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S1E07 | One Great Question: The one question that changed how I communicate
17 Plays4 months ago
Most leaders think profit comes from speed. This episode argues the opposite.
In this conversation, we unpack a simple but demanding idea: the real profit is found in the pause. When leaders slow down long enough to ask what is unclear, anxiety drops and performance improves. When they do not, lazy language creates confusion, scattered effort, and quiet burnout.
Through stories of broken friendships, difficult endings, missed expectations, and everyday workplace moments, this episode shows how a lack of clarity creates open loops that drain energy for years. We explore why people confuse kindness with comfort, why brutal honesty is often lazy honesty, and how clear language sets boundaries without tearing people down.
This is an episode about leadership, relationships, and responsibility. If you want better results, healthier teams, and fewer unresolved tensions, it starts with slowing down and choosing clarity.
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Transcript
Connecting Through Clarity
00:00:00
Speaker
thing that I try and help executives and managers think about is your profit is in the pause. Your ability to slow down and genuinely connect with somebody and go, what's unclear right now that's creating anxiety for you? For most companies, we have very lazy language that creates really ambiguous and anxiety-ridden cultures. so you've got lazy questions that lead to the anxious cultures that lead to either you know lackluster or sort of scattered results. If we could take all of that energy and point it towards one thing, one goal, or one you know mission, you're gonna just go farther. Yeah, because that open loop, to me, to use like very simple language, to be clear is to be kind, and to be unclear is to be unkind.
00:00:48
Speaker
So Carl, ah a few years ago, had a friend who no longer wanted to be my friend. And ah and i I was like, hey, man, you know, and I don't really understand what happened we just like stopped talking. You know, this happens, I think, in and adulthood.
00:01:09
Speaker
Get busy with kids in school. and Totally. Yeah. Whatever. yeah But this felt different. right on I didn't know. Oh. Yeah. It felt different. Like it felt like yeah you ever just drift from somebody and you're not like, it was it me? Was it you?
00:01:24
Speaker
Is this over? Right. Like, where do we stand? The old DTR. The old DTR with a friend. With a guy. The body relationship. Which was equally awkward, more awkward, less awkward. i don't know. It's pretty awkward. Yeah. And I said, um you know, can can we get together and talk about this?
00:01:43
Speaker
And, I feel confused. And he said, I'm fine with you being confused. And um i don't need to talk. And the fact that you need to talk shows me that, you know, things are the way they are for a reason, which made no sense to me.
00:01:59
Speaker
yeah I'm also sitting here unclear as to what that's supposed to mean. And I'm sure it made sense to him. And and that was it. you know Since then, we've seen each other handful of times and cordial to one another. And I realized, oh, like that's it. like That was it. That's all the catharsis that I get.
The Pain of Ambiguity
00:02:15
Speaker
Now, as a writer, as a storyteller, as somebody who cares about drama and clarity, somebody who, you know, um when I'm working on a piece of writing, if if this piece doesn't connect to that piece, if there's not a clear segue or transition, it doesn't work for me. It breaks my brain. I've got to have everything sort of, you know, lined up.
00:02:34
Speaker
That was hard. You know, was hard to... accepts the lack of resolution. I want closure. I want clarity. um you know like I want to know where I stand with somebody. I want them to know you know where I stand with them. And I don't think I'm alone in that. to want to know um where they stand with somebody else, what is expected of them. And oftentimes, people are not as clear with each other, especially when there's some sort of conflict as they need to be.
00:03:11
Speaker
So for you, when that happened with your friend and now as a writer, you've got this open loop. Do you find yourself ruminating over it? Do you find like when you're in places that, oh, I used to go hang out with this friend or we used to share this thing.
Reality vs. Fiction in Closure
00:03:25
Speaker
And then it's almost like kind of a repeat offender because it's almost like I can't close the loop and now it keeps on reopening itself in strange places.
00:03:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, less now than, you know, a few years ago when it happened. ah But this was a very close friend. And to not know why was difficult. and And yeah, there there were sort of ruminations.
00:03:47
Speaker
Now, since seeing them a couple of times, I always think as as i think of my life as a movie, you know, sometimes to a detriment, Like there's going to be what I think of as like a Goodwill hunting moment.
00:04:00
Speaker
And who who plays you in this movie? This actor is playing Jeff Goyne. I mean, obviously Matt Damon. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, Matt's a little longer in the tooth now. i didn't know if Matt's still the god. No, i mean 20-year-old Matt Demeter.
