Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Problem #8: Doing It Right
163 Plays24 days ago
This week, Kristian and Tracy go on an in depth exploration of what compels us to create the things we do, why we share them, and how and why we keep going when things get difficult. For many, these are very personal questions. We talk about the sense of accomplishment, the compulsion to inspire others, craftsmanship, our vulnerability as creators, and how we handle failure when it inevitably crops up (including a discussion about the concept of "failing faster")! As our beloved Mister Rogers said, "You've got to do it!"
Join our discord!: https://discord.gg/Bc9dvuzZYJ
The Han Cluster® Role Playing Game Website: https://hancluster.com
Immaterial Plane: https://immaterialplane.com/
Mister Rogers - "You've Got to Do it" - https://www.misterrogers.org/videos/youve-got-to-do-it/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Designing Problems RPG Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this sentimental hogwash. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number eight, doing it right.
The Original Idea and Purpose
00:00:44
Speaker
So part of this the pitch of this podcast was what the original idea that you pitched to me was RPG design you know doing it the wrong way. yeah Yeah, I forget what it was, how to do it wrong. How to do it wrong, right? Yeah.
00:00:59
Speaker
And some of that is rooted also really in why we're doing this to begin with. Yes. That's the core of it, I think. The core of this episode. I agree. What we used to call on Savage & Eludes a therapy episode, I think. Yes. Right. Because it's a fascinating question.
Why Share Creations Without Financial Gain?
00:01:17
Speaker
Why do we do this? Why do we share it?
00:01:20
Speaker
Yeah. Why do we keep persistent at it? Or even even why do we choose to create for the purpose of sharing it with others, even if it's not a business, even if it's not like we're getting money out of this or trying to do something. right It's what is compelling us to create these things and then to the point, like to to to a polished enough point where we can share them with others as best we can.
00:01:45
Speaker
Yeah. and And the thing is like, when when we start with some of these creations, they're usually kind of experiments, right? They're just things we're playing with, we're tinkering. It could be like a homebrew thing. It could be some fun mechanic that we came up with, some concepts, some idea that we're just like, oh yeah, you know, I want to see how this works. And you you know kind of pull some pieces together.
00:02:05
Speaker
And then you know maybe maybe it's a need. Maybe you're you're trying to create something that there was a gap for, you know and and you're trying to fill in that gap. um you know ah you know sort of Again, designing solutions to problems. But at some point, I
Inspiration from Mr. Rogers' Songs
00:02:19
Speaker
think you know it kind of snowballs. right It gets to a point where you're like, I think there's something here. this is This is pretty good. I think it's good.
00:02:26
Speaker
Yeah. Let me, let me, let me see if it's good, you know? and And so, you know, you start sharing it out, you know, you, you share it with your friends, you share it with your home group, whatever it might be, or even online. And then, you know, eventually you get to a point, like, you know, you, you mentioned when the Hong cluster, you know, as Daryl and Shane that were, you know, both at different times, like, yeah, it's just, why don't you make this? Right? Yeah. This is, this is, this is going to happen. Yeah. And I, so I think,
00:02:57
Speaker
To begin with, I kind of want to explain the title of the episode. sure I, like many, many, many, many other people, ah have been heavily influenced by Mr. Rogers when I was growing up.
00:03:16
Speaker
Were you? Yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's that's an impression that is lasting. It is. It absolutely is. And there are two specific songs that he sung that still creep up into my head every now and then, especially when I'm trying to work on something creative.
00:03:36
Speaker
and doing something that's very difficult, right? yeah And one of them is, I like to take my time. you know I like to take my time to do it right. um And the other is, you've got to do it. you know Do it, do it, do it. And when you're through, you'll know who did it, because you did
Persistence in Content Creation
00:03:52
Speaker
it. You did it, you did it. These are very, I'm getting chills just quoting them, because they're so inspirational to me. They're so meaningful yeah to me.
00:04:04
Speaker
And I think of them often when I'm stuck, when I'm struggling, when I'm really trying to get something right, you know, and yeah and make it work. That it's it's a reminder how hard this is. And it's a reminder that it's worth doing. Right. Right.
