Transcript
Speaker: What does it take to get beyond the damage of words?
Speaker: I'm Katrina Collier.
Speaker: Join me each week as I explore what it takes to step into a happier future.
Speaker: My guests are sharing their stories of when they realized that they needed help and what it took to take that first step so that you leave inspired and maybe even start on your own path to self-love, care, compassion, and of course, happiness.
Speaker: So without further ado, let's hear their stories.
Speaker: Ian Pettigrew, welcome to Beyond the Damage of Words podcast.
Speaker: Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker: How are you today?
Speaker: Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker: It's an absolute pleasure to be on, but also just to get to hang out with you.
Speaker: And I'm really good.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: I'm really good.
Speaker: What about you?
Speaker: I learned that statement from you, didn't I?
Speaker: That's why you laughed.
Speaker: How are you today?
Speaker: So there's no preamble here.
Speaker: As you know, I just launched straight in.
Speaker: So what led you into working on yourself?
Speaker: and just deciding to make a change?
Speaker: I think it goes back quite a long time.
Speaker: It's just wanting things to be different.
Speaker: I'm kind of, I am very ambitious.
Speaker: not in terms of money or fame or all sorts of things, but I'm really fiercely ambitious in terms of the positive impact I want to make on the world.
Speaker: And I just knew that a few years ago, I wasn't equipped to do that.
Speaker: I wasn't in the position that I wanted to do that.
Speaker: So I'm kind of really intentional about knowing what it is I want and doing what I need to do to get that.
Speaker: And doing the work on myself was very, very much part of that journey.
Speaker: When you say a few years, is that before we're meeting you or after?
Speaker: Because I'm thinking, when did we go to Kampala the first time?
Speaker: 2015, 16?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, well, I think for me it's been an ongoing journey.
Speaker: So I've been knocking around for a while.
Speaker: So I started working in London.
Speaker: first proper job post uni was 1988 and sort of first few years corporate life I really struggled with my confidence you know I was quiet I was shy I would overthink a lot of things I would be very reluctant to sort of stand up and present and so there's just been I think layers and layers of working on that working on sort of what happened during my corporate career and then I left in 2009
Speaker: to set up on their own and then there's a whole levels and layers of sort of things I've been working on since then.
Speaker: So when you say when was that, I'd say the last 35 years.
Speaker: So pre-us meeting.
Speaker: Because, I mean, corporate world can be quite soul-destroying, can't it?
Speaker: I mean, particularly if you are shy and you're not – and they just seem to make it worse.
Speaker: Like what was it about that experience that –
Speaker: I mean, one led you to leave.
Speaker: That would be quite interesting because you left and started on your own.
Speaker: Yeah, well, there was nothing really wrong that led me to leave.
Speaker: It just wasn't enough.
Speaker: So I was change director in a pharmaceutical company leading large-scale organizational change, really enjoyed a lot of my work.
Speaker: You know, there was a lot to like, but I wanted to
Speaker: more of a portfolio career.
Speaker: This is going to sound really arrogant, but I just don't like working for somebody else.
Speaker: I'd rather be in control of my own destiny.
Speaker: I'm probably absolutely unemployable now.
Speaker: I can't even comprehend.
Speaker: I'm unemployable.
Speaker: Yeah, I can't imagine the thought of actually having a job.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: I love being unemployable.
Speaker: Unemployable is very, oh, I love it.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: You can start the club.
Speaker: So it wasn't sort of, there was nothing wrong.
Speaker: It was just that I wasn't able to do what I wanted and do everything that I wanted.
Speaker: And I'd been to Charles Handy, the old sort of management professor.
Speaker: I'd heard him speak in person at Birmingham.
Speaker: And he talked about portfolio careers, about having a mix of things you do.
Speaker: that give you different things and you can turn the dial up and down over time.
Speaker: And I just remember sitting, you know, and listening, thinking, yeah, that's what I want.
Speaker: And so leaving corporate was part of that.
Speaker: It's so different to when we started out.