00:04:13
Speaker
When in reality, know yeah I'm more of a Robin Williams kind of character, I think. But I take it too. ah But i think of I think of, you know, Good Will Hunting moment is like a two-minute scene in the movie where after three therapy sessions, you're crying in Robin Williams' arms and he's going, it's not your fault.
00:04:31
Speaker
And all is well, like, over. Yeah, chasing the girls he across the country. yeah Yeah, yes, that's right. and um And like that's like, a lot of life isn't that way, where you're like, yearning for that catharsis where you want to make meaning out of whatever this conflict was. And it's just not there, you know?
00:04:51
Speaker
And I think this has to be one of the largest suffering points for us as humans, whether it's personally or professionally, because that open loop to me, to use, ah you know, like very simple language, is supremely unkind.
Communication as Kindness
00:05:06
Speaker
Like there's a lack of kindness in what happened to you in that moment that I don't know this other person, I don't know what happened in that space. But I do have this basic principle that we talk about in my house here where I live with my family. I also talk about it in the companies that I help or even the companies that I own.
00:05:25
Speaker
To be clear is to be kind and to be unclear is to be unkind. And I think whether intentional or unintentional, what this other person did when you go, this is unclear to me and for them to go, that does not bother me.
00:05:42
Speaker
Right. Is a supreme act of unkindness. I think, yes. and And I've processed that myself and, um, And I think this is one of the challenges of being an adult is is interacting with people who don't necessarily share your values. From my perspective, I felt the same way. I'm like, I just need a little bit of help here understanding this.
00:06:04
Speaker
I've asked it of other friends before to mixed results. And I find that a lot of people are uncomfortable with being clear.
Balancing Clarity and Kindness
00:06:12
Speaker
And they conflate kindness with comfort, meaning I am being kind. I'm being nice to you. I'm saying things that don't make me feel uncomfortable saying them and don't make you uncomfortable hearing them. But the end of it is confusion where you need more...
00:06:30
Speaker
conversation. you know You need more follow-up. Now, I've been on the other side of this exchange where I'm the one ending a relationship, breaking up with somebody, saying we can't do business together anymore, and they don't understand. I've seen i've seen that look of shock on somebody else and and done my best to try to explain it. I had this happen recently where I was working with a client and i realized, oh, we're just not a good fit. don't want to spend more time doing this.
00:06:55
Speaker
And I said, hey, i I don't think this is going to be a good fit. I'm going to get refund your money. We're just going to go separate ways. It's all good. And this person said, can you give me two minutes and just help me understand how you got to this point?
00:07:06
Speaker
And I loved the clarity of that question, actually. and And it's like, oh, this person needs something. i had to go. I realized that this is a waste of my time. I don't want to be here. But I also realized I had an opportunity to go, no I'm out.
00:07:18
Speaker
Or, yeah, I can do that for two minutes and I can do my best to explain to you why this doesn't work for me. And I want to take ownership of that without putting any of that on you, but also letting you know my decision is
The Power of Curiosity
00:07:30
Speaker
made. Yeah. And and I think for people who struggle with having a conversation that clear of even going, hey, I'm not going to ghost you. actually say this is not good. Right. Let's move on.
00:07:38
Speaker
It's because, again, the whole point of this podcast, our conversations, the book that we're writing, the work that I'm doing in the world is if we could be more curious, the weight of that gets so much more manageable. Yeah.
00:07:50
Speaker
Because my question would be, if I wanted to end a relationship with somebody else and I go, i I can't just say that and I'm not also just going to ghost them, so how do I get to this clarity without being hurtful? My favorite question around this sort of space is going, hey, what up until now, what did you think the win was for us?
00:08:10
Speaker
Because I think if this person who said, I don't care about your lack of clarity... had gone, okay, I know what I think, and I presume to know what you think, and so I'm just gonna opt out, had just gone, hey, I know you're asking the question about what's our relationship, what do you think the win is for us?
00:08:26
Speaker
And then you start to give all of this data, right? Well, I thought it was this, this, and this, and you're like, I don't actually want slash need any of those things during the season of my life. And I appreciate you sharing the win, but I can't be the person to help you get that win anymore. And I think this is the best for both of us. In much the same way that your conversation with the client, they went, hey, can you help me understand? They're basically saying, well, what was the win and what is it now that I don't understand the difference between what it used to be and what it is currently? And I think that little bit of curiosity is what at least, you know, doesn't burn a bridge and doesn't have somebody sitting there with an open loop, really self-examining themselves going, well, well, it doesn't make sense to me why this ended. And now I'm stuck in a prison of my unmaking going, am I at fault? Am I the reason this doesn't make sense?
