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S1E02 | One Great Question: What if winning the argument is still losing?
26 Plays5 months ago
Most conflict is not caused by bad intentions. It happens when curiosity disappears.
This episode explores a deceptively simple question that changes everything: When was the last time you asked a real question? From a surprising John Lennon and Yoko Ono story to a real-time conflict that forced us to change where we were filming mid-recording (haha), we examine how connection is built or broken in moments of tension.
We talk about why winning often costs more than it gives, why great questions need the right room, and how conflict stops escalating when two people search for two yeses instead of one victory.
This is not about clever techniques or power moves. It’s about presence, humility, and the courage to stay curious when it would be easier to shut down.
Listen in if you want fewer battles and more understanding. Stay curious.
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Transcript
Inviting Empathy: Effective Questioning
00:00:00
Speaker
Is that a real question that you would ask somebody, when's the last time you asked me a question? Is that a way to sort of invite some empathy or is that just a reflection? I would be careful not to make it feel like cornering, like, hey, when's the last time you asked me a question, butthole? It would probably, the the way that I would form that a phrase, I'd be like, hey, I'd love for you to ask me a question about me that's on your mind.
00:00:19
Speaker
What I hear you saying is like, whatever room you're in, bring a good question, you know and always be kind of trying to find a better question. And the inverse of that is also interestingly very true. You need small rooms to ask big questions.
00:00:33
Speaker
If you want resolution, you need a smaller room where people are for you and with you, and they're holding the weight of that thing and going, we will take this thing seriously. Because a lot of times we throw great questions out in the wrong spaces. Yeah. The most important question is the next one.
The Lennon-Ono Connection: Art & Society
00:00:53
Speaker
Do you know how John Lennon met Yoko O'Meal? As a former professional musician, I'm ashamed to say i have no idea how John and Yoko met. So I might not be getting all the details right, but she was- I don't want hear it. It's not accurate to the, d you know- It's probably pretty accurate. ah all'll ah my My wife makes fun of me about this. She's like, I'll hear something once and remember it exactly.
00:01:19
Speaker
My wife makes fun of me for the opposite. I'll hear something once and then embellish it yeah indefinitely. and Yeah. yeah which is you know the better of the two. um So, ah Yoko was a a pretty avant-garde artist. John Lennon is sort of sick of being a Beatle.
00:01:38
Speaker
He never really wanted to be famous. He ah you we went to arts, but wanted to be an artist. And so when he got sort of pigeonholed as like this doo-wop-y, head-shaking mop head, he hated it you know. And he spent the first half of his career with the Beatles, which was less than a decade.
00:01:59
Speaker
um kind of building up this worldwide international fame, and then the second half basically trying to tear it down. And you could see it in their music, I mean, you could see him getting weirder and weirder weirder. Like he has, he and Yoko started, when they started making music together, they have like 12 minute songs of them just screaming.
00:02:19
Speaker
It's pretty avant-garde. Anyway, but but he met her at at a at an art exhibit of hers in new York City. And the exhibit is um you climb a ladder and you open a little trap door in the ceiling and you have to like get a little magnifying glass and you and you and there's a tiny little word and you and you use the magnifying glass to see what the word is and the word says, yes.
00:02:47
Speaker
And that's the whole exhibit. That's how they met. That's fascinating. And for you, why do you think that was such a catalyst for them? Because I think he felt pigeonholed.
Teaching Negotiability: Embracing Yes
00:03:03
Speaker
as an artist, and then the job of an artist is always continue to expand horizons. This is what an artist does is society says, this is the line between true and false, between real and not real. And the artist always wants to embellish that line a little bit.
00:03:20
Speaker
And this is what questions do. And so what what I like about that is whatever Most people are asking a question that they are afraid to voice. And um i remember reading a poem by David White a while back, which was ah he has a conversation with his dead mother in this poem where his mom comes to him in a dream or something.
00:03:47
Speaker
But basically it's a way for him to kind of like tie up the loose ends of, you know, losing his mother. And basically she says to him something like, you know, everything you ever believed was true.
00:03:59
Speaker
And I think there's something about that, especially as we get older, that yes, there is a version of us who get sort of beat up, disillusioned, frustrated with the world. You know, the the inner child goes, life is hard.
00:04:14
Speaker
But there's another version of of us who's waiting for it to come back around again. The version that's saying yes. That says yes. Whatever the question is, the answer is yes. because Because most of life tells you no. Your parents tell you no. Your boss tells you no. The authorities tell you no.
00:04:31
Speaker
One of the lessons that I want to teach my kids is that most things are negotiable.
Reflections on Age and Responsibility
00:04:36
Speaker
Even this is negotiable. Now, there's always a cost to negotiation. Yeah. You might have to give something up to get what you want.
