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S1E06: One Great Question: Stop the "figure it out or get fired" madness
20 Plays4 months ago
Most companies do not have a people problem. They have an orientation problem.
In this episode, we unpack why smart, capable people feel lost, anxious, and overwhelmed at work, even in healthy organizations. The issue is not motivation or talent. It is a lack of clarity around where someone is in the process and what comes next.
We explore why growth creates chaos, why chaos creates anxiety, and how leaders unintentionally make things worse by telling people to “figure it out.” Using the simple but powerful People Development Square, we break down how real training actually works, from observing to partial ownership to full responsibility, to teaching others.
If you have ever onboarded someone and assumed they would catch on, or if you have ever been afraid to admit you were lost, this episode gives you language, structure, and a shared map. Clarity does not slow teams down. It gives them a way forward.
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Transcript
Undefined Roles and the FITFO Mentality
00:00:00
Speaker
That's the first and most critical thing that I see missed, is that companies over and over will hire for a role and then not define the responsibility. Quick starts hiring other people and and they've basically figured it out and they expect other people to to figure it out. It's not usually what's going on. I call it FITFO, which is figure ah the bleep out. So you're a middle management person who like figured it out. And now you're attest with replicating that to other people. And you're like, I guess they'll figure it out or they'll get fired. It's sort of like hazing in a fraternity. 100%. It's like, i went through this. You have to go through it.
00:00:37
Speaker
The value of a new employee is not just the job that they can do. It's the perspective they have on the job you're already doing.
00:00:47
Speaker
So where are we? Uh, well, we got kicked out of the other place, so we're still in my home and my office. That's where we physically are. Is that what you were asking? We keep changing outfits in a... Yeah. look at like We don't know why. I do.
Orientation and Its Impact on Workforce Efficiency
00:00:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. um Okay, so we're going through this process. The next question that I want to talk to talk through is where are we in the process? And the like the question that you work with is where are we in the training process, right?
00:01:13
Speaker
ah But I want to sort of zoom out and talk about what I think of as orientation, which is like, where are we? Like, what's what's happening? So in your work, is that a thing? Like, do you see people who just feel disoriented? They don't really know where they are in the process of what they're doing?
00:01:34
Speaker
I would imagine anybody listening or watching this right now is going, you mean that's not the way we're supposed to feel all the time? ah That is kind of a thing, isn't it, a lot of places where people feel lost but just too scared to say, I don't know what's going on. Yeah. And especially when there's any amount of growth.
00:01:52
Speaker
So I talk about this idea that growth always creates chaos, chaos always creates anxiety, and that anxiety leaves rooms for vacuum. And so what I mean by that is...
00:02:04
Speaker
You coming into a new job is a growth moment. Like, I didn't have the job, now I have the job. And there's chaos now. And you don't exactly know, if you think about any new company as like the physical building, you don't know where the bathrooms are yet. You don't know where your cubicle is yet or your office.
00:02:21
Speaker
And you could hypothetically, almost like what was that Tom Hanks movie where he was a man without a country and he was just kind of stuck in the airport. Oh, yeah. Terminal. Terminal. You could just kind of find places in the building to occupy for six months. And as long as the check just keeps on clearing, you can find places to hide.
00:02:39
Speaker
And I find that a lot of companies are weirdly wired to actually benefit that way of thinking of going, hey, you're smart, you're here, we'll figure it out over time. We just needed to make the hire. We needed to say on paperwork, we've got this person. And so what typically happens, you go, you're s smart, we hired you for a reason, you go figure it out.
00:02:58
Speaker
And so
Navigating Job Roles Without Clarity
00:02:59
Speaker
it leaves all of this ambiguity of like, figure what out, what's the starting point, what's the when, where are you wanting me to go? i did this in a previous job, but it looks very different here in this culture.
00:03:10
Speaker
How do you guys operate together? And so I think most people are sitting around on a Tuesday going, so hold on, what what are we doing here? Where am I in my development, either professionally or even just onboarding into the role?
00:03:24
Speaker
Your wise and inimitable brother, Jerome. He has both those things, both wise and imitable. Yes, hard to say. He said, you know, there there' everybody's got five senses. And he says, you can actually live without all of these senses. But there's one sense, there's a sixth sense you can not live without, which is movement. yeah The sense of of moving through the world and and being acquainted with the world. yeah um And that if you stop moving, you die right on a very real level. Like you just lie down and then don't ever get back up.
