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S4E07: From the NHL to Law School and Back to the NHL, with George McPhee RLAW'92
12 Plays1 year ago
George McPhee RLAW'92, President of Hockey Operations for the Vegas Golden Knights of the National Hockey League joins Co-Dean Rose Cuison-Villazor to share his experience applying his law degree to the world of professional hockey front office management.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Production Manager: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Introduction to The Power of Attorney Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello, this is Rose Guizanvilla-Zor. I am the interim co-dean of Rutgers Law School in Newark, and you are listening to The Power of Attorney, our podcast.
Meet George McPhee
00:00:20
Speaker
Today, I am joined by George McPhee, who is a president of Hockey Operations of the Vegas Golden Knights, the professional hockey team from Las Vegas. Importantly, for our purposes today, he is a graduate of the class of 1992 of the law school. George, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:00:38
Speaker
My pleasure. Thank you, Rose. So we like to start off these podcast interviews by talking about your origin story. And I think in your case, and I'm reading about your background, there are many different entry points that we can talk about. We can talk about how you yourself was a professional hockey player. We can talk about your management team, the experience, the work that you're doing now. Or we could also start somewhere in between when you started law school.
00:01:06
Speaker
But I'll leave it up to you. When you talk about your background origin story, where do you normally start?
From Hockey to Law School: George's Journey
00:01:15
Speaker
Well, I was in law school. It was a later in life decision for me. It wasn't early on.
00:01:25
Speaker
I'm sure you have some first-gen law school graduates, college graduates. I'm one of those. My parents didn't get to college. My brothers didn't get to college. I was lucky enough to go to college based on an athletic scholarship. My family didn't have the money to get me there. Graduated from college, played seven years pro, and near the end of my pro career, I was injured.
00:01:54
Speaker
didn't think I was going to be able to play again. I had time to think about what's next. And I was intrigued by law school and decided to try. And I loved college. I loved education. And I wanted another challenge. And it sure was a challenge. And it was the best decision I've ever made.
00:02:22
Speaker
That's so great to hear. Yes, we definitely have many students who are first gen, first gen in college, and also first gen in a professional school. The last numbers we saw, there were about 20, more than 20% of our students are first gen college, and then more than 50% are first gen in law school. So you are definitely an inspiration to many of our current students right now,
00:02:51
Speaker
I'm first gen myself. I'm an immigrant. And then when we move to this country, I'm the first to graduate college and then first to go to law school.
00:02:58
Speaker
Well, I'm an immigrant as well.
Path to US Citizenship
00:03:01
Speaker
I came from Canada, and I now have US citizenship, which was a big deal. Yes, yes. Me too. I became a citizen after law school, actually. Yeah, yeah, well, same with you. How did you, if you don't mind me asking, how did you, when I immigrated to the United States, it was through family, because under immigration law, one can
00:03:24
Speaker
one immigrates to the United States through either family or employment or diversity. And then the citizenship path is often based on those same tracks. So I became a citizen later in life after I've acquired enough years of being an immigrant and then a green card holder. So I was just curious about your path to citizenship.
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah, it was through employment. I obviously went to college in the US on the student visa. I went to Bowling Green State University and played hockey there and graduated in 82. And then I turned pro. And while I was with the New York Rangers, got a green card. And then several years later, when I was managing in Washington,
00:04:15
Speaker
managing the Washington Capitals. I just went online and applied for citizenship and was quick. Within a month or two, I got a call to come up and let's do a little civics test and let's interview you and went through that and they said, you know, we can swear you in this afternoon and boy, it was an
Navigating US Immigration Challenges
00:04:35
Speaker
emotional moment for me.
