Transcript
Speaker: What does it take to get beyond the damage of words?
Speaker: I'm Katrina Collier.
Speaker: Join me each week as I explore what it takes to step into a happier future.
Speaker: My guests are sharing their stories of when they realized that they needed help and what it took to take that first step so that you leave inspired and maybe even start on your own path to self-love, care, compassion, and of course, happiness.
Speaker: So without further ado, let's hear their stories.
Speaker: Matt Jessup, welcome to Beyond the Damage of Words podcast.
Speaker: Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker: And at 5pm when we're both a bit like... Lovely to be here and thank you for making the time.
Speaker: Oh, thank you as well.
Speaker: I always think whenever the men speak up especially, I'm very, very grateful that you're doing that.
Speaker: So we always just launch straight in here.
Speaker: So what led you into going and seeking some help or was it a series of things that led you in?
Speaker: Yeah, I think it was a series of things.
Speaker: I think subconsciously I've known for some time that I was struggling for a variety of reasons.
Speaker: I don't recall any one particular event that kind of sort of led me to go and seek help.
Speaker: I think it was more a succession of different things.
Speaker: I think a little bit of my wife cajoling me.
Speaker: Or nagging, depending on which term you prefer.
Speaker: We women would just say nagging.
Speaker: We know we're nagging.
Speaker: We don't like nagging.
Speaker: We just nag.
Speaker: Because your thing does sound kinder, though.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: She knows me well enough to know that I was struggling.
Speaker: So she encouraged me.
Speaker: I had a conversation with a dear friend in the US who'd gone through a bit of a messy divorce, and he said something that stuck with me, being that he'd been told in no uncertain terms that he wouldn't be much use to his kids and supporting them through the separation if he didn't first look after himself and get himself to a good place.
Speaker: And that really struck home with me.
Speaker: It's quite a tough concept as well, isn't it?
Speaker: Because sometimes we feel like we're being a bit indulgent or we're, you know, taking care of ourselves is sort of selfish or something.
Speaker: But it is exactly what you said, that we cannot care for our families if we don't care for ourselves first.
Speaker: A hundred percent.
Speaker: And I think...
Speaker: As a male as well, I think there is an expectation that you're the pillar of the family and the support, and therefore, to a certain extent, for the rest of the family.
Speaker: I mean, most families, we all know that the opposite is true.
Speaker: It's normally the woman that is the rock that holds everything together.
Speaker: But I think there is an expectation that we're the strong ones and...
Speaker: We don't necessarily need to look after ourselves first, but absolutely do.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: When you were having that conversation, when you were having that conversation, what were you feeling?
Speaker: I sort of sometimes hear that people feel like they're sort of like, I don't know, glued down or weighed down or they feel blackness.
Speaker: Like what were you feeling when you actually opened up to your friend?
Speaker: And I know it was a little alcoholic conversation.
Speaker: Yeah, there was alcohol involved, absolutely.
Speaker: It's the best way to open up sometimes, isn't it?
Speaker: And then you get such a supportive response, you think, ah, now I can do that without the alcohol.
Speaker: But what was going on in your body, if you were to explain it?
Speaker: Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker: At five o'clock on a Monday?
Speaker: At the time, I can't remember exactly.
Speaker: We were out for a meal after a conference, I think.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And at the time, so when I did eventually seek counselling, one of the things that –
Speaker: my counsellor highlighted to me was that I had two very different personalities in the sense that if she asked me about work, I'd be upbeat, effervescent, in my comfort zone and confident and...
Speaker: And I was in a work environment at the time, and I was away from the home, and most of the challenges were home-related.
Speaker: So I think probably in that moment, I was probably in quite a good place.
Speaker: But obviously, the challenges at home...
Speaker: were always there, always in the back of my mind.
Speaker: And I remember feeling at the time when my friend sort of said this, it really resonated and sort of struck a chord with, do you know what, that makes so much sense.
Speaker: And then...
Speaker: I think we probably carried on with the evening.
Speaker: And then it was later when I was reflecting on the conversation of like, yeah, do you know what?
Speaker: That's so true.
Speaker: And I really need to take some action.