00:03:57
Speaker
And I was reading a while back about kind of so like the psychological concept of orientation, that when you are um teaching a child how to survive in the world, you're you're giving them some some concrete ideas. The sky is blue. This is how government works. Listen to your teachers, you know. That is a conversation I remember having with my three-year-old. don't know. Listen to it.
00:04:22
Speaker
and This is how government works. Yeah, right. I don't know. like You had different bedtime stories of your house. Whatever. and God, fairy tales, Santa. these are that they These are the concrete ideas that you grow up with. Democracy. um But this is orientation and this is how you learn to move through the world. And if you, was thinking about Jerome because if if you're dizzy, if you're disoriented, if you can't move well through the world, nothing makes sense. And we and we take um orientation for granted, the fact that like there's gravity. i'm i'm like There's a lot of things that I take for granted that if you messed with those things, if I had perpetual vertigo,
00:05:08
Speaker
I'm gonna go crazy, none of this is gonna make sense, it's not good. Quite literally, by the way. yeah We're not gonna figuratively go crazy, and is you if you tear apart or destroy the vestibular system, the thing that tells you, I'm sitting upright in this chair and all is well, and there's stasis and I'm safe.
00:05:27
Speaker
What my brain then tells me when that vestibular system breaks is you're just falling all the time. There is constant threat of pain or death in all moments. By the way, for a lot of people, that's what their job feels like. I'm constantly
Importance of Clear Expectations and Role Safety
00:05:40
Speaker
falling. They call it failing.
00:05:43
Speaker
And there's the threat of real pain or death all the time because I don't know where safety exists. Yeah. and And I think we take this for granted. We think of these things as like, I think of them as, um, uh, like indulgences, luxuries, like thinking of like, you know, what would life be like if dot, dot, dot, you know?
00:06:04
Speaker
while taking for granted the fact that like, I'm good, I'm here, I'm secure. And that's 99% of just getting through life is feeling psychologically safe, ah feeling physically safe and and centered. And most people on a day-to-day basis,
00:06:22
Speaker
um either, as you said, feel maybe so safe that they're bored ah or so in over their head that it's absolutely you know anxiety producing.
00:06:36
Speaker
um But it seems to me that you know kind of on both sides of that um equation, clarity is is helpful. Here's what is expected of you. Here's what here's what you're a part of. Here's kind of the the next thing that you need to do.
00:06:50
Speaker
Yeah, because to your your point, it's what am I orienting myself to? And it's going, I need the clarity of two things. We always need the clarity of these two things in life. What is my starting point?
00:07:02
Speaker
What is my desired end point? Because ah think about this in terms of a plane flight. James Clear talked about this in his book. And he said, if you're taking off from l L.A., you at least know you're in L.A.,
00:07:15
Speaker
But now you need to know where New York is if that's where you're trying to go. But vice versa, if I know I'm trying to get to Manhattan, but I don't know if I'm taking off from l LA or Austin, Texas, those are vastly different flight patterns and gas needs and plane and all this sort of stuff.
00:07:29
Speaker
So we have to know both of those things almost all the time. And by the way, if on your trajectory in LA, if you took off, pointed at Manhattan and you're off by even one degree, you don't have clarity on that flight path, you don't end in Manhattan, you land in DC.
00:07:45
Speaker
mean, that's a plane full of really pissed off people because we didn't know both those things, the starting point and the end point. well enough to navigate those two. And I think that's true of a lot of companies is we hire really well-intentioned, smart people and we call ourselves well-intentioned and then we're like, figure out the flight plan. And they're like, but hold on, what city are we taking off from? Oh, it doesn't matter,
The Square Model of Onboarding
00:08:07
Speaker
you'll figure it out. Hey, what city are we going to? Oh, you'll figure that, watch the other planes and just fly where they fly. And you're like, we we might run into each other, what are we supposed to do? yeah yeah And we're like, well, we're we're moving too fast to slow down to give you a flight plan.
00:08:21
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean, as somebody who has flown a lot of planes... ah On them or flying them? Like you flew them? I've i've watched a lot of movies on a lot of continental flights, is all I'm saying.
