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With Chris Sinkinson
82 Plays3 years ago
Chris Sinkinson chats with Andy and Kristi about using your passions to share the gospel. For him, archaeology and the history of the ancient world opens up the Bible as a rich historical document - where we discover the amazing person of Jesus Christ.
Chris Sinkinson is on the teaching staff at Moorlands College. He has been involved in Christian ministry with UCCF as a Regional Staff worker and as a Church pastor. He was the senior pastor of Alderholt Chapel in Dorset for over ten years. His current research interests are in the archaeology of the Galilee on which he continues to write and be involved in fieldwork.
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Transcript
Introduction and Call to Action
00:00:00
Speaker
Thanks for listening to pep talk if you're enjoying the podcast There's one way you can really help us out and that's by going to your podcast provider whether that's the iTunes Store or Google Play or Spotify wherever it is you get your podcasts from and Rating the show and if your podcast provider gives you the opportunity also leaving a brief review Because that helps other people find pep talk and get plugged into all the great resources that we have here for you Thank you so much
Meet the Hosts and Guest
00:00:37
Speaker
Hello and welcome to pep talk. I'm Kristy Mayer and I'm joined by the wonderful Andy Bannister. Andy, hi, how are you doing today? I am. I'm doing well, Kristy. I am doing well. I need your levels up, caffeine levels up. There's no correlation, I'm sure. We're joined today by our wonderful guest, Chris Sinkinson.
Chris Sinkinson's Background
00:00:57
Speaker
Chris, welcome. Thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you so much. Good to be with you. Well, thank you so much for your time. I mean,
00:01:04
Speaker
You spend most of your time, I believe, as a lecturer in theology at Morelands College. Is that right? That's right. That's what I do through most of the week. So Morelands College down on the south coast. And we have a pretty busy program. Some people think we have long vacations, but I can assure you that a term is very full and very packed.
00:01:26
Speaker
lies. I know, I can absolutely relate to that. But you've got enough of your hats though, haven't you Chris? You've come through UCCF, you've done so many things. Please, like, would you share with us a bit of a potted kind of tour as to where you've come from and how that's shaped what you're doing now?
00:01:44
Speaker
Right, yeah, sure. Well, I mean, I became a Christian through college, College Christian Union. And then at university, I was only a very, very young Christian when I started university. So just a few months, literally. So it was all kind of new to me. And I was studying archaeology. And then I actually changed subjects. I didn't complete an archaeology degree. I ended up completing a degree of philosophy. And all of that was because, you know, my interest really was in ideas and people.
00:02:14
Speaker
I've still got an interest in archaeology, but that interest in people obviously connects very well with evangelism, wanting to share our faith, wanting to talk to people to be honest. And so it was quite a natural step for me to go from being a student, being involved in the Christian Union at Southampton and later at Bristol, and then working with the UCCF and the South West of England in University and College's Christian Fellowship. So
00:02:39
Speaker
I went from there to working in church ministry so I was involved as pastor a couple of different churches before I finally, well not finally hopefully because this isn't the end of the story I hope, but at the moment I've ended up teaching in a Bible college setting.
Archaeology and Faith
00:02:55
Speaker
Now, I mean, there's so many bits of your bio and your story fascinating, because the one that really fascinates me is the Indiana Jones routine going on. In fact, actually, it's appropriate, right? Because anyone who knows the South Coast, there you are. Down on the South Coast, you've got the Jurassic Coast, which is full of old fossils. And I won't do any good. No, there was no link. Don't try and put words in my mouth. I can see where Christian was going. So there you are.
00:03:23
Speaker
What I'm most concerned about is we're going to confuse paleontology with archaeology. No, no. I know. It was a terrible link. It was absolutely. I know it was a terrible link, but I had to just. It's the one that occurred. But yes.
00:03:38
Speaker
But digging things out of the ground, thank you for everyone listening at home game. There's a reason Banis is a philosopher, because he knows nothing about anything else. But Chris, why does digging stuff up, why does history and the path, archeology, not dinosaurs, what drew you into that and why are you excited about it? Because that's not accidental to the way that you share your faith and go about presenting Christ persuasively. So what's the link for people who've never thought that archeology
00:04:06
Speaker
was a thing that Christians would be excited in about.