00:04:37
Speaker
when that happened as I'm sure it was for you. I think about my parents and geez, I'm gonna be a US citizen. It was a big deal in my life. And even a bigger deal in the neighborhood when I got home, the neighbors had all come over and one of the neighbors that baked a cake with a map of the US was the shape of the cake. It was pretty neat.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, I remember mine. I think now there's a long wait period to become a citizen. There's just the immigration, USCIS is overburdened with applications. But when I became a citizen, I think the wait was maybe less than a year. And I recall going into this big, in this building and there were
00:05:30
Speaker
hundreds of other people there who took the swearing, who swore, who became citizens with me. And I remember getting really emotional after that, and then went out to dinner with family and friends. And it felt, I mean, I've been in this country for a long time by them, but it wasn't until I, you know, I pledged allegiance as a US citizen that I, you know, emotionally, I felt so connected to this country. So I,
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah, and I love what you said about your path because I teach immigration law and for those who get visas on the employment side, that's really difficult to get. I mean, you have to be at the top. In your case, you're a professional hockey player, top of the game, and that's what it takes. It's hard to get
00:06:16
Speaker
these kinds of visas to begin with, and then whether it's a student visa or a work visa, and then even harder to actually get a green card. So I think your story actually highlights the challenges of how difficult it is to become an immigrant and to become a green card holder.
00:06:36
Speaker
Well, I was very, very fortunate to get the student visa, to get the green card and get citizenship. I'm aware of that. It's not that easy for many others, but it was and is a big deal in my life. A big deal of work and contribute in the United States.
00:07:05
Speaker
And then you decided to go to law school after you were on this path as a professional hockey player. And then you thought about where you would go next after you got injured. I'm curious
Law School Experience at Rutgers
00:07:21
Speaker
why law? You said you were fascinated by it. But what is it about legal studies that fascinated you?
00:07:28
Speaker
Well, in the summers, after I turned pro, I would return to Bowling Green
00:07:39
Speaker
where I graduated in 82, because it was a great place to train. We had all kinds of great facilities there. But I would also take classes. And I took some classes. I took a graduate level economics class and so on. And I just felt I wanted even more than that, more of a challenge.
00:08:04
Speaker
And I was just, again, intrigued by the law and
00:08:14
Speaker
And so I applied to some schools and Rutgers was really the right fit. I had another business going on in New York and so the proximity of the school and it all worked and it worked out really well.
00:08:39
Speaker
accepted and graduated. And again, it was a better decision, one of the better ones I've ever made, and it changed my life. Well, we're so glad that you did. You must know I'm going to ask you this question. What was your favorite, if you can remember, your favorite law school class when you were in law school?
00:09:06
Speaker
I seem to, you know, I liked labor law, I liked antitrust law probably because of the sports background. And right at that time, there was a lot going on between the NHL, the league and the Players Association. They were involved in some serious collective bargaining.
00:09:33
Speaker
For a number of years there, while I was in school, the Players Association had hired a new executive director, and the players were then really well organized and really challenging the league in ways that they never had before.
00:09:56
Speaker
And so I was intrigued by that whole process and I thought that when I went to school, could I return to hockey in some capacity?
00:10:08
Speaker
with a lot of green in my back pocket, that where I could be productive, could I work for the NHL for the league itself? Could I work for the Players Association? Could I work for a team? Could I represent players? So in just that little area, there were four different options. And as it turned out, I ended up working for a team immediately.
00:10:36
Speaker
And I've been very fortunate even though you get fired in this business. I haven't been without work. I've always worked for three different teams now. Yes, I was reading up on your background.
00:10:56
Speaker
you were with the Washington Capitals, right? You were also part of the Canucks, I think? Was that right? Yes, I started with the Vancouver Canucks right out of law school and then I actually had an opportunity to join the league after my first year in Vancouver to
00:11:16
Speaker
to work at the league offices and sort of be the second in command which was a really it was a big job. I didn't do it because I didn't think I was quite ready for that and so I stayed in Vancouver another four years then I had
00:11:36
Speaker
17 years of work in Washington as the manager, and then two years with the New York Islanders as an advisor. And this is my seventh year in Vegas. Yeah. So before you joined the Canucks, is this right, though, that you clerked for the International Court of Trade?
Internship and Career Insights
00:11:57
Speaker
Yes, so in terms of timing, was that immediately right after law school, you clerked there and then after that you went to, you joined the Canucks? No, it was, I would say it's more of an internship than a clerkship and I worked there in summer before my third year.
