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Surprise! Even the Best Leaders Are Still Learning!
16 Plays1 month ago
The pressure on leaders to have all the answers? Yeah, it’s REAL - especially when it comes to inclusive leadership.
In this episode, El asks Kai about his experiences working with organizations to make workplaces more inclusive for trans and non-binary people, sharing how even the most experienced leaders are still learning and evolving when it comes to creating inclusive and diverse work environments. (Spoiler alert: Not having all the answers is totally fine!)
We explore why inclusive leadership is a continual learning process, and why leaders need to embrace sharing what they’ve learned and inspire change without the pressure to be perfect. But it’s not just about the leaders! Frontline staff also play a crucial role in driving workplace inclusion. We discuss how employees can approach their leaders with curiosity, collaboration, and actionable ideas to keep conversations about diversity and inclusion moving forward.
Tune in for a real look at how workplace inclusion is a team effort - and how inclusive leadership can make a real difference.
Take our quizzes and get our free downloadable resources!
1. How Do You Show Up as a Trans Ally at Work? Take our quiz for individuals here
2. How Ready is Your Organization for Trans Inclusion? Take our quiz for organizations here
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Want to get in touch? Contact us at podcast@transfocus.ca
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Transcript
Introduction to Gender in Focus Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
This is Gender in Focus. I'm El and each week I sit down with the president of Trans Focus Consulting and all-round gender diversity genius, Kai Scott. I get to ask all the questions you've ever wanted to ask about how to make the workplace and the world a better place for trans and non-binary people.
00:00:20
Speaker
Let's get into it.
What is Inclusive Leadership for Trans and Non-Binary Individuals?
00:00:23
Speaker
In today's episode, we're talking about leadership buy-in and what inclusive leadership looks like in support of gender diversity.
00:00:32
Speaker
There's so many different aspects to how leaders can show up for trans and non-binary folks, and I'm really excited to talk that through and unpack that a bit more with you, El ah Hello, how are you doing today?
00:00:44
Speaker
and doing so well, thank you. How are you doing? Excellent, yeah, I'm doing really well as well. Great. um I really wanted to start with what inclusive leadership actually looks like. Absolutely.
00:00:56
Speaker
So inclusive leadership is a very, it's not a recent thing, but certainly we're talking a lot about it recently. And there's many different aspects to inclusive leadership where people whether it's managers, supervisors, or parts of the executive, are have greater understanding of inclusion and what that looks like and how to foster that within the culture, within the structures of the organization.
00:01:23
Speaker
and There's many different dimensions to it. I know there's say Deloitte and various other organizations have categorized those different aspects, whether it's cross-cultural competency or curiosity or being able to understand the distinct needs of different groups by having a better ah understanding of what their issues are to be able to respond to them and address them.
00:01:50
Speaker
or be able to leverage other people in order to be able to address the issues.
How Should Leaders Support Trans and Non-Binary Individuals?
00:01:56
Speaker
It's just not only being aware, but it's an active lookout for the issues so that it's not on the shoulders of the person in a particular equity group to be able to bring those up. And that is the same for trans and non-binary folks where it's not on their shoulders to have to always ah point out the issues that you have a leader that essentially has somebody's back and and can really ah bring them through the ah the various challenges and to accompany them in a very supportive way.
00:02:31
Speaker
And to also be able to teach others in on the team or in the department ah to be able to step up to set those expectations that people understand how to show up for trans and non-binary folks or people in other equity groups.
00:02:46
Speaker
who Would you be able to go into what that looks like more specifically with gender diversity? and some Yeah, that's ah such an important aspect and certainly one that we see leaders taking up now that they have a better understanding that trans and non-binary folks are a part of the equity landscape. Certainly, there's been a lot of focus, understandably, on women and being able to support them ah in leadership roles and development and training and whatnot.
00:03:18
Speaker
ah But now, trans and non-binary folks are on leaders' radar. So what does that look like on the ground? Certainly people, and least organizations that come to us that need help and support are when ah trans and non-binary folks come out. That's kind of the most obvious one that people pay attention to.
