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S3E04: Networking and Building Professional Relationships, with HNBA President Carlos Bollar RLAW'97
14 Plays3 years ago
Co-Dean Kimberly Mutcherson is joined by Carlos Bollar RLAW'97, President of the Hispanic National Bar Association, who shares his thoughts on networking and building a support system through law school and into a career. Read more about Carlos here.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally-known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Production Manager: Margaret McCarthy
Series Producer: Nate Nakao
Editor: Nate Nakao
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Building Meaningful Relationships in Law
00:00:00
Speaker
Nobody's going to show up at an event, meet somebody for the first time, and expect to get business or job referrals. You've got to develop relationships with people.
Introduction to Episode and Guest
00:00:12
Speaker
I'm Kim Mutcherson. I'm the co-dean of Rutgers Law School on the Camden campus, and this is the power of attorney.
00:00:20
Speaker
Today's episode involves a graduate of the Camden campus of the law school, Carlos Boyard, who actually graduated in 97, same year I graduated from law school. And you also, you're a double Rutgers, right? So you did Rutgers undergrad and then also did Rutgers for law school.
Carlos' Path to Law and Family Influence
00:00:40
Speaker
So I appreciate very much that you're here today and really looking forward to our conversation.
00:00:47
Speaker
Well, me too. Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited. Absolutely. So one of the most fun parts of this podcast for me is that I get the opportunity to hear about the path that people took to become lawyers. And so I would love to start with you in the same way that I start with everybody else, which is tell me your origin story, right? Of all the things that you could have done with your life, you somehow ended up as a lawyer. So what was the path that got you here? Sure.
00:01:17
Speaker
I have a strong opinion on this about how people become lawyers. I believe that you either think you want to be a lawyer from when you're very young or something happens along the way that makes you wish that you were more connected to the legal community and you would do things differently. For me, it's the former. When I was young, I expect that I was an argumentative child and so people would tell me, my parents would tell me that I should be a lawyer when I grew up and that kind of infused my identity
00:01:48
Speaker
self-identity from when I was very young, not even really knowing what a lawyer was when I was a child. And as I grew older, as I watched TV and watched movies, lawyers were always depicted in interesting ways on media. And it just kind of solidified what I thought a lawyer would be. And I always projected myself on that path. It wasn't really until college
00:02:15
Speaker
that I started to get into the weeds of what the law is and what it would mean to be a lawyer, still being a little bit naive because my family were immigrants to this country, didn't know any lawyers, didn't know anybody in the legal community whatsoever. So really it wasn't until day one of law school that I got to really see what it was. So that's my path. It was a little bit immature and naive in the early days, but I'm glad
00:02:45
Speaker
I'm glad I took the choices that I chose. Well, I would love to talk to you about that a little bit more. I mean, one of the things that I, again, have really enjoyed about this podcast and in interviewing a number of our alums is a lot of them, and we didn't plan this, but a lot of them are first gen, either first gen college or first gen law school. A lot of them come from families that immigrated to the United States. They're first in their family.
00:03:15
Speaker
to get a law degree. And I think that that's always, I mean, the transition to law school is difficult, I think, for lots of folks. But I think that can particularly be the case if you don't have somebody in your family who can sort of talk you through that transition or somebody who's kind of a sounding board for you.
00:03:34
Speaker
So I'd love to hear a little bit more. I mean, I imagine that your parents were really excited for you and happy for you that you were going to Rutgers and then going to Rutgers Law School, but what was that transition like for you, right? Yeah, so just a little bit about my parents, I think that's important to know. My father came to this country as a political refugee in 1961 from Cuba, and he came to this country
00:04:01
Speaker
by himself at age 15. There was an operation called Operation Peter Pan, Pedro Pan, where the Catholic Church would take children of families that were at risk of persecution by the new Castro regime. And so my father, they put him on a plane. He was greeted on the other side by a priest and he finished out his childhood alone in an orphanage. And that really kind of formulated a lot of his identity and
00:04:30
Speaker
and his beliefs going forward. And my mother, slightly different story, came here also in the 60s from the Dominican Republic, limited English, and started here as a teenager again, that Dominican Republic was going through a civil war and all of that. But as part of that path, the immigrant experience was very much part of my childhood. It infused me with the identity I have today.