00:12:22
Speaker
Oh, I see. I see. Got it. Okay. Yeah. So it's interesting to me that you said that you were offered this job after law school, right? To basically be what did you say, the assistant general manager, but you felt that you weren't ready for that yet?
00:12:37
Speaker
It was a big job. It would have been the director of hockey operations for the national hockey league. So Gary Bettman is the commissioner. And, uh, at that time it was, it was probably, uh, yeah, the second, whatever you want to call it, most powerful job in hockey.
00:12:58
Speaker
And I really wanted to work for Commissioner Bettman. He's a lawyer and who has a phenomenal mind and does a great job with the league. It was a great interview process, but I just didn't think I had enough experience to be that guy at that time. To me, that's really impressive and amazing because
00:13:27
Speaker
I think it's important to engage in self-reflection and figure out, at least is what I tell my students, to go for as many opportunities as they can. But at the end of the day, when deciding which job or opportunity to take up, they need to
00:13:44
Speaker
They need to feel ready for that. They need to know that they can do it. And sometimes I tell my students, you know, don't sell yourself short. You can do it. But then there are other types of jobs that it does take a little bit more experience in order to feel good about that position and then be able to execute the job really well, right, effectively. So I think that story you just shared I think is just really amazing.
00:14:10
Speaker
Yeah, it wasn't an easy decision. I wrestled with it for a long time because you may not get another opportunity like that. But I just felt in my heart of hearts that I wasn't ready. You weren't ready yet. Okay, so we're going to fast forward to 2016.
Building the Vegas Golden Knights
00:14:34
Speaker
At that point, I think that you then became the general manager of the inaugural Las Vegas team, Golden Knights. I should confess first, I know nothing about hockey. Actually, I know very little about sports in general, but in preparing for our talk, I was just completely fascinated by the trajectory of your career and how in 2016, when you assembled your team, the team did very well.
00:15:02
Speaker
that year and that says a lot about you as a manager and knowing who to hire, how to build, who to hire, who to, as part of your management team rather, that's what I'm talking about. Because as a dean, most of the work I do works is with the administrative, the leadership team. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about what is your approach to management with respect to operations.
00:15:31
Speaker
Well, um, I, uh, wasn't really excited about, um, coming to Las Vegas because it was an expansion team. It's a brand new team and had a couple of employees under the owner. Uh, one guy selling tickets and a couple of people doing some odds and ends, but we basically had to hire everyone. Yeah. And, uh, you know,
00:15:58
Speaker
My objective with ownership was to say, let's make sure that we hire the best human talent in every single position we have in this organization. Whether it's an equipment manager, whether it's someone in sponsorship or marketing or players or coaches or someone in our broadcasts on television or radio, let's get the very best people
00:16:24
Speaker
out there. And they can be really talented, experienced people. And we needed a lot of those, but we can also hire the up and comers to the young people that show a lot of promise. And they all had to be low eagle, well educated, and really well willing to work. And that was, you know, that my experience in law school of
00:16:52
Speaker
You know, the work that has to go in it, the precision of the law in how you speak the law and how you write has stayed with me all these years.
00:17:04
Speaker
And I think, you know, our owner is a lawyer and he liked that I had a lot of degree. So, and I've always felt that, you know, the work ethic that you have to come up with and the way you're taught was really important in law school.
00:17:27
Speaker
But where it's really helped me the most is in hiring people, to take a look at that resume and understanding what they've studied and how great they are, and then meeting the person and making sure that the ego is in the right place. That really helped us here. And so I think I hired
00:17:55
Speaker
35 people in the first 50 or 60 days. It was... Wow. Oh my goodness. And we didn't have, you know, I really didn't have a support staff yet. You know, I've drafted a lot of the employment contracts myself. And, you know, it's in hockey, almost everyone
00:18:21
Speaker
from executive assistants to support staff. They're all under contract because what you find out in a hurry is if they're not under contract, somebody else comes and does put them under contract. It's a very good business.