Speaker: It's interesting because I think about –
Speaker: at work, it can often be, which you've expressed in your email to me, it's the logic side of what you do, isn't it?
Speaker: It's quite controlled and you're on deadlines and it's very easy to feel like a sense of achievement, whereas actually often when it's home, there's a lot more emotion involved and it's a lot harder to feel that impact.
Speaker: So I'm not surprised that you have the two sides to it.
Speaker: Yeah, very much.
Speaker: Control is an interesting... I'm not a control freak.
Speaker: I'm about as far from being a control freak as you can get.
Speaker: But in a work environment, I'm able to control and rationalise things and understand what's going on.
Speaker: Whereas at home, I think...
Speaker: big part of my challenge is not being able to rationalise, understand my son's mental health, to rationalise, understand the
Speaker: my wife's physical health issues that she was having at the time.
Speaker: I mean, she's fine now, but she went through a long period where we didn't really know what the root cause of the problem was to be able to do it.
Speaker: So it felt very much being out of control, being in control in a work environment.
Speaker: And I confess I would use work as an escape from the issues at home.
Speaker: It was my safe space that I
Speaker: would travel a lot and work very long hours because it got me away from having to kind of sort of face the challenges that were going on at the time.
Speaker: That's a really huge confession and just beautifully honest as well.
Speaker: I said that a lot in my home, actually, my childhood home.
Speaker: That's what dad would do.
Speaker: Yeah, Dad worked very long hours, pretty well to escape.
Speaker: It wasn't great for us, but it was good for him.
Speaker: So I can understand what you're saying, particularly, you know, with your wife's health issues, with that almost feeling of helplessness, isn't it?
Speaker: Like I really want to fix you and I can't fix you.
Speaker: I don't know what's going on.
Speaker: Yeah, and the same with my son as well.
Speaker: So I want to be able to do something, but I don't know what or how.
Speaker: I don't even understand kind of sort of the fact that he thinks differently to me.
Speaker: the average person, if you like.
Speaker: Are you happy to share?
Speaker: Are you happy to share what it is?
Speaker: Because I was surprised it said it was rare when it's one in 1,000 born.
Speaker: Like, isn't it something like five to 10 males are born with this a day?
Speaker: But a lot of them go undiaposed.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So it's not something that they check for.
Speaker: So, yeah, he has an extra male chromosome, a syndrome called 47XYY.
Speaker: So everybody has 23 pairs, and I know a lot more about genetics than I did before he was born.
Speaker: Which is cool, in a way.
Speaker: For the science brain, you're going to like that.
Speaker: Everybody has 23 pairs of chromosomes.
Speaker: Your 23rd pair are your sex chromosomes.
Speaker: So I have an X and a Y chromosome.
Speaker: You have two X chromosomes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And my son has an X and two Y chromosomes.
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker: It's not genetic.
Speaker: It's a pure freak of – it's not passed down.
Speaker: I mean, it's a pure –
Speaker: accidental thing.
Speaker: You can have extra chromosomes on any one of the 23 pairs.
Speaker: Down syndrome, for example, is an extra chromosome.
Speaker: I think it's on the 13th pair.
Speaker: I could be wrong with that.
Speaker: So depending which pair the extra chromosome attaches itself to means all sorts of different things.
Speaker: And with X, Y, Y, boys.
Speaker: Behaviour and...
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So they've not done a lot of studies into it.
Speaker: Which is surprising when it's so many people.
Speaker: That was the bit that got me from your email.
Speaker: So I'm immediately Googling because obviously Dr. Google knows everything.
Speaker: But it was the rare that it's in this many people was the bit that like rare to me is it's like in one billion or something, you know, not like, yeah, so that was quite surprising.
Speaker: So hence I was a bit cheeky and delved into that.
Speaker: I usually let people.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But, yeah, on average, boys with an extra male chromosome are four inches taller than their father.
Speaker: So I'm six foot three.
Speaker: So he's a big lad.
Speaker: He's six foot seven.
Speaker: He's straight to type.
Speaker: And have learning and behavioral difficulties, which absolutely sums him up.
Speaker: He's 28 now.
