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00:00:01
With Susie Ford
59 Plays4 years ago
When we hear from those with degrees in theology and positions in ministry, it can be tempting to feel inadequate or guilty about our own efforts in evangelism. So how can we make efforts at sharing the gospel without falling into a performance-driven mindset?
Susie Ford works in ministry and studies theology part time with Highland Theological College. She is a member of the Passion for Evangelism community which mentors and encourages women in public proclamation of the gospel, and loves discussing faith issues with those exploring Christianity. In her free time Susie can always be found with people, whether drinking coffee, baking or walking.
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Transcript
Introduction and Co-Host Banter
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. My name is Christie, and as ever, I'm joined by the effervescence, Andy Bannister. Andy, hello. Hello, indeed, Christie. I'm not sure effervescent is quite the word for the middle of the afternoon when I'm recording this, but are caffeinated, might be. Anyway, good to be with you again today.
00:00:29
Speaker
I'm really glad
Introducing Susie Ford and Her Roles
00:00:30
Speaker
that you are. Coffee goes such a long way. But you actually happen to be situated nearly kind of practically in the same city as our guest today, Susie Ford. Susie, hello. Hello. It's lovely to be with you. I'm really glad that you are with us. Welcome. You are based in North East Fife. I mean, are you actually in Dundee? Are you in the same city as Andy?
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm not technically know there is a little amount of water between us. OK, that's my bad, because I know that you're up to an awful lot in your time, aren't you, Susie? You are the regional worker for Scripture Union, your ministry associate for Grace Church Dundee, you're a mum to teenagers.
00:01:09
Speaker
You bake, you do all sorts of things. And it sounds to me like you've just got this amazing and incredible stuff going on. It sounds like you have loads of opportunities for evangelism and for conversations and generating relationships with those whom that you talk with.
Balancing Ministry Jobs and Education
00:01:29
Speaker
Can you tell us just a little bit about that? How do you find that, knowing that you have all these amazing opportunities? What's life like for you?
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I think it is fair to say I probably am cramming quite a bit into my life alongside those things. I'm also doing a part-time theology degree with Highland Theological College. And yeah, I guess I feel doing two part-time jobs in ministry and studying that there would definitely be
00:01:52
Speaker
a desire and yeah to be involved in evangelism and of course I want to be sharing all this learning that I'm having about Jesus and he is my favorite subject to speak about you know it's great to talk about Jesus particularly with those people who don't know him and have wonderful questions that we want to explore but I guess the reality is probably that I don't have quite as many opportunities as you were suggesting Kristy it's yeah it's maybe just not quite
00:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, so open, as I might hope.
Time Pressures and Guilt in Evangelism
00:02:24
Speaker
And what way is that, Susie? Well, with friends, there's just not so much time for friends, you know, as you're trying to juggle a couple of jobs and studying and teenagers are taking up just a little bit more time than before. So certainly the opportunities as well to run into friends just naturally, of course, at the moment, we're not doing so much of that anyway, but before.
00:02:47
Speaker
When you've got younger children, you're standing at the school gates at 3pm, you do naturally every day run into people and you have good conversations and good opportunities just to say, oh, let's have a coffee or a walk and develop relationships. Whereas when that part of life sort of moved on, there's maybe less opportunity for keeping up with those friends and you're moving into a different phase of life.
00:03:07
Speaker
And it would be nice to be able to have hobbies and meet new people that way and be going off to do some sort of sport or something, but I haven't so much found the time for that. So I guess, yeah, there's less opportunities in that regard. And then with church work, we are struggling, aren't we? I think in general, we're all struggling to find time.
