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Trans and Thriving - The Magic of Trans Joy
18 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of Gender in Focus, Kai and El explore the importance of celebrating trans joy and why it deserves as much attention as the challenges trans and non-binary people face. With Trans Day of Visibility approaching, we’re shifting the focus to gender euphoria, the everyday moments that bring affirmation, and why representation matters.
We share our own experiences of trans and non-binary joy, from feeling seen and validated to the small but meaningful moments that foster confidence and connection. We also discuss the vital role allies play - not just in recognizing trans joy, but in actively uplifting and celebrating it.
Conversations about trans people often focus on hardship, but joy is just as real and just as powerful. If you’re looking for an uplifting discussion on trans visibility, representation, and the importance of celebrating trans and non-binary experiences, this episode is for you!
To download our free Trans Day of Visibility, check it out here
For TransFocus' TDOV Live Sessions - check them out here!
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Transcript
00:00:02
Speaker
This is Gender in Focus. I'm El and each week I sit down with the president of Trans Focus Consulting and all-round gender diversity genius, Kai Scott. I get to ask all the questions you've ever wanted to ask about how to make the workplace and the world a better place for trans and non-binary people.
00:00:20
Speaker
Let's get into it. In this episode, we are talking about trans and non-binary joy and happiness, something that we miss when we talk about all the real and present challenges.
00:00:33
Speaker
But there's a lot of amazing stuff about being trans and non-binary, and we want to explore that in today's episode. So I'm really excited to get into it here with you, El today. So yeah, let's get started.
00:00:47
Speaker
I'm so thrilled about this topic that we're talking about today. And I wanted to start with just asking you, why is it important to center trans joy and not just kind of focus on the struggles and and the challenges around that?
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah. So we want to appreciate and understand and unpack the challenges. And there's an important exercise in doing that. There's a time and place for it.
00:01:12
Speaker
But unfortunately, if we only focus on the struggles, then ourselves and others may misunderstand that we're these multidimensional beings that have ups and downs, just like everybody else.
00:01:26
Speaker
And we can almost be kind of categorized as this other in only having struggle. i once was in a conversation where we're kind of unpacking, you know, some of the kind of really exciting things about being trans. And the person I was talking to who was cisgender was completely befuddled and almost perplexed.
00:01:48
Speaker
Like, where's the trans struggle? Right. and was almost insisting on it. i was like, oh yeah, we also experienced joy and, and, really cool stuff. So it's just maybe not over-indexing on one in a way that ignores or like almost makes invisible the really wonderful things, right?
00:02:07
Speaker
And so doing both and balancing that, I think, is really important. Right.
Daily Joys and Community Connections
00:02:12
Speaker
So what does happiness for people for trans and non-binary people look like in everyday life? If you were, you know, kind of focusing on positives and this person that you were talking to was quite surprised by the fact that there are some positives, what does that look like on an everyday basis?
00:02:31
Speaker
There's so many things that trans people are excited about and create great happiness. I mean, some of it is just shared in common with cisgender folks, right? The everyday things like connection with friends and family and acquaintances and you know going on walks and you know being a part of volunteer community.
00:02:53
Speaker
or perhaps a faith community where there's deep meaning that's generated for folks. ah So those are kind of one category of things. And then there's the kind of trans-specific joy and happiness that as, you know, there's a struggle to figure oneself out and that, you know, there's something off and amiss, and maybe that's a mystery for a long time, maybe even decades.
00:03:16
Speaker
And then coming out of that with, you know, finally crystallizing what it's really about, And that understanding is like really just invigorating because, you know, finally I've come to terms with who one really is.
00:03:32
Speaker
And there's a lot of joy in that, a lot of happiness, a lot of release that you know was kind of pent up in either confusion or realizing something, but being scared to share with others. And so that that joy is very specific to to being trans and having the kind of what is called gender dysphoria, which is almost a ah contrast to gender euphoria.
Understanding Gender Euphoria vs Dysphoria
00:03:56
Speaker
So those two kind of operating together and and being in tension But there's also if people choose to, and not every trans or non-binary person chooses to undertake gender-affirming care, that can be another source of joy where you know finally we can feel at home in our bodies, where perhaps before there was a struggle with that. So that could be another source of joy.
00:04:20
Speaker
I found, too, in my personal experience, the connection with community to be a particularly wonderful experience where people who are going through similar experiences, where you don't have to explain, where it's just very easy um to exchange pronouns or communicate.