Speaker: So, I mean, you basically started in the corporate world, right?
Speaker: So I was leaving school and then I mucked around in uni and then got a job.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: But it's that, well, it was a similar age group, similar enough that it was like a job for life still.
Speaker: You know, I still have my parents telling me that and you're just like, I mean, yeah, being able to say, I don't know where my next bit of income is or what my next client will be or what I'll be doing.
Speaker: would shock them so much but it's like that's how it is and it's great fun but it means you get to do work that really lifts you up too doesn't it it changes yeah and you you know that I'm just in the process of reducing my working hours a little bit to one have more time to chill out overall but also to free up time for the academic research and the book yeah and I just love the fact that
Speaker: I don't have to consult with anybody.
Speaker: It's not a major thing.
Speaker: It's just a constant evolution of turning the dials up and down of the mix of things that I do in that portfolio.
Speaker: So I attach a lot of value to that freedom and the autonomy that I've got to be able to do that.
Speaker: I do feel like I've got the best job in the world.
Speaker: But I also felt like you were probably burning out.
Speaker: You were doing a lot, weren't you?
Speaker: I mean, you were working a lot of days.
Speaker: So actually to see that update where you've clearly gone, I can't do this, I need to slow down, was actually brilliant to see.
Speaker: Well, thank you.
Speaker: And it's like you...
Speaker: I thoroughly enjoy what I do.
Speaker: You know, I really, I do feel, it's going to sound a bit hippie for me, I do feel a strong sense of calling to the work and I thoroughly enjoy it.
Speaker: And I do, you know, I will always be teetering on working too hard and straying into that.
Speaker: So, and the other thing is that, you know, I've had a few, you know, managed to
Speaker: break my ankle in all three places, break every bone in it, try malleolar fracture.
Speaker: You know, there's a few things I've had and it's like after that really prioritized my fitness.
Speaker: And one of the things that I prioritize is fitness, sleep, nutrition, you know, not the whole thing.
Speaker: And I can't,
Speaker: and I've also still committed to this ridiculous endurance cycling challenge that I'm still training towards and it's not just about putting the work in on training it's about putting the work in on recovery and so yeah so it's just I felt like the universe was going well you're not listening in we're just going to really slow you down here because you were doing a lot weren't you at that point as well
Speaker: So going, let's go back to when did you, I mean, have you actively worked on yourself?
Speaker: Obviously, I know that you're a coach now so that you had to have worked on yourself, but did you seek a professional?
Speaker: Did you start reading?
Speaker: What did you do that started you changing because he didn't like where you were at?
Speaker: I think I'm making sense at this point.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'll answer what I think you asked.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm not sure what I asked.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'd say it sort of probably, I feel like I blundered a bit through for the first few years and then probably kind of, I don't know, around about 2000, something like that, really started to look for answers, you know, think about, you know, I'm sure I've got more I can do and I'm sure I'm getting in my own way.
Speaker: Started reading voraciously, consuming things,
Speaker: worked with some coaches, had some coaching as well, and then trained as a coach while I was at AstraZeneca and started to use that as part of my job.
Speaker: And then I've always found that my coaching training...
Speaker: has always been really valuable because the way you teach coaching is you have people practice on each other so there's always been a massive formational element so in the early days of my coach training um then again when I trained with Gallup um as a certified strengths coach and then the advanced coaching and then I've been doing my master's in um
Speaker: applied positive psychology and coaching psychology.
Speaker: And again, for all of that training, there's a massive formational element.
Speaker: So yeah, so it's been reading...
Speaker: You're being practiced on.
Speaker: And then the practicing on each other as well has been always much more, I've always got much more out of that than I ever expected I would.
Speaker: And I always am sort of constantly surprised by that.
Speaker: Was there one particular one that you're happy to share where you went, oh my gosh, like it was just a particular session where like a light bulb went off?
Speaker: You mentioned getting out of your own way.
Speaker: Was it something, can you remember one?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I think there's,
Speaker: There's a few things.
Speaker: I think one is strength-based work.