Speaker: So it's plateaued a bit.
Speaker: Ten years ago, 18, 19, 20, that was the hardest part.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Of course, all the hormones are rushing through the body through the teenage years at the time.
Speaker: And even without an extra chromosome, then obviously teenagers struggle to control their emotions.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I vaguely remember going through that phase myself.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: There's still a lot of teenagers wandering around out there.
Speaker: That's another conversation for another podcast.
Speaker: So when you went, okay, there's been this series of things and you spoke to your friend, what did you then do?
Speaker: Did you go and speak to someone?
Speaker: You mentioned a counsellor.
Speaker: Like what was the help?
Speaker: It didn't help.
Speaker: Maybe something didn't help.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I went through several different counsellors and the first few were more just talking therapy.
Speaker: So somebody sitting there listening and the opportunity to unburden yourself, which was kind of okay.
Speaker: And it works for some people and I'm not knocking it at all.
Speaker: But for me, I kind of sort of,
Speaker: wasn't learning anything new from it or moving forward at all.
Speaker: And yes, initially, the kind of first few sessions, an opportunity to unburden yourself and you kind of sort of get that feeling of release in doing so.
Speaker: But after a while, it was like, this isn't really taking me
Speaker: And it was another friend who's an NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming, I think it stands for, practitioner, who said to me, try sort of more interventionist counselling, be it NLP or interventionist.
Speaker: or one of the others.
Speaker: So I tried a different counsellor who was more interventionist who would actually challenge my thinking and question, well, why?
Speaker: Why do you think like that?
Speaker: Why do you feel that?
Speaker: And it was that that made me stop and kind of start to re-evaluate my thoughts and my feelings and those types of things.
Speaker: And that, for me, personally, was really what made a difference.
Speaker: It is quite amazing, isn't it, when someone – it's amazing when – sorry to interrupt you – when someone shows you – I'm so good at that.
Speaker: They'll have to put that on my tombstone.
Speaker: Loves to interrupt.
Speaker: It's just –
Speaker: I always get so excited.
Speaker: But it is amazing.
Speaker: I remember I talk about Michelle Zully so much when she showed me that, that like you can choose a different thought.
Speaker: And it's like when you come to that realization and you start going, why am I thinking that?
Speaker: You know, I'm sure many who've listened to the podcast know I always think when I'm having a really negative phase, I then suddenly go, I'm going to think about my dog.
Speaker: I will focus on him and I'll take myself off to something pleasant.
Speaker: But it's that, it's like a light bulb goes off, isn't it?
Speaker: And suddenly it's like, well, I can choose what I'm thinking.
Speaker: It's quite amazing.
Speaker: So I'm glad that helped.
Speaker: But I get that feeling of wanting to, the motivation to go forward.
Speaker: I get that.
Speaker: I really get that.
Speaker: It definitely did help.
Speaker: And it got to the point where I was in a much better place.
Speaker: And I stopped.
Speaker: But more recently, I've reengaged with Dawn, my cancer, because after time, it becomes harder and
Speaker: that good place so again recently I mean Ollie's gone through I mean my wife's health as I say is all sorted now so that's good but Ollie still goes through good phases and not so and more challenging phases and he's had a challenging phase recently so yeah I found myself in a space where again I need to
Speaker: um kind of sort of talk through my feelings and and help to understand and try and as much as is possible rationalize um and get back into a into a better play um and although i'm better at doing some of that myself i still need the help and support from time to time so i i i think it's crucial because they hold a mirror up to us absolutely you know it's like a
Speaker: I've had it.
Speaker: So I mentioned Roderick to you earlier, Roderick Lambert.
Speaker: So he's my business coach, but he's gone very much into the health.
Speaker: And when he was my business coach, he'd like hold a mirror up to me and he'd just say, do you know you're using all this language?
Speaker: I'm like, no.
Speaker: Even though I've done all of the healing on my personal stuff, even on the business side, there were things that I was doing.
Speaker: So I always find that really, I think that's where they're so powerful.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Being able to just hold that mirror up and hold you a bit accountable.
Speaker: But it's so much peeling layers as well.