00:18:37
Speaker
So anyway, we put it all together. It took a year before we were going to play. And so we had a year to put it all together. And we had to not only put the organization together, but we had to prepare for an expansion draft and for free agency and an entry draft, which is an extraordinary amount of work. And it all happens about the same time. So I was hired
00:19:02
Speaker
in mid-July and this was all happening late June, a year from then. And we really became a real, we're a progressive group, highly educated people and pretty sophisticated in the way we did things. And so we put it all together and we had the most extraordinary year
00:19:31
Speaker
that's ever happened in the modern sports era. We had a team that went to the Stanley Cup finals in its first year. Not only did we make the playoffs in a league of 31 teams, we went all the way to the finals. And that's never happened before. And the way I've had it described to me is lots of people have won the Stanley Cup, which is our championship. No one's ever done that.
00:20:00
Speaker
So it's kind of a neat thing to take an expansion team and go all the way to the Stanley Cup finals. Yeah, it's really inspirational the way that you built it from the ground up when you started. And you're there, now you're the president. What's the difference between the president, your current role, and the general manager? Because it sounds like you're still really the main person in charge of operations.
00:20:28
Speaker
Yes, we have, in the hockey business, we have, you know, you have your business side. And we, I was with the owner when we interviewed people to be the president of business operations. So we went all through that and we got a great person and made that hire. And my position was president of hockey operations and general manager. And the general manager in hockey is a very unique position. It's a very, very powerful position. And
00:20:58
Speaker
I was, after our second year, willing to give up that position because the assistant general manager who I had hired had done a very good job for our organization. Other teams were interested in hiring him. I wanted to keep it all together, keep our group together, so I was willing to give up that position to him and just stay in the president's role.
00:21:27
Speaker
So the general manager, we do a lot of things together. We have breakfast every morning with the players. We have lunch together every day with the players. We travel together all the time. We deal with all of the players, the personnel, the scouting, hiring, making decisions on players, making decisions for the team.
00:21:50
Speaker
And he deals with the media and negotiating with other GMs, with other teams and trades and so on. And I'm here with him, sort of advising him on what we should do next or listening to what he wants to do next and really to make it work best.
00:22:17
Speaker
he's got to make some hard decisions. And I will give him my opinion, but if he still wants to do it, he does it and I support him. And that's how we've worked. And since giving up that position, I'm a little more involved on the business side.
00:22:33
Speaker
I see. That's really helpful. Thank you for explaining that and simplifying it for me. As you were talking, I think an analogy for that in the law school administration context would be there's a dean and then there's a vice dean and the dean works much more closely with advancement and development of business side and trying to
00:22:54
Speaker
reach out to different donors and try to bring money into the law school as the Vice Dean helps to run the internal operations of the law school. So that's how, in my mind, that's how I'm understanding it. I know it's so much more complicated in your line of work, but it helped me to the way that you broke it down like that.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah, and as you learn, you can't be in two places at one time. And so it's really helpful to have a couple of people that who can, for example, our general manager is traveling to the East Coast with the team. I go on most of the trips, but there is a
00:23:35
Speaker
a game in Vancouver tomorrow night, I think it is, or Wednesday, that has all the top prospects around the country playing in that game sort of as a showcase so we can scout them. So I'm going that way and he's going east with the team.
00:23:51
Speaker
Yeah, so it's a team effort. And it sounds like you have a pretty close, a tight-knit group of people that you work with. And I see that as that kind of collaboration seems to be what is working for you and for your
Management Philosophy and Team Dynamics
00:24:11
Speaker
team. And that's really great to hear.
00:24:13
Speaker
Well, just to finish this, I have a very participative style of management, not a lot of hierarchy.
00:24:26
Speaker
on the hockey side of things have, you know, everybody in our front office is basically involved in all the decisions. So they understand what's going on and even the young people that work sort of in our war room preparing things for us, they get to listen to all these discussions and they learn a great deal doing that and then after a while they start asking questions or making comments and contributing and now they're in a good place.
00:24:56
Speaker
That's interesting, the collaborative participatory approach. That's a style of management that I've read about in other contexts, in business, in higher education. One of the downfalls of that is that there are too many people involved. At some point, someone has to make a decision though. Have you found some of those challenges?
