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Lich Please! Episode 24: Tanner (Foes and Fabels)
49 Plays1 year ago
This Week the boys are joined by the amazing Tanner from Foes and Fables
🎲 Welcome to Lich Please! the ultimate destination for Dungeon Masters and adventurers alike!
🐉 Join Iwan and Alex as they delve into the art of DMing, explore the intricacies of homebrewing content, and embark on a journey through the realms of world-building. With regular special guests, we bring you insightful discussions, tips, and inspiration for your Dungeons & Dragons campaigns.
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Transcript
Introduction of Tanner, the DM of Foes and Fables
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Lich Please podcast. As always, I'm here with Alex and we are joined by the fantastic DM of Foes and Fables. Tanner is joining us today. Hello. Hello. Hi, thank you so much for having me. No worries at all.
00:00:18
Speaker
Um, how's it going? Good. I, I'm glad that we got to work out this, uh, very long distance call. We've said it before and we said it again, time differences is a pain to work out sometimes. Yep. I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me. It's going to be a great. Yeah. So, um, the first question is always, uh, how'd you answer the ND?
Tanner's Journey into D&D During the Pandemic
00:00:47
Speaker
I'm one of the people born of it from the pandemic for sure. It was 2020. I was actually in the middle of, I used to do music and because of the pandemic, literally that summer I was going to tour. And then that obviously, you know, kind of have to get put on the back burner.
00:01:06
Speaker
And so just for fun, because I was also super into like the true crime genre podcast stuff, I started a very casual true crime show with my friends.
00:01:19
Speaker
who I was kind of quarantined with. And then in the midst of that, my friend and one of my co-hosts, Zach, he'd always kind of been into D&D and he had started getting a lot of our mutual friends and stuff into it and had me do basically like a guest appearance character in one of his home games. And then being sort of the storyteller focused
00:01:47
Speaker
artist type person, I then realized that D&D was kind of exactly the thing that I wanted to do and partake in my whole life. So then I kind of ran headfirst into it and started a home game that we're still playing.
00:02:03
Speaker
which is super cool. We've been playing that since June of 2020. We're actually playing it again this weekend, which is super exciting.
Pandemic's Impact on D&D Popularity
00:02:11
Speaker
Started that home game and then about a year after I started playing D&D is when I started getting the crew together for Foes and Fables and started to approach the actual play genre and take that head on.
00:02:27
Speaker
nice yeah um basically like 85 of our guests straight from pandemic yeah it really is insane yeah um wow i feel like the pandemic was a was a big like push yeah for for the genres absolutely and not even just the genre in terms of actual play and everything but you know the hobby as a whole for sure
00:02:51
Speaker
Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I got into it after the pandemic as well. So yeah. Cool. So already onto the first segment because I like doing it quick. OK, go straight ahead. Yeah. I don't need to get warmed up. I'm ready. Let's go. So just a reminder for everyone. This is still not figured out a name for it. We'll get there.
00:03:18
Speaker
Guess the monster, basically. You won versus Tanner today. Score is for free to guests. I will read out the stats. That episode's not out. We have lost that episode.
00:03:33
Speaker
halfway through audio cut out. But I'll give the guests. We had Sunfire on last week and they got to be a lot of pressure. I got to keep up this insane ball to get past in the middle of the middle of the fucking play.
Monster Guessing Game
00:03:50
Speaker
So I also I never use monsters I've used before. So to help you out, it won't be a lich beholder to ask mimic adult red dragon.
00:04:03
Speaker
cobalt pseudo dragon pseudo dragon is on this cube Yeah, yeah sure yeah, I think that's all yeah, yeah cool so I Will start with armor class hit points and speed so 12 AC lever armor its hit points is 11 2d8 plus 2 and its speed is 30 feet and
00:04:36
Speaker
Oh, so do we do we get like one guess or is it basically first to get it? Yeah, basically first to get. Yeah, obviously, like, you know,
00:04:49
Speaker
kind of officiate how many guesses you can get, because you can just guess every single monster. Right, yeah. Yeah. Is this just a... I'm trying to think of the very specific term, but I'm pretty sure it's like bandit slash cultist slash, like, acolyte. Yeah, it's just a bandit. Yeah. It's just a bandit. Yeah, it's secured. Cool. So, yeah. It was going to be a humanoid when you said leather armour.
00:05:17
Speaker
Yeah, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. Honestly, what tipped it off to me was the 11 hit points because I remember speaking of my home game was that was, I'm pretty sure, the first enemy that I was like.
Homebrew vs Modules: Tanner's Perspective
00:05:29
Speaker
I'll throw this at them and it'll be great. And I'm pretty sure I didn't understand CR because CR doesn't make any sense anyway. And I'm pretty sure I threw like two cultists or bandits or whatever at a four person party. And I was like, I'm bad at this. I'm not good at this at all. That's why I remember them having 11.
00:05:55
Speaker
Just to show how much of a different people we are. I think we record, I run, so I run sessions on a Monday. We recorded the next day. Alex put Cobalt as the creature.
00:06:06
Speaker
didn't get it, was like, I don't know what this is, completely out of my head, no idea. Well, here's the thing, if you had said something, I was way more likely to get that one than one that I made myself yesterday. There's no way, now, with how inundated I am with it and how often I'm overing stuff in the show and making stuff, there's no way, yeah, the older the better. So that's the only thing that was helpful.
00:06:36
Speaker
Yeah. Nice. So five free to guests. Yeah. I hope you won, loses next week as well.
00:06:47
Speaker
Since you're DMing, I think we should switch it now. I think we should. I should be quizzing you. You guys may have to pass the ball back and forth between each other. Yeah. Yeah. What determines the winner? And is there a prize? Are you guys going to owe every single guest just a sack full of money like Scrooge McDuck? The prize is, oh, that's a great question. Never even thought of a prize or when you win.
00:07:16
Speaker
The prize is a lack of Yuan's pride. That's what I found.
Balancing Homebrew Elements in Campaigns
00:07:21
Speaker
It's a prize for me. Wow. So you get to dunk on your friend. Yeah. As a host of a show myself, I like getting dunked on on the internet in front of everybody. I get it.
00:07:43
Speaker
Cool. So actually we were just talking about Homebrew. This should last 20 seconds ago. So go more into depth with that. Have you ever done modules? And would you do modules again?
00:07:55
Speaker
I think I would give it a shot but it would be a thing where I would need to just which I'm pretty sure is what most people do anyway but I'm not sure because most people I talk to are also you know creators and people who do like fully homebrew stuff and everything so if I were to do one
00:08:17
Speaker
It'd be real, a real wackadoodle version of whatever the initial. I will pray far from the subject material and all that for sure. But I feel like most people when they get into modules usually gotta like adjust stuff every now and then. Like isn't Strahd like famously like, maybe not Strahd, maybe I'm thinking of something else, but there's some module or modules that are famously like
00:08:47
Speaker
Yeah, you you just kind of look at the book for the setting and everything and then kind of do whatever you want. I think it might be Strad. I know Strad gets changed a lot because we have talks about the changing of Strad. Yeah. Like you changed Strad, you ran when you ran Strad. Yes. Yeah, I changed Strad and in quite a.
00:09:10
Speaker
an evil way some people have said. Every person says. Every person. Death House, the intro to Shred. I have not, no. It's pretty well renowned for being a very brutal encounter. There's a sentient broom for level one characters. It's quite deadly. And then in the basement, they've either got to sacrifice one of the players to get out alive or fight a shambling mound
Upcoming Pirate-Themed Campaign
00:09:38
Speaker
at level two.
00:09:39
Speaker
And it's quite, that's quite a task. Yeah. Um, Jesus. But I decided to change it. I'm as a biologist or my friend at the time was a biologist. I was like, I'll give him a puppy and had them carry this little dog all the way through the dais until they got to the bottom. And it caused friction between the group as they decided, do we kill a player or the dog? And it was a real point of contention in the house. We all lived together all seven of us at that point. So.
00:10:08
Speaker
I was in the dog eyes for quite a bit. Describing it as causing friction between the group in your accent makes it so posh. It's an absolutely psychopath move of you to do. And I respect it, because I'm a fellow psychopath. I will put that dog down in front of the party if I need to make a fucking point. Oh my god. Unapologetically. I've stated many times I would have just sacrificed myself.
00:10:37
Speaker
Yeah, I would have just sat on that table, stabbed myself in the chest. I would have just called it. Yeah. I'm not getting the talk. I'd rather. Yeah. Absolutely. In one of our, in one of our campaigns, Spiros that I don't DM, that Nathan Dians and I, and I get to play in. I won't spoil anything, but there's part of it where there is a dog with us, our little dog Maha.