00:04:43
Speaker
But ah most of the experiences in my life where somebody said, this is the line, that wasn't like a law of the universe.
00:04:55
Speaker
It was just an indication of their experience up to that point in their life. And they're like, this is the way the world works. And this happens in organizations. This happens in neighborhoods. This happens in nations. And it certainly happens in a world where you're dealing with other people and somebody says, this is the way it is. Yeah. And it's the HOA or the UN. Yeah. It's never the way it is. It's the way we've agreed that it needs to be right now.
00:05:25
Speaker
But that is always shifting. And if it's shifting too much, you have chaos. But if it's shifting too little, um you've got stasis, you've got stagnancy, you've got the opposite of evolution.
00:05:36
Speaker
And I think it's interesting that as you were talking about us getting older, today for me, and I only know this because my brother has a memory and a brain like yours and he thinks about things like this.
00:05:47
Speaker
Today, as we record this conversation, I am the exact age my dad was when he died to the day. Today. Today. And this was brought to my attention by my brother on a Marco Polo. Like I had no idea. And so it's me and my two brothers and two of our friends are on this Marco Polo group. And he was like, I've been thinking about this cause it's also his son's ninth birthday today.
00:06:14
Speaker
This is your brother's yeah son's ninth birthday. Yeah. So my nephew. So your nephew was born the day that your dad died, not the day, but like the date, like the date. you Right.
00:06:25
Speaker
Yeah. The, uh, days that he was, I guess, alive. Anyway, the the math escapes me because I'm not a detailed person like you and Jerome are, but the idea here is tomorrow I will have lived one more day than my dad did.
00:06:42
Speaker
in his life. Jerome, you know, had done the math on the months and the years and days. And again, it was because conversations that I've had with these five guys and with my wife and with, you know, people that I trust and respect like you, that I come to this place still asking, where's the yes?
00:07:00
Speaker
Not being afraid of the no. And I think that is the byproduct of great questions. It's the byproduct of remaining curious after 43 and a half years of life where I'm in positions and there might be incredible privilege involved that and I recognize that. But I think like Spider-Man, Peter Parker would say, with great power comes great responsibility. So if I've been given this power and privilege to be able to ask and receive good questions from other people,
00:07:32
Speaker
my role in the world is now to give that to other people, to make sure that when you maybe outlive the days that your parents had, that they're full of more yeses than nos. They're full of more curiosity than, you know, a jaded assumption that i already have all the answers.
Lessons from Early Career in Sales
00:07:51
Speaker
I like the idea that um conflict resolution, which is what we're talking about today, is um is really a matter of trying to find the yes.
00:08:06
Speaker
I've done in various seasons of life, i was at my very, very first real real job as an adult was working in a call center. um And it's funny how these like early jobs ah affect you.
00:08:22
Speaker
And that job affected me in two ways. One, driving 30 minutes to go work in a call center for eight hours a day for seven months straight. I decided I will never do that in a no like I will not end up back there. That is not the ideal scenario for me. Yeah. And too, I mean, I did learn how to sell, you know i learned how to make a hundred calls a day, get 20 connects, five sales. And what's funny is um i I like to think that most things aren't a numbers game. And that job taught me the opposite.
00:08:57
Speaker
You know, it's like now this just is what it is, you know, it it ah it basically evens out. If you have amazing conversations with people, you know, 20 minute conversation, like, oh, this is a great conversation. I'll have to think about it. right You know, it did it didn't convert any better. It was just like, get the calls and make it happen.
Mutual Wins in Conflict Resolution
00:09:14
Speaker
But the other thing I learned was really what it means to sell, you know, and what it means to sell is everybody has a yes, you know, a little trapdoor yes that they that they need. nope um And what's um what you need to do to find the yes is to ask the right question. Yeah.
00:09:36
Speaker
And I think the beauty of framing curiosity around this topic of conflict is going Let's elevate it, right? Instead of asking like, hey, how do we do conflict better? It's going, well, let's even elevate our thinking around conflict. Because you said something really interesting in even the Yoko story.
00:09:56
Speaker
It's like you grab the mag and find glass and you look and it says yes. My premise around this idea of conflict is actually you're not looking for a yes, you're looking for two yeses.
00:10:07
Speaker
Because in every conversation, there will always be conflict, there's always tension, there's always like a scarcity moment of like, well, are you getting enough time or am I getting enough time? And in any relationship, if there's one winner, there are two losers.
00:10:22
Speaker
Because if I win and I walk away, well, then we lost relationship. And so what we're now looking for is two yeses. And the beauty of this question is really going, well, how can we get on the same page? That or requires me to move and you to move. It requires two yeses to move from being in opposition to each other to being shoulder to shoulder, staring in the same direction at something. Hey, just say that note from the team of their, the sole animal path.
