the struggling with weights, uh, anecdote, but like,
00:58:53
Oh behave!
i am ah I agree with that Henry Ford saying 100%. If you decide that you are going to figure out how to cut dovetails, anybody can fucking figure out how to cut dovetails. It's not that fucking hard.
00:59:09
Oh behave!
But... there are people who are more that have a natural aptitude toward it and other people who struggle with it. So what do you do if the person who is kind of like, well, I'm just not meant to be good at this kind of sucks?
00:59:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, they're really not good at it.
00:59:29
Oh behave!
Like, yeah.
00:59:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you're like, you're right.
00:59:32
Oh behave!
ah Yeah, like and like, but but like, that's okay.
00:59:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're not. Yeah.
00:59:35
Oh behave!
They might be a fucking brilliant pianist, you know, and I'm not and I would I would kill to be an an amazing piano player.
00:59:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:59:42
Oh behave!
But I'm not. I'm very average. And that's fine. That's not in my skill set. But for whatever reason, cutting dovetails, like I could do that shit my sleep. And I and I kind of always could.
00:59:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, well, you're probably more experienced in the person that you had in mind. And this also might even border a little bit into the perfectionism too, is like, if I can't do it perfectly, then why bother?
01:00:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm only average at this. So yeah, what's wrong with being average at it?
01:00:09
Oh behave!
Yeah, it's okay.
01:00:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, it would we're not all Mozart here.
01:00:10
Oh behave!
It's okay to kind of suck if it brings you joy.
01:00:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. um But I wanted to kind of get back to the underestimation of effort. Another reason. Yeah, like the underestimation of effort reason and that, okay, so working with people in weight management, I saw this a lot where people would say, i want to lose 60 pounds.
01:00:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I want to do that, let's say, by the end of the year. we've got less than six months left. 50 pounds in six months? Yeah. So then they they might come back and and and ask, okay, so how's it going so far? And they'd say, well. 10 pounds a month. um shit I went for a walk this week, and I was cutting back on some stacking.
01:00:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I was surprised I didn't lose any weight.
01:00:53
Oh behave!
Yep. yep
01:00:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so what I was seeing when, and I would see this over and over again, is kind of the expectation of getting a bigger outcome from smaller efforts. And so really not sort of appreciating, like if you really want to lose 60 pounds in six months or 50 pounds in six months,
01:01:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the amount of energy that would have to go into this would be extraordinary. Like you would really have to just convert your whole lifestyle.
01:01:25
Oh behave!
Mm-hmm.
01:01:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It would be extraordinarily difficult. And so and I'm sure with woodworking, that can be the the case too, where someone has this, oh, I want to make this thing. And they maybe they show you a picture of something that they really have in mind.
01:01:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and And I'm curious, Eric, from you, like, have you seen that where you got the sense, like, this person has no idea, like, what goes into... Underestimating the effort.
01:01:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This...
01:01:50
Oh behave!
that's That's the first day of every class I ever teach. Because because most of the most of the classes I teach are design-based in some way.
01:01:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, okay. Mm-hmm.
01:01:57
Oh behave!
So they have some creative freedom over the project. We design it. And it's always like, so going to build a chest of drawers. And it's going to be, you know, seven feet long by four feet high.
01:02:10
Oh behave!
And it's going to have 18 drawers and they're all going to be hand cut dovetails.
01:02:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
01:02:14
Oh behave!
And it's just like, go fuck yourself, man. Like, it's not you like you have zero concept of like, so. And so then the question, it becomes like, How do we compromise? And I have to figure out what, ah as the teacher, what your ultimate goal is. Is your ultimate goal to learn and to walk away with a half-done project, but you've gained skill? Is your ultimate goal to walk away with a finished project so that you feel a sense of completion? Um, do you have the capacity to finish this project at home? Cause if you don't have a workshop leaving with a half done project is not helpful.
01:02:46
Oh behave!
Right? So then it becomes this tug of war game of like, okay, how much can I give you so that by the end of this week, two weeks, one month, you feel like you have gotten out of it, what you hoped to get out of it when you came so that you had a positive experience and you go back and you continue to want to work.
01:03:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, you sound like a good teacher. the fact that you think about that up front. Because you're preparing them for reality.
01:03:10
Oh behave!
I also make a lot of dick jokes, so I don't know, you know? is that
01:03:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that. no, really. I know, really you take a compliment you you bitch. ah No, really, the fact that you think about them in that way, think about what would what's going to affect them in the end and what they're capable of and what would really drive them up front is really thoughtful.
01:03:28
Oh behave!
Well, I mean, all... Ultimately, the the the hope is that they continue to make things, right? Like there's this thing that that I love, that they love, and I want them to ah have a positive association with it so that when they go home, they want to continue to do the thing.
01:03:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:03:45
Oh behave!
And if, if their goal was to build skill and I'm like, make a dumb thing. So it's done. They're going to be like, I just fucking wasted two weeks. Like what was the point?
01:03:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:54
Oh behave!
And they're going frustrated simultaneously.
01:03:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Hmm.
01:03:56
Oh behave!