Busyness and Boundaries
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah, I did. I mean, the third example would be, um it was 2020. I was trying to have lunch with this person. um She'd been very obliging.
00:09:25
Speaker
i it was 2020. I was running around with my hair on fire, trying to be productive. At a time of a ginger joke or it was actually on file. Trying to be productive when my, when it was hard to be productive. i don't know what that was like for you, but like summer of 2020, it was like, there were no real obligations and I could work every day for 12 hours a day or like do nothing, nothing you know? And I would kind of vacillate between those two extremes, you know, all meetings were canceled. All in-person stuff was canceled. And I was just sort of like,
00:10:00
Speaker
What am I supposed to do? So I would try to fill you know my days with all kinds of frenetic activity. But somewhere around this time, I don't know, when... People were still social distancing, but like something had opened back up. So sometime in 2020, maybe it was in the fall, I was trying to have lunch with this person, just a colleague, friend, um and stuff kept coming up, um which really meant I wasn't like planning very well. And so I would cancel and reschedule. And I did this two, going on three times.
00:10:31
Speaker
And the third time I did this, this person was like, um no, I can't do that. i was like, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, I did the like typical over busy thing. that people I'm so sorry. Things are crazy. You know, it's my fault. lot Like just shamed myself, over apologized. She was very like composed.
00:10:49
Speaker
She said, no, it's OK. I understand. And out of respect for myself, i I can't keep putting myself in this position. I'm sure things are i busy for you right now.
00:11:00
Speaker
I'm not saying I would never get together with you again, um but, you know, not right now. And what was really interesting, i mean, that was hard to hear on one level.
00:11:12
Speaker
Like I had failed, you know, I'd failed to meet a commitment multiple times. yeah But I found the clarity of her going, this doesn't work for me.
00:11:25
Speaker
So loving. Like, oh, yeah, I made a mistake. Never blamed me, didn't shame me. And also didn't do this thing that I think we do a lot in like,
00:11:37
Speaker
busyness culture where it's like, no, no, no, it's just me. It's me. It's not you. I just can't do it. And it's fine. It's fine. It's like, no, like I'm tired of you rescheduling on me last minute. It happened like three weeks in a row. And last time she was like, I just can't do this right now. You know, I would be disrespecting myself and I don't like that.
00:11:56
Speaker
And I never forgot that. I mean, there's kind of two levels of that. One she she let me down in a way that didn't tear me down, but gave me some insight on myself. Like, oh, yeah, I shouldn't have done that. And I did. And now I have to live with the consequence of not being able to connect with this person right now.
00:12:19
Speaker
And I really do. I should really learn from that. Like, so it was gracious. ah But then it also modeled for me what what boundaries are and why you need
Clarity in Professional Growth
00:12:29
Speaker
them. And i don't know, four, almost five years later,
00:12:33
Speaker
I have met multiple situations in my life since then where i realized if I continue to put myself into this particular situation, I don't respect that person. So this actually has very little, maybe even nothing to do with you.
00:12:47
Speaker
i just can't do that. And I don't need you to understand, agree or whatever, but I will do my best to help you. Like, I'll explain it to you. And I love your phrase, she let you down without tearing you down. Yeah.
00:13:01
Speaker
um In our work, we talk about this idea of my role in clarifying is not to call you out, but to call you up. Because in our culture, were like oh, you got called out, or oh, they're going to shame you, or, you know. And it's like, no, no, no. I see a better version of you. And like you said, whatever we're doing right now is not creating the best version of you. And so if I'm going to help you find the best version of you, because I think that that person already exists. We're just chiseling away the outside thing to reveal who you really are.
00:13:31
Speaker
And this current action doesn't align with that. And so my job here is to say, oh, i I see the best version of you over there. And it might be in six months when you have more bandwidth. But us doing this right now is not moving towards that best version of you. Right. And so let's pull away some. And in the work, you know what I notice bosses and employers and managers will do is when they meet with somebody, it's this very kind of rushed, hey, what do you need? Or hey, you are you good? And they're asking these massive questions that actually don't promote clarity. It actually promotes a lot of anxiety because they're going, My job doesn't make sense. Your question doesn't make sense. I don't know if any of this makes sense right now. And it just adds a metric ton of anxiety. And so that's why we talk about to be clear is to be kind, because that's a really unkind thing to do. Somebody else is just to crank their anxiety to 11. Right. Especially, you know, and I would say it's really unkind unintentionally. Most people are not going around going,
00:14:28
Speaker
Let me ask a terrible question that's going to make you super anxious. You're just going, I'm moving fast, you're moving fast. And so as we move fast ah you know across each other, there's more scraping than synergy.