00:05:00
Speaker
What they did, and I think this became a factor in me choosing the law, is they really imbued me with a love of this country, a gratefulness to this country, understanding that nobody owes you anything, but here you can make yourself into whatever you think you want to be with enough hard work. And so that kind of love of the country, love of the legal system, respect for it,
00:05:29
Speaker
was always part of my childhood. However, as thrilled as they were for me to go to Rutgers and go to law or law school, they didn't really fully understand what that path was. I expect that that's the case for many people who go to law school who don't have that experience. Unfortunately, it happens to happen a little bit more often for diverse law students where
Challenges as a First-Gen Law Student
00:05:57
Speaker
especially children of immigrants or people who are immigrants, you show up for day one of law school, you're not mentally in the right place to do what you need to do to get yourself ready to study correctly to take the right choices to apply for the right jobs to apply for law journal, those kinds of things. It's all bewildering. And you have to learn quickly. And I did. And but definitely there are other kids that were that had advantages. And that's a good thing that they have those advantages. I'm not
00:06:27
Speaker
saying that that's a problem. It's an uphill climb for kids like me when they're coming in through law school. And the resources are there to help them, but there's no substitute for that kind of background and familiarity and family connections, that kind of thing. It's great.
00:06:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, we have tried, particularly over the last several years, but even before that, you know, to really think about what are some of the things that we can do institutionally that are helpful for students who come in and who are first gen? Because I do think that there are sometimes, you know, these little bits of background information, right? So, you know, people come in and we say, oh, you got a network, you got a network. And sometimes we'll have a student sort of whisper,
00:07:17
Speaker
You know, um, and so, you know, really trying to help people get a sense of, you know, what does it mean to be in this space? And what does it mean to be able, um, to build a legal career? So did you find that there were particular people who you gravitated to, whether it was other students or faculty or administrators, um, who helped you navigate this space? That was a pretty foreign space for you.
00:07:43
Speaker
Yes and no. And I have to take some of the blame for myself. I was always the kind of kid who didn't want to bother the teachers or people. I always said, you know what? I'm smart enough. I can figure this out. So in going back in time, I'd like to kick myself in the head and say, listen, you need to accept help and take help where you can. And it's something I've tried to pass on to my kids. But yes, there were definitely people, one that stands out for me
00:08:11
Speaker
Dean Baker now retired. Angela Baker was my research and writing professor. And we ended up becoming friends and staying friends for a long time. I just saw her recently. It was wonderful to see her. But what helped me also was back then we still had Alianza. And I got to network with and become friends with other students who had similar backgrounds and similar paths to law school. And that made my own network of friends. And having that
00:08:41
Speaker
and having that kind of interaction felt really good and was able to help me get my head on straight. And I think I did just fine in the end, but it was, you have to make those connections, otherwise you're alone in the ocean. Right, absolutely. And Ken, for folks who are listening, can you just tell people what Alianza is? Sure. Alianza is the Latino, Hispanic law student organization group.
00:09:10
Speaker
at the law school. And I was an officer, I was the treasurer of that organization. And it's just a place, it's safe space for Latino law students to get together and get to know one another and do certain activities. So it was great. Yeah. And you know, that's one of the things that I say to students at orientation all the time, right, how important it is to sort of
00:09:32
Speaker
find your folks, right? Find people who are going to be a support system and it might be Alianza, it might be, you know, the Black Law Students Association, it might be public interest work, right? Whatever it is, find some group of people who can be that support system as you go through law school. And then ultimately, a lot of times those people continue to be your support system even after you graduate. That's well said. And I think
Importance of Networking and Support Systems
00:09:59
Speaker
One of the obstacles we've already talked about is coming to law school without that network of people who can support you and building it from scratch is a challenge. But things like the groups you just talked about, whether it's the Black Law Students Association, Alianza, that kind of thing, or, and I'm a big proponent of this, obviously, bar associations like the Hispanic Bar Association in New Jersey, the Hispanic National Bar Association. Back when I was in law school, I didn't know much about
00:10:27
Speaker
their existence. The internet was just kind of taking off. You couldn't really Google anything. Google didn't exist. And the very first time I heard about the Hispanic Bar Association in New Jersey was when I was a practicing lawyer. And they put me on a panel with the then president. But because we were down here in Camden,
00:10:48
Speaker
those kinds of groups didn't come all the way down south very often. But today, those groups provide resources and a built-in network of people who are driven by the passion to help their fellow law students and kind of allow them the network and feedback that you didn't get as a law student. And so that's something, those are the kinds of resources that are available for law students.
00:11:17
Speaker
I talk to a lot of law students. They don't want to bother practicing lawyers. They're afraid that they're bothering you. But these are passionate groups of people who want to give back. And so they absolutely need to take advantage of those resources. That to me is such a great piece of advice because I think that a lot of students don't
00:11:36
Speaker
They want to sort of do that networking thing and they don't know how to do it, but joining Hispanic Bar Association or the National Bar Association is a way to sort of more easily insert yourself into the world of practicing attorneys.
