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Revolutionizing Gendered Languages: How Spanish, French & German Are Evolving for Gender Diversity
17 Plays1 month ago
Language shapes how we see the world - and when gender is built into the words we use, inclusion becomes a real challenge.
In this episode of Gender in Focus, Kai is joined by TransFocus team members Nico, Ange and Mirko to explore what gender diversity looks like in the French, Spanish and German languages, where gender is woven into so many aspects of communication. They discuss the obstacles, the creative solutions emerging, and the shifts already underway to make these languages more inclusive and reflective of the beautiful diversity that exists. This isn’t just a conversation about linguistics - it’s about identity, visibility and belonging. And whether you speak a gendered language or not, reimagining how we use language has far-reaching implications for how we understand gender in everyday life.
Language shapes our reality, but our reality also shapes our language. So how do we make language work for everyone? Tune in to explore what’s changing, what’s next, and why it matters.
Now with Mirko joining our team, we are so excited to share that we have launched our Gender Diversity Basics course in Spanish, alongside the English and French versions we already offer! For a free preview of the course click here!
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Gender in Focus' Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello folks, this is Gender in Focus, a podcast exploring how to create a more inclusive world for trans and non-binary people. I'm your host, Kai Scott, and I use the pronouns he and him.
00:00:15
Speaker
I'm the president of Trans Focus Consulting. Each week I dive into real stories and expert advice, offering practical tips and actionable takeaways to help you lead with kindness, confidence, and heart.
00:00:28
Speaker
Tune in to discover how you can make a positive difference. It's just a conversation away.
Exploring Gendered Language Challenges
00:00:39
Speaker
Really excited to bring you this podcast on how to navigate gendered languages, including Spanish, French, and German. And to help us unpack the many layers of this topic, I'm really excited to invite our multilingual team here at TransFocus to share their personal experiences and insights about how to make these languages more inclusive for all.
00:01:02
Speaker
Before we dive into this important discussion, let's get each of you to introduce yourselves, your pronouns, your role at TransFocus, and what languages you speak. ah Let's start with Ange, and then we'll go to Nico, and then followed by Mirko.
00:01:17
Speaker
Okay, thank you for having me. My name is Ange Villeneuve. I use she and they pronouns. I'm a non-binary trans feminine person located in unceded Wabanaki territory called Endakina, which is a just two hours away from Montreal in Quebec.
00:01:34
Speaker
um I am a workshop facilitator and educator at TransFocus. I'm also a translator and I do a consultation on a bunch of topics and I work in French and in English.
00:01:47
Speaker
My name is Nico. I use he, him pronouns, and I'm the project manager at Transfocus Consulting. um I am originally from the southwest of France, so I speak French.
00:02:00
Speaker
I work every day in English, mostly in English, and I'm currently recording from Madrid in Spain, so I also speak on the daily um Spanish.
00:02:13
Speaker
Excellent. And Mirko? So my name is Mirko, my pronouns are he, him. Thank you for having me today. i am a transgender man. I'm located in near Barcelona, in Spain.
00:02:29
Speaker
i was born and lived in until my 20s in Italy. in in italy And I'm currently working as an educator, facilitator with Transfocus.
00:02:43
Speaker
Normally, i when I work, I speak in Catalan and Spanish, also sometimes in Italian. So these are the three languages that I speak every day.
00:02:55
Speaker
And then I can speak also English and French. Fantastic. So we've got quite the the spread of different languages here today. So that's really exciting. And of course, thank you so much for coming.
00:03:06
Speaker
um I myself ah grew up in Germany for eight years when I was a small child. And and so I also speak ah German along with English. So I'll be you know providing a few insights on that as we go along.
Cultural Resistance in Language Inclusivity
00:03:19
Speaker
So to jump into the first question here of this episode, I'm i'm curious to hear ah from your experiences, what are some of the challenges you see in using gendered language like Spanish, French, and German when discussing or addressing trans and non-binary folks?
00:03:37
Speaker
What are some of the things that you've noticed? Well, in in Spanish, now i'm I will talk mostly about the Spanish and Catalan languages.
00:03:48
Speaker
So in in Spanish, since these languages are very gendered and very binary, the first big problem is that the language does not include non-binary people. So first of all, the language, non-binary people are invisible and non-existent for this kind of language.
00:04:09
Speaker
So it's very difficult to talk about trans realities. Hmm. Yeah. How about Ange? What have you noticed? Yeah. I mean, all that is also true for a French language as a very like heavily binary ah gendered language. um And I think there's also a different, another component and i'm I'm going to speak to the specificity of of where I'm from here too. Like I can't speak for other Francophone spaces, which I'm sure would have like a lot of different particularities, like other French spaces, like, you know, like France and
00:04:41
Speaker
Haiti and Senegal and Switzerland switzer landed just like a bunch of different ah French spaces. But in the context of ah Canada specifically in and Quebec. um So I think because the language is so heavily gendered, it does require a lot of creativity and interventions in language to achieve inclusivity.
00:05:00
Speaker
And because we're in the context where Francophones are linguistically minoritized within the larger context of Canada, it does create something where people have a lot of feelings around language and people can be really protective of language because of that that that dynamic.
00:05:16
Speaker
um So that definitely creates a lot more resistance when it comes to interventions and like really kind of a hands-on approach with language and really kind of adapting it to our needs and achieving inclusivity through creative solutions.
