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S4E02: Starting Your Own Law Firm, with Kiomeiry Csepes RLAW'13
12 Plays2 years ago
Kiomeiry Csepes RLAW'13 joins Co-Dean Kimberly Mutcherson to share about what it was like starting a law firm, the importance of representation beyond affinity groups, and the challenges of owning a business at the start of the COVID-19 pandemic.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Production Manager: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction and Casey's Background
00:00:02
Speaker
My name is Kim Mutterson. I'm the co-dean of Rutgers Law School on the Camden campus, and this is the power of attorney. This is another episode where I get to talk to one of our absolutely fabulous alums, who I've wanted to talk to on this podcast for a while. And actually, I'm going to tell you this, Casey, in front of all of these people. The primary reason why I wanted to have you on the podcast is so I could hear you say your name out loud.
00:00:30
Speaker
because I've never called you anything other than Casey. So say it out loud for everybody, and then we'll all know how to say it properly. First, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan of the podcast. I do listen. And it is Keo Mady is the first name, and the last name is Chayfish. Chayfish. See, that's- I'm Trister, I know. That is not how I've ever said it.
00:00:53
Speaker
So thank you for that. I'm going to keep calling you Casey because that's how we roll with each other.
Journey to Law Career
00:00:59
Speaker
So I am so excited to have a conversation with you about all sorts of bits and pieces, including what it's like to be a woman who started your own law firm, which I always think is just such a brave thing to do on a lot of levels. But let's start at the beginning, which is where I start with everybody.
00:01:17
Speaker
which is what is your origin story? There are all these things that you could have done in the world and ultimately you decided to become a lawyer. So what was it that drew you to the law? So I'm one of those people or attorneys who knew since they were little that they wanted to be an attorney. So when my mom and I came from Puerto Rico to New Jersey, she married my dad who would later adopt me.
00:01:44
Speaker
And we ended up renting out this really small apartment in New Brunswick. It was an attic. And on the first floor was an attorney. So he owned the building. He lived on the second floor and he rented the attic to us. And I was about eight years old and my mom didn't know any English. And I would see my parents whenever they would get like something in the mail.
00:02:04
Speaker
always go downstairs to this man and ask, what is this? How does it affect us? And even family members. So I would see how this man had so much power and was able to help my family through so many things. And I was like, I want to do that. What is he? I want to be what he is because I want to help in that way. And so that was my focus since then. I just said, I want to go to law school. I want to be an attorney.
First Steps in Legal Field
00:02:30
Speaker
And then when I graduated high school, I actually started attending community college and started working at a factory. Just to make some money to help me get through, you know, school because I was paying for it on my own.
00:02:43
Speaker
And actually, you know, well, that's a whole other story. But definitely a lot of lessons learned from working at a factory. And it was one of those things I was like putting alarm stickers on boxes at an assembly line. So it was like, wow, box and I'm just like, I know, I definitely don't want to do that. Yes, I need to get out of here. Um, so I what I did was I made a resume, I went to New Brunswick. And I went to every
00:03:08
Speaker
law office I could find and I was like just giving them my resume like fresh out of high school like please hire me I want to know I want to be in the environment like I just want to see what it's like you know um and so I did that for a while and then my mom ended up calling me one day she works as a social worker in the county and so she was like hey you know
00:03:27
Speaker
I know someone who knows someone, so another lesson, power of networking, right? Absolutely, yes. Who knows the municipal prosecutor and he's looking for like a secretary for his private office. Do you wanna try? And I was like, yes, please, yes. Oh my God, this factory. And so that's how I started. I started working as a secretary for the municipal prosecutor, his private office. And he is now,
00:03:54
Speaker
municipal court judge who refers cases to me. Wow. I know it's crazy when I think about it. So how old were you when you started working with him? What did you say? 18. Wow. Making $6 an hour.
00:04:11
Speaker
We won't even talk about that. I know. I learned so much. He was very old school, so he was the type that would be like, here's the file. I knew nothing, right? Like, here's a file. He had, like, all the old school books. He's like, I need this then. Go figure it out. Wow. Yeah, it was crazy. What an amazing experience, though, right? I mean, did that sort of leave you feeling like, yes, this is where I want to be. This is what I want to do. Yeah, yeah.
00:04:38
Speaker
especially the cases he was taking, I could tell, like, it was just so crazy to me, mind boggling, like, how whatever, you know, you do have such an impact on the trajectory of these people's lives. Like, it really does, you know? And I will forever, he did a couple of, like, DYPHUS cases, and I still, to this day, they haunt me. It was something that also gave me, like, the lessons, like, I definitely know I don't want to do that type of work. But I want to be in, like, in this field.