Speaker: And, you know, because often we all get caught up in this deficit discourse.
Speaker: You know, we focus on what's wrong rather than what's right.
Speaker: And there's a famous research paper, Baumeister, that says bad is stronger than good.
Speaker: You know, we often focus on the bad and ignore the good.
Speaker: And one of the beliefs is that that's because you go back thousands of years, bad was life-threatening.
Speaker: You had to pay attention to the bad, otherwise you wouldn't survive and you could get away without a focus on the good.
Speaker: So we could end up in that deficit discourse.
Speaker: And when I first started to do work on strengths...
Speaker: And the entire focus is on what's right with you and you are enough and be more you.
Speaker: And that was when looking at my own strengths and working on them and the more I've worked with other people, it's kind of like, yeah, do you know what?
Speaker: I've got everything I need.
Speaker: And some of the things that I regarded as weaknesses were- Shifting energy.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: When you suddenly go, I've got what I need.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like you go from, oh, I should have all these.
Speaker: Oh, hang on, I've got these.
Speaker: These are amazing.
Speaker: Well, and that's a real, and that's one of my kind of greatest privileges in the work that I get to do, which is that it is amazing to really be able to hold a mirror up to somebody, help them focus on what's right with them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then help them to just have that realisation that they are enough.
Speaker: You know, it's an amazing place.
Speaker: I wrote in because you have a chapter in my memoir.
Speaker: I think you know that, but I don't know that I've shared it all with you.
Speaker: But I wrote about because it was interesting, actually, the strengths that I have are totally because of my childhood as well.
Speaker: And it's like the benefit of.
Speaker: of my childhood is that I have these incredible strengths over here.
Speaker: And then even, I can't remember what my weakest, weakest one was, my not so strong, but even that was a clear direct result as well.
Speaker: It was just so easy to be able to see that.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You can see where they came from.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But also just like that understanding, isn't it?
Speaker: Oh, I don't want to do something because it's over there in that one and not in my strengths.
Speaker: And then, so discard that, do this.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: So that was a real moment for me and I can start, you know, and I still, that influences me every single day.
Speaker: And then the other thing was when I've done work and training around cognitive behavioral coaching, which is to dive into the power of the stories that we tell ourselves.
Speaker: And, you know, I remember, um,
Speaker: unearthing some things about where I get in my own way and about situations where I might in the past have felt intimidated by certain people.
Speaker: And so to be able to do the work on that is really powerful.
Speaker: And it's ongoing.
Speaker: It's kind of, you know, I...
Speaker: It's amazing.
Speaker: Sorry, I'm interested.
Speaker: I'm going to finish that point.
Speaker: There's a real, sorry, there's a real, that was a thought.
Speaker: There's a real duality because in one way, I am really happy with who I am.
Speaker: You know, I am really content.
Speaker: I really like who I am.
Speaker: I'm really proud of what I've achieved.
Speaker: And I'm really kind of, yeah, I'm proud of the work that I do.
Speaker: And so I'm really content.
Speaker: But at the same time, I can always see more potential and more upside.
Speaker: And so there's this kind of duality, this tension of,
Speaker: yeah do you know what really really happy and content and this yeah but actually do you know what could do more so i'd very much describe myself as work in progress on the development front still continuing the journey but at the same time actually very happy yeah which is i'm continuing to do more and i'm very happy but does that come because it's almost like the way i wonder if this is a story you're telling yourself
Speaker: it almost sounds like you're coming from lack, like, oh, I need more, I need more.
Speaker: But that's not, you're wanting to contribute, you're wanting to serve and you're wanting to help other people more from your place of happiness.
Speaker: So I see it quite, I mean, I feel the same, but I also think it's that, it's such a funny thing because I just, I guess it's the network of friends that I have, you know, you see all these awful things about, oh, you should be retiring soon.
Speaker: And we're all like, I'm sorry, what?
Speaker: I've got friends in the mid-60s like, what?
Speaker: I don't want to retire.
Speaker: I've still got so much to give.