00:10:51
Speaker
Oh, yeah, we had brought that in. I can move it back for you. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we had brought that in before you. Before our conversation. Today or, um. Hey, man, I'll just pack up.
00:11:04
Speaker
That sounds great. Yeah. I'm sorry I had to ask you. No, no, it's fine. I was canceled. Yeah. Sure. Thank you. Yep. Appreciate it. Yep.
00:11:13
Speaker
You were feeling it. You were feeling it. You were making it hard. So actually what I think is better is let's just head straight to my house. Because we can still salvage today. won't need to nearly as much of this. So, yeah.
00:11:30
Speaker
Comfie. All right. So mean, it's fun. It is fun. So it was fun because everything belongs. And I think creativity is about letting everything belong and bringing it in and alchemizing it. there yeah And this is what I think doesn't happen in good conversations is there' there there are taboos, there are things that are they're topics that are off limits.
00:11:55
Speaker
And because i don't think people realize like a conversation is like a GPS. If you start going the wrong way, you can turn around. there You go, hey, do you want to talk about this? I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable. Okay, that's cool.
00:12:06
Speaker
But people don't do that because they're trying to get to an outcome. And eat conversation is not outcome based, it's connection based. Right. yep so this episode is about conflict.
00:12:19
Speaker
We are getting kicked out of the place that we rented terribly to do this. that We're the process of getting kicked out. It's like the Beatles, you know, playing that rooftop concert. and And then at the end of Let It Be, you know, the police are coming to kick them off. Because we expect this conversation to be the level of, you know, a Beatles record. but We need that level of artistry.
00:12:40
Speaker
But I think it's important to know of while we're in the midst of this thing, wrapping it up and, you know, starting to wrap cables and get out of here, is my desire is for the gentleman who just said, hey, we we're making this really hard for them. I don't want this to be hard for anybody. I want a win-win. And so now in the container, unfortunately, somebody else who's probably outside of his purview has decided this is no longer a win for us. This is actually disruptive.
00:13:05
Speaker
And so in that moment, we can pivot. We can find a different space. We can do a different thing. Because in this moment, if I were to be like, I'm going to cancel my membership and I'm never going to be here and you're going to get one-star review,
00:13:17
Speaker
All I've done in that moment is I might feel vindicated and get a win, but I've lost any connection with this other human. And the whole point of this thing, it's ah a journey where we as humans are trying to connect in these conversations and these dialogues.
00:13:31
Speaker
And if we can stop looking for my win or your win and continue to go even as painful and difficult as it will be now to have a four-hour interruption and find a new location, If that is at the expense of maintaining any sort of relationship with another human, I think it's a question worth asking. How do I help continuing to adjust to make sure there's a win-win?
00:13:52
Speaker
And then sometimes, as it might be in this moment, the win-win is going, oh, well, we will just get to work separately from each other. And that's what it is. So the question is, how do we get on the same page? Right.
00:14:05
Speaker
And I think for us right now in this moment, getting on the same page is being in a different location from each other. So this lovely establishment will continue to operate. We will continue to operate. And we'll both continue to do good things in the world. It just unfortunately won't be together because it just didn't make it sense for both parties to do that.
00:14:23
Speaker
And so sometimes being on the same page means you're being in separate places. You're not... ah you know When both sides are not necessarily willing to give up something essential, you've just got to part ways and go that that is being on the same page in the sense that you continue to get what you want. You get your win, I get my win, and we kind of go in our parallel journeys. Yeah, because the three critical parts of doing this well are the three A's of a great conversation. And it doesn't mean the three A's of getting your way, which is different, right? The three A's of a great conversation are, one, we acknowledge their difficulty.
00:14:58
Speaker
I've done something that apparently I shouldn't have done inside the ecosystem of this space. Okay, I would like to, I'm so sorry. I've had two conversations now with this gentleman to say, i did not mean to make your life harder, and I'm acknowledging that I have. I'm deeply sorry. The second thing, you affirm their effort. Hey, I really appreciate you sending an email or talking to me or bringing it to my attention. i'm mean I'm affirming you are trying to make this work. And then the third thing, you ask what's their win, which I just did. i said, hey, would it make it better for you if we just packed up? Because it's making your day, as he said, you're making it really hard for me. Hey, man, I want to acknowledge that.
00:15:37
Speaker
terribly sorry, I wish we could sort this out. And then all of a sudden, you can leave at least having acknowledged and affirmed and asking. So there's an incredible amount of ah clarity because conflict is typically built on a lack of clarity. It's ambiguous and so creates anxiety. Whereas in this moment,
00:15:55
Speaker
He is very clear on what I tried to do and how I tried to fix it. I'm very clear on what he tried to do, but those wins could no longer operate in the same space. And so now we just go, oh, we tried.