If all they want out of the fucking class is to hand cut some dovetails, then why am I telling them to, to like, you know, do anything? Why am I telling them to pin the rabbits? Like who gives a shit?
01:04:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
01:04:06
Oh behave!
Let them cut dovetails.
01:04:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
01:04:08
Oh behave!
They're not going to get it done. It's fine. Yeah.
01:04:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah But I think whenever we're new at something that is very complex, we're we're always kind of bringing a little bit of this into it. so like So if you feel like you've underestimated the effort of something, like I don't i don't think it necessarily means that you're stupid or naive or that sort of thing. You just don't know what you don't know what you don't know. And so the willingness to learn before you get too set on yeah something that's enormous, because then you go away feeling like a failure. So back to my case of like the person wants to lose 50 pounds in six months, they're gonna they the
01:04:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the risk is that they sort of step into a failure experience because their goal was so much bigger than where they're at in terms of the steps that I can take. And so you want to kind of get those things aligned a little bit better. Like let's bring your goal down and to match kind of where you're in terms of the energy that you want to put in it so that you don't end up saying I'm a failure.
01:05:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm not good at this because that's where that could go if
01:05:12
Oh behave!
but But the danger of it is like, you I'm 100% with you, but they could get to the point of frustration of like, this person is not letting me, like they're holding me back.
01:05:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:05:23
Oh behave!
They're not letting me do the thing, you know?
01:05:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yup.
01:05:25
Oh behave!
And and then they're like, well, fuck you. I'm going to strike out and do it on my own.
01:05:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Then they fail completely.
01:05:29
Oh behave!
and then they And then they invariably fail, right?
01:05:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yes Yeah.
01:05:33
Oh behave!
I was just talking with a friend. I'm going to try to do this without using names of people or institutions. But I was just talking with a friend who ah is ah a full-time woodworking educator and rewriting a program um to set students up for success more.
01:05:50
Oh behave!
Now, the thing about this particular program is the the second project of the the program that the students design requires a door in a drawer. And every single time without failure, ah students want to do like two drawers, three drawers, four drawers in this particular project.
01:06:07
Oh behave!
And the previous project didn't teach them how to make drawers. So they didn't know how much effort goes into making and fitting a proper drawer. So he just redesigned the beginning of the program so that this upcoming year, there'll be a sideboard will be the first project that they do so that they have the opportunity to make a drawer so that they then go, okay, we're now designing the bigger project.
01:06:30
Oh behave!
And when he goes, you're not making three drawers, they go, yeah, that was actually a real pain in the ass. So I don't want to make three drawers, you know?
01:06:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah That's smart.
01:06:37
Oh behave!
Yeah.
01:06:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a Comment about underestimating the effort. I think as woodworkers, we chronically underestimate the amount of time things are going to take.
01:06:48
Oh behave!
Constantly.
01:06:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're terrible.
01:06:49
Oh behave!
Uh-huh.
01:06:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Even even with experience, we're constantly underestimating the time involved because we don't figure in the oh shit moments or things going sideways or that mistake or that.
01:06:52
Oh behave!
Uh-huh.
01:07:02
Oh behave!
Or just like, I'm fucking tired on a Tuesday and it takes me a little longer.
01:07:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. right Yeah, totally. Yeah.
01:07:06
Oh behave!
Uh-huh.
01:07:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. We have this idealized version of ourselves that we're going to be in the shop till 11, 8 PM every night, just absolutely fucking freshening it.
01:07:14
Oh behave!
Yeah, my body is still 24 in my mind.
01:07:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:07:16
Oh behave!
Hmm. ah
01:07:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. So that's one thing I noticed. And also about underestimating the effort is customers. Hmm. And we put a price and they're like, huh?
01:07:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why is this price so high? And they have no idea of the effort. So recently, um one of ah my wife's childhood friends asked me if I would make a wedding gift for him to give to his niece.
01:07:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And was like, absolutely. Absolutely. And I don't have a gotcha. This isn't a gotcha story, Eric. You're giving me that look like, did he underestimate?
01:07:52
Oh behave!
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:07:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, no.
01:07:54
Oh behave!
What's his fucking name?
01:07:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He's actually, no no no, no, no, no.
01:07:55
Oh behave!
I'm coming at him right now. now
01:07:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He actually has done some woodworking and he cut off part of a finger once. um But that's another story for another time.
01:08:04
Oh behave!
Oops.
01:08:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So he asked me to do it now. But um he he said, I would love to learn. Can I make, can I do a little bit of the project with you? And he's one of my, you know, he's one of our, me and my wife's like, like I said, he went to prom with my wife, like like platonically, but like, like this is one of her oldest, bestest friends.
01:08:21
Oh behave!
Yeah. Yeah.
01:08:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I love him to pieces.
01:08:26
Oh behave!
yeah
01:08:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. And i was like, absolutely. And we spent a day working on the serving board. Which seems simple. A serving board.
01:08:36
Oh behave!
yeah
01:08:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What's a serving board, right? Like a little inlay, a little handhold, little foot, little you know little book match. No big deal, right? And he saw, and I don't think he was surprised, but he saw what went into a very, so quote unquote, simple project.