00:04:38
Speaker
to appreciate or understand or ask really thoughtful questions to surface even more understanding about oneself and the gender diversity that we have. This is so beautiful and very touching. I have now, you know, related to coming out as trans, ah so many folks that either have connected online or offline.
00:05:00
Speaker
And so there's so many different areas where we can find that joy um through having this experience.
Media Influence on Trans Narratives
00:05:08
Speaker
How does mainstream media kind of shape our and understanding of that?
00:05:13
Speaker
Because you've you've talked about this joy that comes from being trans and comes from connecting with other people. But I know at least from my experience of this, one of the things that made me really frightened to come out was this idea of like everything's going to be really negative and everything's going to be really scary and nobody's going to be accepting. And so there is this kind of... um narrative that's played on how how does that kind of shape our understanding of trans experiences that's so true and i can relate to that because i think about ah movies like boys don't cry like that's traumatic for somebody who is thinking about coming out and thinking about oh these are going to be these dire consequences which there are
00:05:59
Speaker
for some, right? Like it's not that it's made up in any way. ah But if that's the only thing that can really draw people to stay in within themselves without sharing with others.
00:06:12
Speaker
and but But unfortunately, if that's the only thing that's represented, that could really have a damaging impact on folks who are like, oh dear, like this is too much. I don't know if I can handle you know, social exclusion, violence, a whole number of other things that are represented on the screen.
00:06:32
Speaker
And certainly I'm not saying that we shouldn't represent any of that. That is really powerful stuff, even for cisgender people to realize just how much we're up against um in in certain um segments, even more, right? If you think about trans people or even trans women of color, like there is very serious violence there.
00:06:52
Speaker
and it's important to showcase that. But I would say, especially if trans people are involved in the screenwriting, um or even writing articles, you can see that there's a balance that that is struck. Even a series such as Pose, you know they really did show the the real hard aspects of that life.
00:07:14
Speaker
But they also showed you know, self-determination and agency and you laughter, like in the face of like some really awful stuff that these these trans women, particularly black trans women face.
00:07:27
Speaker
and some non-binary folks as well. And so I think that's important to show the fullness of that experience so that people are, you know, it's not just folks who are coming out, but even to be feel good in oneself as one is out in the world, that can really help to just ah texturize the experiences and and have all of them represented and reflected.
Personal Stories of Gender Euphoria
00:07:52
Speaker
You talked a bit earlier about gender euphoria. Can you explain that a bit for those who haven't experienced it? Yes. So it's a ah term that maybe is a little bit more, it's it's come it's it's been in the community, but I think in broader society, it's coming through a little bit more.
00:08:10
Speaker
But as the word suggests, euphoria is like an extreme amount of joy and excitement and just be feeling electric ah and that being associated with one's gender specifically.
00:08:25
Speaker
ah And i think for some, ah especially if they're perhaps cisgender, they may not connect to that and because maybe they haven't had so many like standout moments where it felt like really good to be one's gender.
00:08:41
Speaker
um And so that tends to be something a little bit more what trans folks experience. um And as I mentioned, it is in contrast to the gender dysphoria, or it has there's an interplay with the gender dysphoria, which is about not feeling at home, whether in one's body or in one's social roles related to one's gender. So,
00:09:04
Speaker
If there's kind of having to have figure it out or be in struggle with it, then when that is released in some way, whether figuring something out, coming out, or having some sort gender affirming care, that can bring about this, like, just such a strong sense of joy. It's really hard to describe, ah but it's like like every cell in your body is alive. It's very cool.
00:09:30
Speaker
What's your your own experiences of gender euphoria? do you mind if i Do you mind if I ask that? Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for asking. I think it's really important to ask folks you know to make sure they're comfortable sharing this, even if it is about something good, right? ah Because some people are a bit shy or want to be more private about that. But certainly I'm very excited to talk about ah gender euphoria. ah For me, what that looked like is i certainly, when I first came out and started to undertake gender affirming care, ah particularly I had top surgery and I'm an avid runner.
00:10:08
Speaker
And so one of the first orders of priority, once it was safe and everything was healed properly, I wanted to go running topless or without my shirt on. And that was like very exhilarating.
00:10:20
Speaker
to experience that for the first time because felt very strongly that that i that that aspect of my body was very, I had a struggle with for a long time.