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, great. I mean, I like the way that that poses the question because you're absolutely right. I do find there's a natural way of sharing my faith because of the interest in archaeology. But what I would want to be honest about is I've always loved archaeology. I mean, I go back to when as a child, I used to love that kind of thing. I used to love finding old things and trying to understand where they come from. And, hey, you mentioned Indiana Jones when that big movie Raiders of the Lost Ark came out. I was a little boy in shorts, just absolutely bowled over by Raiders of the Lost Ark.
00:04:39
Speaker
So my interest in archaeology was not, you know, subsequent to becoming a Christian. It had already been kind of in my blood. And when I became a Christian, one of the things that stood out to me right from the beginning is the Bible is a historical text. I mean, it's other things as well. And when I share my faith, I might want to talk about other aspects of what the Bible is as scripture.
Validation of the Bible Through Archaeology
00:05:03
Speaker
But even laying that aside, the Bible is historical text. It's historical document. And therefore, the connection to archaeology is really apparent because if you love the Bible, you really do need to love, it seems to me, history and are understanding the ancient world. So I find the world of archaeology is a great one for showing my faith because the
00:05:26
Speaker
The early archaeologists, you know, I mean this is a historical fact, the early archaeologists cut their teeth in the Holy Land, what we call the Holy Land. You name them, the pioneers of archaeology, Henry Austin Layard, Flinders Petrie, Kathleen Kenyon,
00:05:41
Speaker
These are big names in the world of archaeology, and they learn their trade, if you like, in the Holy Land, in the region of the Bible events. And so that kind of connection seems to me to be very, very close and means that even with secular folk who may say they have no interest in faith or miracles or God, they can be talking about the land of the biblical events, you know, the cities of Jericho and Hatzor and Jerusalem, right at the heart of our understanding of the ancient world.
00:06:12
Speaker
Chris, when I was just 18 years old, my first work experience placement was with the archeology department in Thurmaston in Leicester. And I was just like, this is what I really want to do. I want to go to Egypt. I want to learn all about all these things. And I just find this utterly fascinating. Thank you so much for investing your time and wisdom in this. As a Christian, what does it look like for you to
00:06:38
Speaker
I like to talk to non-Christians. I guess it's not the easiest thing to bring up in conversation, looking at some of these archaeological historical facts. How do you even go about introducing it in a conversation? How does this help you communicate your faith?
00:06:57
Speaker
Well, one of the things I've noticed, and I mean, Kristy, this applies very, very generally. One of the things I've noticed is that when somebody has a real passion for something, a real interest in something, they can actually awaken an enthusiasm for the topic with anyone else they talk to. You know, they may have an absolute obsession with 1980s Ford Capris. And you think, I don't know.
00:07:20
Speaker
Well, once you start meeting an enthusiast who talks about these things, you can catch some of that enthusiasm and think, wow, I've never thought about that before. And actually finding those things that we're really passionate about, connecting them.
00:07:34
Speaker
And everything does connect with the God of the Bible, you know, one way or another, all truth is God's truth. So one way or another, there is a route to the God of the Bible. Sometimes it's a simpler route, I think, than other times. But that passion we have and the things that really interest us, I often say to students, you know, rather than trying to
00:07:52
Speaker
have a very superficial knowledge of lots of things. Find that thing that really interests you. You know, whether it's the, I don't know, the films of Terrence Malick or the literature of Tolkien or whatever it might be. That thing that really interests you. Immerse yourself in it. Make those connections in terms of your personal faith. You know, why do these things matter? Why does it connect with that longing deep inside of us? And then see how it goes in conversation because
00:08:18
Speaker
You know, it's wonderful how so many different areas of life can open up the opportunity to share our faith.
Integrating Personal Interests with Faith Sharing
00:08:23
Speaker
I got a lot of this, Christi, actually, when I became a Christian. I was studying philosophy, I said, and I love philosophy. But at Southampton University, one of the things I struggled with is I couldn't find Christians talking about the philosophers, like at that time, anyway, David Hume and so on, until I discovered that just up the road, there was a place called the Labrie Fellowship. And Labrie was founded by Francis Schaeffer.