01:08:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he's like, whoa. that's That's okay. And like, you know, I gave him, um you know, the the final price and he wanted to pay me more because he understood the effort involved.
01:08:56
Oh behave!
Yep.
01:09:03
Oh behave!
Classic move.
01:09:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, he understood. No, but he understood the effort involved because he has done some woodworking and and he saw it firsthand with me in the shop. So talk about underestimating the effort. I think it's both us and our customers underestimate the effort of woodworking.
01:09:19
Oh behave!
Oh, 100%.
01:09:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, yeah yeah, we agree about underestimating the effort. Now, Sherry, of course, as any responsible psychologist, comes offering solutions from the psychology literature to help bridge, help us, help all of us break through our intention,
01:09:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
behavior gap. That is me losing my fat suit. That is the preparers getting out of building shop furniture and actually breaking into making the table.
01:09:51
Oh behave!
It's me doing my fucking kitchen for Christ's sake.
01:09:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They always, yes, there you go, Eric.
01:09:54
Oh behave!
Yeah.
01:09:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, sure. What you got for how to solve this? Okay. So the first thing i will put out there is you want to sort of ask yourself what feeling you might be avoiding. Because remember we talked about how a lot of these do have an emotional component, like if it's procrastination, if it's perfectionism.
01:10:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So not what are you avoiding, but what feeling feeling are you and avoiding? Is it anxiety? Is it That's a great question.
01:10:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but but ah ah
01:10:25
Oh behave!
That's a difficult question. I don't think I'm comfortable having this conversation publicly, Sherry. I don't know. ah
01:10:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, when it comes to your counter, do you have a sense of, is there a feeling that you're avoiding or with, or with the weight loss, Paul?
01:10:37
Oh behave!
Um, I, I think, I think that's a fair point.
01:10:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ah, okay. Hmm.
01:10:40
Oh behave!
I think Paul nailed it earlier when he said the boredom, like the boredom of doing it. It's just like, there's no, there's no interest in having a nice kitchen is not a thing that motivates me.
01:10:52
Oh behave!
Like, I don't give a fuck. Like the counter counts, you know, like it's fine. Like it works.
01:10:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:10:56
Oh behave!
ah Um, but so the doing of the work is not interesting and or engaging to me.
01:11:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah yeah and the opportunity cost of not of doing not like when you're doing that you can't be doing other things right yeah
01:11:03
Oh behave!
So it's just, it's just work.
01:11:10
Oh behave!
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's i'm not i'm not I'm not even not making money. I'm actively losing money because I'm not doing my job.
01:11:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So then there's also like some anxiety. you're avoiding the anxiety of the loss of opportunity of like, oh, I'm wasting my time on this. I could be making money. I don't know if the woodworking bullshit.
01:11:28
Oh behave!
Christ.
01:11:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I told you we were going to hurt some feelings.
01:11:29
Oh behave!
Yeah, i don't know. I just didn't know was going to be mine.
01:11:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i don't know if everyone's ready for this. Ha ha ha!
01:11:34
Oh behave!
Jesus.
01:11:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, mean would look we because that's that's going to lead to solutions. So the boredom, what I immediately thought of was how Paul invited you over when this kitchen needed to be done, because, well, he he needed your scales, but he probably it makes it more fun when you're doing it with somebody.
01:11:39
Oh behave!
yeah.
01:11:51
Oh behave!
Oh, 100%.
01:11:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, it was way more fun.
01:11:53
Oh behave!
And don't get me wrong. I would be more than happy to work on Paul's Kitchen any day of the fucking week because it means I get to hang with Paul.
01:11:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:12:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I bet if I was like, Eric, I'm coming down.
01:12:02
Oh behave!
You know?
01:12:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're going to do your kitchen.
01:12:04
Oh behave!
Yeah, let let's fucking ride.
01:12:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You'd be like, let's go.
01:12:05
Oh behave!
We'd have it done in three days. Let's fucking go, baby.
01:12:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you go.
01:12:07
Oh behave!
you know?
01:12:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah Because it would be fun.
01:12:08
Oh behave!
Yeah.
01:12:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now there goes a fun part and it would go faster.
01:12:09
Oh behave!
Yeah, yeah. there's there is There's a reason to then do the thing, which is I get like me and my buddy have a reason to hang in like an activity to do together.
01:12:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:12:19
Oh behave!
You know?
01:12:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:12:20
Oh behave!
Like fuck fishing, fuck like bowling, like we're building the fucking kitchen. You know?
01:12:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That actually sounds pretty fun together.
01:12:27
Oh behave!
Yeah.
01:12:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that.
01:12:27
Oh behave!
Yeah. Hmm.
01:12:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, and then as friends, like you can do these sorts of favors for each other where you're turning it into something fun. So Paul, oh I want to turn to you. So you talked about wanting to lose weight.
01:12:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What feeling are you avoiding with your intention behavior gap? Can I just point out, can I just point out
01:12:50
Oh behave!
arugula on his tongue I think so do I
01:12:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
love Can I just point out that question is coming from an obesity researcher, PhD. Sherry spent her whole career researching weight loss and she's my ex-wife.
01:13:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So she knows me inside and fucking out. And she's like, Paul, what's holding you back from your...