00:11:53
Speaker
And you know that there are going to be people there who want to mentor, who want to be helpful. And so it is, I think, sometimes an easier way to get your feet wet than maybe just calling someone up out of the blue and saying, hey,
Evolving Career Interests and Opportunities
00:12:10
Speaker
I'm a law student. Talk to me. Yeah, exactly. And membership in those organizations is free, and it looks great on your resume. So I don't know why anybody doesn't join all of those groups. Absolutely.
00:12:23
Speaker
So I wanna eventually get to talking about the Hispanic National Bar Association, but I want to finish a little bit more of your origin story because, so you go to law school, you don't have lawyers in your family, you gotta sort of make that transition, you do well in law school. What was your thought process about what you were gonna do with your law degree?
00:12:52
Speaker
It shifted quite a bit over time when before I came to law school, I thought I wanted to be a prosecutor I came to law school and I thought I wanted to be a transactional tax attorney in law school I don't know why I just had some good professors that convinced me of that and then Really my life changed when I started taking trial advocacy classes classes that got me on my feet and I just kind of felt that adrenaline rush and
00:13:19
Speaker
and thought, this is what I want to do. I don't care what subject matter. I just want to be a trial lawyer. I want to be on my feet in arguing cases in front of a judge and a jury. And so that was my mindset coming out of law school. I got a trial level clerkship, which was wonderful here at the Camden County Superior Court. And my first job was doing plaintiff's personal injury, plaintiff's construction law, mass tort kind of a thing.
00:13:46
Speaker
And I wasn't passionate about the subject matter, but I was passionate about the opportunities I got in court. I got to try a few cases, that kind of thing. And then the opportunity came to work at Archer. They were looking for somebody to do environmental litigation. And I didn't have a bleeding passion to do environmental law. I had never taken an environmental law course, but I knew that I knew Archer's reputation. I knew the reputation as one of the elite firms in the state.
00:14:15
Speaker
And I knew people who worked there and I really wanted to work there. So I told them, look, I don't know anything about environmental law, but I do know how to litigate cases. And if you think that's helpful, then I would love to work here. And they bought it and they hired me and that was 21 years ago. I've grown to really, really love environmental law. I think it's a complicated, sophisticated practice that keeps me entertained. It's never boring. It's always growing.
00:14:44
Speaker
There's scientific elements to it. I really enjoy it. But going into it, I didn't have a burning desire to do it, if that makes any sense.
00:14:53
Speaker
Absolutely. And, you know, I think one of the things, again, that we sort of talk or I talk to students about a lot is that, you know, what you come into law school thinking that you're going to do isn't necessarily what you're going to end up doing. And what you do immediately out of law school isn't necessarily where you're going to be, you know, 20 years after, right, that opportunities come along.
00:15:14
Speaker
And it's good to say yes to opportunity and sort of see, you know, where things take you. So I think that's a really good lesson in terms of thinking about how you build a career. But there are two pieces in there that I really want to dig down into a little bit more. So one is, you know, oftentimes students will say to us, oh, I want to practice health law or I want to practice environmental law or I want to practice, you know, X law. And then when you say to them, well, you know, what do environmental lawyers do?
00:15:44
Speaker
they sort of get this glazed look in their eyes, right? So they have this practice area but no real sense of what it looks like to do that work. So I'd love to talk to you about that. And then the other thing that I really want to talk to you about, you know, we talk all the time about how much settlement goes on, right? That a lot of lawyers, you know, most of their work is going to be settling cases.
00:16:06
Speaker
and not actually doing trials. So I like to talk to people who are litigation attorneys and who are doing trials about what that experience is like, because I think that so many people get the impression now that the only people who go into court are maybe prosecutors and public defenders and family law or those folks, but that it's not sort of the natural thing that people do anymore, which I think is
00:16:36
Speaker
is obviously not always true. So which one would you rather talk about first, the litigation piece or environmental law? Yeah, that environmental piece, the first piece is an easy one. I can get right into that quickly. You're absolutely right. When you're coming into law school, the vast majority, or in law school, the vast majority of law students don't really have a clue what it means.
00:17:00
Speaker
Clue number one, in the environmental context, sometimes I'll tell people that I do environmental law, and they'll say, oh, well, thank you for everything you're doing for the planet. And you say, you don't have this image that environmental lawyers are standing in a river holding a fish, trying to, you know, skimming for garbage. But that's not at all what environmental law is in practice. And the only substitute for that is to go out and get experience. The experience is literally invaluable.
