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Episode 15: What If the Mountain Was Never About the Summit? A conversation with Matt Chenard
23 Plays1 month ago
Matt Chenard lost $1.2 million dollars, his wife's nursing job, their life savings, and nearly his health. And he'll tell you straight up, it was the best thing that ever happened to him. Not because he's a masochist. Because it was the moment he finally stopped confusing a good thing for the ultimate thing.
In this episode, Matt and I dig into what it actually means to build a life around mission instead of achievement, why your habits are either deposits or withdrawals whether you make them consciously or not, how a penguin walking toward a mountain alone went viral for a reason, and why the most dangerous version of success is the one that quietly becomes your identity.
Matt also shares the one question that has restructured every major decision in his life, and it's only three letters. Why. Not once. Over and over again, until the real answer surfaces.
Oh, and somewhere in all of this he's also sitting in a frozen tub with an ax. In winter. In Canada. On purpose. And it might be the most brilliant piece of content strategy I've ever seen.
So here's what I want to leave you with. You're building something. Maybe something significant. But when's the last time you stopped long enough to ask yourself, if this thing disappeared tomorrow, would you still know exactly who you are?
Find Matt: (If he is not cold plunging!)
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Transcript
Introduction to 'One Great Question'
00:00:01
Carl Lubbe
Hey friends, we are back with another episode of One Great Question, and I am incredibly excited because me and Mr. Matt Chouinard don't get a terrible amount of time together.
00:00:12
Carl Lubbe
And we were kind of joking about before we got started here, it's like, isn't this a funny thing that we do in the year 2026?
00:00:12
Matt Chenard
Yep.
00:00:19
Carl Lubbe
It's like, I bet you if we lived in the same place and we're geographically close, we're probably friends. And hey, so because we live in different parts of the country, you know what we should do? We should have a great conversation and then record it for strangers. And then that's what we call a podcast now. So welcome to that. And Matt, thanks for being on.
00:00:38
Matt Chenard
Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks, Carl. And podcasts are probably one of my favorite ways to intake information, just people having conversation. I'm excited to have a conversation with you.
00:00:49
Matt Chenard
And hopefully it's a benefit to your listeners.
00:00:49
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Yeah, and at this point, sorry, people listening and or watching, it's a side benefit. Me and Matt just kind wanted to hang out and here we go.
00:00:57
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:00:58
Carl Lubbe
We get to do that, you know, with you guys along for the
Curiosity in Leadership
00:01:01
Carl Lubbe
ride. So, Matt, one of the things that we've been doing this season in the podcast is we kind of have these three questions. And so the conversation can go anywhere.
00:01:10
Carl Lubbe
But one of the things that I do in my work is I talk to leaders and I try to have almost like a pattern interrupt. And I know you're big on social. And so that's a thing in social media world.
00:01:19
Carl Lubbe
But I try and do it almost in their thinking because these are grownups. Right. They have like serious jobs and they do serious work and serious money at play. And then I come in and say, hey, going to say maybe the weirdest thing a consultant or a coach may have said to you in the last 10 years, which is I'm on a rescue mission for your inner eight year old.
00:01:38
Carl Lubbe
And they're like, yep, you're right. That's as weird as you promised it would be. And then my thesis around this is I think if we could get powerful people to get more curious, like the world would be a much funner place. It would be a lot safer place. It would be a lot more engaging place.
Matt's Mission and Personal Journey
00:01:54
Carl Lubbe
And so the first question I would like to ask a serious man like Matt Chouinard, who owns a big business and has a large following and has a great consulting and coaching space as well, is what would the eight-year-old version of Matt be really excited about that is happening in current day Matt's life?
00:02:15
Carl Lubbe
Like what would they be wowed about or impressed, proud, you could use those words, but I'm a little bit more playful with this. Like what would they be like stoked about in your world?
00:02:24
Matt Chenard
Yeah, I like that question. I think it'd be two things. So I just updated my logo for my program, which is called Man on the Mission, which will be around my personal brand too.
00:02:33
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. OK. Yeah.
00:02:36
Matt Chenard
It's this compass with a mountain in the middle. And the reason that would excite eight-year-old Matt is remember driving through the Canadian Rockies for the first time in my life. I must have been eight or something close to that.
00:02:49
Matt Chenard
And just seeing these big jagged rocks coming out of the earth, like, what is this? And looking out the window and thinking, these are beautiful. These are amazing.
00:03:01
Matt Chenard
And then even to this day, whenever we drive to... Banff area for those who are familiar. I keep looking at like, Julissa, check this mountain out. That Julissa is my wife. Julissa, check this mountain out.
00:03:12
Matt Chenard
Yep. Yep. She's very, she's very patient. Yes, Matt, we've seen these before. And so, Just tying that back to the day, I made that my logo because I work with Christian men in their life and business to help them become more disciplined so that they can have stronger marriages, so they can get in great physical shape, scale their business while gaining back time, be great steadfast fathers, and deepen their relationship Lord.
00:03:42
Matt Chenard
And the mechanism to that is having this mission. And this is good timing. I'm not sure if you watched that video that was going viral. I know you said you're not Instagram too much, but this penguin walking towards the mountain, did you see that video?
00:03:54
Carl Lubbe
Okay.
00:03:55
Matt Chenard
It just went uber viral.
00:03:57
Matt Chenard
It's this penguin that went off the path of these other penguins that were going to food, were going to the water, and it just turned, kept turning towards this mountain way off in the distance.
00:04:08
Matt Chenard
And this is the mindset that I had with my logo is we need a mission. We need something to continue to pursue have a purpose so that we don't fall into complacency, that we don't get off mission.
00:04:17
Carl Lubbe
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
00:04:26
Matt Chenard
And taking all that in and saying, okay, when I was eight years old, this picture of the mountain, now it's part of my brand. And it's a part of mechanism in which I help people and how to use their God-given gifts, talents, time, money, energy, resources, and stories.