Speaker: And I think it's that we get to do that through our work.
Speaker: So we're very lucky that we keep to get to play it forward.
Speaker: Now I forgot what my question was going to be.
Speaker: Never mind.
Speaker: Can I say fortunate instead of lucky?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Because you and I have both worked really hard for what we've got.
Speaker: So I tend not to use the word lucky in that context.
Speaker: This is true.
Speaker: I have had a little bit of luck, but yes, a lot of it's been a lot of work as well, hasn't it?
Speaker: Like, oh man, I wish I could remember what I was going to ask.
Speaker: Never mind.
Speaker: So be right for interrupting.
Speaker: And so that's it.
Speaker: Yeah, the strengths piece and the cognitive behavioral coaching about mindset have been the real things that have kind of been turning points for me.
Speaker: I remember.
Speaker: Go on.
Speaker: So did you find, though, so I wrote an entire chapter about the energy we hold around money, which is often money stories, which is what you're talking about.
Speaker: Did you find some of the aha moments when you were doing that, when you were kind of, the stories would go back to, oh, you know, Uncle Joe said this to me when I was a kid and I've taken that on as gospel or, you know, did you have those kind of aha moments where you could thread the story back?
Speaker: Yeah, but- The teacher said this or someone did this or just-
Speaker: Some, but I think it's more generic.
Speaker: Like we didn't have much money at all when I was growing up.
Speaker: And so, you know, one of my fears is always of being skint.
Speaker: You know, it's like I hate to be back in that position ever again.
Speaker: So, yeah, there's some generic things like that.
Speaker: So, yeah, so my entire money motivator is not to be skint.
Speaker: You know, it's not to be in that position that, you know, we were when I was a small child.
Speaker: Yeah, we call them money blocks.
Speaker: It's really interesting.
Speaker: I work with Polly Alexander and Denise Duffield-Thomas and I've just written about my experience and stuff like that.
Speaker: But it was also the stuff that comes down to you down the gene pool as well that can really impact your relationship with money.
Speaker: So, you know, I didn't grow up poor, but there was still that influence of what came down to me from what was said to me.
Speaker: It was, yeah, it was just interesting with all the stories.
Speaker: Facebook still occasionally asks me whether I went to the same ladies' college as you.
Speaker: It's still occasionally prompted me to say, do you want to write a review or add this to your profile?
Speaker: So it's somehow got you and I confused on occasions.
Speaker: Very, very strange.
Speaker: I mean, the fact that I actually went to a ladies' college probably shocks most people, but yes.
Speaker: I don't know that they'll call it that now.
Speaker: I imagine it's PLC or something.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Lock it up.
Speaker: Who knows?
Speaker: But for me, the kind of that work thing, I am so glad that I've done the work because the upside is just massive, you know, and it's like, that's why I'm a huge fan of continuing to focus on my own personal development, you know, perpetual student, because I'm
Speaker: there's just so much capacity for growth and there's so much more that I want to do whilst not burning out at the same time yeah and I think that yeah have you ever done the five love languages I bet you're acts of service yeah you're always wanting to give to the community so I'd put money on it it's quite interesting I'm really losing my thought on this one this is shocking what is with me
Speaker: You go and say something, I'm like, there's something to say on that and it's gone out of my head and I go off from somewhere else.
Speaker: This is because I know you too well, isn't it?
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: But it is that motivation for me is always the future.
Speaker: You know, that's inevitably where I tend to be looking.
Speaker: What do you think?
Speaker: Why is it?
Speaker: Because I'm...
Speaker: I don't get enough men on this podcast and I find a lot of men sort of do that stiff upper lip, suck it up, all that kind of, you know, and I had Jeff Way on very early.
Speaker: We were talking about that.
Speaker: What do you think it is about you that allows you to be vulnerable that you kind of go, actually, no, I do want to change who I am, so I am going to do some work?
Speaker: Like casting your mind back to when you went and it changed something.
Speaker: I think there's two things.