00:11:00
Speaker
And I 100% would die for that dog. Yes. But I also respect Nathan's willingness to threaten that dog's life. I get it. Sometimes you got it.
00:11:12
Speaker
As a DM, I have a rule. If it's got a hit point, it's fair game. If you put it in battle, it's, I'm coming for it. Those points are literally by definition there to be hit. So it's, you gotta do something with it. What else are they going to do? Sit there at 10 out of 10 hit
Star Wars 5E System in D&D Campaigns
00:11:28
Speaker
points? No. My thing with modules now is I think I've home brewed for so long. I would open a book. I don't like that. I don't like that. I'm going to change that. And at that point, am I really running a module or am I just,
00:11:43
Speaker
getting an inspiration from a book that I've read. Right. Right. And that's why I think I vibe a lot more with like source books and everything. I agree. Because because I feel like that's.
00:11:56
Speaker
Most of what people do and want to run and everything, except for, you know, I don't know. I just, I don't live in the module world or, or talk to enough people who run out of modules and everything. Enough to know like where the line is or where that conversation is around like playing it by the book or straying from things and, and, and stuff like that.
00:12:20
Speaker
and you know then it gets into those parts of the internet that are kind of dnd purists who are like if you change anything then you know you're not playing the game it's like shut up yeah i i i definitely vibe a lot more source books i've definitely we've talked about having um in the future like how cool it would be to make a source book for one of our campaigns or multiple of our campaigns and things of that nature um
00:12:46
Speaker
which would be super rad, but I don't know if I could ever design like a module. I have wanted to design, we have a Patreon tier where people will receive like game mechanics that are themed after our series that we do and everything. And I have wanted to do like basically missions or like story arcs, but that's probably the most module like thing that I've ever had any interest in designing, at least at this point.
00:13:16
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, both me and Alex, a huge homebrew is in a built like built both below our own worlds and stuff. I couldn't even imagine the intaking of building like a module like it just seems so intimidating to. Yeah, I don't want to imagine it. Absolutely. Because also like this is the toughest thing about making the homebrew and making it for our patrons here and everything. The most intimidating part of it, at least at first, was balancing it. And especially when you're making a module like
00:13:46
Speaker
The rules of D&D and the balancing of 5E and everything is already so wishy-washy, it's hard to zone in on what those numbers are actually supposed to mean across the board for all players and people walking in from whatever corner or whatever game or something. So it's so hard to balance things and be like, this custom creature I made is perfectly CR2 when CR2 already doesn't make any sense. So it seems...
00:14:15
Speaker
Not impossible and that's the thing with that I kind of gave up on honestly with our homebrew stuff pretty early on was balancing it I have a decent I played enough that I have a decent idea of like if a character is using this rarity of a thing it should do Etc amount of damage or whatever So I you know, I kind of feel it out, but it's definitely I don't know the science of it at all. That's for sure. I
00:14:41
Speaker
Yeah, I agree Yeah, it's it's hard to balance things my logic is if it's unbalanced I know it's unbalanced. I'll just balance it when I'm doing it I'll just lower a few things whatever because for the campaign so Monday we start my campaign. We've taken a break off the arc one from your wins for him DMing and
00:15:04
Speaker
and I start Monday and I basically requested people to make our own blue glass because it's a pirate campaign.
00:15:13
Speaker
There's one pirate subclass that exists. So I was like, yeah, make a Homebrew one. Obviously, you can just use normal and whatever. I don't care. But it'd be cool if you guys Homebrew one. And most of them did, which is cool. But I'm not sure if they're balanced yet. I will find out. I felt them right. I still don't know. Have you seen, it came out a little while ago, because I backed it on,
00:15:41
Speaker
on, I'm trying to think of the place where you fund campaigns and everything. Of course now I'm trying to think of it, I can't. But anyways, I'm back to the wild world. Kickstarter, right? Kickstarter? Yes, Kickstarter. The ADHD part of my brain that's like, oh, this information, as soon as you need it. Kickstarter, I backed down on Kickstarter a while ago. What you might have a little interest looking in, if you don't already know about it, is this cool source book called Tempest.
00:16:11
Speaker
It's pretty great. It has some kind of quirky, like, it's maybe not the best packaged source book that I've ever seen, but the content within it is pretty solid and it's literally just like a seafaring pirate setting. They have a bunch of new,
00:16:36
Speaker
races I'm pretty sure they have one almost one news pirate themed subclass for almost every class not all of them and they have like ship mechanics like ship battle and encounter mechanics for that we haven't got to dive much into it on our end just because it hasn't fit any campaign that we've played before but I remember being very excited because I love the pirate
00:17:05
Speaker
world of things and creating worlds within
Adapting Video Games into D&D Campaigns
00:17:09
Speaker
that. So if you haven't heard of that, I would look into that because it's kind of exactly filling that void that I also remember not not having an easy time planning. I think I think actually rings about because I spent a long time figuring out ship mechanics and ship combat for this. And I'm likely to have come across it because I found quite a few things.
00:17:33
Speaker
Yeah, so I think I have seen or at least heard of it before. Yeah, definitely. Might have to revisit it. Check out again.
00:17:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's great. There's another one. There's another pirate setting that I have. I can't remember what it's called, though. I'm I can send it your way afterwards. But the the ship mechanic thing is definitely rough, especially because I'm pretty sure Fivi has ship combat mechanics in it, but they're terrible. I had I didn't know this is a ship mechanics. Yeah. The what's the book, the one in space?
00:18:10
Speaker
No, it's a spell jammer. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. Well, jammer is a totally separate rule set for, you know, the space vehicles and everything that, in my opinion, also isn't that great. Yeah, it's not great at all. The what we did because we are current campaign is our current campaign shimmer is using the Star Wars 5E system to kind of get that sci fi vibe across. Yeah. And all that.
00:18:41
Speaker
Their Starship-like system is fantastic. I don't think it would translate super well to a ship on the water or anything like that.
Combat Mechanics and Player Engagement
00:18:52
Speaker
But the concept, basically if you took the skeleton of it and applied it to a ship in the ocean and that sort of thing, it's a great concept. It's literally just a character sheet just for the Starship instead.
00:19:06
Speaker
And these, you know, it's it's more based on what equipment you have attached to this starship and everything for the kids. Yeah, it's a fantastic system. It's very, very fun and makes for a really fun time with the party getting to kind of the all take initiative.
00:19:24
Speaker
together. So everybody rolls initiative. Whoever rolled the lowest initiative is what your ship's initiative has. And then they all take their turn together. So they each can hop in and dog pile on top of the action economy and everything all at once. And then there turns over and then you go through the rest of initiative. It's great. I love the Star Wars 5e ship system. It's fantastic. Yeah, that's actually exactly. Yeah, that's basically what I'm doing. Just makes it easier and more fun.
00:19:53
Speaker
Yeah, I did so much reading on everything. It was like, yeah, just the ships do all their times at once. And I'm going to have different equipment that I've built for it. I'll just time ruined. Whatever. So, yeah, it's basically what I'm doing. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. Yeah. They used that in Starstruck, right? Dimension 20 Starstruck. Yeah, I love that season. Yeah. It's I think it's my favorite Dimension 20 season. It was incredible. And the ship mechanics were crazy and they were just so much fun.
00:20:21
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, because they also run Star Wars 5E for that one as well. And that was also, that was part of why we decided to go with it for Shimmer, just because that was our first time kind of, and people on the internet, the purists would say like, no, you're just playing 5E still. And it's like, yes, but not really. It is very different. Yeah. But we didn't want to stray too far from
00:20:48
Speaker
5e um honestly mostly just for the show's sake just because of how much work it already was going to be to um to learn the star wars 5e system how much more work it would be to try and learn like something completely new or like a different ipy thing or like starfinder or something so i was like let's do something that is
00:21:13
Speaker
comparable to what we do now so that the learning curve isn't as bad and getting to see the kind of, you know, examples through Starstruck and also listening to a lot of Dungeon Jedi Masters.
Editing Combat for Podcast Audiences
00:21:27
Speaker
That's a great little show.
