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S3E12: The Minority Student Program, with Assistant Dean Clifford Dawkins
19 Plays2 years ago
Interim Co-Dean Rose Cuison-Villazor is joined by Clifford Dawkins RLAW’15, Assistant Dean and Director of the Minority Student Program. Dean Dawkins shares his experience as a minority through high school, college, grad school, and law school, and he discusses the importance of programs like MSP.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally-known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Production Manager: Margaret McCarthy
Series Producer: Nate Nakao
Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction to Cliff and Rose
00:00:08
Speaker
Hi, my name is Rose Cuizan Villazor. I am the interim co-dean of Rutgers Law School in Newark, and this is the power of attorney. Joining me today is Cliff Dawkins, who is the assistant dean of the minority student program here at Rutgers Law School in Newark. Hi, Cliff. Hi, Rose.
00:00:30
Speaker
Thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. Well, we like to start this podcast by talking about your background. And so here's the question. Tell me your origin story.
00:00:43
Speaker
OK. That's a tough question. I like to say I'm a pretty simple guy, but the story is kind of complex.
Cliff's Early Life and Challenges
00:00:53
Speaker
The short event is, as a kid, I kind of bounced between the United States and Jamaica, where my family is originally from. And so it made for an interesting
00:01:08
Speaker
upbringing because my worldview was shaped by that experience, right? So to kind of get more into the weeds on that, my mother came to the States around the time that I was born, so it's 1987. I'm dating myself, yes. And- I'm older than that just so you know, and I won't date myself.
00:01:33
Speaker
Fair enough. So at the time that that happened, it was kind of a common practice to send your kids back to live with your parents as you get yourself established. And that was my experience. So I lived with my grandmother who, by the way, her name is Rose.
00:01:52
Speaker
until I was about three years old. And then my mother came back and brought us, my older brother and I, to the States. A short time thereafter, unfortunately, we lost her to an accident.
00:02:10
Speaker
That kind of you know, my sister was born just before that I mean that kind of had a spiral a bit My younger sister and I went back to Jamaica and grew up there for some time and then eventually we made our way back to United States and Some things happened that ultimately landed us in the foster care system
00:02:38
Speaker
So we spent, that was actually the first time my sister and I were split. She was taken in by a family and I was in kind of the foster care system for some time with different families until a family took me in.
00:02:58
Speaker
We stayed in touch, of course, me and my little sister, I'm obsessed with her. That's kind of my best friend for life before we had hashtags, right? That's my BFFL. And ultimately, we made our way back to together, her family took us in. And that's where I stayed until I eventually was court emancipated.
00:03:26
Speaker
Got an apartment and worked from 10 p.m. To 4 a.m. in a bakery Paid for my college applications for rent, etc, etc And and made my way to college. So I know I skipped quite a lot in there But but yeah, that's the short of it
00:03:49
Speaker
Thank you for sharing your story.
Family and Immigrant Perspectives
00:03:54
Speaker
You've raised a lot of issues that I'd love to, if it's okay. Absolutely. I'd like to be able to explore because I think your life story has some themes that relate to many of our students. Absolutely.
00:04:11
Speaker
understand what you meant by being raised by family members who are not your parents. It's one of the immigrant stories that I have that I'm familiar with, with aunts and uncles raising. My brothers and I, while my parents were away in another country to make money and be able to support us. So I hear that and that's an important part of who you are, right? Being able to, part of the migration story of
00:04:40
Speaker
connecting with family members. It sounds like you have a broader understanding of family too, family connections.
00:04:48
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. My sister and I joke and talk about it in this way. We say, folks used to say to us a lot, blood is thicker than water. And we will respond, but water keeps us alive. Yeah. No, that's true. And then when you went through the foster care system, then there are different times also of making connections and having chosen family, families choosing you. And so there's a lot there that I
00:05:18
Speaker
I think shows resilience, vulnerability that shaped who you are as a person. And I feel that I'm getting to know you better just now and understand, OK, so that's, you know, I see why you're, you know, as the current dean of the minority student program, you bring to the table this life experience that in my view connects well with our students.
00:05:45
Speaker
So I'd like to explore that further, but before we get there, if it's okay, I want to kind of continue exploring this background story. You then said that you went to, you worked in a bakery. So when did you sleep then?