00:05:30
Speaker
ah Not everybody's particularly open to it, ah but there's definitely ah you know ah small group of us who are working in it and kind of love the poetic aspect of playing with the language that has so many restrictions and find it exciting to play around and discover what's possible.
00:05:47
Speaker
Such a good point to understand the cultural context or even the geographic context in which this is happening where, you know, there is the reality of trans and non-binary folks and and how to fit those, you know, into language, especially if it's quite ah binary in nature or only referencing men and women and, you know, narrow notions of men and women at that.
00:06:10
Speaker
yeah. Yeah, such an important thing to appreciate and understand where people are coming from, especially if they're feeling protective of a language. And certainly that aspect is present.
00:06:21
Speaker
I also understand in France, and I don't know if Nico, you want to speak to any of the challenges that you've observed ah in your experiences of France and in in other countries.
00:06:31
Speaker
Absolutely. it kind of reinforces assumptions in ah in a way. Having that binary and that Mirko talked about earlier, And just, there's a lot of people that wonder, for example, like, is this it a man or is it a woman? And they're just confused. They don't really know how to approach that in a sense. And even in learning the language, because nouns in French, for example, or in Spanish are gendered for an English speaker. It's it's it's very hard to figure out and which gender is a noun.
00:07:07
Speaker
and and and And even... people question why is table feminine in French? I don't get it. So how, in and I've often had the question, like, how do you know? How do you know?
00:07:21
Speaker
And I just could not respond to that. And it's just something that I've learned since I was a kid and and that's ingrained in my mind. And so it would it would take a lot also to just take that up. And even when I speak English for myself,
00:07:36
Speaker
um I tend sometimes to think that table is feminine in English, which is so odd. But yeah, now that I've been able to take that step back and really think about it, it's just, I find this interesting. So um I would imagine someone who speaks a language where nouns are neutral,
00:07:58
Speaker
gender neutral, they would have to guess and they would assume that it's either one or the other. And it's just, it would probably be the same when it comes to someone who they don't know, they will just assume based on how they look or whatsoever.
Inclusive Language Practices
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, such a good point that it just kind of infuses one's lens of how one sees the world ah by having things so gendered, even in the nouns that are used.
00:08:28
Speaker
ah Certainly, also in German, you know, there is the the feminine, the masculine. There's also a neutral, but that's often applied to things that are objects rather than people.
00:08:41
Speaker
And so you think that it'd be set up for for ah identifying and and respecting and including non-binary folks, but and so unfortunately it doesn't quite fit the bill. And so it adds much more many more layers.
00:08:54
Speaker
And to your point, Aj, it requires that creativity ah to work beyond the limitations of the language. But i i I think I understand, in if I remember correctly, that in France and other countries, there's um the l'académie, which is, you know, very thinking about language as this kind of set and, you know, protected thing.
00:09:17
Speaker
that That's another dimension to this, too. There can be a political aspect to it. and that's kind of reinforced by government. and And so it can be very difficult then to change and adapt and make the languages more inclusive.
00:09:31
Speaker
So, yeah. Since you were talking about the political aspect, um recently I discovered that, for example, in Spain, it's the same as you were saying for for the French language.
00:09:46
Speaker
And there is the RAE, Real Academia de l'Espagnol. So it means that this academy is saying what is correct and in with with what is not correct in the Spanish language.
00:10:01
Speaker
And for me, it was a surprise to discover that in Italy, it is not like that. In Italy, the Academia della Crusca, what they do is that they ah study each year the language,
00:10:18
Speaker
And based on the use of the language, they say what is now included in the official Italian language. So we don't have a mandatory academy, but an academy that is saying, okay, what people are using.
00:10:36
Speaker
So it's more responsive and dynamic in that sense and kind of listening to what's happening and recognizing that language is this breathing, living thing ah that responds to you know changes in culture and create changes in society and whatnot. So, oh, that's really interesting.
00:10:55
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. that's That's very hopeful in some sense, right? So there's a model for that more adaptive, responsive approach. So curious to hear a little bit more about your kind of personal experiences around navigating in inclusive language in your own journey.
00:11:12
Speaker
um you know What are some of the examples of of where you've found that flexibility, but where there's perhaps challenges that that you encounter ah when there's this you know very gendered approach to certain languages, the ones that we're talking included?
00:11:30
Speaker
i think Some of the something that that is kind of challenging is because it's still kind of emerging, I think. um it's It's getting more and more normalized and and institutionalized, ah inclusive language in French.
00:11:43
Speaker
um But I think what kind of... scares people off a little bit is because it since it is so like democratized still and at at the creative stage and people kind of like community based, there's multiple different approaches ah to to go by. And I think that can scare people off thinking like, oh, you know, how am I going to choose? Like, which one do I do?
00:12:05
Speaker
um So I think in that sense, education is really important because what I find is that once people get a grasp of some of the main solutions and offerings that exist to achieve inclusivity, they understand that it's actually pretty simple when you break it down and you figure it out.
00:12:21
Speaker
um But I think, yeah, I think how democratized and and creative and effervescent it is right now can throw people off a little bit. ah for sure.
00:12:31
Speaker
People can be defensive to to to big changes, but in the end, it's it's it's language is something that's alive. And I think when people kind of understand inclusive language, less so as a um Especially in French with l'académie, as you mentioned, it's such a prescriptive approach, which is like, this is how language should be. And it's completely tied to colonialism. In fact, it is linguistic colonialism.
