Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
With Jeremy Marshall
147 Plays3 years ago
"And then something strange happened..." probably means you're about to hear about what the Holy Spirit has been doing in someone's life. As today's guest reminds us, God is at work in far, far more people than we know. With some fantastic thoughts on sharing faith, especially in the face of suffering, Jeremy Marshall chats with Andy and Kristi on today's PEP Talk.
Jeremy Marshall worked in banking, his last job was CEO of C Hoare & Co, the UK's oldest private bank. Six years ago he was diagnosed with incurable cancer and has been in treatment since. He is an evangelist and writer. He is also involved in A Passion For Life encouraging local church evangelism.
You can find Jeremy's books, Beyond the Big C and Hope in the Face of Suffering at 10ofThose.com - search for Jeremy Marshall.
Support the show (https://www.solas-cpc.org/podcast-book-offer/)Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:09
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Andy Bannister and I'm joined as ever by my wonderful co-host all the way from the other end of the country, Christy Mayer. Christy, how are you doing today? Hey, Andy. Oh, what an introduction, my thanks. I'm doing very well. A little bit chilly though. We're always talking about the weather, aren't we? But I'm quite cold. How about you?
00:00:31
Speaker
Yes, not too bad. I have realised you are on the same thought I'd had, that we always start the show by talking about the weather, which is a very British kind of thing to do. So rather than talking about the weather, let's talk about the amazing guest that we have this week. Christy, who have we got with us this week? We have Jeremy Marshall. Jeremy, welcome. We're so pleased that you can join us today. Oh, thanks. Thanks for having me, both of you.
00:00:52
Speaker
Well, Jeremy, you wear kind of many, many, many hats. But as we were discussing your potted bio before the show, I think the one we came up with I really like is that you were the CEO of a bank, you were a banker, but you're now as soon as saved by grace. And evangelist, apologist, writer, but also quite the personal.
00:01:13
Speaker
story,
Cancer Journey and Faith Impact
00:01:14
Speaker
actually. But the book of yours that I really found really impactful is your book Beyond the Big C, talking about your journey with cancer. Tell us the story behind that book. What happened? Yeah, so I was chief executive of a family owned private bank in the city called Seahore & Co. And then one day, eight years ago, I found I had cancer. I went through treatment and then six years ago, the cancer came back.
00:01:41
Speaker
And I was told, yeah, you've got 18 months to live. So that's a real shock. I had to stop work. My whole life was changed in basically a few hours at the Royal Marston. But what's been amazing, Andy and Christie, since that is how God has used that for His glory. Now, at the same time, it's been very hard. I would much rather not have cancer. The impact it has based physically on you and emotionally on your loved ones is enormous and I'm not cured.
00:02:10
Speaker
I'm like a walking one-man medical disaster zone. I've had 30 chemos, 12 operations. I've had heart issues. I've lost a sight in both eyes, or I got it back in one eye. But what's amazing is, in the words of the book by Paul David Tripp, that we're instruments in the redeemer's hands. So God has used my illness to open up amazing evangelistic opportunities. And it's nothing to do with me. It's him, him using me.
00:02:40
Speaker
Jeremy, that's brother. Thank you for sharing that with us. I can't even imagine what it'd be like to to endure that and to have such a diagnosis. May I ask,
Scripture's Role in Coping with Illness
00:02:55
Speaker
how have you been, I guess, just leaning upon the Lord's loving kindness? How have you been processing this for yourself?
00:03:03
Speaker
You know, it's a huge shock, Christie, when you first get told that. I would say, you know, over time, to some extent, you get used to it, right? I compare it in my book to being on a train line, a comfortable train line where you think the next stop is retirement, and suddenly there's a kind of jolt and you're shifted onto a different line, and the next stop is death. So that takes time to get used to. The single thing that's kept me going the most, I would say, has been in the Word of God.
00:03:33
Speaker
I found the Bible just like a medicine chest, basically, and boy, do I need medicine, do I need treatment. And I've just found so many parts of God's Word came to life. I've been a Christian since I was a teenager. I grew up in a very, very strong Christian home. My father was an amazing, rather eccentric character. He used to take us Bible smuggling every summer behind the Iron Curtain. So that was my childhood and I was kind of steeped in the Bible.
00:04:01
Speaker
Since I've been so ill, it's really come to life. If I think of just one Bible passage that speaks very powerfully to me, for example, Jesus in the storm, Jesus in the storm, because sometimes it appears that the Lord is asleep.
00:04:16
Speaker
Sometimes it appears to me that the Lord is asleep. Lord, how can you just pile on suffering on top of suffering when I've got so many things already and you give me something else? But of course, the Lord is not asleep, is he? No, he may appear to be, but he's not. He's very much awake and very much in control of everything. So just that small Bible passage, there are many others, speaks to me powerfully.