00:08:35
Speaker
It's not just that you have a great flight plan and you know where you're starting and where you're ending up. It's the fact that all along that flight path, you are making, you are the the ah autopilot...
00:08:48
Speaker
software mechanism, whatever they call it, is is making tiny corrections as they go and alterations. And sometimes you got to circle the airport of somebody else's landing or you got to stop to fuel up. There's those, you know, outlier moments. But the pilot is responsible for knowing where you start, where you're end where you end up, how you're going to get there and making course corrections along the way.
00:09:13
Speaker
And it seems to me in my experience working in an organization, um it's, you know, you may have a plan. You may have somebody who goes, this is where we're starting. This is where we're ending. But it's exceptionally, that's pretty rare, but it's exceptionally rare to have those things and then to be course correcting along the way, checking in.
00:09:34
Speaker
How are we doing? Is this still working? What else do we need to get going? And so that's where the question, you know, where are we in the process comes from. So when do you ask this question? When do you use this question in like a work setting?
00:09:49
Speaker
So I use this as an onboarding tool. So this has to be day one. We're setting kind of the course and we're talking about the culture. And there's really four parts to this inside. And, you know, we use shapes for everything because I'm an eight-year-old and I like simple things. And so the people development is a square because there's four parts to onboarding somebody from day one to I'm so good at this now I could train somebody else. So you said you're square, just to clarify? there's yeah That has was a nice right there.
00:10:25
Speaker
Okay, so the question is where are we in the training process, and then the the tool is people development. Is that right? Exactly. And so if you're, again, thinking of the square, you've got four parts and four numbers, one, two, three, four. And if you're looking at the top of the square and you go to the right, so one, two, three, four. At the top of the square, I'm just at the job. I just got here. And say um you are the creative director, and I'm going to be on your team. You're like, hey, Carl, I want you to post to social. I'll be like, okay.
00:10:54
Speaker
My first day on the job, i don't know the logins. I don't know the tone of our content. I haven't seen our branding guide, but I did social for somebody else before. And you're like, okay, going to be our social media manager going to be your creative director. Great.
00:11:07
Speaker
Well, for the very first part of the job, I need to watch somebody else do it. I need to be able to go, okay, this is where they're going for Instagram. This is what the username and password are. This is the cadence of them
New Perspectives in Onboarding
00:11:18
Speaker
posting. for So at the very beginning, I'm watching. So stage one is you do, I watch. If you're the person training or onboarding me and I'm the new employee, you're going to do the thing and I'm going to just watch you and soak that in.
00:11:30
Speaker
Because this is a place for great questions. I also tell them, CEOs and executives all the time, the value of a new employee is not just the job that they can do. It's the perspective they have on the job you're already doing, because they're the best person to ask new questions like, hey, why do we do it that way?
00:11:49
Speaker
Oh, okay. Well, historically, we've we actually, we haven't asked that in a while. Why are we doing it that way? Hey, have you ever heard about this software that could also do? Oh, well, we can look into that. So it's ah a new set of eyes asking, is this the most efficient, best way to do that particular task?
00:12:04
Speaker
yeah ah So when you say, where are we in the process? This is, i mean, these are the four steps of the process. And step one is you should be watching somebody else do it. Yeah, 100%.
00:12:18
Speaker
It's interesting to think about the value of somebody new coming into your organization. Because, we I mean, we often think of that organizationally as kind of a burden. You know, I've got to train this person. I don't know anything. It's going to. cost money to hire them, cost me time to interview all these other people. Now it's gonna cost me a bunch of time to to train them and get them kind of back up to speed, you know, compared to wherever the, you know, the last person was. Sure, if i I did this, you know, I've gotta train somebody else to do it now.
00:12:43
Speaker
And you're right that the longer you stay somewhere, the less inquisitive you become because there's all this stuff that's taken for granted. And it's funny, you know, being married to a Canadian ah who is is often observing things in American culture, whether we're going through an election or she's just, you know. Wait, there's an election?
00:13:07
Speaker
other Or she's just like standing in line at a coffee shop. She's like, why do people do do this this way? Now, I'm generally a critic of of most things, you know, that I'm surrounded by. So I'm always kind of noticing how weird and stupid culture and society are. And But she'll ask me these questions and still my knee-jerk reaction is like, that's just but we that's just how it is. oh don't Don't ask.