00:16:06
Speaker
Again, i acknowledge, very sorry. Thank you for trying. And we'll just win in different spaces. Yep. All right. So we'll see you in a second in our new location. Well, we're in my house now because that was weird, right?
00:16:23
Speaker
Pretty weird. ah So speaking of conflict, there we go um you were just kicked out of... I wasn't kicked out you. For sure, yeah. It's just me. It's me.
00:16:34
Speaker
About the crew. No, it's just Carl. ah Yeah, it was pretty um fun. ah so The question is, how do we get on the same page? Can we get on the same page? um I just saw you try to dismantle a conflict and um and that resulted in us moving locations. ah Maybe just break that down for me. like what yeah Like what happened? Like you were obviously trying to find some common ground with...
00:17:03
Speaker
the powers that be and and they didn't want us there. Yeah. It reminds me of this famous phrase, you know, as much as it is possible with you, live in peace with all
Humor and Perspective in Relationships
00:17:13
Speaker
people. Right. And in that moment, there was no more peace to be had in a kind of a shared space. Right. And so I tried to run the three A's. Hey, I'm going to acknowledge this thing is difficult for you. I'm going to affirm like, hey, you're great. Love the space. Thank you.
00:17:26
Speaker
um And then I'm going to ask, hey, what's the win? And the in the end, the win was us not being there. And that created less tension and more of a win. Now we're in my house, feels really comfortable. All of us feel a little bit more comfortable because we don't know, hey, are we laughing too loud? Are we having too much fun? Okay, let's just have some home field advantage.
00:17:43
Speaker
And I think in this space, it's just really important to remember like what you're trying to win. you're You're trying to find those two wins, right? It's never going, oh, I won because I stayed or they won because we left. It's going, no, in this place, there's a way to find a win for everybody involved.
00:17:58
Speaker
That felt like within reason, there was a win for you to leave on, so you know, with some common ground. Yeah, because I don't want to, you know, i don't want to burn the relationship to the ground. And so in that moment, if I leave kicking and screaming and I win because I'm vindicated because they were wrong into the letter of the law, they're not allowed to do this recording to me. Well, then I win. And then they can come back with an email and be like, no, we can do whatever we want to. And then they win. Well, yeah in both those situations, you have one winner and two losers.
00:18:28
Speaker
So we left, went out to lunch. At the end of lunch, you got an email that that canceled your membership at this co-working space. ah and And does that still feel like a win? I mean, doesn't feel great. No, I think in this moment, again, the the idea of conflict in the tool is this circle. Okay. And this actually stemmed from an argument that my wife and I had almost 20 years ago. just We're 16 years ago as newlyweds. And we were on the opposite sides of this table.
00:18:58
Speaker
we're having an argument, and it's so long ago, i have no idea what it was about. But what I do remember is, I'm a large human, and my wife is a petite lady, and in the middle of the argument, she stretches both arms out super wide and goes, I'm not afraid of you, bear.
00:19:13
Speaker
And the image was so funny to me. I literally collapsed on my side of the table laughing at this little person. mean, she's not a little person, she's five foot one, but I mean, to me, it was very funny to watch her go, I'm not afraid of you, Bear.
00:19:28
Speaker
And she comes around to my side of the table and I come around to her so we we meet kind of in the middle and we're just laughing and laughing and laughing. So it went from this really tense moment where it's like, oh, you're newlyweds, this go poorly, like, you know, this isn't a guarantee to, oh my gosh, we're laughing.
00:19:44
Speaker
And as I collect myself, I'm like, what inspired that? And she said, As you were ramping up and I was ramping up, I was reminded of a friend of mine who I think they were ah camp guide out west. And apparently bears are a real problem out on the trails. And what these camp counselors are taught is like, if you see one on the trails, get as big and loud as you can and chase the bear off. And she said, you're kind of like a bear. was like, I'm not like a bear. She said...
00:20:09
Speaker
well, you get, like, you know, angry when you're hot, tired, or hungry. And I was like, I guess I sound just like a bear. And so in the moment, she's like, all I can think to do is break the tension, but I'm not afraid of you, bear.
00:20:21
Speaker
And what happened in that moment is there was an actual two winds. Because as the tension was broken and she moved with levity to my side and I moved with asking for forgiveness for ramping up to her side, all of a sudden we found this common ground that wasn't on her side of the table or mine. It was on now this third space where all of a sudden I could go, hey, I escalated that way too quickly. And she'd go, you know, own whatever she needed to own from the conversation.