00:03:39
Speaker
And leaders can you know freeze in that moment because they haven't had training or the the understanding to know how to support a trans or non-binary person in that coming out process.
Identifying and Addressing Systemic Issues
00:03:52
Speaker
ah So we help them with that. and And it really is key. One subtle thing just to illustrate as a tangible example, when somebody comes out,
00:04:04
Speaker
ah if that leader is not themselves trans, they may go to things like, oh, you're so brave, um which is like a very positive intention ah to kind of underscore the bigness of the moment.
00:04:19
Speaker
um And so it's not that they're malicious in any way, but that's not... terribly well received by trans and non-binary folks for whom this is a necessity.
00:04:30
Speaker
And so really being able to prepare and think about how one reacts initially, which sets the tone for the rest of the interaction by, you know, thanking the person for sharing that information, um saying that you're there to support them and that you're really excited for them, right? So there's different ways that you can kind of take that positive intention and and redirect it away from you're so brave, right?
00:04:59
Speaker
Again, that's a very small example of ways that leaders can get prepared. There could be instances where leaders already know that they have a trans or non-binary person on their team.
00:05:11
Speaker
and are looking out for things where systems or spaces may not be set up ah for that trans or non-binary person ah to fully participate in the work, whether it's a forum not having enough first name fields or not enough gender categories to respond in the survey and to be aware of those and to flag those ah with human resources or executives of the organization. And so that way,
00:05:40
Speaker
you're leading the way and not having to fall on the trans or non-binary person to raise those.
Creating a Positive and Inclusive Culture
00:05:47
Speaker
But if you don't notice those, it's still really good if if a trans or non-binary person raises those topics ah to be responsive, to take them seriously, and to thank them for coming forward with that information and not to like let it sit idle and think, well, I hope somebody else takes care of that, but I don't know what to do about it, so I'm not going to do anything.
00:06:11
Speaker
So is these are some of the dimensions or aspects. But even if you don't know somebody is trans or non-binary or on your team, doesn't mean that there aren't folks. Some people are not out at work.
00:06:25
Speaker
or thinking about coming out. And so even creating an inclusive culture where you talk positively about trans or non-binary person or you use annual events to highlight issues and ways that people can show up.
00:06:42
Speaker
All of that can be very positive signaling ah for folks who are maybe sitting on the sidelines wondering if they're gonna share more about themselves. So those are just a few examples and scenarios and that ways that people can be leaders or step up but as leaders for trans and non-binary folks.
00:07:02
Speaker
You were talking just then about if trans and non-binary people see issues and they want to raise it with their leader. But what about more generally with frontline staff? If they tend to be the ones who are seeing the gaps sort of on an everyday basis, what is the role of frontline workers when it comes to kind of that work within inclusion?
00:07:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's so important because sometimes leaders are handling so much and it's understandable that things might, you know, they may not register things or like you said, they're not on the front lines seeing the upset clients or customers, trans or non-binary customers, and or they may not register that they have a trans or non-binary person on their team um or may just ah not know what to do. And so kind of...
00:07:51
Speaker
silently walk by. Frontline workers have can have closer relationships with ah co-workers and so know what the issues are. And they also are serving customers or clients that they see what's the matter.
00:08:08
Speaker
And so it's really important for frontline staff, if they do see something, to say something to leadership. Oftentimes leaders are relying on frontline staff to flag these things.
00:08:21
Speaker
Sometimes frontline staff are a bit hesitant because they might even feel like they're telling leaders what to do and ah ah rather than recognizing that they're an integral part of important changes.
00:08:35
Speaker
And it's not like you have to say, why didn't you see this? How could you? you know We're not accusing leaders of of missing this. it's It's more just saying, hey, I noticed this thing.
00:08:46
Speaker
Do we have any plans or... you know Just asking questions can often unlock many doors and create that pathway for change that is so necessary. And oftentimes leaders are really thankful for that information because it's just not on their radar.