00:13:33
Speaker
and And you realize that anytime you're in a pretty complex system, say in the United States of America, um you know she'll ask me a question about like, so what how does the electoral college work? When I'm like, it's like, I don't know. Daylight savings time. Why is that still a thing? Oh, it's the farmers.
00:13:51
Speaker
Yeah, but why now? I don't know. don't know. And do some states don't don't do it. Yeah, because Arizona's just decided we're good. it yeah So you really never know what time it is anywhere. And you're having to, like, confirm with people in the UK who'd celebrate it two weeks later. Very difficult.
00:14:08
Speaker
um Yeah, but you realize how much of your life is really just based on assumptions when you get an outside perspective. And I think that that's an interesting idea for anybody who trains other people how to do things, that there is this really nice honeymoon period where you've got somebody new on your team where you have a limited window from an outside perspective. You basically have hired a consultant you know to come and help you see...
00:14:34
Speaker
this potential dysfunction in what you're doing. But I mean, I imagine that takes a lot of humility, awareness, and margin to think that. Yeah, imagine's the biggest thing. yeah um Because I think you can, um for a lot of people, you know they they go, we want to make this thing better, but they're under the confines of we've got a KPI or we have to go get the win. And so typically what you see on the SQAE is people will go from one straight to four.
00:15:00
Speaker
It's going, you're here. Okay, now you've got it. Let me know if you've got any questions. And it's literally the worst thing that you can do to yourself, to the employee, to the culture. Because, you know, I ask people on a regular basis now, anybody here ever had a 10 out of 10 onboarding experience? Anybody here have the world's best training that you would recommend to somebody else? And unless
Incremental Ownership in Onboarding
00:15:21
Speaker
they were in something that they deeply believed in, like the military, and they were in some sort of special services or special ops where millions of dollars were spent on their training, people are not going, that was an incredibly good experience and I felt well cared for and it was really robust and beautiful. um As opposed to...
00:15:39
Speaker
No, it was anxiety ridden, was too short and it was unhelpful. And maybe I was shoved, you know, kind of in a training center with a VHS tape thrown in a standing TV in the corner and then figured, okay, after four hours you're trained, go jump on the forklift.
00:15:55
Speaker
And so, you know, if we're wanting to get better at this, if we're wanting to have great relationships, if we're wanting to have great companies, we have to go, oh, the next step is I'm now going to give you part ownership of this. So what that looks like is you go from one to two.
00:16:12
Speaker
It's now going, okay, I went from doing 0% of the job to now I can do up to 25% of the job. So going back to our, you're the creative director, I'm the social media manager. I can do about 25 of the things on my responsibilities list. By the way, that's the first and most critical thing that I see missed is that companies over and over will hire for a role and then not define the responsibility. Oh, here's your title.
00:16:36
Speaker
Okay, well, what do I do on a Tuesday? Oh, we'll figure that out. Don't you think that's like, I don't know, yeah quick starts hiring other people and and they've basically figured it out and they expect other people to to figure it out. Is that usually what's going on?
00:16:55
Speaker
Yeah, typically what's happened with people who are in middle management is you were a frontline worker who got good at your particular thing. You then get promoted and have been asked to manage other people who have not advanced or are new and don't have your same level of, I call it FITFO, which is figure ah the bleep out.
00:17:15
Speaker
So you're a middle management person who like figured it out and now you're a test with replicating that to other people. And you're like, I guess they'll figure it out or they'll get fired. It's sort of like hazing in a fraternity. 100%. It's like, I went through this. You have to go through it. And I was in a fraternity. ah And I was like...
00:17:36
Speaker
the totally chill, didn't drink, didn't go crazy, um you know intellectual-ish kind of guy in the fraternity. and then i made it in and then it came time for the next um you know batch of of pledges.
00:17:56
Speaker
And I totally got sucked into the hazing and and putting them through hell, even though I was going to be somebody different. You know, it's like the, uh, that Stanford prison experience. yeah You know, it's like the the environment changes everything.