00:04:27
Speaker
And that's, I think, partly what this episode is about, is to explore why we do it, why we share it, and how we can keep persistent about keeping going when things get tough. Yeah. and And some of those things can be, you know, for different reasons.
00:04:46
Speaker
And of course, how you maintain your perseverance you know depends on what the core reason is. right um you know If it's for money, then maybe your sense of perseverance might be coming. Well, first of all, you're in the wrong business.
00:05:00
Speaker
but
00:05:02
Speaker
But we all know that.
Leaving a Mark and Persevering
00:05:04
Speaker
But, you know, if it's for, you know, you want to make your mark, you want to leave an impression, you know, then that's something, you know, every now and then you might need to kind of come back to and just kind of meditate on, right? This is, no, I want to i want to leave something with the world, with people, with friends, with, you know, ah whomever, you know, who who who whoever's live lives I can touch.
00:05:29
Speaker
right and that's And that's a thing. um And sometimes it's just, i it like there's a craftsmanship to it, right? Sometimes, like for me, like a lot of the stuff that i I create, it's because I have an idea, I think it's a good idea, and I know that I can put it into a really nice package yeah and put and and put it out there for others to enjoy.
00:05:53
Speaker
and And, you know, i've I've seen a lot of stuff that goes out there on the, you know, especially by small publishers or whomever. And and I always think, like, I could do that. yeah Like, I could definitely do that. In fact, I thinking i think I could do it better, you know. yeah oh And then there's stuff I look at, like, I want to do it that good. yeah So there's that too. Yeah, I think and what I've i've i mentioned before, you know, I'm a theater major from way back and One of the analogies that I make is that Shakespeare we hardly ever created anything new. The stories that he told were stories from way back. right He just did them better than anybody else did. There's something to be said for that. There's that craftsmanship that comes with
00:06:40
Speaker
you know I don't want to just create this thing. I want to create a very, very good package and to to do this in a way that it's the definitive of this thing. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the definitive you know right version of that thing, but that's what I'm going into trying to do. you know yeah like If I'm going to do Hang cluster,
00:07:06
Speaker
I'm going to do Han cluster. but i'm not going to I'm not going to throw it out there and hope if something sticks. I'm not going to like, sort of like, well, I'll give you a rough draft. And if you give me feedback, maybe I'll continue to work on it. You know, there's a lot of people do that kind of thing. yeah They'll say, here's a story. If you like it, maybe I'll keep writing this story. If you don't, yeah, whatever. I just sort of put my half heart into this
Reception vs. Quality of Work
00:07:31
Speaker
anyway. So who cares, right? right yeah That is not me.
00:07:35
Speaker
Thanks to Mr. Rogers, maybe, and I can't tell you what's nurture in nature and what influenced me and just what speaks to me, but I can say that if I'm going to do something, if I'm going to create a story or create an RPG or whatever, I'm going to finish it as best I can yeah at the at the time of my ability, right? And then I will put it out there.
00:08:00
Speaker
And for better or worse, even if it sucks, I mean, even if if people don't respond to it or don't like it, I know that I did the very best that I could at that time. And I'll have no regrets about it.
00:08:15
Speaker
try for your own sanity, do not correlate the response with the value and the quality of the work you put into it. Because it's very easy yeah to say like, I put everything into this. I gave it my all, this is as good as I can do and it bombed, right? And then in that could, I mean, you want to talk about soul crushing, you know, that it could easily turn into that. So it's important to keep in mind that What's good isn't necessarily for everyone. yeah right So those are two separate things. They are. and And I've done this enough for various writings that I've done and put out there into the public. is I realize now and and oh over time I've learned because I've been doing this for many, many years.
00:09:05
Speaker
that if I'm happy with it, if I don't release it until I'm happy with it, and and that doesn't mean perfect. It doesn't need to be perfect. It needs it needs to be polished. right It needs to be thought through. it needs to be It needs to have all those things that you care
Handling Criticism and Confidence
00:09:22
Speaker
about. If if you're happy with it,
00:09:25
Speaker
then you put it out there, you have a certain amount of armor that's built in yeah for people who don't like it. right That armor is there because I'm like, well,
00:09:38
Speaker
You know, I thought about that and they're and and that's that's not the direction I chose to go, yeah you know, because i because i I thought about it, you know, or, i or you know, whatever. I've i've i've really circled this oh yeah from as many angles as I can. Hong Kong, this is the same way, you know, I've thought about more things than you can imagine. And when people come back and if they have thoughts on it, I'll usually have already gone through that and hashed through it and I can feel good knowing that I did.