00:06:03
Speaker
10 p.m. To 4 a.m. In the morning. Yes. Yes. And this was so so this is high school. Okay. Yeah, I was gonna say so this was in high school Yeah, and you know it high school was We kind of what you see in movies that was kind of my experience, right? So I played three sports I was the team captain of the three sports football wrestling and track
00:06:27
Speaker
Oh my goodness. The student government president did Special Olympics, Key Club, all that kind of stuff. And then worked. And really, I think what drove a lot of that was a sense of
00:06:43
Speaker
a sense of feeling like I was it's this is all kind of borrowed time right that's that's just how I felt about it um and I would work really hard to find a way kind of where I grew up in one of those majority minority communities um and it was a very immigrant community uh Dover New Jersey you gotta shout them out all right all right Dover New Jersey yes um and
00:07:07
Speaker
In that community, there's a sense of deep pride in our diversity, in the celebration that we come from very different countries and very different backgrounds, but have a very common goal of wanting to achieve the American dream. And so that kind of makes you...
00:07:26
Speaker
dislike your environment enough to want to get out, but love it enough to want to come back home and give back, right? And in high school was that for me, so I'd spent a lot of my time trying to build community, trying to navigate the different kind of cultural enclaves that happened naturally when you're in such a diverse community.
00:07:50
Speaker
and really trying to bring positive energy to our space, right? Because we're nestled in a pretty affluent county, right, to be a majority-minority community. And so that creates all kinds of
00:08:08
Speaker
dichotomies, relationships, tensions sometimes. But it taught me also how to be diplomatic, how to see from the other person's perspective, how to give respect and nuance to the lived experiences of folks who are from different backgrounds.
00:08:30
Speaker
And I think that was a great benefit to me in navigating high school itself that that process itself and then making my way to to College, but I will say Rose I got into a lot of trouble I got good grades always Which is a blessing But
00:08:53
Speaker
I'll put it this way, I knew every principal from junior high all the way through high school because that was my second homeroom. Well, you've done well for yourself.
00:09:09
Speaker
I appreciate it. All the work that you did in high school and working in the middle of the night and being involved in those different sports and other organizations, tell me about college.
Education and Culture Shock
00:09:23
Speaker
You went to Cornell after high school. What was it like at Cornell for you?
00:09:28
Speaker
very different. The culture shock I think is the best way to kind of describe that early experience, but then I totally fell in love. I was one of those kids that folks probably thought to themselves,
00:09:43
Speaker
Cornell, this guy, right? And yeah, I had the experience of actually being told that you're probably not going to get into a school like that. And applied by hand, hammer and chisel, right? I wrote out my application, mailed it, sealed the envelope, right? Now you're really dating yourself. I know, right? Because these days, it's all by email. Right, right. I went old Pony Express on this one.
00:10:13
Speaker
and ultimately got the nod. I went up for an interview in advance. I was so fortunate to have folks around me that drove me up so that I could have that interview. And I think that ultimately is what got me into the institution.
00:10:32
Speaker
And then I got there, and my focus was, okay, I want to study business, undergrad. Organizational management communications and law was my concentration, and my monitor was in Africana Studies. And I knew that I wanted to go to school to learn business so that I could bring more economic opportunities back home.
00:10:56
Speaker
That was my idea, in part informed by the time that I spent with the Urban League's Youth Development Program, which, you know, it's an economic justice outfit, right? That's what they do. And they well indoctrinated me.
00:11:12
Speaker
So I got to Cornell and I kind of just hit the ground running. I got involved early. My brother at the time had given me sage advice and he said, and by the way, Rutgers was at the top of my list for undergrad. But nobody said to me, you're gonna work hard for the next four years, probably harder than if you stay home and go to school.
00:11:38
Speaker
But you're gonna set yourself up for the best rest of life, right? So sacrifice a little bit now so that you'll have a better go later on. And it stuck with me and that's how I ended up at Cornell.
00:11:52
Speaker
All right, so continuing on then so Cornell then after that you weren't done. No. You know you said I'm just gonna keep going. Yes. So what'd you do next? So after Cornell I started to recognize in the work that it was kind of just
Leadership and Community Service
00:12:12
Speaker
We were granular in terms of being able to make impact, one business at a time, one client at a time. But I wanted to make broader impact, so I started looking at policy school and ended up applying and getting accepted to Rutgers Edward J. Blaustein School for Planning and Public Policy. Gotta shout them out too.