00:03:28
Speaker
to be making friends and to be sharing the gospel. So we maybe are not bringing so many people into our churches that don't know Jesus as we might like to be as well. It's interesting, kind of Susie, you mentioned the kind of time pressures there. I've wondered for a long time actually whether sort of time pressure and particularly time pressure is related to season of life, you know, the parenting stage that you're in now. Is that something we don't talk perhaps enough about as churches? Because I often, I think I come across
00:03:56
Speaker
Christians who can sometimes even feel almost guilty that they're not doing more in terms of evangelism but then you look at what their schedule is like with the job and the kids and so forth but actually to go there's just not the there's just not the spare capacity. How as churches can we perhaps better help people have up to more realistic expectation of what they can do with the time they have and the season of life they're in?
00:04:18
Speaker
Yeah, I do think you're right. I think there can be a lot of really unhelpful guilt attached to our evangelism. And I was actually last night speaking with Dundee CU as they prepare for their events week in a couple of weeks and chose the title Why It's Okay to Patch Events Week.
00:04:34
Speaker
because actually I think it's really important for us to consider our motivations about why we would want to share Jesus with our friends. And if it is out of guilt, I think then that can lead to actually some really twisted kind of efforts of evangelism. It's not really out of a desire for them to know Jesus because I guess if we're feeling guilty then our picture of God is of someone who
00:04:59
Speaker
demands that we bring people to know Him. But it's not actually maybe someone who loves us and understands where we're at in this season of our life and maybe the difficulties that we're having. There's not that sort of sense of a loving God. So who is it that we're trying to bring these people to? And if it is that sort of nasty taskmaster God who's like, I demand this many people from you every month, I think that's not helpful at all. And we're not bringing people to know the Jesus that we want to and the God of the Bible.
00:05:28
Speaker
Just one other question on that series. You were talking there, it really intrigued me that you've hit upon quite a fascinating idea that I think we're worth exploring more, which is actually the idea that the way that you do evangelism actually says a lot about the God that you believe in. I mean, it occurred to me, of course, if you're doing evangelism out of guilt,
00:05:47
Speaker
That doesn't just say something about God, but also in a sense, if you're not careful, that's made evangelism all about you, right? You're now not doing evangelism because Jesus is the best news ever. You're doing evangelism because it's the only way to deal with this sort of guilt trip thing you've got going on. And it's totally messed up if that's the motivation. So getting that motivation right for evangelism is crucial, right?
From Rule-Based to Loving God Perspective
00:06:08
Speaker
Absolutely. It is absolutely right. And then, yeah, if you'll allow me, I'll share a little bit of how that's kind of gone for me throughout my life. So I started out, I don't come from a Christian background, started coming to faith kind of around uni.
00:06:25
Speaker
So I'd been given my Gideon Bible in school, big shout out to the Gideons, because it really does work, you put the word of the Lord in people's hands and it speaks, and the Lord speaks through his word. So I was really fascinated with this God that I was reading about and went on into uni and then met Christians, you know, met this girl who lived next door to me. And I think I kind of thought, oh, Christians are these moral people, they're quite judgy, and she just completely wasn't like that at all.
00:06:54
Speaker
It was really fascinating, very open about her faith. So anyway, through this I came to faith, but I had no sort of Bible knowledge or Bible background family. So how do you start walking?
00:07:04
Speaker
the Christian life. I do start following Jesus. And it was just really copying people and listening to what they're saying and doing what they're saying. And I picked up quite quickly this very rules-based system of like, all of the CU says, there's a meeting at this time and it's important. Well, you better go. That's how God loves you. And they also had this kind of mysterious thing called a quiet time. Couldn't quite get my head round. It's very quiet. And it seemed to happen in the morning, which I wasn't very good at. But if you did it in the evening and you fell asleep, that was a big no-no, because God was really offended.
00:07:35
Speaker
So I got into this kind of rules-based way, and then evangelism was about, yeah, it's just another rule. You just have to do it. You know, you're trying to really earn God's approval. And so that made that evangelism really, well, do you know, who was I actually trying to, why was it good news? I mean, it wasn't really good news. It didn't feel like good news, but it was just something that you had to do. So then it becomes about, it's very formulaic. I must get them in the door to this event to hear about Jesus, to receive Jesus, and they get their get out of hell free card in their back pocket and done tick.