00:12:57
Speaker
And it's almost like kind of trying to contain water with a fork, like language will move and evolve, i whatever you try to do with it. um So I think when people stop perceiving inclusive language as a prescriptive thing that they have to do and like, oh, you no longer know how to use language. Here's what you have to do now.
00:13:17
Speaker
That's not what it is. It's more so like, here's a bunch of tools that you can use, like do with it what you will. And I think that's when people start to kind of feel like, yeah. okay, I understand a tool that could help me achieve inclusivity.
00:13:31
Speaker
And now it's my choice. Do I want to be inclusive or do I not want to be inclusive? um You know, so I think that that really helps people kind of pick it up and be like, oh, I understand. I can do this, you know.
00:13:42
Speaker
That's such a good point that people can often you know jump from one, you have to do it to and think they're going to another, you have to do it vibes and can feel very kind of cramped or nervous or anxious or even resistant because of that. But realizing that it's actually a more of an invitation to play with language, to explore, to understand.
00:14:07
Speaker
to figure out kind of where one wants to be within a very broad, very expansive space. And you're right, some people that's nerve wracking because it's like, oh, it's too, too expensive and like too many places to go.
00:14:20
Speaker
ah But that that's actually, there's a beauty to that. So yeah, I love that. ah Very powerful. and i have the same experience as Ansh was saying,
00:14:33
Speaker
In the majority of cases, I experience that people are open to to listen. It's more that I don't know what to do or I'm not aware that there is a problem here for somebody.
00:14:49
Speaker
And when they discover it, the most important thing is to try to to to to try. the The thing is to try, to to decide with with your consciousness that you want to try focalize on something that is easy, the easiest thing you can you can find and go with it.
00:15:12
Speaker
and And then something that we say a lot also in in the in the courses, it's to to understand that it's not that you don't have to make a mistake But how do you recover from that mistake, which is something that makes people nervous? What what if i'm if I do a mistake? What if I don't use the correct pronoun or whatever?
00:15:37
Speaker
And so when they discover that it's not a problem, if they make a mistake, they're relaxed a lot and they can really start to try and experience this new language.
00:15:49
Speaker
It takes a weight off their shoulders of like people recognize that you know people need space to learn and adapt to new language and that there's a lot of you know grace given.
00:16:00
Speaker
ah And you know especially if people are able to acknowledge mistakes as soon as they recognize them. um And that, you know, this is different for for many folks and that they can do it does take practice.
Community Stories of Language Change
00:16:13
Speaker
It's not going to happen overnight just by thinking about it. that It actually needs to be practiced and verbalized and whatnot. But even with those that can make a huge difference.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah. You're talking about practice, Kai, and I think this is how I create conversations myself in my life. I actually practice it. And it started in English, which was probably a bit easier ah for myself, um specifically with the writing. But then vocalized it. And I've been part of an inclusive rugby team for the past four years.
00:16:48
Speaker
And i'm I was the director of diversity and inclusion. And and there was one trans person who shared that and they were alone and we wanted to ah bring in more trans folks and non-binary folks into the team. And so we wanted to create that space um that is welcoming to trans and non-binary folks. And so we started with some initiatives and one of them was to um essentially share pronouns and and and um use more inclusive language in general. And so that's where it kind of started. And I wanted to model that. So I started introducing myself with my pronouns. And I also made sure that um within the team, we were starting to use more gender neutral words.
00:17:36
Speaker
Everybody was saying all the time, okay, guys, let's get going. we we And so it's very common to hear that. And so for that, we started using common team or like strategies to make sure that um we were able to be inclusive.
00:17:54
Speaker
And that started like this in English. And then I realized, well, I got you to know a little bit more about French and I realized so how much more difficult this would be for me to.
00:18:06
Speaker
And so I learned about it through, um Ange and as well, Hélène, who they're also a facilitator at Transfocus. And so I learned and I started applying it as well. And now the way I do it is when I text my family, for example, in ah in ah in a group,
00:18:25
Speaker
text on WhatsApp or whatever. um I'm being inclusive of everyone. I want to make sure that my cousins, or women, or my mom, or my grandma is also acknowledged when I say, vous aime touss, which is essentially a combination word of tous and tout, which are masculine and feminine.
00:18:46
Speaker
And so i want to make sure that everyone is included when I say that I love them all. And um And this creates conversations. and And I've noticed recently my mom, who's organizing a meal, for example, for the family, is starting to use it. And I'm just like, this is so cool. And so it probably has some people wonder what what is this word and what does it mean? And I know, for example, my cousins will fill in my uncle and aunt because they've they've seen it in school.
00:19:20
Speaker
But I think it's like at my level, at least I try to use it more and make sure that and i'm i'm I'm showing um the example. And if people have questions, I'm i'm
Innovations in Gender-Neutral Pronouns
00:19:32
Speaker
welcoming them. And I'm i'm just, um I'm so happy to talk about it because one, I find it fascinating, but also I think it's something that really helps some folks feel seen and included. And and to me, that's really, really important as well. So And we gained, to come back to my first story, we gained so much traction and not just because of this initiative, there was a lot more initiatives um around that, but there were a lot of trans people and non-binary people who ended up registering with our team. And we were we're so proud. I mean, the Vancouver Rogues are so proud to have trans and non-binary people to be part of them the team.
00:20:13
Speaker
And they're doing so amazing. It's awesome. I was happy to be able to offer a little something from from me, essentially, and from from the team and for the team.