00:04:43
Matt Chenard
And then also the side part of that, my eight-year-old self would be that I get to, I'm in a vocation right now where I get to experiment and ideate and play every
The Power of Questions in Leadership
00:04:54
Matt Chenard
single day.
00:04:55
Matt Chenard
Like using things like Claude Code to build a whole dashboard in a week that would have taken months and months before and cost $400,000, couple of coffee,
00:04:56
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:05:07
Matt Chenard
10 hours my time and it's there. So I think that's what my eight year old self would be. Yeah, it would be pretty interesting to him.
00:05:15
Carl Lubbe
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, isn't it the stunning thing that all of that is wrapped around this idea of possibility? It's the idea of like, what could happen if I imagine bigger, the bigger quest, as opposed to, oh, well, what should happen because I have to do this thing?
00:05:23
Matt Chenard
Yep.
00:05:29
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:05:33
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:05:34
Carl Lubbe
And one of the things in our work that we talk a lot about is, and I don't know that I'd done this before, but about five years ago, Jeff Goins, who's on the previous season of the podcast, who is fantastic writer, he just asked me flat out, he's like, hold on, so you've built your whole company around word called curiosity. And then you say the whole goal is to ask better questions. And he's like, so what's the root of the word question?
00:06:03
Carl Lubbe
And I was like, oh, you mean like in Latin? He's like, no, think like an eight year old. What's the root in the word question? And I was like, poor Jeff still has to keep on coaching me.
00:06:14
Carl Lubbe
He's like, just start knocking letters off until you get to a different word. And I was like, okay, take off the N, question. That's not a word, quest. Oh, so the root of the word question is quest.
00:06:23
Matt Chenard
Right.
00:06:26
Carl Lubbe
And we then had one of my favorite lunches I've ever had with anybody where we go, oh, Because my contention is people aren't asking good questions anymore. It's like we're living in the death of nuance and like really great conversation because we just have stopped asking bigger and better questions, mostly because we've decided to draw lines in the sand and go, I'm for this or against that. And like, you know, as opposed to, I don't know, let's ask a new question.
00:06:50
Carl Lubbe
And I think that comes back to your mountain is going, oh, we think for all people, we've stopped going on bigger quests because we're asking smaller questions.
00:06:58
Matt Chenard
Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm.
00:07:00
Carl Lubbe
And then it just becomes a cyclical thing. We don't ask big questions because there's not big purpose or big hope or a big mission. And so because the quests get smaller, the questions get smaller. then when the questions get smaller, the quests get even smaller.
00:07:12
Carl Lubbe
And it's just this cyclical thing. And so, you know, the next thing is, you know, when's the last time you asked or were asked a great question that you feel like kind of changed things?
The Fulfillment in the Journey
00:07:25
Matt Chenard
I like that because as you're talking, it made me think that mountain analogy, you're pursuing that mountain. And when you reach the peak of that mountain, whatever that is in your life,
00:07:25
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:07:38
Matt Chenard
You enjoy the peak, you enjoy the summit, but you're also looking at that mountain in the corner of your eye. Like what's behind that mountain?
00:07:44
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:07:45
Matt Chenard
What's on the top of that mountain? And then we start to realize that the actual fulfillment and joy is not on the peak itself. Yes, that is part of it, but it's the journey you know you took to get to that peak.
00:08:02
Matt Chenard
That's the actual fulfillment. fulfillment and joy feeling part. And I talked about this on a reel yesterday is, favorite books of the bible is ecclesiastes and this whole idea of everything is heavy it's a vapor here today gone tomorrow and you can't find full joy in these things good conversation drink food work wisdom pleasures but you can enjoy them for what they are so enjoying the journey for what it is and knowing that the ups and downs
00:08:23
Carl Lubbe
Mm-hmm.
00:08:36
Matt Chenard
is the part of the most beneficial part of going on a journey to that new mountain, that new quest, as you mentioned, and not to skip over that part because that's the refining moments that actually make a difference.
00:08:50
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Well, I'd love to hear Matt more about, you know, kind of what were those defining moments. So it sounds like, you know, a large part of your history was or
Matt's Background and Growth
00:09:00
Carl Lubbe
is in Canada. So for those of us who may not follow you as intently as we should on social, maybe you can give us a rundown on, you know, kind of Matt's story, origin space and where you find yourself today.
00:09:14
Matt Chenard
Yeah, I would say that we're really well known for hockey, but I guess after Olympics, you guys are a little bit more well known.
00:09:29
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:09:37
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:09:37
Carl Lubbe
then you're like, well, we're going to we're going to do that. OK, got it. So but I mean, a fun match, win, lose or draw.
00:09:44
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:09:44
Carl Lubbe
Like that was that was a fun time.
00:09:46
Matt Chenard
Yeah. So being from Canada, mean, grew up playing hockey. Most people do here from the age of five to 21.
00:09:51
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:09:54
Matt Chenard
And the question of what want to do when you grew up was kind of riddled. My parents never pressured me in any way, shape or form. But that question is always asked, hey, what do to when you grew up? I like, I don't know. I have no clue. So I played hockey competitively.
00:10:08
Matt Chenard
And then I, quote unquote, retired. I had seven concussions. So I figured I should have a... the ability to have a good conversation with wife in the future. And, but that was always in of mind. What am I going to do for work?
00:10:21
Matt Chenard
I went to college, did some biblical studies, didn't get anything there. Went to trades work, did some electrical work, did some construction work, hurt my back really bad.
00:10:33
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:34
Matt Chenard
when I was lifting with my ego because I wanted to be competitive in CrossFit. That had become my new competitive lane after hockey. Hurt my back.
00:10:45
Matt Chenard
And what I would say is, I talk about this, this is my verbiage I use a lot, is it would be, it would as an idol in my life. I was pursuing this thing. I was putting my ultimate goal my hope, my security in this mechanism, hurt myself. Okay. Well, I can't work anymore in construction. So I got my training certificate at the same time. We were newly married in 2012.
00:11:07
Matt Chenard
My wife was going through an eating disorder, exercise addiction, like fairly severe one and talking about that word idle. So we've talked about this before. She had this like, pursuit of achievement and control when things were stressful.