00:08:03
Speaker
It's not actually about a love for the person or a desire to be in their company or actually thinking that, yeah, that they're going to enjoy knowing Jesus. So yeah, I think motivation is really, really important.
00:08:15
Speaker
Yeah, there's a lot that you said there that I personally resonate with too there, Susie, just thinking particularly what it looks like as a young Christian. It's so much easier, isn't it, to think, okay, this is what we do and this is what we don't do. And how did things change for you as you kind of, you're able to now reflect on that as quite a legalistic way of viewing your Christian life and evangelism? What was it that shifted for you and kind of changed your attitude
00:08:43
Speaker
and motivation when it came to sharing the gospel. Essentially it was a different God. I don't quite know where to place my salvation now and I've just left that with Jesus because I think it's just unhelpful for me to obsess about that. But yeah, I came to realise that this God that I was trying to do all these things for
00:09:02
Speaker
was not actually the God of the Bible. I met a lady who came to church who just was very different. I was like, oh, she's not like these other people. This is weird. What's going on here? And just as we explored more things, I just started to realise, well, the God that I've managed to get into my head here somehow
00:09:21
Speaker
It's just not the same God. This is, you know, a picture of this really mean, nasty, demanding being. So yeah, it's a complete transformation of my whole life, realizing that. It just changes absolutely everything, the God that you know, doesn't it?
00:09:41
Speaker
And especially now just looking at all the things that you are involved in. I mean, I imagine people are probably quite surprised to have heard you say earlier on that actually you don't have that many opportunities. And if I was listening, I'd be thinking, oh, gosh, well, if she doesn't and she's involved in all these different areas of ministry, then what hope do I have? What would you say? What would you say to those people who might be thinking that right now? I mean, how do you get involved? What should we do?
Challenges of Evangelizing in Ministry Circles
00:10:07
Speaker
I mean,
00:10:08
Speaker
How do you kind of join together those dots of changing and shifting that kind of behavioral attitude to seeing that this is a different God and it's actually His goodness that propels us and drives us out. So what does that look like for you with limited opportunities? How do you make most of it? OK, so I think that's two kind of slightly different questions is how they've come into my head. And the first one would be to say, well, how come I don't have all these opportunities and how will other people have them? Well, actually, I think one of the problems
00:10:34
Speaker
in terms of having opportunities to share Jesus. If you work in ministry, because I'm not sitting, you know, obviously none of us are sitting in desk next to people, but I'm not rubbing shoulders with, well, what I call ordinary people, having come to faith, not from a Christian background, every day. So I do spend a lot of time with Christians, which is one barrier to actually being able to share Jesus. And that's something that as I look to graduating things, I'll be wanting to try and redress that.
00:11:02
Speaker
and just have more time to spend with people who don't know anything about Jesus because it's just natural, isn't it? It just is how you live your life, the fact that they're observing it. It's the things that you're chatting about. It's, yeah, all these ways in which you can share Him. And then to go on to the other question is how do I then with limited time find ways to share Him? I'll be perfectly honest, I just steal ideas from other people.
00:11:28
Speaker
I really do enjoy, I genuinely enjoy just listening to evangelists speaking and I think actually it's a wonderful thing to do for our faith. Do you know if your faith is feeling tired or dry in any way, why would you not listen to an evangelist? Because these are people who are incredible about communicating how beautiful Jesus is and yeah.
00:11:48
Speaker
It's just so heartwarming to be able to listen to an evangelist. So I do listen to a lot of this kind of stuff. And so both in terms of listening to things about motivation and character and all those things, but also then listening to people talking about the practical things that they've done. And just this week I was listening to a Passion for Evangelism event where somebody was talking about jars of joy. That's an idea that they've had.