00:18:10
Speaker
So if you, if you had to struggle to make it here, You're not going to make it that easy on on the person you have to train because you figured it out, and therefore they're going to have to figure it out as well. Which is so fascinating because the research doesn't bear that out in terms of like what actually produces great companies, cultures, you know advancements. It's not like this dog-eat-dog. No, no. The struggle isn't the god that we should all worship and go, well, if you can survive the struggle, then you win. Because if that was true, take, let's go back to the military. Oh, you're going, oh, well, a Navy SEAL has to go through these horrific things to become a Navy SEAL. The struggle is a way forward. It's like, no, no. no
00:18:48
Speaker
70 years of process and training and clear understanding of this thing will equal this outcome as opposed to we'll just give it over to chaos and the best will rise. right Like
Structured Training vs. Middle Management Challenges
00:18:59
Speaker
that's not how it works. now It was an incredible tri super controlled high precision. right And so it's really fascinating to me too, by the way. Like I go to enough of these conferences and seminars where they're bringing in leaders and it's always like, hey, let's march out another Navy SEAL or a Green Beret guy and let's do kind of the rah-rah. And it's like,
00:19:17
Speaker
It's very difficult for you at your 80 person company to mimic the hundreds of millions of dollars invested in training, like super fighters um and go like, Hey, you have the same mentality. It's like, you want the precision and the effort and the intentionality. Let's migrate that.
00:19:37
Speaker
But very little of the rest of the experience can you migrate because also I don't care about software that much. So for me to be a data engineer and you go, we're going to onboard like, you know, Jocko Willick in his new book and like extreme ownership, you're like, it doesn't work here. But what does work is a place where the leadership has then formulated the training process for management and frontline where goes, here's your starting point, here's your end point. And there are 40 touch points in between that you can now measure your progress towards. And so again, step two is I can now do 25% the job.
00:20:11
Speaker
We make what's called the oh crap turn down at the bottom of the square, where it goes from, oh, you're doing 75% of the job or more, and I'm doing up to 25. When we make the oh crap turn, we flip-flop.
00:20:22
Speaker
Now I'm doing at least 75% of that particular task, and you're helping with up to 25% of the job. And we can actually live in space three forever. We don't actually have to make the the move to step four because at least at that point, you've handed off up to 99% of the job. But there's some secret sauce in actually getting to step four.
00:20:42
Speaker
So it's like zero. You're just observing. 25%, then 75%. then seventy five percent and then what's what happens at four? So the big barrier to number four is management or the executive has to ask the question, not only do I want to replicate this person's ability, their capacity, do I also want to replicate their character?
00:21:04
Speaker
Is this somebody who embodies the culture and I want them now training our newest people coming into the culture? Because you can know the job, but you may not be able to actually transfer the culture in a way that feels great to me. And so moving to step four is now going, I can train anybody new who's coming in. At step three, you can do up to 99% of the job all the time.
00:21:26
Speaker
If there's a big FIA, somebody else can come in and step in and help you out. But you've basically got it under control. Where they move to step four, which is the replication point, true development is going, I've developed you so well that our goal inside companies is I'm not looking to build a leader. I'm looking to build a leadership factory where that one leader can make 10 more just like them. And to make that turn to number four is making sure not only can you do the hard skill job, the widget making, do you also have the soft skill abilities to replicate the culture and the chemistry and the the character of what we're trying to do here at CEDFOAM.
00:22:04
Speaker
So
Evaluating Responsibilities with the Square Model
00:22:05
Speaker
how do you use this tool? like Where does this come into play? Where are we in this process? like What does it practically look like? When when do you when you work with the team and and actually bring this in? Yeah. So if I'm working with, say, a management team, so say there's 10 people on the management team and they oversee another 50 60 people.
00:22:25
Speaker
What I wanna know is for everybody on your team, one, what are all the responsibilities? So if the eight people that you're managing or the five people that you're managing, if by the end of this quarter you were to go, we did it, well, what is it? Okay, so there's a responsibilities list that goes, hey, we can do all these things.
00:22:43
Speaker
Then the next thing I want to know is with real clarity, hey, take them around the square so you can tell them zero, 25, 75, or you could train. Are you at a one, two, three, or four with that particular responsibility? So for instance, I just use this with a manufacturing company in Minnesota. Guy's running a shop as the foreman. He's new and really smart, really dedicated, really on top of things. And I said, hey, what are the seven wins in the next month? What are the responsibilities that you have? And he he listed them out.