00:11:20
Matt Chenard
So that's going on. I'm overworking out. I start to, I become a personal trainer. I'm really enjoying it because I always enjoyed training for hockey and I found a passion for that training people making a whopping $900 to $1,500 a month at the time, but really enjoying it.
00:11:37
Matt Chenard
My wife going through school and then partnered up on a gym.
00:11:38
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:11:43
Matt Chenard
We co-founded what was then CrossFit Camrose. And I realized you can actually be an entrepreneur as a vocation. You can create things, you can build things that people can enjoy and can solve problems for them.
00:11:55
Matt Chenard
So over time, I shifted my focus to less of the facilitation of training and more realizing I enjoy creating businesses, creating teams, creating building things that were in my mind that people can now use touch and feel
Adversity and Identity Realization
00:12:12
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:12:12
Matt Chenard
and realizing this is actually a career quote unquote career path.
00:12:16
Matt Chenard
And I was all through that process of doing that myself and 2020 hit. Everyone knows what happened in 2020 here in Alberta. It was really difficult.
00:12:28
Matt Chenard
All in all, a gym we were paying rent on, we couldn't use for seven months total. We had to open close five times. My wife lost her nine-year nursing job, lost the ability for We lost all our life savings, went into big debt.
00:12:44
Matt Chenard
All in all, I did the math. It was $1.2 million. We ended up losing along with her job and any kind of maternity leave for a future kiddo. And going back to what was talking about earlier, this idol thing, I had become prideful in my ability to problem solve.
00:13:03
Matt Chenard
And in the back of my head, there was always this thought, was like, Why do athletes give glory to God? But not in like this aggressive tone in my mind, but just actually a curious question.
00:13:14
Matt Chenard
Why, why do we, like if I'm doing the work, if I'm problem solving, why do they do this? And then during that period of 2020 to 2023, there was a refining moment in this process of realizing, oh, I'm not actually in as much control as I think I am.
00:13:14
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:13:31
Matt Chenard
And it's more important that I have the ability to handle these stressors and take action in a direction I think I should go rather than saying I can control the outcome.
00:13:44
Matt Chenard
Because in Lord's Prayer, it's daily bread, thanking him for daily bread. Well, daily bread essence is the farmer had to take the wheat, that someone had to package up to the grocery store.
00:13:58
Matt Chenard
So my gifts, my ability as an entrepreneur I didn't create them. I'm simply stewarding them. And to have that knowledge, that almost epiphany moment of, oh, I can have success.
00:14:12
Matt Chenard
I can pursue things. But I was becoming egotistical and prideful in my ability to problem solve and build things and thinking that I was doing it and not realizing and pointing back to actually God gave me gifts and talents.
00:14:24
Matt Chenard
And this is a wake up moment for me to be, I'm still going to pursue excellence. I'm still going to build. I'm still going try the best I can to be the best person I can be, but going hold it with open hands and taking this all, all these refining moments of my hurting my back, losing all this money, my wife going through what she did and realizing at the core, all these good gifts are from God.
00:14:36
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Hmm.
00:14:50
Matt Chenard
But it's when we make them an ultimate thing in our life that it becomes dangerous. An idol is something, a good thing that you make an ultimate thing. So when I made my career, my ability as an entrepreneur an ultimate, my wife made her fitness an ultimate, I made my fitness an ultimate, it became misordered.
00:15:08
Matt Chenard
And we are to love Lord our God with all our hearts, mind, soul and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself, closest neighbor being our family.
00:15:08
Carl Lubbe
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:15:15
Matt Chenard
And I had this all out of whack. And my wife did early on too. So now that's really what I'm helping through all this process. That's what I'm helping entrepreneurs do. Christian men do is reorder their passions, reorder their love loves so that when they pursue something, they can pursue it with excellence, but they're not,
00:15:36
Matt Chenard
vulnerable to losing who they are? Because if, I mean, you mentioned people listening to this are high level entrepreneurs in the marketplace in some way, shape form.
00:15:47
Matt Chenard
If you are successful in your business, what if you lose that? Who are you? Can you look at yourself in the mirror and say, if I lose this thing, I'm gonna show up as Matt, the father, Matt, the husband, Matt, the person stewarding his fitness the same way tomorrow?
00:16:01
Matt Chenard
If not, like you can grieve these things. I'm not saying you can't grieve or have emotions. But if you can't confidently say you're be same person tomorrow, if you lose this thing, you might have something that's become an ultimate in your life.
00:16:13
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Yeah. And so dangerous, right? Because like you said, control is an illusion.
Illusion of Control and Identity
00:16:20
Carl Lubbe
And so if you give that other thing control over you, then the illusion is almost like a dialogue now. Oh, I think you're the thing that will help keep me safe. And now I'm going to give all of my effort and energy, time and attention towards you. And then what happens when that thing fails me?
00:16:36
Matt Chenard
Mm-hmm.
00:16:36
Carl Lubbe
In our work at Curiosity, we talk about this with leaders curiosity. your idea cannot be your identity. And so whether it's the idea of being CrossFit coach or being consultant or even to the point of I tell them, hey, we're going to move in between personal professional because your brain doesn't know the difference. So my job as your executive coach is to help your brain thrive in both spaces.
00:17:00
Carl Lubbe
And, you know, if your first adjective is husband or dad or entrepreneur, what if any of those things are taken from you? Like you said, then my identity is gone.
00:17:08
Matt Chenard
This is...
00:17:11
Carl Lubbe
And it was an idea that then became my identity. And you have to find something that identity space that's deeper, larger meaning, larger purpose, larger calling, kind of the mountain worth climbing and it's interesting think i've mentioned him on a previous podcast and so at some point this is just going to be me referring to this comedian whose lines i like but there's a comedian out there jimmy carr who talks about life is not about the pursuit of happiness it's the happiness in the pursuit because in this idea it's going you know when we pursue something we never do it in a vacuum there's always community there's always people around you know
00:17:43
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:17:46
Carl Lubbe
And so it's going, how am I including, how am I drawing in all of these things from all of these people? Because when you go back and talk to, you know, you were a hockey player we're talking about, you know, Canada's Olympic team.