00:10:08
Speaker
and that that armor is there because what they say is is either untrue or has nothing to do with what I actually created. right Or may be true, but I know it's there. I know it's a problem. I already already know it's there.
00:10:24
Speaker
right yeah i So I had that with, um maybe maybe not to that degree, but like with with my version of Artificer in Savage Eberron, my goal with that was to make it very much like how the original 3.5 Artificer was. They didn't have anything offensive, they didn't have like damage dealing or anything like that. um Their whole thing was very support driven, right? They were like basically boosting everyone else or their things rather, which then boosted them. Creating these temporary magic items now.
00:11:01
Speaker
I had a lot of people say, well, why don't you just use the tinkerer or the fantasy companion? Like, because that's not the goal and that's there. That's been done. If you want to use that, go use it. That's great. That's, that's your Eberron. Cool. I wanted this and this didn't exist. And so I've, I've gone through, you know, I've done so many iterations of Artificers. You don't even know. You have no idea. No idea. This is where I landed for these reasons. And it's
Combining Ideas for New Creations
00:11:31
Speaker
hard. And don't you feel that that gives you a little bit of protection, a shielding from that criticism? Yes. It takes a while to build that up, I would say. Because there's times, especially when you're first starting off. Way back when, when I was just doing stuff on the forums and things like that, I was constantly questioning my decisions because there were people who
00:11:49
Speaker
you know, been playing this game more than I have. And I was like, Oh yeah, you know, I guess that makes sense. And and and ah often they were right. Like there were things I just didn't even consider cause I just didn't have enough experience. Um, but now in this stage, I think, you know, it's like, I have given, like, like we said, I've given this enough thought I've gone round and round and round. I've experimented in my head and in paper and everything. This is where I really needed it to be, you know, and, and, and, and um,
00:12:16
Speaker
you know And along with that too, I think, is sometimes you know we talk about reasons why we create. Part of it is is that experimenting thing, seeing some existing work or like you know different pieces from different places and saying, oh, i I really like that idea. And I like this idea over here. And I want to kind of couple that to make this third idea. And it's kind of like you're kit bashing a little bit, your yeah you're you're piecing together these inspirations from other sources from people who know a lot more than you and yourre and your you're able to analyze and pick apart those pieces and put something else together with them. And I think there's that for me is there's a lot of inspiration there and why I create some some of the things I do.
00:12:59
Speaker
yeah so Yeah. To put some structure to this, yes well let's review a little bit a couple of the things we've already sort of touched on about why why we do this. right so There's the pure compulsion to create. like It's just there. it's It's coming from inside us somewhere. right For me, that's there. I imagine for most of us,
00:13:22
Speaker
who do this, that's there. For you, it's there, right? Yeah. I mean, I think RPGs inherently are that, right? As a GM or a player, you're cre you're there you're there to create. And as far as creating like you know material new material, that's just what you've been doing, but now you're sort of doing it in a very formalized way. Yeah, codifying codifying it, right.
00:13:45
Speaker
The other thing we already mentioned, to experiment. yes but to To sort of let the creative juices flow and try different things that may or may not work. There's there's a compulsion to do that. There's ah there's a you know there's something about that that that inspires people to do things. yeah right And then there's the fill a gap thing, which we also mentioned. like It doesn't already exist, or at least I haven't seen it. yeah So I kind of want to make this thing exist.
00:14:12
Speaker
right You know, like there isn't a there isn't a savage cyberpunk but or shadow run type of thing going on. So Manuel decides to make sprawl runners, right? He he put it that way in the discord service. Like it was was out of spite because yeah no one else was doing it.