01:13:13
Oh behave!
ah what
01:13:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm just wondering what he's going to say to the audience. I mean, I know the answer. I'm like, how do i answer this?
01:13:26
Oh behave!
Go ahead, Pauly D.
01:13:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh ah the floor is yours gym tan laundry
01:13:28
Oh behave!
What you got, Pauly Shore?
01:13:31
Oh behave!
i feel like I feel like he's he's ah stalling right now.
01:13:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
okay i am i did want to point that i just had a surreal moment where sherry's looking at me and i'm like oh my god a phd researcher in obesity is like staring into my eyes why i can't like figure it out
01:13:35
Oh behave!
He's filibustering.
01:13:46
Oh behave!
why Why can't you put the sandwich down, Paul?
01:13:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And she knows me. All right. So um why that's such a great question. Why can't I? Because there's two things that undermine my achieving this. Okay.
01:14:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The first thing is having fun with friends. I'm very social, I'm a super extrovert, and so many times in a week, I'm with people, like enjoying life, being the extrovert I am, and so much time with friends revolves around food.
01:14:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and And you say, well, can you make better choices? Like you could have the food, but just eat less. Yes, but I'm not thinking about it in those moments. I'm like, it kind of leaves the front of my mind because I'm thinking about the person or a relationship. And then I'm making dumb eating decisions in the moment because I'm not thinking about it consciously. So then Do you think the feeling that you're avoiding is that if I have to be thinking about what I'm going order on this menu and like all this cognitive effort, yeah then it's taking away from, just want to enjoy Friday night.
01:14:50
Oh behave!
Hmm.
01:14:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, yes, 100%. That's it. So there's that. That's one. What are its other? I don't like feeling hungry. That's a big one.
01:15:02
Oh behave!
Hmm.
01:15:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it's uncomfortable. uncomfortable. That's valid.
01:15:06
Oh behave!
Yeah.
01:15:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I hate it. Especially at night around 10 o'clock. It's the witching hour. I hate that feeling of being hungry.
01:15:12
Oh behave!
ah
01:15:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And while that's what I love about the GLP one medications, because it does take away, I don't have a state of like any money in that. I'm just saying like ah from ah in the obesity science.
01:15:23
Oh behave!
That's what it suppresses?
01:15:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Like, so what it does is it's going to help with the appetite regulation.
01:15:25
Oh behave!
Yeah?
01:15:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Cause I think what you're getting at is the number one thing that makes it hard for people to lose weight is it's so uncomfortable to be hungry yeah and have your brain like wanting to eat, wanting to enjoy something. That's kind of your brain sort of firing off. That's uncomfortable. So, I mean, these are all valid.
01:15:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
These are all valid.
01:15:47
Oh behave!
Can, can, okay.
01:15:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, wait, I have a third. i have a third. Oh, there's more. So, it's like the social plans. I don't want to be thinking about it. Disrupting. Number two, I don't like feeling hungry at night. And third is, oh, fuck, I just lost it.
01:16:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I just had it. Is it related to exercise? No. No.
01:16:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ugh. All right, move on.
01:16:08
Oh behave!
OK, well, we'll come back to that.
01:16:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It'll come back. Yeah, go ahead.
01:16:10
Oh behave!
What I wanted to touch on was the feeling of being hungry, because that's interesting.
01:16:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:16:13
Oh behave!
And I understand it's uncomfortable. But um I so everybody's physiology is different, right? um
01:16:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:16:21
Oh behave!
I'm a person that, ah ah from my perspective, thankfully puts on muscle pretty easily. But getting super lean is a real chore.
01:16:32
Oh behave!
And so at two different points in my adult life, I've been like, I'm going to I'm going to get fucking cut and like get a six pack. And it's exhausting. It's fucking exhausting to get a six pack unless you're just like naturally born that way. um And the feeling of being hungry was always a demarcator that like, now this is a fine line because we can get into body dysmorphia and eating disorders very, very quickly. But the feeling of being hungry was, it was it was like a note of, okay, I haven't overeaten.
01:17:07
Oh behave!
And therefore, like I am making progress toward my goal.
01:17:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So there was something kind of rewarding about it was almost like a positive reward with the feeling.
01:17:11
Oh behave!
You know what I mean?
01:17:14
Oh behave!
Yes, and and i'm not I'm not talking about like, I'm starving, right? Like I'm ravenous, but like that feeling of like, ah I could eat, you know? That feeling was like, okay, great. That means that I have, I am under my daily caloric intake or my weekly caloric intake and therefore am making progress.
01:17:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you've associated the negative with actually a a psychological positive.
01:17:33
Oh behave!
Yeah. hu
01:17:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it wasn't so aversive to where it was overriding.
01:17:39
Oh behave!
Yeah, just, it was,
01:17:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because I think for some people, the aversiveness of the intensity of the hunger just sort of like overrides.
01:17:43
Oh behave!
Sure. The intensity is key though, right?
01:17:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah.
01:17:46
Oh behave!
It's like learning how to balance yourself. So you get to the point where you're like, I'm a little peckish and then staying there, you know?
01:17:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah, I have trouble with that.