00:18:00
Carl Lubbe
Those guys may talk about that gold medal game. But if they're sitting around for the next 20 years and only talking about that, it's probably not from a healthy place. Most of them will be talking about their teammates and how much they miss practice and how much they miss the gym and how much they miss the plane and train and car rides together with these other people.
00:18:13
Matt Chenard
Yes.
00:18:19
Carl Lubbe
It's all in that journey and in that pursuit. And if there's not enough of that purpose, there's not big enough problem worth solving in that space. Like you said, people will then become complacent and they find new ideas to become their identity. And then they just jump from idea to idea to idea. In the same way we talk about like serial entrepreneurship is a really interesting concept.
00:18:42
Carl Lubbe
As long as again, you're not changing your identity every time you pick up a new idea a new company.
00:18:46
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:18:47
Carl Lubbe
Because that's like actually insanely dangerous because they, and expensive.
00:18:51
Matt Chenard
And expensive.
00:18:53
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
Storytelling Through Cold Plunging
00:18:55
Carl Lubbe
So as you're thinking through this and you come into the gym space and now you're helping these entrepreneurs, was there a big shift? Because you and I came across each other through a mutual friend when I think I was teaching to a mastermind or a group of people and then you and I were connected. And then it was really funny when I then went and connected with you on socials, which again, admittedly I'm terrible at, It was funny. had like four other friends who were not in that room who all followed you. And I was like, oh, that's cool. Matt has like got to reach. And then I go and watch. And you're doing...
00:19:28
Carl Lubbe
the most horrific thing that I could possibly imagine. And I think it might be a Canadian disease that has been exported because the only other person I know that does this with this regularity and commitment is also lovely Canadian who has been a, was a client and now been a friend of mine for last five years. And this is the art form and the torture that is happening cold plunging.
00:19:51
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:19:51
Carl Lubbe
And so this is kind of a thing that, you know, you have used as a, as a, as a medium to tell a much more elevated, interesting story. Ice and cold plunging is interesting in and of itself, but I feel like you've masterfully used the function or the form of that to function as, Hey, let's just have a coffee real quick while you're watching me do an insane thing that Carl, you would never, uh,
00:20:14
Carl Lubbe
comply to. I would never say, yeah, I'm going to do that. And I appreciate all the benefits. And every friend of mine who's gotten deeply into like Carl, it changed your life. And I was like, I get it. I've done it twice. I appreciate it. changed my life for that day. And I love that for you.
00:20:27
Carl Lubbe
But how did you come into that space? And tell us a little bit about how that kind of became thing where you got to tell this more deep and interesting narrative to you.
00:20:36
Matt Chenard
First, yeah, I appreciate, want to share that you noticed what I'm doing. I mean, essentially, I'm sharing the cold plunge because it is captivating.
00:20:48
Matt Chenard
Not that I'm a captivating person, but it piques interest,
00:20:51
Carl Lubbe
I would disagree with that. But yes, it does both things.
00:20:53
Matt Chenard
Right.
00:20:53
Carl Lubbe
You are captivating in a torturous, captivating environment.
00:20:57
Matt Chenard
Using the word curiosity, that's what all good storytellers do. They create a curiosity loop.
00:21:02
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:21:02
Matt Chenard
So when I'm doing cold exposure, there's multiple curiosity loops happening that I'm thinking about. So I'm walking up with an ax to this tub that people who know, no one's who's seen my video before.
00:21:14
Matt Chenard
Like, what is this guy doing? I'm in shorts in winter.
00:21:18
Carl Lubbe
What are you doing, Matt?
00:21:19
Matt Chenard
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:19
Carl Lubbe
In what world is that the right idea?
00:21:20
Matt Chenard
So, and on social media, I mean, Short form content is junk food. YouTube podcasts is more of a good meal. Like people are gonna listen to this. They're ready. We don't have to hook people in really, kind of.
00:21:36
Matt Chenard
But in short form, you have three seconds. If you don't capture someone's attention, they're gonna move on. And at first I didn't love that idea. But then if I realize that everyone else is playing this game, good content, bad content.
00:21:47
Matt Chenard
So there could be eyes out there that are watching these poor content, let's say bad content because they can captivate them.
00:21:47
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:21:55
Matt Chenard
So I need to play the game too. If I think I have something to share that could benefit someone. So curiosity loop, there's one, what's this guy wearing? What's he doing? Why is he walking up there? There's a text hook on there.
00:22:06
Matt Chenard
That's the second part. There's a verbal hook and then there's the visual hook. But all that to say, started it because I knew felt like I had something to share.
00:22:17
Matt Chenard
I had truth to share that I think could benefit people. And I knew that me just, it would take time, but just talking in front of the camera isn't anything different than everyone else, what they're doing.
00:22:29
Matt Chenard
So I said, okay, I need to do something different. At the time I was doing cold exposure because I had basically burnt out as an entrepreneur, that whole identity piece again. And I developed chronic hives all over my body, went to the doctor, ER multiple times, emergency room multiple times because my chest was hurting.
00:22:48
Matt Chenard
I had painful hives on my hands, my soles, my feet, all these different things that there's probably... multiple aspects to this, but it was almost a manifestation of burnout of these things. So I started doing these practices, eating better, spending more time in the word and the Bible and then cold exposure. found this can lower systemic inflammation. So I started doing that my own and there was a lot of other health benefits to it.
00:23:15
Matt Chenard
At the same time, I thought I had ideas to share to people, but I was, really scared. was scared of what people would think of me sharing stuff.
00:23:27
Matt Chenard
So at the time would post, create a post for social media. I'd read, I read it through, I'd send it to my wife. She'd read it through that. Yeah, Matt, you're good to post it. And then sometimes I wouldn't even post it.