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's an effect of busyness, you know, and I don't have the time to explain to you why this is happening. You just need to get on board. If you can't get on board, see you later. and And this is why i actually had this this mo this morning with ah with an executive that I was coaching.
00:14:56
Speaker
Having a really hard time this morning, they were. And so I just sat with it. We're on a Zoom. It's not in person. And by the way, it's awkward to sit with somebody who is busy trying to cry,
00:15:09
Speaker
800 miles away from you and just hold space. And it's weird, the things you get good at. And I'd never thought I'd be like, I'll be good at Co-Zoom. Co-Zoom cries. Co-Zoom cries. But, you know, the pandemic and lots of other things will be, that will do strange thing to your talent set. But so I was just sitting with this person. I'm saying, hey, I'm deeply privileged that you would allow yourself to feel this with me.
00:15:33
Speaker
So they're busy having a moment, feeling all of their feelings. And in the midst of this, what I came to realize is this person was having to move so fast.
00:15:45
Speaker
that they couldn't even catalog why they felt the way they felt. Yeah. And I said, Harry, you know, hey, to use a therapy term, can you name it? Whatever the root of this thing is, can you name it? And they said, no.
00:15:57
Speaker
And I gave them this phrase. I said, the power is in the paws. So power is in the p a u s e the P-A-U-S-E, the paws. Not like the cat paws. Not like kind of cat paws. Oh, there's some power in that little doggy paws. You know, my dog that tried to eat you earlier. There's some power there.
00:16:13
Speaker
um And also in businesses, the thing that I try and help executives and managers think about is your profit is in the pause. And again, not profit like Muhammad, P-R-O-F-I-T. Your profit is in the pause. Your ability to slow down and genuinely connect with somebody and go, what's unclear right now that's creating anxiety for you?
00:16:32
Speaker
That language shapes a very different culture because for most companies, we have very lazy language that creates really ambiguous and anxiety-ridden cultures. And, you know, I don't want that for the world, but it'll keep me employed until long after I'm dead.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah, and and I would say ah it creates lackluster results more often than not. 100%. So you've got lazy questions that lead to an anxious cultures that lead to either you know lackluster or sort of scattered results. And if we could take all of that energy...
00:17:03
Speaker
and point it towards one thing, one goal, or one, you know, mission, you're gonna just go farther. Yeah. and ah And listen, I have lots of empathy. I've been this person. I've been the new guy at the company, I've been in management, and then I've been an executive in C-suite spaces.
00:17:19
Speaker
And I understand the tyranny of the urgent and the demand of this thing. But my encouragement could be, like, just...
Tools for Clarity
00:17:27
Speaker
And this is why we've got this clear language tool. If you can, instead of asking, hey, everything good? Are you clear? You know, whatever. Again, it's inspiring these 40,000 negative repetitive thoughts.
00:17:38
Speaker
And instead go, hey, around this particular task, again, great specificity. Do you currently feel comfortable, stuck, stressed, or growing? And so all of a sudden now we have a matrix. They can do a SWOT analysis. We know exactly where they are, where we want to go.
00:17:52
Speaker
But in that moment, I've taken it from this very vague, huge conversation to you good, which has no place to go. It's just very unclear. And also puts a lot of responsibility on me like, yeah hey, if you're not good, that needs to be you and your problem. And now all of a sudden, hey, we're together. Currently, are you feeling comfortable, stuck, stressed, or growing around this thing. Now there feels like there's more partnership and it's hyper directive. Because the first question somebody's gonna ask is, I don't know what those mean. And then in the tool, we can plot it out and be like, oh, it means this and this and this. And so all of a sudden there's a data point and a starting point that clarifies things, which we found is, again, it's a great kindness that creates what you're talking about.