00:21:29
Speaker
Was super helpful, but it was a we do the we joke in our first episode of shimmer one of my players David jokes that he's like currently sitting on like page 30 of the info document that I sent them because I sent them pages and pages and Taking what's on the Star Wars 5e website and simplifying it or because it's kind of messy and you kind of have to like
00:21:56
Speaker
go through not just the website but also the Star Wars 5e discord as well where the creators of it are like actively talking with people and hammering things out oh that's great yeah it's kind of being created very loosey goosey in the moment there and you can ask questions so i literally am bouncing back and forth between like
00:22:16
Speaker
third party sources about Star Wars 5e the website that's a little clunky and disorganized the discord that kind of answers any question that you have and taking all that and putting it into a separate document just for our needs and everything and by the end of it it was like it was too much it was too many pages of information yeah but it was fun and worth it
00:22:39
Speaker
Something I just wanted to quickly bounce back to and I think we've done this question before but I'd be curious to get your opinion on it, Tanner. We have... So you spoke before about the ship initiative and it being your ship versus their ship. I've seen people suggest to run that in regular combat as well and having it be players turn versus enemies turn so you can have more sort of cohesive attacks by the players. I'm just curious to see what your opinion on that was.
00:23:06
Speaker
I now having run Star Wars 5e in the ship combat and everything I'd love to try it. I think it possibly could be a little clunkier than ship combat because the great thing about the Star Wars 5e ship combat is it's designed to be.
00:23:24
Speaker
Collaborative and a lot of the action economy for the deployments are designed to be like this is a small part of a greater engine that people are kind of working together to do and I don't think that.
00:23:39
Speaker
a lot of the base 5E actions are necessarily built that way. However, I do think one of the biggest hiccups in 5E is the kind of lack of collaboration and the lack of alley oops and the lack of wombo combos that can be achieved through the very rigid initiative order.
Enhancing Gameplay with Collaboration
00:24:00
Speaker
So I'd be super interested in trying it. I'm pretty sure that's actually I can't remember what the term for it is, but I'm pretty sure
00:24:07
Speaker
That's in the D, the dungeon master's guide as like an alternative rule set to kind of run it in like really grouped initiative like that. I just can't remember what it's called. So they do. They do run it like that. I'd be super interested in trying it. Also, the other thing that, you know, has to go on top of that. I can't remember if the DMG addresses
00:24:29
Speaker
how dungeon masters go about rolling initiative against the party. I guess if it's just a group of enemies you would just have them kind of roll separately too. There definitely would have to be some adjustments made on the DM's part to kind of balance it out. For Star Wars 5e, for ship combat, the enemy ships have negative modifiers based on their size. So that's kind of how it balances out against the party rolling essentially like
00:24:57
Speaker
quadruple pentuple disadvantage and that sort of thing. So that's sort of one of the hurdles that probably would have to get climbed over is just kind of getting used to it. But I think other than the action economy available on the ground game being less cohesive and collaborative, I think it'd be something super interesting.
00:25:21
Speaker
to try in the future if it feels like the setting is correct. For our, you know where I think it would fit well is a game where we did, we went on as a podcast group, we went on like a vacation last year and we were like, we're not gonna record anything, we're all just gonna run a one shot that we're gonna do. And Zach, my co-host Zach did a,
00:25:49
Speaker
Horizon Zero Dawn setting, which was so fun. He made a bunch of mechanics for it that, at the end of it all, I think he regretted because it was basically like a new game, kind of, like a new game on top of 5E. He did so much work for a one-shot. I truly don't know how he had the time or why he did that to him.
00:26:12
Speaker
But it was awesome, and I got to make a super stupid broken character with it, which is one of my favorite things to do is exploit mechanics and that sort of thing. So I made a barbarian that could attack with his rules, I think he could attack like six times, and I kind of averaged like 100 damage per turn. Damn. Nice. Damn.
00:26:37
Speaker
But I think something like that, like that setting where Horizon Zero Dawn, it's about a group of people taking down this big monster or like a monster hunter setting like that, where there are mechanics based around like
00:26:51
Speaker
You got to weaken XYZ health pools of this creature to take down the whole thing. I think something like that could really benefit from a shared initiative count like that. Yes, I think I agree with you on that. That horizon inclined to run it on a sort of a a one enemy like an ancient dragon kind of basis. Yeah. As opposed to just regular combat.
00:27:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think that'd be uh quite cool. So I actually just thought of something um You you've played quite a few but it sounds a bit like I guess how would I word like? um video game into dnd Campaigns and like movies into d is there any you'd like to just try in the future ones that you thought about like a specific ip
00:27:43
Speaker
Well, we don't. So for the show, obviously we can't just because. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So for Star Wars 5e, obviously I had to reskin a bunch of stuff. But even then, like with Star Wars 5e, I kind of like I didn't want people to feel like they couldn't play a force caster. So when I was writing Shimmer, I kind of wrote it into the mechanics of Star Wars 5e. So there were things like the Creed and then the crew and in our world, which were the
00:28:12
Speaker
Jedi and Sith equivalent, sort of. But as for like. As for fully a world that I would want to kind of jump into. Oh, I'm OK. I don't know if this is the exact right answer. OK, no, I have an exact right answer. And I have a point answer. I'm excited for this now. Second runner up. The second runner up, funny answer.
00:28:39
Speaker
If Nathan or Zach are listening to this, this is just for you guys. Fuck you. I want to run a Kingdom Hearts game so fucking bad. I love Kingdom Hearts. It's really cringy and it's terrible and it's. And I love every second.
00:28:56
Speaker
I love every second of my friends or my power and this stupid kid with a key just comes in and starts beating the shit out of shadows.
Character Evolution and Story Development
00:29:03
Speaker
It's awesome. I think that would be fun. Just like, essentially, I guess, what am I trying to think of? Like a space jam of author IP jam into this funny little story. I feel like Kingdom Hearts would be very funny.
00:29:23
Speaker
to kind of jump between different Disney worlds and that sort of thing. That would be fun. And then I think my real answer just because it's what me and my roommates have been obsessed with for the past two years now is Elden Ring. Yes.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I'm currently I paused. I just beat finished my fourth play through to to pause and start over with a new character because I had a miss being bad at the game again. I started over again.
00:29:58
Speaker
But even with Elden Ring too, because nothing is new anymore, no idea comes without its influences and everything, even Elden Ring has been kind of a big influence on
00:30:12
Speaker
specifically two different campaigns that we did. So we did our Halloween campaign, which was a war of tricks and treats, which was kind of this like Game of Thrones meets Elden Ring. Oh, Halloween. Halloween, a five like middle ages war mini campaign that we did.
00:30:32
Speaker
And that one was super... Elden Ring was a big influence on that one and kind of the tone of that world and everything. And then for our Patreon, we do a Patreon exclusive campaign that's just a solo player campaign called the Playtest. And it's...
00:30:48
Speaker
Literally the premise of it is that it's one player at a time and the players get like three basically life tokens as if they're playing in an arcade. So they get to die for you know each time that they have a token they can keep playing or retire the character or whatever.
00:31:06
Speaker
And then when they're done, another player steps in to that same world that the first play tester was already influencing and everything. And they can then journey through, but have to deal with the consequences as a new character, but deal with the consequences of what took place from the last play tester.
00:31:24
Speaker
And because that one is a solo player campaign that's set in 5E and everything still, 5E's built, you know, as much as we were talking earlier, how it's kind of hard with your action economy to supplement and help out your fellow party members a lot of times, 5E is still built for a party against a group of enemies type thing.
Creativity in Homebrew Storytelling
00:31:45
Speaker
So one of the biggest things that I took from Elden Ring was
00:31:49
Speaker
The endurance thing. And so we have the stamina mechanic, which off the top of my head, if I'm remembering correctly, I did. You have a number of stamina points equal to your decks modifier plus your proficiency bonus. And basically you can spend those.
00:32:06
Speaker
in various different ways. The main ways is to fully evade an attack and essentially dodge roll out of the way. You can expend certain points to do that. You can expend certain points for special abilities. If you have an attack that you can bolster and make more powerful, then you spend two stamina points on top of that to add two extra die to the damage roll or something like that.
00:32:29
Speaker
or you can expend all of your stamina points at once and crit an auto crit on an enemy. The drawback to that is that there are enemies who if you have below a certain threshold of stamina points can punish you and mess you up just like an elven ring you gotta watch your endurance levels and everything like that.
00:32:47
Speaker
So Elden Ring is for sure a poison within my mind that will probably afflict other ideas that I have as I continue writing for our show and our home game and everything. Yeah. No, 100% soul games, just souls games like Bloodborne. I have a dire need to be in a Bloodborne indie world.