00:09:02
Speaker
And the more times people raise the issues, ah the more that they go and get the help that they need to make the long-term change. So you might put in an interim change, right?
00:09:15
Speaker
So if somebody, for example, there's not two first name fields and somebody provides a legal document that has their legal first name, but they tell you that they have another name that they go by on a daily basis,
00:09:27
Speaker
Then as a short-term measure, you can put that in the comment section just so you can let other staff know to use that name um and then flag it with leaders. So you've got a quick workaround for it, um but flagging it with leaders then will help them take that long-term step to creating two first name fields as a way to honor the name that hasn't been changed yet legally, um which is very common among trans and non-binary
Communicating Inclusion Gaps to Leadership
00:09:55
Speaker
folks. So Just that that kind of flow can really help um make real tangible, clear changes.
00:10:05
Speaker
But if frontline workers aren't raising that, unfortunately, and leaders don't know to make changes. And then they often assume incorrectly or correctly that um there's nothing the matter.
00:10:18
Speaker
There are no problems. um And so that's a ah key part of it. You don't actually need leader effort that frontline workers can provide that important impetus for change.
00:10:32
Speaker
I really liked what you just said about not kind of going in with accusations, but more leading with curiosity, kind of like asking the questions instead. I think that's a really nice way to look at it. And I i was going to ask you that hesitation that frontline workers have with bringing things up with their leaders.
00:10:49
Speaker
Do you have any strategies that are like good ways to notify leaders um in a way that kind of brings confidence?
00:10:59
Speaker
I totally appreciate why frontline workers hesitate. Sometimes it depends on the culture of the organization, where if it's very hierarchical, there might not be a flow, a well-established flow from frontline to leader, where it can be quite um you know difficult to raise things or even to know the pathway of where to raise them.
00:11:24
Speaker
So I totally appreciate the hesitation. um and if it's a little bit more flat, it's a bit easier to to to know kind of who to talk to and where, when and how and whatnot. But in terms of specific strategies, it's as much as you can to highlight the issue, right? I tend to make it very concrete ah where, you know, i grab a few screenshots to say, you know, this is what's currently the case, right? You know,
00:11:54
Speaker
We'll go back to the concrete example of two first or one legal first name field and then say, and this client or customer or whoever came to me and asked for, you know ah said they had another name and then I was put in a position of like not knowing what to do.
00:12:13
Speaker
right So that you can kind of plot out the journey that somebody undertook and to show that the organization not only doesn't support the customer in this case, but actually also the frontline staff.
00:12:25
Speaker
They are left guessing and figuring something out, kind of freestyling a in ways that feel really unsettling. And especially if you have somebody who's really upset, ah adding in a bit of a emotion they had, ah they were very agitated, ah you know they suggested this and you know just kind of fill out um that and even writing it down in a bit of a document can really help give people a view to all the sides of the equation.
00:12:59
Speaker
And that could really illustrate something for leaders And then just a few questions at the end to, and show how you took initiative as a frontline staff to say, and I put it in the comment field for now, but I realize that's not a sustainable solution in the longterm.
00:13:17
Speaker
And I want the success of our organization and, ah you know, care for the client, right? Or customer. All of that, i as if I were to receive that as a leader, like give this person a promotion, right? So I don't think it would be poorly received. And if it is, maybe that organization is, um the the culture there is a quite the greatest, right?
00:13:42
Speaker
um But yeah, exactly. But if you're able to kind of explain all of that in a tangible sort of way that people can leaders can almost see themselves in your shoes.
00:13:57
Speaker
That I think is really powerful. And that document allows them to talk to other leaders, ah or he maybe even, you know, bring it to somebody outside of the organization, right? Maybe they want to enlist ah some support, you know, maybe they want to talk to Trans Focus.
00:14:17
Speaker
ah because I'll tell you, sometimes we're presented with an issue and i have very little sense of what that it looks like on the ground.