00:12:33
Speaker
And at the Blaustein School, it was really a familial environment, you know, for me. I had phenomenal professors, you know, Professor Coleman, Professor Jaffe, Linda Samado, just phenomenal professors that
00:12:52
Speaker
kind of invested in me, right? Professor Rogers, I would be remiss, right? And through their investment and through the Eagleton Fellowship, I kind of started thinking more deeply about what's next and being the glutton for punishment than I am. Law school kind of came into view
00:13:19
Speaker
I think a good mutual friend of ours, Guillermo or Tillis was he was in at the law school at the time. It was the SBA president. And we were in Eagleton together, him and another gentleman, Andrew Kunka. And they kind of pulled me aside and said, hey, I know you're thinking about law school. I must have said it at some point. And and they said, we really want you to consider, you know, keeping it in the Rutgers family. And and they were the ones who actually introduced me to the minority student program.
00:13:47
Speaker
That's so great. I appreciate the theme of family here, again, that stems from when you were a young age. So now it's the Rutgers family from Eagleton and then bringing you to the law school through the minority student program. Absolutely. And now you're back. You're here as the Dean. Let's talk about what it was like for you to be here. So just similar to,
00:14:14
Speaker
when you were in high school. You were a star student at Rutgers Law School. You were the SBA president. You were the commencement speaker at graduation. Those are two important achievements. So much work goes behind the scenes in being the SBA president, in addressing questions of curriculum,
00:14:35
Speaker
student concerns, and bringing those issues to the faculty, to the administration. There's a lot of faith put into the role of the SBA president. And I mean that now as an administrator. I've worked closely with SBA presidents. It's a really important role. And so I thank you for doing that work. What was it like for you to be at Rutgers Law School as a student?
00:15:00
Speaker
I loved it. Rucker's law school happened at a time in my life where there were just so many milestones. Just top of mind, my son was born too well while I was serving as SBA president.
00:15:15
Speaker
Right. And if it weren't for the kind of love and positivity that was happening in the community at that time, I don't know that I would survive that moment. That was that's a lot. Right. Law school in the newborn. And my better half was also in grad school at the time. But we just had great supports in faculty, staff and administrators. And my peers were very supportive. We accomplished a lot. The SBA president thing was
00:15:44
Speaker
Contentious, I'll say that. I won that as a 1L, which is rare, right? And certainly- When did you run? So you came in in the fall, and then they had SBA elections. That spring. Oh, that spring. Yeah, that spring. Impressive. Yeah. Well, yeah.
00:16:03
Speaker
I wasn't here then. What year are we talking about? This is 2013. Okay. All right. So we were in this building already. Yes. And I think, you know, SBA was operating well for, you know, a good while. And I think we just had some ambitions, a small group, a small couple of peers, and I just had ambitions to
00:16:28
Speaker
formalize it a little bit more, build it out a little bit more, focus in on community relationships and so forth, and make sure that we're meeting the needs of the student body. We had Superstorm Sandy, and that really pushed us, it tested us. It helped us to build bonds. We were forced to be more than superficially aligned with each other.
00:16:52
Speaker
We had peers that stayed with us for weeks at a time because their apartments didn't have power or good running water or whatever were the results of Superstorm State at the time. We came together and we created
00:17:07
Speaker
a food drive and, you know, and made sure that, you know, folks had stuff to eat and a place to go and could get those things, you know, maintaining their dignity. Right. It's hard to ask. Right. And we knew that when Colorado was hit with a similar storm, we reached out to them and we did a fundraiser and say, look, we just had Sandy, we know what you're going through. Right. And we know how disruptive this can be to your legal learning process.
00:17:36
Speaker
So we fundraised and then Dean Chen helped us to bridge the gap and make the connection and send our support. We did mentorship programs, we did pen-pal programs with young students in elementary school and told them, hey, come to Rutgers, right? And sent them swag from the school store.