Speaker: One is,
Speaker: I don't think the acknowledgement in men of I want to do the work and I want to do something different is that uncommon.
Speaker: You know, I think that's really common.
Speaker: Is it?
Speaker: But I think what can happen is there's this sort of filter about do not show vulnerability.
Speaker: Right, okay.
Speaker: And I...
Speaker: So for me, what changed?
Speaker: I spend so much of my time working with other people, both one-on-one and in groups.
Speaker: And often in groups, I'm asking people to be vulnerable.
Speaker: In which case, as a facilitator, I have to role model vulnerability.
Speaker: I can't just stand there at the front and expect other people to engage in an activity that I'm not prepared to.
Speaker: So I guess I've spent a lot of time being vulnerable.
Speaker: The other thing, though, is I'm not trying to be everything to everybody and impress everybody.
Speaker: You know, it's like, because I'm on a hiding to nothing.
Speaker: So there might be people that listen and think, hmm, what a weirdo.
Speaker: It's clearly not a full finished thing.
Speaker: And it's like, that's absolutely fine.
Speaker: Yeah, well, none of us are.
Speaker: No, but I think the...
Speaker: Vulnerability, just because I'm not bothered about what people think, it's so much easier.
Speaker: Well, sorry, within reason.
Speaker: That needs an asterisk.
Speaker: It makes it easier to be vulnerable.
Speaker: And I know it's got a power, you know, the honesty, it's important.
Speaker: And if we look back at everything about emotional labor, if we've got to pretend to be something else and we've got to kid ourselves and kid other people, that comes at a cost.
Speaker: It can be exhausting.
Speaker: So I'd rather just be me and then people can like it.
Speaker: But that goes back to the fact that you do like who you are.
Speaker: Because I mean, I very much remember when I didn't like who I was and there's no way I would have coped with the people not liking me.
Speaker: When you get to that point, you're like, oh, okay.
Speaker: Whatever.
Speaker: There are people I don't like.
Speaker: You know, I mean, it's, you know, it is funny, but I definitely think the mask, you must see it a lot in the corporate environment as well that you work in.
Speaker: The corporate masks that go up as people are fighting to fit in and it's just, yeah, it's so damaging.
Speaker: to them physically as well, isn't it?
Speaker: Because of the mental health as well.
Speaker: Yeah, and tiring for people to do that.
Speaker: So I think sometimes the word authenticity gets overused and bandied around a lot.
Speaker: But yeah, but actually just being able to be who you are, there's so much for that so that we can be who we are and we can accept other people and see the strengths and the value and the power that they bring.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's not too much to ask, is it?
Speaker: No, it is funny because it's been such a long journey for me because obviously my start was interesting.
Speaker: And I did actually realise that I've got goofier in the last year specifically, and I'm just not caring who's hearing it.
Speaker: And it's just like if somebody doesn't like me being goofy, then bye.
Speaker: And I mean friends, like just to friends.
Speaker: I'm just being much more who I genuinely am, and it's just quite liberating.
Speaker: It's like,
Speaker: Well, we're getting there.
Speaker: Like you said, work in progress.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And I'm learning more all the time.
Speaker: Like my academic research is focused on hope.
Speaker: And I am just, again, pardon?
Speaker: Why hope?
Speaker: What made you choose hope?
Speaker: I mean, I know the answer, but for the podcast.
Speaker: Because I've absolutely fallen in love with the subject of hope.
Speaker: So we kind of, we bandy the word around a lot, like, you know, I hope this happens.
Speaker: I hope you're okay.
Speaker: I hope this.
Speaker: So it's kind of in common usage.
Speaker: It's a sort of a wishful thinking or even a naive optimism.
Speaker: But hope in psychology is a really specific thing.
Speaker: It's about a belief in a better future.
Speaker: You know, it's about believing that the future is going to be better than the present, you know, either personally or around us.
Speaker: And it's about being able to see the path and knowing that you can do what you need to do to make it so.
Speaker: And lots of people have not got nearly enough hope for the future.