00:10:32
Speaker
And so once I got to to do what I felt I should have been doing all along, it was just a wonderful, beautiful moment. It's very kind of simple in in some way, but it's It was just this big moment, a big shift, and a sense of relief and excitement. And I really enjoyed that.
00:10:51
Speaker
I also, when I came out as trans for the first time, and was just so relieved that, and I had so much extra energy because I was applying, before that, applying it to like figuring out what was going on and, you know, figuring out how to share with other people. And there's just a huge amount of pressure to figure it out and share that once I did it, I had so much extra energy. I didn't know what to do with myself.
00:11:21
Speaker
So I i ah learned how to play the trumpet ah because I needed to like it exudes this exciting noise. Now, I don't think my ah neighbors were all too excited about this direction, ah but you know this is just tells you just how much, how how freeing it is ah by contrast.
00:11:43
Speaker
to what was before. And so there's just a few examples, certainly at work as well, to be able to be more open with others. I was able to be more vulnerable in a way that other people responded in kind, and it drew us closer.
00:12:00
Speaker
to some of the colleagues. And there wasn't as much of a barrier that was there before. And they could really sense it, I could sense it. And it actually allowed me to have closer relationships that, you know, made our work much more seamless and effortless. And there wasn't as much conflict or or even not necessarily like direct conflict, but just like an undercurrent of stress. it was kind of, that was That was not eliminated because there's still stress related to work, but um it just went that much easier.
00:12:32
Speaker
So there's just a few examples from my own personal experience around gender euphoria. I love that story of you getting into
Research on Gender Euphoria in Trans vs Cis People
00:12:42
Speaker
trumpet. It's so funny.
00:12:44
Speaker
my My first experience of gender euphoria was with you, actually, when when you used my pronouns. I cried for six hours after that isn't that isn't that crazy wow yeah because you were you were the first one to to um to change to using they them pronouns and yeah i was so like electric i i had never i had never understood what gender euphoria was um obviously i'm i'm around people who who talk about gender euphoria and i i love it for them um but i had no concept of what that was until until that moment
00:13:21
Speaker
I didn't even realize how important it was to me until that moment. That's the key. i think that you put a hit on such an important thing. And thank you for sharing your story too, because that's so powerful um that, you know we, we go, ah we kind of make do with a lot of things and are like, ah, you know, how how big is it really?
00:13:41
Speaker
You know? And then once you take that step and people respond in kind, like, it' It's earth shattering. I know it feels like maybe a hyperbole, but it isn't. It's just, it's so fundamental, foundational and powerful and in ways that totally understand six hours.
00:13:59
Speaker
Like ah when I had top surgery and the relief after that, i I had a moment too of just crying and crying and not because I was sad or upset or anything. it was just pure tears of joy, like just relief and joy.
00:14:14
Speaker
ah Yeah. It's such a weird experience if you've never experienced it before because – like I had been but because I go by she they pronouns and I had approached this by saying oh but she's fine like you can use she her absolutely fine and and it is fine it affirms me equally but I had never experienced the that other so suddenly it was like it was so overwhelming and if you remember I asked you to stop talking because it was so overwhelming and we were recording a podcast episode and
00:14:50
Speaker
So I wish I hadn't because I really, i needed to hear what you were saying. But yeah, completely shocked me. I wasn't expecting it.
00:15:00
Speaker
So what a great feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And understandable. You're like, time out. I've got to regroup. Oh, if if I started crying, I wouldn't have stopped as I didn't as soon as we got off the call with that.
00:15:13
Speaker
Yeah, funny, the best feeling, not not something I had experienced before. And you kind of mentioned that actually, that that this is something that really only trans and non-binary people experience. But is that kind of always the case? Or is there any is there any research about this, about about whether cis people experience this?
00:15:32
Speaker
Yeah, as the resident data nerd, I have dug into this. and yeah Yes, and we've got to have the numbers, right? So ah Yeah, so there has been some preliminary research. I think more needs to be done to fully understand.
00:15:48
Speaker
ah But among you know several thousand folks down in the United States, ah we there has been some data collected. ah Both cisgender and transgender people were surveyed on their gender experiences, ah particularly focused on if they've experienced gender euphoria.
00:16:08
Speaker
And it was very clear that, you know, more than trans people experience it more than cisgender people by a factor of about three to four times as much. Right. So among trans folks, the survey says 73 percent have experienced eu gender euphoria. So quite a high level.
00:16:26
Speaker
um i um the majority of folks. um And then by contrast, cisgender folks experience about 15% of the time, one five. So much lower levels.
00:16:38
Speaker
Again, I think that has to do some somewhat with um the struggle in contrast to the happiness and euphoria. ah There is a release in that.
00:16:49
Speaker
And um for cisgender folks, there there are obviously struggles related to gender. ah but there's not as much related to either their roles or their bodies. And so as a result, it just kind of hum along, right? There's no ups. Maybe there's a little bit up, a little bit down, but it's not big contrast, right?
00:17:13
Speaker
ah So that's part of what could be going on. And certainly the research reflects that. And so it's really interesting to see just how much of a difference there is there.
00:17:23
Speaker
ah because of that, those differences in experiences. But cisgender do experience it, but just at a much smaller level. I i'm not don't remember exactly what their euphoria is linked to.
00:17:37
Speaker
um Yeah, so I can't remember exactly that one, but there is some some aspect of euphoria. Yeah.
Creating Trans-Inclusive Workplaces
00:17:43
Speaker
How can workplaces kind of foster environments where yeah gender euphoria is more experienced or trans people in general are just more celebrated and their their joy is is recognized and and fostered?
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it's a really good one to think through because sometimes, as we mentioned at the outset, if we're only thinking about the struggles, Yes, we're trying to eliminate those struggles, but I think there's something beyond just eliminating struggle. It's it's how do we enhance the joy and that already exists and rather than tamping it down or or whatnot. So there's a few different ways that can happen. I think kind of the more subtle side is just making it no big deal, right?
00:18:25
Speaker
Whether it's exchanging pronouns or If somebody is changing their first name, being really proactive to you know get that right and to adopt pronouns quickly, um maybe need little extra practice to make that happen. But those are very powerful things. It may seem minor, but as you were explaining, it's it's actually a really big deal.
00:18:47
Speaker
And if people can land that as quickly as possible, ah without a big fanfare of like, what's this all about? i don't get it. Or you know any other type of kind of dialogue that sometimes occurs when something new presents itself.
00:19:01
Speaker
um So much the better if it can be just like, okay, no problem. And then implemented as quickly as possible. But of course, there's also other things that if people are excited, maybe they're coming out for the first time,
00:19:17
Speaker
And they're really excited about this. I mean, there are some people who are a little bit more private and they just don't really want to talk about it and we want to honor that. But I'm talking about the folks who are like, oh my gosh, I just, I'm so excited about figuring this out.
00:19:31
Speaker
you know I love sharing this with other folks. It's to provide them with an opportunity in some way or another, right? Whether it's a blurb in the newsletter, if you have one, or even a panel that you could put together and inviting them, if they wish, to be on that panel to tell their story.
00:19:50
Speaker
ah These are very powerful, impactful ways that you can kind of amplify what's coming up for them in a way that you're providing space for them to to share that if they so wish. We're never forcing folks or expecting folks to do that, but if they're there, like...
00:20:06
Speaker
This is a way that people can connect on an emotional, mental level on this topic. And that could be wonderful for everybody involved. um you know Certainly allowing them add to you know ah share in any other way that they think would be useful to them.
00:20:25
Speaker
um And then I'm trying to think of some other strategies, but those are some of the ones ah first ones that come to mind. where it's kind of more subtle and then maybe bigger efforts that can be used to help to amplify that joy.
00:20:38
Speaker
You know, certainly sharing newsletter articles, if you don't have a trans person that you know of in your midst, ah you can share articles where people are showing that joy.
00:20:50
Speaker
Art is a very beautiful way for people to to to express that. ah So there there could be ways that you could show that art and display it. um and highlight that this is a trans artist if if they've shared that information.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, so there's just a few ideas.
Supporting Trans Joy as Allies
00:21:07
Speaker
and And sort of on a wider scale, if that's at work in general, how can allies kind of make space for trans joy or what role can they play in that?
00:21:18
Speaker
who Yeah, co-workers are a huge deal. Of course, we spend a lot of time with co-workers and to the degree that people can show up for trans and non-binary folks if they've come out for the first time or they've always been out and they're just continuously you know excited about some aspect and you know being an active listener to understand to take time, you know, go for lunch and hear that person's story if they're really wanting to share it, to, you know, ah yey read things that you can share with that trans person to show that you really care and that you're really excited about whatever aspect they're really, um yeah, is creating a lot of joy for them.
00:22:03
Speaker
There can be also in ways that you can ah go to events where trans and non-binary folks, whether it's dance poetry readings or or whatnot, where you can say, hey, let's as a colleague, you know let's go check this event out together.
00:22:22
Speaker
ah it sounds really interesting. And there are ways that, again, connecting with community can be so powerful if and if they haven't already done that. And then that shows that you you know, understand that it's, you know, it's good for learning for the ally.
00:22:38
Speaker
And then it's a really powerful connection for the trans and non-binary person. Again, just a few ideas off the top of my head on how to do that. I think what you were talking about with excitement resonates so much because that was one of the things that was so great when I told you.
Future Vision: Valuing Trans Perspectives
00:22:53
Speaker
I mean, yeah I'm also in a hugely privileged position where my colleague is the president of Transfacters. So, you know, it's it's probably going to go down well.
00:23:02
Speaker
when I told you, your reaction was, and and you were the only person to do this, no shade to anybody else, but because I had been trying to make it as small as possible and not noticeable to people almost, everyone kind of matched my energy and was very calm about it.
00:23:19
Speaker
So you were the first person to actually be excited for me. And then I was like, oh, I can be excited about this. I'm allowed to feel excited about it. so yeah, I think making that space for that excitement,
00:23:33
Speaker
I didn't know how excited I was until you make that space. Having someone make room for that is just, it's just such a kind thing to do. my gosh. I thank you for sharing that. Cause that's, it's these very subtle moments that people might not even realize what the power of what they've just done to provide that space, that permission to you know, ease into and be fully oneself. Like,
00:24:02
Speaker
ah I can appreciate there's like a sometimes, depending on the context, a bit of timidity of like, like, how much can I lean into this and, you know, wondering and wanting to make sure everybody else is okay too, right?
00:24:15
Speaker
That just having that full space to yeah lean into whatever is needed and coming up is so powerful. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. Oh, I will never forget it. I will never forget that because it was really pivotal for me. No, no, everyone else would have done that if I had, I think, made it clear that I was excited, but I didn't. I, I didn't know.
00:24:37
Speaker
So no shade on anyone else. Sometimes there is a time and space for it to be like, yep. got it and we're on it, you know? and ah But then sometimes that excitement, it feels like a big emotion, at least in my experience. And I don't want to put that on people. And so I do hold it back versus if there's somebody who can, you know, can receive that, then it's like, oh yeah, let's, let's lean into this. Right. Really exciting moment.
00:25:09
Speaker
When you talked about gender euphoria and certainly this is my experience, and the experience of people that I know. But it seems to be that when I've spoken to cisgender people about it, they've kind of assumed that it has to be a very big thing, like there are these big moments.
00:25:26
Speaker
But really, I think more commonly, gender euphoria is actually in the quite small things. So it could be seeing your first name on a letter for the first time or hearing it called out in the doctor's waiting room or something like that.
00:25:42
Speaker
these are the moments that that really bring the joy it's the the small things more often than not oh yeah totally and they like we were talking about before can catch you by surprise too where you're just like oh i didn't know i needed that or it was going to be so powerful but yeah you're right it is the very subtle things and so not discounting as an ally you know, the inclination to do something in a positive and supportive vein um and to to provide that, you know, of course, observing the response to see, you know, if that landed or not. But yeah, it can be so wonderful and and really cool.
00:26:23
Speaker
Do you have any experiences on a professional level of gender euphoria? Yeah. Yeah, so the, you know, coming out to colleagues, well, very scary at first.
00:26:34
Speaker
ah There were a lot of joyful moments in that people like you were so describing kind of really received me in that information ah rather than i I don't think I was worried so much about hostility so much as I was just like, okay, whatever, you know, like that kind of flat line response. ah And when I didn't get that, it was like, it felt really, really good and um very exciting ah to be a part of that.