Speaker: So you will get through to a point and you're okay and then you need to shift through another level, which is sort of shifting your healing.
Speaker: So that's great to hear.
Speaker: So what else have you done?
Speaker: Did you say CBT somewhere or is that what that is?
Speaker: Yes, Dawn.
Speaker: So the counsellor that worked for me is CBT.
Speaker: So I didn't go down the NLP route.
Speaker: I went down the CBT route.
Speaker: What's the CBT route?
Speaker: Like, what's it like?
Speaker: What's it like, the CBT?
Speaker: I actually haven't had it, I don't think, of everything I've done.
Speaker: It's good.
Speaker: It really worked for me.
Speaker: I'm sure different things work for different people and I'm not knocking any of the other variants at all.
Speaker: But as I say, she would question and draw out different circumstances and what was happening
Speaker: flipping between kind of sort of what's been happening this week, what are your raw emotions, to the kind of long term going back into your past.
Speaker: And as I described them, she would then stop me from time to time and go, right, okay, let's just probe into that one.
Speaker: Why do you think that?
Speaker: And question what I'd said.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And not...
Speaker: It could be quite confrontational, not in an aggressive way or anything like that, but not allowing me to just kind of sort of bluff my way past it and move on, but make sure that, yeah, I really did kind of sort of be introspective and look at what I was saying and why I was saying it and the way that I was saying it.
Speaker: And release the emotion.
Speaker: To really help me understand it.
Speaker: Did you hear Troy on the podcast a few weeks ago?
Speaker: He was talking about exactly that, that he went to all of these sessions and eventually they went, okay, so can I have the real Troy now?
Speaker: And he went, oh, damn it.
Speaker: He was people pleasing.
Speaker: He was saying what he thought they wanted to hear.
Speaker: Yeah, and we do.
Speaker: I mean, I do it all day, every day at work.
Speaker: It's kind of sort of I've got an agenda and I'm going to, in a very polite way, of course, but kind of sort of go down the path that I'm intending to go down.
Speaker: And then all of a sudden you find this person in your way going, oh, hang on a minute.
Speaker: And that was what was great about it.
Speaker: And she also did a...
Speaker: I think I mentioned to you on my email, I've never been formally diagnosed with complex PTSD, but she did an informal assessment and I was way past the threshold at the time because of everything that had happened at home.
Speaker: And that kind of helped me sort of understand that, yeah, it's...
Speaker: you're not just kind of sort of being a wuss or anything like that, but actually, yeah, no, you are struggling here.
Speaker: So that was kind of a helpful exercise to go through as well, just to put some context around it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, that was, I mean, I had complex PTSD from my childhood trauma, but you can get it from any repetitive trauma.
Speaker: And that's the difference between it, obviously, and PTSD is that repetition.
Speaker: But you can heal from it.
Speaker: So if you feel like I'm going to live with this forever, you don't have to.
Speaker: If you keep doing the self-work, you will get to that point where there's a lot of ease around it.
Speaker: But it was interesting listening to Gabor Marte, and I will probably drop this in the podcast quite a lot actually, a bit cheekily, but the –
Speaker: He was saying that a lot of highly sensitive children, which is like one in five, one in six people are born with high sensitivity, who even just have stressed parents can end up with complex PTSD, but it shows as ADHD.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And they're given a drug because that suits the pharmaceutical configuration.
Speaker: So I have this concern all the time when people say they've got ADHD and I'm listening to the symptoms going, gosh, that sounds just like complex PTSD.
Speaker: And you've told me you've been through that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then you can, like you've done, go and get help and start easing the symptoms rather than numbing with a... Yeah.
Speaker: But anyway, that's just me having a little side rant.
Speaker: The interesting part for me is kind of sort of the, and I know some of it is putting labels, but actually labels sometimes can help in terms of contextualizing things.
Speaker: But an aspect of the PTSD, which I'm sure you've seen, is the different events trigger different behaviors.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: Ollie would come through the front door and within a matter of seconds, I was, depending on how he was, I would either be in fight or flight mode, defensive.
Speaker: Hypervigilance.
Speaker: Previous experiences and all of those kind of things.