00:08:47
Speaker
Now, once I got hold of the works of Francis Schafer and met some of the folk at La Brie, it really opened my eyes to the way in which he was a missionary, Francis Schafer, you know, he was an evangelist on the mission field, who instinctively loved people, loved ideas, loved understanding culture.
00:09:06
Speaker
And it really comes through. We can fault Francis Schaeffer, actually, for a lot of the topics he wrote on. There are lots of areas where maybe he wasn't quite right in his understanding. But I think the passion of Schaeffer to understand people and understand culture overwhelms all of that. And that really sparked in me what I met in Schaeffer in his work. I never met him as a person. But what I met in his work really sparked in me that sense that actually any area of life can become an opportunity to share our faith.
00:09:35
Speaker
and build a bridge really for the gospel. That's hugely helpful advice, Chris, if that reminds me that we had, you know, not so long ago on pep talk, we had Dan Strange. And for folks, I think you want to, you know, get their head around how to connect your, you know, the ideas and things you're passionate about to culture as well as listening to this show with Chris. You know, do listen to the episode with Dan where we talked about plugged in his book on that, because I think you're absolutely right. So often we try and
00:10:04
Speaker
you know, sort of cultivate an interest scenario that's not ours, but just find the things you're passionate about and find this connection. So for archaeology, you know, I suppose what are, you know, what are the connections? You're obviously really excited about it, you know, for someone who's listening to this who never really thought about it, you know, how would you communicate some of that enthusiasm? What are some of the things that get you excited as a Christian about it, that perhaps have some gospel connections as you unpack them?
00:10:28
Speaker
Yeah. Well, the big picture thing here is that for all the other things we might say about the Bible, the Bible is rooted in real time and real space. So it's to do with real geography, real people, and real places. And we can demonstrate that. And archaeology has demonstrated that. Now, we could talk about areas of debate. And this is a bit of the area of like a glass half full, glass half empty kind of conversation we get into. Because there are some debatable areas. There's the glass half full bit where we can have the debate.
00:10:58
Speaker
But the glass half full emphasizes that there is such a wealth of material in the Bible that fits with what we know of the ancient world. In some areas, in fact, the Bible has recorded things from the ancient world that were lost to history and have since been rediscovered. So, for example, an area that I'm interested in, there's a particular excavation I've been involved in for a few years.
00:11:23
Speaker
which is the discovery of not just one lost city from the ancient world, but two lost cities that buried one below the other. In fact, there's actually probably about four or five settlement levels, each one built on top of the other. And they turn out to be almost certainly the New Testament town of Bethsaida.
00:11:42
Speaker
which we read about in the Gospels, a very significant town in the Gospels, which until the 1980s, no one had a clue where it was. Well, they had a clue, but no one knew where Bethsaida was. In fact, some critics said the Gospel writers were just confused. They were confusing Bethsaida.
00:11:58
Speaker
And they were confused about the Galilee because they didn't understand the geography of the first century. That's been overturned now. In fact, there are two locations quite close to each other, which are probably associated with the Bethsaida of the New Testament. So since the 1980s, 1990s, we can be absolutely sure that the historical writers of the gospels were aware of real history and real places when they talk about the town of Bethsaida. We know a lot about that town now, actually.
00:12:25
Speaker
And digging down below, which is the area I've been interested in, is a much earlier city. And this is the city of Geshe, almost certainly. It's the capital city of the people of Geshe. Now, you may not have heard of the Geshe rights and the people of Geshe, but the Bible refers to them thousands of years ago at the time of King David. And this people of Geshe, we knew nothing about until the 1990s. We were really in the dark in terms of the archaeology. We knew about them from the Bible.
00:12:54
Speaker
We knew next to nothing about them outside of the Bible, but now we know a great deal about them. Because the archaeology has shown not only the existence of a major town for a particular region at the time of David, but also its culture, its religious life, its architecture. So we actually know a lot about the Gesherites now. All of these things I'm telling you are really only from the last few years. The last couple of decades at most these have emerged, and that's part of the fruit of archaeology.