00:25:17
Speaker
That one expression is a donkey is a horse that was put together by a committee. But I think we have the right number of people. And when it comes to the hockey decisions, that's where the manager has to... We usually get there in the right way, but every once in a while,
00:25:42
Speaker
he has to go in and shut the door and make a hard decision. So that's the way we've done it. But that's after a real comprehensive and exhaustive discussion with all of us. And then if we're not there, if we haven't gotten to that point, then he'll have to go for a walk and make a tough decision, and I'll support him.
00:26:07
Speaker
I imagine when you were general manager and also in your other management experience that you two have had to make some of those tough decisions, right? And so can you talk about one that you're, are you free to talk about anyone that really just that you wrestled with and how you reach, what was the process for you in addressing that particular conflict that you had to make a hard decision about?
00:26:33
Speaker
Well, it's hard because there are so many, we have to make so many different decisions. Like who do we draft this year? When we get to the draft, we had the number one pick overall when I was in Washington. And obviously you want to draft the best player.
00:26:49
Speaker
And the year that we have the number one pick overall, we drafted a player by the name of Ovechkin and he is going to be the greatest goal scorer in the history of the game pretty soon. He's not good. It's never an easy decision and you're with your amateur staff and you just, you know, there's the
00:27:09
Speaker
Qualitative and the quantitative process you go through. You have your analytics where you do all the math behind a decision like that. The numbers that are produced. Based on what he's doing on the ice. I never thought that could be done in hockey. It was done in baseball.
00:27:26
Speaker
Um, but there's also the, you know, just the eye test of watching this player play, uh, beyond all the numbers and who's the right guy for our team. It's never an easy decision, but it's not an emotional decision. Like some other things are where you have to trade a player who you like personally, who's been with your team a long time. Those are the hard ones, uh, for me. Um, um, but philosophy has always been the, uh,
00:27:54
Speaker
the organization comes first and the individual comes a close second. And you just, if it's gonna make your organization better, you have to do it. You can't look the other way. And so you trade someone who, you know, they're like your kids. You draft them at 18, you work with them, you develop them. They become players for a long time. And sometimes when they're 31 or 33 or 35,
00:28:22
Speaker
They're starting to age out and you have to make a move. And it's a hard thing to do when you're really fond of the individual. So those are the processes we go through.
00:28:34
Speaker
Yeah, and thinking about what is in the best interest of the organization. And that resonates, I think, with many other industries. Law firms, for example, partners, the managing partners have to make a decision about what's in the best interest of the law firm, whether to expand to another city or to another country, merge with another law firm, or I'm thinking of
00:29:00
Speaker
public interest organizations, right? How many more staff attorneys to hire because of changing laws that require your additional support for marginalized populations to get direct representation. So it is hard when there are these connections with your teams and other players and other members of your team versus
00:29:26
Speaker
thinking about them, the connections with them, and also the larger organizations. So those are tough, and its decisions have to be made. I see that. Yep. And we have one element that you probably don't have to deal with, and that is a fan base. We have season ticket holders and sponsors and people that just love watching the game and love your team.
00:29:52
Speaker
That's also an element that you have to factor in. Trading someone that is really popular with a team is not easy. If it's the right thing to do for the organization, if you think your organization will be better as a result,
00:30:16
Speaker
you're going to take a lot of criticism for that trait. And I have in the past. It's not easy. On the other hand, I've heard the expression if you're listening to the fans all the time, you're going to be sitting with them one day. So there's lots of things to factor in. Yeah, yes, it does. It's fascinating to me to hear you speak because a lot of what you're saying
00:30:46
Speaker
I can see how it does apply. Even in the classroom, so professors, for example, we get our student evaluations. I've just received that the student evaluations from the fall semester, I'm looking through everybody, professors and how students rank them. Professors in the classroom also have to make these hard choices about, do I teach a class that
00:31:12
Speaker
that they know maybe the style might not be one that many students would appreciate, right? If you recall the Socratic method and how for many students that's anxiety producing or do some, or engage in a different kind of pedagogical approach that would be, it's just different, but might be more supportive of students. And then at the end, there are these evaluations. And for law professors, we talk about how much do we listen to those numbers and those comments.