00:20:47
Speaker
But it was this mutual desire to say, we need to find a new narrative. We need to find a new... In that moment, it was my question of where did that come from? And unpacking that story and going, oh, I need to be more careful in these situations. Because, I mean, even physiologically, I'm at that point, six foot two, 280 pounds. I'm a large person taking up a lot of space. And this is somebody else going, I don't love that. so let me share my vulnerability with you. Do you think that was happening today? like No, I don't. So the way that I would say this is different in that moment is um I think sometimes when a company, and I see this a lot, right?
00:21:24
Speaker
I see when a company starts to get really big, they have to just, hey, this is our policy as we become more corporate. We're trying to have 200 stores as opposed to 10. They go, we have to live by a procedure.
00:21:35
Speaker
And I'm somebody who goes into companies and helps them create more clarity around their procedures. But in that moment, they sacrificed a relationship. for policy. right And that person having the conversation could be like, hey, let's have a quick 15 minutes. Let's really get to the bottom of this. Let's see if Carl, me, the offending party in this moment is willing to acquiesce or move or say mea culpa.
00:21:58
Speaker
And for them, it's like, it's not worth the time now or the relational capital. We'll just cut ties and kind of be done. yeah because that's cleaner and more efficient for us. And the problem with that inside a culture is then you feel the culture of transaction, transactional as opposed to relational.
00:22:14
Speaker
Even to something like, take a Starbucks, for instance. In the early 2000s, this was a thing to do. Like you went to the place, you got like a higher form of service and it felt curated. Your name is like really special.
00:22:29
Speaker
And as they expanded and they even talked about this, we grew so quickly that we were losing the relational connection. And so you even watch Starbucks now in the last couple of years trying to not shrink back in size, but shrink back in intentionality and how they handle the tension of that. Because that's all conflict is.
00:22:45
Speaker
There's always tension. How are you being intentional with the tension? And this in this moment, to of finally answer your question, I think they just lacked intentionality on the other partner part of the partnership that I was trying to communicate with. Yeah.
00:22:59
Speaker
It reminds me of ah a book that I worked on with a client years ago about sales and he would teach sales reps how to close more. And he taught them sort of the opposite of what everybody was taught, you know, which is most salespeople are like going to kill, you know, go get go get the sale, do whatever you got to do push push, push, push, push. And he had a policy of drop the rope.
00:23:20
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Like there's always a tug of war with you and and the prospective client. You're trying to win. You're trying to beat them. But nobody wants to feel ah beaten beaten, you know, and then they're parting with their money. They want to feel like they win. And so he he said, you got to drop the rope and take the trip.
00:23:37
Speaker
And it's about creating receptivity where you become more receptive to other people's ideas. And then when you become more receptive to them, they become more receptive to you. Not always, but often.
00:23:48
Speaker
And so I love just that word picture of, you know, crossing the, you know going on to the other side of the table, taking the trip. He drew this picture of like North Pole, South Pole. I'm up here. You're down here. and And that is what the world looks like. Right, left, good, bad. um ah You know, this side versus that side. You've got one of you, they've got another. You're both looking at the world, but from different perspectives.
00:24:11
Speaker
And all it takes is one person to kind of go to the other side of the table and go, oh, this is what it looks like. Yeah, that that it that does make sense. You know, I'm a foot taller than you. ah It makes sense that, you know, I would be intimidating to you, even if I don't think I'm being intimidating. Mm-hmm.
00:24:27
Speaker
And to your point, whether it's the globe or the table, that's where the intentionality and this idea for this question comes from being attached to a circle. You're on one side of the circle. I'm on the other side of the circle. How do we find a way to be on the same side shoulder to shoulder? Because again, in most things, people aren't the problem. The process is the problem. Something broke down in our communication. Like even today, I was the curious party and the other party was not. They weren't curious about, hey, when you wanted to shoot here, what did you think would happen? Or, hey, what what do you need to adjust in this moment?
00:25:00
Speaker
So the death of that curiosity meant the kind of severing and ending of a relationship, even to an email of going, hey, we've canceled your membership, which feels like overkill. um But in that moment, it's going, they were not interested in asking a question. They were interested in a very quick final statement.
00:25:18
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's a ah question invites more relationship, you know. yeah And if you want to end it, you know, you just make a statement. statement. Yeah. Even one that was copied and pasted from from elsewhere, potentially.
00:25:34
Speaker
um What do you do when you're managing conflict, when you're when you're dealing with another party and you think, I don't know, this person is toxic, they're a narcissist, you know, they they cannot be reasoned with, I cannot give in to them.