00:14:33
Speaker
right yeah There's a joke, but but that's partly the fill a gap thing. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, that's how Artificer's Codex was born because it was way before the fantasy companion or even Savage Pathfinder existed. It was, Suede had just come out and there were no um permanent magic item creation rules. And so I'm like, I just looked at the existing Artificer and then I recalled some stuff from the old fantasy toolkits and and the old fantasy companion.
00:14:59
Speaker
And I was like, there's some parallelisms here going on and we can, you know, I could probably put something together with this to make new rules for, you know, and and I knew that Peg was probably gonna come up with something better eventually and they did. yeah well and But the intent of that of that project was to just fill the gap because people needed something and this was previously used or, you know, portions of it were previously used and they worked, they worked fine. People loved it, so.
00:15:27
Speaker
Yeah. And then there's that sense of accomplishment. yes This is a big thing for me too. yeah If I finish something, if I put my all into it and I circled it all around from different angles and I've done all the things that we talked about and I feel like, okay, this is done. I've accomplished this. yeah And then I put it out there and then I can i can look at it again later and go, you know,
00:15:51
Speaker
tracy Tracy knew what she was doing back then. This is good. yeah This is exactly how I would do it. What was your first yeah first thing that you you saw the the end result and had that feeling? um probably Probably stories that I've written before. yeah But the first RPG thing that I felt that way about probably was Violet Evans. nice And it still remains, at least the way I run it, I run it a little differently than it's published. And there's reasons why that that's there's difference there. But um it's still one of the most popular con adventures that I've run. So I look at it, I read it, I cry every time at the end. oh that's and And I'm like, yeah, this is really good.
00:16:35
Speaker
Yeah. So speaking to that desire to, or not desire, the, um, the need to persevere. Do do you use that as your, as one of your inspirations? Like you look back at that and like, no, I can do this. I'm good at this. It's a double edged sword because I can look back at at previous things I've done and ah most of the things that I've, that I've actually gotten published. I look back and I go, yeah, this is, this is good. This is really good. Unless, unless I was sort of,
00:17:05
Speaker
compelled to do it a different way than i would have done it and then sometimes i'm like yeah man it's all right but um but yeah that's an inspiration but it's also uh a little bit of uh daunting because you're sitting there going Man, Tracy two years ago really knew what she was doing. I wonder if I can do that. Can lightning strike twice? right im like is am i still Am I that person? Was that me? you know like really i Really? I really look at that and go, wow. that's
00:17:37
Speaker
That's something. I don't know if I could do that. Don't walk or can I, can I do this again? Yeah, exactly. But, but, but when I finished something and and I'm reading through, I'm doing fine edits on cluster right now and I'm looking, I'm getting caught up in like changing little stupid things that aren't really heavy content related, but little, you know, fine tuning,
00:18:02
Speaker
layout things or whatever I'm doing and I get caught up reading the end of the plot point campaign and I'm just bawling my eyes out. well And I'm like, and it's a double-edged sword because at one point I'm like, wow, I love this. This is exactly what I want this to be. yeah right
Inspiring Others Through Work
00:18:19
Speaker
But then I also think, is it what anybody else wants? Is it just me?
00:18:26
Speaker
You know, is, is this going to fall flat, but doesn't have to be, does it have to be so much what anybody else wants? Yeah. In your eyes, do you, do you feel like it has to be something that other people want or cause you've, you've mentioned like you want this out there because you want it out there. I have and I do, but, and this gets into the, the, the personal therapy part of this podcast, right? Which is, uh,
00:18:51
Speaker
I've, we all have been touched by something yeah that has moved us in different ways. Like whether it's a movie, whether it's a piece of music, whether it's a book, whether it's a RPG game or or a session or campaign or whatever, we've all had these, most of us have had these moments where we're just in awe of what has been created for us to enjoy.
00:19:16
Speaker
you know And that that's that that covers for me, I'm very passionate about this stuff and everything from from what Mr. Rogers represents to me to what Stranger Things did to me at its at its apexes and there were many.
00:19:33
Speaker
to what you know Requiem for a Dream does for me or what Riverdance does for me. or all these there's I can go on and on about these moments or moments of monologue that an actor like an actor's performance or or just like, wow, how did that get done? How did how did this come together? like This is beautiful.