00:05:07
Speaker
Yeah. So for folks listening outside of New Jersey, DIFUS is the Child Protective Services here in New Jersey. There's something about Child Protective Services where they like to just change their names periodically, right? Because if that makes them a whole new agency. So yeah, DIFUS has had multiple names around here. But yeah, those cases are really hard, I think, in general, right?
Balancing Work and Education
00:05:31
Speaker
And so there are lots of folks who
00:05:33
Speaker
They think they're really into family law and then they start doing some of that stuff and it's like, yeah, I'm okay. I'm going to leave that for somebody else, definitely. So you started working with this attorney. You had done some community college. Ultimately, you ended up at Rutgers, New Brunswick. And so did you continue to work with this attorney all through college?
00:05:54
Speaker
So I actually, you know, like I said, I was only making six bucks an hour there. So I lose that. And he even says it to the state because we're friends. You know, he was like, I was cheap. I was too cheap. I wish I kept you. But so I actually I was very fortunate. And I, you know, I do believe like I'm a hustler. So I just use that, you know, went to another firm and then I use that and went to another firm. And I actually what ended up happening is that I started earning really well.
00:06:21
Speaker
And so I kind of put my education on the back burner and I stopped. So I only had an associates for a very long time. And then you get to that point where you're like, if I don't do this now, it's never gonna happen. Like I need it to go back to school. So that's what I
Starting a Law Firm
00:06:39
Speaker
did. I don't even remember. So I graduated 2013. So I started, I went to Rutgers University in New Brunswick to finish my bachelor's probably around 2010.
00:06:49
Speaker
And then from there went straight to law school. But I had like a good chunk of years where I was just working, which turned out well, you know, because I do think that those experiences helped me be able to open my own law firm after I graduated right away. I would not, I hear a lot of law students say that they want to do that. And I definitely would not suggest doing that right out of law school. If you don't have, you know, that foundation, I wouldn't do it if I hadn't worked as a paralegal for all those years.
00:07:18
Speaker
Well, I definitely want to talk to you about your experience as a woman, a woman of color, owning your own law firm. But I want to talk a little bit about law school first, in large part because you're a person who was not a traditional law student, right? You weren't coming a year
00:07:38
Speaker
right out of undergrad, you weren't, you know, 21 years old, you had had significant life experience and significant work experience. So what do you feel like that gave to you, right? As a law student, having had, you know, those kinds of experiences before you actually walked into a law school classroom?
00:08:00
Speaker
I think more than anything, it gave me the like the mentality like I'm not here to play play games, even super challenging, like I had a goal in mind, you know, and I just wanted to get in and out. That first year was very challenging, and I'll speak very openly about it. I didn't do so well my first year.
00:08:19
Speaker
And I think it's important to talk about that. I was put on academic probation. A lot of law students come in and I found out while I was in it that a lot of people were in the same situation, but everyone's scared to discuss this.
00:08:33
Speaker
And so I was fighting for my life. I was like, no, you can't kick me out. This is what I want to do. I'm here for it. What do I need to do to do better? So it was very challenging, but having work, having kids. I was a single mom with two kids, three and four years old. I couldn't afford to not get through it. So it absolutely gave me that. And different perspectives. When you're reading certain cases, I think they're more real to you.
00:09:02
Speaker
versus just this abstract case that you're reading about, people being taken advantage of or accidents. In almost every class, you really, really connect to what these people were going through. So I think that was another thing that I had gained from that experience.
00:09:18
Speaker
Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that you were on academic probation and that that first year was really difficult for you. Because I think that there are a lot of folks who come into law school, whether it's Rutgers or another law school, who are really accustomed to being successful. And then you walk into this space where, one, everybody is really accustomed to being successful. Even if that doesn't make them super competitive, there are still people who really, really want to do well and who are willing to work really hard.
00:09:48
Speaker
to do well. And when you're working really hard to do well and you don't have the outcome that you are looking for, it can be incredibly demoralizing, I think. So I wonder if you could share, you know, maybe just some words of uplift. So what would you say to those folks who are kind of, you know, maybe thinking to themselves, is this for me? Should I even be here? Right. I would definitely say don't give up. And I've had these discussions, like, as you know, I do often do the
00:10:17
Speaker
through the MSP program, the mentorships, you know? And I spoke to a lot of students who have been in that boat, and they're going through that. And I tell them, like, look at me, like, I did it. I went through it. You know, it wasn't easy. But if this is really what you want, then it's worth, you know, fighting for. Learn how you, I think that was one of the things I had to do was learn how I studied, you know, like what worked for me. I was hearing everybody else the way that they studied. And, you know, I tried to do that. And that's just not,
00:10:46
Speaker
It didn't work for me. The study, I couldn't do that. I just was at a different pace, but you go, you know, with the mentality, everybody does that. You have to find a study group and you have to do these outlines. So that's what I've told some of my mentees also, like learn what works for you. And another big thing, and I think I find that more with minorities is, and I don't know how to phrase this, but sometimes you look at law school as like this, this big, like,
00:11:12
Speaker
I'm not monster, but it's just like this thing where you feel like you don't belong, right? And they don't know how to infiltrate it. And so one thing I wish I had done was ask for help more, like reach out to my professors. Like they are there. They are open. They love it when you go talk to them. But I just looked at them like I couldn't reach them. You know what I mean?