00:17:28
Speaker
not only to figure out what you want to do, but figure out what you don't want to do. For example, I think I told you that I went through a phase where I wanted to be a tax attorney. Well, I did an internship one semester at Rutgers with the IRS. They were wonderful. They treated me well. The work was interesting, but I came out of it saying, this is not what I want to do.
00:17:52
Speaker
could have saved me decades worth of working in that field. So you just, you need that experience even if it's, it doesn't matter what they're paying you, just know that you're putting something on your resume that shows that you continue to progress as a lawyer, as a prospective lawyer and moving the ball forward and being able to know what you want and what you don't want is really critical. And so, you know, turning to the other question,
00:18:20
Speaker
the issue of settlements and trials. So first of all, it's even rarer to try cases in the environmental world because the cases, we have less cases than some other types of practitioners, but our cases are bigger and they last longer. I got one case with a docket number from 2007 that was filed and it's still going on today. And when they do get tried, they are lengthy trials. The last trial I had took six months.
00:18:47
Speaker
Of being on my feet in the courtroom and the one before that was five months And so and that's a long time to be away from your family. Yeah the So they they come They don't come very often those kinds of trials, but there are plenty of lawyers who are trying cases every day prosecutors criminal defenders criminal defense attorneys family law attorneys personal injury attorneys certain types of personal injury attorneys landlord tenant there there's a lot there are a lot of
00:19:17
Speaker
areas that get into court day in and day out, and there's no substitute for that kind of courtroom experience. JAG attorneys, people in the military, they're on their feet constantly. But just because you're not trying cases to conclusion doesn't mean there aren't other types of advocacy. Like you can do things like Daubert hearings, Rule 104 evidentiary hearings, arguing motions, those kinds of things. They're equally valuable being on your feet in front of a judge.
00:19:47
Speaker
So yes, they're still not common and settlement is still the preferred outcome for everybody. I like to say if a case is proceeding to trial, then one or both lawyers are doing something wrong. Because if it's a well litigated case on both sides, then there's always room for compromise. It's just questioning, making sure your clients understand that.
00:20:13
Speaker
If somebody has positioned the case in a way that makes it impossible to settle, then somebody is making a mistake. Someone's not valuing it correctly. Someone's not managing the client's expectations correctly. And that's often what leads to trial. Or one side has nothing to lose. And that's a shame. But good lawyers tend to settle cases much more often than try them.
Firm Culture and Career Growth
00:20:40
Speaker
I want to talk some about Archer and Greiner and where you've been for a very long time. You're a partner there. And obviously, at Rutgers Law, we have a really great relationship with Archer. You all have been amazingly good to us. And lots of Rutgers Law folks end up at Archer, which is really great.
00:21:00
Speaker
You know, one of the things that I particularly like about Archer is it feels like a really good place for young lawyers, right? A place where you can, you know, build a career where you can be supported and where you can be mentored. And that is, that's not true of all law firms, right? There has to be a particular kind of commitment.
00:21:24
Speaker
to what kind of law firm that you want to be. So I would love to talk a little bit about kind of law firm culture, right? And how do you build a culture where young lawyers can be successful, but also a culture, and I know that this is something that is equally as important to you, where lawyers from a lot of different backgrounds, diverse lawyers, lawyers of color, women,
00:21:49
Speaker
can be successful, right? Because some of the concerns that we have are, you know, you look at our profession and our profession, unfortunately, really lacks racial diversity. So, you know, how do we build spaces where young lawyers feel supported and where lawyers from a whole range of, you know, races and genders and sexual orientations feel like they can be successful? Right. Well, and there's no perfect answer. We're all
00:22:20
Speaker
struggling to do what we can to rectify those inequities. And let me be frank right at the outset. Archer, I think, does a good job in these areas, but we don't do a perfect job. We have a ways to go still. I was very blessed this year to have the support of my colleagues. They elected me to the firm's board of directors. And that was a very proud moment for me
00:22:48
Speaker
But it also allows me to bring my perspective and my background to bear whenever we're making decisions as leaders at the firm. Backing up a second, I think the most important thing you need to do for, I'm going to talk about associates for a minute, for associates in particular, and to cultivate that long-term relationship and investment is you've got to make it clear that there's a future for them. The second that associate thinks that
00:23:18
Speaker
there's no more room to move up, then they're gonna be unhappy. But if that associate thinks that there's a path forward for them, they can make partner, they can get equity, they can manage the firm someday, that the firm is invested both, not only financially, but with sweat equity, they're invested in you, and they believe in you. If they believe that, then the rest of the stuff matters a lot less, regardless of the person's background.