00:25:49
Speaker
Um, like, does that change things? Yeah. I mean, the idea of genuine curiosity is entered into in good faith. And so, yeah, there's a rule. If the other person is dangerous to you, a toxic, narcissistic person is not safe.
00:26:07
Speaker
the The side that you will find with them is not one in which there is a win-win. They're always looking to singularly win. This is where we get this idea of zero-sum thinking, right? Right. Like,
00:26:18
Speaker
They're thinking the only way they win is if I lose. I have to lose for them to win. right and um And so when you recognize that, when there's a a complete lack of empathy and and curiosity, I would say you need to start looking for other spaces.
00:26:34
Speaker
And luckily, that didn't happen today. I didn't feel like somebody was completely lacking in empathy you know, at the end, they lacked some curiosity. But they genuinely, for most people, want them to be be served well. But we have, you know, we've all been in situations, whether it's work relationships or personal ones, which all relationships are personal, but ones outside of the workplace where you're like, oh, I can't remember the last time. And this is probably the most heartbreaking thing to me when I realized this in forming new relationships. Yeah.
00:27:02
Speaker
I can't remember the last time you asked me a question.
00:27:08
Speaker
Sorry.
00:27:11
Speaker
Trying. What do you mean? Who are you talking about? i sorry good good sure No, I mean, but it is the formation of almost all of my best friendships are there is this continual um give and take. And it's never a perfect balance. You're never asking the same depth or a number of questions. But there's a genuine sense that on the other side of me is a person who's going, I wonder what it's like to live in your space. or what you're experiencing. And you're right, when you find a truly narcissistic person and truly toxic person, they don't have the ability in that moment. I think curiosity is a muscle. I think everybody could develop it, but they don't have the emotional wherewithal or desire to learn about you
00:27:52
Speaker
That's a place where you need to start planning the process of your exit into a different space. So the first part in a working relationship typically comes with some sort of mediation. Be like, hey, I need another manager or I need another colleague. Are you seeing what I'm seeing or am I missing this? Are they truly curious? But we've got so much emotional baggage between us, I can't see it because I'm just mad at them before we even start the conversation.
00:28:12
Speaker
Oh, that's a weird mirror. I'm the one who's not being curious and I'm forcing that on them. But typically, if you get real levels of narcissism and and real sense of a lack of curiosity, your gut's probably right. And it's a good place to start going, hey, when's the last time you asked me a question?
00:28:30
Speaker
And if you can't even do that, then you need other people to help you. Is that a real question that you would ask somebody? When's the last time you asked me a question? Is that a way to sort of invite some empathy or is that just a reflection? Yeah, I would be careful not to make it feel like cornering, like, hey, when's the last time you asked me a question, butthole? It would probably, the the way that I would form that a phrase, I'd be like, hey, I'd love for you to ask me a question about you, about me that's on your mind.
00:28:54
Speaker
I can't remember the last time I heard butthole
The Power of Good Questions
00:28:56
Speaker
in a conversation. I think it was 97, 98. I just went to a Weezer concert, so I'm still in that frame of mind. So I'm like, oh, butthole's a good one. Yeah, yeah. Beavis and Butthead. Yeah, yeah. love What I hear you saying is whatever room you're in, bring a good question and always be kind of trying to find a better question.
00:29:20
Speaker
I think of, you know, we've talked about this before, you and I, like big rooms, small rooms. My wife and I, this is all of her credit. um But we came up with this saying. she She said it to me one time when I was um about to make a decision that was not in our best interest, and the best interest of our family.
00:29:40
Speaker
And um she said, we don't make big decisions in small rooms. You know, was in this... Small room. There were lawyers present. It was a serious decision. Have you ever been in any legal mediation? ah They put it's like it's like, a you know, interrogation. They put you in a room and they try to just beat you down. You're all day long and eventually you give into some bad deal. That's that's what mediation is.
00:30:02
Speaker
And i was in this room and and I had to, like, get up, go for a walk. you know, get out of the room because you get kind of cornered in these small spaces and you start thinking more small.
00:30:13
Speaker
And I think when what whatever size room you're in, a question sort of expands as the space. So if you're in a space where, um you know, where somebody is not inviting your question, you should always bring questions into those rooms is what I'm hearing.
00:30:29
Speaker
But if there's just like no curiosity, if your curiosity is not being met with our other curiosity, You might need to go find in a room. 100%. And the inverse of that is also interestingly very true. You need small rooms to ask big questions.