Connecting Through Shared Suffering
00:04:41
Speaker
And the darker the darker things are, the more the light pours out of God's Word.
00:04:47
Speaker
Now, I imagine that what you've lived through now, in fact, still living through Jeremy, that gives you quite a powerful point of connection.
00:04:58
Speaker
than with people who are themselves kind of sort of suffering, whether with cancer or other ways. How are some of the ways that you've found that you've been able to use, you know, your own story on your own journey than in showing love of Christ with others? Because I think sometimes, you know, for those of us who are, you know, praise the Lord in full health, we can sometimes, I always feel, you know, afraid of sharing our faith with those who are really suffering.
Engaging Others in Faith Conversations
00:05:20
Speaker
So we don't think we have that all sensitive connection. You've got that. How have you used that in terms of sharing hope with others?
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah, one specific thing, but I won't speak so much about this because maybe that's less relevant. But anyway, it's just giving me the opportunity to do talks, right? In the pandemic, I did about 110 Zoom calls where I could just talk about living with cancer and talk about hope in the face of death. But more personally, and maybe that's more relevant to people listening to your podcast. It's a fantastic door opener.
00:05:55
Speaker
because a lot of people who are struggling in one way or another suffering think that Christians are looking down on them and think that Christians have got it all under control and we're fine. And obviously in my case, that's hardly the case. So it makes you vulnerable and it makes you on the same level as other people. So our suffering is used by God as a door opener or a bridge builder with people where if we were, everything was great and yeah, we're kind of,
00:06:26
Speaker
going from success to success wouldn't be the case. So how to talk to people who are coping with cancer. I think one thing is to let our friend drive the car. What I mean by that is if our friend, I'm thinking especially of a non-Christian friend here,
00:06:45
Speaker
would like to invite us into their car or into their boat maybe in the context of the storm. That's really kind of them. What we shouldn't do is try and grab the tiller or the steering wheel and I think that's a danger. Let them drive things. Let them determine how much or how little they want to talk about things.
00:07:05
Speaker
And how do we do that? I think we ask them questions. That would be my experience. So a typical question I would ask somebody is, would you mind if I told you my story? I'm thinking of maybe another person with cancer here, and I've been through this many times. And what you do is you then, you're building a bridge. You're building a bridge. You tell your cancer story, they tell their cancer story, or their heart attack story, or whatever it is, and you establish a human connection there, right? That's the first thing.
00:07:34
Speaker
The second thing then would be to be smart at once we built that bridge of friendship and sympathy and empathy and being kind and compassionate to that person, just to not drive too heavy traffic across the bridge and crush it, right? There's no point in building a bridge of friendship if we didn't try and build a tank across it.
00:07:54
Speaker
So how do we do that? The same thing. We ask them questions. We ask them questions. Now, it would be a rather strange question if I asked you, how heavy a truck can I drive across this bridge? But effectively, and a very obvious question would be, do you mind if I pray for you? That's a great question with someone who's suffering. Do you mind if I pray for you? And when you're in a desperate situation, what I find is that
00:08:21
Speaker
Nobody so far, of all the many people I've asked that have said no, because what have you got to lose, right? If you're staring death in the face, if there's no God, right? Just wasting your breath.
00:08:33
Speaker
Then another question you might ask someone is, would you mind if I read a psalm? I find the psalms great door openers because they're so written often in distress and pain. And we can also speak personally about what the psalm means to me. So the easiest psalm to start with is Psalm 23, right? Because that's probably the most common known. If people have any kind of folk memory of the Bible, the Lord's my shepherd.
00:09:02
Speaker
Then when we read that Psalm together, there are two amazing verses I might just comment on. Yes, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for you with me. So that's what I might say to the person if they allow. I might say, look, that's my experience. I'm walking through the valley of the shadow of death as a you. And what helps me is the presence of Jesus Christ. Then if they wanted to go further, I might say,
00:09:28
Speaker
You know, what's the last verse? Surely goodness and mercy should follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. And I would say that's also my experience, that I'm being followed by goodness and mercy, and I've got Jesus Christ walking with me. And then stop, right? The danger is, I think we overdo it. We're trying to grab the steering wheel or grab the tiller. So we must be kind and compassionate.
00:09:55
Speaker
to people who are suffering and allow them to determine how much Christian traffic we want to drive across the bridge.