00:23:49
Speaker
So that, to me, is the most important factor. But all the rest of the issues helping people to feel at home, the most important factor, you've got to have support from the top at the firm. Your leaders at the firm have to buy in. And if you do that, then you're able to kind of push down the values and mission
00:24:15
Speaker
goals to other leaders in the firm, to the practice group chairs, to departmental heads, those kinds of things. And so that's, to me, if you don't have that, you're never going to build that kind of atmosphere from the ground up, you got to build it from top down. And, you know, it's not enough to simply hire diverse
00:24:41
Speaker
summer clerk classes to hire entry-level lawyers that are diverse, where you end up with good diversity at the lowest levels, but then it doesn't percolate up. Or if it does, it's a nine-year lead time or a 20-year lead time to get there. That's great that you're making those kinds of investments in diverse young legal talent, but
00:25:08
Speaker
We know the attrition rates are high. You're not going to see a significant chunk of those people still with the firm 30 years from now. That's just not realistic in our community. So you've got to also build an environment of diverse leadership through lateral hiring. There's no substitute to seeing somebody who looks like you with a similar background in a leadership position.
00:25:38
Speaker
that you can go to to commiserate with or confide in, or even just to feel like you're where you ought to be, that there's plenty of black and brown people walking around that just makes you feel like America, instead of some strange land that you walk into every morning. So those are some of the things that I think, they're not at the micro level, they're at the macro level, they're big picture items,
00:26:07
Speaker
If you don't have those things, it makes everything else a lot more difficult.
Diverse Leadership and Mentorship
00:26:12
Speaker
I talk to a lot of law firms, especially now that I'm president of HMBA, and they ask me these questions like, what can we do better to retain our diverse lawyers? What they're really looking for is something easy. They want to hear, well, if you do more events for Hispanic Heritage Month, then they'll be happier. But it's not.
00:26:35
Speaker
It's important to recognize and celebrate our differences, but the real path forward is make sure that you've got people that are coming from the same background, that they don't feel isolated, that you've got leadership that supports and that that person sees themselves as a leader going forward with the firm. They have to feel invested in the firm.
00:26:59
Speaker
Right. Yeah. They have to feel invested in the firm and they have to feel like the firm is invested in them as well. Exactly. Exactly right. So one of the things that you were sort of talking about there is, you know, the importance of representation. And, you know, we've definitely had that experience here where we have
00:27:18
Speaker
students who come and say, you know, I've never met a lawyer before I came here. I never met a Black person or a Latinx person who was a lawyer before I came here. Right. And there's something very something very powerful about seeing somebody in a role who looks like you and thinking, oh, right. Like that's a thing that I could do. It's not something that is closed off for me. So I think that that representation piece is really important.
00:27:44
Speaker
Another piece that I think is really important is the mentoring piece and the sort of sponsor or champion kind of piece. And that's another thing where I think young lawyers often sort of have questions about
00:28:02
Speaker
How do I build a mentoring relationship? Who do I look for to be a mentor? Do I wait for somebody to come to me or do I reach out to people? Is there a difference between somebody who is a mentor who's a couple years older than you versus somebody who's been at the firm for 10 years? So if we could talk a little bit about creating those kinds of relationships, which I think are
00:28:30
Speaker
so critical to the success of lawyers, right? Who were the people who are helping you, you know, sort of, you know, right in there with you and helping you? And also the people who, when you're not in the room, are saying great things about you to help you rise. Yeah. And exactly, you said it exactly correctly. I see these as two different things. There's mentorship and then there's sponsorship.
00:28:59
Speaker
both really critically important. When it comes to mentorship, some people are going to be really good at it. Some people are going to be lousy at it. And there's formal mentorship where you have someone who's specifically assigned to be someone's mentor by some kind of administrator. And there's informal mentorship, relationships that crop up as a part of your growth in the legal industry. And for example, at Archer, we have a formal mentoring
00:29:29
Speaker
system where we assign a formal mentor, capital M, to each law student. And sometimes it's more than one. And that works sometimes because sometimes they're good at it. And that doesn't work other times because the person is just not as good at being a mentor. They're a little more of an odd duck. And so when that happens, you have to stay vigilant and ask people to be honest and be able to change that up from an administration standpoint.