00:20:26
Speaker
ah such so such amazing stories and and anecdotes and just illustrates the kind of day-to-day, both practice for oneself, sharing with others, um and how it can impact people feeling welcome in a group as well, and how that's so important. And it may seem kind of small or subtle to folks,
00:20:47
Speaker
But these are the kind of day-to-day pieces that make a huge difference over time for folks to be able to see themselves. And it's not just for trans and non-binary folks. I love what you said, Nico, about this benefiting you know the kind of everyone too, right? There's including for for women, especially especially for languages that default to the masculine, right? Where there's much more inclusion of of everyone if we consider these these finer details ah that do accumulate over time because we reference it so much in our day-to-day language. So yeah, thank you so much. And we're already starting to kind of get into some of the detail of it. So I'm curious if we can just you know provide some examples, particularly, i would love to start with pronouns as an easy entry point.
00:21:35
Speaker
I know languages that are fairly gendered often just have you know feminine and masculine pronouns. And then there's a creativity that's being introduced to create, to to add gender neutral pronouns.
00:21:50
Speaker
So I'd love to hear from each of you on each of the languages as to what you've heard, what you've seen, but are some of the challenges, what are some of the exciting pieces of ah related to pronouns specifically.
00:22:03
Speaker
One thing about French that I find ah ah particular, especially when it comes to pronoun and inclusion is that it's such a vastly different, I feel English tends to be a little bit more on the same page when it comes to written language and oral language.
00:22:18
Speaker
ah French, there's a little bit more gaps there. ah So i I feel like it's kind of like a ah ah two, you have to consider both, you know, when you think about inclusion, because some solutions are actually going to be really effective in the written form and in in the oral form.
00:22:35
Speaker
it kind of becomes a little bit more awkward or a little bit more difficult to integrate. And in French, I mean, the pronoun that has ah really kind of picked up for non-binary people and just for inclusion in general, when we don't know, when we talk about a group, for example, and we don't know,
00:22:51
Speaker
ah the gender of everyone in the group necessarily, which is most times. Because we don't have the equivalent of the singular they in French, we kind of had to create the pronoun il, which is a combination of il, the masculine, and elle, the feminine.
00:23:06
Speaker
into a single word um so this works great however the way we pronounce words in french is so different that it does become a little bit awkward and i find that there is some resistance there from people who find it difficult to adopt el because the truth is in french we won't we won't like we rarely pronounce even l the feminine will often just say uh especially in the context of quebec we'll say ah just add like a shortened version and then just talk about the verb and then il kind of become il so il just kind of doesn't really fit into that narrative and i've heard um people you know like trans people making zines and like coming up with alternatives to this which i personally find really interesting but i don't think we're there yet in terms of like uh normalizing these things and like bigger institutions and organizations adopting these things
00:24:02
Speaker
But, you know, like, so and according to this zine that I saw recently, and I can't remember the title of the author, unfortunately, but it was like, ah instead of yel in the oral, it was ya which just becomes something entirely different. Yeah.
00:24:19
Speaker
I feel like I could talk about the specificity of pronouns in French forever, but this is just to say that French is so, like, you really have to think written and oral as two different components of the language.
00:24:30
Speaker
And then, ah yeah I think a bunch of people would just decide whatever works for them. But, yeah, as much as it's gaining in popularity, there's still some resistance because people just feel it's awkward to pronounce and to kind of use in an everyday basis, which, again, honestly,
00:24:48
Speaker
like anything in language it's awkward maybe the first five times you use it and then you kind of quickly kind of pick up and become used to it um but that's another conversation but yeah i think that's that covers basically the kind of pronouns dynamic uh in french um as where we are now but as i said it's effervescent and alive and very much moving as we speak probably That's interesting, though, the difference between oral and written. So to be conscious of it that, you know, might be really easy in the written, but then difficult ah to implement in and having some resistance from folks and to be able to coach them through that, too, to be, hey, if you practice, let's do it together. Let's try it out.
00:25:31
Speaker
um Then making it a bit more accessible for them to adopt that over time. Yeah. How about Mirko? How about on your side with Spanish? So with with the Spanish, well, I wanted to say that I'm talking about the Spanish that is used in Spain, because as Ange was saying before for the French language, a lot of different countries speak Spanish and there are a lot of different ways of speaking Spanish. So I'm talking about Spain.
00:26:04
Speaker
So in Spain, you have, well, and in Spanish, this is, I think, everywhere like that, we have two pronouns, feminine and masculine. So, él y ella.
00:26:17
Speaker
But what is very useful in Spanish is that there is a vocal that it's not difficult at all to pronounce, which is not taken, which is the e. So, ella.
00:26:32
Speaker
It's perfect. I mean, it's not strange at all. Of course, there are resistances. Of course, there are people saying that this is not a pronoun. But inside the community and also outside within allies, it is really used and it's getting institutionalized.
00:26:53
Speaker
It's not official, but there are a lot of politicians that are using it. So it's becoming really seen All the population, a lot of people in Spain are aware that there are some people using EYE and using the E as gender neutral.
00:27:15
Speaker
So it's very present because it's working. Yeah, that's really interesting. Kind of the easier the adoption is from a pronunciation perspective, um it just adds you know momentum behind that change and also helpful for allies and and you know the wider society, including politicians to to pick up that that use to make it more widespread and um you know as part of discussions and and and whatnot. So that's really encouraging to hear that this is maybe not as hard as perhaps in other languages. So, yeah.