01:17:57
Oh behave!
He's like, I don't know.
01:17:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Okay, I thought of the third thing that undermines my but intention behavior gap with eating and food is I work from home and I get bored in the middle of the day or I'm like, I'm cogitating over a science thing, like a hard science thing and I can't quite figure it out and I'm thinking and I'm pacing and I'm mindlessly eating.
01:17:58
Oh behave!
I don't know.
01:18:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Because I think it, I don't know. i don't know why I do it. Well, it's helping to relieve the boredom and it might even help you focus a little i didn't even realize I was reaching like nuts and and like, you know I have trail mix or whatever.
01:18:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm like the hands of trail mix while I'm like thinking about a really hard problem. And I just, lay then at and after I'm like, oh my God, I just ate three, four hands of trail mix, which is like, calories, not trivial amount of calories.
01:18:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I did it mindlessly because my head was elsewhere and I'm home and it's, it's nearby and I'm bored.
01:18:53
Oh behave!
Hmm.
01:18:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that's right so that's a feeling you're boreding So, but what's the feeling of, Oh, I'm avoiding boredom. You're trying to, yeah, you're avoiding boredom.
01:19:04
Oh behave!
Yeah.
01:19:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I mean, I think this is a good question to ask yourself when there is the gap is what feeling am I avoiding and not just what I'm avoiding, what feeling because this is as as each person talked about what feeling they were avoiding. You could see it sort of pointed to so some solutions. okay So like these questions can be helpful to to get you to where you want to go. So my second tip would be what I call ridiculously small goals. So if you haven't gotten started, you're having trouble getting started, setting ridiculously small goals, because I think oftentimes when we want to dig into something,
01:19:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The initial goal that we set way too big is super overwhelming. I'll give a ah little story. So back to kind of the weight loss example, I was working with someone around weight loss and this person was really trying to exercise and coming in week after week, I'd say, how did it go?
01:19:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so he had elliptical machine at home. And he wanted to be putting in at least 30 minutes a day on that. And he'd come in week after week and they'd be like, how'd go? And he'd like, I didn't do it at all. And so I was like, all right, I want you to humor me, but your assignment for this week is I want you to do it once, only once.
01:20:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And only for five minutes. And he was like, well, what that's of course I could do it for five minutes once. And I was like, OK, that's fine. Like that's all I want you to do. If you accomplish that in my mind, it's a victory. So he was like, well, that's obvious. I could do that.
01:20:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So anyway, so he comes back the next week and like how to go. He's like, well, I got on and I did my five minutes. And since I was there, i just went 20 minutes.
01:20:35
Oh behave!
Yep.
01:20:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then, you know, I ended up doing it the next day, too.
01:20:38
Oh behave!
Yep.
01:20:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So the barrier was for him, it wasn't. riding is elliptical it was getting started and so the barrier of getting started we reduced that into something that made it very easy to get started but staying going was not a problem in fact he did that voluntarily and so if you can think of what is one small way
01:20:46
Oh behave!
Yeah.
01:20:58
Oh behave!
Mm-hmm.
01:21:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I do that sometimes. Yeah. I'm like, just I'm ah' not going put a lot of pressure to finish the project. I'm just going to go sand that one thing. Yes. And next thing I know, I'm an hour and a half later and I not only sanded, then I did the next two steps because I, it lowered the activation.
01:21:10
Oh behave!
Mm.
01:21:14
Oh behave!
Mm-hmm.
01:21:16
Oh behave!
Yep. You're already there.
01:21:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. It it lowered the activation barrier.
01:21:19
Oh behave!
yeah, yeah. yeah Yeah.
01:21:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Absolutely. It's kind of like, um, have you ever gone to the gym and stood there and turned around and went home. No, like it's hard to get to the gym, but then once you're there, like it's rare that you would leave and be like, screw it
01:21:31
Oh behave!
Right. Right. Right?
01:21:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I came. I didn't really want to be here. Like once you're there, like the chain of it
01:21:38
Oh behave!
Well, that's... That's exactly what I was going to say. The, the sometimes, um, going to the gym, there's a lot going on.
01:21:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:21:47
Oh behave!
Life is busy. You're like, ah, it's fucking, you know, but when I'm in that headspace, I'm always like, just go sit in the sauna for five minutes.
01:21:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:21:55
Oh behave!
You know, you go spend, you do five in the sauna and then ah I'm already here. I might as well go, you know, might as well go squat, you know, just do the big compounds, you know?
01:22:05
Oh behave!
And then like, oops, ah, it was a 40 minute workout.
01:22:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:22:09
Oh behave!
You know?
01:22:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oops. I'm still ripped because my name's Eric.
01:22:11
Oh behave!
yeah ah
01:22:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Paul's still wearing the fat suit. and
01:22:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric's working on a six pack. i andness Yeah,
01:22:20
Oh behave!
I am definitively not anymore.
01:22:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But yeah, so is starting with really, really small goals to reduce that barrier to entry, because once you get there, you're going to go. And even if you don't, you're still kind of building the habit.
01:22:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So even if a guy came back and he's like, I did my five minutes, I'd be like, great, do another five minutes on another day and just would like build from there. Eric got abs. Paul's got flabs.