00:29:59
Speaker
If you are a young lawyer beginning your legal career, this is my own personal opinion, walking around saying, and I say this tongue in cheek, saying, will you be my mentor? Will you be my mentor? You can't over control of that. What you should be doing is trying to
00:30:23
Speaker
keep up your end of the bargain to create relationships with people. Some people are going to have a natural relationship with you. Some people aren't. For example, at my firm, I could think of multiple people, two people who didn't look like me, didn't have the same background I did, but we just got along and they ended up becoming my personal mentors.
00:30:44
Speaker
over time, and I didn't go out saying, you know, I want this person to be my mentor. You have to, you've just got to be a little bit vulnerable and generate those relationships organically as you go. As for sponsorship, there is absolutely no substitute for having a godfather or godmother, you know, in Spanish, a patrino or patrina, right? You need somebody who, when the door's closed, what are they saying, Hamilton, in the room where it happened? You need somebody in that room
00:31:13
Speaker
to advocate for you. And there's no substitute for that. And that is whether you're dealing with compensation, whether you're dealing with promotion, elevation to partner or shareholder, you need to have that person. Hard work alone is not going to get that for you. So the first thing you got to do is you got to figure out who's in that room. Who are the people that are in that room? Who's on the board of directors? Who's on the personnel committee? And who's not?
00:31:43
Speaker
and make sure that they know you and those kinds of sponsorships can develop. I've seen it. I've seen it where you get two equally spectacular associates. One person has somebody in that room saying, you need to pay attention to this person. And the other person saying is not there. And so they go voiceless and it's a big difference. And look, again, you can't force that if either the person loves you
00:32:10
Speaker
and works with you and is willing to put their own reputation on the line, or they don't know you that well, in which case they won't. You've just got to grow those and be that kind of likable person to people who have those positions. Part of what you said that I think is so important is that you can do really, really, really good work, and that might not be enough, right? That there has to be
00:32:39
Speaker
um, some sort of, you know, kind of interpersonal strategy that is a part of being successful, um, as well. And I do think that there are, you know, again, we have students who come here who are first gen, we actually started a couple of years ago in our career development, sort of doing field trips to law firms.
00:32:58
Speaker
Right? Because we have folks who had never been in a law firm before, and it can be a really intimidating environment. You know, if you haven't done that work before, if you haven't been in that space before, you know, law firms can feel very formal. They can feel like places that have a lot of rules, you know, that you don't know about. And so, you know, it's not enough to sort of put your head down and kind of hope for the best. It's not. You know, and that's
00:33:28
Speaker
I don't know if that's sad or not, but it may be. It doesn't matter where you work. You could be at the public defender's office. You could be at Greenpeace. You could be at Archer and Griner. Interpersonal relationships are part of what you need to grow and get promoted. And that creates one of the obstacles for young lawyers of color who are coming into an environment where they don't have many of their peers
00:33:59
Speaker
It's a cultural, just feeling comfort level thing. One story, we tease this person all the time. There's a young law student at the time who was working at a big law firm in New Jersey, I'll keep things anonymous.
00:34:16
Speaker
going to a law firm event. They were going to take a chartered bus and do something. And she offered to bring bootleg DVDs of movies that they could all watch. And she was saying, these are in the theaters right now. She grew up in Elizabeth. This is what she's used to. And the partners were looking at each other like, wait, is she really saying that we're going to pirate movies on our bus ride to the Supreme Court? But that's the kind of thing
00:34:46
Speaker
You just have to know exactly how to relate to people. And those people might be different than you. Maybe they're golfers with ducks, portraits of ducks on their office walls, and you've got to be able to make those connections. Yeah. And then on the other side of that, right, of that sort of mentoring and sponsorship relationship, particularly, as you say, for
00:35:10
Speaker
folks who are partners, who are women or people of color, and there tend to be very small groups of those people is the, I was gonna say burden, but burden maybe is not the right word to use, but the energy and effort that often goes into trying to be a mentor for a lot of people because there are so few of you in these positions
00:35:40
Speaker
And I wonder if you have any thoughts about, you know, how can people navigate that experience? Because I think for a lot of us, once you get to a certain point, you want to be able to bring people with you. You want to be able to lift other folks up.
00:35:56
Speaker
But you're also trying to do all of your work. And so there's a lot that can be on a person's plate. And I wonder if that is something, one, that you've had to juggle, and two, what's your advice to people who find themselves in that position? So I'm going to have a little bit of a different perspective on this. Of course, I find myself in that position, especially now that I'm HMBA president. I get emails from law students across the country every single day.