Speaker: And one of the, sorry, long answer to why I hope.
Speaker: And then one of the other challenges is that when you look at this in an organizational context,
Speaker: When leaders attempt to help other people have hope, they go to stupid places, like they either manage them badly or they engage in toxic positivity, you know, because they believe that we need to focus on the positive, but not toxic positivity and overdoing it.
Speaker: So why hope is, I think it's a really empowering lens to view the world and ourselves through.
Speaker: And it's a really empowering way of focusing on a better future and uncovering the journey.
Speaker: And I've just absolutely fallen in love with it as a research topic.
Speaker: And the deeper I've been diving, it's just the more I enjoy it and the more I've learned personally as well.
Speaker: So actually, that's been a real part of my growth as well.
Speaker: Some of my own research as well, which is really enjoyable.
Speaker: Can you share an example without giving your research away where you've kind of gone, oh, like,
Speaker: Yeah, well, I could probably share that.
Speaker: Without giving you research away.
Speaker: No, no, no.
Speaker: Well, I'm going to be giving my research away.
Speaker: Not yet.
Speaker: I'm applying this to, so I've committed to indoor cycle the height of Everest in a day.
Speaker: yes to raise money for justice oh in a day in a day right okay you really are crazy admitted to this when i broke my ankle three years ago and i'm still training um the the challenge itself will probably take me i reckon 17 or 18 hours on the bike in the day so it's the equivalent of running like four back-to-back
Speaker: marathons in a day and you've met me in person plenty of times i am not in that kind of shape and i've probably never been in that kind of shape so yet so this is a long-term training thing so i am applying my own hope research to my everesting journey and so the elements of it are about really having a crystal clear focus on what you want and
Speaker: having a real idea of what you can do to make it a reality, but also not just focusing on the positive, also having a real openness to what's going to go wrong.
Speaker: What's going to trip me up?
Speaker: What are the problems that are either going to come at me externally?
Speaker: Like last year, it was traveling too much and not being at home and near the bike.
Speaker: And also, what are the problems that are going to trip me up internally?
Speaker: So, you know, again, to be vulnerable, I'll reveal one of mine.
Speaker: If I was traveling for a couple of weeks and I did absolutely rubbish on exercise and I'd eaten in hotels and eaten junk for two weeks, I'm kind of almost like, oh, I should give up.
Speaker: I can't do this.
Speaker: And I know that, you know, that's one of the areas where I can trip myself up.
Speaker: And so it's about... So much of that is also that what's in the food that you're then eating as well, because when you're at home, you can eat healthier food and yeah.
Speaker: So it's about this real positive expectation from the future, a massive focus on being resourceful, you know, keeping an eye on your own agency, doing what you can do, doing the work, but also embracing the negative and working to overcome it.
Speaker: Well, it's more realistic about the negative, isn't it?
Speaker: It's like, okay, at the 17th hour, I'm likely to not be enjoying this very much.
Speaker: So what can I do?
Speaker: What, you know, and putting strategies in place.
Speaker: Rather than, yeah, I see what you mean.
Speaker: I take it with the toxic positivity you're just ignoring.
Speaker: The negatives?
Speaker: Is that the destructive side of it?
Speaker: When you see cultures with toxic positivity, and it's really interesting, it seems to come from both ends.
Speaker: Toxic positivity can be the preserve of a toxic manager who is narcissistic and doesn't want to hear anything negative.
Speaker: So you can get it at kind of that problematic end, but you can also get toxic positivity from really well-meaning managers.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: who want to keep people focused on a better future.
Speaker: So you can get toxic positivity coming for kind of both good and bad reasons.
Speaker: And I'm interested, I've seen it recently where some, there's been quite a public fallout on some boards where they've been talking about, you know, should we focus on the positive or should we focus on the negative?
Speaker: And my answer is yes, actually, you need to do both in the right context.
Speaker: And so, yeah, so that, so.
Speaker: Well, hence, I guess that's where the strengths come in, isn't it?