00:33:09
Speaker
I planted him that game. I put hours into Bloodborne. I want to play it in D&D. It's so bad. Elden Ring was the first Souls game that I ever played because I was not really a video game player my whole life. Really, it was just Kingdom Hearts that I played. I really didn't play video games outside of it much. So Elden Ring, I was the first Souls game I played and I didn't know that I was a Souls game player until then.
00:33:38
Speaker
So I've never played Bloodborne, but I watched somebody like stream the game or an actual play of the game or something. It is cool. It is a cool setting. Very cool. Yeah. Bloodborne setting. And my and my co-host just played through Lies of P, which was also a super cool souls. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool setting and everything.
00:34:00
Speaker
I am personally excited for the upcoming I'm pretty sure it's called Another Crabs Treasure. It looks awesome. It's this very colorful cartoony souls like crab and you switch your load out of whatever you're using for your shell for your shell with basically like trash that you find in the ocean or whatever. It looks awesome. I can't wait. Yeah, I love games. Oh, yeah. I understand.
00:34:28
Speaker
I was going to play Elden Ring, and then I saw someone play it, and there's a... There's a wolf guy, right, isn't there? He's called... Yeah. Well, that's a Welsh word, and they say it wrong. Everyone does it wrong unless I can't play it. No, it will just annoy me too much. It's pronounced horribly, and I was like, no, I'm not doing it. Wait, what's the proper pronunciation? Blythe. Double D is a zz sound in Welsh.
00:34:52
Speaker
Oh, oh, interesting. Yeah, that is interesting. We love our double letters. Well, now I know. Well, now I know. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I said the curse word blind. Fine. We can move past
Crafting Narrative-Driven Campaigns
00:35:07
Speaker
this. But the game creators, you know, they chose they made him a wolf as well. Like they knew what it was. Just just play on you.
00:35:20
Speaker
Um Of all the things that I thought may happen in the future to maybe get me cancelled at some point I didn't realize So early So I think we'll go into our
00:35:39
Speaker
second time, which is a question I see quite often. And we've spoken about doing this as like a full episode and dedicating a full episode talking about this. But as you're in a you're an actual play the end, something I think you'd be quite, you will know a lot about like, how do you make combat engaging? That's a question you see constantly and everywhere. Yeah, because you use you promote this, you put it out there for people to watch. How do you keep combat engaging for both your players and people to watch?
00:36:05
Speaker
Honestly, I think a part of it that is probably more important than approaching it from the DM side or from a host angle is on the back end through editing.
00:36:25
Speaker
I edit the fuck out of our combat episodes. I will spend I honestly like I got behind recently on my editing and I just got caught back up. But I would dread editing combat episodes when I have like a backlog of episodes. I love editing it and I love bringing the show together because it really feels like I get to finally put the final product out and everything.
00:36:51
Speaker
But combat episodes can be a slog for us because I'm editing basically every single like moment of audio. I'm editing out all the time between rolling and saying the final number. I'm editing out like
00:37:09
Speaker
How does this work? Things that I feel don't benefit the audience and that sort of thing. So a lot of it is on the back end. If we're talking specifically an actual play series type thing, of keeping it engaging for the audience and everything, I think a lot of it is on the back end.
00:37:28
Speaker
Because there are times too where we'll all edit episodes and we kind of get in the zone and we kind of stop role playing and it gets very crunchy and it gets very like we're invested in the roles and everything and we're not just stopping to describe how we swing this sword or what happens.
00:37:47
Speaker
There's been times on our show where that happens and I'll notice it in our episodes. But I never really feel like the pace drops so long as I'm keeping that editing fast-paced and I'm not making people wait for the human element of trying to figure out math and figure out exactly what we want to do in an episode and everything.
00:38:08
Speaker
However, I do think that alone doesn't solve every issue. Obviously, the easy answer is, you know, create combats that are
00:38:23
Speaker
that have basically an alternative element to it besides just sap and hit points from people.
Balancing Homebrew Mechanics
00:38:30
Speaker
Which I agree with and I do think that helps but I think a lot of times also I think just a cool setting alone can kind of do that. We recently had an episode in the Shimmer
00:38:45
Speaker
campaign where they got to this ocean planet and they basically they took the starship underneath the water and as they were kind of traveling through this forest and everything they started seeing these like vines hanging down and suddenly electricity starts like
00:39:01
Speaker
Shooting back and forth between the vines and suddenly there's thousands of them all around their ship and their ship like over circuits basically and powers down and they realize that they're underneath this mile wide jellyfish that is this huge enormous jellyfish that has like these smaller jellyfish living essentially within it like an ecosystem and everything.
00:39:21
Speaker
And so that encounter became like survive these very powerful creatures that were really overpowered and were not balanced well for the party at all, survive them in enough time to get your shit back on, you know, into working order and everything to basically get out of there. And also in part of it too was removing certain tentacles that were like latched onto the ship from the ship so that they can zoom forward and all that.
00:39:48
Speaker
And that does have that third element of, you know, accomplish this goal amidst sapping hit points and everything. But even so, it kind of was more about accomplishing the goal than it was about hit points. And as simple of an episode as that was, and as much as it was like, it was kind of a stop along the way to their destination. It didn't really have much to do with the main story and things like that. It was just...
00:40:10
Speaker
kind of flavor for the world and all that. People liked that episode and people enjoyed it and it kind of boiled down to just the setting was cool and people liked it. So if we're talking about keeping combat interesting from the actual play perspective, I think it is
00:40:28
Speaker
The typical stuff plus editing. The combat's engaging in what way feels suits your party best. And also to a lot of things that I've learned doing actual play is that I can lean on my players and my cast members a lot more.
00:40:48
Speaker
then I think I knew that I could when we first started the show. And honestly, like with any DM, I think there's sometimes where I'll come into an episode and I'll be like,
00:41:01
Speaker
I really got anything for you guys. So I hope you guys are entertaining. Yeah. And, you know, some there, there's some back and forth performance wise there where I don't have as much to, you know, basically give to them and they got to kind of meet me.
00:41:22
Speaker
75% of the way, whether it's through roleplay or their character decisions or what have you. But part of it is I love my friends and I am very thankful to have them as members of the show and cast members and they're also incredibly talented performers and everything.
00:41:40
Speaker
That alone does a lot of the work.
Unique Character Roles in Campaigns
00:41:43
Speaker
So I just really have to focus on like, what's this? What's an encounter that's going to make their eyes widen when I start describing it to them? And then how well can I cut down the time between the start and end of that encounter in post is really kind of the ways that I look at that.
00:42:01
Speaker
I feel like combat is a weaker point of mind. I think it really picked up when we moved to Talespire. Having that 3D element really, I think, because you go for like, oh, can I climb up this roof? Can I climb up this pillar? And really having that three dimensional thing, at least for us, was like a game changer, I think.
00:42:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That was the thing that I used to because for our home game, we were theater of the mind for a really long time. We only recently because I'm the perfectionist type person. So we only recently started doing battle maps in our home game because I was like.
00:42:40
Speaker
Oh, I can kind of start to afford investing into more like the nice like battle maps and stuff. And I got all our players custom minis and everything. So now I go way too hard with home games.
00:42:55
Speaker
If one of my players wasn't in the room, a couple rooms down for me right now, I would tell you what is currently sitting in my room. It's the same project that I've been putting together for one encounter for our home game. That's not for the cameras or anything. It's just a mess in my room for it.
00:43:18
Speaker
And yeah, I think for sure the visualization part takes a lot when you're just doing theater in the mind. And sometimes too, it helps for stuff like that to kind of, if you're doing theater in the mind, one thing that was super accessible to us, also for anybody who doesn't have access to Tailspire, doesn't have the time to invest in Tailspire, because that also can be a whole monster and a whole podcast and everything.
00:43:44
Speaker
is Alabair Rodeo is great, super accessible, free, fantastic little online map that we would sometimes utilize whenever I felt like Theater of the Mind didn't do justice to the mechanics that were at play in a fight for our home games. And even sometimes for the podcast, we would use it just to keep things orderly between us at the table.
00:44:10
Speaker
But yeah, sometimes even just like if you're gonna do theater of the mind to just like I don't know look at pictures of a space that you feel resembles what you're talking about and everything if it's tough for people like it was for me to kind of visualize spaces and all that and kind of describe
00:44:27
Speaker
distances and that sort of thing. It gets better with time for sure for looking at it and all that, but it definitely moving from theater of the mind to doing more actual battle map stuff, it definitely makes me lean a bit more into like, okay, the battle map thing really like makes this game, it adds that third degree of
00:44:52
Speaker
combat encounters and designing them that really makes combats feel alive a lot more.