00:11:33
Speaker
So that's one thing I absolutely ask for help. Don't be scared to ask for help, you know? Yeah, that is that is such a powerful message. And I think that sometimes students see asking for help as a sort of display of weakness. And and students often think, well, everybody else is getting it, which is like 99 percent of the time. Not true. Right. There are other people who are struggling as well. And I always say that office hours are often the loneliest hours of the week for professors. People don't come and talk to us and we're like, hello.
00:12:02
Speaker
And sometimes I also think it's just even being able to sit just across from the professor, not in a classroom setting, can sometimes help you kind of settle down and not feel so intimidated. And there's real value in that. So I think that's a terrific, terrific piece of advice.
00:12:18
Speaker
So you went through law school, you had that struggle in your first year, you were like, okay, gotta get it together, which you did, obviously. Went on the South African Con Law trip with me at one point, which was so fantastic, and I'm so glad that you were able to take that trip with us. But then you graduated from law school.
00:12:38
Speaker
And it was time to to be a lawyer. Right. Right. So I wonder, I mean, obviously you ended up opening up your own law firm, but is that what the plan was from the beginning to eventually open your own firm? Yeah, it was. That was my purpose. Working as a paralegal, I was able to see like different types of law offices. I worked for like mid-size. I worked for solo.
00:12:59
Speaker
And I just, I knew I didn't want to work for anybody. I was like, I want to be my home boss. I want the flexibility. You know, I want to do what I want to do, take the cases that I want.
00:13:10
Speaker
So I did. I knew from day one, this is what I'm coming here for, getting my degree and opening up my own shop. Yeah. It must be amazing to see your name on this business that's thriving and where you get to really decide the direction and how you're going to do what you're going to do. And it feels like it takes an enormous amount of
00:13:31
Speaker
belief and faith in yourself to step out like that. Could you talk about sort of, you know, what it is that you think gave you that sense of this is 100% something that I can do because I don't feel like I could do it, right? So I think it's really impressive when students step out like that. And how many years out were you when you started your firm? I started right away. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay.
00:13:57
Speaker
Right. So even more impressive. And again, right, like you were older, you had worked in a bunch of firms, but still it's a big deal to start your own business, whether it's a law firm or something else. So what gave you that sense of fortitude that this is a thing you could do? I mean, it was definitely nerve wracking. And I think I had like $3,500 to my name when I started, because that's like the number one question I get asked is like, how much money do you need?
00:14:24
Speaker
So I was like working off my cell phone and you know, you talk to other, you talk to, that's what I did. And I think that's like a great tip is like,
00:14:32
Speaker
go talk to other people that have done it, right? Like, go talk to solo practitioners, go talk to firm partners. And like, how did you do it? How did you start? What tools do I need? And I did that. So I had like my cell phone with like a Google business number running through it. And, you know, I was printing my own letterhead and using my laptop. I mean, it was a lot of hustling in the beginning, for sure.
00:14:55
Speaker
It was very nerve wracking. I was all on my own. And that's another aspect of it is like, you know, it's your name now. That's all that letter and on those pleadings and before that judge. So it's a huge responsibility. And again, that's why I would never tell anyone to do this unless they had the experience, you know, an exposure to it. But I think it was just like, I knew that that's what I wanted. And I was going to make it work. Some way, somehow, like I was going to make it work.
00:15:24
Speaker
And like you said, you know, seeing my name, I think that was one of the, probably the coolest things in that first year was like printing out a letter and like signing my name and see, I'm like, you know, that, it felt good. It felt good. And I think that feeling, it was like, I can do this, you know, I can, I can definitely do this. I have a good support system. So.
00:15:42
Speaker
Let's see what happens. And the people who you went to, to ask them for advice, like I've talked to alums before who say, you know, when I was trying to figure out, you know, what are the things that I need to know in my practice area? One person in particular, I remember who said, who's a criminal defense attorney and said, I would sit in the back of courtrooms and I would just watch lawyers, right? And see how they interacted with the judges.