Speaker: Helping me understand that response was,
Speaker: and talk myself down from it at times was super helpful in terms of moving forward.
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: And just to really gain that awareness, it's like a hypervigilance.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: In that, you know, you go into alert and just when you suddenly realise that.
Speaker: But the triggers is really interesting.
Speaker: What I will say is,
Speaker: I've healed my core wounds because mine came from child abuse, so I've healed that, but I can still trigger.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, you know, Sue Ingram will attest to that when we were away last year.
Speaker: She said something as a joke and I just did not take it as a joke.
Speaker: And I went, which is not like me.
Speaker: And I've known her for years and it was just like, I thought she was doing what mum used to do, which was lying about me.
Speaker: And she was just joking and she really was just joking and it all came from heart because she's just gorgeous.
Speaker: And it was like, oh.
Speaker: But it was over in seconds.
Speaker: It was the really quick awareness of, whoa, hang on, rather than it used to be it became days' worth of drama.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's so good that you've got that awareness so you can start just creating a safe space for yourself as well when you're kind of going into a situation with him.
Speaker: Sorry, I interrupted you again.
Speaker: No, that's right.
Speaker: I was interrupting you.
Speaker: I apologize.
Speaker: No, do.
Speaker: Please.
Speaker: One of my unhelpful behaviors is one of my coping strategies when things got challenging was to withdraw and shut down in terms of Q&A.
Speaker: communicating.
Speaker: And that drove two things which kind of perpetuated the problem.
Speaker: One, I wasn't communicating, so I was making the situation worse with the people around me.
Speaker: But also by withdrawing, I was withdrawing into my own head and perpetuating my own
Speaker: narrative around what was wrong and all of these kind of things and again making the situation worse so kind of sort of having that fight or flight reaction and being able to recognise it and modify my behaviours as part of that has definitely made a difference I don't know I still do I've still got a long way to go but having that kind of sort of awareness definitely helps
Speaker: There's probably a difference now.
Speaker: Like you can now say to your wife, I know I'm withdrawing.
Speaker: I just need to go and withdraw.
Speaker: I will be back.
Speaker: Almost reassuring her rather than, oh, gosh, how long is he going to be gone for?
Speaker: He's going on.
Speaker: Because it's a very male thing to withdraw.
Speaker: I think this is why I'm struggling to get men to speak on the podcast since I'm so grateful.
Speaker: It's that normal thing to just withdraw and shush and shut down, strip up a lip.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: And of course, that's not what we need as women.
Speaker: We need the opposite.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: It's okay if you kind of give it a timeframe.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: Yeah, I was just saying my wife's particularly outgoing and extrovert.
Speaker: So she finds it exceptionally frustrating when I withdraw because it's the complete opposite of her norm.
Speaker: So it does create tensions from time to time.
Speaker: But a part of it is you need that space to a certain extent, but
Speaker: But doing it too often and too deeply and for too long is destructive.
Speaker: And recognising that and being able to pull myself out of it
Speaker: Which is great, isn't it?
Speaker: That's what you got out of the session, even just that.
Speaker: But I'm sure there's so much more.
Speaker: I think that realisation of understanding how you're reacting and why you're reacting that way as well.
Speaker: I wish there was more information around about complex PTSD.
Speaker: There's a few people popping up that are being very vocal about it, which is great.
Speaker: So give it time.
Speaker: Cause there's plenty of it around.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And then the other thing that sort of learning from me, which I've learned to recognize everything is not through anybody kind of sort of telling me, but just for kind of sort of working it out for myself is the importance of sleep.
Speaker: So unfortunately I, uh,
Speaker: one of my self-medication strategies was to comfort eat, and I still do.
Speaker: So weight has then led to
Speaker: Sleep apnea and the quality of my sleep being poor.
Speaker: And I still struggle with that now.
Speaker: I have a CPAP machine, but I do need to lose weight, and that would help with that situation.
Speaker: But recognizing when I'm tired and how different I do.
Speaker: how much better I deal with situations when I'm not tired to when I am tired and the importance of sleep and trying to do what I can.