00:18:00
Speaker
we created a service initiative and as we set a goal of like 300 service hours and ended up hitting double that right and those were the kind of initiatives that we had in mind and it was an enterprising group as a matter of fact the undergraduate newspaper
00:18:18
Speaker
wrote a story and the title of it was The Return of the People's Electric Law School. And we were so flattered, right? That's very meaningful to us because we all kind of look to that era for inspiration. And I think it's a big draw, all right, to both MSP and to Rucker's Law.
00:18:37
Speaker
Okay, well, and I appreciate hearing all about those initiatives you did as SBA president while you're also part of our historic minority student program.
Minority Student Program at Rutgers
00:18:50
Speaker
And you had mentioned that this is a reason why you came to Rutgers Law School. Tell me a little bit more about that. What is it about MSP that appealed to you as a student?
00:19:00
Speaker
Absolutely. MSP was probably the top draw for why I came to Rutgers Law and for a couple of reasons. One, the folks that I met that I talked about a little bit earlier, Andy and Guillermo, they were in MSP.
00:19:16
Speaker
right? So they would tell me about the program and they would talk about it in terms of family. So, you know, that's, you know, for someone like me, that's a selling point, right? This is going to be a big selling point. And I went to an open house that was hosted by then Dean Yvette Bravo Weber, my dean, right, for MSP. And
00:19:40
Speaker
I was actually surprised by how true the statements were about the program. It was super familial, right? You could tell, I mean, just the way, the way that Dean Bravo Webber would talk to her students, right? You could tell that there was a genuine care there, right? There was like a genuine, you know, dare I say, love right there.
00:20:10
Speaker
And I immediately, just seeing them interact with each other, not even me interacting with the dean herself, which we became close when I became a student, just seeing how everyone interacted with each other and how she interacted with them inspired me to be a part of it. I wanted to be a part of that.
00:20:30
Speaker
And then I started to look into the history of the program. And that really inspired me, right? How it was begun, for what purpose it was begun. Incredible figures like Arthur Kanoy and Al Slocum, and the careers that they were able to forge. And of course, the graduates of the program.
00:20:51
Speaker
some of whom I had worked for in the past, including Senator Bob Menendez, who I entered for when I was an undergrad. That really piqued my interest and put Rutgers above all of the other schools, frankly, that I applied to and was accepted to. MSP is indeed
00:21:15
Speaker
one of the, what is so special, one of the reasons why Rutgers Law School is so special. And here in Newark, we've had this program for over 50 years. Camden's program is about five years old, and so we
00:21:30
Speaker
It's been great to be able to develop the MSP program in Camden. Here in Newark, it began, as you said, in a way that was designed to help diversify the legal profession in order to, particularly for black attorneys at that time, when
00:21:49
Speaker
the bar was closed off to African American lawyers and other people of color. And so MSP was designed to break that barrier and did, and then got expanded to also include other people of color and other groups who face disadvantages in their life. Now that you are the Dean of MSP, you get to shape the program in ways that you want.
00:22:19
Speaker
with the support of faculty and administration and students. Why did you decide to take on this role? We've skipped over your years of practice, but at this point I want to explore the desire to continue the family theme and be part of the MSP family.
00:22:41
Speaker
Absolutely. I think there's two sides to it. The one side is what personally I hope to accomplish. My life's work, so to speak. But the other side I think is a bit more personal and it's that, it goes back to my mother. My mother lived a life of service. And I remember her bringing me to work. My mother worked in a retired fireman's home in boot in New Jersey.
00:23:08
Speaker
And she used to bring me to work and I would interact with these, you know, just accomplished public servants, right? And it made very clear for me, you know, even, you know, when she passed, the community that came out and talked about her and talked about, you know, the amazing ways that she helped to perpetuate community and love in the community.
00:23:35
Speaker
That set the foundation for how I look at the world and look at family and look at the expanded idea of what family is. An MSP and the ability to shape this program in part is an extension of what I believe is my mother's legacy of service, living a life of service.
00:23:55
Speaker
That's what piqued my interest in applying for the role. The opportunity to help the next generation of lawyers coming out of Rutgers Law generally, and people's electric lawyers, to shape their careers, anchored in notions of community and love.
00:24:15
Speaker
but also to play a part on the more professional end, to play a part in moving that needle in the direction of diversifying the profession. Because we know the benefits of diversity. I don't think we want to go too deep into that for this talk.