00:31:43
Speaker
So there's no similar expression of one day you're going to be a fan, but it is that kind of thoughtful approach to how do you change a decision or how do you make a decision within the classroom, how to teach a course, what to teach a course. It does get informed by feedback from students.
00:32:01
Speaker
Yeah, and I can imagine that the professor has to figure out what's the best way to teach this course, where they will maximize their learning and be able to take it with them.
00:32:19
Speaker
And then actually perform, walk into that class and do it. Up in front of a number of students, whether it's a small class or a big lecture, but you've got to perform as well. And it's not unlike, we try to come up with a way to win and what's best for our organization. And then when we show up at the arena,
00:32:48
Speaker
with our product, there's 18,000 people in the arena expecting a win. And you've got to deliver, you've got to perform. And not every class that the professor teaches or game that we play goes the way you want it.
Law School's Role in Career Preparation
00:33:06
Speaker
But in our business, the more you win, the less you get fired.
00:33:16
Speaker
You have to be good and professors obviously have to be good or it's not going to work out for them either. Right, right. So for those of us who teach upper level courses, then the reputation that we get in teaching our first year courses
00:33:31
Speaker
ends up affecting how many people enroll in our classes. I mean, there are some classes that are upper level courses that are required for the bar exam, for example, evidence, business association, and business organization. And those typically get a big enrollment because it's on the bar exam. But there are other courses. I teach immigration law, for example, and I teach property laws in my first year course.
00:33:55
Speaker
I'm not teaching right now because of teaching those courses because I'm the interim dean. But in the past, I know that many of the students who signed up for my immigration law class are the ones who liked my property law class. And so there is this kind of not a fan base, but definitely the students who liked the way I taught my class followed me to my upper level courses. There's a connection there.
00:34:23
Speaker
And Jesus, the first time I had a class with this professor, I learned a lot, like the way it was taught, and so willing to do it again. Yeah, exactly. And that must be fun for you. Well, it is fun when I see them in the first day. It's like, oh, hey, good to see you again. I'm glad that you're in this class. It is fun.
00:34:46
Speaker
Were there some courses from law school that you enjoyed more than others? Were there particular courses? Other than, I mean, labor law, antitrust law. Was there anything else that you liked? Oh, yeah. Contract law was tough, but absolutely necessary for the business that I'm in now.
00:35:14
Speaker
Again, I was, you know, when I first joined the league, as I said, there was, you know, we had a very difficult time with the Players Association because they were, they had a new leader and they were pushing back on everything. And our, you know, Gary, our new commissioner had come on, but there were a lot of things that had to be cleaned up.
00:35:42
Speaker
with the league. We had to get to another level. And we had a standard form contract with the league between the player and the club, but it was full of holes and all kinds of addenda could be drafted and all kinds of bonuses and other things put into these contracts that made no sense. And it was really good that I knew something about contract law when
00:36:12
Speaker
in that situation because there are just a lot of things that I didn't want to draft and didn't want to put into contracts and we did a pretty good job with it. But now, all these years later, it's
00:36:27
Speaker
These things are all buttoned down. But it was difficult then. And I was the first guy to take a player to salary arbitration. The mechanism was in the CBA, but it wasn't being used. The players were reluctant to go to salary arbitration with the club for fear of being traded or not signed at all.
00:36:53
Speaker
Um, and, but, uh, again, under the new director of the players association, um, we were, the players were starting to file. And I told the players, if you file for arbitration, we're probably going, we're probably going to go to arbitration. And, um, and we did, and I was the, we were the first club to do it and I was on my own and, uh,
00:37:18
Speaker
There was a lot to that, you know, going to the seller arbitration and it worked well for our club, which is why I think I got the offer from the league to join the league after that. But the contract law really helped in that regard. Con law was really
00:37:47
Speaker
Kind of neat given that I grew up in Canada and here I am trying to understand what goes on in this country and things have developed. Yeah, criminal law, criminal procedure, you know,
00:38:04
Speaker
liked all those courses. I, you know, it was for a guy that was just reading sports pages, you know, for seven years as a pro and a few books here and there. It was a big change for me to jump into law school. And it wasn't easy. And it shouldn't be. But I, I
00:38:28
Speaker
There's a dark side of it. I enjoyed the process. I enjoyed learning. I enjoyed what the challenge was. At that time, it was an intellectual challenge and sort of a perseverance challenge, unlike what I was doing in professional hockey, which was all, your body is your asset. You've got to be a good thinker, but you could...