01:22:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He was dying to say that it came to his head.
01:22:50
Oh behave!
Listen, you got you got a sexy one pack. I've seen it. ah
01:22:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, Cher, what's next? All right. That good. That was a really good one.
01:22:58
Oh behave!
That was good.
01:22:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So structure. So when we have an idea like, oh, I want to build a chest or whatever it is you want to build, you want to come down to a plan that has like a what, when, and where.
01:23:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so like, what am I going to When am I going to do it? And where am I going to do it? know what this is. You're taking them from that vague stage of I want to be a woodworker and forcing them to actually put parameters on it. Like define Tuesdays, 7 p.m., in the workshop. you know and so coming up with, yeah. And I would even go so far as to put it in a calendar, like an appointment. Because the minute it's written down, it's 10 times more likely to happen. Really? Absolutely. If you put something in your calendar, it is far more likely to happen than if it's just in your head.
01:23:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Huh. Yeah. Even if you're not looking at your calendar, the act of doing it is firming that commitment. Huh.
01:23:57
Oh behave!
Interesting.
01:23:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So... right That's the second thing in this show that I'm like, holy shit. Yes, put it in your calendar.
01:24:02
Oh behave!
ah
01:24:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Procrastination is not being lazy. It's ah emotional avoidance. And put it in your calendar. You're 10 times more likely to it.
01:24:09
Oh behave!
I mean, I will say i do very intentionally write a to do list like and break it down by the day at the beginning of every week.
01:24:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, you will.
01:24:17
Oh behave!
and And I do think I've never thought about it in terms of like numbers, how much more likely it is.
01:24:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Same.
01:24:23
Oh behave!
But it's just the type of shit where I'm like, if it's on the list, I will get it done. That's the things that I have to do on that week. And, you know, like if it's not on the list, it doesn't get done.
01:24:35
Oh behave!
That's totally fair.
01:24:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think that's a great way to do good to go about. i do i do one for the week and then I have one for each day and it just kind of keeps going. So love that. Okay. So you guys are giggling.
01:24:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I know why.
01:24:50
Oh behave!
ah Paul's being a little bitch in the counter in the comment section. That's all.
01:24:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He made a comment. Please continue. That's good, too. OK. All right. OK, so the next one is think ahead to anticipate roadblocks.
01:25:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What could come up to get it in your way? ah So if you're like, OK, I got my Tuesday plan and I put it in my calendar. okay so I'm so excited. Don't stop there. Think through what could happen on Tuesday where this could go south.
01:25:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, um my wife might want me to do something with her or i get caught up watching TV or just kind of think realistic things that could get in the way.
01:25:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And what would you do about those? So coming up with a plan of, okay, so if if you planned for your Tuesday of going to play volleyball, we'll say, and Vicky wanted to do something, how would you deal with that?
01:25:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I never thought to do that.
01:25:52
Oh behave!
yes Paul, what'd you do with
01:25:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He's giggling.
01:25:57
Oh behave!
that?
01:26:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric's writing.
01:26:00
Oh behave!
Sherry's never coming back on the podcast.
01:26:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you know. Eric's writing dirty things in the private comments.
01:26:05
Oh behave!
You started it.
01:26:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm trying to ignore them.
01:26:07
Oh behave!
ah
01:26:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm sorry. um yeah Anticipate roadblocks. Anticipating roadblocks. I never thought to do that, honestly. Yes. Play it through in your head so that you have a plan of, you know, okay, if my wife is going to want me to do something with her, then what would you do about that?
01:26:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I could tell her right now. She won't. Oh, well, easy enough.
01:26:28
Oh behave!
Ha ha ha ha
01:26:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well... For those for whom that may be an issue. So having a conversation and running the plan by the wife, or if it's you think that you might get caught up in TV, what could you do to avoid that?
01:26:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or whatever the bro black is. Honestly, actually, what makes lately, ah what what makes my plans go south is our daughter. Like, um she's going to college soon.
01:26:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. And the minute she says she's available to hang out, I throw everything else away.
01:27:02
Oh behave!
um sure sure sure yeah
01:27:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
if i Like, I might have, look, she's going to college in like 20 days. So the minute she says she's available to like hang out, hey, do you want to watch a movie? Like, whatever I had planned to in the shop, oh, fuck it.
01:27:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fuck all.
01:27:13
Oh behave!
yeah that's fair but that's and and that's a temporary blockage right yeah
01:27:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, i you know. but that's important. yeah that's That's important. Yeah, it is. But but I'm cognizant of that one lately because there's been a lot of times in the last six months that she's like, oh, hey, what do you you know?
01:27:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What do you know? And I just drop everything I had planned. What you could do around something like that.
01:27:29
Oh behave!
Sure.
01:27:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
cause i I agree. i No, I don't regret it. I don't regret it. I just. Yeah. well I like reschedule like, you know, I reprioritize it the next day. Well, you could be like, okay, she's going to be away this weekend.
01:27:40
Oh behave!
Yeah.
01:27:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that's my opportunity to like double down.
01:27:44
Oh behave!
Mmm.