Speaker: Because if you focus on the two and have we got the right people working on the right bit, because maybe Katrina should work on that and Ian should work on this.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And then you, yeah.
Speaker: But then that would take that vulnerability again of being honest about the work and honest about who's got what strengths and,
Speaker: Then corporate masks come into play.
Speaker: Oh, it's complicated.
Speaker: Yeah, but again, but that's one of the reasons I love doing the strengths-based work is often what we'll do is I'll do individual development with people, but in a team.
Speaker: So you might have a group of 10 or 12 people that work really closely together and we'll do a session on individual strengths and individual development.
Speaker: But they'll do it as a team.
Speaker: They'll do it with each other.
Speaker: And it's a real, you can see the penny drop in people.
Speaker: One of the principles we sometimes talk about in strengths is that we say none of us see other people as they truly are.
Speaker: Rather, we view them through the lens of the filter of who we are.
Speaker: So, you know, kind of fiercely competitive, go getting positive salesperson that wants to, you know, win at all costs and, you know, get on with it.
Speaker: And if you're quiet, reflective, thoughtful, want to think about what might go wrong,
Speaker: there's a danger that I could look at you and write you off.
Speaker: Whereas actually all those strengths that you need that I haven't got are what I need.
Speaker: And so that's why we often do strengths with a team because if you can get people to start to look at the people around them and value them for who they are instead of judge the difference, that's a game changer for them.
Speaker: And I remember...
Speaker: Filling it out for you before coming on your podcast many minutes ago, which would be completely different now because we did it, I think, about five days before the world shut down.
Speaker: So I listened back to it and I was like, I don't do that anymore.
Speaker: I don't do that anymore.
Speaker: I don't do that anymore.
Speaker: I don't do that.
Speaker: Actually, in fact, I don't do anything that I did back then because the whole lot went to shit.
Speaker: But anyway, there was no way you could gain that.
Speaker: that either you know sometimes you can you can tell and there was no way I could do anything but tell the truth on it that's I thought was really impressive so you genuinely come up with the right result that's one of the reasons I like CliftonStrends you know and it's not everything it's not the whole answer to everything but it's valid and reliable and it provides a really empowering lens for people so yeah and I still work on my strengths every single week yeah it's kind of I'm on an ongoing mission to practice what I preach
Speaker: Yeah, well, you have to because it's livelihood.
Speaker: So we've got research into hope.
Speaker: What's the book about then?
Speaker: And what prompted you to write a book other than practically everyone you know has written one in our space?
Speaker: Yeah, I was feeling really left out.
Speaker: I was feeling left out.
Speaker: I was really, my USP was I've never written a book.
Speaker: You know, it's becoming a real point to differentiation and standout.
Speaker: It is so weird, isn't it?
Speaker: I think everybody's got one because our little network has it.
Speaker: And of course they don't.
Speaker: And I've had the privilege to write chapters in a couple of books and to be mentioned in a few books as well.
Speaker: And confession, I don't think I've ever said this before, but I'm beginning to regret it already.
Speaker: I've got a little section of my bookshelf, which are books that I feature in.
Speaker: And it means a lot to me.
Speaker: And the thought of actually having my book in that section means a lot to me.
Speaker: Well, I will make sure that you get a copy of The Damage of Words when it is published, obviously, because you have a whole chapter in that.
Speaker: It will have private play.
Speaker: That's my spiritual shelf.
Speaker: And then the one above is everybody I know's books that they've written and a few randoms thrown in.
Speaker: Well, I will be contributing to that as well.
Speaker: You'll be in one of those probably.
Speaker: Excellent.
Speaker: So without it sounding too grandiose, part of it is about legacy, you know, and part of it is about scale.
Speaker: You know, really fortunate to do the work I get to do.
Speaker: But coming towards my late 50s, you know, got an eye on the future.
Speaker: So part of it is about legacy and about scaling that impact.
Speaker: The book is called Hope is a Strategy.
Speaker: And that's because people all the time say, well, hope isn't a strategy because they're really confused about what hope actually is.