00:12:14
Speaker
And so I've ordered some jars and my plan is to just put some things in them for young people around my daughter's age who they should have been doing exams. The schoolwork is unbelievably stressful. They're just, everybody's like up to hydro and I will just put in some nice things for them and just a little note and it's really starting. I'm not, excuse me, giving them a gospel or anything at this stage. It's just that initial step is where I'm going to be starting with that.
00:12:43
Speaker
Do you know, it's funny, I'm like you, Susie, I think all of my good ideas I've stolen from others, so I've just made a note of jars of joy. But you know, what I like about that too is also it doesn't need to be, sometimes I think we do over-complicate things, but you know, if your gift is hospitality and generosity to others, then use it. I mean, it's been interesting that, it's funny before, when I logged on before we pressed record on the show, you folks were talking about baking.
00:13:11
Speaker
But actually, there is a baking link here because one of the one of the evangelism sort of she wouldn't call it evangelism techniques. One of the things my wife has been very good at over the last few months is she will just randomly bake cakes and deliver them to neighbors and just say, you know, hey, we're all feeling a bit like have a chocolate cake. And it's only good relationship. Now, we know right now in our case, because Covid, we can't
00:13:31
Speaker
Leverage those but we're already thinking things like, you know, we'll come the summer when we're out of the pandemic We can probably try and do like a barbecue once a month or something and and bring some, you know, bite folks around and sort of see what happens It's pretty low-key deliver a chocolate cake and then you know commit so maybe
00:13:47
Speaker
throw something on the barbie, you know, in July or August. But it's great, and sometimes it doesn't need to be complicated. I do wonder whether sometimes we've overcomplicated evangelism, but we think, you know, unless we've got some clever technique mastered, that it's not going to work. So I love the idea of stealing the best ideas. I love the idea of jars of joy.
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're right. I think it can become over complicated. And I think that's going back to what we discussed before. It is, do we believe in a God who absolutely adores us, who delights in us, who we are entering into partnership with as we seek to share the good news of Jesus?
00:14:23
Speaker
So there's no sense in which he's sitting there going, oh that's not a very good attempt is it? Do you know, quite the opposite. Instead it's like we're so secure in his love, we are free to try stuff, we're free to try creative new ideas, free to give stuff a go. It might not work at all but it's sharing his love and that's it as well isn't it? When we share a chocolate cake it doesn't need to come with a massive big long
00:14:47
Speaker
like, oh and I'm sharing this because I want you to know the love of Jesus and you know it can just be a gesture of that God loves and so we love and that speaks to people. Yeah somebody once said, I forget who this was, I always remember quotes and I remember who said them, but somebody once said what you win them with, you win them too and I do wonder whether
00:15:07
Speaker
back to where we said at the start, that if we have this model of a God who's got us on a kind of celestial hamster wheel working ourselves to death to sort of service this particular guilt trip model of evangelism, people are going to see that. And we're either not careful going to just make people like ourselves or people are going to look at it and go, man, you talk about peace and joy and one whose yoke is easy. But man, you look stressed out. I'm just not sure that's an attractive vision of Jesus.
00:15:34
Speaker
I realise that wasn't a question, by the way. That was more of a statement.
Opportunities in Lockdown and Creative Evangelism
00:15:38
Speaker
Susan, before we started recording, you were telling us about these two women that you came back into contact with during the pandemic. I mean, you mentioned jars of joy, but could you tell us a little bit about them? What other opportunities have you had to engage others with Jesus during this very difficult time? Yeah, I think God is just unbelievably gracious. He is so good to us, and I think
00:16:05
Speaker
certainly as I look through my life and the older I get, there's just more regret and more missed opportunities and more like, oh, I didn't do that. And yet God is just so, so gracious. So yes, I was just shared with Christie before we started, just how I had fallen out of contact with people who were really good friends and who don't yet know Jesus, but who just love spending time with, you know, really nice women.