00:19:57
Speaker
And and ah because I'm so inspired by that, because I'm so impassioned by it, I want to do that for somebody else. yeah yeah I want to be that for somebody else. To manifest that, yeah. Yes, I do. And if it only happens to a few people, that's great. But the more I can get, the better.
00:20:19
Speaker
You know, and and and that I think it it sort of skips into the I want to be recognized a little bit, which I think is there's there's nothing wrong with that.
00:20:32
Speaker
There's nothing wrong with wanting to be recognized for the work you've put in. sure you know um And I do a little bit. But but more than that, I just want to and i want to i want to bring some of that inspiration to other people. that that That all these writers and all these actors and all these directors and and these brilliant things that have been created over human history yeah that have touched me so deeply, I want to be a part of that. right That's one of the things that really motivates me. And whatever whatever way we can, right? Yeah. Yeah. In whatever way I can. And I know I've done it. I've already done it for a few people. And part of the few, I think, is because my so my my outlook is so
00:21:20
Speaker
unique, yeah oh yeah that it's not for everybody, as we've talked about. yeah right And if HongCluster can reach that few people, it's a success. If I can reach a lot of people,
00:21:34
Speaker
then that's that's really a massive success. Yeah. If if you can reach a lot of people, now it's a sustainable success. Yes. Right? Like now I can keep doing this and and and do more of it. and and And I know it's going to go somewhere. I mean, not to say that it doesn't go anywhere, because like you said, if you have it out there, you have it out there, you've made your mark, yeah left you've left your mark. you know But there's also validation. Sure. you know Yeah, absolutely. and And there's nothing wrong with that.
00:22:02
Speaker
And I know that everyone out there, every single person who is creating things and and putting their soul into something or making themselves vulnerable because they're trying to create something new goes through this to a certain degree. Yeah. Is anybody going to like it? Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with feeling that way.
00:22:23
Speaker
And, you know, like we're doing campaign cardomancy and it's not a campaign and setting or an adventure or anything to that. It's a utility really. e um Something that you use in your existing games, you know, either for personal use or if you're a GM, you're, you're you know, trying to create things with inspiration from it. um You know, but yeah, it's like, you know, Jen and I are like, we we know this is cool. We like this. We hope, you know, that people are going to find it useful and inspirational.
00:22:52
Speaker
and so on. you know um But that's that's really all we can do right now is just hope. And just make it as good as we can, yeah you know which we think we're doing. So yeah, that's that I think touches on why we share the things. We can create the things, but then there's that compulsion to share those things with other people. And what I've just talked about is is my compulsion. It's one of the reasons that I work so hard.
00:23:20
Speaker
is is Is there anything different for you that I haven't mentioned on that front? no ah Yeah, no, for me, it's it like I mentioned, the craftsmanship um yep is a huge part of it. um So, you know, it's it's interesting because like, you know, I tinkered with Savage Everon as like a Google doc that was free for like, I don't know, way too long, 10 years, right? Yeah, sure.
00:23:46
Speaker
And you know, and it got to the point where I'm like, I can keep doing this for eternity and that's cool. I know people find it valuable. I see people referring to it all the time. You know, people tell me that it's great, you know, they like it. And then I got to a point where I'm like,
00:24:00
Speaker
I wanna put this out as a book. like ah you know i want Even if it's just a PDF that's that's finished and polished and it looks good. Finished from beginning to end product. right and this is like And then put it to rest. right I'm not gonna tinker with this endlessly for the rest of my life. yeah This will be the definitive version for now.
00:24:19
Speaker
yeah
00:24:22
Speaker
and you know and and in and And so that's that's what that was about. it was It was, I want this to be as polished as any peg product you could pick up.
00:24:35
Speaker
You know, cause I knew I could do that. um I knew it's possible. It's not it's not unachievable. yeah It's just, you know, we've talked about the style guide. We talked about voice. We've talked about, you know, the format and consistency and all those things. And I knew that that's really what it took. And yeah um and and that and that's what it was. It was something I wanted to be able to say, I can do this and then use that as some inspiration.