Speaker: And then, of course, if you're comfort eating, you're probably going for the sugary sweets stuff, which is keeping you awake, especially around three.
Speaker: That's when it begins to get me, which is when we then go into a worrying zone, overthinking, like, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, it is a vicious, vicious cycle.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: And difficult to break as well.
Speaker: Yeah, but I think it's interesting because I think if you keep continuing on that path and then that really helps you with the self-worth, you will stop reaching for the comfort eating.
Speaker: But, yeah, I mean, I would call it food addiction probably more than.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's a toughie.
Speaker: It's quite – and it's definitely one of – I've put the – in my memoir, I've put the trauma tree, and it's quite interesting because it is one of the addictions, food addiction, and it is a way of – My wife's –
Speaker: a very good role model for breaking that.
Speaker: So in the last year she's lost five stone and exercising regularly and has done fantastically well, very proud of her.
Speaker: What was this switch?
Speaker: Did she sort out something like up here that helped –
Speaker: Sorry for the podcast.
Speaker: I'm pointing at my head.
Speaker: I keep forgetting there's a podcast here as well.
Speaker: But it was a mental thing as well, not just, oh, I'm going to calorie deprive or whatever.
Speaker: awful thing that it was um yeah it was actually um a flight to america nine hours on a plane um problems with her back and her hips and being in a lot of discomfort um and her brother lives just north of seattle so it was like if i don't sort something out sort myself out potentially i'm not going to be able to go and see my brother um
Speaker: And she's actually off to see her brother in a few weeks, which is great.
Speaker: And it was that one particular, well, a flight to Florida and back again where she really, really struggled, which was the trigger for her to go, no, I've got to sort this out.
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: Yeah, she's done fantastically well.
Speaker: But shown me a path of, yeah, it can be done and you can break the cycle.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: and make a difference.
Speaker: You've got to have the reason.
Speaker: So she's had a strong reason.
Speaker: But with yours, I feel like there is that underlying cause.
Speaker: And I know there's stuff which we won't go into, but there is other stuff.
Speaker: And I think that once you start healing that, then it will just be easier.
Speaker: yeah definitely it is it is mostly food that's the really interesting thing we often think oh we have to exercise exercise is very important particularly as we're older but actually most of it is the food um it just changes yeah but there are also ways to do it without feeling hungry believe it or not which is important
Speaker: The extra step for me, which is kind of tied into what we were talking about earlier, which I know, but I haven't quite cracked it yet, is work is my comfort zone, but it also becomes my excuse for not having time to do the exercise, which is total rubbish, really.
Speaker: It's not really a good excuse, but I use it as an excuse of, oh, I've got too much work to do.
Speaker: I haven't got...
Speaker: time to go for a walk or do these kind of things.
Speaker: And that's the bit that I need to kind of sort of break in my head to get me on the right path.
Speaker: I'm going to take you straight back to the trauma tree because work addiction is very real.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Exercise addiction is also one.
Speaker: So my ex-husband, exercise addiction.
Speaker: So like he is stick thin and forever exercising, but that fills a void for him.
Speaker: But it's like it's another distraction.
Speaker: So it's all about balance.
Speaker: While you're saying that, I'm just thinking of the deadlines I've got coming up and must make sure I keep exercising.
Speaker: The self-imposed deadline I've just given myself.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: like oh didn't think that through what about the exercise because I know I'm like you it'll be the first thing that gets thrown out yes but actually it's it's funny just even just even doing it from a strength point of view it's just I bet your wife says that as well just feeling strong again it's really quite exciting yes it really does not so much the addiction but just the that feeling of strong
Speaker: Feeling strong and feeling of taking back control of her life as well.
Speaker: It's a real kind of sort of positive drug, if you like, in its own right.
Speaker: That's been really good for her.
Speaker: She'll have no problem on that flight this time.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: And also Seattle's quite outdoorsy city as well, so she'll be able to walk around Seattle really easily as well.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Not in the cold, I hope.
Speaker: Sorry, I missed that.
Speaker: I was just saying her brother's very outdoorsy as well, so they'll be out exercising and walking the dog when they're out there and all those good things.