00:44:58
Speaker
Yeah, I actually, um, my first campaign still in it is theater of mind. Um, I've done like every, I've done fear of mine, taste spot, uh, tailspire Albert rodeo roll 20 above VTT. I've done so many. Um, but yeah, uh, fear of mine as well as literally the first campaign I did, I find that I always, I don't, I'd obviously don't do it with the maps, but I'm always asking more intricate questions as a player about.
Player and DM Collaboration
00:45:26
Speaker
character positioning and, uh, like where people are in combat and stuff and how much I could get, uh, with like a, uh, dragon's breath or something off of it, like how many people I could hit. It's, it's different. It's a lot, it's a lot, a lot different than having, well, a 3d map. So yeah. Um, it is interesting. I do quite enjoy a fear of mind. Yeah. So.
00:45:49
Speaker
um we ask everyone this question sometimes we get into prayer sometimes we don't um so what would be like a moment you can think of as a dm or a player that you like is one of your favorites or your favorite moment that you really enjoyed since you started playing dnd um god i do feel i'm i i'm lucky enough to know that there's a couple um
00:46:18
Speaker
I think that, well for one, I'll talk about one that's more something that I've gotten to do a couple times now that I always want to remain like thankful for, which is closing out a campaign. For the show, we do shorter seasons and everything.
00:46:35
Speaker
So I've now gotten to complete a multitude of campaigns and getting to kind of close out a story is something that a lot of people don't often get to do in this hobby and everything. So I think a special one for sure was the completing our first series evergreen just because it was the first time I had closed out a campaign before.
00:47:06
Speaker
And Evergreen was a very personal story for me that we got to tell on Phones and Fables. So it felt very satisfying to put a close on that one. And then kind of echoing that chapter of Iris was a sequel to Evergreen and putting a close on that entire story arc was a very special moment to me.
00:47:30
Speaker
I think some of, you know, this one I think will always stick out to me is in our home game. We've kind of talked about this before, tangentially on the podcast maybe, but in our home game I brought out the Deck of Many Things.
00:47:50
Speaker
And I love The Deck of Many Things. I did it on a season in our main show, and on Foes and Fables as well. But we did it in our home game.
00:48:02
Speaker
At first it started out where everybody, because everybody kind of knew what it was. And so everybody was really hesitant to start drawing cards. And by the end of it, it was like a five hour session where basically the party pulled every card and kind of finagled their way through surviving every single card. Or if they pulled one of the bad ones, they were like,
00:48:30
Speaker
Well, fuck, if we get this one, we can get out of here. Yeah, so the stakes kept raising and raising until every single card was pulled. And then the entire campaign was like very, you know, quite different from that effect of the campaign in a big way.
00:48:48
Speaker
um that i think is always going to be a very special session for me it's part of why i love the deck of many things and i'm excited because i know that they basically doubled the deck of many things recently yes yeah yeah yeah yeah and i i haven't gotten my hands on that yet but i'm gonna i have i have plans for that yeah yep that's exciting yeah i love that one that one's probably the most like
Impact of Player Decisions on Campaigns
00:49:14
Speaker
ingrained in my brain is like a unique special whole session that was pretty crazy for us. Nice, yeah. I think now having completed my Arc One, and I know Alex, you're gonna be slightly, like I love that session. Like finishing Arc One, I think that's my favorite session. You might disagree because it ended on a cliffhanger and you're very annoyed about that. But I thoroughly enjoyed that session because so much things that
00:49:44
Speaker
I'd been working on with another player behind the scenes came to fruition in that and then something two players had worked on generically also came to fruition in that one as well through like no prompting I said before like entirely Emma and Mike were completely
00:50:02
Speaker
in full control of that and that came to a great conclusion in that session as well. So that was my favourite one. I mean, roleplay-wise it was amazing. Me being a law gremlin doesn't help at all. I have to sit in this pain for six months or however long I do my arc one just thinking about what's going to happen next session.
00:50:24
Speaker
It's hell, it's a personal hell is what it is. But it being your personal hell is what makes it like cocaine for the DMs and everything. Yeah, exactly. I love a good cliffhanger. Yeah, we're probably one of my favorite moments in that regard from those in fables.
00:50:42
Speaker
How do I talk about this without spoiling it? I don't know if I can. There's a moment in the chapter of Iris, it's episode 16 ends with this kind of out of left field thing that resembles a certain
00:51:00
Speaker
very intense political thing that happened in America in real life and recent history. And none of my players were expecting that to happen. And so the session just kind of ended there in this, like,
00:51:16
Speaker
big political attack basically that happened in the middle of that campaign. And then we usually follow the end of our arcs with like a talkback episode. So it was going to be a while before we played again. So I just got to leave them with this like
00:51:32
Speaker
big thing that we ended we didn't even do like an outro for that episode or anything i just did the big reveal and then like the episode stopped and do like the you know normal hey listen to pose of vehicles or anything like that i was like no no no no we're i'm gonna do this and then we're gonna just cut it right there that was probably one of my favorite like cliffhanger blow everything up literally that's that's amazing cool guy walking away from explosion
Game Balance Through Storytelling
00:52:03
Speaker
What made this worse for you is, I mean, you will be a bit vocal on the podcast before about how Dan, your character was massively into his God, Elaz, like God of alcohol and toxicants, like very much about it. And you learned that at the end of the final session, you learned that not all the gods were asleep with some of them had been imprisoned and that you had no memory of these gods. Yes. And then.
00:52:26
Speaker
Your god alas told you about this. Yes after the session I messaged him being like if that's the biggest second favorite god, which would it be? Uh, and you gave me one and I was like cool. You now worship them because your god no longer exists After the session the audience can't hear how wide open my mouth is right Honestly after the session I was sat there like Already my my mind was broken
00:52:56
Speaker
already because the character I play in this campaign is stupid. I made him so it's my fault but I can't ask anyone questions because that's my character. He wouldn't ask people backstory questions which I hate because I love knowing things right? So I found out all this information and then Yuan just goes oh
00:53:20
Speaker
Your God's gone. So now his personality's changed a bit. It's just like, fuck. And I've just got to sit here for six months. Again, just... Yeah, so I'm intricately planning the world's greatest cliffhanger for the end of my arc one. To make everyone else suffer. We love bullying our friends. Why we do this? It's the only reason.
00:53:49
Speaker
Cool. So sometimes we get this question and we're going to ask you before we do. And I think you were about to do the same, Alex. What is your favorite class and subclass that they can be different things? OK, so for people who know me, I think I know what I'm going to say already or people who listen to the show maybe would know.
00:54:14
Speaker
I on a personal level and someone who you know left Christianity and faith behind a good while ago and everything and and Faith is not really a thing that I super agree with and and here in the States It's it's a kind of a big ugly monster that rears its head and a lot of yeah
00:54:34
Speaker
places where it doesn't belong. And thus my favorite class is Cleric for some reason. I'm sure a therapist could tell me. I fucking love Cleric so much. I love Cleric.
00:54:52
Speaker
That's really tough. If I'm not playing a cleric, I do really like playing paladins, which is basically a cleric just having done more push-ups. I think that,
Maintaining Combat Engagement
00:55:06
Speaker
I don't know if I can pick a subclass. I do really like the War Priest, which is what I play in our Spyro series. I play a War Priest cleric, because I really like that ability to just be like, no,
00:55:19
Speaker
I hit. I hit right now because I say so, which is great. But, yeah, if not that if I were to wander outside of the cleric territory, though, I think Glimstock, a ranger is pretty badass. Yeah, I haven't got one yet, but I really think the fun.
00:55:41
Speaker
I had been prepared for a one shot I was meant to do and it got canceled and it's still it's still in my I still got the stat sheet everything I haven't got to play it either but I think my favorite class from star wars 5e um that's like kind of a star wars 5e specific class is the scholar class that's what Angela is playing in our shimmer system um uh in our shimmer story um she's playing a scholar and it's basically like
00:56:10
Speaker
It's kind of just like a character who's intelligence based and like basically just gets to a bunch of feats like they get to kind of just build out the character and the specific things that they're good at.
00:56:25
Speaker
through, I think they're called maneuvers, but they're basically just like little mini feats that you get to kind of stack on top of each other. And it's such a cool class that's nothing like anything that's in standard 5e. I love scholars a lot. I'd probably do that as well. Yeah, I feel like that does sound interesting. I might have to read into that because I feel like I'd enjoy something like that. It's very cool.
00:56:49
Speaker
I think you said your favorite class. I think I got very excited because you are the first one, I think. And then you said war priest and I was like, no, you play them. You play the melee. Hey, remember how earlier I talked about how I played a barbarian who attacked like six times? Yeah. I like womping things. It's fun, but I like I like it.