00:18:32
Speaker
better, less scattered results. And that's why we say the profit is in the pause. Like if, if you want greater profit, there have to be these moments of intentional pause with intentional language that creates better results. Why? Because By pausing, you're able to kind of see what the situation is and then make the next right move that much more productive and clear. Yeah. Yeah. It's the the ability to to stop and go, what's the win? Because to your earlier illustration with your friend, it kind of ghosted, nothing was happening. And it wasn't until you paused and said, hold on, why is this? And they said, hey, would you mind pausing with me? And they went...
00:19:12
Speaker
No. Right. That all of a sudden, at least that data point gave you the clarity that this is not a space I should spend continual energy long. Yeah. But had you kept on not having the conversation, it would have been this weird nagging thing that would just always sat around. And eventually when you did pause, it was so long ago that you're like, I don't even know. Is that them? Was that me? You know, there's no possibility of growth. So, okay, let me just break this down, make sure this is clear. So we're talking about conflict, which is like at some point, somebody that you work with, love, know,
00:19:44
Speaker
You're going to be X and they're going to be Y. You're going to be here and they're going be there. There's going to be something that maybe is missed. You're going miss each other at some You can use it in conflict, but we start even at a more basic level. It's going, you have conflict in yourself not knowing what is required of you. It's not clear what the win is.
00:20:02
Speaker
And so around a specific responsibility, so let's go back to the social media manager. You're saying, hey, Carl, I'd like you to post on Instagram by Friday, and today is Wednesday. Okay.
00:20:12
Speaker
and i'm and you're going, hey, around that responsibility right now, are you good? Again, it's too big. Like there are too many pieces involved. Even with a responsibility that small, instead we would say, hey, are you comfortable, stuck, stressed, or growing? And on the matrix, it lets me know, do you have the training and resources available to you to actually do the job? And do you understand the value and the purpose and the urgency of this particular task?
00:20:37
Speaker
And when both of those things are up and to the right, all of a sudden I'm growing. But when I'm not trained or resourced, or I don't understand why it's valuable, all of a sudden I'm just stuck. And so now it gives us a data point on actual task.
00:20:48
Speaker
But you can escalate that from something as simple as a social media post on Friday, all the way to, hey, we have conflict. Now let's pause long enough to figure out where where did that originate? So you can use it you know in a larger context thing, but we tell them, we want you to use this in like low stakes areas first before you're like, hey, our relationship, will this fix it? Okay, that's a big ask for a new tool. We'd rather you just go, i don't really have great clarity on this social media posting.
00:21:16
Speaker
Well, when's the last time you had a seven minute sync or a standup meeting with this person and just go, hey, currently I'm stuck. Well, what does that mean? I don't have the training or resources. Nobody gave me the login or the laptop. And also you asked for this post, but it doesn't seem to be aligned with any of our goals for the next quarter. I don't understand the value.
00:21:34
Speaker
Oh, okay. So we've used the clear language tool now to go, this is where I currently am around the task. And this is how I progress forward. Right. so So, you know, the underlying question is, does this make sense? And the reality is most people are being asked to do things on a daily basis that they don't fully understand and don't feel like they have the space to eat space or time to even ask.
00:21:57
Speaker
what exactly am I supposed to be doing? 100%. So the the onus is on the leader to give them sort of a spectrum of, you know, from stuck to, what was it? Yes, from comfortable, stuck, stressed, or growing. And I would say the onus of leadership is...
00:22:14
Speaker
everybody's, right? Because you can lead yourself, you can be led by a manager, you can even lead a manager. So I always look at these things not as monologues, but as dialogues. And so if you feel stuck, you can use the tool now to go, hey, I need these two things from you. I need either resourcing or understanding.
00:22:30
Speaker
In the same way management to go, this person feels like they're underperforming or they're hiding somewhere in the culture. Let me go clarify. Let me go ask, hey, this is the win for me. What part of that is not doable currently for you based on Either you don't have the training or you don't understand the value. Where are we currently when it comes to the clarity on the necessity of this task?
00:22:50
Speaker
Problem is confusion. Solution slash tool is clarity. Clear language. Clear language. Being clear. And is it, i mean, is it ever unkind to be too clear?
00:23:02
Speaker
Is it ever unkind to be too clear? I don't know that in 2024, it's actually possible to be too clear. Why is that? We're moving too fast. um The most recent data shows, and you know I'll ask you the question before i you know share what I think the answer is based on current research.
00:23:25
Speaker
If I were gonna ask you, how many times do i have to share something, communicate something, clarify something, before you understand it to the degree that I do. How many times do you think that is? I mean, ah the conventional knowledge, being a marketing guy is is seven. you know I've heard up to 14 and beyond, but yeah something in that range. Yeah, for sure. Up until about 2018, 2020, the conventional wisdom said seven times, I have to communicate something. I have to clarify it. I have to be too clear before you get it to the degree I do.