Spiritual Openness During COVID-19
00:10:03
Speaker
Thank you so much. There's just such wisdom there and just a whole just a wealth of your your love for the Lord coming through there, Jeremy. Thank you so much. How have you found sharing this with people who aren't suffering? So I was just thinking about when you receive the diagnosis, how did
00:10:24
Speaker
How did those you were working with at the bank respond and have you had any ongoing conversations with them as well? Yeah, lots of my non-Christian friends have been really kind and sympathetic. In the book, I make a joke about one of them who is a kind of, you know, a longtime friend of mine who's a convinced atheist. He said,
00:10:44
Speaker
When I told him a few weeks later, he told me I gave God a surprise this morning. I went into a church and said a prayer for you. I thought I was really touched by that. I was really touched. So, yeah, my friends from work, they're intrigued, I think, and especially in the pandemic, even more so, they're intrigued because now this kind of thing that was very specific to me living under the fear of death is now with everybody. I like to joke.
00:11:14
Speaker
that, you know, welcome to my world is what I say in a cheery way, because when I had, I mean, chemotherapy, I had no immune systems. Every time I was on the train, and somebody coughed or sneezed pre the pandemic, I felt afraid. And now, behold, we all feel like that, right? So I find people are very happy to see me. I just like to have a coffee. This is pre COVID, right? I just like to have a coffee with them. How are you doing?
00:11:41
Speaker
And again, the same thing, just ask a few questions. My favorite question, Christie, is that they say, how are you doing? And I say, you know, describe my treatment and so on. And I say, but my faith really helps me. How about you? Do you have any particular beliefs? And then shut up. Don't argue with them. Don't contradict them. If people say, I like to think we're all on a journey or climbing the same mountain.
00:12:09
Speaker
Don't say, that's wrong. Jesus said, I'm the way, the truth and the life. You've just blown up your bridge, right? That doesn't help anybody. Say, oh really? Yeah. Tell me about your journey. Which path do you think you're on? Then my second question to people is,
00:12:24
Speaker
I might describe, for example, what I've just said about how helpful I've found a medicine in the Bible. How about you? Did you ever look at the Bible? Most people never looked at it at all. These are supposedly highly educated people in the city. They never looked at the Bible. They have no information about the Bible. They wouldn't know the first thing about the Bible.
00:12:45
Speaker
And then I say, would you like to have a chat with me about the Bible? And I've got these notes, you know, the word one-to-one that I find amazing. And yeah, of course, not everybody says yes, but I've never had what I probably asked 100 people to do it. And I've never had one person get angry with me. Some people just laugh. They say, Jeremy, you're not getting me that easily, which I say, OK, fair enough.
00:13:10
Speaker
But a surprisingly large number of people, a surprisingly large number of people say, yeah, I wouldn't mind that. And what I find there is also that the people who agree are typically the people I don't think would do it. And why would they, why do they agree? And my experience, I can give you examples of this, if you like, is because God's been at work in their life already. And I didn't know that.
00:13:34
Speaker
Well, since you've teased us with that, Jeremy, give us an example, because I think people listening to the show always love some of the stories that come through, I guess. Give me an example of how that played out, perhaps. So I had a friend who came to faith from a particular background, and then he asked me questions because of his background. And I thought, oh, I don't really know the answer to that. So I went to a friend, a Christian friend, who comes from that background. And I didn't give the person's name. I just said, you know, here's a couple of questions.
00:14:04
Speaker
and from a business friend of mine. And after a bit, this Christian business friend of mine said, it's not so and so you're talking about, is it? I said, yeah, that's exactly who it is. How did you know that? He said, well, that's really strange. When people say that, by the way, I've learned that that means the Holy Spirit's at work. He said, that's really strange because about eight years ago, we had dinner and we had a really deep conversation about the Christian faith and I haven't seen him since.
00:14:32
Speaker
So I went back to my friend who I've been reading the Bible with. I said, you know, if you don't mind me, I asked so and so. He said, oh, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, that set me thinking, right? How was I possibly supposed to know that? Well, let me give you another example. A friend of mine who's a Christian, a guy who got me going, actually, he was chairman of an insurance company. He felt God was directing him to go and talk to someone whose wife had recently died. And he drove like 50, 100 miles to see this guy who's a friend of his.
00:15:01
Speaker
And he said, same thing, would you like to have a chat with me about the Bible? And the guy said, Oh, yes, I'd love that. My friend was taken aback as we can be right as Christians. And years later, when this guy became a Christian, his friend explained, you know, something strange happened, right? Same expression. My daughter was in an Olympic
00:15:21
Speaker
swim training thing in America when her mother died and her roommate was a Christian and her roommate just read a few psalms to her and the daughter had said to the father, oh dad, you should look at the Bible. I found it so helpful, right? So when my friend came, God had already been at work
00:15:39
Speaker
So a fundamental principle, Andy and Christie, I believe, is that God is at work in far, far more people than we know. But our lack of faith stops us going further. What we must do is we must gently try the door of the life of people with a couple of questions. And we will find that doors that appear closed are actually opened from the inside by the Lord, who's been at work.