00:57:15
Speaker
Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I do. I it's well, it's because also casters because they're so powerful, they have to be balanced against that. And it even happened in our War of Tricks and Treats campaign where Nathan was playing a floating jack-o'-lantern dude named Ha Ha Funny. And Ha Ha Funny was this incredibly powerful spellcaster. And I kept rolling above his saving throws and I kept a legendary resistance thing.
00:57:42
Speaker
It took basically a wombo combo between him and another player to overcome that and it was fucking awesome when it happened. But spellcasters just kind of get stonewalled a little bit because they have to be. Which I think that then opens up a whole conversation of ways to
00:58:04
Speaker
cater to spellcasting players and all that, and things that can be done mechanically to kind of benefit the spellcasters who rely more on saving throws than they do on rolls to hit and everything.
Crafting Memorable D&D Moments
00:58:19
Speaker
But yeah, that's why it's because nothing's nothing's more satisfying than saying I rolled a 28 I bonk and then yeah, I get it. I thoroughly agree with that statement. I endorse that statement. Hitting things is fun. I want that to be the quote for where you guys are promoting. Let's just be like, we got to have a wonderful conversation with Tanner as an arrow. I bonk. We'll do that. We'll have that put out. Thank you.
00:58:47
Speaker
Speaking on spellcasters being balanced, I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Alex when I made my character and see if your answer is similar. I asked him if I'm playing a very old lady pirate who's just getting back into the swing of things for one last hurrah. There are other things going on in the background, but that's the basic premise. How high can I put my charisma if I put a strength score of one?
00:59:19
Speaker
Um... His response was, what, 25? Which I've taken. I feel like I'm gonna be crazily overpowered.
00:59:28
Speaker
You'll hit things a lot. But you can't, that's my thing. A strength score of one impedes so much. I was just like, cool, yeah. I get that you're playing like an adult woman, but you know, with a strength score of one, she technically wouldn't be able to lift her body in any way. It'd be like having no bones.
00:59:53
Speaker
Well, one of the other players played my grandson, so he can carry me everywhere. Yes, good. That's always good. Carry your grandmother, boy. Carry you. That is crazy, though. You're crazy for saying yes to any ability score above 20, because I usually kind of put a hard cap on those just because that's where I'm like, I know how to balance within like the starting rules and everything.
01:00:19
Speaker
And only every now and then I've been like, you get a little treat of your, you know, whatever ability score you're getting to be 22 in certain campaigns. And knowing that you also have home-brewed, if it's the same campaign, you also have home-brewed subclasses, you're screwed. You're absolutely screwed. Oh yeah. I was expecting you to say like- She has to jump or walk anywhere, but you're screwed in every other facet.
01:00:45
Speaker
Oh, I've taken levitate as a spell. Nice. I was expecting you to say like 18 or 19 as like just picking, but like you came up with 25 and I was like, I'll take it. I'm not going to turn it down.
01:01:04
Speaker
I'm just trying to think about the logistical like this lady is literally just paper like she's paper. Yes, he's a paper human being. Yeah, a flat. I fully intend to exploit.
01:01:21
Speaker
that one strength. I will exploit that one strength. That's the only reason I was like, yeah, you can take 25. You will suffer with one strength.
Challenges in Campaign Storytelling
01:01:30
Speaker
I did say it to him as well. I love a negative though. I prefer negative stats to positive stats.
01:01:37
Speaker
Honestly, I think they're more fun I need big number make brain But also yeah, you should you should make him do stupid saving throws that are just like strength for no reason like yeah, like some spell that's clearly a wisdom save and just like You ask everyone else to give you a wisdom save but for I can't wait for
01:02:02
Speaker
a big wave to hit the boat and there's a granny with one strength to go flying somewhere because she's no strength. It's the idea that really anything that hits her should kill her like not like age aside just a straight sport she's a baby she's a newborn baby owner. In terms of that Alex I would say take a look at the race that I've chosen because strength of the deep or something like that as a sea elf I'm
01:02:30
Speaker
pretty okay. Yeah. She has seaweed bones. Yes, probably. Yeah. But yes, I'm absolutely going to be exploiting that for however long. Yeah, if a few sessions in we realized that the 25 is crazy, I'm obviously gonna be fine to take it down. Like I'm not gonna be like, No, I'm not doing that. Yeah. Cool. So
01:02:59
Speaker
I think we should go on to Joanne's favorite segment. Oh yes, the horror stories. Now, more time than not, people might have noticed, I don't read it before I do it. I just read the comments and the title because I want to be surprised. Now, read in the comments of this one, it seems controversial. So I thought, hmm, let's see what's going on.
01:03:29
Speaker
The title is my DM cheated in an important fight and it's killed my interest. So, Out of Abyss, spoilers ahead if anyone cares about that. Yeah, cool. Our group has been running Out of Abyss for a couple months. My character is a gnoll with a personal vendetta against Yunoku, and as he was, like all gnolls, controlled by his hunger until he was awakened via a warlock pact. Cool.
01:03:56
Speaker
So when we had the opportunity to fight the demon, the demon lord and the labyrinth, well it wasn't the choice for him. Either he would make him bleed, as we needed the blood of a demon lord prince for unrelated reasons, or he would die trying. This was his big fight, his climactic moment.
01:04:12
Speaker
And it started well. His first crossbow shot critted, and Eldritch Smite knocked him down. And even with a disadvantage, his second did as well. This whittled down his HP drastically. We played with maximized crits. It felt apt to put all the luck and rage in making his former god bleed. That is until the DM decided to ignore the stat block. He took a legendary action to cast teleport and close the distance to us. This was not an available option in the stat block.
Influence of Player Dynamics
01:04:38
Speaker
He has teleport one per day, but it's an action for him.
01:04:41
Speaker
One might also say that teleport is really not meant as a long range misty step and that it requires rolling even to move to a spot you can see. This was ignored. It also made him not be prone any longer, which was odd but fine I suppose. Not raw but I can see why. His next legendary action was to whip my character with the flail. Nothing odd here except that his legendary action flail only has the normal flail damage and not back on a failed save. It does not actually have the effects of his multi attack.
01:05:10
Speaker
The one that can paralyze or confuse and very clearly define this, each effect can only happen once per multi-attack. Fine. I failed the save, get paralyzed and knocked off a ledge. To the side, not directly away from him. Some of the party is fighting the gnolls, the rest is trying to hit the demon lord. His actual turn comes and he uses it to savage my paralyzed character. All hits crit because paralyzed, knocked to 0 HP of course. They shouldn't have critted the paralysis last until the start of his turn, I didn't know at the time.
01:05:39
Speaker
Fight keeps going. Bard uses Healing Word to get me up. I can tell the Demon Lord's close to dying. I had spells left, could have done it. Except before I get a chance, legendary action. He hits my character who hadn't gotten back up yet. Back to zero. More turns pass. Bard is paralyzed. Nobody else felt like healing. Wizardbladesinger, who hadn't touched the Demon Lord until then, shifts the tension from the gnolls to attack and finish off the Demon Lord with a single attack.
01:06:06
Speaker
I am pissed at this point. In a 4 round climactic fight I had a single turn. The DM allows the wizard to do intimidation check with advantage because she killed the demon lord, she fails miserably, so we're forced to spend the next 10 minutes killing off gnolls that are no threat in the slyest. My character is healed back to consciousness, he tries to reign them in as he has the presence and knowledge to lead gnolls himself. Bad roll, no advantage, because you didn't kill him.
01:06:30
Speaker
Bard argues that I did most of the job with those big crits at the start. GM, no it happened too fast, they didn't get to see it. At that point I didn't care anymore. Why did I bother writing this story if the DM wasn't going to care? There had been little to no RP with the wizard or the NPCs. If I wanted just some game mechanics I could play a computer RPG.
01:06:49
Speaker
It was only later that I saw the stack block that I saw the big gaps. The fight wasn't made harder to write a better story. It made it significantly worse. So the DM disregarded both the game aspect and the role-playing aspect. Any aspect, even losing and dying, would have been better. I have doubts on whether to even bother salvaging this. Far too late in the campaign. DMs, please don't play against your players. That is it.
01:07:15
Speaker
Interesting to make sure I got everything right was this this was a this wasn't the end of the campaign But a big like basically story arc fight.