00:24:36
Speaker
It's one of those things that everyone can play a role in, but this role in particular gets you on the ground floor, right, into the trenches, right? And you mentioned internal supports and faculty and administrative supports. We also have external stakeholders, you know, that we work closely with, all that help to shape the program.
00:24:59
Speaker
But to answer more directly as to why, to me it's going to sound a little bit hokey, but to me it's a labor of love. It's tough work. It is tough work. Double down on that. But I've seen the benefits of the program in my life. I've seen the benefits of the program in the lives of my peers and cohort.
00:25:21
Speaker
I've had the great fortune of meeting and speaking and networking with past cohorts, like large groups of individuals that have
00:25:32
Speaker
I graduated from the MSP program and they've talked about the benefits of the program on their professional trajectories and personal lives. The opportunity to play that role, to help others in that way, to make a meaningful and lasting impact, that's why I'm in the game. That's why I decided to apply for this role.
00:25:52
Speaker
And I'm glad that you did. And here you are, more than six months later, running the show. If you can describe to a student who's interested in applying to law school and then also
00:26:05
Speaker
because we know MSP supposed admissions program. If you were to talk to a student who has already been admitted to Rutgers Law School, why they should apply to your program? What are the three main things that you will highlight for them as to why they should do so? That's a great question. You got me on three main things. All right, great. All right, I'd say the first thing is
00:26:29
Speaker
A lot of folks that come to law school, particularly folks of color that come to law school are first generation, either first generation college, first generation lawyer. So this is number one. Part of what makes MSP beneficial is access to other first generation folks so that there's built-in support. The second thing that makes MSP particularly special is
00:26:57
Speaker
Part of what makes you successful in the law is confidence. And a lot of people get their confidence from who they are, how they identify. And a lot of identification sometimes comes from the family you belong to.
00:27:13
Speaker
MSP is a family, right? And so we say this is a family thing and we want you to have confidence in knowing that you have a family behind you to support you, right? That will dream with you, but not just dream that will work with you to achieve those dreams, right? So that's number two, right? So it's your peers, yes, but then it's this whole expensive network of practicing professionals, right? That are ready and willing to help you out when you're ready to make your career moves.
00:27:40
Speaker
And then the last thing I'll say is you know if if there are any concerns around because you know a lot of times We're coming from Underperforming schools initially right so there's a little bit of catch-up that has to happen If there are any concerns in that way MSP is very intent right on providing support services right supplemental services and
00:28:02
Speaker
That'll help get you up to speed and then get you beyond, right? So you can go ahead and gun for the curve if that's what's in your heart, right? The point is, you know, you meet the same base criteria anyone who comes to Rutgers Law and gets admitted meets, right? But you may have different challenges, right? So we're here to work with you on overcoming all of those challenges, right? So you can thrive, right? It's not about surviving law school.
00:28:31
Speaker
It's about making the most of your time while you're here. It's about thriving. Absolutely. And being part of a family, of a network of people within the law school, but then also outside. Absolutely. More than 50 years of people who have been part of this program who are committed to helping the students succeed, get jobs, do well in law school. And so it is such an incredible program.
Future Aspirations and Rutgers Promotion
00:28:58
Speaker
And we're lucky. We're lucky that you're here leading this organization or this program. I recall your dream party during orientation and you asked a question. You ask the students to dream, to imagine where they are in a few years. Was it five years? Yes. Okay. Where do you see yourself in five years?
00:29:21
Speaker
That's a great question. I hope to be making this kind of impact in five years, right? I hope to be... Well, first of all, I hope to be seen in five years. That's important. I want to be around. But I hope that by that time, we've made enough of a difference, enough of an impact,
00:29:47
Speaker
that there are just gobs of folks out there who see the world in this way, who approach their legal careers with love in their hearts and certainly wanting to advocate for the people that they serve.
00:30:03
Speaker
But that see diplomacy and peace as worthwhile efforts, as worthwhile goals. That see the power in their voices and that see the import of touching hearts as much as we move institutions.
00:30:26
Speaker
I know that's not like a super concrete answer, but I certainly hope to make, you know, all of the past deans of this MSB program, you Rose, right, in our entire Rutgers Law community proud in that time. Well, we are extremely proud and happy that you're here with us. Thank you again for joining us this morning. Thank you.
00:30:45
Speaker
The power of attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers a prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting blog.rutgers.edu.