00:16:06
Speaker
And then she basically accosted a couple of them and was like, you are gonna be my mentor, right? I like what you do and I like how you do it. And I want you to be helpful to me, which also takes a certain level of gumption, right? So how did you go about figuring out, okay, here are the people who are gonna be, maybe someone I have a casual conversation with versus somebody who I really want to connect with them, have a relationship with them.
00:16:34
Speaker
and really use them as a mentor over time. So I would say there was two things. Number one, I was still while in law school working as a paralegal. So I was working for an attorney in Trenton who had his own solo practice, and he rented out another office to another attorney to practice immigration law. And so they both sort of used me as their paralegal to research things, draft things,
00:17:00
Speaker
I would often go to court with them. And even if it wasn't what I was going to be doing, because of the same reason that you stated, like, I just want to be in the court, look at people. And I was very, you know, fortunate and, you know, perhaps it was a mutual respect. But my, you know, the attorney I was working for, he always spoke so highly of me. And to this day, I appreciate him, you know, he would always introduce me like, this is my pretty girl. She's in law school. She's going to be an attorney like, you know, she's great at this, even to judges, you know, in family court and things like that.
00:17:31
Speaker
Um, and so when they knew that I was funny cause I got, he swore me in actually as an attorney. Um, and that same day he sent me to court. Um, so I was like, all right, your surname, you can go.
00:17:43
Speaker
I had both of them kind of like ready for me to be an attorney so they can use me and send me and, you know, so I, to this day, I appreciate that because they fed me work, you know, and so that was, I think, the, you know, the one thing. And then the second thing, which I tell like mentees, law students, anybody is networking. I mean, it is, it's huge in this field. The community is actually really small, you know, it really, truly is. And so I always tell people,
00:18:11
Speaker
join bar associations, you know, and when you can take on leadership roles because you do and don't do it just for the referrals, you know, because you gain so much more, but it is it's huge, you know, you get referrals from those relationships that you make.
00:18:26
Speaker
One of the things that I say every year at orientation to students is your career has started right now, right? Like the people who are in this room with you are people who are going to be practicing law with you and they're going to be your adversaries, they're going to feed you clients, they're going to be
00:18:43
Speaker
the people who say nice things about you when you aren't in the room. And so you really have to think about that reputation that you're building, among others, which I think is so critical. So you open up your practice. And I think one of those pieces that don't always fall in place for people as quickly as it should is that you're running a business.
Choosing Practice Areas
00:19:05
Speaker
You're not just a lawyer, you are a small business owner. So can you talk about that transition? So now you own a business, you have to do all the stuff that's required to make sure that you are set up properly, you have to think about, and as you grow, you have to think about payroll and insurance and benefits, all of this stuff. So what has that been like? And how did you learn all those little things that you needed to do in order to keep your doors open?
00:19:31
Speaker
Right, right. And it's funny because we just did a boot camp with the HBA on the same topic because law school doesn't teach you to be a business owner. So that was definitely, again, me reaching out to other people who have done it, asking different suggestions for different things. And then the second thing, again, is the bar associations have committees, solo and small firm committees. And I highly recommend
00:19:59
Speaker
If you're thinking about it, join those committees. Because what you'll find, I think more so with solo practitioners, we're not in a firm. So we don't get to have team meetings with other attorneys. So the solo firm committee, that's our law firm. It's not competitive. It's one of the greatest groups of people trying to share ideas and how to make business better.
00:20:22
Speaker
And truthfully, I didn't expect, you know, you go into it, I wasn't really mentally like saying I'm going to be a business owner. I was just saying I'm going to open up a law. So it's definitely been a learning curve. And it's it's one of the things I actually enjoy most of that I didn't think I was going to. But like the marketing and you know, trying to negotiate different contracts for insurance and, you know, changing the logo, like you get to be like artistic also, and
00:20:50
Speaker
it's actually, it's been really fun, that aspect of it. Stressful sometimes you know because you're wearing a lot of different hats.
00:21:00
Speaker
But it's definitely the more fun part of the job, I think. Well, let's talk about the law part again as well. So you do immigration law, you do family law. What are some of the other practice areas that you work in? So I just started doing a little bit of real estate, just simple buy, sell real estate. But my main is family law and immigration.
00:21:22
Speaker
And what made you pick those two to drill down on? So with family law, it was one of those things where I kind of just fell into it because when I was working for the firms, that's what I did as a paralegal. So it's what I knew. And it's what I knew that it would, you know, make me money, you know, that I can actually make money off because I knew it, I knew how to do it. With immigration, actually, one of my family members went through removal proceedings and was removed. And I saw like firsthand how that affected my family. And so I,
00:21:50
Speaker
This happened during law school. I knew I want to get into this somehow. I want to help because the laws that were responsible for the removal, it was very unfair. They were very unjust. And there was a lot of people I realized that were in the same situation.