00:25:01
Speaker
and validation to pursue other projects. yes you know um you know and then And then some of the smaller products that we've put out, you know Herbal Alchemy and and Artificer's Codex, we're also examples of that. like We think we have a really cool idea here. you know this is This is something that we can put a lot of care into. and In and a small package,
00:25:25
Speaker
and really craft something that's kind of cool and and then put it out there and get some validation for it. you know yeah um So yeah, you know i I don't know that I have the same, I haven't had the same inspirations that you've had in terms of that um emotional storytelling yet. That's not to say that I won't, you know I might, um which I think is,
00:25:51
Speaker
Absolutely amazing, by the way, that you have that and that you're that comes out in your work. I think that is absolutely incredible. um I've seen it. I felt it, you know, playing in in your games.
00:26:03
Speaker
um And I, I hope that, you know, we'll be able to do something like that, you know, someday, you know, whether whether it's through our plot point campaign or a Savage tale or something else altogether. Who knows? Um, but yeah, I think that's something I'd like to be able to accomplish. That'll be, that'll be a future goal, I think. Yeah. So.
00:26:30
Speaker
what What happens when we fail, Christian? Oh, shit. how do you How do you assess failure? How do you decide whether it is a failure? How do you move past failure? you know
Embracing Failure for Improvement
00:26:42
Speaker
is it Is anything a failure?
00:26:45
Speaker
yeah i what are What are your thoughts on that? One of the things I try to prepare myself for, because I i don't know what failure is going to mean just yet. I'm not in that place yet, but what I am trying to keep in mind is that we can only succeed by previously failing. We can only get better if we failed before and learned lessons.
00:27:09
Speaker
yeah So I'm trying to, ah I'm trying to tell myself that if something's not successful or if we screw up, we mess up how we approach something or whatever it might be, then at the very least there's value in it because we've learned something and we can bring that forward with us.
00:27:29
Speaker
I hope it's not something that, you know, ends up tanking like the immaterial plane, you know, something to that degree. Um, I've seen a lot of, you know, earnest people, you know, small publishers trying to do a thing and it ends up, you know, like breaking them, you not them as people, but their, their company. and And that scares me. I don't want to, you know, I'm i'm hoping that'll not happen to us ever. Um, that's why I'm like terrified of crowdfunding because I'm just like, I,
00:27:59
Speaker
I've seen so many times where people, not to, not to... No, no, no, I've seen it all. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, I just don't want to discourage you and like start putting you into a mode of panic. Like, oh shit, what am I doing? I'm already in the mode of panic. It's fine. You're already there. Okay. But yeah, it's, it's scary. It's like, you know, I, I get scared of the idea of like, you know, we, we do this Kickstarter, we get the money, we get into finishing the production of it.
00:28:25
Speaker
and things happen, things go awry, things you won't don't expect can just happen. That's the failure that really scares me, if anything. know i don't I don't mind a product being bad or whatever, or you know not being well received, or you know for whatever reasons, it's it's when there's actual real world consequences that but scare me.
00:28:47
Speaker
But yeah. I want to just a little aside there on that. Like there are, there's levels of risk, right? And when you're going full on into crowdfunding for a physical product that you're, you know, offset printing and getting all kinds of components for that you have to come together, that's high risk. Yes. Especially you haven't done before, you know, or don't know, haven't had experience with it in some way. Low risk is digital only.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yes. Right? Right. Swag. It's very unlikely to to to that you're not going to be able to deliver a digital-only product unless you just haven't written it. you know Which could happen too, but it's still low risk. Well, that's that's another thing. is like like I don't want to do a crowdfunding project unless it's like nearly done or done.
00:29:39
Speaker
And at this point it's like, we just want to get the print orders or whatever it is, you know? Yeah. yeah um But it's legit to to to need to to to ask for the crowdfunding so that you can finish it. Right. So you can say, Oh, I need to get, a I need to get art. far Right. Like it's written. We just need the art. We just need the art and we need you to crowdfund it so that we can afford the art. There's there's nothing wrong with that. There's lots of people who do that and do it successfully. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:30:06
Speaker
I decided not to do that because I'm going high risk. And for me, lowering that risk is getting all that done ahead of time so that I can concentrate on the risk part that is production yes when I get to the crowdfunding and not concentrate on whether I have the art.