00:23:56
Speaker
The common math now is 13. And that happened in four years? Yeah. So, I mean, that's only going to expeditiously get worse. There's just more things. There's more things. There's more white noise. There's more general noise. There's just more anxiety.
00:24:10
Speaker
And so if I am on a mission and one of my nicknames of the company is I'm an anxiety assassin, that's what we call our consultants. I'm there to anxiety the assassin assassinate the anxiety brought on by too many assignments with too much noise and not enough information and not enough pauses in what we're doing. So I don't know practically that a human can be too kind. I
Honesty with Empathy
00:24:33
Speaker
think they can be brutal. so it was fascinating when I lived in New England for a while, our new friends would be like, hey, don't write us off.
00:24:41
Speaker
We're just brutally honest. And what was funny is this was happening in a spiritual context. And I was like, you know, your spiritual, you know, kind of guide, there's no brutality in that person, in that divinity. And so I don't think you can actually be, I don't think honesty requires brutality. And I think that's what sometimes is confused. It's like, well, I'm just being brutally honest.
00:25:03
Speaker
Well, those two things are not mutually requisite. I don't have to be brutal to also be clear. And I think to your earlier point, that's where we get lost a little bit. It's like, I can be clear while still creating a space of curiosity of going, hey, we're going to get to this clarity together. And this is also when we're using the conflict tool from earlier, right? Where we're saying, I'm acknowledging it's difficult. I'm affirming your effort to get us to the same page. And then I'm going to ask you, what's the win? I can ask questions, i can be curious towards the direction of clarity without having to assassinate somebody else's character um or assume that they're idiotic and I'm the only person that can bring clarity to the moment.
00:25:43
Speaker
Brutal honesty seems to be expediency. You're just moving quickly and kind of lazy. yeah it It is sort of held up as a virtue. yeah Like I'm brutally honest. It's like you could just be honest right without the brutality. You could just be clear. That doesn't require you to you know obfuscate or ah walk on eggshells. It just requires you to, and it doesn't mean you don't have to like punch somebody in the nose with your words either.
00:26:12
Speaker
Yeah. And I think for me, the the last idea around this is, if I can imagine the other person as their eight-year-old self, I don't want to be brutal to them. Right, yeah. Like, this is another inquisitive little human running around on this rock, like I am.
00:26:25
Speaker
And if I can walk into that meeting going, Whatever you're showing up as now is a response to fear or hurt or scarcity. It's a fight, flight, or freeze mechanism. But if I can imagine you walking in as a scared eight-year-old going, this doesn't make sense. Can you help me make the world make sense? Yeah, I'm all in
Aligning Goals in Conversations
00:26:43
Speaker
to help you do that. And then we get curious and then we can find the truth somewhere in the midst of all that without being brutal to each other.
00:26:49
Speaker
So two questions. One is, what do you do if you're the person bringing clarity and the person receiving it doesn't like it? They feel like you're being brutal. They feel like you're being mean or aggressive or two pointed.
00:27:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think the times that I've encountered that, I just kind of go back to, hey, I don't want you to feel that way. Can you tell me what you think the win from this conversation is? Because it typically means our wins are not aligned. If I'm trying to get help them with their job, but they were trying to feel something,
00:27:22
Speaker
Oh, I tried to fix it while you were trying to feel it. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, the other question is, what do you do if you're in the situation that I was in where you want clarity, you're asking for it, it doesn't make sense, And it's not being given. Because I imagine, you know, whether this is friendship, romantic relationship, obviously work thing where your boss or manager is asking you to do something and doesn't want to explain it, which I think happens often, as I'm sure you have experienced and are aware. And they're not going to slow. Just figure out, man. Just figure out. Figure it out. Figure it out. Figure it out. Figure it out.
00:28:02
Speaker
What do you call that? Fit foe? Fit foe. Figure it out. Uh-huh. What do you do? Like, what are you do when you're not getting the clarity that you need? ah Short of quitting. of Sure, yeah, but I mean, quitting is an option. And and so i i I typically like to look at things in rules of three. That is, again, a simple human.
00:28:18
Speaker
So the first time I'm going, hey, i'm I would genuinely, and I use the word genuinely a lot because it's disarming. hey, I'm genuinely trying to be helpful here and I apologize if this isn't coming off, but I genuinely think I need your help to get to the root of this thing that is unclear to me.