DM's Role in Player Engagement
01:07:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah big story arc fight. Yeah Okay Yeah, he was just thinking that no one's
01:07:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of faults in here. The first one that I noticed is Players anyone listening to this who is a player who knows or you're a DM sometimes you're a player other time
01:07:51
Speaker
I don't give a fuck what you know about the step block. Yeah, that was it's behind the screen for a reason. So that if the DM like if the DM says they can do it, that overrules the step block. That doesn't matter that. Yeah. Stop being like, you're not following the step. He doesn't have to. Yeah. She they they don't have to follow a step like they're the DM doesn't matter.
01:08:20
Speaker
And also, however, however, to the player's point, it sounds like the DM then also like the biggest thing rather than nitpicking everything. The biggest thing was that it sounds to me like the DM was inconsistent.
01:08:39
Speaker
with their own lore and their own ruling. Yes. Yes. Which, when that is readily apparent, doesn't work. And you have to be consistent with your players. If you're going to put something on the other side of the screen, where they can see, it has to maintain consistency.
01:09:01
Speaker
even if you're gonna get whomped because it sounds like this story is the DM's monster what immediately got was getting whomped he they had to turn around and basically even the playing field and so that this fight felt climactic which understandable
01:09:23
Speaker
but then there were decisions beyond, you know, trying to basically rectify the initial whompage that took place that overcompensated were inconsistent and undervalued player agency and player creation, which is ultimately probably the biggest problem, but also the player shouldn't be holding, no player can hold a DM accountable for what they think or know is on a stat block for a creature.
01:09:54
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know. I fully agree with editing the stat block because would that player felt better in that moment if the DM had gone, Oh, you've crit. It's dead. The fight's over. You've won. You've defeated this big enemy in your backstory.
Managing Expectations for Balanced Gameplay
01:10:17
Speaker
in like a round, yeah. Cool, like, how did your character feel when you've done that? It was, you know, you hit him once, and it's gone. Yeah.
01:10:28
Speaker
But at the same time, I don't know if as the DM, I would have gone as hard on that player and paralyzed them so they weren't in the fight and not participating in that back. Because that's not fun. Like it might make sense, but again, it's a fantasy game. Sometimes you have to be like, oh, it's a major part of this player's backstory. How shit is it going to feel for them if they are just paralyzed watching their friends finish their backstory?
01:10:54
Speaker
yeah so top comment was believe it or not altering stack blocks even in modules is not cheating um basically every dm does this someone then replied saying i i i kind of i kind of see this point it's not against this they said relying on assuming stack blocks can't be changed is metagaming i was like
01:11:17
Speaker
kind of because if you're under these like if you saw if you know the stat blocks of monsters you're gonna fight and then you go in and you do an amount of damage and you're like cool he's nearly dead um and i'll tell everyone that is basically metagaming because the dm could have just changed the stat block made it a lot more difficult
01:11:41
Speaker
And then with your assumption of the stat block, it's like, yeah, cool. Basically dead. I'll tell everyone. Yeah. But I think if I did that, I'd be inclined to change the step. Yeah. I, I shouldn't suddenly the tab with the monster stat block would close all of a sudden, but suddenly I'm looking at Tarasque stats. Yeah. Um,
01:12:11
Speaker
But yeah, a lot of it is people arguing about the stat block change. People are saying the stat box isn't cheating, but this was cheating.
01:12:24
Speaker
Cheating is a hard time to use in D&D, I think. It's hard to cheat at a game where you kind of decide the rules. Yeah, it's not cheating. It just wasn't run well by the sound of it. The DM just dropped the ball and was too married to however, though, if we're going to have a by the sounds of this story.
01:12:49
Speaker
If we have a player who's going to bring up the you change the stat block argument and a DM who's who's going to like basically punish the player for doing really well against their fight from the beginning and making them feel embarrassed and like they have to counterbalance their encounter on the fly. It sounds like a terrible table. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. An awful table on all fronts. I can't imagine what the other players are like.
01:13:19
Speaker
Good Lord. Yeah.
Consistent Gameplay Experience
01:13:23
Speaker
I hate the notion that some DMs have.
01:13:27
Speaker
It's me versus my players. I hate it more than anything. I don't say people play D&D wrong. You're playing D&D wrong if you think you're against your players. Very recently I was listening to NADpod and weirdly enough, Brian Murphy made a comparison to wrestling that I thought was fantastic in one of their dungeon courts that they do.
01:13:52
Speaker
uh and he was like there's wrestlers who are basically like the bad guy and that's like their storyline when they step out of the ring and and what we call that when they're doing a good job of being the bad guys they have good heat so they they've got the heat on them everyone hates them but everyone is excited to see that person get whomped
01:14:11
Speaker
in that moment as a DM you want a certain amount of good heat you want your players to be like we're gonna fucking get you and you want you want them to be a little bit torches and pitch works towards you and have that good heat of like basically you know giving that a little bit of antagonistic energy toward them
01:14:32
Speaker
However, this is a good example of bad heat, or no, what they called it, they called it on that, but it was go away heat, which is someone who's in the ring, who's not supposed to be there, and everyone hates them because they hate them and want them to leave, not because they hate them and want to see them get beaten. They don't want them in the match at all. And this seems like the DM was asking for too much go away heat versus the good heat and wasn't like,
01:15:01
Speaker
was was actively trying to like you can't be out to get your players because you win you like you can't think of it like that you can't punish that you're not their parent that's not how this works you've got to give them a challenge to overcome and you know what sometimes you get warped
01:15:17
Speaker
Sometimes that's just what happens. I had a monster who was supposed to be a whole episode in our first season. I didn't hit my players once. Not once did I land a single attack against my players. It was awesome. It was super funny and it was great. So sometimes you got to get one. That's just part of playing the game. Those are some of my favorite moments. I mean, we had
01:15:40
Speaker
The slot. Oh, yeah. He said, we'll talk about the side in a minute, because that's also great. But I think this is my favorite one. I've heard of a DM being. I think he agrees when he's outsmarted. They had a Wyvern rider and obviously the Wyvern attacking the players.
01:15:57
Speaker
And he said one of his players cast Command, and he was like, oh, he's like immune to it. And he was like, oh, I'm not casting it on the rider. I'm casting it on the Wyvern. And he was like, oh, yeah, oh, that would work. Yeah, I mean, it's one person versus three to six people across around you. Sometimes you're gonna get outsmarted no matter what.
01:16:25
Speaker
But then, you know, those moments are why the DM should get to retreat and change stuff behind the screen and everything.
Role of Communication in Campaigns
01:16:34
Speaker
And no player should have any any knowledge you have. If you're playing in the campaign, any any stat block you know about, throw it out the window. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even if it does matter, assume it doesn't have a better time.
01:16:50
Speaker
I would be interested to see if that player had the same opinion if they DMed and if they ever considered.
01:16:56
Speaker
Do I change this? Do I add an extra one on the health there? Do I bump it slightly? Because if you've never DMed, I don't really think you get to have an opinion on this. That block needs changing immediately. Yeah, absolutely. 100% that player would for sure just be adding hit points and tapping in hit points. No doubt. At the beginning of that, yeah, for sure. Literally, the first time I DMed,
01:17:24
Speaker
uh for the one shot which i did for some world building background for the upcoming campaign like a few months ago basically they skipped all the fights i planned apart from the final one because they had to do that and they others they were battering these enemies i sat there i was adding health i was like no this is not ending yet you will fight longer i've had enough yeah no they absolutely would change the stat block um
01:17:51
Speaker
And honestly, in the comments, it's just players versus DMs. You can tell because there are people like, I've experienced the same thing. The DM fucked me, I was so annoyed. I was just like, well.
01:18:06
Speaker
Is this from Reddit? Is that where you get these? Always. Always. That feels like Reddit comment thread. To just be a silo of an opinion and taking zero outside opinions from it. Yeah, that feels like Reddit.
01:18:23
Speaker
Yeah, because I don't think we got it. And I really want to talk about this story because it's an episode where it didn't get released. But we had a player who would post it. Am I the problem after heading? And it was it was I think one of the saddest things I've ever read because it was very much a narrative player in a very combat focused game with like
01:18:44
Speaker
he wanted they wanted to sit down and close the eyes of a dead NPC and spend the moment praying they wanted to do sending stones to their parents and the DM was like now I haven't got time for this we'll cut back to you later you do that like off screen and it was very much they were like am I the problem player am I the problem I was like no
01:19:01
Speaker
You are absolutely not the problem in this and reddit was like, yes, you're the problem And I feel like in basically any single problem solving thing not just for dnd but Excuse me any problem solving thing in dnd boils down to communication and if you're doing it
01:19:29
Speaker
Basically every single problem can be solved. That is basically Armato on this channel.