01:27:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But like she's around tonight. She wants to watch a movie. like So yeah, you don't have to be so rigid in your plan. But just walking through what would a plan B look like? Or how would deal with this roadblock that would come up? That's good.
01:28:00
Oh behave!
That's fair. Uh, I, so Teddy's been a part of my life for what, eight, eight months, nine months, something like that.
01:28:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. he's been, the yeah, he's a lot of energy.
01:28:09
Oh behave!
Um, he's a lot of energy and, and I am aware that like in, in, as he's grown more comfortable and as he matures, uh, you know, he changes the, the situation changes, but over the last six months or so, um,
01:28:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:28:26
Oh behave!
one of the bigger distractions has been like, how long can he be in the shop taking a nap before he gets restless? Right.
01:28:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:28:34
Oh behave!
And, and so one of the things I have learned is like, sure, driving the 20 minutes to the park across the river and then letting them run for 45 to an hour and then driving 20 minutes to the shop, like that's two hours right there.
01:28:50
Oh behave!
Right.
01:28:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, in the middle your day too.
01:28:51
Oh behave!
But if if i if I take those two hours at the beginning of the day, I've got like an eight-hour block where I can work. Whereas if I try to like skimp him, like go for a short walk and then like let him run around at the park on the way to the shop for like 10, 15 minutes, then I might get like three, four hours and then he starts to get restless and then there's distractions and I got to take him on a walk and yada, yada, yada.
01:29:13
Oh behave!
And it's it's better to like front load
01:29:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see.
01:29:16
Oh behave!
and then have the block of time to get work done because then it's not a start and stop situation. It's not constantly trying to restart the engine.
01:29:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:29:25
Oh behave!
It's just like do the thing at the beginning, like let him get the energy out and then he's game for, for you know, taking a nap for eight hours.
01:29:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's great. So that's that's a perfect example. so wait, Sherry, can you review the solutions you've mentioned so far? Okay, so... asking yourself, what am I avoiding feeling?
01:29:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What feeling am I avoiding? ye We've got our ridiculously small goals. yep We've got our structure, what, when, where, write it down. yep We are anticipating our roadblocks.
01:29:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And making the plan so that they don't, because actually most of the time something gets in the way, you probably could have foreseen it. yeah Obviously, like if lightning strikes your house, you didn't see that coming, but you kind of know like if it's going to be the wife or someone else. Okay. And the next one, and one we kind of already talked about, so I won't spend too much time on, which is pair with something pleasurable, something rewarding. So like,
01:30:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you guys getting together to do something, adding music or a fun podcast. I do this with podcasts a lot. If they're on a podcast, something entertaining like this one, for example. And while I'm doing some unpleasant tasks, then I feel like being really intellectually engaged really helps that task. And I also feel like I'm like learning something or growing. okay So the last one I want to mention is, and this is something that we can borrow from scientists. So when Paul worked in the lab,
01:30:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
One thing I noticed and is they all had a notebook next to them and they would write down what they accomplished that day. So like scientists actually keep a journal.
01:31:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and I was always like, what's he writing down?
01:31:03
Oh behave!
hmm
01:31:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, they're writing down what they accomplished that day. So by tracking your progress, keeping a record of it, it actually becomes very reinforcing because then you're looking back at it of like, oh, wow, what I've accomplished, all the steps that I took.
01:31:16
Oh behave!
hmm hmm
01:31:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How does that help the intention behavior gap though? Like explain. Well, because when you're making progress, it's going kind of reinforce further progress. All right. You feel like I want to add another page to my journal. You see the progression so you feel better about yourself. Yeah. And continue that progression. And I would say this one is a good one for getting from action to maintenance. So we talked about those five stages. So it's if you're in action, you're like the ball is rolling and and you really want this to become a habit. This is a lifestyle. It's something I want to keep doing. Yeah.
01:31:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that's where tracking progress would be really helpful ah to two to to relate to woodworking action would be like i've started building woodworking things i've made one two three projects you know i've started maintenance eric you're in maintenance i'm in maintenance like we've woodworked for 20 years that's the maintenance phase just to relate it to everyone right so yeah i'll go ahead
01:32:09
Oh behave!
So, well, so the would that like, I'm trying to think of folks toward the beginning, what would be the reinforcement? Is it making smaller objects, like just completion of projects, smaller objects that are there, they're done, you photograph them, you know that they're documented, you remember being able to work on them, and then you can compile more and more smaller objects.
01:32:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:32:33
Oh behave!
And then that way, over time, the more complex objects don't feel as daunting because you've developed skill.
01:32:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, absolutely.
01:32:40
Oh behave!
Because I think that's that's one of the things that happens early on is like you made a box and now I'm going to make whatever a fucking I'm going to build my whole kitchen. Right. Like going to make a chest of drawers.
01:32:51
Oh behave!
I'm going to make X, Y and Z. And it's like or or just make another fucking box like make five, so five, six boxes before you move on to like the next project, you know, compile successes.
01:33:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And if you're kind of journaling or tracking your progress, you can also make notes to yourself about things that you're learning along the way that you can then look back to. So like on my notebook where I have all my goals, they were like what my to do list, what I want to accomplish, then i have another page where I kind of write notes to myself. And i'll I will tell you, well like, I'll look back to that and be like, what was that? Because don't know about you, but like I have a great thought as I've been working through a task.