00:27:53
Speaker
It seems from my experience that if it's easier to pronounce, it can help to spread it, to to spread the use of it. Because in Catalan, for example, it's not so easy.
00:28:07
Speaker
ah And Nico? I thought of English, which has he, she, they, French and Spanish, who which have the binary. And I know that, I mean, in the region i was born, the Basque country, the language, which is called Basque or Euskara, it's considered largely gender neutral. So I called my cousin who speaks Basque and and just with some questions and and I got some really and interesting answers.
00:28:42
Speaker
um So essentially nouns, adjectives don't have grammatical genders and and there's only one third person singular pronoun, which means there's no he, she, it's just one pronoun, ah which is gender neutral.
00:28:57
Speaker
Amazing. the I only knew about that because I've spoken to friends and and just like English, they told me because there's a lot of um Basque speakers who also speak French because there's one side on the French side.
00:29:14
Speaker
who constantly ah make mistakes with um nouns, they use the wrong article. So they would say la fromage instead of le fromage. So it's like feminine instead of masculine. So it's it's kind of, I mean, it makes people giggle, but you understand now why they're struggling because, and that would be the same as the English speaker that I was mentioning earlier.
00:29:43
Speaker
um But so I called my cousin and and i asked a little bit more about it. and And so, for example, if I were to say, um can you go and pick up her cheese? um in In this case, the pronoun her would be...
00:30:03
Speaker
gender neutral.
Structural Challenges in Gendered Languages
00:30:04
Speaker
What I found fascinating because my cousin was struggling and she was telling me like, but wait, you can't say it this way because it it really depends the person you're talking to.
00:30:17
Speaker
And so I was like, oh, can you say more? So essentially there is a suffix that you add to a verb depending on the person you're talking to. So in Basque, you don't need to know the gender of the person. You don't need to know the gender of the noun.
00:30:32
Speaker
But you need to know the person you're talking to. So if if it's a woman or a person you don't really know, and you would, ah in French, you would use the formal vous, which um you would essentially, to just give some perspective, use to um talk to the president of your country or the mayor of your city,
00:30:58
Speaker
It's a formal word. So for women and people you don't know or somebody or an elder or somebody important, you would use that suffix and you would attach it to the verb.
00:31:11
Speaker
um And if it were a friend of yours, somebody you're talking to casually or ah man, you would use ah different suffix. So I found that fascinating in a sense because Gender still has a role here, but it is about the person you're talking to and not the person you're talking about or the thing you're talking about.
00:31:34
Speaker
And to add to that, because i started like in my reflections, I was looking at also um the different pronouns in the different languages.
00:31:47
Speaker
And I found it interesting that in English, when we're talking about um someone's shoes, for example, um we would use the possessive pronoun of the person the person who who owns the shoes. So it would be his shoes if it's a man or her shoes if it's a woman or their shoes if they use they, their pronouns, for example.
00:32:17
Speaker
Now in French, the possessive pronoun is about the gender of the noun, which is, i for example, shoes is feminine.
00:32:28
Speaker
So if it's if it were one shoe, it would be sa chaussure. And I discovered something about Spanish and possessive pronouns in Spanish, and Mirko, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's only one.
00:32:43
Speaker
It's su. And so whether... the person is a man or a woman or non-binary or the name, the noun is feminine or masculine, it always will be sous sapato. There is no his or her or there is no son, sa.
00:33:05
Speaker
And I find this interesting. So why did English people make it one way, French people make it another way and Spanish people made it?
00:33:16
Speaker
It is... So fascinating. Yeah, there's quite the range across these different languages. And I think another thing to note, you know, with your Basque example, ah Nico, it's really interesting that there's the formal and informal, but that they're being mapped onto different or combined with different genders. That's really fascinating. and that people could, it it it loosens a bit of the gender because, know, Somebody could be referring to the informal ah when using the one.
00:33:49
Speaker
So yeah, there's just so so much diversity there. And one thing I'll add for ah on the German side of things is there's actually not a ah gender neutral pronoun. I mean, there are gender neutral articles and whatnot, but those are typically associated with objects. so And it gets a little trickier too because the if they were to use the they them version in German, it actually is the same as she.
00:34:18
Speaker
And so it would just it would cause mass confusion if that was used, so it's not used. i is ah I did try that and then are I was working with somebody else and we just got very confused between ourselves. We're like, okay, back up, back out of that.
00:34:35
Speaker
um And so, you know, there's the option of just using somebody's name that is, so no pronouns at all. Then typically people say, I'd like the masculine or the feminine, um you know, alignment with adjectives and whatnot.
00:34:54
Speaker
There is also the option of a neo-pronoun that's coming kind of to the fore. It's die dem. So it's kind of using they, them from English, but then adding a German, making it German, which happens a lot. There's a lot of English words in German ah that then get Germanified, if you will.
00:35:15
Speaker
So rather than something being gendered in German, they'll say, you know, mach etwas gendered. ah So that they're trying to kind of use and work with, and there's a lot more space for that to happen, which helps.
00:35:29
Speaker
ah But it is very difficult for non-binary folks that I've talked to in Germany ah to work with that. And it's incredibly difficult to explain that to people that they're meeting for the first time. and And so, you know, it depends on how much energy they have to explain all of that to folks.