00:23:39
Matt Chenard
Because I was nervous of what people think.
00:23:39
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:23:39
Carl Lubbe
That's great.
00:23:41
Matt Chenard
Did I say something wrong? How they think of me? thinking of that one person who might be judging me. So I made a commitment about eight years ago. I'm going post every single day. And one of those ways going to post is in the cold tub because it's going to invite judgment.
00:23:56
Matt Chenard
And it has.
00:23:57
Matt Chenard
Most definitely. It was my practice to overcome this fear. So over time, I got better at storytelling, understanding storytelling. And then I start to realize that if I truly am grounded in my identity in Christ, like if I don't need to prove anything to everyone, right? If I can't gain anything in terms of my salvation from this world, then what am I so afraid of?
00:24:20
Matt Chenard
If someone says that,
00:24:20
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:24:23
Matt Chenard
I don't know you've said some really funny things. If someone says something mean to me, yes, I'm not going to say it doesn't cause me to pause for a second, but honestly, it's not as big a deal anymore because I have this practice field of purposely doing things that invite judgment.
Celebrating Wins and Impact
00:24:41
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Well, and two in that, I would imagine if you've been doing that for eight years, I could only imagine the amount of messages people are sending you like, hey, that idea brought me some hope and some darkness, right?
00:25:04
Carl Lubbe
I'm just kidding. wouldn't have done it.
00:25:06
Matt Chenard
And I'm glad you said that, Carl, because I know I probably interrupt your flow there, but I think I've become desensitized a little bit to the good messages.
00:25:08
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:25:11
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:25:18
Matt Chenard
And I think our brains work like that, right? We see danger, we see threats, and we see that first. But I probably, between comments and messages, a day of good things that have changed people's lives. Like someone a couple of years ago said, one of my videos saved their life, that they're thinking of doing something and changed that trajectory, which is a massive deal. Like I get goosebumps thinking about that right now, but think maybe I've become a little bit complacent or desensitized to the the actual impact. Cause for me on my side, I can't touch and feel that I'm posting it and it's going out into this ether and people are seeing it, but I don't really understand what's happening on the other side. lot of people watch, but don't say anything too.
00:25:59
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So it's interesting. have this practice with executives that I coach that I call the three and three exercise. And part of this is exactly what you're talking about. So one of the cheats that I have is that I just have a brother who's a world-class functional neurologist. And so he's told me all about how my brain all the brains work. And he's like, part of this is as you're talking about our fight, flight, or freeze, our survival mechanisms.
00:26:23
Carl Lubbe
The brain is a supercomputer and can go to pain astronomically faster than pleasure.
00:26:28
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:26:28
Carl Lubbe
This is why the one bad comment will outweigh the 99 good, because our brain is just cataloging, is there danger there? Like, am I under threat? And so because of that, one of the things that I'll do with executives is I'm telling them, hey, you guys are getting W's all the time that you're never cataloging.
00:26:46
Carl Lubbe
But you will have entire retreats over the L's that you or the team or the company or the P&L are taking. And so one of the first things I tell them is, you know, take a book kind like something actually tactile that you can use.
00:26:58
Carl Lubbe
And then at the end of every day, so if you wrap up your day at five, at 445, you've set a meeting with yourself for 15 minutes and you catalog three wins from the day. And it could be something as small as, man, I just, I had the world's greatest sandwich at lunch to, oh my gosh, somebody told me that they were going to take their life and didn't. So something from the minute to the miraculous.
00:27:21
Carl Lubbe
And then what happens is, I tell them do that every day for 30 days and then give yourself an hour at the end of that month. And now you will have 90 wins and you just sit in the presence of that and just read it and consume it.
00:27:33
Matt Chenard
Mm-hmm.
00:27:37
Carl Lubbe
And the beauty of that is it doesn't. It is never intended to be congratulatory or like self, you know, aggrandizing. The idea is going all of those wins required somebody else. It required your wife to go. Nope, that's a good one. And she encouraged me. It required an idea from somebody else to post in this way. It required somebody else who helped you learn. and sharpen your storytelling skills. And in the words of Snoop Dogg, I'd also like to thank me.
00:28:05
Carl Lubbe
Like I'm the person who went to the studio. I'm the person who did the thing. I'm the person who said yes. And so it's never either or, it's both and. It's this partnership. And so those moments of now 90 wins is a celebration of community. I said yes, and other people said yes, and look at this good quest we went on, and we scaled some part of the mountain, and the fun was in the scaling, not in the arriving.
00:28:27
Matt Chenard
Mm-hmm.
00:28:27
Matt Chenard
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:28:27
Carl Lubbe
And so, yeah, I mean, if you feel like in this season, maybe there's a little bit of that, it could be fun even to have your wife or a friend go back and be like, hey, would you do me a favor?
00:28:37
Carl Lubbe
Would you go grab 30 positive comments from the last month and just put them in a note somewhere, even if it's just screenshots, and one day, Just for four minutes, I'm not going look at my post or how it performed. I'm just going to look at comments and, hey, look at all the wins that this work is getting. Because we do, we have to remind our survival brain, because our brain is actually little bit of a jerk, because our brain is a supercomputer only wired for one thing, which is our survival. It's not for thriving. It's not for advancement. It's not for anything else. Just keep Matt or Carl alive.
00:29:07
Carl Lubbe
And so these moments where we get to go like, hey, the CEO is going to say this part is important and celebration is important because you cultivate what you celebrate. And so these are moments for that.
00:29:15
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:29:17
Carl Lubbe
So you've got a lot worth celebrating.
00:29:17
Matt Chenard
like that. Yeah, I agree.
00:29:21
Matt Chenard
Well, well said.
Costs of Success and Habit Investments
00:29:22
Carl Lubbe
So the other question in this space of hopefully good and better questions is, success is really expensive. Like, you know, you've succeeded at something that the bill would be too high for me.
00:29:34
Carl Lubbe
Like I can't, as a South African, the idea of walking out with an ax or a hammer and breaking ice on the top of this thing, that's a bill too high for Carl to pick. Now you put me in a sauna and maybe there's a sauna craze in the future and I can be in there and tell my story there.