00:14:27
Speaker
And the more detail that I have, so much the better for solving it, right? Because there's many different solutions. But if you don't have what is actually at play, it really becomes difficult. And I, in essence, have to kind of um prompt for all of that information. So if it's already laid out, it becomes really easy or easier to solve.
00:14:49
Speaker
So that's what I would suggest for frontline staff to to to undertake. And sure, it might take, you know, 15, 20, 30 minutes to put that together.
00:15:00
Speaker
ah But that puts you on a very good trajectory to to solving it. And also, you know, depending on whether the customer client comes back, you can show that, you know, you've done this work too.
00:15:15
Speaker
And that will actually impress the customer or client um because oftentimes they're the issues that they raise are ignored entirely or mostly.
00:15:27
Speaker
And so this type of legwork really shows that the organization cares. Yeah. How can leaders work with other leaders to kind of to develop this?
00:15:37
Speaker
Yes.
Peer-to-Peer Learning Among Leaders
00:15:38
Speaker
So leaders amongst themselves are so important. I think peer-to-peer learning is quite transformational. Certainly, you know, ah leaders to frontline workers, there's a dynamic. And if leaders are aware, they can usher things in that will really help frontline workers get things done and and understand the reasons why and what needs to change and whatnot.
00:16:05
Speaker
ah But leaders amongst themselves are also very important because sometimes certain leaders can get stuck and They may not fully understand ah gender diversity or they get confused.
00:16:19
Speaker
ah They're not quite up to speed and other leaders are. And if there's kind of lateral support, peer-to-peer support, I think that goes so much further than top-down approaches.
00:16:36
Speaker
Certainly, executives setting the tone is really important for other leaders to translate onto the ground. But ah leader to leader can really do things in a very profound way.
00:16:50
Speaker
I certainly have heard of a lot of examples where you know just pulling somebody aside to say, hey, I see you're really struggling with a team member that, say, is trans or non-binary.
00:17:00
Speaker
and just walking them through. This is not call-out session. This is not, again, shaming or blaming anyone. It's more just saying, hey, I noticed you're struggling, and you know I don't know everything either, um but I have a few things that if you want to sit down and practice or um talk through some of what they're concerned about, anxious about, whatnot, just having a safe place to go um where you can unpack those things and in a tangible way, especially leaders understand the pressures that they're under, all of the different things they're trying to balance and will appreciate what a leader is going through and also encourage them to go further in their inclusion journey in a supportive way.
00:17:49
Speaker
So I think just spelling out what they've learned and sharing that with somebody else to say, yeah, I was also concerned about this, but then when I learned more or I saw this or I read this article or I listened to this podcast or ah took this education session, suddenly this light bulb went off for me and I was able to see on the other side of it, right? Just even plotting that journey of learning.
00:18:15
Speaker
And especially if you're, you have a similar starting point to where that person is at and being able to kind showcase how you got to a different place, ah more supportive place. I think those types of stories are so profound.
00:18:30
Speaker
Oftentimes people dismiss them and are like, Oh, that's too simple. I'm like, Oh, those are really important um because we all start somewhere and you know, we land somewhere different and the journey there is sometimes a mystery, a bit of a black box. And so the way that you can talk to somebody about that can really help them go go further as well and make hopefully the culture in general much better at that organization for gender diversity.
00:19:01
Speaker
Sometimes I get the impression that there is this pressure for leadership to kind of know everything and already have all of the answers ready. So I guess kind of working with other leaders in that way can really build that and and reduce the pressure. because You have like a support system.
00:19:16
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So many folks are looking to leaders, not just on gender diversity, but all the equity issues. And I certainly am not dialed on all of them. I'm continuing to make progress and I am committed to doing that.
00:19:33
Speaker
But, you know, we can't expect everybody to know everything. And that's why we're so important to each other, especially if we share the same level of at at an organization.
00:19:45
Speaker
to say, hey, I don't know everything on this topic and maybe you can exchange, right? It's not to say that this person is only a deficit of knowledge. They could know something way more on disability.