00:22:05
Speaker
So, interestingly, my last year at law school, I became part of the inaugural immigrant justice clinic at Rutgers Law School with Professor Goddess Men. It was the first year they were doing it, and I was like, I want in. I think I even asked you for a letter of recommendation, right? I think. That might be right, yes. South Africa. But, yes, so I was like, I want to get, you know, I want to learn. I want to know about this.
00:22:29
Speaker
Um, so I, we took on, I mean, this is amazing. So we took on a case of two and, uh, two minor girls who were trying to apply for a thing called special immigrant justice clinic. And it was like perfect for me because that particular case actually combines family law and immigration. Um, so in those types of cases, you're seeking the court to give your client custody of a minor who came from another country into the U S.
00:22:56
Speaker
And then you're also asking the judge to make certain findings that are relevant to the immigration law. And so my partner- That sounds complicated. It is complicated. I guess now that I've been doing it so long, it's the same thing that we asked for, but it can be. It can be certain aspects of it. It can be very complicated.
00:23:19
Speaker
So let me just, again, just sort of level set for some folks. So clinics are opportunities for students to basically be lawyers while they're in law school. And our Immigrant Justice Clinic, which is run by Professor Gottesman, who I went to law school with. I don't know if you know that. We went to law school together.
00:23:39
Speaker
does work for people who are seeking status in the United States, maybe they're looking for asylum, and the focus has often been on children and their immigration issues. So you and your partner, right, everybody always works as partners, which I appreciate, right, because you have somebody to lean on, but you and your partner had a particular case, and you said it was for two
00:24:01
Speaker
sisters. Um And so we wen
00:24:10
Speaker
She was a new judge and so she was not familiar with these cases. Yeah. So now I do them and the judges are very familiar with them and they kind of already know and they're focusing on just like the facts, right? Like just the factual aspect of the cases. When I went with Tina, this judge did not know. So she put us on the hot seat and was asking a lot of questions on the law. Like, why are we in family court? What does this case have to do? So, I mean, it was a very, you know, it was a great learning.
00:24:41
Speaker
But you know, we're student lawyers, and like, you know, third year, and we have these girls, they're like, relying on us, and we're looking at each other like, we thought this is gonna be a lot easier than what it was. But um, and I remember the judge even asked us to give her a moment, because it was very, you know, it was a very new thing for her. And she like went back, and I think she was trying to discuss and find out what
00:25:01
Speaker
what to do. And then she actually told us, okay, yo what you've told me, consi going to have to wait for
00:25:15
Speaker
They, we win the case, we get the order, I think a few months later, but that's just the first part of the case. The second case is seeking the actual visa from immigration using this custody order from family court. Got it. Okay. That usually takes like three years. So wow. It's crazy. It's so crazy, but it happens. She, the, the minor daughter, I get a phone call. I'm already graduated, already have my own office. And I get a phone call from the mom saying,
00:25:43
Speaker
Hey, I don't know if you remember me, but no help my daughter. I know. Oh my gosh. I want a student attorney. I want to thank you so much. Like she actually is now a permanent resident. I know. It was like a place.
00:26:00
Speaker
Great feeling. That is amazing. Four years later, they remember. So the Justice Clinic, that's another thing. If law students are listening in, absolutely join clinic. It's a great experience. Totally. Yeah. I graduated law school a long time ago, and I still remember my clinic so vividly. And I remember one particular client so vividly.
00:26:24
Speaker
and still sort of draw on some of the lessons that I learned through that experience, absolutely. So you already sort of had the immigration experience and the family law experience, now you're branching out a little bit more from there.
Challenges in Law Practice
00:26:42
Speaker
But I would love to talk a little bit more about the sort of like, you know,
00:26:46
Speaker
the work itself, because you talked about this sort of triumphant story from when you were in the clinic, but as a person who, you know, family law is one of my areas, not so much immigration, but, you know, I always talk about family law as being, or I talk about family courts as being lawless places.
00:27:06
Speaker
because the kinds of things that happen in family court, particularly because so many clients don't have lawyers, some of the things that happen in family court are really unacceptable. And my sense is that in the immigration space, sometimes that can be the same way, right? Because if they're
00:27:22
Speaker
You know, I remember reading an article years ago about little kids being brought in for immigration judges, and they didn't have lawyers. Who does that? So, you know, it sounds like you're working in two practice areas that can be particularly thorny and difficult. So, you know, what is that like for you as a lawyer, as a practitioner? I mean, somebody who's skilled, obviously, but sometimes it's not about skill because you're in front of a judge who's like, I'm going to do what I'm going to do. Right, right.