00:29:50
Carl Lubbe
But the success of that, the bill would have been too high.
00:29:50
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:29:52
Carl Lubbe
And obviously I'm making jokes here because I know how beneficial it is. But if we pull that out a little bit, you know, you and I are fortunate enough to be around like probably really successful people in most people's eyes, whether it's the bank account or the fitness or the family or the business.
00:30:10
Carl Lubbe
And the question I like to ask, and so I'd love to ask you, Matt, is as you look at any and all successes up until this point in your life, and if you got to go back and go, oh, I can now in hindsight calculate the cost.
00:30:24
Carl Lubbe
Is there a cost that in this season that is maybe surprising to you? And would you pay it again?
00:30:32
Matt Chenard
To make sure I understood the question. So I'm looking back at things that I have done in quote unquote investing because we're talking about costs. So investing to reach a certain amount of success.
00:30:42
Matt Chenard
And if I look back at the byproduct, if I look to now the byproduct of that investment, would I do it again? Is that the question?
00:30:49
Carl Lubbe
It's great summary. Yes, sir.
00:30:53
Matt Chenard
I... this is actually part of, actually a big part of my program is people talk about habits and I call them deposits.
00:31:06
Carl Lubbe
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:31:07
Matt Chenard
And the reason I call them deposits is because every time you invest in something or don't invest in something, right? So inaction is still a habit, right? I can't say that If I don't work out today, it's actually still a habit.
00:31:24
Matt Chenard
I'm still making an investment or what I would call withdrawal from my fitness account. So I look at these habits as investments into your future self. So the reason many people fail to achieve quote unquote success in their minds, which would, I would reframe to reaching the goals they set for themselves, whether that's in their fitness, whether that's in their business, is because they lack the ability for delayed gratification.
00:31:54
Matt Chenard
So I really dislike cold exposure. I really dislike it. But based on patterns, based on what I know is true, I know it's good for me to an extent.
00:32:10
Matt Chenard
And I know posting to social media consistently will lead to something. So all I had to do in that moment is decide that if I'm consistent with this action, there's gonna be an outcome from it.
00:32:23
Matt Chenard
I don't know exactly what that looks like. So example, I didn't know that one of my videos sharing the gospel would get 10 million views almost. I had no clue.
00:32:32
Carl Lubbe
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:32:33
Matt Chenard
But if that was my expectation, I might not commit to the habit. But I know that the habit itself, the investment towards the quote unquote success, whatever area of life and mental, physical, spiritual, relational, professional, these five areas I talk about often,
00:32:49
Matt Chenard
When you make that investment, it's going to equate to something because you're either moving towards sickness or fitness in these areas. Now we're all moving towards sickness in some way, shape or form. We're all aging.
00:33:00
Matt Chenard
Death is inevitable, but I can prolong that. I can delay that. Right? So I'm married. I've been married for 14 years,
00:33:10
Matt Chenard
I think. Thank you. think this is a good example. Like let's say success in a marriage, let's define it as being really close friends and caring more about the other person than you care about yourself and being sacrificial like Christ was for the church. That's the definition of success.
00:33:10
Carl Lubbe
Congrats.
00:33:30
Matt Chenard
But what we can do, the moment I said I do, I could lock that in as, okay, I'm secure, I'm safe. And I could not talk to my wife every single day in deep, meaningful conversation. And I'm far from perfect at this.
00:33:45
Matt Chenard
I could not get her gifts anymore. I could not go on dates anymore because I'm quote unquote safe. There's a commitment. Nothing's gonna separate this. Although that's true and I believe in that commitment, that covenant,
00:33:59
Matt Chenard
what will happen is there'll be debt that is due and they'll come up in a way of becoming like roommates to each other.
00:34:07
Matt Chenard
So one day you'll both look up and be like, we feel really disconnected. And you'll try to point at every reason why. And maybe it's like we had an argument yesterday or maybe this happened in our life. But in reality, it's every failed investment from the past.
00:34:07
Carl Lubbe
Hmm.
00:34:23
Matt Chenard
So the byproduct of failed investments into your fitness from the past equates to achy joints, poor sleep, mental clutteredness, chronic diseases.
00:34:34
Matt Chenard
Like these all begin to develop into something, manifest into something in the future.
00:34:39
Carl Lubbe
That's great.
00:34:40
Matt Chenard
so all this to say I know I'm getting a long-winded in my my answer to this but
00:34:47
Matt Chenard
I don't think I would change any of my investments because I don't directly tie outcome to one investment. It's multiple deposits you're making.
00:34:59
Matt Chenard
And if you are living, so I'm trying my best to live into the day. So all I need to do is make the deposits I know I need to make in every area of life and the outcome will be the outcome and find enjoyment and fulfillment, joy and fulfillment in the today
00:35:10
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:35:14
Matt Chenard
And whatever the cost is, and if that cost is me sitting in cold exposure to reach, get attention, but that actually helps save someone's life or that helped build my program because my whole coaching program is built off of me sitting in the ice tub.
00:35:28
Matt Chenard
That's my livelihood, which is really cool to think about.
00:35:32
Carl Lubbe
Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. And what I love about this is there's in a curiosity with leaders, we talk about all leadership boils down to three
Key Aspects of Leadership
00:35:42
Carl Lubbe
things.
00:35:43
Carl Lubbe
I mean, it's a billion dollar industry. You know, you go down to your local Barnes and Noble, you buy 400 books on leadership in a blink of an eye and spend all this money.
00:35:50
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:35:50
Carl Lubbe
But it really comes down to three things. What problem are you willing to give your most expensive resource to, which is actually not time, it's attention. So what problem is worth giving your attention to?
00:36:03
Carl Lubbe
And then what solutions are worth giving your intention to? And then finally, what result or preferred future would you give your commitment to? And what I love about your answer is there's just such a deep sense of attention to a problem worth fixing, which is didn't just get married.