00:28:35
Speaker
So ah pray i'll I'll pose that to the person that I'm trying to get. And then you go, okay, Carl, they're still not giving it to you. then what I will do is i will um I will find somebody else who can help me have that conversation, who maybe has more capital with them. So in the issue of your friend, if there was another mutual friend, be like, hey, I think this relationship's going to go away, and I respect and and and value the the history that I have with this person. Would you be willing to either let me know what I don't know, or would you ask them on my behalf?
00:29:05
Speaker
Can you help this? And this to me is like the healthiest form of triangulation because not, I'm trying to get around this person. I'm trying to help this person help me and and get more data.
00:29:16
Speaker
And then lastly, if you've tried both of those things and nobody is willing to step in, it's an indicator that, oh, here's a boundary being crossed.
Clarity Through Vulnerability
00:29:24
Speaker
And so whether it's a relationship or a workplace, I would start looking for places where people do want to be in a dialogue, want to be in a relationship where they're willing to have those clarifying conversations.
00:29:35
Speaker
The lack of clarity is sort of a form of clarity eventually. 100%. Yeah. It's hard. I mean, you you are putting somebody in a state of stress if you're not being clear with them. Like you are causing anxiety. And if you're trying to lead or manage this person, it's it's not good. i um i you know what One of my colleagues is a process-oriented person.
00:29:56
Speaker
So when I plan something, you know it's like A, B, C, 7, 14, 14. fourteen the end, you know? I was like, this here you go. Here's there here's thegada here's the milk with soup. That makes sense, right? That order makes sense.
00:30:13
Speaker
And it doesn't, you know, and this person needs to go like, there's a space in between a and B, how do i how do I get there? And um ah my wife likes to say of me, we read this book years ago about this line tracker. and And he says, line tracking, you don't know where you're going, but you know how to get there because you're just following the the trail.
00:30:36
Speaker
My wife says to me, she goes, you're the opposite. You know exactly where you're going. You have no idea. ah Get there. Just like, but you'll find it. We'll discover the path together. And I think that's the last thing on this is clarity happens in community. It's a collaboration.
00:30:53
Speaker
And the second the other person opts out, they're kind of telling you, oh, you should go find a different collaboration or you could should find a different community. And I know that that's terribly scary and really painful. But I'd rather know that now than put on the face of a relationship or a community or a culture or a company for five years and then wake up and go, hold on, did I unwittingly give my attention to this for five years? As opposed to being in things that are real and helpful and beautiful and living in a right direction.
00:31:23
Speaker
Well, it's scary to ask questions that you don't want to ask that could lead to the end of even a not great relationship or a not great job. no and And so i think most of us don't ask those questions. We don't seek that clarity because we deep down know or fear the answer, which is, I don't want to do this with you or or not to not to that extent or at that level. Like, I'm cool and just staying on the surface. you good? You good? We're good. We're good. You know, see you later. So does this make sense is sort of the question that begins to crack that open.
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah. And I would say, you know, the work is built on questions and some questions are more dangerous than others. And this is a question that if you're not emotionally ready for this friend to go,
00:32:08
Speaker
I'm good. I would beware asking questions because not all questions are equal. So what do you do in that case? Like what do you do if um e you've got a question that you want to ask that you might not be ready for?
00:32:26
Speaker
i would say then the onus is on you to how am I building my own um emotional muscles to handle the weight of this when it shifts badly. Because in that moment, what I would have counseled you as your friend is going, you, this is a really funny joke from Amy Schumer.
00:32:43
Speaker
So she marries a a man who's on the spectrum and she says it's been incredibly liberating when they go out on dates because she'll get dressed in an outfit. And she says to her husband, who again is on the spectrum, hey, what do you think of this outfit? And he goes, you have other clothes.
00:33:00
Speaker
you know And it's this idea that you have other friends. There is other work. There are other places to be. And my deepest hope for actually all humans is that they operate mostly out of a place of desire and not a place of need.
Desire Over Need
00:33:13
Speaker
So if you had this empty hole that needed this friend, yeah or you're an indentured emotional servitude. If I'm in a place where I go, oh this is the only job that I could ever have at the only company that I could ever work at in the only town I could ever live in, it's an incredibly difficult and dark place to be. But if you can have the emotional way with all that goes, oh, I'm talented, I'm capable, there's other work, I can expand my mindset and my opinion of myself, there are other friends that I can make in my 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, oh, I don't have to be in this thing. And so anytime we feel like, oh, this is a question too dangerous for me to ask because I don't know if I would survive the answer, that's a good check engine light to go, oh, I probably need to do some internal work. There's some real codependency here. where It's not good for me.