01:33:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that three weeks from now, it's like gone forever. But then so then I i look back and like, yes, that's what I wanted to remind myself of.
01:33:32
Oh behave!
Hmm. Hmm.
01:33:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it actually can help your learning process, too, because you're writing down and it can make you feel more productive as well, because did you ever work on something and it feels like visibly there was very little progress, but you actually did like 20 steps and you're like, I want credit for that.
01:33:52
Oh behave!
This is the to-do list, man. The to-do list of like just knocking shit off. And it's all of the mundane things of like, I will literally start every day with like, okay, email, gym, whatever, fucking make this phone call, take Teddy the park.
01:33:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
01:34:09
Oh behave!
By the time I get to work, I've already knocked four things off my to-do list. And it feels like a much more productive day rather than the feeling of like, well, I didn't actually get to work until like 1130.
01:34:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
01:34:20
Oh behave!
Like I'm a fuck up.
01:34:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah.
01:34:21
Oh behave!
You know, like it's like, no, no, no. I started my day at 730 and I got a whole bunch of shit done.
01:34:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you feel good.
01:34:27
Oh behave!
I'm just starting the professional portion of it. You know?
01:34:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You feel good. Yeah.
01:34:31
Oh behave!
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:34:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like why an Apple watch and a Fitbit is so re reinforcing. Like it's, it's tracking your step. So you can see every little step of the way. And then you look at the total and you're like, yeah, I did something.
01:34:41
Oh behave!
Hmm.
01:34:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. I did something similar with my weight at some points. I had a, i printed out a graph. like time ah days on the X and like weight on the Y. And every day i would weigh myself and with a you know pencil, like put and to see the trajectory was very motivating.
01:34:56
Oh behave!
hmm yeah yeah yeah
01:35:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I will say, in fact, I should probably print another one out tonight.
01:35:00
Oh behave!
yeah
01:35:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah And there there's actually a lot of behavioral science to that evidence for not just tracking, but the fact that you turned it into a trajectory was feedback. Yeah. So you had visual feedback of how you're doing over time. But that means I got to get on the scale tonight.
01:35:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that was it I don't want to know. what feeling are you avoiding?
01:35:26
Oh behave!
ah
01:35:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The feeling of disappointment and frustration.
01:35:28
Oh behave!
ah
01:35:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fair enough. good. All right. sure That was amazing. Very good. Thank you so much. Absolutely.
01:35:35
Oh behave!
Yeah, thank you, Sherry.
01:35:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know what? this whole This is what I love about doing this podcast. I know I've said this before. This started with me being like, hmm. Woodworking preparers. They buy the stuff.
01:35:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They make the shop. They build shop furniture. I'd like to kick them you know like kick them into the next stage of making what they want. them like That's how this thought started. I pitch it to Cher.
01:36:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm like, what do you think of this? And she's like, oh, well.
01:36:04
Oh behave!
She's like, actually.
01:36:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Intention behavior. Actually, this is a lot bigger than you think, little poly boy. And like it it blossoms into this whole huge thing.
01:36:12
Oh behave!
ah
01:36:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't think I'll ever see the intention behavior gap the same again. Yeah. Well, and I think it also makes takes away the kind of self-criticism.
01:36:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
when you feel like you're not really moving forward on your goals, that does feel bad. And then people ask you about them and you don't really have much more to say. Like, so understanding why that's happening, I think is absolutely essential to breaking through it.
01:36:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And there are all these different reasons. And so hopefully one of these reasons resonated. That was so good. Really, that was really good.
01:36:49
Oh behave!
Oh yeah, yeah.
01:36:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you also had a like a statement you want to make about this is not about condemnation earlier.
01:36:50
Oh behave!
now
01:36:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah Well, yeah, I mean, i whenever we kind of talk about whether it was like personality or ADHD or attention behavior gap, that we ah if you feel this way, i yeah i don't want people to kind of feel bad about themselves, but to have compassion and that it's just a matter of understanding. Kind of back to our original, first one of the first things I said, which is that when we don't understand behavior, we criticize and the biggest target of our criticism is ourselves. But if you understand behavior and why you're doing something that you're doing, it's going to and these questions that we ask, like, what is the feeling you're avoiding?
01:37:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Will lead you to the answers and to the breakthroughs that you want, because there's no there's no we we achieve nothing by just being like, I'm lazy. I'm a procrastinator. Like, what is that? That's not an explanation. That's just sort of a label.
01:37:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then the label is like the anti-manifesting, right? Like you're. Oh, we're going to end it
01:37:56
Oh behave!
Woo! That's a whole other episode right there.
01:37:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're going to, we're going to end it on that.
01:37:58
Oh behave!
That's the after show.
01:38:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Cher. That was so beautifully said. Thank you so much for your help on this episode.
01:38:07
Oh behave!
Yeah, thank you, Sherry. That was great. Okay,
01:38:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Awesome. All right. We'll see in the after show kids. Yeah.
01:38:12
Oh behave!
bye!
01:38:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye.