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Jokes, Banter and Trans Inclusion: Finding the Sweet Spot at Work
23 Plays3 months ago
Workplace humour - essential for team bonding or a fast track to HR? We all love a bit of banter to get through the day, but what happens when the joke is at someone's expense? All too often, trans and non-binary people find themselves as the punchline of jokes that make the workplace anything but inclusive. In this episode, Kai and El unpack the fine line between laughing with your colleagues and laughing at them. Are we all too sensitive these days, or are some jokes just... not that funny?
Let’s talk about humour that actually brings people together- because no one should have to choose between fitting in and feeling safe at work. Plus, a special treat (or warning?): Kai drops the ultimate dad joke. You’ve been warned.
Want to get in touch? Contact us at podcast@transfocus.ca
Here's some examples of jokes we love... but caution - they're definitely NSFW!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:02
Speaker
This is Gender in Focus. I'm El and each week I sit down with the president of Trans Focus Consulting and all-round gender diversity genius, Kai Scott. I get to ask all the questions you've ever wanted to ask about how to make the workplace and the world a better place for trans and non-binary people. Let's get into it.
Harmful Jokes and Inclusivity
00:00:27
Speaker
In today's episode, we're talking about harmful jokes and how to address them when they happen. From the overt to the more subtle jokes, we'll provide helpful tips to navigate them to create a more inclusive environment. People have a lot of opinions about what makes a good joke or what makes an offensive joke. ah So what what counts as a ah harmful joke? kai Yes, that's a really important matter. I know people want to be on the right side of, you know, harmful versus, you know, inclusive joking, and especially in the workplace. And a way to distinguish them really easy frame is, are we laughing at someone or with someone? And that can really help to to understand
00:01:15
Speaker
Usually, when people are harmfully joking about trans and non-binary folks, they are dismissing, diminishing, or making fun of some important aspect of being transgender or non-binary. For example, they might make fun of pronouns and how silly and ridiculous that is, ah or put down some very important need. Say, for example, making fun of gender-affirming care,
00:01:42
Speaker
and mischaracterizing that need that folks have. And there are various other types of examples where people are just putting trans and non-binary folks down. Another example is, you know, kind of eye rolling. This is a little bit more subtle in nature. Eye rolling about, you know, the number of genders that there are, that there's more than just two genders.
00:02:05
Speaker
And so, especially when people will reference things like the categories that are available on Facebook. And I can't remember the number that that are available, but they'll say, oh, that's just so ridiculous as a way to put down the the gender diversity that exists. There is this discourse of everyone becoming too sensitive and being very, what's the what's the phrase that's used, snowflake? or Right. what What would you say about that? are we Are we all too sensitive now? Or is there a bit more to it? Yeah, I hear that quite often as well that I can't joke anymore, especially in the workplace and people being worried about being off base in that regard, and even maybe in their personal lives too. um And I would say that if they just kind of
00:02:59
Speaker
reflected it on their own experience to if there's some sort of sensitive aspect, maybe not even about their gender identity, that if they thought about somebody making fun of that or diminishing that or discounting that, that wouldn't feel that great either, right? So it's not actually people being overly sensitive, ah that these are kind of core matters to their own being, their own identities,
00:03:22
Speaker
And that it's just ah a matter of being respectful towards a folks, ah when especially when we're talking about in the workplace. And there's so many different ways of approaching joking with one another, because of course, joking is this positive bonding thing that can happen ah between folks. um if they're on the same page. And so it's just better to understand where somebody is coming at or from in order to be able to joke with them in a positive and an inclusive and in ah a way that bonds folks rather than tearing them apart.
Addressing Inappropriate Jokes Effectively
00:03:57
Speaker
If somebody hears somebody making an inappropriate joke about a trans person, or really any inappropriate joke, but to be honest with you, what what would you say is the best way to address that, but not escalate it and make it a sort of big, big sort of explosive thing at work? Right. to Right. ah Totally understand the desire for some folks to step in in that moment and address the matter. There's many different options for how to address it. It depends on the personality or the style of the person. Some people are very direct and blunt and are like, I don't find that funny. you know, or or that's inappropriate, or this is hurtful because of X, Y, and Z. ah Or people can be a bit more indirect and change the topic very quickly um or subtly to redirect it to another better, more inclusive avenue or discussion um as a way to signal that that really wasn't cool.
00:04:56
Speaker
And there's also the option of following up with somebody after the fact to say, hey, I wanted to revisit our conversation from an hour ago, a day ago, ah when you said X, Y, and Z. And I really ah had a hard time with that because of these reasons. um And you can really, in a private one-on-one conversation, get into an unpack.
00:05:21
Speaker
in ways that people may not realize what they're actually saying and also maybe for example that there could be trans and non-binary people in the room or even loved ones of trans and non-binary folks who hear those jokes and it's very unsettling and um like it's not they're not sure if it's safe or if people can be relied upon ah based on that type of joking. So it is really important ah to address the matter, whether indirectly or directly. Of course, everybody has their own way of going about that. There's no right or wrong way. And really important is just to be able to talk about it with folks and unpack it for them. Why would you say it is so important to do that? ah Like why why unpack it or why push back on them rather than just sort of ignore it and move on?
00:06:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think some people and myself included in certain instances where maybe I'm tired or I just don't know quite how to address it. It feels a bit awkward to interrupt the flow of a conversation. I may hesitate to interrupt or to to push back on something, um especially a joke. um There's kind of a momentum behind joking. And so that can feel hard to do in the moment.
00:06:40
Speaker
ah That said, if jokes are unaddressed, ah then people can think that that's okay to continue to do, and what ends up happening is that that can either stay the same and continue in that vein, or things can actually get worse, where people think, oh, I have license to essentially throw people under the bus ah and and disrespect their dignity ah by talking about them in this way. And then they'll take some people can take further steps ah where they might say that directly to somebody, ah feel emboldened, and then continue in that vein of disrespect. So it's really important to address it. And then the other factor is that there could be somebody, trans or non-binary,
00:07:28
Speaker
ah Not everybody is out as trans or non-binary, so and there could be people in your midst who just haven't shared that part of themselves. ah And so this is then further confirmation of why they didn't share more about themselves is because and there's this kind of allowed disrespect of people.
00:07:49
Speaker
And if you think about it, in other equity groups, we do tend to encourage folks to intervene there as well. And so I think this is just a ah good practice in general, no matter the group, ah that that be that a standard be set for how we interact with one another, and that certain things are just off the table.
Good Humor vs. Harmful Humor
00:08:10
Speaker
I'm going to put you a bit on the spot now because you've mentioned a bit earlier that there's laughing with someone and there's laughing at someone. So what is an example of a good joke?
00:08:27
Speaker
Hmm, This is the the million another million dollar question is like, um what does constitute good joking? And I will say that it depends on the individual and kind of where they're at. And ah so I would say it's an individually based or relational ah type of thing. ah For some, you know, people are really into dark humor and they're they want to kind of push the edge of things um and can say things that for others would be like wow ah very kind of maybe even startling and then there's others that are kind of more subtle in their humor maybe even dry and so just understanding and appreciating the spectrum of different um ah types of jokes. um I tend to go for the silly dad jokes around ah
00:09:18
Speaker
being trans and non-binary, which I'm sure some people would roll their eyes at, right? um So I will not say this is the standard of a good joke, but I will say things like, you know, I'll be on Instagram or whatever, shorts on YouTube, and I'll be flipping through and and there'll be a ah ah fun joke around, you know, what do you say to a non-binary person who's sad?
00:09:42
Speaker
and has two people sitting at a dock by a lakeside and then the the captioning the the talking point is you would say they're there as in the pronouns there. And I know that's like so cringe for so many and so that's why I say joking is a very personal thing and not everyone will enjoy that type of ah fine wine of joking.
00:10:08
Speaker
ah But certainly, there's all kinds of other ones that address and push back and ah you know of are about inclusion and how that's a valuable thing. And I've seen plenty of examples of stand-up comedians, whether ah they're cisgender or transgender, be able to tackle those and also be able to speak to the unique experiences of trans folks.
00:10:30
Speaker
because some of them are kind of interesting and funny and so it's not shying away from the uniqueness and distinction ah but it's doing it in a way that is retains the dignity ah of the trans or non-binary person whether being spoken about or if they're speaking about themselves but ah there's so many different examples of um stand-up comedians that are emerging right now and it's a really exciting time to see how the joking happens. ah Certainly that's out in society and that is a bit different when we talk about the workplace where you you want to, you know, think through that fairly carefully and and get to know somebody ah before you start to joke with them. But I think a gradual step-by-step approach can really help ah for for folks to to get comfortable with one another and to have be
00:11:21
Speaker
ah joking be inclusive and a bonding thing. There is a difference between the way that we joke sort of outside work and then when we get into work and that there is this idea that we can't joke about anything anymore or um you know everybody is too sensitive like we said but actually that there is a line when you when you're at work as to what is and isn't appropriate. So um what does that look like?
00:11:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's ah that's a good point in terms of we may have maybe not as close of relationships at work, and there's a professional standard that we're expected to you know exhibit and be at work. and so Joking as part of that is a bit more nuanced rather than in your own personal life We can generally be a bit more relaxed. We have deeper relationships So we have a sense of you know, what's go what's no go for folks and maybe you know somebody over a longer term so that you have plenty of examples of what worked and what didn't work with that individual and Or set of people if you have a friendship group or a family and so those are pretty easier to navigate Certainly not always But then when you get to the workplace, that's where you know, maybe you don't know somebody as well or for less time and And as a result, there's a bit more caution, um at least at first, with getting to know somebody ah to be able to joke with them. And that's, of course, not just on trans and non-binary issues. That's hopefully in general ah to get a sense of of where somebody is at.
00:12:57
Speaker
and then, you know, and following up with that understanding. um And there could be an opportunity even in the workplace to just check in with folks to be like, you know, I shared this joke and I i thought it was funny, but I want to make sure you know, you're you're okay with that or you're comfortable. ah So there are ways we can check in with each other, even in a workplace context to to get that understanding, to be able to, um and yeah, to to be able to respectfully in interact with one another. um And the deeper the relationship, the easier it is, I think, to to joke amongst oneself. And
00:13:38
Speaker
even in some respects is an important part of being at work because it creates levity and lightness in the work and I certainly remember and still do with the work that we do at Transfocus, I think levity is a big part of how we work together.
00:13:53
Speaker
And it's fun to to kind of, ah you know, let off some steam or or just, um you know, be kind of more playful in our interactions. But of course, it's important to to be respectful in that regard and to understand each other well in in that. So yeah, so there's just a few thoughts to think about the distinction between everyday joking in our lives versus what the kinds of joking we do at work.
00:14:20
Speaker
This is a super mini episode. So do you have anything else that we should add or that you wanted to say, or can trans people take a joke, Kai?
Nuances in Trans Humor
00:14:30
Speaker
also That's That's really important. This is the hard hitting journalism that we need.
00:14:38
Speaker
And I will say that at least in my friendship circle and all the research that we've done, ah trans people can take a joke and actually really enjoy joking. It's an important part of being able to navigate these worlds that sometimes aren't set up for trans folks and joking is a very integral part of being able to live and to to have joy and to ah be a part of that. So, of course, and wanting not to shut down joking with the people in there in our lives, right? So,
00:15:11
Speaker
it's it's more just kind of getting on the same page that's an important step ah before launching into all kinds of joking, right? ah So absolutely, trans people love jokes. You heard it here first. And and feel free to to lean into that and to understand that in more depth while understanding that there's some nuance to it.
Guest's Online Presence and Resources
00:15:34
Speaker
Where can everyone find you on social media, Kai?
00:15:38
Speaker
So we're on all the social media platforms. So check us out on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, threads, if you're more text-based, and Blue Sky more recently. So all very exciting and good way to stay in touch. We always have tips and tools that we're sharing on a weekly basis. So come check us out. Well, thanks so much for joining us for this episode. And we look forward to talking more in future episodes. Bye for now. Bye.