00:16:05
Speaker
I can tell you many more stories. I'll tell you another friend of mine who I started with, and then he stopped for about two years. And then he started again about 18 months ago. And he said to me two things. He said, Jeremy, I appreciated you taking the interest in me because every few months I said, do you want to start again? And he said, I'm too busy.
00:16:25
Speaker
And the other thing is something strange happened, the same expression, right? He had a plumber into his house to redo his bath. How many Christian plumbers are there? And this guy, they got chatting, and my friend said, I used to read the Bible, and the plumber said, you should start that again. It's a really good thing to do, right? That's nothing to do with me. That's God. That's the supernatural intervention of God.
00:16:48
Speaker
So we are but instruments in the redeemer's hands, but one thing we must do, I believe, is gently try the door of our friend's lives, right? Just gently, not hammer it down with a sledgehammer, just gently try it. And we will often find that God has been at work there, but we won't find that until we try the door. And how do we try
Promoting Evangelism through Church Initiatives
00:17:08
Speaker
the door? We ask people questions.
00:17:11
Speaker
Well, your passion for the Lord and for others is just contagious, Jeremy, completely contagious. And I think that takes us to the Passion for Life initiative that you're part of. Can you tell us a little bit about that? What is it? What does it do? How you evolve?
00:17:28
Speaker
Thanks, Christy. So our passion for life was around about 10 years ago. Some of your listeners may remember it. It's a kind of group of churches encouraging and helping each other in evangelism. But it basically fell into a bayon. Nothing happened for about the last six, seven years. But a group of us, myself and a guy called Nick McQuaker,
00:17:49
Speaker
who's a FIC pastor in Hayward Teeth and other people. We've been working to revive this and for the last 18 months we've been planning and investing and we just relaunched it again a couple of months ago. If you go to the website, see a ton of stuff there. And what's it about?
00:18:08
Speaker
It's about encouraging and supporting and equipping local churches and individual Christians in evangelism. So if you go to the website already, you'll see there's a lot of videos and ideas and we've got more. We've got 500 churches nearly signed up for this and we'd like a lot more. We've also got in the different parts of the UK and also the Republic of Ireland steering groups in Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic.
00:18:36
Speaker
And the goal is not to tell people what to do, it's to encourage people because people are discouraged. And a lot of churches and a lot of individual Christians have just stopped. So we know we should dare our faith, but we don't know how. So we want to encourage in a bottom-up grassroots way. This is not about, you know, the days of Billy Graham had gone, right? This is not a top-down thing. It's about local churches thinking, oh yeah, this is good and that's good and I'll use
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:19:05
Speaker
that.
00:19:05
Speaker
And we're also trying to encourage churches across the UK and the Republic of Ireland to join together in a mission in the run-up to Easter 2022. When we say a mission, again, we don't mean top-down big-name speakers, we mean local churches doing local evangelism and encouraging each other in that. And that's been one of the things I've experienced, by the way, in lockdown,
00:19:29
Speaker
that a lot of churches have found a real massive opportunity. You know, I've spoken in churches, I don't want to insult anyone, where I never heard of the church, I've never heard of the place. I had to look it up on Google. Where is this place, right? And you've got these often relatively small churches and they've been so encouraged by people taking an interest and people's openness to talk about
00:19:52
Speaker
the things of eternity in the lives of COVID. So yeah, if you're interested in finding out more or interested in your church getting involved, please look at the website. It's a passionforlife.org.
00:20:04
Speaker
Well, that's fantastic. And what we'll do is we'll put a link in the show notes to where people can find out more, which actually is a natural place to bring things to an end because we've hit the 20 minute mark. Jeremy, we're hugely appreciative for so much of what you've shared, both your personal story, but also I think the big takeaway for me from our conversation, just that sense of listening to the Lord, seeing where he's already at work in the lives of those around us and just praying that we'd have the opportunity to come alongside what God is already doing.
00:20:31
Speaker
Because I think sometimes, right, the pressure and evangelism is we think we have to do all the work and all the efforts and actually realizing that actually God is out there already ahead of us. God is the evangelist. We've got the humble instruments in his hands, but we do have a role to play, right? And also if we honor God with that tiny trembling first step, which was me, right? Nervous, didn't know how to do it. God will honor that. God will honor that. God honors our weakness, our feebleness, our illness, all of our incapacity to do things.
00:21:02
Speaker
Brilliant. Well, Jeremy, thank you again. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on pep talk. And so from all of us here to you at home, goodbye for now. And Christy and I will be back with a new guest in two weeks time. Thanks for listening to pep talk as ever. Bye for now.