00:30:44
Speaker
Because in conflict, what you'll see, like, people who haven't yet developed a great sense of their own emotional intelligence will throw out big questions in big rooms, just hoping for a reaction, hoping somebody to take them seriously. But you typically need, like a smaller room where people are going, oh, this is serious. This is of value. And there's three or four people in the room going, hey, there's some conflict here. Because, you know, you might have been in a meeting once with 20 employees or 100 and somebody will throw out something that they know is fractious in a big room. That's only inspiring more conflict. If you want resolution, you need a smaller room where people are for you and with you, and they're holding the weight of that thing and going, we will take this thing seriously. Because a lot of times we throw great questions out in the wrong spaces. yeah And so it's important that I don't think you make the decisions in small rooms. I think you need those big spaces to to think. But I think the inverse is true, is that sometimes you need small spaces for big questions.
00:31:44
Speaker
Because we know this, right? The best questions or conversations you've probably ever had are with your spouse, just one-on-one. That's a small container. Yeah, it's a space. It's a bed, it's on a date, you know, a living room of a friend kind of thing. What's that mayor line like? I just want to lie here as the mattress spins on its axis. Like the whole world is just contained in this little rectangle. I just want to be here with you and let everything else spin around it. That's because her body was a wonderland.
00:32:11
Speaker
That's right. Or in my case, my buddy and I wrote the song Your Body Is Not a Wonderland that will never get released because it is ah awful. But probably pretty good. and n so the good one bill anyway In its own weird Al Yankovic sort of way. We were going to try and sell it to him, but the moment has passed. Yeah.
00:32:31
Speaker
So that I think that the question to ask yourself and maybe invite somebody else into when you feel... the room getting sort of smaller around you, the conflict building um is, when was the last time you asked me a question?
00:32:51
Speaker
Or when was the last time I asked you a question? Like I love that thinking about um my relationship with my wife. It's like, are we in kind of a crunchy moment?
00:33:03
Speaker
um and And when was the last time I asked her a serious question about herself? You know, when did I try to invite some unknown by me piece of her kind of out? Let me see something from you that's that's you know maybe a little bit vulnerable. Yeah. And I love your word invitation, because the way I'd phrase the question for myself is, when's the last time I've asked a great question about her?
00:33:28
Speaker
The question I would pose to my wife is, hey, would you mind asking me a new question about me? Right. Because when sometimes can feel, you know, like an interrogation, like, hey, you're now under scrutiny, as opposed to, hey, what I need in this moment, or even what I would love or want from you, is would you mind asking me a new question about me? And then there becomes that invitation as opposed to an interrogation.
00:33:52
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that is one of the challenges with the lionizing of question asking period. If you're asking good questions, you're good. Like I've been in networking business contacts or somebody's like, so are you from? What do you do? It's just like, they're like, they're asking so many questions that you don't get to ask them questions. don't know if you've ever like been to lunch with somebody like that where it's like,
00:34:19
Speaker
I don't know, they're like scraping all of the marrow out of you. You know, it's like um ah it's not a conversation. It's not an invitation to connection. It's just like I'm trying to extract information out of you to a point that it's the exchange is inequitable. I actually feel at the end of a conversation like that, like I owe the person something like I've been in, you know, can meetings, connections where um I felt like they were just pummeling me with questions and I felt like demeaned and diminished mostly because I didn't come with my A game.
00:34:54
Speaker
I felt shame like, oh, I should have like been more prepared or something. And I've friends, you know, say to me, e didn't really come with any questions. What was what was up with that? I was like, I thought we were just, hey, nap. key It'd be like you being like, you know, we're 15 minutes in this. You haven't asked me any questions. Like, I'm sorry. im you yeah I love the the vulnerability of like, hey, I'm feeling like this is a little bit one sided.
00:35:19
Speaker
And I just wanted you to ask me a question about my myself. So i i I love this mostly because I think there's one last great idea around conflict that we haven't unpacked yet. And that's silence when not weaponized is so helpful.
00:35:36
Speaker
A lot of times you'll hear in these sales techniques, like just to ask them a question and like, don't break eye contact or use it. And it's like, okay, well that's, you you weaponized silence. right But I think if you ask a question that's more interesting, a bigger question than,
Curiosity and Connection: A Deeper Dive
00:35:50
Speaker
hey, where are you from? And then not listen to the answer.
00:35:53
Speaker
Your silence is a gift to the other person that says, I give you all of this space. Write whatever story, paint whatever picture, it's all yours. And I'm reminded, and I don't know who said it and you probably do, is um silence is the first language of God and everything since has been a poor translation.
00:36:12
Speaker
And it's such a gift to say, hey man, I would just love to know in the last four weeks, what's bringing you life? What's really interesting to you? what What have you discovered about yourself in the last year that you're like, I'm so glad I found that out about myself.
00:36:28
Speaker
That's such a big question that if I immediately went to, A, and do you prefer peanut butter or jelly? Like, I didn't give any silence. I didn't give any space. I didn't actually respect you enough or care about you enough to give you time. And so the two things that are needed in any sort of conflict is, am I willing to ask a better, bigger question that might get messy?