00:23:12
Speaker
And I said, okay, now i want you to list one through four. Where do you think you're at? And this guy is in a hard, like this is blue collar industry. You don't share vulnerability. You say, I'll figure it out. Don't talk to anybody. But it's also, it's a dangerous world that this guy works in. this Heavy machinery and things can go wrong.
00:23:29
Speaker
And he listed on there four, four, three, one, four, one, and this guy's now in charge of these things, but hasn't had enough time with somebody training and developing him. So at least now anybody who is leading him can go, oh, this is where we need to spend some time. So as opposed to the general question is, hey, how are things going?
00:23:52
Speaker
It's a well-intentioned but terrible question, as we've talked about. Now it gives a real specificity. Hey, with this responsibility, are you at a one, two, three, or four? Then I know immediately how much effort do I need to put in to help you to get you to either a three or four on that task.
00:24:08
Speaker
And the one, two, three, or four is the the square. The square. So you're observing, you're you've taken over 25% of it, you're doing almost all of it, but you can't teach it, or you're now at a point where you can teach other people how to do it.
00:24:21
Speaker
Exactly. And so and any any anything that you're working through, any goal that you're ah working towards, you've got other people involved, you can and should just kind of check in with them and see where they're at in the process in terms of how capable and competent they are to execute that.
00:24:40
Speaker
Yes, because in that moment now, we have moved from incredible ambiguity on what you need from me or what I need from you to incredible clarity with something as simple as one, two, three, four. And now all of a sudden, to go back to our airplane analogy, I know you're in LA trying to get to New York. And if you tell me you're at a one, I've got to fly the plane and fuel it and stock it. If you tell me you're at a fall, I'll just see you in New York whenever you get there. And some version in between, we're figuring out, oh, this is how we're getting better and better at this over time.
00:25:11
Speaker
Huh. Well, that's a good question. I think so. Where are we in the process? By the way, little side note for human life outside of the workplace.
00:25:26
Speaker
I've found this to be really helpful just in little things when I'm trying to learn and adapt of going, oh, let me do a little self audit. If I'm trying to learn how to play the guitar, or I'm trying to learn how to be more emotionally available in this relationship with this person, or I'm trying to walk through conflict right now,
00:25:45
Speaker
Do I have enough of the skills? Do I have enough resources to go, I can do 75% or more of this thing that I want to be good at or want to win at. And if not, oh, I need to go about finding a resource, finding somebody to develop me in that thing. So it's also useful for kind of a self-audit as well.
00:26:02
Speaker
I think it's it's not exactly apples to apples, but it's interesting about just like your excitement level as well. Like when you're being shown how to do something, probably eager to get your hand hands on it.
00:26:18
Speaker
excited And then when you when you start transferring some ownership over, you go from one to two, you get even more excited and probably have sort of this false sense of competence and mastery. It's like, I'm doing it. I'm doing it you know You're like riding your bike after your dad just kind of pushed you down the street with it. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. Sort of. like we're here You've inherited momentum. yeah And then as you said, there's that sort of, oh, crap moment where you go from two to three where you begin, I think, to really feel the weight.
00:26:48
Speaker
of responsibility. The training wheels came off. Yeah. And then it kind of sucks for a while. It does. And then through that suckiness, you get to a point, potentially get to a point of proficiency where you are able to repeat the cycle and hand it off to somebody else. Yeah.
Community and Support in Personal Growth
00:27:04
Speaker
And that's the beauty of all growth in life, right? Is going, can I be in enough community to get through the scary bit well? Or am I getting through the scary stuff alone and adapting so I can't actually teach that to somebody else? Because this is a problem, right? If this was hard earned by me and my own suffering and I just put my head down and I became a manager and now you do as well, that's not a scalable way to walk through life. It's not a scalable way to address people development inside a company. There has to be a system. There has to be like a check-in point that goes, oh,
00:27:39
Speaker
It should suck right now. That was expected. yeah Okay, great. Well, as long as we're in this together and when it sucks, I can ask you for help to get from 75% of the job to knowing how to do 85% of it or 90% because I need this resource. Oh, I can't do the job for you, but I can go get you a resource. Now, of a sudden, there's community and, you know, it's the old proverb. If you want to go first, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And this helps us know how to go together. Yeah.
00:28:06
Speaker
Yeah. Well, until the next question.