00:33:59
Speaker
I do think one of the most vulnerable, liberating things you can do is admit when you don't understand something. Or, you know, when you don't know the answer, when something doesn't make sense to you. Now, we live in a world and a culture that is sort of predicated on the idea, especially in the professional world, that you just pretend, like you just fake it.
00:34:22
Speaker
And you know what it's like to be a consultant, you know, the guy in the room that's supposed to have the answers for everybody else. There's... um There is a temptation, i imagine, a tendency. I've been in those rooms to to like act the sage, to like pretend that you know something. But as you know, the best thing for you to do is to be as dumb as possible. wonderful Hey, i know I'm an idiot. i right bro Have you been sitting in on my calls lately? i didn't realize that invited, you know, live Zooms. Do we? Yeah.
00:34:54
Speaker
Yeah. yeah I think that's, um you know, you so like that's the work of the sage. That's why you have this trope of wizard meets holy fool. You know, why when Luke Skywalker goes to visit Yoda, he's he's comic.
00:35:10
Speaker
He's funny. He's silly. There is a wisdom to pointing out the the ludicrousness of our world. Like, hey. Does that make sense? That doesn't make sense to me. I'm a moron. So why do you make that worse? And then people go, I don't know either. Just always done it that way.
00:35:30
Speaker
So it does, it can, I think you can do two things. It can crack open possibilities for other people where you where you go, hey, if this doesn't make sense to anybody else, maybe we should do something about it. We should change it, right? And then everybody goes, okay, I was afraid to ask that.
00:35:43
Speaker
um But I think the other thing it does for you, as you said, is is it expands possibilities for you as well. Like it expands your worldview. That if you go, these are my only friends, this is my only community, is my only job, I can't leave here.
00:35:57
Speaker
Like that's a pretty small box and and you're only got ask so many questions from that small of a
Questions as a Bridge
00:36:03
Speaker
container. But if you admit that you don't know, that it's not totally clear, that more is at least possible because you don't know everything.
00:36:13
Speaker
It just invites it invites curiosity, which invites possibility, I think. Very well said. And I think that sense that question, which is you know what we can end on with this, that's so powerful because every word is so well so well- chosen.
00:36:29
Speaker
Can you help me understand? Mm-hmm. Can is this possibility word that you're just talking about. It expands our universe. Can. I don't know. Can it? Can you not? right Can you, all of a sudden now, it gives the other person the conversation this deep sense of like respect. like I'm asking you, can you you like do you know a thing?
00:36:49
Speaker
And so they're going, oh, the fact that you would even give me that position of authority in the moment. Can you help? Help is this thing where um neurologically speaking, we have such a hard wire for community that the moment need is expressed, we want to fill it.
00:37:05
Speaker
Whether we know it or not at subconscious level, we want to be able to be helpful, to be productive, to be purposeful. So can you help me? Now it closes the loop of you and me. Now there's this community sense.
00:37:17
Speaker
in the space of this question. And then lastly, understand. It's going, we're going to go on an exploration, but there is an end goal. It's going, oh, we want deeper understanding. It's not questions for the sake of questions. It's going, can we get to some island?
00:37:31
Speaker
Oh, there's dirt. Now we can go explore again to another island or eventually a mainland that we can occupy and enjoy. And here's Utopia. in its future state. So this question, I think I i heard it from a software executive the other day in a large meeting where you're like, he wouldn't be the guy that I would have said would ask that question. And he was going, no, I i start and end every request every session with my team.
00:37:54
Speaker
Hey, can you help me understand? What's the thing you're up against? Or what's the thing you wish I understood better? Or what's the thing giving everybody a hard time? Can you help me understand that?" And then when he's in the thing, he just plays repeat. He's going, okay, so now if this is the main problem, can you help me understand why that's the problem? Can you help me understand why we're doing it this way?
00:38:12
Speaker
And ah again, it's just this beautifully open question with real direction and a real end in mind. Well, that's a great question. Can you help me understand that? You did.
00:38:23
Speaker
ah ah And that is actually our last great question of this season. But we will have one more episode where we'll answer the final question after the last great question, which is where do we go from here?