00:36:48
Speaker
And two, am I willing to give you the silence and space requisite to answer a question that big, to go on that journey together? And the path towards moving from conflict to connection is being willing to do both of those things. Mm-hmm.
00:37:04
Speaker
What I like about what you do, which i think I mean, I do think it is a muscle. I think you're, you know, you you have flexed your curiosity muscle a bit in many years.
00:37:18
Speaker
um You did that to me a while back. I was feeling kind of like, ah you know, and you're like, what's bringing you life right now? and i was like, this a stupid throwaway question, idiot, curious coach. Screw this, guys.
00:37:33
Speaker
And I was like grumpy. i like People will go, hey, Jeff, what do you need? That's a question we're going to ask in a little bit. What do you need? I was like, money. What do you mean, what do i need? It's like, don't give me this nonsense trying to help. Send me money. You want help me? Send me money. or Half a million dollars a year probably gets me a new answer. A dollar, $20, $50. Show me you So just put, um, Jeff's Venmo. Yeah. Yeah. Look right here. I'm one of those cars with the Venmo thing on the back. Venmo me. I don't know why. i Just do it.
00:38:04
Speaker
You have cash. Give it to me. Yes. How can I help? That's how you can help. What do I need? Money. um yeah you said, you know, what's bringing you joy or something like that. And I, I think I said something like, i don't know, listening to like vinyl records, you know, was like a two word answer.
00:38:21
Speaker
And I think something you do really well is the follow up question. And I think the silence is good. It invites, um ah you know, some some openness.
00:38:32
Speaker
And and then the follow up question, the next question that you ask, because you can only ask one great question at a time and you don't have to start with a great question. and Start with the best question that you can and then keep asking better questions. But I think your conversation is the quality of a conversation is is dictated in part by how well you can keep asking good questions, right? I mean, that's a date, that's relationship, that's a sales or marketing process. It's the ability to stay in touch and in contact with the person that keeps it going, yeah right?
00:39:04
Speaker
ah We just walked away from a conflict where like, ah frankly, I think you were giving, giving, giving, the other side was wasn't really. And you just, you go and take a conversation so far when the other party isn't willing to converse and connect. But I said, mom you know, vinyl records. And you were like, oh, cool. That's interesting.
00:39:24
Speaker
What is it about, you know listening to vinyl that um is lighting you up? You know, is it the experience? Is it the sound? Is it all of it? And I think in that moment, I was like, this is not a BS, hey, how are you text that's not like, that's going to get like a cool or awesome, bro. Like, check out this thing I just posted. Get your support or whatever. You know, like those kinds of like, hey, man, how you doing? Really, this is what I need from you. This is what i need from you, or what I really need is for you to say, hey, how are you doing? And I'm going to unload all my trauma on you. I think the kids call it a trauma dump.
00:39:59
Speaker
Seriously. This is just a trauma dump. They were baiting me for a trauma dump. They just wanted to go, here's everything wrong. so would that be the laxative that prompts the trauma dump? Yeah, that's right. yeah that is the lack of the press yeah um So I think the follow-up question, the next question um ah following the science silence or whatever I think is um an important part of the process. It's not just um come up with one great question. It's ask one great question at a time and the conversation can only go so far as you are willing to keep asking questions.
00:40:35
Speaker
Yeah. And that makes me think of Warren Buffett's line when a you know reporter once asked him, hey, Warren, how much money is enough money? And Warren, arguably one of the richest people on the planet, goes, just a little bit more.
00:40:49
Speaker
And as weird, gross, great, whatever your status on, your feeling on that is, ah it highlights this idea around curiosity, which is how much curiosity is enough?
00:41:00
Speaker
Just a little bit more. Because, you know, my thought around this is the most important question is the next one.
00:41:09
Speaker
because we've connected and how do we connect more deeply? You give space, then you ask another question. They ask a question, give space. as So it's this beautiful cyclical thing that just keeps on getting deeper and deeper and deeper.
00:41:21
Speaker
And in a moment like today, the so circle was interrupted. Okay, I'll go create that connection with somebody else. But I think it's also important as we think about conflict, I'm not making assumptions or judgments about these people and going, oh, you were out to get me.
00:41:37
Speaker
You were a person with a moment of scarcity who made a choice that I wouldn't have made. And I'm not going to carry the weight of judgment towards you or anger or resentment because I can go be connected to somebody else now. And hopefully you will connect better with somebody else than me.
00:41:52
Speaker
And that's how we move from conflict, even when we're no longer connected. So, until the next question. Until the next question.