Speaker: And it's a leadership book.
Speaker: aimed at helping leaders to genuinely help people around them to find hope for themselves.
Speaker: And I deliberately don't say give hope because I don't believe you can truly give hope, but you can help people find it.
Speaker: So, yeah, it's been in me for a long time, I think, and it's just been a sort of... I know that feeling.
Speaker: And I did a proposal... It needs to be out of the body now.
Speaker: Exactly that.
Speaker: Yeah, I know that feeling.
Speaker: Let me be really honest here.
Speaker: So I'd followed Alison Jones at Practical Inspiration Publishing for a while on social media.
Speaker: I know Alison.
Speaker: And Alison was running a writing workshop at Gladstone's Library in Wales, which is just an hour's drive from here.
Speaker: And I did confess this on the day.
Speaker: I went to that one-day workshop and
Speaker: And I find writing really, really hard.
Speaker: So my aim was to, at the end of the day, say, I've given it my best shot.
Speaker: This is not for me.
Speaker: And I can give up legitimately having known that it's just too hard and I can never do it.
Speaker: And Alison managed to completely mess things up by helping me to find my writer within me, mess it up in a really positive way.
Speaker: And yeah, that workshop was really good.
Speaker: And then took part in one of the proposal challenges as well.
Speaker: And since then, yeah, just finding the process hard, but really, really hard.
Speaker: enjoying it and yeah and thankful you know it's only recently now I'm starting to just my hours to create some space for it because I'm not great at writing in like 35 minutes in between coaching sessions you know I need the headspace to really yeah to get into it so no I totally understand that well I'm in the middle of formatting out my second business book so that'll have been three so yeah no I hear you
Speaker: Now, if people would love to connect with you, talk to you more, where would you like me to direct them?
Speaker: LinkedIn, probably the best place to always find me and where I'm, shall I say, where I'm least unresponsive.
Speaker: It's like the, sorry, private joke.
Speaker: I've got you on WhatsApp, so I'm fine.
Speaker: One of the challenges is with last year just being so stupidly busy, I know it was just really, really slow to reply to messages.
Speaker: So that's why I qualify it with them.
Speaker: I'm probably least unresponsive on LinkedIn, but that's, now I've got a bit of margin, it's better.
Speaker: I've just written a whole paragraph about how we have these mobile phones within reach and we don't reply to people.
Speaker: Like literally this technology should make life easier to communicate.
Speaker: It's made it harder.
Speaker: And it's just made it harder.
Speaker: It's just too many channels all at once and everyone's like, I'll get back to that.
Speaker: And then you just don't.
Speaker: It's interesting that's,
Speaker: again, being a little project for me and based on a book I know somebody else is writing, which I won't mention now.
Speaker: Let me disconnect.
Speaker: I'm going to hear.
Speaker: But I've been deliberately turning off loads of notifications, checking up profiles at different times.
Speaker: And then I'm just using a new app.
Speaker: You said I've already got an app for everything.
Speaker: You have.
Speaker: Which gives me a unified inbox.
Speaker: So I've got one inbox that has got LinkedIn, WhatsApp,
Speaker: Instagram, all of my messages in one inbox, and I've got it set to show me unread messages only.
Speaker: So instead of having like six or seven different messes, I've got one place I can go.
Speaker: And it's like, right, there's the list.
Speaker: Because daft as it sounds, I like email, you know, because I like an inbox that...
Speaker: yeah i know i will deal with stuff um yeah i'm like that and then it's easier to keep track of it all yeah absolutely there we go so yeah linkedin no it's fine it's a good answer actually and i'm now i want to know what the app is anyway we'll talk about that in a minute thank you and i really appreciate you coming and chatting thank you for tuning in to beyond the damage of words how brave how vulnerable
Speaker: all to inspire listeners like you to take a step or inspire others to take a step.
Speaker: Imagine what healing we could create if we normalize this conversation.
Speaker: So please pass this on and of course, subscribe so we can do just that.
Speaker: Until next time, thank you.