00:35:47
Speaker
And certainly people make a lot of mistakes as well. So there's just a few kind of pieces there from German. and so you can already see within all of you know these handful of languages how complex it is.
00:36:01
Speaker
It's also making me think about um Portuguese and just like how to say thank you in Portuguese. You have to gender yourself. Like, oh thank you. Like, I think if I'm not mistaken, I think for there's like the feminine obrigada and then you masculine obrigado, I think.
00:36:17
Speaker
yeah um So it's like just to say thank you. Like there's not even a pronoun in there. And it's like you still have to disclose like your pronouns. You know, I remember when I visited Portugal, I was like,
00:36:29
Speaker
where can i find a trans person like what is my option here like what do i say and i think it was ah i think it was much like the spanish i think it was the a sound like obrigade or something okay i don't know i just said don't quote me on this
00:36:47
Speaker
but Well, we're we're going to have another ah language episode because, ah you know, we can add so many other languages, including ones that are gender neutral, like more like aligned with Basque. I'm curious to hear if there are other examples. I know we talked about pronouns and also that each noun has a gender in in these languages that we're talking about.
00:37:07
Speaker
But there's also things like adjectives and needing to, you know, agree with the um either the person or the person. the noun that is as being used.
00:37:20
Speaker
So are there any other um initiatives or you know ways to address these types of issues that come up in the languages that we're talking about? I think and it's making me think about like just the fact that pronouns is one thing, you know, but gendered agreements is such another also like can of worms here because like if someone, if you know that someone uses the gender neutral, yell equivalent of singular they um in French,
00:37:48
Speaker
You also have to figure out what agreements they use because the second you use a past participle or like you want to conjugate a verb with their pronoun or use an adjective to describe them or describe anything, um you're going to have a gender agreement that's tied to that. So you have to pick and choose. And um there aren't, there are some experimental like,
00:38:10
Speaker
ah gender neutral agreements that I love to include and kind of use. But most, you know, most words are very like, you have the masculine ending or you have the feminine ending.
00:38:21
Speaker
And in the written form using the interpunk, so like the middle dot, um it's really easy to write it off and just like include both endings, you know? But then again, you know, yeah when it comes to how to speak it orally, then you have to make a choice in terms of like which you're going to use, how you're going to say this.
00:38:42
Speaker
um And yeah, there's some word endings that are like easier to work with, like heureux, heureuse, heureuse is the masculine, heureuse is the feminine. Some people will say heureux to kind of include both.
00:38:56
Speaker
um there's There's some ways, but it's definitely like new language. And it's you always you always have to find a balance between... ah Because it it definitely throws people off more when you invent something new, when you bring something new.
00:39:10
Speaker
ah People ah tend to be more receptive to when you're able to achieve inclusivity with what's already there. So I definitely try to always find that balance to not throw people off too much. Not for the sake of respect respectability or anything, but more so for the sake of just...
00:39:25
Speaker
keeping it accessible and keeping people engaged and ah keeping people wanting to to use these strategies and not be afraid of them. It's all about finding a balance and not being scared to experiment, I think.
00:39:36
Speaker
You're right. It's not just about the pronoun. like There's a bunch of other things that also need to kind of shift and adjust. And so what is that other thing? And it's important to know that it's not always exactly created.
00:39:48
Speaker
um and that people are working with and trying different things and to be aware of those things and if you know also trying in one's own life and you know that might be a moment of like confusion in an interaction and it's okay for things to be confusing and that are invites conversation to talk about these issues to to unpack them and and and include more people and i like your point about accessibility that If things are too far from what people are used to, and then it takes more energy for them to get there. And, you know, in certain circumstances, that's okay that people need to, you know apply more effort.
00:40:28
Speaker
um But with everything else going on, there's a balancing act there too. Yeah. What about Mirko on your end with Spanish? So again, with Spanish in general, the solution with the E is very, very useful because so as for the pronoun also works for adjectives because it's ah almost a free vocal. Because if you in the gender language, you have the masculine with the singular it's with O and the feminine with A.
00:41:05
Speaker
But then the plural, you don't need to change the vocal. It's just adding the S. So you have guapo, which is masculine, guapa, which is feminine, and guape, which is neutral, which means handsome, beautiful, and... of the above. Exactly, and guape, which is the neutral.
00:41:28
Speaker
ah So it really it works really well. And then you have the... If you have some situations like senor, senores, which is singular and plural, then in that case, you can use the the I. So senores.
00:41:43
Speaker
And it it doesn't sound... very strange. So it's it's very simple and that's, again, what I think the reason why it's it's working. And in general, I think that one of the best solutions from my point of view with this kind of very gendered languages is to shift, to use a lot of persona so that try to to avoid
00:42:15
Speaker
the gendered language, which is possible because there are a lot of ah words that are describing people without using a gender. It's just that you need to dig a little bit. You know, sometimes I can feel that my brain is working a lot because like, okay, now i would use ah gender word and I don't want to.
00:42:37
Speaker
And i'm I'm looking for another way to rephrase the sentence or find the world which is neutral. And this, I think this is also a technique as Ange was saying that we want to um to find a solution, something that people can use, don't get scared or feel that, ah, it's too difficult for me.
00:43:04
Speaker
So I think that this way it's it's a possible solution. You need to use a little bit your brain not go to with the the very automatic word that is popping to your mind, but it's it's not a very strong effort. You know, it's like, okay, it just takes few seconds to think and rephrase it or use this word, which is, and sometimes it's it's very funny also to create words.