00:27:08
Speaker
I'm trying to think of other instances like within a professional context where, you know, there's this kind of, euphoria uh maybe because you know uh like you know if i'm doing data analysis or whatnot i'm already experiencing and data euphoria but uh yeah i can't think of any at present but if i do i'll come i'll let you know sure i have one kind of big question for you here um if we were all in a dream world and
00:27:42
Speaker
trans people could flourish without any barriers, ah what would that look like? What's the vision? and it's interesting. I i asked that ah like maybe a few dozen, like a five or so, six or so years ago ah to a group of trans folks. And at first people were stumped, right?
00:28:02
Speaker
It was just because we're having to focus on all the things that we're trying to fix, it can feel so overwhelming or like a lot. So there's not the kind of what's after that thinking that can go on. But I think it's so valuable to reflect on that.
00:28:20
Speaker
Because of course, we want to go beyond just having no problems. We do want to thrive, right? And really be our full selves, but not only our full selves, but then with the freedom that that brings, freedom from being mired in struggle ah to life,
00:28:38
Speaker
be able to apply that to things that we love or that are meaningful to us. And i think there's something to be said about, um if I have a vision of the future, it's like who we're not only celebrated but sought after because we have a unique perspective on the world. Certainly not purely unique. I mean, I think other group people also have unique perspectives, but that we're seen as an important puzzle piece to put into the tapestry of humanity and um people not only feel something's missing when we're not at the table or not in the mix, ah but that they're like, oh, we're we're we're going to miss out too, right? It's not just that trans and non-binary folks will miss out by not being there, but that they will miss out
00:29:25
Speaker
And I similarly want to feel that and do um ah with other equity groups, right? So that just, we feel incomplete ah when we're not with each other kind of thing. And then the insights, the innovations, the um things that we'll solve for humanity, not just for ourselves, um because we're free.
00:29:49
Speaker
to be ourselves. I think that's what I'm really excited about and where I can see ah a future where how we design things, whether you know buildings that we design or ah cities or you know even digital stuff. you know We've got AI on the front, like how we can do that in an ethical way.
00:30:08
Speaker
I feel like trans people could have a really important contribution to that. um right I once met somebody was was working in quantum computing and was really advanced because They had had so many different experiences when it comes to gender that they were just able to grasp quantum computing, and think, on another level than others. Of course, I'm not in the field, so I can't technically say if that's the case. So this might be more vibes-based than ah evidence-based, but I did get a sense that they were well in advance of band of
00:30:51
Speaker
be able to contribute to that field ah because of their experiences. And I think that could be said about other groups as well, but certainly I think for trans folks. So that that's that's very beautiful.
00:31:03
Speaker
Now, whether people are able to see that and value it, I don't know, that might vary person to person, but hopefully in this bright, beautiful new world with trans joy at the center,
00:31:16
Speaker
it will will unlock people to to really fully be there. And we're already doing that, even though we're struggling. So I can see that just being tenfold, right?
00:31:28
Speaker
For sure.
Encouraging Joy in Gender Identity
00:31:30
Speaker
Any final thoughts on trans joy and overall happiness? Oh yeah. Just, you know, if, ah if you're trans and non-binary yourself, finding that joy at all costs or not all costs, but you know, as much as you can.
00:31:48
Speaker
And that's a really important thing. And to, you know, covet it and safeguard it and amplify it with people that you surround yourself with.
00:31:59
Speaker
Certainly for cisgender people is to understand gender euphoria. You also deserve gender euphoria, in my opinion, right? So maybe there's something that if you have trans people in your life or you can search online to better understand that gender euphoria to tap into it for yourself?
00:32:20
Speaker
What are ways that you're holding back certain aspects of yourself to align with societal expectations that don't quite fit you, that prevent you or from keep you from your own gender euphoria?
00:32:34
Speaker
And then i would just say that organizations can be um stewards and good stewards of joy, gender joy, whether they be for trans people or for cisgender people, by implementing safe spaces for people to express that joy.
Kly's Online Presence and Resources
00:32:53
Speaker
So where can people find you, Kai, living your euphoric life online? Doing backflips and playing my trumpet.
00:33:07
Speaker
Sadly, it's in my in my storage unit here, so it hasn't been played in a while. ah But yes, we're on all the social medias, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, threads, Blue Sky, etc.
00:33:21
Speaker
And also we have a newsletter that comes out monthly with fantastic resources. So um yeah, be sure to sign up for that on our website. And yeah, look forward to staying in touch and look forward to the next episode where we unpack yet another important topic such as trans joy.
00:33:41
Speaker
Great. See you later. Bye for now.