00:30:26
Speaker
whether it's all written, whether it's in layout, I don't want that stress on top of trying to deliver this in a physical way to all my backers. So there's levels of risk there. So it doesn't necessarily mean you know you have to go balls to the walls you know all the way in when you're doing crowdfunding.
00:30:48
Speaker
yeah i think and And to finish the answer regarding like what is failure, yeah yeah yeah we so there's there's the... No, no, but it was it was it was important. I wanted to mention the whole like crowdfunding thing because that is, to me, that is significant failure. and that is That is one of the major definitions of failure to me. um But you know if I did something half-hearted, if I just kind of threw it out there and and or just put it into the ... There's a ah little element in the book that I was like, I don't even know how to think about this. I'm just going to throw this in there and then whatever, too bad. If it sucks, it sucks. like that That to me feels a little like failure. you know yeah That's interesting because some people will do that as a form of protection. Yeah.
00:31:32
Speaker
you know, like, ah, I'm just half half doing this, whatever. I'm not going to polish it because that puts too much of me into it and then invest too much of my soul into the product. I see what you mean. Yeah. Like I've gone all in investing my soul into the product. Like it's too late already done. And yeah, you know, but some people will do that as a form of protection. It's like the expression. If you don't, if you're not going to do it right, don't do it at all. Yeah. That's how I feel.
00:32:03
Speaker
you know so yeah So to talk a little bit more about failure, the the the failures that we have art They don't have to be public humiliating failures in order to learn from them. right no and i right like Sometimes they do, I suppose, depending on where you are and how how things are, but a lot of most, I'd say, most I would say failures that we have are so are small.
00:32:33
Speaker
are are are lessons we learn along the way. yes They don't necessarily mean like it's going to be, you know, we have to crowdfund and then absolutely have a completely tanked failure in order to learn anything. That's just not true. No. And I've failed tons. Shane has failed tons. Shane has failed tons publicly. yeah Shane has gone bankrupt a couple of times and had to shelve Pinnacle for a while before he he came back to it.
00:33:04
Speaker
it's He's failed. He knows what it looks like. He's failed in the worst possible way, and that makes him less afraid of it. Right. No, he'll tell you that. you know he'll he'll He'll say it outright. Yeah. I've been down that that hole, and i've been I've clawed my way out of it, and I'm not worried about failure.
00:33:22
Speaker
Yeah. And he's and he's he's taken lessons from those experiences. Yes. Right? Like, you know, you know how to how not to do it wrong. Yeah. And also it's like, I can fail and still be okay. Yes. Yeah. That's part of what failure teaches you too. Right. That I can fail in the worst, most spectacular way. Right. And still be okay. And some people on Kickstarter have done just that. Well, I was going to ask like not not to open a can of worms with this.
00:33:51
Speaker
Cause we have seen spectacular failures and it is not good for the person who failed. And it is not. Right? Like it it, like, especially in the age of the internet where we're travels, and it's rough, right? And whether or not you continue as a RPG game designer, or publisher might even, you know, be affected um because of reputation or whatever it might be.
00:34:17
Speaker
um Now, I think a significant important part of that is how do you handle, how do you respond publicly to your failure? I think that's really important um because I think some people can react very emotionally, and very negatively when they fail. And it's not it doesn't do anything to to maintain trust. you know Right, right. It's it's it's tough. yeah I don't know you know. My goal is to try to
00:34:55
Speaker
you know fail faster is ah is an expression. right yeah And that's a good way to do it. Because if you get it out of the way, if you if you if it you know and and this is part of this is part of the design process. And I think we've talked about this, but maybe not. I've talked about it with some of my friends where it's like,
00:35:15
Speaker
get your Get your setting out there as fast as you can to players. right Play it as soon as possible because that's a form of failing faster. You could spend months and months tinkering and messing around with your adventure or your setting until you get it in front of players. And you'll have the same result as if you spent like two weeks messing around with it and then put it in front of players. You're going to find the same result except that you've wasted months and months um in the first place in the first iteration, right? And you probably know this, like so like in in visual design, whether it's like a website or whatever, for I'll use a website as as an example. sure um We might start with like say a really low-fi prototype that's like literally a sketches, a series of sketches on a piece of paper of different interfaces, right? So, you know, you you literally can put that piece of paper in front of somebody, ask them whatever UI related question of how they would do a thing.