The Path Forward for Language Inclusivity
00:43:33
Speaker
For example, in Italian, it's very complicated, very, very complicated. It's much more complicated than Spanish or or Catalan to to find some, neutral words or ah to to create this gender neutral because all the vocal are taken and we don't end words without the vocals.
00:43:55
Speaker
Vocals are always there to end the word. We don't have another option with, I don't know, vocal and consonant. We don't end words with consonant.
00:44:06
Speaker
And so it's also, i sometimes I create words. Like if I want to say kit and plural kits, Normally it's impossible in Italian, it's the the generic masculine.
00:44:19
Speaker
So it's Bim Bim. This is my bimbo.
00:44:25
Speaker
Exhibit A. exactly Perfect. And with the adult, you can say persona, which is neutral. So when I want to talk about little persons, I say personcina, which is not a word, cut but for me it works.
00:44:43
Speaker
So I'm using a lot with my family, with in different situations, and no one is asking anything, but well I don't know, it's there.
00:44:54
Speaker
I love it. It's so creative too, right? and And you're right that it does take a little more kind kind of cognitive, intentional approach, which at first you know requires a bit of you know its energy, so to speak.
00:45:08
Speaker
um But that you know you can apply a lot of things if you're paying attention. and noting things. And certainly in in German, i find that a lot that, you know especially if talking about roles, you know say students, that is gendered as it is in other languages, right?
00:45:25
Speaker
You have one for masculine, one for feminine, but that if you can reformulate it rather than saying, you know the students, are you know masculine, feminine, um you know there are people who put the little star similar to the dot that you were talking about, Ange.
00:45:41
Speaker
um In German, they call it gender, gender, you know, a little star, which is really cute. But you can also reformulate it and saying those who study.
00:45:51
Speaker
Right. And so similar to you, Mirko, you're kind of putting person first. And so, you know, it's the student student. um So that helps, you know, get gender out of there.
00:46:04
Speaker
because you don't always need it, right? And and things are kind of over gendered and so ways to shift it. And sometimes I'm doing that mid sentence, right? Like you were talking about Mirko is just like, you're you're like, oh, we're going into gender territory. Okay, quickly, how do we remap this and and then ah find a ah good solution that includes everyone. So Nico, any thoughts on your side about you know agreements?
00:46:30
Speaker
I find it fascinating because I'm and speaking English, Spanish, and French. And I realized that the one I still haven't really tackled yet, orally speaking, is French. and i And it's great to practice in writing it because i can't take my time and I'm behind a screen or I'm in front of a sheet of paper.
00:46:57
Speaker
ah But I am i'm starting to practice a lot more Spanish i because I'm continuing playing rugby and I'm in an inclusive team. And so I'm getting to know a little bit more different ways of speaking um in an inclusive way.
00:47:17
Speaker
um I've also just ah supported Mirko with non-demand course. um and on our platform. And um i so I got to speak a little bit more about it and learn a little bit more about it. And Mirko right. it It feels a little simpler.
00:47:37
Speaker
But yeah, French, I just have not... dug into it or even got to practice. I do it with my family, but I don't do it on the regular. And and i think practicing is key there um to be more comfortable. And and yeah.
00:48:01
Speaker
Absolutely. Name of the game. And to there's also a level of like deciding too, right? Like, okay, I'm going to do this. Yes, it's going to be awkward.
00:48:12
Speaker
It'll take more energy at first. And ah let's try this adventure, right? and And recognizing that maybe not all the time, you know this is something possible um and choosing one's and based on energy level and whatnot. But certainly it is a very valuable endeavor ah just for one's own self-exploration, but also for the people around us can make a huge impact.
00:48:37
Speaker
So just starting to to close this episode and thinking forward, we've talked a lot about kind of the past, you know what is currently, ah things are shifting and shaping and and crystallizing and and and and morphing. I'm curious what you think will happen in the future, how this will continue to evolve,
00:48:59
Speaker
I know we don't have a crystal ball, but if there's anything in particular that you're you're really hoping will happen and or, you know, see a momentum behind and or if there's anything that's missing that we really need to pay attention to and devote some, you know, creativity to continue to develop that aspect of language.
00:49:19
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just curious to hear your kind of closing thoughts on this topic. It's true that it takes like ah cognitive pause and effort. to shift from a language to another.
00:49:33
Speaker
But it is also true that you arrived at a certain point that it feels awkward the other, the gender language. Because for example, in my case, a lot of times when someone is using masculine as a general, as a universal, I'm like,
00:49:53
Speaker
Okay, so i'm I'm imagining that the audience is just men. So if someone, if we have like a girl and a boy here with us and someone is saying, guys, I'm visualizing that there is two boys there.
00:50:10
Speaker
And so if it's not, I'm like, why are you saying guys? This is not two guys. This is not two boys. Something is not correct.
00:50:21
Speaker
So at a certain point, it becomes easier. So about the future, I don't know. It is true, which is not a very positive note, that there is a lot of resistance, especially towards non-binary people.
00:50:38
Speaker
And that's why, for example, in the law that we have here in Spain, which was approved in 2023, non-binary people were just cut off.
00:50:53
Speaker
don't don't they They don't appear there. They don't have a place. And that recently, the biggest center left party, which was the responsible for all the progress that we had since 2005, decided to cut off the Q from the LGBTIQ+. So the Q and the plus are gone right now from their official documents.