00:27:51
Speaker
So I think with family law, what I appreciate a little bit more is that you kind of know, you kind of have like an outline of how a divorce case is going to go. You know what alimony is going to probably be, child support. There's a formula, you know, and the judges follow those and follow the case law. And so for the most part, you kind of know what you're going to get. What I don't like, of course, family law is very adversarial.
00:28:14
Speaker
Right. And it can get very, very immature. You deal with some attorneys that are just terrible to work on. Yeah. I like to say that there's nothing like the hate between two people who used to love each other. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's really bad. So that's the one thing with family law that I don't like too much. With immigration law, it's interesting. The attorneys are kind of like, we're all in it together. I mean, because we're all in this government machine.
00:28:44
Speaker
But immigration is just, I question myself every day why I'm still doing it. No, I wouldn't give it up, but it is very challenging because there is no real framework, you know? I mean, policies come in all the time that change everything so drastically during the Trump administration.
00:29:10
Speaker
While a lot of attorneys were out of work, I think family law was very busy. Family law and immigration were both very busy because we were getting policies almost weekly. I would get an email, this changed, this changed, this changed. And Attorney General Sessions was assigning cases. One of the big ones was he assigned a case where he took the asylum law and said, if you suffer domestic violence or gang violence, you can no longer apply for asylum. And that's the book of the cases.
00:29:37
Speaker
it just put all these people with applications who are already been, you know, five years submitted these applications, submitted expert reports and like now what do we do? So it's, yeah, it was, it was very challenging. It still is, you know, now we have this new thing. And it's, I don't know, I don't want to get too complicated, but you know, it's, it's called prosecutorial discretion. And basically that means that the government attorney can look at the case and say, well, this person isn't,
00:30:06
Speaker
a danger to the community or to the U.S., you know, we're going to terminate their case, right? And so at first, this was amazing. This was a great tool, right, that we were able to use for people and say, okay, great, can we get this case terminated? And they would, you know, this is recent. Now they're using that tool against us because now we have cases with really great asylum, right? Really great asylum claims, where if we go before the judge, you have a great chance at winning.
00:30:36
Speaker
But now the government is saying, well, they're not a danger to the US. We're going to terminate their case. And so when they terminate their case, they're removing them from immigration court. So they cannot get any, any kind of benefits. They can't get deported, but they can't get a work permit. They can never become a citizen because they are not in the system. They've removed the charges. And so now.
00:30:58
Speaker
attorneys from the bar saying, wait a minute, like we need to do something because if they have a great asylum claim, they should be able to file their application. Absolutely. But the court's position is, I don't have jurisdiction. If the government is removing the charges, I can't allow them to file because there's nothing before me. So now we're up against that. So and that's it's little things like that, that just continually happen, you know, yeah.
00:31:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's also sort of the contrast between family law and immigration law, right? Like family law is relatively static, right? There aren't usually these like huge upheavals in family law. Whereas with immigration, you get a new administration and all of a sudden, you know, the rules just completely go out the window.
00:31:45
Speaker
That just seems really hard to deal with that. And I think the other thing, and I want to ask you about this too, because I think we talk a lot about what lawyers do in court and how lawyers craft arguments and all of this kind of stuff. But so much of being a lawyer, especially in the kind of practice that you are doing, is about counseling clients. It's about how you build relationships with clients.
00:32:08
Speaker
sometimes about delivering really difficult news to clients. And I'm always really curious to talk to folks about how do you handle that side of the work, which I think often requires enormous amounts of both sympathy and empathy.
00:32:26
Speaker
And then on the other side of it, when things don't go the way that you wanted them to go or that the client wanted them to go, how do you not sort of take take on this sense of, oh, I have failed this person or sort of take on that loss in a very personal way? I will say I'm still learning how to do it. It's hard. It's hard. And I think I feel it.
00:32:49
Speaker
I definitely feel it more with with immigration because as you know, with family law, like you said, you know, we're seeing people on their work, good people on their worst day. Right. And so it's a little different. But with immigration law, like sometimes I've had to tell people I'm sorry, you're getting removed and they have an entire life here, kids here, you know, and it's just it's hard.
00:33:10
Speaker
Um, I remember one time I was, uh, in the trial, you know, we gave it all we got. And I, and it was one of those cases where, and you know, somebody said, I just thought you could, you could edit this out, but, um, if you want, but I just remember one of my mentors told me like, you know, when you've reached the point where, you know, like you've, you're an attorney is when, what is it, when you lose a case, you should have won and you want a case, you should have lost. Um, and so I had this case where I knew he should have won, you know, and I still to this day, like he had such a great case with such great evidence.
00:33:39
Speaker
And it was a father who was detained. He was in the computer screen. I had the mom behind me with the kids and the judge was reading off the decision and he was denying him asylum and he was detained. So he was definitely getting on a plane. You know what I mean? Like it wasn't like some people that get removal orders and stay. Like he was definitely not gonna be able to say goodbye. And so I see this grown man on the screen and he just starts crying and praying. Oh, wow.