00:13:22
Speaker
Now, that's a very specific example, Andy, so obviously that's drilling down into one particular one, but we could multiply that with evidence upon evidence where the Bible speaks of the ancient world and discloses information that we can confirm with the use of a trowel or the use of a spade.
Engaging Interest in the Bible Through Archaeology
00:13:42
Speaker
It's just utterly fascinating hearing about this, Chris, because it just adds another layer of, I mean, you know, Christ is already credible, but it adds another kind of, there's a rich texture to our faith. And I think particularly, you know, maybe for listeners hearing this, who have never visited like those particular locations and maybe never will, you know, just being reminded that these are real people, real times, real places that
00:14:10
Speaker
that have existed is just wonderfully encouraging. What do you think it might look like for a non-specialist? So just like for the average person who's hearing what you've just said and they're thinking, wow, this sounds amazing. But how on earth would I go about talking about this as a non-archaeologist with someone else, with my friends or family? What kind of advice would you give them?
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, part of my problem is that I obviously, in terms of specialism, I tend to get so excited about the details. There's lots of details I want to share. And I think my general advice would be, OK, don't worry too much about details. Look at the sort of headlines here that we're talking about. Keep the headlines in mind. So, for example, this is one headline, kind of a piece of information to keep in mind. Many of our non-Christian friends will have been sold the myth.
00:15:09
Speaker
that the Bible records information that has no historical backing. So in other words, it's fairy tale. It's the world of legend.
00:15:19
Speaker
Now, the headline is that archaeology over the last few years is able to confirm from the ancient world the historicity of at least 53 individuals in the Old Testament. So we're not even talking about the New Testament, which is a different story, but 53 from the Old Testament. Now, those are characters that we know about that we mentioned in the Old Testament.
00:15:41
Speaker
But we know about them from extra biblical, outside of the Bible, archaeological material evidence in the ancient world. So we've got statues or signet rings or clay stamps or inscribed pottery, which will have the names of those individuals. Now, 53.
00:15:58
Speaker
and counting by the way because originally when the biblical archaeology review published a peer-reviewed article on this it recorded 50 names and then within four years it had to release an updated article because there were another three and that number does grow there's a few other names as well which aren't absolutely certain I mean we've got a seal with the name of Isaiah the prophet we have one with Jezebel that's known with Jezebel we can't be absolutely sure that those are authentic or belong to the right
00:16:25
Speaker
the personalities in the Bible, they may just be the same names. So the
Archaeology's Role in Faith Discussions
00:16:29
Speaker
53 are the firm ones. Now why is this a headline? Because now let's do a contrast. I've talked about the Old Testament. Now that covers a period from about, let's say, 1800 BC with Abraham, down through to about 500 BC, 400 BC with Ezra and Nehemiah. So that's a period we're talking about. Really that whole period, 1000 BC up to 500 BC.
00:16:54
Speaker
How many names of anybody do we know in Britain from that period? From before the arrival of the Romans, in fact. Let's take it to the first century. How many names of anybody do we know from before the time when the Romans arrived? Britain had a big, there was a lot going on in Britain,
00:17:10
Speaker
Britain was a busy place. The archaeological record gives us lots of information about Stonehenge and Silbury Hill and hill forts and monuments and the tin trade. There was a big tin trade from Cornwall. Lots was going on, but we have zero names. No names. We just have no names. We don't know who these people were. We don't know what their names were. We don't have personalities. We don't have identities.
00:17:35
Speaker
So therefore the contrast is we turn to the bible and we find a book rich in historical material. 53 names is a lot of names for material that comes from two to three thousand or more years ago. And the comparison with someone like Britain
00:17:52
Speaker
really emphasizes just how significant that historical material is. So, you know, that's the kind of headline that I would use to emphasize whatever the debates might be. The Bible is rich in history. It lends itself to testing and confirmation, and it keeps on passing those tests.