Addressing Player Concerns
01:19:38
Speaker
That is Armato. Maybe be very thorough in your campaign write up, like just something. We've both had this before, but for a game where it is literally about social interaction and talking to your friend, nobody fucking talks to each other about their actual problems.
01:19:58
Speaker
yeah it's um it's our biggest point and we we've read this must have been our 26th or 25th horror story we've read or something like that we've read and I'd say like 20 of them it's just because they don't talk to each other some of them have been horrendous we we have yes
01:20:20
Speaker
What you've got, our ranked worst one is microtransaction campaign is basically what it was. I think this person ended up spending 700 euros to their DM. Real money. Yeah. On like getting equipment, keeping their character alive. They were just getting exploited. And it wasn't even the person who wrote the horror story. It was a player at that table.
01:20:45
Speaker
And it honestly most insane story and that person posted other stories about that DM, which I can't read on this channel because they're insane. Wildest thing we've ever read. It's absolutely crazy. Yeah.
01:21:00
Speaker
The main problem with that was it was the player would peck to come back alive and then the DM was focusing their more so they were dying more and then just paying more. It was just a horrible cycle of just bad DMing and just horrible horrible horrible person. Yeah. You be soft his entire table. Yeah. Honestly, what is wrong with people and what's wrong with me because I was like I could start doing that.
01:21:33
Speaker
Yeah, it was um, it's absolutely I think the worst story we've had we've got close To having worse, but that's definitely like a cult that feels like yeah like how a cult leader like takes advantage of people and like Separates them from society that feels like that
01:21:54
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. My official statement on that is, ugh. That's been everyone's statement on that one. It's just horrific. I genuinely can't believe that happened to some extent because it's just. My biggest qualm of it as well was no one else said anything because this happened for like 10 months at their table. No other player or person said anything. Were they friends or were they like?
01:22:25
Speaker
I just I have how does it get that bad? I don't understand. I don't understand how anything you're going to find it. I'll find it.
01:22:37
Speaker
I seem to remember them being like, don't send him money because we're not doing that. Everyone else was like declining like, oh, we're not paying to get magic items. We're not paying to come back alive. But this guy was and they were like, you need to leave the campaign. Don't stop playing. Stop paying him. Guys, you all should stop unionize as players. What are you talking about? What are you absolutely talking about? Oh, my God.
01:23:01
Speaker
yeah it was the wildest thing i've read honestly crazy story um i think it's actually now that you say that i think when they they went to talk to the dm about it i'm so sure he threatened them i'm so sure oh yeah he didn't he threw them or something yeah he threatened to do something i can't remember what it was
01:23:25
Speaker
This DM is everything about capitalism that I absolutely despise and hate. I hope he's stepping in. I'm angry. I hope that dude trips on a pebble. I said it. I won't take it back.
01:23:50
Speaker
I think the worst bit for me is thinking about that as well. If that's your first game as a player, you're never touching D&D again. And that is so sad. Because it's such a great game. It is so much fun. Especially with the whole point is to escape reality and suddenly your money is being held at short sword point. What the hell? That's insane. That makes me angry.
01:24:20
Speaker
I'm really trying to find it now. I've got in my safe somewhere, but it's really bad. It's honestly a really bad story. If you find it after this, you can email it to me so I can be mad. If I do it on your guys's show, it's just going to be a lot of nobody wants to listen to that.
01:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, I'll find it and I'll send it. I'll send over. It's it's it's really bad. Yeah. Um, actually sort of a question I've never asked before, but I think I have a strong opinion on this. What is your favorite class to not play but DM for? Oh, that's a great question. I feel like I've gotten to DM for a lot. Um,
01:25:13
Speaker
I think, honestly, I think my favorites would probably be the ones that have been the most difficult, which I think are, at this point, when Nathan was playing Oliver Hoff in Evergreen in Iris as a artificer, that was kind of challenging to...
01:25:38
Speaker
Get what he needed and honestly Nathan kind of had to in in certain aspects kind of meet me in the middle a little bit more to tater to his player or tater to his character and get the character of Oliver kind of what.
01:25:55
Speaker
you know, Oliver needed for the campaign or was wanting to accomplish, as well as the the scholar in Star Wars 5e, because the scholar is not a combat character. It can be, but it's really tough to build it that way. And the character that Angela specifically is playing is not a combat person. And it took me a little bit into the campaign to
01:26:24
Speaker
start to kind of cater to that type of character, which I had had in mind before we started. But I think it was one of those things where I didn't really get a good grasp on it until partway through actually, you know, sitting at the table and playing and trying to come up with specific game mechanics that only Angela's character, Mavia, could accomplish.
01:26:50
Speaker
and could accomplish better than other people within encounters while blasters are getting fired and everything all around her. But she's got to accomplish this separate thing that's going to assist the encounter and everything. And it just added a very specific element to encounter design that I really enjoyed. So weirdly enough, I think any time I've ever had a tough time,
01:27:15
Speaker
DMing for a specific kind of class. Those are probably my favorites. Artificer and scholar, probably. Yeah, very nice.
Preference for Playing as a Warlock
01:27:25
Speaker
I think personally, for me, I think the only correct answer is Warlock. I think that patron dynamic, I just love that because it's so I feel like it's more in integrated than the cleric paladin kind of relation you have with your deity. The patron one, I think there's so much narrative you can do that. I just
01:27:45
Speaker
I love being, I love both playing a warlock and being someone's patron and just throwing spanners in the works occasionally. I just get so much fun. You can cause so much. Yeah.
01:27:57
Speaker
Not sure yet, I'll find out. I'll find out which one I'll enjoy the most. You will. Warlocks are also tough because you got to be careful because I feel like warlocks are the easiest ones to kind of look the same across every player and across every character, even regardless of what subclass you go for. Warlocks, I feel like, do take a little extra work to make it unique. Not that it's...
01:28:24
Speaker
I think it is just something that is not tough to make unique, but easy to fall into tropes and common storylines for sure. Yeah. Cool.
Shoutouts and Gratitude
01:28:38
Speaker
So a question.
01:28:41
Speaker
we tend to ask uh people towards the end of our episode is about any other creators you'd like to to shout out small big any oh yeah um
01:28:54
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Well, now I'm on the spot and I'm going to forget all. Everybody does that. Shout out on a more on a more personal level. Just a big shout out to all my friends who who make this show with me and and help make those tables a thing. And as much as I kind of helm the project and everything, I literally literally wouldn't be able to do it by myself. So I a big shout out to
01:29:21
Speaker
all my friends and the people who support our show and everything. Firstly, I'm really excited this year because we're going to GenCon, which is going to be a super fun time and we're finally going to meet a bunch of people who we are friends with.
01:29:36
Speaker
who have been super supportive and everything online as we've been making the show now for two years and kind of connecting with people. So a couple of big shout outs. I'd say probably the biggest one to the kind of one of our connections who's
01:29:55
Speaker
been very vocal about their help with us and has always offered great guidance and everything is Diana of the Rose. She's fantastic, fantastic creator. Her and Endeavorance have that incredible world building podcast, The Atlas Loom, which is great, fantastic show. And
01:30:18
Speaker
The various different people that drop out, Rick Perry, Michael Shabak, who have been supportive of us and have appeared on the show and everything. It's always really funny and cool, just kind of regularly seeing Rick Perry interact with our stuff online.
01:30:34
Speaker
And he's amazing. Fantastic. Such a talented crew of people over there. So a big shout out and thanks to them. And yeah, again, I'm sure after this, I'm going to be like, why didn't I mention such? Basically, anybody we've gotten to have on our show and is supporting us, a big shout out to them. And we're super thankful.
Closing and Future Episodes
01:30:59
Speaker
that, you know, we get to make this show and do the thing that we love together and that other people get to enjoy it too. And thankful for shows like Lich Please, who have fun to talk about stuff and get me both excited about things and yelling about others. Yeah, exactly. Cool. Well, thank you very much for joining us. We've all loved having you on. Yeah. And yeah, if you ever want to come back on, we would obviously welcome you back anytime.
01:31:28
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, thank you very much for watching. We will hopefully at some point get everyone from Monday campaign on and have a complete arc one rundown. Unfortunately, someone very selfishly decided to move to New Zealand. There are going to be interesting. Can't believe they did that. But yeah.
01:31:53
Speaker
We are on, as you guys know, every platform, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon, Google, wherever you want to find us, all the best podcast websites. We are there. And we will see you next week. Bye. Bye bye.