00:36:20
Carl Lubbe
want to be married to my best friend until we're both not alive. And was funny, I was teaching at the University of Georgia last week. And so I had a bunch of, you know, young 20 somethings in there. And was telling them, was like, listen, the piece of advice I'm about to give you will make you a ton of money in the marketplace.
00:36:37
Carl Lubbe
It will also make sure that you're married to your best friend 20 years from now, because I like my wife more today than I did the day we met.
00:36:37
Matt Chenard
Hmm.
00:36:45
Carl Lubbe
And I liked her a lot then. And this is not because I'm a guru. It's not because, like you said, I do everything right. It is singularly because have become a student of my wife.
00:36:56
Carl Lubbe
I am constantly being surprised by this woman. I've made the commitment... that I will give her my attention and that the problem is not her being the same person and that's a problem. The problem is that I don't view her as interesting and so I'm going to consistently remain curious because that's the problem we're solving. The muscle of my curiosity about this person fading would be the problem because even genetically and biologically, we're a different person every seven years at a molecular level. And so we change so much. in the course of you being married now for 14 years, you've been married to two different women. You're moved on to the third one. She's changed like at a genetic level twice already. And so this ability to maintain attention to the right problem and then intention to solutions that will
00:37:45
Carl Lubbe
move us towards that curiosity and then a commitment to say my preferred future is that I will die married to the most interesting version of this woman that ever existed. But not because she changed dramatically because she will, but because I maintained a level of attention that goes, man, you are funnier now, you're more intelligent now, all of which is true.
00:38:05
Carl Lubbe
But I could have missed it just because I wasn't giving it my attention. So I love the level of attention that you're giving in these five spaces in life, you know, professionally, physically, spiritually, in the relationships.
00:38:08
Matt Chenard
Amen.
00:38:18
Carl Lubbe
I mean, just incredible.
Purpose Realization and Core Values
00:38:20
Carl Lubbe
So with that, and this kind of gets us to what I think what might be our last question is, what was the question that sparked this journey?
00:38:30
Carl Lubbe
So typically what we're asking people is, hey, what's the last great question that changed your life? And maybe for some people, it's the first one that pops to mind is like, oh, like somebody asked me to get married or somebody asked me if I joined this company. would just be interested for you. Like, what's one great question that, you know, kind of changed everything for you and set you on this path?
00:38:50
Matt Chenard
That's a good question.
00:38:53
Carl Lubbe
which by the way, for people who are listening while Matt collects his thoughts on that, is always the marker, by the way, of a good question.
00:38:53
Matt Chenard
That's
00:38:59
Carl Lubbe
If you're wondering if you're good at being curious or asking a better question, you don't ever have to wonder. Two things will always happen with a great question.
00:39:05
Matt Chenard
a good question.
00:39:06
Carl Lubbe
One, yeah, one, people will self-qualify it and they will say loud all the time. That's a good question. The other one is people will hmm, If people can respond with one word or two syllables, it's probably not yet a great question.
00:39:21
Carl Lubbe
If people have to pause and actually consume it, you've moved from a Cheeto to a steak. And what we want is people to be able to chew on something and enjoy it. And so I appreciate Matt taking the time to think through what's a question that you think is a great question that was asked of you that may have changed everything for you.
00:39:40
Matt Chenard
I think it's three letters, one syllable, why? And it's a repeating question.
00:39:46
Carl Lubbe
Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:48
Matt Chenard
And the reason I say that, because you guys have listened to this whole podcast now, or maybe you skipped ahead, maybe not, but is,
00:39:57
Matt Chenard
Why was pursuing hockey as a career? Why I pursue being a gym owner? Why did my wife pursue fitness the way she did? Why was I being competitive in CrossFit?
00:40:09
Matt Chenard
Why am coaching men now? Why was I coaching business before? Why am I on this podcast right now? And this sounds very, what's the word?
00:40:25
Matt Chenard
very deep but I guess the question behind the question is understanding myself is needing to ask why do anything
00:40:36
Matt Chenard
And not to get in your head completely every single day. But here's an example. I invested in a retreat property. Actually, our common friend was there and was beautiful a couple of years ago. Amazing place. And long ago, I'd written a vivid vision for myself.
00:40:36
Carl Lubbe
Mm-hmm.
00:40:53
Matt Chenard
I said, I'm going to own a retreat property that can help people. And this opportunity came up. We partnered on the deal. And in the back of mind, I felt like maybe it wasn't a good time, but I forced it a little bit.
00:41:06
Matt Chenard
And now I look back and we basically sold for a wash because I can quickly make decisions now based on time, money, energy. It was taking a lot of my mental energy. It wasn't worth my time in terms of the mental energy was taking.
00:41:17
Carl Lubbe
Okay.
00:41:20
Matt Chenard
But I got into it out of pride, out of ego. I wanted to say I had a retreat property. I wasn't stewarding what I had. So if I had really stopped and asked myself or even had counsel, wise counsel around me and say, need you ask me why I'm doing this.
00:41:37
Matt Chenard
And if it doesn't pass this test, I'm not gonna do it. So everything we do, everything we pursue, and I'll go back to the beginning of this conversation where
00:41:48
Matt Chenard
I invested in things out of my own selfishness a lot of the time. I wanted to be quote unquote successful. I wanted to be competitive. I wanted to be approved of or was preventing me from posting.
00:42:03
Matt Chenard
So I need to ask myself, why am not or why am I wanting to do this? And if I can't answer it in a way that I know that whether it succeeds or fails, I'm still going to be me.
00:42:20
Matt Chenard
I'm still going to find joy. I'm still going to love my wife, my kids the same amount as I am today. And I don't mean in emotion, I mean in action. then it's probably not a good thing for me to do because it's taking me away from who I am.
00:42:34
Carl Lubbe
Thank you.
00:42:34
Matt Chenard
I think if you need to ask yourself, and that was the question was the why question is ask yourself why often, because even talking about this, I've had multiple different offerings. We talked about my offering. We connected many years ago and felt my offering I currently have was too deep and cerebral to create a product around and make money on.