00:34:07
Speaker
And I'm just sitting there and I have the mom and the kids and like, I can't cry, you know, but that's what I want to do. And I'm just like, just, you have to talk to yourself. Like, please keep it together. Like, don't, you know, you have to be strong for them. And it's hard because like, I'm still talking about it today, right? So it still affects me. So it's hard not to bring that home. But I think that that also means like you're empathizing with them. Like, it's real, you know, these are people's lives. Yeah.
00:34:35
Speaker
There's no way around it. Right. Right. And that's the thing. I mean, you know, it's one thing if you're representing, you know, some huge corporation, you know, and it's not even really about whether it's business or personal, right? Because you could be representing small business owners and for that it's super personal. But, you know, that being a lawyer is being in relationship with people.
00:34:59
Speaker
all the time and people who are looking to you to fix things for them. And that can be an enormous amount of pressure. So the other thing that I'm thinking about, you're basically a small business owner and what felt like overnight to a lot of us, the world just collapsed in these really dramatic, dramatic ways. How was that for you? I mean, you said there was an uptick in work actually in some ways for you.
00:35:27
Speaker
Um, but it feels like that must, that might've been really scary too, you know, even beyond what was already scary about it, but just like, all right, I've got a business that I have to be able to run. I have to, you know, the, the courts are shutting down and now I have to turn into a zoom lawyer. Right. I mean, it seems like it must've been, um, you know, a lot of things that you just had to juggle and make happen. Yeah, it was, um, it was definitely scary. I had two employees full time.
00:35:51
Speaker
One of them has kids, and it's like, wow, they're relying on me to pay their salary. They need to be able to live also. It was definitely scary, and it was a huge learning curve for me there. I definitely changed what my practice looked like, and I'm sure a lot of people did, but my stuff was not online. I was old school, I was taught old school, and so I taught old school. It was a big adjustment for me to get all my files, oh my goodness, all my files, scans, we got case management software,
00:36:20
Speaker
the billing and it was it was definitely challenging but I'm glad that it forced me to do that because it you know much more organized and again I will say and I know I've said this before but like the bar association again during that time was amazing even like the solo small firm committee like all of the bar leadership
00:36:41
Speaker
so many resources and tools that they gave out to make sure everybody was okay. And I was doing all the Zoom CLEs. Because you know, you're in that survival mode, like how can I make this work? But it was, it was very challenging. Yeah.
00:36:56
Speaker
So you just were talking about all the resources that were available because you are a part of these bar associations.
Networking and Community
00:37:04
Speaker
And there are so many bar associations, right? There's just like just the regular kind of New Jersey State Bar Association and then there are the sort of affinity groups for people from different communities and those bar associations. So how did you, so one, beyond the sort of resources and networking, are there other things that you would say are a good reason to be involved
00:37:24
Speaker
in these other organizations. And, you know, my sense, and tell me if I'm wrong, but my sense is that, you know, that you're not just, you know, somebody who shows up for the occasional meeting, right? Like you're somebody who really takes these organizations seriously and, you know, and somebody who wants to be a part of helping them to be successful. So, you know, what is it, again, beyond the sort of resources and the networking, you know, what are some of the things that you get from that experience?
00:37:50
Speaker
So I get I get a lot. One of the things for me was like representation matters. Right. And I can tell you that if not an affinity bar, the other bar associations that I'm involved in, I'm usually the only Latina in the room. And so that was really important for me. And it's something that I try to get other people that are out or law students like join these bar associations because they actually have a lot to do. They influence policies like in Germany.
00:38:18
Speaker
You know, in a lot of meetings, we'll get like some new rules, some new statute, and we'll spend an hour like debating and discussing and changing and recommending. So I think it's so important to be involved for that aspect. You know, you want to be able to give back to your community. That was huge for me. I do practice immigration family law, and I will say that like 90% of my clients are Latino. You know, so I want to focus on that. I want to be seen, you know, for that.
00:38:47
Speaker
So another thing is it makes you a better lawyer, you know, you're discussing these things, you're even the networking, you're exposing yourself to other attorneys in other areas of the law. You're able to get put in a position where you can be on CLEs. And again, like representation, right? And you also learn when you give CLEs, I always learn so much because you research the topic. You like research it to death.
00:39:12
Speaker
Um, so yeah, you do like, you know, you get to do speaking engagements, writing opportunities. Um, so I do, I really love, it's like a part-time job, but I love.