00:51:25
Speaker
There is a lot of resistance resistance, but I feel that this resistance is most in the political movement than in the population.
00:51:38
Speaker
Because there is a lot of consciousness and interest and ah in the population, in the general population, because LGBTIQ plus people are more present and visible.
00:51:53
Speaker
So a lot of people knows LGBTIQ plus people, knows non-binary folks, knows trans folks. and are getting more and more conscious and and sensible about this topic.
00:52:08
Speaker
So I feel that the use will be bigger than maybe what could happen in the political level. Well, it gives a lot of hope because you're right. If people have, they know people in their own lives, that's a huge motivating factor to understand these issues, ah both from an experience perspective, but also to figure out how that translates into language as well.
00:52:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good point and and very hopeful, yeah despite what's happening on a political level. Yeah. What about Ange? your thoughts Yeah, I'm i'm definitely ah sorry to hear about the removal of of certain letters of our precious acronym. um Yeah, it really, that bothers me. And I think it it reflects, you know, the the global rise and of fascism that we're witnessing across the world right now.
00:53:03
Speaker
and That's having kind of a ripple effect. And I think... you know when it comes to right now in the future i think we definitely need allies now more than ever we need uh people who not just trans and queer people to initiate these conversations and to enact those changes and to really concretely embody the role of of allies with concrete behaviors and gestures that they can do so i'm i'm hoping that in the future you know we can uh work with allies more and have allies show up more because that we we need to be resisting this.
00:53:39
Speaker
And specifically in the context of of ah Quebec and like French, but yeah, the specific French in Quebec here, I've definitely heard over the years um People whose first language is French um say that they basically chose to completely abandon their first language and and speak only English just because it's more receptive, it's easier to express and they feel more seen and more themselves in English.
00:54:07
Speaker
um I think that's a really valid sentiment and I feel like people should do whatever they need to feel safe, including that. And also um ah my approach is a little bit different. I have ah I'm a little bit more like I'm here, I'm queer and I'm here to stay.
00:54:23
Speaker
um And I think there should be space for every for trans people in every single language. ah ah So I'm definitely hoping for more space and more creativity and for people to to adopt these changes and understand that this will just make more people feel comfortable in the language, which, you know, at the end of the day, contributes in protecting the language that they're so keen on protecting.
00:54:45
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah, I'm hoping that we become less and less afraid of change and ah creativity when it comes to language and just enjoy the process and make space for trans people everywhere, not just ah in in languages that are maybe a little bit more easy to work with, but also in in the trickier ones, too. Like there's trans people everywhere. So we need that.
00:55:09
Speaker
um Yeah, that's what I'm hoping for. So well put and it's so inspiring too. And and yeah, just to to really take those those bold steps together, ah not just trans and non-binary folks, but but you know everyone really ultimately, and that it's not such a scary thing. and And a really good point that some people, it's too difficult for them in particular languages. So thank you for sharing that because that is a ah reality that's too heavy for some folks. and And so they opt out of languages. And I don't think people realize that folks are leaving languages.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:55:45
Speaker
Tells you how bad it is, right? And also appreciate people such as yourself, Anj, who are sticking around to to really commit to how do we change this? Let's work together. It's not so scary. it's We can be creative. Yeah.
00:55:58
Speaker
okay What about you, Nico? What are your thoughts? Well, there is definitely more visibility. There are definitely more allies. And this is ah exciting in the sense that it it is positive. And I think there's um an outcome in the future that it's going to continue to grow and grow.
00:56:21
Speaker
essentially language, if we were to talk about language, has evolved up until now, and it's going to continue to evolve. There's no other way. It can't stop here. so um And also because, like you mentioned, Kai, there's people like Ange that are really, like,
00:56:37
Speaker
bringing this to the next level and, and, and, and people like you all educating others on, on those changes and how nimble it is and, and, and so forth. So um i for me, I just wanted to leave you with a quote that we um decided to include in the course in Spanish ah that Milko is presenting and,
00:57:01
Speaker
um I translated it for the purpose of today, but I i thought it was really powerful. And it's from Eulalia Yedo. And um essentially the quote says, ah language is a space of freedom and lets you say what you want.
00:57:20
Speaker
It is a tool at the service of humanity and not the other way around. And so we're using this make make us understand each other and and and we're now, I think, um able to express some of our feelings, some of ah who we are and and and the diversity of folks that is on this planet. and so in that quest that we all have of finding ourselves, um I think some people might find tools in within that to be able to realize who they are. And and
00:58:02
Speaker
and um I think we're just at the beginning of something something big and I'm really hopeful and positive for that. ah What a beautiful, wonderful place to to end this episode.
00:58:17
Speaker
ah My heart is filled with so much gratitude for all of you and and also hope ah for the future. And so, you know, we've covered so much important information about how language is evolving, how people can be a part of that.
00:58:32
Speaker
Thank you to all of you, Ange, Mirko, Nico, for sharing your experiences and insights in this episode. And If you want to learn more about gender diversity and delivered in each one of the language that we talked about today, certainly we offer that here at TransFocus, whether in self-paced courses or in live sessions.
00:58:50
Speaker
um And we cover how these languages can be more inclusive with the options, some of which we've talked about today. So also be sure to follow us on social media. We offer regular tips and tools. And of course, don't forget to rate us.
00:59:04
Speaker
It helps the our podcast get found out by others in here. so Again, thank you, and we'll sign off from here. So goodbye for now.