Speaker: So, yeah, no, she's very much looking forward to it.
Speaker: I have seen some hysterical photos of Seattle in the snow.
Speaker: It's not so great.
Speaker: Just lots of people sliding down hills.
Speaker: So I hope she's not going when it's like that.
Speaker: That's for sure.
Speaker: I should be jealous because I'm right down on the south coast.
Speaker: So I can't remember the last time we had snow down here of any significance and I really miss it.
Speaker: So it always snowed in my childhood and we don't seem to get it these days down here on the coast.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: I'll be jealous if it snows while she's out there.
Speaker: Yeah, I think we had like a smattering the other day here in London, but it was like, wow.
Speaker: Nothing, not like you used to have.
Speaker: So if you were to leave the listener with like a final thought or a final word, what would they be for anyone that's listening or even for yourself?
Speaker: What's next?
Speaker: What do you plan to do besides the wait thing?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think to the spirit of the podcast, I mean, if you're thinking about breaking the cycle and doing something, do it.
Speaker: You'll never regret it.
Speaker: And it could be different things for different people are the right way forward, but just do something and break the cycle.
Speaker: And there's no shame in asking for help and seeking help whatsoever.
Speaker: But also...
Speaker: Again, a bit like me at the moment, if you've done it in the past and it helped, then get back to it.
Speaker: So I'm sure you know better than I that it's a lifelong journey that you need to keep feeding it and moving forward.
Speaker: So, yeah, if you haven't done it, do it.
Speaker: If you need to do it again, do it again.
Speaker: Yeah, and I also love that you tried something and you're like, it wasn't for me, but then you tried something else and you tried it.
Speaker: And sometimes people feel like they can't do that and you should because I've tried lots of things and some I've got.
Speaker: And others are like, oh, my gosh, I love this.
Speaker: And you're exactly right.
Speaker: It's what suits that person.
Speaker: We're all so different, aren't we?
Speaker: Find the person with the therapy or whatever, the healing modality that helps you.
Speaker: As I mentioned, the trigger for me was talking to friends and colleagues and getting their ideas and input.
Speaker: I mean, if it wasn't for one friend who said, well, try something interventionist, and if it wasn't for my conversation with my
Speaker: my colleague originally in America, that had been kind of sort of the original seed of it all.
Speaker: So if you're not talking to people just informally and kind of sort of helping you shape what is the right way forward in your mind, so don't be afraid to have those conversations.
Speaker: The one thing I have learned, the one thing I've never learned
Speaker: had a problem with is kind of sort of talking about my son or my wife to, to other people.
Speaker: And that has always helped.
Speaker: And the one thing that I have learned through talking to people is that
Speaker: the number of people that have all different challenges but relatable challenges that they're going through, I think it's so easy to fall into the trap of kind of sort of there's not many of us out there that are struggling in the way that I'm struggling or whatever it might be, and that just couldn't be further from the truth.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Ian Pettigrew has a beautiful question, and I know that I saw in your email you wrote that someone actually asked you how you were.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: His question is, how are you today?
Speaker: And he's like, ask people, how are you today?
Speaker: And it's like it's such a powerful question.
Speaker: And then people can't really fob it off either.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's amazing.
Speaker: Matt, if people want to get in touch with you, shall I put your LinkedIn?
Speaker: Is that the easiest if someone wanted to get in touch?
Speaker: But thank you.
Speaker: I think you're so right.
Speaker: And you've bravely spoken up on this podcast.
Speaker: And I think that's it, isn't it?
Speaker: Just fantastic.
Speaker: Speak up, talk to people.
Speaker: You're so right.
Speaker: There's plenty of people having stuff.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: I'm so grateful for your time.
Speaker: No, no, thank you.
Speaker: Absolute pleasure.
Speaker: Thank you for tuning in to Beyond the Damage of Words.
Speaker: How brave, how vulnerable.
Speaker: All to inspire listeners like you to take a step or inspire others to take a step.
Speaker: Imagine what healing we could create if we normalised this conversation.
Speaker: So please pass this on and of course, subscribe so we can do just that.
Speaker: Until next time.
Speaker: Thank you.