00:38:57
Speaker
physical willpower changed the course of a game or a shift or a play, or as a law school, it's your brain. That's your real asset. And so it was a real contrast in experiences for me. Do you happen to remember who your constitutional, no, your contracts professor was?
00:39:23
Speaker
Oh, professor. I'll never forget him. Professor star. He called on the number of times and twisted, twisted me and knots and everything else. And he was, he was an impressive guy. And he was, he was hard and hard on everybody. He
00:39:41
Speaker
You had butterflies when you walked into that class, but it worked. You had to be prepared. You had to do the work. So it was a great lesson in life for what's required and what's expected.
00:40:03
Speaker
Yeah, no, I mean, law school is, that's, when I explain, when I go to these info session for college students and explain why I go to law school, what law school, how law school is different from undergrad studies, I talk about the type of teaching the students, the professors do the Socratic method, but also I said, from my experience, I had to be prepared, I had to know the readings,
00:40:30
Speaker
cold because I could get called on at any time. And not the professors were mean about it, but they had such high expectations of me and I wanted to take, I took law school seriously, right? And I see that in our students and that is what it takes to succeed. You have to, one has to take classes seriously, study, prepare for the, read the cases and you don't have to understand the cases
00:40:58
Speaker
right away because law school is hard, but you come to class knowing, be at least prepared to talk about those cases. Absolutely. And I, you know, what you learn is, you know, you become a real self starter because if you're practicing law someplace and someone's got a question, you've got to find the answer for them. You know, you've got to, you can't rely on other people.
The Importance of Self-Reliance
00:41:25
Speaker
Um,
00:41:27
Speaker
because these people are relying on you. So if you want to be able to help, if you want to be able to, if you want to be good at what you do, you've got to put the work in. You've got to understand it. And again, that was, that was just, I thought it was a phenomenal education to work through all that reading, to be able to prepare for class every day,
00:41:57
Speaker
was hard day after day after day. It's hard. It was a grind. But the benefits of doing that, as I said, and I said at this at the gala, it stays with you the rest of your life. If you want to be productive and do the right things and be successful in the right ways, however you define success,
00:42:25
Speaker
You've got to put the work in, and I try to outwork everybody else. I know that there are some of our current law students right now who will be listening to this. And you said the words grind, challenging law school. And it is. What got you through those hard years while you were in law school?
00:42:50
Speaker
It's interesting, there was a moment before I explained how you get through, and it's usually finding the right study groups and so on. But I remember we were always six or eight weeks in, and it was a Sunday night, and I was studying at home.
00:43:11
Speaker
And I felt like I was getting behind, and I just felt that, geez, can I really do this? I'll never forget that night, because it's like, geez, can I keep going on this?
00:43:29
Speaker
And I thought a couple of times, maybe I can't. Maybe I should just not do this. And it was hard to admit. And I thought, you know what? By the end of the night, I said, you know, I can't quit. I can't quit. I can't do that. You ought to find a way.
00:43:48
Speaker
And then it was just the persistence, the dedication, the commitment, finding the right study groups and doing the work. And you find out that, as they often said to us, at one point, the light's going to come on as to how law school works. And because you go to class and the professor isn't telling you anything, he's asking a lot of questions, but he's sure not telling you anything. You've got to sort it out for yourself.