00:16:29
Speaker
And over the course of lockdown, through just being outside a little bit more, I ran bangs back. Well, not bangs back. I was two metres apart, but maybe quite clear about that. But I ran into them and was able to then pick up the friendship again and get chatting again. And sometimes, yeah, it's not helpful for us to just get stuck in guilt and just think we're because the Lord provides new opportunities is so good for us. And then one of the other things I was involved in snitched this idea as well. Fabulous idea.
00:16:58
Speaker
Many people did it. It was a sort of form of nativity trail over the Christmas period. So obviously everybody's stuck, not able to do much. The only thing you can do is go out for a walk. All the kids' stuff. I mean, normally it's completely frenetic if you've got a small child at Christmas. So it's like party and service and dress up for this on Sunday and do this, this, this, and then nothing for them. So with a bunch of friends just in my local area, we got together and we decided, OK, we're all going to decorate a window.
00:17:26
Speaker
in a different way with something that's got fairy lights or some sort of light in it anyway. And that's what we did and set up a trail. And then people could come round, follow the map. And my own particular window, I decided to go for a Harry Potter theme because we could have Lumos with the light and we just had all that kind of tat in the house that we could play in a window.
00:17:49
Speaker
And alongside, you know, a quote from Dumbledore about darkness and light, we had Jesus talking about how Jesus is the light. And then people were collecting letters in each window to make the sentence, Jesus is the light of the world, and getting a little goodie back at the end of it with a little flyer that they could then go on and read some more if they wanted to. So just quite a simple thing to set up. And I don't know if that's reached many people, but I know that it's OK because God will use it as he chooses to use it.
00:18:19
Speaker
I thought there's so many things we could talk about there. I love the, there's a whole sub discussion there on how you use kind of popular culture, like Harry Potter and other things in evangelism. And actually, it's interesting, I heard a variation on that example, Susie, one of some of the churches that I know, we're encouraging people over Christmas to do the window decoration thing. And then they gave them a little QR code that they put in the window as well. And so people like the window, we're always getting our phones out and scanning the QR codes. And it would take you to a really good kind of video resource. So I love the window idea.
00:18:49
Speaker
One last question, because we're coming to the top of the show, and it's a very simple one, but I think it really helped people. You talked a lot about, you know, borrowing ideas from others, finding good ideas and adapting them, and I love the creativity there. But of course, you know, you're plugged into things, you know where to find those things. For someone listening to this, who's like, you know,
00:19:06
Speaker
There's some great ideas there, and I love the idea of using other ideas. How do you find those ideas? Where do you go? Where are some of your go-to places? One of the things we love doing at Solace is directing people to great resources out there. I mean, if there's any particular places you want to name, just name them. But folks listening to this, where would you recommend they perhaps take a look to go hunting for those great ideas they can either just take or adapt for themselves?
Evangelism Resources and Inspirations
00:19:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:29
Speaker
Well, I'm part of quite a vibrant community of female evangelists. It's called Passion for Evangelism. We're on Facebook there. And that is an absolute minefield of incredible ideas. Just cannot believe the level of creativity and the fun things and just stepping out of the ordinary things that people are generating from there. Really so, so great ideas coming from there. So I would direct women to that, certainly. And then in terms of more of the kind of less maybe practical, like creative ideas, but more
00:19:59
Speaker
the heart stuff and the motivation and just, yeah, allowing Jesus to win you again in a fresh. I do like to listen to a lot of what comes out of Speak Life, some really positive, great contributions there. I was listening to Christie herself just the other night using a fire rash of long words. Oh no, don't say that. I hope it helps you fall asleep.
00:20:23
Speaker
Susie, it's been an absolute pleasure and delight talking to you. Thanks for your honesty. Thanks for being so down to earth. And thanks for just so much practical wisdom in there. So thanks for joining us on the show. Thank you for having me. It's been lovely. And Christy and I will be back in two weeks time with another guest and a fresh episode of Pep Talk. So to all of you, it's home wherever you are. Thanks for listening. And we'll catch you again soon. Bye for now.