00:39:22
Speaker
love doing it. Yeah. Yeah. So I just I want to ask you just a couple a couple other questions and then I'm going to let you go because I know you're a busy person. So one is that you know you talked about the fact that you have two kids that your kids are actually quite young when you started school and then you graduated and you started a law firm and you know I'm not I'm never ever one of those people who says you know so you can have it all because nobody can have it all right. It's just it's just not a true thing.
00:39:52
Speaker
So I wonder for you, what have you been able to do in terms of creating a village or whatever it is that you've needed in order to be able to be as successful as you have been and then also be able to parent and to spend time with your kids and to travel with your kids, which I know you do a lot and that you love to do. How have you been able or what advice might you give to folks about how to organize your life in such a way that you can have a professional career but also have a personal life that you feel good about?
Balancing Career and Family
00:40:19
Speaker
Right. I think, um, you know, like you said, it's impossible to have everything balanced. Like I don't believe that's true at all. You're always going to have one ball on the ground. Um, and I think that it really is just a matter of prioritizing at that moment, what, what it is you need to focus your attention on. Um, and I think, you know, I've raised my children and I think you have to do that. If you want to do these things, like you have to let them know, like this is what I'm doing. This is important to me and involve them. Like, you know, I've brought my children to many events, which they actually love attending, exposing them to that.
00:40:49
Speaker
And also like don't be scared to ask for help. I think a lot of people try to like do everything on their own and that's when you fail. You need to ask for help, you know? Even as a mom and as an attorney, you know, if I can't, I've had moments as a solo practitioner where like I can't go to a hearing because I have to, you know, do something for my kids. And you call an attorney, like, can you cover this for me? Don't be scared to ask for an adjournment, you know? Just live their own lives too, you know, or you can't have families, they understand.
00:41:17
Speaker
Um, so don't, don't be scared to ask for help. Don't be scared to discuss like what's, you know, what's going on, communicate. Um, I think it's really important. And then also like mentorship, you had spoken about that too. Um, you know, I'm very fortunate and, and I, Hispanic Bar Association, right? Judge Melendez, Judge Garcia, um, a lot of attorneys,
00:41:35
Speaker
Go to them, talk to them. How does this work for you? Because they also have kids. How do they do it all? I always ask them, how are you at all these events? How are you doing this? Because they have kids and families. And so definitely do that. This was not the other question I was going to ask, so I still have to ask questions. Does it feel weird to you that you are now that person that law students are looking up to and emulating? And I wouldn't be her when I grow up? It's very weird. It's very weird.
00:42:05
Speaker
And it's funny that you asked that because I went to an event, I think it was last year, the summer mixer or whatever, and I had a law student coming up to me and I was telling her all these things and she said the same thing. She was like, but you know that you're like that now, right? Like I wanna be like you. And I was like, but it feels good because it's hard. I didn't have that growing up. And so to be that for someone, that feels amazing. It feels amazing, but it is weird.
00:42:32
Speaker
Yeah it's definitely it's yes yes but it is you know I hope that you also feel it as such a reflection of you know kind of the person who you are right because there are a lot of people who students wouldn't have a conversation with because they
00:42:47
Speaker
you know, would be intimidating or they, you know, wouldn't seem interested. Whereas, you know, I feel like you're, you know, you come back to events at the law school all the time, you're mentoring students. And I just think that that is such a, it's such a huge gift to the folks who come behind you. And as you said, representation matters. And, you know, the number of students, particularly our students of color, who I've talked to over the years, who say, I never met a lawyer who looked like me until I got to law school.
00:43:14
Speaker
I don't wanna hear those stories anymore. So it's so valuable that you are doing what you do. All right, last question.
Future Aspirations
00:43:23
Speaker
So you've already done so much, right? You have a successful practice, you're raising two great kids, you travel all over the world, you're involved in all these organizations. You are a rising star as named by New Jersey super lawyers for 2022.
00:43:40
Speaker
So what are your ambitions? What are you thinking about, okay, what's next for me? Where do I go from here? So I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm at year seven of practicing and I'm like, wow, I'm reaching that 10 year mark. I definitely want to, I have some goals. I definitely want to grow my firm. I do want to hire an associate, kind of free up more of my time. I want to write a book, possibly teach. So those are some things I'm kind of
00:44:18
Speaker
Well, Casey, thank you so much. It's always wonderful to talk to you. It's always wonderful to see you, although the people listening to this aren't able to see you. And I'm just so extraordinarily proud of what you have built for yourself and the lawyer that you have become. So it really makes me really happy that you chose Rutgers Law for your law degree.
00:44:35
Speaker
thinking about for the fut
00:44:41
Speaker
Thank you, thank you so much because you've also been one of my mentors in the law school for all the opportunities you guys have given me. I wouldn't be nervous about that, so I really appreciate it. The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations, minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige of reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.ruckers.edu.