00:19:58
Speaker
And so you could be like, hey, I know about gender diversity a little bit more, it looks like, than you and you know stuff on disability. Let's you know get together every month for an hour over lunch and talk about these issues, right?
00:20:11
Speaker
And so that you don't feel that pressure that you're talking about of having to know everything. And I don't even, i hope it's not the expectation of organizations. Maybe it is um communicated verbally or non-verbally, um but that there there's a bit more team effort around it in ways that are sustainable, um tangible, like actionable,
00:20:36
Speaker
And in i think there's a bit of a collective effort to make that possible ah in a way that people feel inspired rather than kind of beleaguered or burdened by this ah extra effort.
00:20:52
Speaker
Of course, there's so many other responsibilities that leaders are having to handle. And hopefully by ah bit of a team effort, people can make that possible in their organizations.
Collaborative Efforts for Inclusivity
00:21:04
Speaker
do you Do you have any final thoughts on inclusive leadership before we go? Yeah, just words of encouragement to leaders. Of course, you're very important part of the equation.
00:21:16
Speaker
And like I said before, not the only ah part, frontline workers, unlocking you all is also important. ah You know, it's not just on the leader to know everything, and see everything.
00:21:30
Speaker
um Others can contribute and do have a role. And that if everybody kind of bands together so much the easier, ah whether leader to leader frontline to leader or leader setting expectations for frontline workers. And so thinking about all the different directions and where you as a listener stand and figuring out what you want to do to either inspire a leader or if you are yourself a leader to inspire others in the organization
00:22:01
Speaker
or even figure out how to lean on other leaders to to make your learning that much richer. So it's definitely possible. and And um together, it sounds very cheesy, but we are stronger.
00:22:13
Speaker
so just encouraging that, that the kind of banding together and and figuring that out, whether on this topic or any other equity topic.
Resources and Connection for Gender Diversity
00:22:24
Speaker
I'm going to link the quiz for organizations that we have on the website. um Could you talk about that a little bit?
00:22:31
Speaker
For sure. Yeah. So we've developed actually two quizzes, one for organizations that, especially as leaders, it's really good for you to check that out because that'll kind of spotlight some of the things that may not be on your radar, especially from a structural standpoint.
00:22:48
Speaker
We talked about first names as one example in this episode. There are a handful of other ones that typically trans and non-binary folks face. So Just by answering a few questions, you'll be able to get some really powerful results and also some free resources based on ah some of the the the answers that you have.
00:23:09
Speaker
If you're a frontline worker or perhaps not a leader in an organization, we have another quiz that'll give you ah your allyship type. ah So I know lot people love the those kinds of quizzes where you get to know your type.
00:23:25
Speaker
So we've adapted that for this quiz. And this will really give you an insight as to where you are in your journey. Maybe you're just starting out and or you're further along, maybe even a bit frustrated ah because you want things to be progressing faster, which I totally understand.
00:23:44
Speaker
No matter your type, youl there'll be some specific resources that you'll get for free at the end of that quiz along with your results. So it'll be really... interesting to see where you're at. And so invite whether you're a leader or a frontline worker to take those respective quizzes, and we'll put them in the show notes so you can check them out.
00:24:04
Speaker
Sweet. And where can we find you, Kai, on social media? Oh, yes. All the social medias, plural. So we've got LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.
00:24:18
Speaker
I don't do any dances on TikTok. Not yet. i don't know that's in the future. I'm frightened. I'm going to get you to do that. um TikTok, Threads, Blue Sky, think there's others, but those that captures the the the bulk of them.
00:24:36
Speaker
And then of course, also we have our newsletter, which we come out comes out every month. We've got some really great stuff in there and letting you know all kinds of free events that we host ah from time to time, along with resources. So definitely great to to get on that.
00:24:53
Speaker
and stay on the the pulse of change that's happening. Sweet. See you later. Okay. Bye for now.