00:43:00
Matt Chenard
So I went to different avenue. I said, going to coach people in just business, which I can do, but it didn't align with my brand. So then feel like God kept pulling me back and like, no, just push this off route there.
00:43:12
Matt Chenard
So I put the man on mission offer note there and I had the best month I've ever had in my business ever because it aligned with who I am. I enjoy philosophical ideas. I enjoy deep conversation. I enjoy talking about Jesus. I enjoy business. I enjoy holistic success, mental, physical, spiritual, relational, professional.
00:43:33
Matt Chenard
And I just leaned into it and I stopped putting my intent on say the why was I need to do something to make lot of money, to make up for everything we've lost.
00:43:45
Matt Chenard
Instead of saying, I'm gonna do this thing because I feel like it aligns with how God's designed me. And then I'm gonna do it for the rest of my life. That's something I also teach now is if you are good at something, Ikigai, you're good at it, the world needs it, you can paid for it, you love doing it, that center point is a sweet spot.
00:44:06
Matt Chenard
Imagine if we all did that. Imagine if we just forgot about the money for a second and we had the ability to just invest in that for a couple years. What does that look like in 10, 20, 30 years? The money will be exponential, but you are no longer trying to escape your vocation because you're wearing golden handcuffs by buying consumeristic things because you enjoy what you do. And it's just a byproduct of how you like to spend your time. Cause that's exactly almost where I am right now. I get to have conversations with driven business owners to help them align their personal and business life and talk about God and help them scale their business and drink coffee. So why?
00:44:48
Matt Chenard
That's the question.
00:44:49
Carl Lubbe
Pretty good gig, man. Yeah,
Building Discipline and Resilience
00:44:51
Carl Lubbe
love that. In that space, you know, somebody's wrestling with, you know, maybe many whys. One of things that might be helpful to kind of simplify that big, big question because it's what you did in your space as well. So just to give them handles is the follow-up thing is what problem do I want to be known for solving in this space?
00:45:14
Carl Lubbe
Because like you said, you been asked that around the retreat center, you're like, I really want to help people. And you're like, is that the real problem?
00:45:21
Matt Chenard
Yeah.
00:45:21
Carl Lubbe
Well, if I'm honest with my circle of friends, I really want to be known as the guy who owns the center, I really want to make money off the center. And like, well, that's fine. As long as you can, can you get excited about that every morning? Can you drive towards that? Can you make that successful with that? Why?
00:45:35
Carl Lubbe
And I think for all of us, it's asking the questions of in this moment, in this week, in this quarter, in this year, is there a problem worth solving that I can zone in and hone in on enough that it will give me energy for the thing. Because you and I both know people don't typically burn out because they're doing the wrong thing.
00:45:53
Matt Chenard
Yeah. Yep.
00:45:53
Carl Lubbe
Or they're sorry, people don't typically burn out because they're doing too much is that they're doing too much of the wrong thing.
00:45:59
Carl Lubbe
Because you and I could probably on calls, and in meetings and hanging out with people around this conversation for eight hours and not feel it because we're doing that eeky guy centered thing. I'm good at it, the world needs it.
00:46:09
Carl Lubbe
You know, I enjoy it. And it is a vocation. But if you switch that thing to something else, you're like, I don't know that I can stand eight minutes of this. And so is it that overlap of those things? What a great question.
00:46:22
Carl Lubbe
And we would talk about, see it modeled here by Matt, the most important question is the next one. So you asked one, and then another why, and then another why.
00:46:29
Matt Chenard
Yep.
00:46:30
Carl Lubbe
So it solves this problem. What's the deeper problem of that that you would love to be known for solving in this day or this week or this season? So Matt, if there are people listening or watching, and I'm sure that they are interested, what's the best way to kind of go, oh, I need some Matt in my life.
00:46:47
Carl Lubbe
What's the best way for them to kind of engage in the work that you're doing?
00:46:50
Matt Chenard
Social media and YouTube are my biggest platforms I post on right now. So Matt Chouinard on both of those. But if you're interested and you need help with anything I just shared, then there's a link to apply for my program.
00:47:05
Matt Chenard
I open the doors up periodically and you need to be on the list to know when that happens. And that's where it is. I'm currently creating a landing page right now, but it's not ready. So the application form is where to go to right now.
00:47:19
Carl Lubbe
Amazing. And if somebody goes and applies and they're kind of on the waiting list and they kind of get in, what's the thing you're kind of promising? What's the problem you're like, hey, this is the thing we kind of want to be known for helping fix in your world?
00:47:31
Matt Chenard
Yeah, I help Christian men build unbreakable discipline and steadfast emotional resilience using my Mission 5 framework in nine weeks so that they can become a hero at home, strengthen their marriage, get in great physical shape, deepen their relationship with the Lord, all while scaling their business and getting back time.
00:47:51
Carl Lubbe
Just those little things in nine weeks.
00:47:52
Matt Chenard
Just those little things.
00:47:53
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:47:53
Matt Chenard
Easy peasy.
00:47:53
Carl Lubbe
That's great.
00:47:54
Matt Chenard
Yeah, I should say that's why lead with this first part.
00:47:54
Carl Lubbe
Easy. Yeah.
00:47:58
Matt Chenard
You build the unbreakable discipline so you could take consistent action so that eventually these things happen.
00:47:58
Carl Lubbe
Yeah.
00:48:02
Matt Chenard
I'm not promising the big shifts right now.
00:48:06
Carl Lubbe
And I know you're not. So that's why I wanted to, you know, make sure that we're illuminating that. But I mean, what terrific work, Matt, think the world of you and the work that you're doing out in the world.
00:48:12
Matt Chenard
Yep.
00:48:16
Carl Lubbe
And so thanks so much for being on the podcast. appreciate you asking and answering some big questions.
00:48:21
Matt Chenard
Thanks, Carl. Appreciate you.
00:48:23
Carl Lubbe
All right. Cheers, everybody.