00:36:26
Speaker
and phone calls. And I don't think it's a burden. I think it's an obligation to play that role. I'm speaking now from my own personal experience. The vast majority of the lawyers, the diverse lawyers that I interact with have similar stories to mind. They've overcome certain hurdles that we've discussed, the cultural differences, the adversity,
00:36:54
Speaker
along the way, trying to fit in, not knowing so much that those lawyers tend to be driven by a passion to give back. And I can't tell you that I've ever had an interaction, especially with a diverse lawyer who said, too many young, diverse lawyers are coming to me asking me things. No, it's never been a problem. And we make time for those interactions because they are
00:37:24
Speaker
priceless. We know how important they are. Yeah, I I have a story. Do you remember who Janet Reno is? Yeah, former Attorney General United States. She came to my high school back when she was the acting district attorney for Dade County in Miami. And she actively discouraged me from from going to law school. And that always stuck with me. And, and so it's a whole story there. But the bottom line is it really left me with an impression that
00:37:53
Speaker
I would never want to be in a position where I can offer anything but support for somebody who's in that position. I will always be there to support and return that phone call if I can. So I don't see it as a burden. I don't see it. If you don't have the time to mentor these people, then maybe you've got too much other things going on in different arenas that are preventing you from doing it. The vast majority of lawyers
00:38:22
Speaker
have not voiced that problem. It's always the opposite. It's like, I wish so and so would reach out to me. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I want to, you talked about the HNBA there, and I want to talk about that as well. Again, sort of going back to what we were talking about earlier, where you were sort of saying, as law students, it's useful to join some of these affinity organizations for lawyers.
00:38:47
Speaker
You know, there are lots of lawyers who, once they get out of law school, don't involve themselves with the State Bar Association, don't involve themselves with affinity groups like the Hispanic National Bar Association. So what's the pitch, right? I mean, what do you say to people who say, why would I want to waste my time with that? What are the benefits that come from having that kind of engagement?
Engaging with Bar Associations and Diversity in Judiciary
00:39:13
Speaker
Sure. And this goes for anything.
00:39:14
Speaker
whether we're talking about the National Bar, Hispanic National Bar, Garden State Bar, whatever it may be, New Jersey State Bar, the ability to interact with other lawyers and build your network is so critical to our jobs that being able to be part of an organization that allows you that opportunity is really important.
00:39:44
Speaker
Nobody's going to show up at an event, meet somebody for the first time, and expect to get business or job referrals. You've got to develop relationships with people and see them on multiple occasions and maybe work on projects together. And that's how those bonds get generated. And a lot of my best referral sources have been generated from those kinds of opportunities.
00:40:13
Speaker
And I truly believe this. I think it gives people motivation that they can't get elsewhere, especially in these COVID times when everybody's burnt out and zoomed out. What the psychiatrists say is find something that fills you with passion, something that infuses you and gives you motivation and pursue it. And places like the Hispanic National Bar Association, I mean, we're raising money for law students, we're advocating
00:40:44
Speaker
issues that are important to our community, whether it's immigration or voting rights or whatever it may be. We're expanding the pipeline and showing grade school students, high school students, college students, what Latino lawyers look like. And we're going into the community. We're doing community education initiatives. Those are the kinds of things that really kind of inspire me.
00:41:09
Speaker
and make me feel impassioned to do what I do, and they enrich your life. And so whatever it is, you've got to find, going to your job every single day, even if it's the best job in the world and you love it, you need something more to keep you happy. So that's my pitch. It's good for business. It's good for your professional career, but it's also good for the soul.
00:41:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So I want to ask you one last question that I think encapsulates some of the things that we've been talking about. So you published a piece in November 2020 about diversity and the judiciary.
00:41:50
Speaker
And in particular, at that point, then President Trump had appointed huge numbers of judges to the federal bench. And you were making the push of how important it is, not just to make sure that there aren't a bunch of empty spots, but to make sure that as we're filling those spots, we're thinking about diversity.
00:42:15
Speaker
You know, President Biden and his administration, you know, they're they're appointing a lot of people to the bench right now. And I'm curious to hear from you about one, whether you think, you know, that the kind of work that that President Biden and his administration are doing right now, is that sort of sufficient?
00:42:34
Speaker
in terms of diversifying the bench. And then the second piece is, we always sort of talk about the value of diversity, but what are some of the things that you think are particularly valuable about having a racially diverse and diverse on multiple levels judiciary? Why does it matter so much? I'm going to start, if you don't mind, I'll start with that latter part of the question and then
00:43:00
Speaker
to the first part. So this is an issue that I'm very passionate about. The diversity of the judiciary is one of my tentpole items. I think about it every day. There's no question. I think scientists will agree that if you bring people together who have a diverse perspective, different perspectives, it's going to lead to better decision-making.