00:18:11
Speaker
That's really helpful, Chris. Actually, the other archaeological kind of link to evangelism I came across, I had a friend of mine a few years ago who had got herself, it was a replica of a Roman denarius, the coin from the time of Jesus, and had it as a necklace. And the starting point would be people would obviously ask what it was.
00:18:32
Speaker
And that's a great, you know, she would use that as a way in to go, oh, well, that's that's a Roman denarius. And, you know, it's a coin that's mentioned there in the Bible. And I was a really cute little way of doing off piece of of jewelry. But that that evangelism link is that is that I'd like to just talk about perhaps in our last.
00:18:49
Speaker
a few minutes. Obviously we need to be careful not to say too much, we can't as Christians go. There's some archaeology, therefore the whole of Christianity is true, but of course you're passionate about archaeology, you're also passionate about the gospel, you're an evangelist and you share your faith, so how can we then make that link from, hey archaeology is fun, there's lots of stuff here, what's the bridge that you then take people across
00:19:15
Speaker
into the Jesus story. We don't want our friends to go away going, archaeology is exciting. We want them going away going, archaeology is exciting, but Jesus is exciting. So how do you get there?
00:19:26
Speaker
That's great, and that little illustration of the necklace is a good way into thinking about this really, because what I would say about this archaeology to evangelism link is actually the proving of the Bible is only one aspect, and not always the most important aspect, if I can put it that way. Proof is sometimes a very difficult thing, because after all, we could never prove
00:19:50
Speaker
the entirety of the Bible. I mean, archaeology isn't really about that. In fact, in some ways, archaeologists are very suspicious of apologetics because what archaeologists often feel is that apologists or evangelists are cherry picking the bits that fit and only using those to try and persuade. And that can actually be a misuse of archaeology.
00:20:13
Speaker
What archaeology can do in a somewhat more, it may sound more limited, but I've in my personal experience found it really helpful. It intrigues people to want to know more about this person Jesus and about the Bible. Because what I find is that once you start to open up, that hey, the Gospels give us these amazing little insights into the first century world. Lots of little details that give us insight into the world of Jesus.
00:20:38
Speaker
I find that people can be really intrigued to take the Bible seriously as history, even to read the Gospels in that way. I find people can be quite resistant when the Bible is presented as a religious text. If we're giving them the impression, this is a faith text and it's a religious decision.
00:20:55
Speaker
The very word religion, you remember C.S. Lewis' famous line that the very word religion can paralyze feelings. It can freeze people's emotions. It speaks of stained glass windows or hospital wards. Whereas archaeology reminds us of the history, the physicality of this.
00:21:15
Speaker
that sense of drawing people into taking the Bible seriously as history and actually being fascinated now, not by the archaeology in itself, but by this person Jesus. Because in the end, when we read about Jesus, the starting point is we're reading about a real personal history
00:21:33
Speaker
And isn't it remarkable that 2,000 years later it continues to have this incredible global impact? Julius Caesar doesn't have that impact. Hadrian doesn't have that impact. What is it about this man Jesus who remains so magnetic and has transformed so many lives? So I find archaeology in that sense is a way of intriguing people and drawing them in.
00:21:57
Speaker
to taking seriously the person of jesus and then that's where i want to put the emphasis rather than just trying to say we can prove everything about jesus because obviously you know that then is in danger of going beyond what archaeology can actually do.
Conclusion and Future Episodes
00:22:11
Speaker
Well chris that's fascinating and i and actually i particularly love the idea of intriguing
00:22:16
Speaker
that I think sometimes when we go wrong on evangelism is we feel we have to dump everything on our friends straight away. But if we intrigue people and then sort of see how it all opens things up. Well, it's been absolutely fascinating conversation. We have dug into a topic that we haven't covered on this show before. See what I did there, Kristy? But I'm sure. The drum roll. Yeah. Well, Chris, thank you so much for being with us. It's been great to have had you as a guest on the show. Thanks, Kristy. Thank you, Andy.
00:22:45
Speaker
And to all of you listening at home or on the car or on your run, wherever you're catching this podcast, Chris and I have loved having you with us and we'll be back in two weeks time with a fresh guest and a new topic. So do catch us again on pep talk. Thanks for listening.