00:44:18
Speaker
And that's a different kind of process than you learn when you're in college. You're doing your undergrad work, or they're throwing everything out there for you. And it usually, by the end of that first semester, say, okay, I think I'm getting this. And then the second semester, you're much better prepared for how to do it, even though
00:44:46
Speaker
the courses are different. It's the how that matters that you've sorted it out. And you read these, you read all these cases and they're all chopped up and they're, you know, you're trying to figure out what, well, what am I taking out of this one and that one? But you sort it out after a while. That's really helpful advice, all of that. I think that's, those are kernels of wisdom that our students need to hear from
00:45:13
Speaker
such an accomplished alumnus like yourself, George. I think we're at the top of the hour now. I've really enjoyed talking with you. I appreciate the time you've given us.
00:45:29
Speaker
I hope that we'll be able to see each other again. I do go to Vegas once in a while. I'd love to come out there and watch a game. It'll be so fun. If you want to come out here, come to the game as my guest and you'll enjoy it because it is Vegas.
The Vegas Golden Knights' Unique Atmosphere
00:45:51
Speaker
We put on a show here.
00:45:53
Speaker
We've sold out every game since we started and it's just a fantastic experience to be in our building. It is a show, in addition to the hockey game, there's a show that goes on. And our fans, you know, it's a town that's based on hospitality. It's a hospitality town and our fans are wonderful to everyone that come to the game. Everybody seems to have fun.
00:46:22
Speaker
You can come and enjoy. I will sit through the game and be stressed for about two and a half hours. And then when the game's over, I can exhale.
00:46:34
Speaker
And because that's the way it goes. That's the way it goes. Yeah. All right. And thank you very much for having me. This was, it's a different kind of interview than I've experienced in this business. And because it's different and it's something I was familiar with through law school, it was neat. Thank you.
00:46:55
Speaker
Actually, George, I should be the one thanking you. You're a very busy man and for you to make time for us. It says a lot about you. I've learned in the one hour we've been together, you're a very humble person. You're thoughtful, you're humble, and it makes me proud as the Dean to talk to you and hear about your accomplishments.
00:47:20
Speaker
Thanks for being an inspiration to all of us. My pleasure. I guess I'd like to add one comment, and that is for the students that you might have listening. The one thing about the sports business that people don't understand and may not realize, but you said it in terms of how busy we get, we're in the entertainment business.
00:47:43
Speaker
And so you're not only building a product, but we play almost every other night, we play on weekends, we play on holidays. And so the job is really you have your daytime job of keeping your organization going and then
00:47:59
Speaker
You're working at night too because you're either your team's playing or you're watching another team play or you're scouting another player, other players. These jobs are really incredibly
00:48:15
Speaker
time consuming and can come sometimes for some people at a great personal cost because you don't get to spend as much time with your family as you'd like to. I've been very fortunate. My family is stuck together, happily married, three kids, and they're all doing fine. But there is a price to pay if you're getting into sports management, that sort of thing, and they should understand that.
00:48:44
Speaker
But I wouldn't change it for anything because it doesn't feel like work to me. I feel very fortunate to be able to get up every day and come here as you are excited every day when you get up to go to law school. You've got a little adrenaline going and we've got to do this today, we've got to get this done. And it's a fascinating, really enlightening experience.
00:49:14
Speaker
Thank you. I'm so glad that you mentioned that. In law school, we try to inform our students, we talk to them about the importance of quality balancing your work life and personal life and what quality of life would look like. And the practice of law, whether it's in the sports and entertainment industry or public interest, government, law firm, there are many different challenges all around.
00:49:40
Speaker
It's good to know what that is like by talking to people like you and others who have that experience and to see how they did it. They're going into a field with their eyes wide open to get some experience.
00:49:58
Speaker
Hopefully love the job because we the law is hard to love sometimes that the law is Yeah, it's good to love your job. Yeah. Yeah and and I've enjoyed hiring good young lawyers who have you know practice for a few years and then you know our
00:50:24
Speaker
They're good young lawyers and they've proved it, and this is a change to come into the sports business. But they're really effective for us. They've been very productive, whether it's negotiating contracts or managing our salary cap, that sort of thing. The young people that are legally trained are valuable. They help us a lot.
00:50:54
Speaker
Fantastic. That's great to hear. The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers a prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.ruckers.edu.