00:43:23
Speaker
If you have everybody, they're monolithic, they come from the same upbringing, same gender, whatever it may be, they're just not going to be as thoughtful about whatever issue. So diverse groups of people lead to better results, period. But when you're dealing with the justice system, for all the systemic reasons that we don't need to get into, there's a significant number of people who are black or brown, Asian,
00:43:51
Speaker
gay who are coming through the legal system. And the legal system has a credibility problem. If the people don't have faith that they're going to see justice in the legal system, then they're going to undermine it. They're not going to support it. And having somebody on the bench who comes from a similar background
00:44:17
Speaker
gives it credibility, gives it more credibility. And not every judge has to be diverse. Diverse includes non-diverse people, right? You've got to have a variety of people from different perspectives. But America looks a certain way. It has a certain demographic array nationwide, but the judiciary looks a different way. And so especially when you're dealing with things like language barriers and cultural differences, certain things might be obvious
00:44:47
Speaker
to people with similar backgrounds that aren't so obvious to others. And so it just leads to a better judiciary, the stronger judiciary. And I'm willing to bet there's not a single judge who wouldn't agree with that. So that's the goal. The goal is to get the judiciary to look somewhere in the ballpark of what America looks like, what New Jersey looks like, what Pennsylvania looks like, and what we're not there.
00:45:16
Speaker
Obviously, I'm not going to mince words. The Trump administration was horrific for appointing people of color to the bench. There's never been an administration like it in modern times. The Biden administration is a lot better, and I'm going to give them some credit. They've done a good job of reaching out to groups who are invested on this issue with the Hispanic National Bar Association. We have calls with the White House frequently, but they've not been perfect.
00:45:45
Speaker
they've been doing a very good job of appointing diverse lawyers to the bench. But when it comes to Latino lawyers, I would give them a C minus. So, you know, the Latino lawyers, Latinos, we are about 5% of the legal profession, we are 20% of the country and we're on pace to be 25% of the country. That's one out of every four. And
00:46:10
Speaker
Latinos have been appointed to the bench in the Biden administration at a slower rate than almost any other ethnic group. And so we're actually losing ground instead of gaining ground. And the White House knows we're not happy about it. And a lot of the problem, believe it or not, is from the United States senators. There are some senators who've been really good about this. Senator Padilla out in California has been very transparent about his process. Senator Schumer in New York has been very good
00:46:38
Speaker
about appointing people to the Second Circuit, people of color. But other senators, who I will not name on this packet, have been very secretive, and the results have been terrible. There are states where there's no reason why we shouldn't be appointing Latino people to the bench. States like Texas, New Mexico, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, I mean, we should be
00:47:05
Speaker
We have very robust Latino populations and we need to do better. So it's a complicated process and there are many culpable parties there. We're doing better, but we're not doing good enough in my opinion. The Republicans under the Trump administration, they rejected the blue slip process, the process whereby the home state senator can veto the candidate coming from their state. So they could just force it through. If the Senate would approve it,
00:47:35
Speaker
Then they could just force it through the Biden White House in I guess in an interest of Adhering to the to the rules. They are still abiding by the blue slip process which in states where you have Republican senators They're not moving Candidates because of that they have to those those Republican senators get a seat table in a dialogue So it's it's a bit of a one It shouldn't be a Republican Democrat issue because there are people of color on in both parties, right?
00:48:05
Speaker
But the process, you've got one administration that's trying to diversify the bench, but they're hamstringing themselves by abiding by rules that the other side doesn't have to follow. And so that's one of several in the weeds examples where we're losing ground. There's that larger sort of frustration about being a party that plays by the rules.
00:48:28
Speaker
who is working with a party that throws out the rules whenever it's convenient. And the party can't get out of its own way sometimes. You've got infighting within the party, which you've got issues like this.
00:48:44
Speaker
that shouldn't be should be no-brainers and we just can't move as quickly as we need to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I feel like we've touched on so many things and it's been really terrific just to have this conversation and to learn a little bit more about you. And my hope is that we're going to have either current students or potential students who
00:49:11
Speaker
are listening to this who say to themselves, wow, that could be me, right? I hope so. Yeah. I hope so. And I'll say, going back to the juggling mentees and people reaching out, if anybody ever wants to reach out to me or just to speak with me about their own experience or their own future, I'm certainly available and happy to do that. We will let them know. Thank you, Dean. This is a lot of fun. Thank you for inviting me. Absolutely. Thank you for being here.
00:49:40
Speaker
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