00:36:11
Speaker
They say, Oh, click that button. You put the next sketch in front of them. Okay. Here's what you would see. yeah And then you can immediately say, Oh, okay. Well, the thing I sketched doesn't work. Let me go back, sketch again, come back and do that same test again with somebody else. right and And that's that feeling fast right in there and and yeah iterating. and absolutely is yeah And then you could put all that together into a nice, perfect little package with your user interface, all graphics up, and then realize it's It's not going to work. in it's not going to work Then you've wasted yeah all those resources yeah for the same result. exactly That's what fail faster is about. yeah And i think I think doing that will help because it's less humiliating. It's less ego shattering.
00:36:57
Speaker
um then then hiding, hiding, hiding, and just working on it all by yourself for months and months and months, and then putting it out there and failing the same way that you would if you just put it out there two weeks. Because if you just did it in two weeks, you fail and you go, oh, I learned lots and lots from this and I'm not going to waste my time doing that now. Now I can move on to some other idea or fix it in a better way than I would have ever thought of on my own. Right, exactly. Exactly.
00:37:25
Speaker
yeah So I think that's an important thing to mention as far as failure goes. yeah And I'm sure we'll mention that again, because it's really important. But yeah, so before we before I do, like I've got a little a little summary kind of thing, but anything else that we're missing?
00:37:45
Speaker
No, I think i think also you know there could be failures just in the process like um itself. you know ah Stupid lessons like you know edit your work before you know like get somebody else to edit your work you know before you go into layout because Once you have somebody doing layout and then you start finding all these like issues and so on, then you got to get your layout person. If you're not doing it yourself, you got to get your layout person to make the corrections for you. That costs time and maybe money you know and and so on. and so like
00:38:18
Speaker
So there's, there's things like that, that, you know, pay attention to those things that you can then bring with you to the next project. yeah right And, um, you know, I think, I think those are, again, those small failures that aren't public. They're not glorious. They're not spectacular. yeah They're just those little lessons like, Oh man, no, next time I know, do it this way. Yeah. So I can't do that now. I can't fix it now, but next time, right you know, exactly.
00:38:44
Speaker
But one thing I do want to, it's part of the inspirational part of this episode, at least as what we're trying to do here. like
Craftsmanship and Commitment to Success
00:38:51
Speaker
I'm not sure how this makes everybody feel, right? I think that there's going to be people who are be like, ah, this hurts because it it hits me where I where i live. You know what I mean? But I want to inspire. I really, really do.
00:39:06
Speaker
And one thing I want to say is that all those things that we that we've come to love, that all the things, those movies, those moments in books and all those things have one thing in common. They've all been carefully crafted. yes yeah Like it may not be for everybody, but for the people it is for,
00:39:30
Speaker
It's amazing because because those creators have thought it through. you know Mass Effect, the first game, there was nothing quite like it when it came out. right And they thought it through and it has lasted for decades. It is remarkable. And it's only because the creators believed in what they were doing and did what they thought was right.
00:39:58
Speaker
yeah despite what they thought, ah what what might happen, right? Or what the audience might think or whatever. Like they crafted something that's completed. And there are countless movies and television series out there that we look back on now that were not popular when they came out. But now we're we consider them utter classics. Yes. Because they are so well crafted. Right. The cult classics. Yeah. Right. They're finished. They're thought through. And all almost everything that we care about has has has some element of that. And I would say,
00:40:37
Speaker
try to believe in what you're doing and go all in on it. Because that's the only way it's going to succeed. If if if you're just half hearted about it, it's almost guaranteed not to. Right. Well said. Yeah. All righty. Well, thank you for listening to the Designing Problems podcast. We want this to be more than a podcast. We want it to be a community.
00:41:05
Speaker
So if you'd like to engage directly with us, share your creative triumphs, your roadblocks, or simply interact with a cool group of supportive people, we have our own Discord server. Please come by, join the discussion, and share some inspiration. Until next time, keep designing your problems, because you're bound to solve a few